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A show about cameras, creativity, and the weird shit your brains do while you're trying to make something.
Together, we're exploring photography for all levels — asking the silly questions, sharing the expert knowledge, and digging into what it actually takes to grow as a human being and as an artist.
S02 E03 - Focus on Reading the Photo
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Amy (she/her): you don't learn the rules so you can break them and just use that as an excuse for bad photography.
there has to be a reason,
There are consequences for how your viewer interprets that photo, based on what choice you made in how you compose it,
if you just are randomly breaking rules and you don't understand why or understand what that's doing to the story in your photo, then we need to have a conversation. You might think photography's all about the technical stuff, the gear, the settings. Some of it is, and we'll get into it. But the harder part is what your brain and nervous system do the second you try to make something. The overthinking, the voice that swears you're getting it all wrong. Some weeks we're deep in the craft, some weeks we're deep in your head.
Either way, it's less about the camera and more about the person holding it. Welcome to this week's episode of The Focus Trap.
[00:00:48] The Rule of Thirds Isn't Actually a Rule
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Casey (she/her): So one of the things I'm realizing about photography gonna teach me today is all of the rules I'm supposed to be following. Because I keep hearing about this rule of thirds. I was actually, right before we got on this recording, looking at an Instagram post about the rule of thirds, and they were talking about some other rules, but I got distracted by the rule of thirds. Um, what are the rules and how do I follow them?
Amy (she/her): You, you may have stepped in it this time
Casey (she/her): Uh-oh
Amy (she/her): no, not in a bad way. 'Cause you are not alone. if this was like, a game of word association and you say photography, one of the things that inevitably would probably come up is rule of thirds, things that are associated with photography.
I do not like talking about things as rules in photography, because when you call it a rule, that implies that there is one right way to do it, and that is, the only way to do it. And not every photo is structured according to rule of thirds. not every photo should be structured according to rule of thirds.
and so I try to get away from that as quickly as possible,
It used to be when I was teaching, beginners a lot more, I would introduce rule of thirds as a place to start and then try and move them away from that as quickly as possible. And I was talking to, Brian Hansel, who's a, a Minnesota-based landscape photographer, who taught me landscape composition.
I was saying to him, I use rule of thirds because it's a, an easy way to get people to stop putting things in the middle of the photo. Because that, that's what happens. that's the biggest use for rule of thirds, is getting people to stop putting everything in the middle of their photo.
Casey (she/her): So he... And he looks at me and he says, why don't you just tell them not to put things in the middle of the photo?" And if anybody knows Bryan Hansel, that is such a, that is Bryan to a T. duh, why don't you just tell him to stop putting things in the middle? so yeah, that's what I- the, and I did make that shift.
Amy (she/her): I, I still talk a little bit about rule of thirds because everybody's heard of it, but I try and shift very quickly into let's just talk about not putting the most important thing in the middle of the photo. and there are reasons for that, and we can, uh I could do a two-hour lecture here. I don't think either one of us has the time for that.
Casey (she/her): No.
Amy (she/her): a class is for. We're not, that's not what we wanna do here.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): but what is actually interesting about the rule of thirds, I did do a little digging one time unrelated to the Bryan Hansel situation. I did do a little digging about why it exists. Why do we have this rule that seems a little arbitrary?
there's no clear cut, here's the history of rule of thirds. But the, the one th- piece I found was that it's a convenient way to keep people from putting things in two spots that they probably shouldn't be. So we already talked about don't put the most important thing in the middle of the frame.
The reason for that is oftentimes you end up cropping things awkwardly at the bottom or even the top. It also is a very, we're naturally drawn to the center of the image. And so if you put the most important thing there, then we get stuck there, and we don't explore the rest of the image and look at what else it has to offer.
So it's a very static place to put something. If you want your photo to be about stability and a static scene and groundedness, then it actually isn't a terrible place to put it. But you have to do it intentionally, not just because that's where the focus point is in your viewfinder, which is kind of the default place for a focus point in the viewfinder.
But then around the edge of photos is also dangerous territory. the current analogy would be if you're posting like a reel or on, on Instagram or a, a video on TikTok, there are safe places and not safe places to put stuff because we've got all these little icons down the side, and we've got the stuff along the bottom.
So if you put something important in one of those areas, then it's covered up and we don't see it, or we have to really go hunting for it. So the rule of thirds kind of establishes that same idea. Put things on these four points, on one of these four points, and then you aren't too close to the edge, and you're not too close to the center.
So that's kind of the safe zone is really the way to look at Go ahead
Casey (she/her): also recently about, turning things into print. And some of these dog portraits, like I have a particular shot that I really liked how it came out, but it's cropped way too tight, so I'm like, "That can't be printed on anything with a wrapped edge or that's gonna have any kind of like border frame on it," because you're gonna lose part of the image.
