Kelly Kannwischer - Holding Space

What does it look like to stay present with people when there’s tension, disagreement, or hurt in a relationship? Jessie Cruickshank and Kelly Kannwischer explore the practice of holding space, drawing on the way of Jesus to show how we can remain connected without abandoning our convictions or compromising healthy boundaries. They talk about navigating conflict, grounding our identity in Christ rather than other people’s opinions, and allowing room for the Holy Spirit to bring growth and redemption in relationships that aren’t always easy.

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ABOUT JESSIE:
Jessie Cruickshank holds a Master’s degree in experiential education from Harvard and has spent 30 years studying how the brain actually learns, grows, and changes. She’s the author of Ordinary Discipleship and the architect of Identity Formation Theory, a framework for understanding where people are in their spiritual and psychological development. She believes discipleship was never meant to be a solo journey, and neuroscience backs her up.

Creators and Guests

Host

Jessie Cruickshank

Author of Ordinary Discipleship, Speaker, Neuro-ecclesiologist, belligerently optimistic, recklessly obedient, patiently relentless, catalyzing change

What is Ordinary Discipleship Podcast?

The Ordinary Discipleship podcast with Jesse Cruickshank and the Whoology team is a journey through the fascinating intersection of neuroscience and narrative to ignite the disciplemaker in you.  Delve into the transformative power of storytelling, exploring how our brains are wired for transformation and discover the extraordinary in the ordinary. From understanding the biological roots of storytelling to unlocking the secrets of spiritual maturity, each episode offers insights to empower you to become a more effective disciplemaker and deepen your spiritual growth.

Jessie Cruickshank: Welcome to
the Ordinary Discipleship

Podcast. I am Jesse Cruikshank,
and today I have with me my dear

friend Kelly Kanwisher. And
Kelly and I have known each

other for I think are we getting
closer to a decade? I feel I

feel like yeah, yeah, yeah, a
while. We even had the fantastic

opportunity to work with each
other and to do some fun things,

co-create some things. And one
thing that Kelly and I share a

passion about, and I'm really
excited for you to hear from her

about, is around this idea of
embracing the tension in

relationships in a way that
allows you to continue to hear

from the Lord, hear the Holy
Spirit and do what God says, and

in psychology we call that
holding space. So, so Kelly

holds a lot of space and helps
rooms, different rooms do that

as well. Trains people in how to
do this, and so Kelly, I'm so

excited to have you here with us
today.

Kelly Kannwischer: I'm really
excited to be here. It's always

fun to spend time with you,
Jesse.

Jessie Cruickshank: Well, I want
to start with having maybe for

those who may not completely
understand the definition or the

concept of holding space, you
know, they might have heard it

out in the world because it is
around in some pop culture. But

what is it, and maybe where do
we see some of this in

scripture, because it's not
necessarily a spiritual

discipline in Christianity the
way it is in other faiths. So,

where do we see it in scripture?
What is this? What are we going

to talk about?

Unknown: Well, you know what?
That's a great question because

I didn't have words for it
either when I first met you.

What I remember processing with
you one day was the the service

I was doing with young adults,
and them living in this constant

cancel culture or fear of a
cancel culture. I probably

driven by social media, but I
I'm not one of those people that

makes social media the devil of
all things in our lives. But it

everything felt so fragile,
meaning that you were either in

or you were out, and there was
and there was just this kind of

fear that you're going to be out
all of a sudden. And I was also

at the same time raising two
daughters that were young

teenagers, and witnessing the
same kind of like anxiety,

worry, and and sometimes them
making choices that I think

otherwise they wouldn't make,
but they were just so worried

about the fear. It was just a
fear, right? And I just I didn't

have words for how do I talk to
people about being like, how do

you just say, hey, we don't have
to agree, but we can still be in

the same space together. We can
still have a relationship. And

you used that phrase, holding
space, and I remember saying,

"Oh wait, I'm going to need to
know a lot more about that word,

those words. What do you mean by
that?" And we started teasing it

out together. And for me, one of
the early things that I

appreciated was this idea of how
do I stay present when there is

dissonance, when there's pain,
when there's when there's a lack

of agreement, but how do I stay
present? And it doesn't always.

It's not. It wasn't. It wasn't
the same thing as

reconciliation. It was just. It
was just the ability to stay

present. And I think that's
where it started for me with the

idea of holding space.

