Ego Depletion, Transparency, and Tang

Greg and Adam explain ego depletion, a social experiment on ethics, and transparency. They also pontificate on ways to replenish depleted egos and why making ethical decisions is affected by this depletion.

Meet Your Hosts

Greg Kyte, CPA
Twitter: https://twitter.com/gregkyte
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gregkyte/

Adam Broud
Twitter: https://twitter.com/adambroud
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adam-broud-18870a198

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Transcript available upon request (email [e-mail]) 

Creators & Guests

Host

Adam Broud

Host

Greg Kyte, CPA

What is CENSORED Ethics?

Welcome to Ethics that doesn't suck! CPA and comedian Greg Kyte teams up with MBA and comedian Adam Broud to discuss the intricacies of behavioral ethics — sociological nudges that prime people to behave more ethically or less ethically. During their lively conversations, they draw on research from psychology and economics.

Attention: This is a machine-generated transcript. As such, there may be spelling, grammar, and accuracy errors throughout. Thank you for your understanding!

Adam Broud: [00:00:00] I like ego depletion because it really I'm able to translate this into procrastination for different things. I mean, I'm not going to do this, especially not now. I probably have bigger things to think about later on in my life.

Greg Kyte: [00:00:10] I might murder someone if I if I try to do Sudoku.

Adam Broud: [00:00:13] You know how every day Dan gets me? You know how Dan? Dan, Every day we want to murder people. And you're just trying not to murder people every minute of the day. That's ego depletion.

Greg Kyte: [00:00:26] Hey, thanks for listening to Ethics. If you would like to earn behavioral ethics for listening to this podcast, there is now a premium course available for purchase on the earmark app. Just go to earmark cpe com or download the earmark app from the App Store or from the Google Play store. And now raise your glass to this episode of Ethics. Zeros in. Accountants have the responsibility to uphold accountability, transparency and ensure ethical decision making.

Adam Broud: [00:01:05] And are expected to support fair and reliable financial reporting and disclosures in support of the public interest.

Greg Kyte: [00:01:12] Hello and welcome to Ethics. I'm Greg Kite. I am a licensed CPA in the great state of Utah.

Adam Broud: [00:01:19] And I'm Adam Browde. I have a masters in business administration from Brigham Young University.

Greg Kyte: [00:01:24] Ethics is the only certified course where the presenters get more and more, while at the same time discussing the intricacies of behavioral ethics.

Adam Broud: [00:01:34] Today's episode is ego depletion, transparency and.

Greg Kyte: [00:01:38] We are going to take seven during the course of this one hour podcast. So Adam, let's just get this first one out of the way right now. Bottoms up. It's like poison.

Adam Broud: [00:01:53] That is the second time I've ever had that.

Greg Kyte: [00:01:56] Right on. Well, welcome. Welcome to a whole new world.

Adam Broud: [00:02:01] Adam Browne, Second time. And I'm going to go all the way till my eighth time of having just today. So fun. Um. Oh, good.

Greg Kyte: [00:02:12] Do you see where we're at? No, we. We also have another.

Adam Broud: [00:02:16] We. Oh, yeah. There we go. There it is. We also have another person in the studio with us today, the wonderful Crystal Poloa. She is in charge of our fate when she rings the bell. We have to take another.

Greg Kyte: [00:02:26] And for today's podcast, we are Sparkle donkey.

Adam Broud: [00:02:32] They are not a sponsor. We are poor.

Greg Kyte: [00:02:34] They. But they. They do sparkle. And it is too. And I liked.

Adam Broud: [00:02:40] That. That was actually pretty good. This is.

Greg Kyte: [00:02:41] This. This might be the best I've ever had.

Adam Broud: [00:02:44] It was better than the other that I had one time.

Greg Kyte: [00:02:47] Did it. It's like it's got a little sweetness to it. Yeah. Hopefully they will be a sponsor now that they. Yeah. And seriously. Okay, real quick, real quick story. So I found this to when Crystal and I were on a trip to Jackson Hole, we stopped at several stores on the way there, on the way back in search for a completely different type of of booze. And when I found Sparkle Donkey. El Burro Sparkle, I was like, I can't not pick that up. So it's just been sitting on a shelf.

Adam Broud: [00:03:16] It is a beautiful looking as well. It is really pretty.

Greg Kyte: [00:03:19] And and here's so here's another fun fact. I don't know if you knew this about I don't.

Adam Broud: [00:03:24] Know most things, too.

Greg Kyte: [00:03:25] Okay. First off, do you know is made from blue agave.

Adam Broud: [00:03:29] I did know that.

Greg Kyte: [00:03:30] And do you know that it's only manufactured in certain parts of Mexico?

Adam Broud: [00:03:34] Oh, for.

Greg Kyte: [00:03:34] Real? Yeah, and I believe so. I believe in terms of ethics. I believe it is unethical for one to call to. If it's not made in those certain parts of Mexico. And it's definitely unethical for them to call if it's not made from blue agave. Interesting. Otherwise it needs to be called.

Adam Broud: [00:03:54] Which I've actually never had.

Greg Kyte: [00:03:56] So it's like clean water.

Adam Broud: [00:03:57] Right. Right.

Greg Kyte: [00:03:58] Yeah, it's same kind of thing. There's ethics everywhere. But. But the weird thing is, again, would it be unethical to make something from, I don't know, purple agave and say that it's still. How would you interpret that yourself? Think in terms of the ethics of and versus.

Adam Broud: [00:04:16] I think it's just unethical to gatekeep the word to in general. We all know what it means. So just like just call it all too.

Greg Kyte: [00:04:24] Does it taste like hot then? It's don't don't, don't church it up.

Adam Broud: [00:04:30] I think just don't give too much to talk about is the problem because I feel like this conversation has probably happened a thousand times right after people took their first shot of tea. Yeah. And and. And you just need to come together like the the the Capulets and the Montagues and overcome their differences.

Greg Kyte: [00:04:48] You are so not going to be quoting or citing Shakespeare.

Adam Broud: [00:04:53] I plan.

Greg Kyte: [00:04:53] On in in about 20.

Adam Broud: [00:04:55] Minutes. I plan on citing a different Shakespearean play for each. This one is Romeo and Juliet. Just wait. What's to.

Greg Kyte: [00:05:02] Come? Love it. Now to get into it, we got two main topics we're talking about. The first one today is called ego depletion. Real quick, Adam, one of the things I love about having one of the many things I love about having you here on the podcast is that you have a background in psychology. Yes, it wasn't your undergrad degree was in psychology.

Adam Broud: [00:05:20] Yes, my undergrad was psychology.

Greg Kyte: [00:05:22] I have one undergrad in mathematics, very different from psychology. Another one in accounting, also very different from psychology.

Adam Broud: [00:05:29] I'm amazed that even with those degrees, you still understand humans. I think that's very impressive.

Greg Kyte: [00:05:34] Yeah, well, last time you were like, Oh, I get. I get accounting ethics. You guys are supposed to be a robot.

Adam Broud: [00:05:40] That's true.

Greg Kyte: [00:05:40] And that that's I think that's a that's a wonderful insight.