Amy (she/her): Which I'm gonna go back and fix in post and Right. There are ways to get around that.
Casey (she/her): but
Amy (she/her): of those like I know... I hadn't even thought about the context of rule of thirds, but I'm already thinking about like when I crop something, making sure that there's this buffer space for
Угу
Casey (she/her): canvas or into a frame or something like that.
Amy (she/her): Exactly. Print tolerances. we used to print things a whole lot more. digital has changed all that. But you think about, even like Polaroids have the little border around them, and that's, a really easy way to make sure that everything that's important is visible because it's not too close to the edge of the picture.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): yeah, so it's got a purpose and that perhaps is its history, is it was just a, a way to define safe areas in the photo. And, I'm sure it's more than that, So that kind of supports the whole, just tell them not to put anything important in the middle of the frame.
So don't put anything important in the middle, and don't put anything important right on the edge. that's a better way to articulate the, if you wanna call it a rule, we'll let that go. But, this, this knee-jerk application of rule of thirds isn't useful. once you know more than just the bare essentials of photography, that should go into a big, giant bucket of other things about composition that is pulled out when you need it or if you want it, if that's what your goal is.
But it is not the be-all, end-all that everybody talks about it
Casey (she/her): Right. Okay. So that's so interesting. I'm glad that you, did go into the history of it a little bit
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): it always gets talked about as a, composition rule, but in terms of, that's how a photo flows, it's talked about in that structure, not don't chop off the edges when you print it, you know?
Amy (she/her): Right.
Casey (she/her): like,
Amy (she/her): Right
Casey (she/her): different goals. I do like it as a beginner to give me that idea of, like, where is this? I,
Amy (she/her): Right
Casey (she/her): like I could find the balance better in a photo if I pull the dog over to, one of those sides, So it helps me see the balance, but I'm also, not worried mostly 'cause I'm learning from you, and I already knew that the rule of thirds has a giant caveat on it.
I also don't feel like I have to make sure that the dog's face is, perfectly on one of those four points or something like that. But I do like it for a quick, okay, if I'm cropping, let's look at it and kinda make sure there's a little bit of balance here in the crop, and then
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): it's always talked about as, artistic composition, and that's not
Amy (she/her): Which...
Casey (she/her): necessarily the case. Or it doesn't need
Amy (she/her): doesn't always need to be the answer. There are other forms of
Um, yes. it can be used in artistic, application. you can use it to talk about the artistic flow in an image, but it's not the only one out there, and it's not a rule that, you must follow to the T or it doesn't work.
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): but when people get pedantic about using rule of thirds,to the detriment of the flow and the feel and the balance of an image, that's when I get irritated. So if it's the best choice for your image, then by all means. But it's so often not the best choice. in fact, I saw a YouTube video recently.
I wish... I'm gonna have to go back through my history and see if I can track it down. And they, the guy on it was talking about how these rules and these guidelines,whether it's rule of thirds, rule of triangles, whatever, are not meant to be used to structure the image initially. They're meant to be applied afterwards to, as a way to describe the structure of the photo.
they're descriptive, not meant to prescribe what the photo should look like. They're meant to describe how the photo is. So that's another way where it's not a rule.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): I have done this naturally. One of the hardest things for me to teach is balance and visual flow because it comes very naturally.
It's one of those things that sits in my gut and I go, "Yep, that's balanced, that's not." And if you ask me, I will have to pull out something like rule of thirds or rule of triangles or whatever it is and use it to describe what I'm feeling.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): so I have to always reverse engineer my photos to explain what I use.
But I'm not using it to crop the photo, I'm using it to describe how I have cropped the photo. So I flip that. I have always flipped that around. Now, not everybody feels composition in their gut, so that's where these things can be useful. The overlays where you can see how things are arranged. I will sometimes use it to, s- not just rule of thirds, but any of those overlays you can get in Lightroom and Photoshop to go, "Okay, I, I'm having trouble with this photo.
I can't find the balance, so let me just use one of these to see if I shift it and match it up with one of these overlays. Maybe that'll give me a hint about the direction to take it." but I don't worry about landing exactly on that intersection of the two, two of the third lines in rule of thirds.
Casey (she/her): Yeah. Okay. That's what the, I, if you could see the wheels turning in my brain there, is like I'm starting to feel it in my gut. I have one of my photos from this model call that I did last weekend
every time I look at it I'm like, it's cute, but something's a little bit off in it. And so I love
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): like being able to go back and okay, now instead of trying to force it into rule of thirds or the triangles, whatever, is like use that as okay, maybe that could help me diagnose why it's off or give me the direction that I could shift it, it using it as a, reactive tool instead
Amy (she/her): diagnosis rather than a...