Jessie Cruickshank: I love the
way that you say that because I

think people think we either
have to reconcile, or we have to

avoid, right? So, I I either
need to be on the same page, and

and usually it's like you agree
with me because we don't even

talk about finding a space of
compromise of agreement, but

like you agree with me, or I I
just it's too much stress, it's

too much fear, it's too much
anxiety to be present to you

while we disagree or have this
this dissonance. And and I love

the way that you say that
because it's not it's not that

either or, it's something else,
you know. And yeah, where you,

I'm gonna brag on you for a
second. You have an MDiv from is

oh it's Duke right

Unknown: Princeton dang it darn
it those snobs

Jessie Cruickshank: Princeton
one of the one of the other Ivy

Leagues right so so you you have
an M div like you have been a

student of Scripture at a high
level for a long time, but most

other places that talk about
holding space from the

perspective of faith, they do
so, but they're not Christian.

They're more, you know, Hindu
has a version of it, and

Buddhism has a version of it.
Where where do you see it in in

Scripture? Where do you see this
invitation from the Christian

perspective into into a
relationship like that?

Unknown: From the Gospels, it's
just watching how Jesus moves

through the world, so he can be
present with the woman at the

well with. Without affirming her
behaviors, or he can even be

present with the disciples when
they're just getting it wrong,

right? And he doesn't have to
say, "You missed that one, John.

Way to go! Wrong answer. You're
out. You don't get to be part of

my disciple school anymore." And
he doesn't do that, right? I

mean, he says, "Okay, wrong,"
and let me tell you why. Okay,

and so I think I think there's
this idea that like if we are

Christians today in this modern
world, then we will never be a

part of communities or schools
or workplaces that don't share

values that I share that I have,
and instead we see like Jesus

himself moving through the world
in a way that's like, no, I'm

going to be very present with
people without affirming their

worldview. So that would be one
one way. The second is when you

get into Acts and how the church
spreads. You know, Paul is as

able to speak Greek or
philosophy as he is able to

speak Hebrew theology or Hebrew
tradition and worldview, and he

doesn't say that there's only
one way to engage people to help

them come into a living and
loving faith with Jesus, He's

like, "Hey, let me start where
you are." And you're starting,

you know, Mars Hill. You're
you're starting with your Greek

understanding of the world. You
you people are super smart, so

let me start where you are. And
I think I think there's um, and

a third would be the just
affirming nature of God has all

through Scripture from the very
beginning to the very end that

God's very affirming of the
world even though it's broken.

He's very for the world even
though He needs to restore it,

and He's inviting us into that
restoration process with Him.

And so, because we're invited
into restoration, we just know

that we are supposed to hold
space with the brokenness even

though we are constantly working
toward redemption, constantly

working toward God's kingdom
come, even if we may not see it

before Jesus comes back.

Jessie Cruickshank: Do you think
that most people see themselves

as part of that restoration, or
that they are waiting for that

restoration to happen in order
to engage with it?

Unknown: Well, if we really want
to nerd out for a second, this

is where I go to Richard
Niebuhr's work on Christ and

culture, and the you know beauty
of what he's talking about is

how do we hold space with
culture as Christians? And

there's not one way to do it, or
at least there's not one way

that he observes the church, you
know, and so you've got the

classic kind of Christ against
culture, which is the whole idea

that you know we're supposed to
be against going to movies or

dancing or drinking or being a
part of the world, invest

putting money into companies
that we disagree with their

whatevers, so there's this idea
that we're against the world,

Christ against culture, and we
see this in certain traditions

of the church for centuries, you
know. And then I think you know

you've got others like kind of
the Christ above culture that

has this more of this away from
the world idea. So the Amish or

the you know the the people that
would just say we're called to

just kind of disconnect or
create our own little way of

being in the world that's apart
from the world in it, but not a

part of it. And I'm not saying
that any one of these don't have

some faithful view of scripture.
They use scripture. They're

trying to understand who God is
and how to move through the

world. I think some of it can be
very faithful. I, as a reformed

Christian, and I think Richard
Niebuhr was trying to make the

point in the in the in the book
that you know Christ

transforming culture is a very
good way of having a

relationship with culture, which
is it isn't what it should be if

God's on the throne. If God is
not yet fully on the throne, sin

still exists, brokenness exists,
but we get to partner with Him

in transforming that. So Christ
transforming culture to be more

to His glory, and so I think I
think we all come to this how we

view Christ and culture, how we
participate in real honest ways.

If we've grown up in the church
or around church people, we kind

of grown up in a tradition where
there's an interpretation of

this given to us in sermons and
Bible studies and things like

that, but I think it's really
healthy sometimes to take a step

back and say, "What do I think
about my opportunity to interact

with culture, and how does that
provide a witness to the world?"