Adam Broud: [00:05:44] Yeah, that I said that before three. And after that, you can't quote me back to myself because I don't know that I remember much of it. This podcast is very fun. It's fun to get paid to get. It feels like being a hot girl at a bar is what it feels like, right? Yeah. This is fun.

Greg Kyte: [00:05:58] Never before. Well, honestly, for an accounting for something that's accounting CPA, you are the hot girl at the bar. But let's get So ego depletion. It's a it's a term that's not that most people don't know the term, but most people, I think, at least have some kind of concept of the idea behind the term of ego depletion, ego depletion.

Adam Broud: [00:06:18] When you call your ego. And no, it's I mean, I know what the ego is. Right, Right, right. But is it that is it that deep or we're talking like it and probably not.

Greg Kyte: [00:06:28] Well, no, I think it is. Okay. So so real quick and you stop me when I'm wrong. Real quick. Refresher course on Freudian psychology is there's three portions of the of the psyche, correct? There's the ID, which is like the animal brain. Like all I want to do is hunt and eat. Right, right, right, right, right. Is that is that. I think that's what Freud I think.

Adam Broud: [00:06:48] Freud would probably say that and he'd be like, hell yeah, that's exactly what he.

Greg Kyte: [00:06:52] Would say. Oh but yes, Hells yes, that's correct.

Adam Broud: [00:06:55] If anything, he'd be like, But mostly just your mother, right? He'd he'd insert. I don't want to say the word insert.

Greg Kyte: [00:07:02] Right. Yeah, that's. Yeah. Good, good call. And then there's the superego, which is the part of you that's like, if I understand and maybe I need some clarification, the superego is like, you're super logical side where it's like, I need this is, this is what's right, this is what makes sense.

Adam Broud: [00:07:17] That's what I remember. Okay.

Greg Kyte: [00:07:18] Yes. And then the ego is really what moderates you between the two things, which makes sure that the ID doesn't go too hard towards.

Adam Broud: [00:07:26] And Eaton is that social filter. Yeah.

Greg Kyte: [00:07:28] And it and it also regulates you from going too hard into this just keeps us from being human robots is.

Adam Broud: [00:07:34] What keeps you in check.

Greg Kyte: [00:07:35] Yeah and so ego depletion, the idea of ego depletion is this is that humans have a limited supply of willpower on any given day or any given period of time. And as you use up your finite supply of willpower, then your ego gets tired.

Adam Broud: [00:07:52] Yeah, it can only say no so many times. That's kind of what it is, right?

Greg Kyte: [00:07:55] Right. And I think the idea is that the ego is basically your self control. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cool. So we got that. And this actually comes to our snacks today because trying to be an ethical and responsible person who's having a friend over to get him crazy in 50 minutes. Yeah, I do have some things for us to eat because it's always good to.

Adam Broud: [00:08:14] Have things is a good description of some of what is in front of us. Yes, these.

Greg Kyte: [00:08:18] Come from the original experiment from the late 1980s and that's a weird thing. Ego depletion was not labeled as such until the late 1980s where I was going. Why wasn't it a thing that was labeled in like.

Adam Broud: [00:08:31] Brains didn't exist before the 80s.

Greg Kyte: [00:08:33] Get some. It's weird, but but here's what the the the experimenter did there is he he had people Oh, there's a. Is the bell. Here we go. Number two, Sparkle donkey. It really is like the smoothest two I've ever had in my life.

Adam Broud: [00:08:52] I overfilled my glass. You did?

Greg Kyte: [00:08:54] Yep, you did. But it's really not bad. No. So in the in the in the original experiment for ego depletion, what they did, what the experimenter did is he had. He had fresh baked cookies. Oh, yum. And the fresh baked cookies don't have fresh baked cookies. But not only were they fresh baked, they like baked them in the room where the the people who were in the experiment were. So it smelled like fresh baked cookies.

Adam Broud: [00:09:16] Already know enough about psychology to know that if there's fresh baked cookies in this, it means and they also had get this a steaming pile of CENSORED and they made people eat that. And that's like what every psychology experience is. It's like, picture this, a really nice situation. Everyone's like, That's so nice. And then they made them do this horrible thing that everyone's going to be embarrassed to say that they're a part of. So what did they do?

Greg Kyte: [00:09:38] So they had the fresh baked cookies. There you go. And it smelled like fresh baked cookies. And then they also had a plate full of radishes. Is what And they and like randomly, they told some people in the experiment, you get to eat cookies as many cookies as you want.

Adam Broud: [00:09:54] Psychologists are the worst.

Greg Kyte: [00:09:55] And the other group was like, you have to eat radishes.

Adam Broud: [00:09:58] Yeah. And everyone was probably thrilled with either decision. Yeah, right, right.

Greg Kyte: [00:10:02] But apparently there was still in this experiment the people like could. It was like, you have to eat the radishes. Yeah, but you'll get rewarded if you only eat the radishes. You'll get punished somehow, you know, or you won't get the reward if you eat the cookies.

Adam Broud: [00:10:17] So it feels very psychological, right? Right. Even the cookies are not as good as you wish they could be. And this is life. This is a reflection on life.

Greg Kyte: [00:10:25] And I assume for the cookie people, it'd be like, hey, you can go ahead and knock yourself out, out on the radishes. Yeah, but you'll get you won't get as much of a reward if you just stick with the cookies. So it wasn't like a thing. But then after that, the food part of the experiment went away. And then they forced all the people to trace a They're like, You have to trace this design on this piece of paper. It was very intricate design, and it was one of those things where you can't lift your pencil off the paper to trace it and they're like, You, you win. If you can trace the entire thing without lifting your pencil off the paper. And the thing that the people in the experiment didn't know is it was impossible. It was impossible to to to complete it.

Adam Broud: [00:11:07] You have to lift it. Yeah. Yeah. Gotcha.

Greg Kyte: [00:11:09] Yeah, exactly. But it was so you couldn't really tell that unless you knew it ahead of time.

Adam Broud: [00:11:14] Also, what I love about psychological experiences is that they perfectly reflect life. You know how when you're sitting somewhere and someone's like, you can only eat turnips and then they have and then they have you trace a.

Greg Kyte: [00:11:23] Picture, right?

Adam Broud: [00:11:24] Typical. Yeah, that was.

Greg Kyte: [00:11:25] That was Tuesday for me at work. It's weird. My boss is weird. Yeah. So. But but what they what they were recording was how long.

Adam Broud: [00:11:35] How much time you spend on it.

Greg Kyte: [00:11:36] How long they would before they gave up. They go how much time you spent trying to trace this and how many attempts you took to trace it. Okay. And it was nearly for the people who got to eat cookies. Yeah, it was like double. They double the amount of tries, double the amount of time they spent trying to do the trying.

Adam Broud: [00:11:53] To eat cookies. You wanted to try harder.

Greg Kyte: [00:11:55] Yeah, well, but it wasn't so much that it was that if you had you used up your self-control eating those CENSORED radishes.

Adam Broud: [00:12:04] And so.

Greg Kyte: [00:12:05] At the end of that, you just you didn't have the.