Yeah, I really Yeah
Casey (she/her): like I said, there's, I'm starting to get that once in a while. And it's things that you've pointed out, but now I see it and I'm like,
Amy (she/her): उहं।
Casey (she/her): crowded," or, "This
Amy (she/her): दे।
Casey (she/her): I'm like, "But I can't quite put my finger on what's wrong with this one," you
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): yeah. Okay. Yeah. That's an interesting way to think about it.
[00:11:15] What the Eye Gets Drawn To
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Amy (she/her): and it's all psychology. composition and post-processing, the... what we do with post-processing that isn't fixing our image, which we've already had a podcast about fixing images, we won't go back to that. But once we get to the point where we can actually enhance our photos, this i- this is all just making use of how our brains react to visual stimulation.
and so the idea of we are naturally drawn to bright things over dark things.
we're drawn to texture over smooth. We're drawn to, um, sharp things over not sharp things. This is why sharpness, this is why I'm such a sharpness freak a- about my photos, is I know that the sharpest part of an image is where my e- eye is naturally gonna be drawn. So if the wrong thing is the sharpest part,
It has moved the viewer to a part of the image that I don't want them paying as much attention to.
Casey (she/her): it's wild how subtle that is too. I went back and looked at some of my first dog photos that I took, the, the focus is, on the shoulder instead of the eyes, and we're talking such a shallow depth of field kind of difference. But I'm like, "Oh, these don't look as good as I thought they did two months ago."
Amy (she/her): Yes.
Casey (she/her): I'm seeing my
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): settling the right way on the photo because the sharpness
Amy (she/her): Угу
Casey (she/her): spot, so my eyes want to go to the dog's eyes, but the dog's eyes aren't in focus, and
Amy (she/her): Yes
Casey (she/her): photo feels off now.
Amy (she/her): This is one of those things that I love. People have a love-hate relationship with me pointing it out when they work with me, because once you start seeing it, you can't unsee it. But I also am a f- such a fanatic about it that I can find the sharpness in areas in photos, and people will go, "What?
How did you see that?"
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): yeah, it's just, it's a thing. It's, m- maybe we'll call it my special interest is finding the sharpest place in a photo.
Casey (she/her): His superpower?
Amy (she/her): it also means I'm re- it is my superpower, my teaching superpower. But it also means that I can help you find, I can help you develop those skills in order to figure that out so you can do it for yourself.
it's like color balance. It's like white balance. I was not seeing the white balance very well in my photos when I first started out, and, a friend of mine who works for a portrait photographer, every time she would see me, she'd poke at me. She'd be like, "Amy, your photos are blue.
Amy, your photos are blue. Amy, your photos are blue." and she was very nice about it,
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): she, had the credentials to back it up. she knew what she was talking about. It wasn't just random person saying, "Oh, these look blue." No, she was legit. and eventually I did start seeing it for myself,
she didn't tell me anything more than just, "Your photos have a blue cast to them."
Casey (she/her): I had to just pay attention and pay attention, I, and I finally started to see it, and now I can do that for others, to go, hey, you got a blue cast in your photos."
Amy (she/her): but it's the same thing with sharpness. It, I didn't need anyone to point it out to me, but it is something I got better at seeing the more I did photography,
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): the more photos I took. And, I go back and look at some of my old stuff, and maybe I should pull some out of the archives and go and let everybody see them, because I, believe me, I,
Casey (she/her): right
Amy (she/her): there's a lot of stuff that I made prints of or sold that these days I would be like, "What the fuck were you thinking?"
Casey (she/her): I
Amy (she/her): in the
Casey (she/her): only imagine for you because I've only been, like, doing dog portraits for, a couple of months, and I can
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Casey (she/her): intentionally, I was like, I knew this was gonna happen 'cause I've learned new things enough times that, I have a folder that's labeled, first time I've ever shot with studio lights because I wanted to be able to come
Amy (she/her): OK。Yeah。
Casey (she/her): still my wallpapers on my computer 'cause I haven't
Amy (she/her): Okay
Casey (she/her): I like more. But I'm like, I was so enamored with these photos. I'm like, "Oh my God, this is the best thing ever." And I look back at them now and I'm like, that one's green, and that one doesn't have a catch light in both eyes, and that one's focused on the shoulder,
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): eyes."