Jessie Cruickshank: I love the
nerd out because because it it

allows us to like look at
something maybe from a little

broader perspective, because I'm
thinking about I'm thinking

about your teenage daughters.
Well, who are a little older

than that at this point, right?
Or most most young people, most

middle aged people, how much
they, the ones that I interact

with, are are walking on these
eggshells or round. Other

people's emotions and
perceptions about things, and it

does create a lot of background
anxiety and nervousness because

they're like, okay, well, if if
we have a conversation and I

experience it one way, but you
experience it another way, like

you could just ghost me, you
could leave me, you could fire

me, you could stop being my
friend, and and this living in

that fear, I wonder how our
discourse got there, right? I

wonder why seeking to
understand, having that

conversation, like when when
when I was coming up in

leadership in the '90s and the
early 2000s, we called it a

difficult conversation or
conflict management. Right

there, there was training
specifically in how to have a

conversation and find, learn to
understand other people's

perspectives. Like it was a
given that your perspective was

not complete or wholly accurate,
and we've lost that dynamic. So

when you're talking with these
these young people, when you

were leaning into this, like
what did you what did you find

that they were missing, and and
how did you coach them? How did

you help them in that space?

Unknown: Words. I mean, I think
that they're missing words for

how to be present with people
with their own tension. First of

all, how do I have words for
what I don't understand or know

what to do with, and then words
for how do I stay present with

people without communicating I
dislike them or or don't want to

be in a relationship with them.
I mean, I thought it was part of

why I liked holding space so
much. Was it was words, as you

say, and as you have taught me
over the years how powerful

naming is. Once you can name
something or put words to

something, you can deal with it.
And so the the idea of just

saying, how do I name the
tension? This is a me in the

world tension, or Christ and
culture tension. I pick, you

know, how you want to say it.
And then, and instead of this is

not a me and Jesse tension. Like
this is not a person to person

tension. It's an idea to an idea
tension, or a choice to choice

tension, or a value to a value
tension. And so let's stay

present with the person, but
let's name where the dissonance

is or the disconnect is. I think
it's hard with teenagers who are

in schools with a very small
little world. It's you know

hysterical how many similarities
there are to those British

documentaries about the watering
hole, where animals are coming

in into the watering hole, and
and they are talking about, oh

look, I can't do a British
accent, or I would, but you

know, look, there's a there's a
gazelle coming to the watering

hole, oh my goodness, and then
the lion comes, and or there's a

crocodile that just jumps out
and eats it real fast. I mean, I

think every time that our kids
feel like they're going to the

watering hole to just try to
connect with their friends,

they're so afraid of that
crocodile that's going to come

out and eat them, or the lion
that's going to pounce from them

out of nowhere. And so there's
just this death fear that trying

to engage positively just means
you're going to be out, and and

with social constructs the way
they are, the bullying, the the

exclusion. I think that's really
hard. I think as you get older,

it's a little easier because you
can choose, make better choices

for you. I'm sorry, you just
have more agency to make

choices, but I don't think the
pain is any less. I mean, I

think everybody still wants
friends, and you still want

community. Heck, I don't think
I've, you know, you were with me

during my seasonal life where,
like, as a pastor's wife, you

know, we got my husband and I
got, I'll just say it, I say,

like, invited out of of our own
small group. They want they did

things without us, and it was so
painful, but holding space with

them, it was really important to
say, "Well, I can still see

people. We don't maybe we don't
have that relationship anymore."

And you really didn't. You don't
realize how much that was

painful for us. But let's keep
moving forward because there are

ways in which, as part of our
church, we're still called to be

in community together.

Jessie Cruickshank: How did you
process that? Because what I

think that a lot of people the
coaching they would get is you

know well you need to you need
to end that relationship you

need to distance yourself from
them you know it's it's self

care to figure out how to
regulate and not have tension

and not have that struggle and
so you know the there's a lot of

advice out there that that that
tension is bad, that that

anxiety is bad, and so you need
to distance yourself in order to

have a calmer self. So, as an
adult who has the agency to

choose to disconnect, but also
the agency to have self control.

Manage yourself, regulate
yourself, and connect. Like,

like, like, what was that like?
How did you, how did you think

about that?

Unknown: Vulnerably. I mean, I
really wanted to find a lot of.