Adam Broud: [00:12:07] Because your ego kept telling you, hey, no, we're eating radishes. It's like it smells so good in here that by the time it's like and now I have to do this crappy art project, you're like, No, I'm going to bounce, right? That's what it was.

Greg Kyte: [00:12:19] Yeah, exactly. And so, so the idea so really and it's not technically true, but, but the idea was that the cookie group was the control group and the radish group was the experimental group and the. It's not a perfect control.

Adam Broud: [00:12:33] No, it doesn't feel like it.

Greg Kyte: [00:12:34] No, but I mean, there had to be some third group that was like we got no food and had to trace.

Adam Broud: [00:12:39] And those are some of my favorite ones is when it's like and then there was a control group who just like sat around for half an hour and we just watched them. Right.

Greg Kyte: [00:12:46] That's it. Right. So, so, so that was that was supposed to be the initial display of ego depletion. And so because of that, the snacks I have here today, I couldn't find my grocery store, did not have radishes, but they had they had turnips.

Adam Broud: [00:13:01] They had turnips.

Greg Kyte: [00:13:02] Yeah. And so so, Adam, you during this entire podcast, you can only eat the turnips or you don't get paid for the podcast CENSORED. No, You signed. You signed. No. And if you eat one frickin Reese's Pieces, which is one of your favorite candies. That's true. You get you get no money.

Adam Broud: [00:13:22] For.

Greg Kyte: [00:13:23] This podcast. So we'll see how long you can last on that.

Adam Broud: [00:13:25] But you don't even know how. You have no understanding of who I am because I am only going to eat Reese's Pieces this whole time. Okay. Because let me just let me just say, if I was in that study, my trust for authority is so low that if someone was like, you can have this, but then later there's going to be a reward, I'd be like, I'll only trust what's in front of you right now. The only thing you could do, especially for psychologists.

Greg Kyte: [00:13:48] While you were talking, I ate a bite of a turnip.

Adam Broud: [00:13:51] Terrible decision.

Greg Kyte: [00:13:52] They're not good. You're like.

Adam Broud: [00:13:54] Yeah, you need to to wash out the bad turnip taste. I do. That's how bad time to take another.

Greg Kyte: [00:13:59] Can we.

Adam Broud: [00:14:00] Anyways.

Greg Kyte: [00:14:01] Don't have anything to wash ego depletion.

Adam Broud: [00:14:04] Did you know that Obama this is at least this is what I heard. Obama wore like the exact same thing every single day to avoid ego depletion. Have you heard this before?

Greg Kyte: [00:14:12] No, I haven't.

Adam Broud: [00:14:13] That or it was either that or he had someone else pick out his clothes. I can't remember which it is, but basically he said that he wanted to limit the amount and maybe I'm completely off and people who are listening to this can like comment or whatever, but I'm pretty sure he said that way he can limit the amount of decisions he was making in a day so that the bigger ones came up. He wasn't just like, Sure, nuke em and like move on with his life. Like he was just like, Well, I didn't choose my suit today, so I can actually say, don't nuke them. Okay, I can stop with that.

Greg Kyte: [00:14:40] Let's get back to that in just a second.

Adam Broud: [00:14:42] I also do the exact same thing. I wear almost the exact same outfit every single day for the same reason, because I think of myself as highly as the president of the United States of America.

Greg Kyte: [00:14:51] As you should, because what do you what's your day job?

Adam Broud: [00:14:53] My day job is writing silly ads and making jokes and telling them on stage.

Greg Kyte: [00:14:57] And you want to make sure you're you're not ethically and morally compromised.

Adam Broud: [00:15:01] Yeah, that's.

Greg Kyte: [00:15:01] Why that Well, let's let's get specifically to some to some professional ethics. Okay. So the guy that I that I refer to tons and tons throughout all of the ethical training that I do is a gentleman named Dan Ariely. Which fun fact, I got to meet him. I actually interviewed him on a.

Adam Broud: [00:15:17] Yeah, I've never heard of him.

Greg Kyte: [00:15:19] On an old podcast. Dan Ariely That's what I almost have it. And I so badly wanted this guy to like me. Like I was like, I'm going to be funny and I'm going to be funny. He was so annoyed with me throughout the entire No, he like, seriously because he is a college professor and I totally got the vibe off of him the entire time I was interviewing, where he was like, Hey, how about you just stop talking? Oh, here we go. There's the tone. Finally, this turnip. Uh.

Adam Broud: [00:15:45] I don't know why three is always the easiest one.

Greg Kyte: [00:15:47] That was seriously this this sparkle donkey. I can't recommend it enough. So yeah. So he was like, You're not funny and you're talking too much. How about you shut up and let me say what I'm what I'm what I want to say.

Adam Broud: [00:15:58] Dan, if you're listening to this, Greg is a delight and you've been a second chance.

Greg Kyte: [00:16:02] Thank you. Yeah, but here's what he says in his book, The Honest Truth About Dishonesty. He says, If you wear down your willpower, you will have considerably more trouble regulating your desires, and that difficulty can wear down your honesty as well. Oh, we are continually tempted throughout the day and our ability to fight this temptation weakens with time and accumulated resistance.

Adam Broud: [00:16:24] So he thinks we just default to being liar, liar, pants on fire type people.

Greg Kyte: [00:16:28] Yeah, well, I think it.

Adam Broud: [00:16:30] Takes more courage or will to be able to like, tell the truth when you're tempted to lie. Yeah.

Greg Kyte: [00:16:34] And if you're tempted to lie over and over, if there's.

Adam Broud: [00:16:37] Mostly makes me feel like Dan's a bad person. That's what that quote makes. Dan is like, you know how we all want to lie constantly. You know how you're just on the. It's like a Freudian thing where it's like, you know how you want to have with your mom. And everyone's.

Greg Kyte: [00:16:49] Like.

Adam Broud: [00:16:49] No, what? He's like, Well, let's move past this. Yeah.

Greg Kyte: [00:16:52] Okay. But my bigger point, I'm sure you're a good guy.

Adam Broud: [00:16:54] Dan, Dan, if you're listening to this, listen to how nice Greg is being to you and how mean I am, right? Because compare that to the light. Yeah, I'm a CENSORED. Don't hang out with me.

Greg Kyte: [00:17:02] Give me a second. Maybe Dan had had a bad day before he got on the podcast. Maybe. Maybe his ego had been depleted. But here's here's the thing. Here's how he backs up his claim. He as a behavioral psychologist. A behavioral economist, yes, he did an experiment with people. And here's the experiment. And I have the picture on your paper. Oh, yeah. You have to. So so the the experiment was this. He has a box, a square. There's a line that goes through the middle of the square, dividing it in half, boxing dots. And then there's. Yeah. Just random. The dots are random. Okay. They're there. So what this was the this was the graphic that came up. The only thing that changed every time the graphic came up was the the dots and where they were in the boxes. I think even maybe the number of dots changed every time. Okay. But but he did this experiment. So if you came.

Adam Broud: [00:17:43] Up different dots, different locations.