And I'm like, you know what? I'm still proud of them. I still love
Amy (she/her): Угу
Casey (she/her): my wall- my wallpapers on all three monitors,
[00:15:19] Get Down to Dog-Feet Level
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Amy (she/her): So that's sharpness, and that's about contrast between softness and sharpness. there are other kinds of contrast as well. there's, the contrast of how we normally would view a scene and the angle that we decide to use when we're taking the photo.
So when I'm working with people that are doing dog portraits, I like to tell them, "Put the camera down at the level of the feet of the dogs." usually the way it's said is put the camera at the eye level of your subject.
But when you're talking about dog portraits, it's even better, you get even more impact if you get it all the way down to the level of their feet, whether they're lying down or sitting up. because then you give them this, this gravity, this presence in the photo that we never see when we're either standing or even just sitting on the ground next to them.
If you can get your eye level all the way to the ground level, and this is why mirrorless cameras with their flip-out screens are so amazing because you can get the camera all the way down and you don't have to get your eye all the way down there.
Casey (she/her): Yes
Amy (she/her): we've had that conversation too. but getting that, low, low angle that we don't see as, in, in our normal human everyday lives.
Or the reverse of that is get it up super high.
Casey (she/her): Угу
Amy (she/her): anything other than normal standing height, human height, and looking down on a dog is gonna give your image a lot more impact and it'll be a lot more interesting. I once was able to photograph, an agility course from a, I think it was like a 12-foot ladder.
cool
and this was all with the judges' full support and everybody was like, "This is amazing and hysterical."
it was fun. It was unusual, and it was an entertaining way to take pictures of equipment that I see all the time. So anything you can do to mix it up with what we just see through our eyes on a normal d- daily basis. I- that's even why I like either using wide angles or using telephoto, lenses, is because that 50, anything right around that 50 millimeter mark, that's how we view the world.
Street photographers love that. You do you. But I want something different. that's even why I like, using super shallow depth of field because when we look at the world, at least me when I have my glasses on, when I don't have my glasses on, everything is fuzzy, so there's nothing sharp there.
But when we look at the world, we can't create that same sort of shallow depth of field effect with our eyes and our brains. So that's to me what is so enticing about those slivers of sharpness and everything else in front and in back of that blurring out because it's not what I see through my eyes on a normal daily basis,
Casey (she/her): That's
Amy (she/her): thing that makes art stand out different from... I have 8,000 photos of my dogs on my iPhone, 95% of those are from, standing height. They're just... Or they're a quick shot of the dog being cute, sleeping on the couch. But they're all from, like you were saying, from my current view, and there's no depth to them. They look like what I'm looking at. But then you take the exact same photo and you add some depth of field to it, I'm, like, running through the pictures that are, like, on my camera roll in my phone. My favorites are the ones that are, like, eye level or lower, and
the ones where there is that, I put it on, the iPhone calls it cinematic, where it's got the depth of
Yes
Casey (she/her): It's when it's different than what we're used to seeing,
Amy (she/her): Угу
Casey (she/her): a different part of the brain, and the brain's "Oh, that's interesting." That becomes artistic. That becomes dramatic. That becomes... I love the dog portraits. I'm obsessed with the, wider lens on them, and so you get that little bit of, comical kind of
Amy (she/her): Yep.
Casey (she/her): the
Distortion. is it just makes them look even more fun than, whatever we're already doing.
And that, that difference is what makes it art versus just another cellphone photo.
Amy (she/her): good photography is kind of a caricature things in it are all exaggerated just a little bit. We add a little more color, or we add a little more light in a place that we want people to look.
We add a little more dark in a place that we don't want them to look. We, make sure that the focus is only on the eye of the dog and not on anything else. it's all a bit of a caricature and, you can do it even, to the true depths of caricature-ness, when you throw on a wide angle lens.
[00:19:44] Negative Space and Where the Story Moves
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Casey (she/her): so when we look at all of these, rules and concepts and idea- how do I know what to do? Because that's one thing I get overwhelmed with is there's so damn much information
like, how do I make decisions on some of this?
Amy (she/her): One of the primary things that I'm always looking at is where the negative space is.
So there's the subject, and then everything else is the negative space.
the subject and the not subject. So I want the space that is not the subject to be in a place that supports the story in the photo.
And what I mean by that is if the dog is moving to the left in the photo, I don't want its nose to be almost touching that left edge of the photo. I want there to be space for it to move into, because in my brain I can, even though this is a, a, a fraction of a second out of that, scene, I know what's gonna happen next, and my brain just naturally extrapolates and creates the rest of that movie, so to speak.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): if the dog's nose is about to hit, again, this is for me a very visceral gut thing. If the dog's nose is way over to the left side and that's the direction they're moving, I I almost feel it physically like the dog's gonna hit its face. It's gonna be like this cartoon thing of, Roadrunner and Coyote, where it's gonna run into the glass wall and tumble over backwards and then it's gonna be a disaster.