I wanted them to like me and to
find a lot of like, um. So you

know, like affirmation that I
was in a vibrant friendship

group. And so, I mean, the first
thing you just have to realize

is like their their assessment
of me is not necessarily full or

accurate. Meaning God God
decides who I am. God defines

me. God decides. Now I also need
to listen to friends who will

tell me you have a growth edge,
but that's not what was

happening here. Like that's not
at all. It wasn't about my my

growth or my development as a
disciple. This was just about

you know community not being the
right one, you know. And and

sometimes, hey, the community is
not the right one. Doesn't mean

I'm not a great friend. Doesn't
mean that you know we are we've

done something horrible or blah
blah. It just means it's not a

right. It's not a good fit. So I
think part of it for me was

processing, you know, how I
felt, like my own feelings of

rejection, or like how my own
feelings of like being less

than, and then just realizing,
like, hey, let's just put this

into context that it's just not
the right group, not the right

life stage, not the right thing.
But yeah, I think for a teenager

that's really hard. I think for
a family, it's even more tricky

because you and I have talked a
lot about how do you hold space

with members of your family
where there's real hurt or real

damage, but they're your family,
like mother, brother, sister, or

something like that, and you
can't just like cancel them. So

how do you hold space with them
without saying like I'm called

to just be a doormat, or I'm
they they get to treat me

however they want. Also not
true, you know. So I do think

it's a lot of like orienting
yourself to your identity in

Christ and orienting yourself to
people who speak truth into your

life, and not only listening to
the voices that are either

hurting you or painful to you or
telling you negative things.

Jessie Cruickshank: So, how do
you, Kelly, maintain your

identity in these situations?
Because I think, I think to me,

when we make it not about values
and and not about who's right

and who's wrong, we can say,
"Wow, it's really about the

narratives that we live in," and
that that to me changes the

conversation, right? So, how do
I? How do you, Kelly? How do?

How would someone who's
listening to this show up as

their true identity and be
present to the other person in

the midst of this tension, and
hold space while not necessarily

entering the narrative that they
want to put you in, because

that's what you know. You show
up as yourself. You're not

letting them tell you who who
you are. How did you do that? Or

maybe you've got an example. I
mean, I think I think you

probably got a few examples of
that. So whatever one you want

to share. But how would you
coach somebody to stay in their

true identity even while being
present, but not joining the

other person's narrative?

Unknown: Well, I don't claim to
be an expert, so I'm just going

to speak for my own story. I
would say one is deciding whose

voice matters in your life Based
on health and their own

spiritual maturity, their own
emotional maturity. So, like my

husband, when when I ask for
either like clarification, like

is this really what this
person's saying, or how am I

like this is kind of bananas to
me? Like his voice means a lot.

Your voice, Jesse, means a lot
to me because of the the

spiritual maturity, the
emotional maturity, to be able

to look at a situation to know
me, and to give me that you

know, just like what we call in
in Christian discipleship

discernment, genuine Holy Spirit
driven discernment, and so

knowing whose voices are ones
you can trust. Now, I might not

always agree with my husband or
you, but knowing that you have

my best interests and that you
are a wise person is always. I

think that is so crucial in
anybody's story, is to know

whose voice you can trust. Not
again, not blindly follow, but

just genuinely trust to give
perspective. And the second is

one of the things you and I have
talked a lot about in holding

space, which is to just give it
some time for whatever reason in

our in our current life or
story. Because we can text or we

can fire off an answer about
something, we think that we have

to just we have we have to we
have to decide. You're in,

you're out. Cancel me or don't.
I have a a friendship that's

really important to me. Who, you
know, I don't know what we you

and I don't particularly love
the enneagram, but everybody

seems to understand like an
enneagram aids a fighter, right?

And and wants to fight over text
messages, and I don't engage,

and it just makes her bananas.
And I'm like, I'm not going to

do this on a text message, like.
Let's hold some space here. We

like let's just you know take a
beat and and and allow some time

to go by, some breath to come in
the situation, and oftentimes

there's a whole new perspective.
So I'd say those are the two

things that for me have been
really important. One is really

identifying the voices that are
valid and wise and true, and

seek them. And two is just allow
for there to be the presence of

space and time for the Holy
Spirit to work in hearts and

minds on both sides or all three
sides, however whatever's going

on, to just allow it to be like,
wait a minute, is this really

the end of the world? Is this
really like maybe this is just

something that we can get
through together and move on. So

that would be two ways I would
say for me have been things I've

learned from you and and and
just practicing in the world.