Greg Kyte: [00:17:45] Okay. And you had one, you got to look at the you got to look at the square with dots. Yes. For exactly one second. Okay. And then after looking at it for one second, you had to decide whether you believe there was more dots on the right hand side or on the left hand side of the box. And that's and that was the whole thing.

Adam Broud: [00:18:03] I looked at this for like 30s now and I still couldn't tell you.

Greg Kyte: [00:18:05] Yeah. And you know, I've used this. Maybe I'm an accountant and I've used this graphic innumerable times. I have never taken the time to count the dots to figure out which one, which I think is. I think that's a betrayal of my profession. No, I've.

Adam Broud: [00:18:18] Never. That's good, because that would deplete your ego. You got bigger questions. Oh, gotcha. Gotcha. That's good. Yeah.

Greg Kyte: [00:18:23] Yeah.

Adam Broud: [00:18:24] So this is also okay. I like ego depletion because it really I'm able to translate this into procrastination for different things. I mean, I'm not going to do this, especially not now. I probably have bigger things to think about later on in my life.

Greg Kyte: [00:18:36] I might murder someone if I if I try to do Sudoku.

Adam Broud: [00:18:40] You know how every day Dan gets me. You know how Dan? Dan, Every day we want to murder people. And you're just trying not to murder people every minute of the day. That's ego depletion, right?

Greg Kyte: [00:18:49] So, okay, so here's how. So so far, you understand the concept of what these people were supposed to do. Yeah. The way that he depleted their ego was thusly. Okay. Is that if you so so your job and what your question was is there's more dots on which side of this box. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so your job was to either click left or right, but you got paid a half a cent every time you said that there was more on the right side, you got paid $0.05 Every time you click that there was more on the left side. Okay, so your job was to say which side had more dots. Your compensation was based on whether you were clicking right or left, regardless of where the dots were.

Adam Broud: [00:19:31] Tricky, tricky. And I like this one. And not only that.

Greg Kyte: [00:19:34] You signed up to do this for an hour of your of your life. So you're seeing the graphic for one second and you have to respond right or left.

Adam Broud: [00:19:44] I don't know if this is true, but I think this is the same way you get Bitcoin, I'm pretty sure. Is that right?

Greg Kyte: [00:19:50] That is this is my. And he actually mined a bunch of bitcoin this way and he did not that's how he funded his experiment.

Adam Broud: [00:19:57] So so one experiment.

Greg Kyte: [00:19:59] What he found was that was good. What he found was that after a certain amount of time and apparently it varied greatly from from individual to individual. But over the course of the hour, it sounds like without exception, there would come a point where they're clearly very interested in going and doing the experiment right of going right or left. And then at some point, everyone or nearly everyone just fell off a cliff where they were like going, screw this experiment, give.

Adam Broud: [00:20:24] Me my money.

Greg Kyte: [00:20:25] Why the hell did I sign up for this? And they a student and they paid. They were just going left, left, left, left.

Adam Broud: [00:20:32] I love that it only cost $0.05 to make someone be dishonest. Well, but granted, the stakes for dishonesty very low. Right. But still $0.05. And you're like, Yeah, it's.

Greg Kyte: [00:20:41] Fine, but it's also an hour that you're doing.

Adam Broud: [00:20:44] In it for so long.

Greg Kyte: [00:20:45] It's so long. And I could see where that would just completely erode.

Adam Broud: [00:20:49] Realize I just said that's so long in our podcast is one hour and listeners are like, You're killing me, buddy.

Greg Kyte: [00:20:55] So and so here's the question Were those people in that experiment, were they being dishonest by clicking left?

Adam Broud: [00:21:03] I feel like their honesty would be dependent on their report afterwards. Like if you ask them like, did you respond to this the way that we asked? Or I guess if they agreed up front like, Oh yes, I will answer in this way, right? I would say, yeah, they're being dishonest, right?

Greg Kyte: [00:21:19] Well, and I think so again, in my I wasn't part of the experiment, but in my mind, the way the experiment works is you see the graphic you were.

Adam Broud: [00:21:25] Thanks for telling me you weren't a part of the experiment. I wasn't a part of it. This isn't I would love if you were. And you're like, was I being dishonest? I still don't know. I need. I need.

Greg Kyte: [00:21:34] Help. I feel so tortured internally.

Adam Broud: [00:21:37] I still can't eat cookies to this day. I'm still eating turnips.

Greg Kyte: [00:21:40] But they saw the graphic for again one second. And then I think after that, in my mind, the question came up Were there more dots on the right or the left? Yeah. So then you were lying. If there was clearly more dots on the right and you still clicked left? Yeah, you were at that point, you were 100% lying. So you were being unethical. Yeah. You.

Adam Broud: [00:21:57] You were lying to get the money. Yeah, exactly. Which accountants? That is directly applicable.

Greg Kyte: [00:22:02] Exactly. So. So we have experimental evidence that people are being dishonest when their ego is depleted. I want.

Adam Broud: [00:22:11] To point out I haven't eaten any turnips and I haven't eaten any Reese's.

Greg Kyte: [00:22:14] Pieces. Will you try one? They're horrible.

Adam Broud: [00:22:16] No, don't just.

Greg Kyte: [00:22:17] Give it a shot.

Adam Broud: [00:22:18] I found the loophole in your experiment and that I don't have to eat either one.

Greg Kyte: [00:22:21] You don't have to eat either.

Adam Broud: [00:22:22] I should still get the money.

Greg Kyte: [00:22:24] Well, maybe you will. I'm going to see if those. If those Reese's pieces erode your, uh, your self-control.

Adam Broud: [00:22:31] No, don't eat them in front of me. I do. I do feel my ego being depleted in a funny way, where at first I.

Greg Kyte: [00:22:36] Was like, let's do asMr real quick.

Adam Broud: [00:22:38] No gross. No one wants. Oh, oh, there we go.

Greg Kyte: [00:22:40] And now I have to wash these down with Sparkle Donkey.

Adam Broud: [00:22:43] It's so funny. At two shots. I'm still excited at three, I'm still excited. It's after four that I'm like, Oh CENSORED, we're doing this more. Is this.

Greg Kyte: [00:22:49] Four? Wow.

Adam Broud: [00:22:54] Um. My ego is being depleted in a way that I like. At the beginning I was like. There's no way I'm eating a turnip. But now I'm at least enough that I'm like, I might eat a turnip. What's it gonna do to me?

Greg Kyte: [00:23:05] Your ego is being depleted the wrong way. The wrong way. Like. Like peer pressure could work. Come on, man. Eat a.

Adam Broud: [00:23:09] Turnip. Before my ego was like, There's no way you want to eat one of those. Do you want to? And now my. It is like you can eat a turnip. Do you want.

Greg Kyte: [00:23:15] To die without ever having the experience of eating a turnip raw? No, I mean room temperature, raw turnip, no dip. Come on.

Adam Broud: [00:23:22] Room temperature. Farm to table, though.

Greg Kyte: [00:23:25] Well, farm to grocery store to fridge for a couple of days to cutting board to table back to accountants.

Adam Broud: [00:23:32] Yes.