I know it's not really gonna do that, but it's that same kinda feel, like I've put an obstacle in the dog's path, and that obstacle happens to be the edge of the photo. So we want space in an image for a dog to move into. Even if it's just a portrait, we want space for them to look into.
Casey (she/her): Mhm.
Amy (she/her): So if they're looking to the left, we want the negative space on the left. now all of this, I should, we should take a step back and have a, an overall disclaimer of this is... We can go into the learn the rules so you can break the rules territory. Because sometimes I want to intentionally create the feeling that the dog is gonna smash its face against the edge of the photo, for storytelling reasons.
I may want to do that, but then I am doing it intentionally. I'm creating that tension in an image because I want that to be the story. But when you don't do it intentionally, when it's just, oops,
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): do this, you know, well in camera,
Casey (she/her): this is why it matters to have this conversation and know these things is know the rules so you can break them, but, like, why this thing of movement. one of the photos I took this last weekend, the treat is right at the edge of the image. And if the dog doesn't grab the treat fast enough, it's gonna get away.
And so there is this, energy of "Oh my God, we're almost off the picture," you can kind of create that pressure. you
Amy (she/her): Hmm?
Casey (she/her): the movement of the dog, you can
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): relieve that pressure or add that pressure. And it's not just learn that negative space needs to balance with the dog. Here's why that negative space matters
It's the concept so that you can apply it, so you can create the reaction that you're looking for
it is interesting 'cause I think about just, looking through Instagram I'm on the photographer side of Instagram, so I get picture after picture. And there, there are pictures that, I can look at them like, "This is nice, but it doesn't make me feel anything." And then when... So when you explore that, then you're realizing, there's no flow to it. There's no balance. There, there's something that's, outside of all these rules, and so you just end up with an average picture. And this is why, the pictures I take of my dogs on my phone in the backyard at home, they're cute, they're nice, but they're not statement pieces because they follow no rules.
They're just a snapshot in time.
Amy (she/her): If the audience is just you, you can do whatever the hell you want.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): and it doesn't have to conform to any of the, the norms, the standards of f- the art of photography.
composition becomes important when you are trying to create a reaction in your viewer. So composition is about the interaction of others with your photo, not just you going, "Oh, isn't that adorable of my dog sticking its tongue out," or whatever the scene is.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): so yeah, there's audience to consider. There... A- and it's even different than I just, all I need to do is make the owner of the dog happy, versus I wanna win a major international competition. Those are two different criteria as well.
[00:24:13] Judging Other People's Definition of Good
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Casey (she/her): I'm realizing that the, was it I- IPPA just announced all their winners
Amy (she/her): Yep.
Casey (she/her): and I'm looking through some
Amy (she/her): Yep
Casey (she/her): and I'm like, some of this is not at all what I was expecting in
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): because
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm
Casey (she/her): not photos for owners, it's photos
Amy (she/her): Right
Casey (she/her): sake.
Amy (she/her): It's photos to win a competition. And yeah, there are standards, and I, that's a competition that I'm one of the judges. And so there are standards by which we evaluate the photos, that may not fit the way that you would evaluate it if you were the client. so yeah, they, I had that same reaction too the first time I started really looking at dog photography winners and going, "That's interesting."
And then getting involved on the judging side, I now understand it,
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): better.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): it's one of those things that helps me grow as a photographer because it expands my definition of w- of what good photography is.
I mean, I have my lane. There is no doubt about it. I have my lane. I will,
Casey (she/her): Right.
Amy (she/her): I'm not shy about that.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): anything that pushes me outside of that is good. It, it expands my world in the, in photography, and that's a good thing.
Casey (she/her): Yeah. That difference between being able to look at it... when I first looked at them, I'm like, "I don't like these. How are they winners?" And then, I had to walk away, take a breath, and I'm like, "Okay, this is a different concept than what I choose to shoot or what I've been learning and focusing
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Casey (she/her): I can appreciate it for art's sake." a couple of these, I went back and looked at them, I'm like, "Oh, okay. I see within the realm of a competition, of the category,
Amy (she/her): there, the category is really important to consider. Yeah
Casey (she/her): Yeah. And so I'm like, "Okay, within the c- within greater context, can see that this is an interesting piece of art." I don't want it hanging on my wall, and I'm never gonna try to create something
Amy (she/her): Right
Casey (she/her): but that doesn't mean I can't look at it and still appreciate it or learn from it or let it broaden my
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Casey (she/her): Um, there's some shoots, there was a couple of winning images from actually the cat category of IPPA this
Amy (she/her): Okay
Casey (she/her): like, "I wanna do that with a puppy." and
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): like, a couple of ideas that I'm like, "Ooh, put that in the bank for, a fun
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): idea."