Jessie Cruickshank: What I love
is the paint the picture that

you're painting here because
we're you're talking about

holding space, which for me I
always think about this is super

cheesy, but I feel like Jesus
has got the whole world in his

hands, kind of kind of a thing,
and and God wrapping his arms

around the world, and he's
holding it even while all this

stuff is kind of you know going
on, and and so not disconnecting

and not disengaging, but seeing,
feeling, experiencing. So, so in

my mind, when I go to hold
space, I imagine again. This is

super cheesy, but I imagine my
arms going like going around the

situation, holding literally
holding the situation and

holding the people in it, so
that my heart is present, and

even if I'm not saying
something, right? So, so the

space that's allowed for people
to breathe, to find their own

self-regulation, like, like I
am, I'm just kind of waiting

there, right? Just kind of
waiting there. And I wasn't good

at this when I was younger,
because I am an enneagram eight

and I have both anxious and
avoidant attachment. I didn't

know. Yeah, I'm a I'm an earn
secure. But what helped me the

the reason why I'm why I'm
better now is I have a husband

who is securely attached, and he
wouldn't fight me, and he made

me like sit in the same room
while he thought and found his

words, and it was excruciating
at first. I mean, you wouldn't

think that like 510 minutes, or
even 30 minutes could have

lasted so long. It was the
longest eternity for me to just

sit in my anxiety and my tension
for him, and be and and and

learn to wait for him to find
his words and his language to

express himself, and he did that
because he's like he wouldn't

fight me, he wouldn't debate me,
and and so I had I had to learn

the presence without the words
or the presence while the other

person found that, or the
presence with my own anxiety

because I wanted him to say
something to just either attack

or to relieve my anxiety because
I'm afraid and like the worst

fear is going through my head
and and I wanted somebody else

to actually regulate me, yeah,
in that dynamic.

Unknown: I I do think I I do
want to name this too because we

talked a lot about this. What do
you do when people are actually

abusive, like when they actually
want to harm you or can harm

you? And you know Jesus says
trend the other cheek, and I

know yeah. There's all kinds of
ways that we need to talk about

that that one. But I think when
he says love your Enemies. What

you know? One way to interpret
that theologically is to not

allow them to be violent toward
you, but it is to say to love

someone is to want what God
wants for them, to want the best

for them, to say like I I'm
gonna love my enemy. I'm not

going to demonize them or
stereotype them or put them in a

box they can't get out of. I'm
going to try and say I you're

you're hurting me and perhaps
it's actual harm. But you know

you're so I want to see you with
the eyes that God sees you, I

want the best for you, but I'm
not going to allow you to do

that to me. I'm not going to
allow you to continue to create

a violent encounter with me in
any way. And I think that's the

ultimate holding space because
it's not really holding space in

that situation. There's got to
be some sort of way to say, I

don't want what's bad? I don't
want anything bad for you, but

also we're gonna have to take
space from each other in so far

as it's related to your ability
to harm me physically,

emotionally. the The challenge I
have in today, this is my funny

thing. The challenge I have
today in today's culture is what

is true. Harm or trauma, because
now all of a sudden it's like I

didn't. I they put tomatoes on
my bowl, and I've been

traumatized. Like how many how
many ways different ways does

this the current world use the
word trauma for things that we

just don't like? Right. Or I had
a negative encounter with

somebody, and I've been
traumatized. I'm like, no, you

weren't. You just had an
argument. Like that's not actual

like trauma, you know. But I
think we've been we we because

we don't know how to hold space
and we don't know how to engage

in productive trauma. I mean,
it's not trauma. It's productive

conversation. We turn everything
into trauma. We gotta stop that.

I

that's how

unhelpful.

Jessie Cruickshank: It it makes
me it makes me a little insane

sometimes. As someone who who
did have an abusive childhood,

Unknown: the

Jessie Cruickshank: way that the
language is used really, I feel

it every time. I have to hold
space with people who overuse

and overexpress and use
hyperbole around it, because,

because like, no, I actually
like had my arm broken, you

know, like like things it
minimizes those who have

experienced real trauma by
making everything traumatic, and

and I wonder, I don't know if
it's that we're so sensitive as

because I don't because when I
talk to people, it's not that

that people are overly
sensitive. I think that we have

the wrong goal in mind that we
should never have an

uncomfortable experience.

Unknown: The whole world's
supposed to just be bubble

wrapped for the way that we
think or the way we move through

the world, or just kind of what
we want.

Jessie Cruickshank: I think that
if we can learn how to hold

space better, and we understand
that that's like actually a

goal. Being present to not just
ourselves but another person is

a goal that will heal us way
more than all of this

disconnection. Because the
disconnection doesn't actually

heal you; it may pause you and
keep things from getting

escalated, but it doesn't heal

Unknown: exactly. So,

Jessie Cruickshank: so if we can
if we can find a different way

of talking about this and set a
different goal, then I think we

could see these encounters not
as trauma but as growth

opportunities, as an opportunity
to become more resilient, an

opportunity to have a heart
that's big enough to love your

neighbor, the stranger, the
foreigner, your enemy, you know,

whoever whoever it is that that
you feel is imposing upon you,

and and probably is, but like,

Unknown: sure, why is that a bad

Jessie Cruickshank: thing,
right? Why is that a bad thing,

Unknown: right? And also, like,
let's be respectful of people

who have genuine trauma in their
lives by not calling the morning

commute traffic traumatic. I
think there are ways to show up

for people who are genuinely
reconciling very broken parts of

their story or relationships,
that we are responsible to honor

that in a way that collapsing
challenge, conflict, growth to

trauma, just fails to honor. I
think I just think that fails to

honor it well.