Greg Kyte: [00:23:33] One of the things.

Adam Broud: [00:23:34] That coming at you.

Greg Kyte: [00:23:35] Guys, I feel is so important about ego depletion with accountants is we totally are horrible about depleting our ego during busy season.

Adam Broud: [00:23:43] Oh, because you're constantly. Yeah, you guys are busy. I mean, I'm sure you're busy a lot, but especially one time of year. You guys, like, go crazy?

Greg Kyte: [00:23:51] Yeah, for basically a three month period where.

Adam Broud: [00:23:54] That Q one experience.

Greg Kyte: [00:23:55] We are. Yeah, we pretty close. We're just we are intentionally like, like ruining ourselves in terms of our ego depletion. There are firms fortunately I don't I worked in a firm for one year and then I got hired away and now I'm the in-house CPA for a group of medical office buildings. Yeah, that was very difficult to say. Group of medical office buildings. The but, but, but from what I know from people who do work, especially in tax. Yeah. In accounting firms but also in audit is during busy season you're expected to clock often not every every firm but often you're expected to clock 60 plus billable hours every week for your job, which means that's just work that you can charge back to a client. It doesn't include like checking emails and going to the bathroom.

Adam Broud: [00:24:42] Or doing the thing that I'm really surprised you guys have to do. At the same time as you're preparing taxes is you have to approve my budgeting that I send your way. And if your ego is depleted, why are you guys always such and approving all my budget each year during.

Greg Kyte: [00:24:57] Q1 for Oh, we should just be ego depleted?

Adam Broud: [00:25:00] You would think I could put anything out there and you would be like, That looks good to me. But instead I feel like it's very much so. I think it.

Greg Kyte: [00:25:05] Could be it could be like, I don't have time to look at this. No, make it less.

Adam Broud: [00:25:09] Oh, I feel like I feel like most accountants I've known, they maybe they don't look at it, but they just assume that it's bad and they always send it back to me like, oh, too much.

Greg Kyte: [00:25:16] Oh, absolutely.

Adam Broud: [00:25:17] Well, I'm like, Oh really?

Greg Kyte: [00:25:18] My official job title is comptroller, which means I'm supposed to control spending. So my job is to say how much you want to spend. How can we spend less? Yeah. And do you know I actually call myself technically a comptroller because I can come up with my own title because A, I think it's funnier and B, technically it's just the German word for comptroller, so. Oh, really? There you go.

Adam Broud: [00:25:39] So, Comptroller.

Greg Kyte: [00:25:41] Comptroller, Comptroller. Hello. I am here. Comptroller Kate. So, okay, how do we here's I've got a few things, actually. Maybe you saw the cheat sheet ahead of time. Don't look at it right now. All right. What do you think people can do to to replenish their ego, to get their self control stronger after it's been depleted? Because there are some studies that show a few things that you can do.

Adam Broud: [00:26:03] Yeah, you can do a couple of things. What do you think you can like go for a long walk? Okay. Or you can take some personal time, a little self-care. Okay. Or once again, back to Freud. You can go have sex with your mother. It's an option. You're not going to give the people all the options. Great. It's unethical to limit people just because you have a disagreement with the fundamental psychology of it.

Greg Kyte: [00:26:25] Greg Okay, here's the things that are that we've really found that can help replenish ego.

Adam Broud: [00:26:29] Sponsored by Sparkle Donkey.

Greg Kyte: [00:26:32] Gosh.

Adam Broud: [00:26:33] For the.

Greg Kyte: [00:26:35] Okay, so here's four things that come up that can that can replenish one's replenish your ego. One very clear recovery period is just just just because basically when people think about typically when people think about ego depletion, they're talking about in a given day, you've got a limited supply of willpower in a given day. I see that with with eating when I'm trying to eat right in the mornings from from when I wake up till about 530 or 6 in the evening, I can eat exactly the diet that I mean to. And then at that point, I think my ego gets depleted and I eat all the Doritos. That's why. And and Reese's pieces. That's why I.

Adam Broud: [00:27:14] Decide what I'm going to eat for lunch in the morning.

Greg Kyte: [00:27:16] That's true. Is it?

Adam Broud: [00:27:17] Yeah, that's part of it.

Greg Kyte: [00:27:18] But then the next day I'm.

Adam Broud: [00:27:20] I never decide what I'm going to eat for dinner and I, I eat the steaming pile of CENSORED that the psychologist offered me for dinner every single time.

Greg Kyte: [00:27:26] You eat the.

Adam Broud: [00:27:26] Turnips. Yeah, I really do. Like, I just eat terribly.

Greg Kyte: [00:27:29] But. But here's the other crazy thing that I noticed is on the days when I am good the entire day and I go to bed and I go, okay, today I ate exactly the way I'm supposed to the next morning. I'm not depleted. I can I can start off the next day because I had a recovery period.

Adam Broud: [00:27:41] Is that different from latency period?

Greg Kyte: [00:27:44] I don't know. Oh, the the next thing to think about how.

Adam Broud: [00:27:49] Much sparkle is in this donkey. I'm feeling great.

Greg Kyte: [00:27:53] The two other things that I think are kind of stupid, but but this is what I found in my research that can help us deplete one's ego is our comedy videos, UN deplete can replenish, refill, replenish comedy videos and surprise gifts. Comedy videos. Yeah. Like like like here's a cat video from YouTube. Watch this and then you'll have more self control.

Adam Broud: [00:28:13] So when I'm scrolling TikTok at work, I should just let people know. No, no, no. This is how I'm re I'm re under punishing my ego.

Greg Kyte: [00:28:23] Either I scroll TikTok or I or I embezzle. You make the.

Adam Broud: [00:28:27] Choice.

Greg Kyte: [00:28:27] So. Or a surprise gift. And a surprise gift to me makes a little bit better.

Adam Broud: [00:28:31] Gift or a surprise gift. Gift.

Greg Kyte: [00:28:33] Surprise, gift. Okay.

Adam Broud: [00:28:35] Cat videos or cat gifts and then cat gifts.

Greg Kyte: [00:28:38] No, a surprise gift where it's like, hey, surprise.

Adam Broud: [00:28:42] I call them gifts.

Greg Kyte: [00:28:43] Here's a what's do you get? Do you ever get gifts from your from your employer?

Adam Broud: [00:28:47] Like from my employer? Yeah.

Greg Kyte: [00:28:49] No, because see, again, accountants, they do this during busy season. They're doing everything they can to like, make people less hurt about busy season. So it's actually fairly common to go, Hey guys, we just ordered an amazing lunch for everybody. Come get your amazing lunch and and fill your bellies and then go back to to your schedule.

Adam Broud: [00:29:10] You're telling me employers give you free lunch because they want something from you in exchange? Exactly. Just a trick.

Greg Kyte: [00:29:17] Exactly. And then. And even more so I believe that I heard a friend who was at a firm who their their not infrequent gift during busy season is, hey, here's a hostess fruit pie and a monster energy drink.

Adam Broud: [00:29:32] Keep is much less curtain for what the desire is.

Greg Kyte: [00:29:36] But again but another thing that will replenish give.