Amy (she/her): that is the goal. Let's expand everybody's mind about what is possible in photography. and note, you don't have to like all of it. And as the photographer, you don't have to be liked by everybody who looks at your photo. that's the flip side of it.
It doesn't, that doesn't mean it's less valid or less of a winner or anything. it's an interesting process to be involved in that judging 'cause,
Casey (she/her): I bet.
Amy (she/her): I enjoy it a lot
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): because it does push me to, to expand my boundaries a bit, so
Casey (she/her): I love that. so I feel like we, very traditional to us, got a little derailed there. Can we go back to hierarchy? I think we hit
Amy (she/her): Yes.
Casey (she/her): and then, we
Amy (she/her): That's all we had to... That's
Casey (she/her): left turn. So let's jump back to, uh, negative
Amy (she/her): so us though.
Casey (she/her): folks, this is why we don't do a ton of planning and scripting because everything
Amy (she/her): I think is fascinating and interesting, and I wanted to have these conversations, and they wouldn't happen if they're scripted. But also
Right
Casey (she/her): skills is how do I get back to the original conversation for those of
Amy (she/her): Yes.
Casey (she/her): as
Amy (she/her): Thank God
Casey (she/her): are wondering where the hell the conversation went?
[00:27:43] Leading Lines, Reading the Image, and Simplifying the Image
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Amy (she/her): leading lines, and they don't have to be literal.
This could be the way the light is moving through the image. This could be the way that the pattern of what is bright and what is not in an image. Let me say it that way. So like stepping stones, the idea that you use the light to create this path, to move you through the image.
because we read from left to right, we tend to enter an image on the left-hand side and move t- towards the right.
So I saw, photographer Tim Flach talk, at a conference one time, and his whole thing was about tying the work of the old masters, painting masters, to, how we read photographs, and the idea that they would paint, paint the light in such a way that it would bring you in somewhere on the left-hand side and then move you from left to right across the image.
and I was fascinated by that 'cause that was the most kind of deep and, analytical I had ever experienced with talking about composition and how we read photos. And this is where my desire to talk about the psychology of it comes from,
Casey (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Amy (she/her): listening to him speak.
So this is another thing that I emphasize when I'm working with people, is how do we... Even if you don't enter on the left, which I still would agree is the strongest place to enter, but wherever you enter that photo, how do we get you to the most important part?
And if the most important thing is too dark, or is there's no leading lines, or the negative space is in the wrong place, Then we need to look at changing the way we're reading the image. or no, we don't need to change the way we're reading it. We need to change how it is causing us to read the image.
We need to change the cues that we're reading. does that make sense?
Casey (she/her): my brain is thinking
Amy (she/her): Go ahead
Casey (she/her): books, squares and like a lot of times the speech bubbles are s- stacked where like the dialogue moves from, like you said, left to right, top to bottom. But sometimes the
Amy (she/her): Hmm.
Casey (she/her): is laid out, the dialogue actually starts on the right, and so it'll be in like a different shaped bubble or it'll be like bold print.
The- there's something to pop your eyes across the image to the left side to start the conversation and then follow it back through the rest of like the comic
Amy (she/her): That's a really great analogy. And obviously I don't read a lot of comics, so that's, yes. No, that, that works really well because you're exactly right. that's kind of the essence of it. It's as if someone put the text on the right-hand side but forgot to change the shape of the bubble, so we don't know that's where we're supposed to start, or we don't know that's,gonna pull us in one direction.
And the- or we can't follow it back to the, the, the rest of the path, and so then we end up reading words that are out of order with the way the story's going, and we're confused. So trying to bring some order and flow and a path to an image, is the same idea. Trying to make sure that... and we can't guarantee everybody's gonna read the image in the same way.
that's actually where people tend to get stuck a little bit, is but what if I do all this work and I create this visual path through the image and people don't read it? there's only so much you can do. and we'll have discussions on the group calls to say, "Hey, how do you read this image?
Hey, what are you seeing first?" and the, the variations on that are very interesting. but what I find is that they start out, they can start out really diverse. "Oh, I start over here," or, "I see this first." And then as we work through the image and as we make changes, it starts to converge. Even if we don't all come in at exactly the same place and we don't read it all exactly the same way, there's a little more convergence of how we're all viewing it.
Casey (she/her): Okay
Amy (she/her): we can agree that yeah, this is a more, coherent story, a more coherent image than when we first started with it,
So that's the, the leading lines and like you said, not in a literal sense of 'Cause I've seen the, I've seen
Mm-hmm.