Jessie Cruickshank: Because what
I've seen is that the people who

have experienced actual harm and
trauma, like actual verifiable,

would would you know if
authorities have known, they

would have been removed as
children. Kind of things like

they actually have gotten
quieter in in all of this

discourse. They feel it more,
but they have fewer people that

they can kind of talk to about
it. And I wonder if it's not

just to kind of process out loud
with you because you always

stimulate my thinking. I I
wonder I wonder if our

discourse, because it's also
gotten very, very aggressive and

very mean, right? We have we
people say some really awful

things that I would have gotten
my mouth washed out with soap

with when I was a kid. You know,
I would have got detention for

the way that that some people
talk to each other in the public

space here. I wonder if like
that amplitude and then the

amplitude of hey, no, that that
actually harms me and hurts me,

is happening because people
don't feel heard. So allowing us

to hold space creates the
opportunity actually to for

everyone to be heard, and and to
just kind of deescalate

deescalate all the emotion of
the situation, but but I find so

many people don't feel heard, so
they're amplifying and

escalating how they behave.

Unknown: It makes sense to me
from only from one thing that's

happened recently, which is at a
large scale institutional level,

a change was rolled out and.
Constituents didn't like it.

Okay, well, things change,
right? But the people who had a

preference for the old way or
didn't care for the new thing

went online and went ballistic
and angry and were all over

social media, emails to groups
of large groups of people,

whatever. And those people who
are like, I mean, I don't love

it, but no big deal, or I
actually really like it, said

nothing. And so when the leader
of the organization starts

calling people that she trusts
back to the who are the voices

that are wise and emotionally
mature and that I trust, she

starts calling them and she's
like, actually, I kind of liked

it. It was fascinating to
realize that the people who are

positive and forward, even if it
wasn't their preference, they're

like, okay, they don't say
anything out there. But the

people, to your point, who want
to be heard, instead of doing it

in a constructive manner, let me
call the institutional leader,

have a conversation. Instead,
just go online and start going

Bezo, and so it gives the
impression that this is a much

bigger deal than it is. You
know, you're like, really? Like,

why, why, why do we need to do
that? And I and you know we have

all kinds of research that shows
that kind of public forums,

whether they're social media and
others, tend to thrive when

they're negative. That's how
they work,

Jessie Cruickshank: and it's
things that they kept they catch

our attention, right? They
create an emotional response in

us, and so we're more apt to pay
pay attention to them. So you

not only coach people how to
hold space, but I know that you

do this in your life as well. Do
you have an example, either from

someone else's life or your
life, like how it's made a

difference? Because I think it
it's a fair question to wonder

why embracing the pain, leaning
into the tension, staying silent

when you need to and you just
want to defend yourself, but

staying present to somebody that
might be a little scary? Why is

that worth it? Like, why is that
the better option than than the

estrangement, than the
distancing, than the cancel

culture, then the you know the
forever silence, not the pause.

Give me 2436 hours silence, but
like the, you know, I no, I need

three years.

Unknown: I don't think God can
work to create wholeness or

growth if we don't stay in it.
Like if we eject, then there's

no like God. At least I believe
that God chooses to work through

people. Like in general, right?
God's heart for a nation always

goes through the heart of a
person, as our friend Dave

Rhodes would always say. So if
if you're if you're called to a

people, if you're called to a
thing you care about, it's

always going to go through you
or a person, right? So if we

decide to take ourselves out of
something altogether. He can't

work his redemptive purposes
because we just took ourselves

out. So I think it's worth
staying in it to allow God to be

present and to create growth. It
may not always be wholeness. We

may not get to wholeness, but
there can be a redemptive arc

that's not under our control,
and/or we may never even see the

fullness of it. Having said
that, there are some

relationships that that's just a
lot harder to do than others,

you know. So, you know, I I'm
not saying, and I don't mean to

say sign up for being abused or
sign up for exhaustion or sign

up for, you know, whatever. I
let. What's the right way to

stay engaged? What's the help
like from your side of the

ledger? What do you need to
discern again with wise people?

The way to stay without that
being harmful to you, and there

is a way, but that but but
staying is the only way God's

God's going to be able to move
healing and redemption through

that arc, and we got to stay.