Adam Broud: [00:29:39] You guys a free gift basket of apples for tax season. Here's your gift.

Greg Kyte: [00:29:45] And here's five. Awesome. We're going to be so deep before we get to the.

Adam Broud: [00:29:52] Second I make a face each time I it like I genuinely enjoy it, but I can't not make a face for some reason.

Greg Kyte: [00:29:57] Here's the okay so back to the the monster energy drink and the hostess fruit pie.

Adam Broud: [00:30:03] Bring it back now.

Greg Kyte: [00:30:03] Y'all another thing that they've said. Yeah, do it. Tell me how horrible it is. Are right.

Adam Broud: [00:30:12] If dirt could pick, this is what it tastes like. Oh, my CENSORED. This is awful, isn't it?

Greg Kyte: [00:30:17] The worst? I'd never had a turnip before.

Adam Broud: [00:30:19] I took dirt, urinated. It would urinate turnips. Oh, my goodness. Why do we keep these?

Greg Kyte: [00:30:24] I don't know. I'm going to.

Adam Broud: [00:30:25] Science not moved us past the turnip.

Greg Kyte: [00:30:27] They have to rutabagas.

Adam Broud: [00:30:29] Who? Why?

Greg Kyte: [00:30:31] So? Okay.

Adam Broud: [00:30:31] Oh, my gosh.

Greg Kyte: [00:30:32] Okay, Focus up.

Speaker3: [00:30:34] Oh.

Adam Broud: [00:30:37] I'm going to. I'm going to take another bite.

Greg Kyte: [00:30:41] Horrible, right?

Adam Broud: [00:30:42] It's awful.

Greg Kyte: [00:30:43] You can give up. I'm not going to take. I took a big ol I think my one bite was bigger than your two little nibbles. What do.

Adam Broud: [00:30:48] People use this.

Greg Kyte: [00:30:49] For? For punishing people in psychology experiments.

Adam Broud: [00:30:52] The bite was.

Greg Kyte: [00:30:53] Bigger. Oh, wow. Look at that. You just.

Adam Broud: [00:31:00] Oh, terrible decision.

Greg Kyte: [00:31:02] Awesome. Okay, so. So. Monster energy drink and hostess fruit pies. Yeah. Yeah. Um, one of the other things they found will replenish an ego is a blood glucose bump.

Adam Broud: [00:31:13] So blood sugar. Why? I thought you were going to say blood sacrifice, but I thought for sure.

Greg Kyte: [00:31:18] See, they. They looked into that, but they didn't have an effective control group, so they weren't able to actually have definitive results from So, so blood, blood glucose, sugar. If that goes up, then you're you're doing better. You'll have a more replenished ego. So Monster Energy drink and a host of fruit pie could do a twofer where it's a surprise gift and it increases your blood sugar.

Adam Broud: [00:31:38] Level person's boss read the research, gave them what would help, but did not think about the humanity of being kind to human beings and not giving them diabetes.

Greg Kyte: [00:31:45] Absolutely. Okay. And then one other interesting twist on this I had so our friend, our comedian friend, Shane Smith. Yeah, he was on a webinar, a ethics webinar I did a long time ago.

Adam Broud: [00:31:58] Good for him.

Greg Kyte: [00:31:59] And I and we were talking about ego depletion and it was so fun because he was like, Hey, Greg, that ego depletion stuff, everything you said 100% CENSORED. He didn't. He didn't.

Adam Broud: [00:32:10] Believe in. He doesn't buy.

Greg Kyte: [00:32:11] It. He doesn't buy it at all. And here's why. And I thought this was so interesting. He was in the military and he said in the military, they very specifically in our training, they give us the most mundane tasks and they're like, you have to do this either until we tell you to stop or until you literally expire from doing it, whether you pass out or you die. Wow. And it's like, do it go. And the whole idea was we're training you because if you can't do this now, then on the battlefield, you might have to do something like this and people are going to freaking die if you don't do this. And he said, I 100% give me tell me whatever I need to do in the military and tell me to do it. Infinity times, I will do it. Infinity Times Sounds like they were.

Adam Broud: [00:32:57] Increasing his ego well, though.

Greg Kyte: [00:32:59] Yeah, I think.

Adam Broud: [00:33:00] Because anyone who has a toddler could obviously tell you yeah, there's a certain amount of. Why's that. You get asked. My son just entered this age. Yeah. Where it's like, hey, it's time to go to bed. Why? Oh, because it's dark outside. Why? Because the sun went down. Why? Because the earth revolves around the sun. Why? Well, that depends on your religious and or scientific beliefs at that point. Why? Well, because when man was created, they needed to have explanations for why they. I don't know. I don't just go to bed or, you know, stay up, stay awake. I don't care. Stay awake. Right. And that's yeah, I think anyone with a toddler would be like, No, it's for real.

Greg Kyte: [00:33:34] No, but I think that's a great thing. So, like, so, so to counter examples to ego depletion would be parenting and would be the military. But the idea is the stakes are so great. Sure. Because with a child you're like, if I'm not parenting, right, this child could could die If.

Adam Broud: [00:33:51] You told me I have to eat the rest of this turnip or else you're going to shoot somebody. Yeah, I would be like, What did I sign up for? Give me. This was a terrible decision, right? And then I would call the cops. But in a in a less realistic world, I'd just eat the you just eat the turnip.

Greg Kyte: [00:34:04] Eat all the turnips. Yeah. No, exactly.

Adam Broud: [00:34:06] I'd eat a turnip. And so it's pretty gross.

Greg Kyte: [00:34:08] I think that's a fascinating insight into ego depletion and then to bring it back around.

Adam Broud: [00:34:13] So for so for employers, hostage situations also increase ego.

Greg Kyte: [00:34:19] Right? You make ethical decisions or I am going to Larry in the break room do it.

Adam Broud: [00:34:26] So much work. Be ethical so much and.

Greg Kyte: [00:34:29] Larry gets it in the face.

Adam Broud: [00:34:31] The Trolley experiment was really about ego depletion is what it was.

Greg Kyte: [00:34:35] It was so but on a more realistic level, one of the things that accountants could do too, and I like what you said, it's not so much that it replenishes the.

Adam Broud: [00:34:44] I've never met an accountant who doesn't seem on the verge of shooting it in the face. I don't know if it's more realistic.

Greg Kyte: [00:34:50] Okay. I don't feel like I give up that.

Adam Broud: [00:34:52] You're the.

Greg Kyte: [00:34:52] Exception. Nice. So. So I like what you said that it's not so much replenishing the ego as it is giving you like a larger chunk of ego. Yeah. To be. I almost.

Adam Broud: [00:35:03] Said well.

Greg Kyte: [00:35:04] It a bigger. Well, I think it almost gives you like a superhero ego. Oh. Because. Because I don't see that being. It's not like it gives you more. That's going to get deplanche because.

Adam Broud: [00:35:15] Because you think it's unlimited depleted.

Greg Kyte: [00:35:17] I Well that's what that's what. Well, let's think of the two examples we said in the military I.