Casey (she/her): on that where we're literally using it, like stuff in the background,the rails on the bridge or the
Amy (she/her): Sure
Casey (she/her): to like literally pull the eye across the image to the dog. But we can also
Amy (she/her): you can absolutely do that
Casey (she/her): Yeah. But like leading lines can also be, more conceptual. the
Amy (she/her): Угу
Casey (she/her): the light or kind of the other elements can also still lead us through the image.
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
another thing that Bryan Hansel said when I was, when we were having the rule of thirds conversation is that people tend to be either a shape person or a line person. And what he meant by that was we tend to see... I see in lines. I do see in lines. I will find whether they're literal or implied, I can find lines in a scene, and I use lines to set up my photos as much as I can.
but there are people who see shapes better. they'll pick out a shape that leads us to the next shape, that leads us to the next shape.
Casey (she/her): I can't speak to that as well because I, that is not how I naturally view, the elements in my photos.
Amy (she/her): So that's another way to move through an image and so I think that's part of where the diversity in how we read an image is gonna come into play, is I'm gonna be caught by lines. I'm gonna find them whether you put them there or not.
So I don't know if there are actual hierarchies. There are things that I use more often.
There are things that I tend to look for more often. I don't get so much into the complex, like golden ratio and golden triangle,
Casey (she/her): Mm,
Amy (she/her): know, those, the golden spiral.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): I... That has never been something that I've tried to implement intentionally
I tend to keep things pretty simple. I'm looking for the negative space and the lines and how I move through the image,
Casey (she/her): see that being also very much one of those nuance and context things 'cause one of... A couple of the like, the spiral examples I've seen are like Frisbee dogs, and those dogs get that big like curved arch to their
Amy (she/her): Mm.
Casey (she/her): they kind of roll back over to grab a disc out of the air.
And so like I almost
Amy (she/her): Угу
Casey (she/her): of what you're predominantly shooting, which your
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): to be trained to see more,Or it, that could just also be type. But the one, the ones I see are these very particular types of sports and action shots where that like spiral example seems to just naturally show up more than
Amy (she/her): Ja.
so far in Ja
Casey (she/her): or than I would see in a portrait or things like that.
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): And yet, if you were to show me the same photo and not tell me that it's the golden spiral was involved, I could probably figure out a structure that worked with the, the things that I most fr- frequently use,
Casey (she/her): Right.
Amy (she/her): would still be equally applicable to the same photo.
that's why this whole idea of it being a rule is nonsense to me,
Casey (she/her): Yep
Amy (she/her): because there's 25 different ways to describe the same photo.
Casey (she/her): that's what I was just gonna say is I think to me that's permission for newer photographers to not get so fucking overwhelmed by all of this. it's okay if right now every time you edit a photo you pull up the rule of thirds knowing that, you want to outgrow that or use that as a starting place and then look at the negative space, the leading lines, the light, whatever.
this is partly just how I learn stuff too, that like I want all of it in my brain 'cause I wanna know it all and be an expert and do it right, and then I get overwhelmed and I panic and I shut down. And so that balance of like all of these rules aren't and fast rules.
They don't all have to apply to every situation, and you may find that you have a couple that you go back to more often and a couple that never really apply to your work, your style, your way of seeing things. as time moves on, be aware of these things and the decisions you're making around them.
Amy (she/her): I have a composition class that I've taught, and the assignments are always, go use this rule or this guideline or this pattern.
to create a photo, and it can be very artificial and staged, but I want you to practice what it looks like when the elements in the image are arranged according to this pattern.
'cause composition is just that. It's, it's the way we arrange all of the, the pieces that are in the photo. I think one mistake that we make, especially beginners, is there's too much. We include too much.
Casey (she/her): Yeah。
Amy (she/her): and the two people that I have learned the most from, Alan Murphy and Bryan Hansel, both emphasize the idea of simplicity, take out as much as you can.
Simplify your image as much as you can, and then if it's too boring, then you could add one thing back in. And then if it's still too boring, you could add one thing back in. But if you try and include all the things in the image, it just is overwhelming, and then your viewer will shut down because your viewer will be overwhelmed, and they can't make out the story you're trying to tell because you've got five different stories going on in there.
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): and by the way, story is not once upon a time, this person did this,
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): It's much more basic than that. It is, it's about, deciding who's the boss in the frame, what is the most important thing, and sticking to that, and everything in the frame needs to support the most important thing.