Jessie Cruickshank: I often say,
have as much relationship as you

can, like from wherever you're
at, however you are that week or

that day, like like if that's
every two weeks, then then every

two weeks. If that's once a
month, if that's you know

weekly, like like as much as you
can. And I find that you know

sometimes I have just people I
disciple that are a little more

taxing than others. It's nobody
listening to this, by the way.

But like, because those people
actually wouldn't be listening

to this podcast. But like,
people that the Lord has asked

me to journey with, who, oh my
gosh, they are. A little

exhausting, or maybe moderately
exhausting, and I'm like, they,

you know, and you see that they,
that you need to talk to them,

and, and I'm like, oh Lord, I'm
really tired today. You have to

give me grace for this call, or
give me permission to not take

this call, and, and sometimes
it's one, and sometimes it the

it's the other, but like I'm
like, okay, what is based on

being being honest and self
aware and honest with myself?

What does as much as I can look
like right now? And I find the

Lord really meets me in the
expectation He has for me, and I

grow. Right? I also grow. I'm
like, why am I so impatient? Why

am I, you know, feeling feeling
the feels I have about this?

Unknown: I because there's
certain friendships or

relationships that are always
just easy. They like feel like,

you know, we. I don't know.
Maybe we've disagreed on

something in our lives, but I
can't ever remember a time where

it didn't. You and I couldn't
like just have a really great

conversation. It's fluid and
it's easy. And even when you're

calling me out on something, I'm
like loving it. It's like you're

like,

Jessie Cruickshank: or vice
versa. We've helped each other,

Unknown: right? And I'm like a
golden achiever. I'm like, say

it again. Like, call me out on
it, Jesse. Like, it just feels

right. And then there's other
relationships that I have that I

absolutely value and are
committed to that are just

constantly hard, and I and I
think we as an individual have

to hold space with that reality
in our lives. Like that's not

I'm showing up as the same
person with you as I am with

this other relationship, and you
and I are able to move through

the world with with a lot of
grace and and oil in the gears,

right? And over here we got just
grit in the gears constantly,

but there's still a lot of love
and a reason God has me in this

relationship that says stay,
work it out, let God's

redemptive art play itself out
because you don't know where

it's gonna go. And I and I think
that's important for us to

realize. It's just you don't
live your life in such a way

where you say, "Well, if a
relationship's hard, it's just

not supposed to be for me."
Because look over here, I have

all these relationships that are
easy. So I'm just just supposed

to be in those. Well, no, like
same human relationships that

take different amounts of
presence work, prayer, and

you're called to all of you. You
are called to a multiplicity of

them, not all of them, but a
multiplicity of them, right? And

discerning that is part of the
work. Part of the work we're

called to do.

Jessie Cruickshank: I think we
do think if it's hard, we're

doing something wrong, or it's
wrong, or we shouldn't be in it,

or and we forget that there's
the place that God is trying to

grow me. There's the place the
enemy might be getting in the

middle, and you know, seeding
some lies, seeding some false

narratives, seeding some
disrespect and mistrust. Like,

like the enemy is an active role
in trying to break up

relationships. Huge, actually. I
think we we are completely blind

and ignorant to the way the
enemy is messing with our our

narratives in our head and our
perspective and and things like

that. And so when we give into
the narrative that you know

plays through our mind,
especially like worst case

scenario ones and things like
that, and we don't go to the

other person and say, "Hey, can
can we talk about something? I'm

feeling weird about this, or I
misunderstand that, or did you

really mean this?" Like then
then we can sort out, and we

don't require everybody to be
perfect. Like people can have a

bad day, people can say a stupid
thing, people can have an

immature moment, and people can
be in process, and they don't

have to be as afraid of losing
relationships just because

they're in process. And I think
that's the anxiety that your

daughters were feeling. I mean,
I know their relationships. I

feel that anxiety. Like, hey, do
I have to be 100% amazing and

on, or can I actually just be in
process in this relationship?

Unknown: You got to hold self.
You got to hold space with

yourself as much as you hold
space with other people. Right.

Like, you gotta allow your, you
gotta hold space when you're not

your best self. To don't go to
some shame space or like cancel

yourself as much as you're
supposed to, like hold space for

other people and don't shame
them. Like I like what you're

saying from the perspective of
like that's a hard thing to do

sometimes because I just want to
like shut down or give myself an

excuse that I'm out because I'm
not holding space with myself.

That's how I'm gonna get my out.
God's like, no, no, you don't

get to play that little card.
That's not a thing. I mean,

that's that's where the devil
back to that. The connection of

my mind is that's where the
devil wants to get into your

into into this as well, right?
Is to create doubts in you,

create shame in you, create like
all sorts of conflict in your in

yourself. That's where you got
to go back to those people who

you trust to say, like, help me
reset, help me see see what's

actually going on, because
likely, whatever story I'm

making up right then is probably
not true. Probably not true

enough.