Adam Broud: [00:35:23] Use, I use the childlike.

Greg Kyte: [00:35:24] Version. It was like eat you. Well, let's say this. I'm going to Larry in the face. If you stop eating radishes. Yeah. Then are you going to you're just going to keep eating radishes? I need to.

Adam Broud: [00:35:35] Know a little bit more about Larry. I think, because I just ate these. They're pretty gross.

Greg Kyte: [00:35:39] They're pretty gross.

Adam Broud: [00:35:40] Pretty gross.

Greg Kyte: [00:35:41] So so with accountants, the idea would be, okay, what we're doing is incredibly important. And if you make a poor ethical decision, it's going to ruin people's lives, which is absolutely the case. And we see that. I mean, the thing I. Go to immediately. Enron people lost their life savings because Arthur Andersen didn't didn't do the job they were supposed to. And because the accountants inside Enron were doing some very unethical things.

Adam Broud: [00:36:06] I can't wait till someone screws up so bad they replace Enron as the.

Greg Kyte: [00:36:09] It's been 20 years. Come on, let's.

Adam Broud: [00:36:11] Get bound to happen. Jeez. So I think it'll be crypto someone in crypto. I bet you're right. The one now now.

Greg Kyte: [00:36:17] The the the thing that kind of sucks about that is that I think initially accountants can go, Yeah, what I do is incredibly important and if we screw this up, the world markets will collapse. Yeah, that's actually.

Adam Broud: [00:36:27] Very romantic to me. If you just find enough purpose in your work.

Greg Kyte: [00:36:30] That's nice. Gotcha.

Speaker3: [00:36:33] Ooh.

Greg Kyte: [00:36:35] That's six. We're getting close to the end. We haven't even started topic number two, so let's get going on that. Okay, Topic number two. Okay. So first off, just to sum up ego depletion. You're going to make worse ethical choices if you're if you're exhausted or if you've had to make a lot of ethical decisions, eventually you're going to crumble. The research says crumble. You're going to you're going to make a bad ethical, not a sponsor. So maybe maybe don't work 60 plus hours a week during busy season.

Adam Broud: [00:37:03] There's so many accountants who just rolled their eyes at that, though. Yeah, Yeah. They're going to be like, you have to work 60 hours.

Greg Kyte: [00:37:08] Okay, so here's a better idea if your firm, every single frickin accounting firm in the planet says crackers, every everyone says this. They say one of our core values is that we hold that we are we are dedicated to the highest levels of integrity with what we do. And I call CENSORED on a firm who says that, who understands ego depletion and still requires their employees to get 60 billable hours of billable time every week. Okay. During busy season, that's CENSORED. And you choke on your core values.

Adam Broud: [00:37:45] My gosh, this is getting so intense.

Greg Kyte: [00:37:47] Is that you were egging me on. It was easy to do.

Adam Broud: [00:37:49] I went full Lil Jon on that situation.

Greg Kyte: [00:37:52] Okay, so topic number two, the ultimatum game.

Adam Broud: [00:37:55] The ultimatum game.

Greg Kyte: [00:37:57] Okay. So I want to start off with this question. Are we going.

Adam Broud: [00:37:59] To play this game?

Greg Kyte: [00:38:00] We are going to play this game.

Adam Broud: [00:38:01] That was an ultimatum.

Greg Kyte: [00:38:02] I'm feeling okay. How are you feeling with.

Adam Broud: [00:38:04] I feel I feel pretty good. I don't feel.

Greg Kyte: [00:38:06] I don't feel particularly. This is what I feel like.

Adam Broud: [00:38:08] I want a shimmy. And that's like my main this is symbol that we've been. Oh, I'm there.

Greg Kyte: [00:38:13] I'm trying to read Reese's pieces without seeing them.

Adam Broud: [00:38:16] As soon as I said those sentences, I was like, I'm going to regret everything coming out of my mouth. But I said it anyway.

Greg Kyte: [00:38:21] I didn't. I was so not even paying attention, which is fine.

Adam Broud: [00:38:25] Reese's Pieces, You get no money.

Greg Kyte: [00:38:27] So if I won the lottery because I love winning, I.

Adam Broud: [00:38:31] I hope you do.

Greg Kyte: [00:38:32] I won the lottery. You can't.

Adam Broud: [00:38:33] You live in Utah? No, you did.

Greg Kyte: [00:38:36] I went to Crystal and I went through Arizona. We bought scratchers and I won the lottery. I won a dollar. Did you know this?

Adam Broud: [00:38:43] Won a dollar?

Greg Kyte: [00:38:44] No.

Adam Broud: [00:38:44] You could have asked someone for a dollar. Listen, I.

Greg Kyte: [00:38:46] Know, but listen, I have a collection of. Because I won a dollar. Yeah, I didn't cash it in when we were in Arizona. I came back, I filled out the form. I sent it into Arizona. I forced them to write me a check for $1 that they mailed to me. And guess what?

Adam Broud: [00:39:01] We lost so much money. I'm not your.

Greg Kyte: [00:39:03] Winning. No, no, no. I'm not even going to cash the check. Because what I do is I collect $1 lottery winning checks from every state. And I think Arizona puts me up to ten states that I'm at now. Very cool. But here's the thing. If I won big, let's say I won 50 plus million dollars in the lottery, would you expect me to give you a piece of that of that of my winnings? Would you would.

Adam Broud: [00:39:22] I expect would you give me 50 million?

Greg Kyte: [00:39:24] Would you be hurt if I didn't give you part of my lottery winnings? No. Okay.

Adam Broud: [00:39:28] But I would expect to be along for the ride. Okay. Like you would be doing something cool, and I'd be like, Greg, What? How am I involved?

Greg Kyte: [00:39:35] Yeah, like ethics webinar where we.

Adam Broud: [00:39:38] Well, you'd probably buy something even more expensive. Or we'd take, like, a bottle of sparkling.

Greg Kyte: [00:39:43] This is.

Adam Broud: [00:39:44] It's very good.

Greg Kyte: [00:39:44] This stuff makes me super happy.

Adam Broud: [00:39:46] Yeah, it's fun.

Greg Kyte: [00:39:47] So, um. But. Okay, so $50 million. What if. So what if a what if your best.

Adam Broud: [00:39:52] I tried to explain that and I was like, that's 50 millions. And that's, that's what the word is. So that doesn't help. No, not at all.

Greg Kyte: [00:39:59] What?

Adam Broud: [00:39:59] Imagine a million things. It's 50 of those. Do you have. So does it work? Do you.

Greg Kyte: [00:40:03] Have siblings?

Adam Broud: [00:40:04] Yeah, I'm one of five.

Greg Kyte: [00:40:05] Okay. What if your brother won $1 million? What if Alex won $50 million? Would you expect a cut of that?

Adam Broud: [00:40:13] I'd expect it because one of the one of the things I think of every night before I go to sleep, one of the things that I start imagining to help me go to bed is if I won the lottery, what would I do with it? And then I start divvying up the winnings immediately. And family's always first on the list. So I would I would assume that he would give me some. Okay. He's a nice guy.

Greg Kyte: [00:40:30] But would you be hurt if he.