Casey (she/her): I know I'm too new to the game to say this, but I'm gonna say it anyways. I think everybody should have to spend some time shooting portrait with fucking blank flat backgrounds. Because it's interesting, I've just been thinking about this as I edit this for sure enough client galleries of, I'm trying to sell a p- a story with literally one dog, no props, and a flat color background. And oh, there's this element of, some decisions I made around cropping so that looks like, like the dog is looking off the page, and there's some extra negative space there so that there's this kind of the dog's, looking longingly to their owner, and, the movement of the dog jumping through to catch a treat.
And just, it's so funny that, as you were saying that, I'm like, "Oh, I'm still telling a story with a blue backdrop and a dog and nothing else." And I think it's making me have to think almost, in some of these photos, even more about what I'm doing with them, because they're already so simple, but I don't want it to just be, "Here's a picture of your dog sitting.
Here's a picture of your dog sitting. Here's a picture of your dog standing." I want there to be, like, an overall vibe to the gallery,
So I, think everyone should have to go shoot really basic and learn how to still tell a story with it.
Amy (she/her): that's one of the things that I love about when I go on an Alan Murphy workshop, is I know I'm gonna get birds on interesting perches with really super clean backgrounds. Like, there's nothing going on.
It is blurred out completely. It is a color, and that is all it is. And so my job is to find the interesting things that are going on with the bird, either in its behavior, whether it's, preening or stretching or fighting with another bird, or it's interacting with its perch, pulling berries off or whatever.
or if it's just sitting there being pretty, that's okay, too. that's the why I say it doesn't have to be once upon a time, this thing happened, the end, in your pictures. It could be just, look at my gorgeous dog sitting there looking pretty.
You don't want 15 of those in the gallery, and you were talking about that. But one or two is totally fine. That's still a story about, look at this gorgeous specimen of a canine. and that's legit.
then your fundamentals of is everything sharp where it needs to be become super important, because that's all there is to see.
that's where things like photos that are out of focus or focus is in the wrong place become, it becomes much more obvious. that's one of the things I notice the most when I'm judging photo competitions, is all it takes is the focus to be off by a little bit to just completely sink the photo.
I- there was one photo where I was, like, heartbroken at the score and the feedback I gave because the only thing that was wrong was really wrong. the eyes were soft. Like, there was no way of disguising it. And everything else about the photo was so well done, so well crafted, and the focus was amiss.
And that is such a basic foundational thing that you have to have in a photo, There was no way for that photo to progress any further than, the base, the lowest level of scores.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): Because it's just,
Casey (she/her): That's,
Amy (she/her): that's such a miss. It's such a miss
Casey (she/her): first step that you can't even... It's,
Amy (she/her): Mhm
Casey (she/her): said, there's no way to interpret it. There's no way to work around it. That's just like a box you have to check,
Amy (she/her): it made me sad because, are people not having others look at their photos before they submit them to competitions?
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): You want somebody who you trust their opinion. But the first people to see your photos other than you in a competition should not be the judge.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): It should be somebody else that you trust, that can say, "Oh, hey, did you notice?" And it should be not after you've spent 15 hours post-processing. It should be, "Here's the raw photo.
Find the flaws, please."
Casey (she/her): it would be, "Oh, did you notice that the focus is off?" "Oh, no, I missed that. I'm gonna go reshoot."
it should be, that should be an instantaneous thing. and so I just... this is a question I don't know how to answer. Are people not getting their, having their photos that they're entering in competitions looked at?
Bet
Amy (she/her): Sign me up. Bring your photo to me, I'll
Casey (she/her): Uh-huh.
Amy (she/her): I'll get you competition-ready, absolutely,
but
Right
Casey (she/her): y- always with the best intention and setting us
Amy (she/her): Yeah
there were many that where the focus was off and, but there were also other things.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): This one in particular, the only thing that was off was the focus, and otherwise it was so beautiful.
Casey (she/her): That
Amy (she/her): It just broke my heart.
Casey (she/her): Yep.
Amy (she/her): anyway,
So as usual, we've wandered all over the board and, covered a lot of interesting tangents, but what would an episode be without a lot of that? I think one of the best things people can do if you're overwhelmed by what's going on in your photo, is simplify. and that really you need to simplify as you're taking the photo.
But the more you can simplify what you're putting in the frame, the better chance you're gonna have of creating a really impactful composition. So
Casey (she/her): Cool
Amy (she/her): my, my ending word of wisdom,
Casey (she/her): I think my ending word of wisdom is, people harp on these rules because they do matter, but they're not the end-all be-all right, wrong of photography. take the time to explore these things and understand why they're a topic of conversation,
Amy (she/her): and understanding that they're not rules for the sake of rules.
the goal is to keep people looking at your photo and thinking about how it makes them feel longer.