Jessie Cruickshank: Probably,
probably not the accurate

version of probably

Unknown: not.

Jessie Cruickshank: Well, as a
mom with these beautiful early

daughters in their 20s, what do
you? I want you to think about

them for a second, and I want
you to dream for the world that

they could raise children in,
for because I know they're

they're they're probably closer
to that than you want and

further than they think they
are, but like, what would you

what would you want the
discourse around relationships

and conflict and holding space.
What would you what would you

want to have changed or evolved
in by the time that they have

kids, so that their daughters or
their children, when they're in

middle school, like what what
dream dream for dream for your

grandkids for a second.

Unknown: One one would be that
the public forum would be more

balanced than it is today. I
feel like maybe there was a

time, at least I've heard about
it. You know, even on like

Capitol Hill in the 50s,
wherever, where regardless of

your socioeconomic status, your
kids all went to school

together. You lived in the same
neighborhoods. You had

barbecues, even if you were on
the other side of the aisle in

the political party that you
were part of. So, if you were

senators or congresspersons,
like you were able to share life

together, and at the same time
disagree on issues that were

important to our country or to
the the people they represented.

I would like our grandchildren
to have more of that kind of

experience again, whether it's
because of wealth or because of

polarization. I don't know. We
tend to go into enclaves now.

Like we don't go to school
together, we don't eat at the

same restaurants, we don't have
a shared life together. That

would be my number one: is how
how could we? Because I think

when you're life on life with
people, it's really hard to

demonize them. Like there was
this article I need to find it

about how persons coming to the
United States for the World Cup

were really terrified of
America, like they were afraid

they were going to get murdered
or like you know have people

robbed and all this stuff. And
then they came and they're like,

Americans are really nice. Like
I had a hard time getting

somewhere, and someone gave me a
ride or bought me a meal or

helped me. And and and the whole
point of the article was America

as a distant concept was one
perception, and their perception

is scary. You're not good, but
when you met people and you had

a life on life experience with
the people, then you then there

was a sense of that ability to
see people as good and helpful,

and and people you want to get
to know more, and I think that

because we don't do life on life
anymore, institutionally in our

country, in our neighborhoods,
in our schools, I think we're

having a really hard time
getting past stereotypes and

past you know the ways of
putting people in boxes. So that

would be my my fast thinking
answer is I would love my

grandchildren to be able to
experience life wherever they

live, America or not, where
they're able to commune in

churches and neighborhoods and
schools with people they don't

agree with, but they love having
a hot dog with on the weekends

and swimming at the pool or
whatever they're doing, and that

that's also life giving.

Jessie Cruickshank: I like that
dream. I hope it's not a dream.

I hope it's I hope it's a place
that that you know we can we can

get to. You know that'll it'll
take all of us and some

different valuing some different
things than we value right now

as a society, but yeah, that
would be beautiful. I would like

that place. I want to go. Let's
do it. I would

Unknown: like that place too.
Yeah.

Jessie Cruickshank: Oh my gosh.
Well, Kel, I just really, really

appreciate having you with me
today and hanging out, and I

love the way that you stimulate
my thinking and stir me up, and

it's just what I really enjoy
about you. So,

Unknown: well, for everyone
listening, I feel like this was

just a luxury to get to have a
conversation with my friend

Jesse. So, thank you for
indulging us and the opportunity

to think. Together to think well
and and look forward to hearing

what you think as you interact
back with this with Jesse and

her work because gosh I'm sure
all of you listening will have

even more ways to help us think
about holding space and what

that means for us as disciples
today

Jessie Cruickshank: and I just
want to encourage everyone who's

listening, as you go out this
week, find a place where you

could hear the Holy Spirit
challenging you to just hold

space, just a little, a little
more space, a little longer, a

little broader, maybe somebody a
little more challenging. We used

to call those grace grower
people. Like it used to have

like a name and it was seen as a
gift and a positive, and yeah.

So just want to encourage you to
to be present to yourself, be

present to what the Holy Spirit
might be saying, and be present

to maybe somebody that that
might feel a little tension, a

little anxiety, a little
challenging to do. So we want to

thank you for listening to the
Ordinary Discipleship podcast.

And as always, you can go to
hoology.co for more information.

That's w h o o l o g y. co, and
if you go and you feel free to

look for and download the
identity formation table, and

that's a free giveaway that
we're doing right now. So just

happy to share that with you, so
we can see how we understand

ourselves and how we understand
God at every phase of human

development. Thanks so much.
We'll catch you next time.