Adam Broud: [00:40:31] Didn't? If he didn't, yeah, I'd be a little upset, honestly. Okay. He got something for nothing, and he's not going to pay out.

Greg Kyte: [00:40:37] Yeah, okay.

Adam Broud: [00:40:38] Yeah, I'd be upset.

Greg Kyte: [00:40:39] I love it. That's how we're. That's how we're setting this up. We're going to play the ultimate.

Adam Broud: [00:40:42] It was less. I would. I would be very passive aggressive and pretend I wouldn't be upset. But I'm honest enough right now that I'm like, yes, Alex, if you're listening and you won the lottery, keep it to your CENSORED self because I'm going to be very upset if you don't share it.

Greg Kyte: [00:40:56] Yeah. Alex, listen up. So. So we're going to play the ultimatum game, right? Let's do it. And the ultimatum game is read. Here's you. So.

Adam Broud: [00:41:03] And this game is radishes.

Greg Kyte: [00:41:05] Crystal is going to be playing this as well. So, Crystal, you each have a role to play in this game.

Adam Broud: [00:41:11] So I will play Caliban from The Tempest.

Greg Kyte: [00:41:13] I am giving you guys. I am giving you guys collectively, you get $20. So here's here's $20 in cash right here that I'm giving to you. And I have. But yeah, you can you have to have it for for the starters. Okay. Because your role in this game you get. So that's $20 for the two of you. Yeah. Your role is that you get to split the money any way you want between you and Crystal. Okay? And then Crystal gets to decide whether she accepts your split or rejects your split. If she accepts it, you guys keep the money the way that it's that it's divvied up. If she rejects it, you both get nothing. You get zero. If she rejects it, if.

Adam Broud: [00:41:56] She rejects it, I don't get.

Greg Kyte: [00:41:58] Squat. You guys get no money at all. If she if.

Adam Broud: [00:42:01] She you actually get to keep this. Is this a bonus?

Greg Kyte: [00:42:03] Yes, it is. It's a bonus because I'm because I'm ethical. Af Um.

Adam Broud: [00:42:08] So this is interesting because it's advantageous for her to take anything because if she says no, she's going to end up with absolutely nothing. Right? Right. And something's better than nothing. Okay? Unless she's like, Screw you, Adam. It is the, the, the dollars are not worth as much as the as the knife in your eye to be like, Right? I'm not going to take this right. It's worth five bucks to say screw you. Okay? Which is fun.

Greg Kyte: [00:42:34] Okay, here's some.

Adam Broud: [00:42:35] Here's which Crystal is like the nicest person in the world. So honestly, I give her a penny, and she'd be like, No, Adam deserves 1999. He's such a good guy. He deserves 1999.

Greg Kyte: [00:42:45] So.

Adam Broud: [00:42:45] So I could use that to my advantage. Is this what's super villains feel like?

Greg Kyte: [00:42:49] This is exactly what they feel like. And your ego has been depleted. And here's number seven.

Adam Broud: [00:42:54] This was about to be depleted.

Speaker3: [00:42:55] You know what I mean?

Greg Kyte: [00:43:01] So two other parts of the rules of this game go on. You can't give her zero, but it seems like you already knew that you can't. Oh, I.

Adam Broud: [00:43:09] Didn't know that.

Greg Kyte: [00:43:10] You can't keep zero.

Adam Broud: [00:43:11] Well, you're a really good person. I didn't know I could give her a zero. And in my worst case scenario, I gave her something. Exactly.

Greg Kyte: [00:43:17] You gave her a penny. And then the other thing is. Oh, you guys.

Adam Broud: [00:43:20] Are such a good person.

Greg Kyte: [00:43:20] You can't negotiate the split. She can't. She can't be like, Hey, listen, if you give me less than this much, I'm totally going to reject.

Adam Broud: [00:43:26] Mossycoat Can you blink in Morse code?

Greg Kyte: [00:43:28] So, so your job right now because is split up that split up that cash.

Adam Broud: [00:43:33] What's fun is you were like, you have to give this to her. And my first thought was, I have to give this into her away. And so my first thought was like.

Greg Kyte: [00:43:40] Oh, is.

Adam Broud: [00:43:40] Making it rain? Making it rain sort of style.

Greg Kyte: [00:43:43] Because because I gave you I gave you the right, the proper denominations where you can make any split. You got a ten, a five, four ones, three quarters a dime, two nickels and five pennies. Look at that. Six in. And I can still be an accountant.

Adam Broud: [00:43:57] You know what's fun? What's that? Six. I didn't understand.

Greg Kyte: [00:44:00] Oh, we're seven. Seven.

Adam Broud: [00:44:02] I didn't understand a word.

Greg Kyte: [00:44:03] You pouring yourself a number eight.

Adam Broud: [00:44:05] Oh, don't.

Greg Kyte: [00:44:06] Don't do it. I think your wife. Would make me.

Adam Broud: [00:44:11] You ready for.

Greg Kyte: [00:44:11] That? Out of your hand. You ready for.

Adam Broud: [00:44:14] Him to completely screw up your experiment? Yeah. Here's 20 bucks, Crystal.

Greg Kyte: [00:44:17] Oh, but you can't. That's against the rules.

Adam Broud: [00:44:19] I'll take a penny.

Greg Kyte: [00:44:21] Oh, okay.

Adam Broud: [00:44:22] 1999.

Greg Kyte: [00:44:23] All right, So, Crystal, what.

Adam Broud: [00:44:25] About that Crystal? I immediately feel bad, actually. Can I change it?

Greg Kyte: [00:44:29] No, no, no, no, no. You did it. You made it. So, Crystal, your job is to accept or reject the.

Adam Broud: [00:44:34] But keep in mind, we hold a relationship After this experiment. You can give some stuff back if you want.

Greg Kyte: [00:44:38] Oh, I love what you just said. What do you do? Do you accept the split or do you reject 99?

Adam Broud: [00:44:43] Buy yourself something nice.

Speaker4: [00:44:46] I would accept, but I feel like he wants me to. Not.

Adam Broud: [00:44:49] No, no, I want. No.

Greg Kyte: [00:44:50] What do you want to do? Follow your heart.

Adam Broud: [00:44:51] Do what your heart says. Accept it. I want you to accept it.

Greg Kyte: [00:44:54] I mean, come on.

Adam Broud: [00:44:55] Behalf of.

Greg Kyte: [00:44:56] Accept.

Adam Broud: [00:44:56] On behalf of the Sparkle Donkey family. She.

Greg Kyte: [00:44:59] Okay. She's not on a mic. She would personally say, Let's split. Oh, so she would reject it. She would accept it only to find out after the fact.

Adam Broud: [00:45:10] What's fun about this? I was going to split it even, but it was worth it enough to screw up Greg's experiment for me to give you ten, nine, nine, nine extra.

Greg Kyte: [00:45:19] So. So what do you do? Final answer. You're not allowed to negotiate, so you have to.

Adam Broud: [00:45:24] Final offer.

Greg Kyte: [00:45:25] You accepted or.

Adam Broud: [00:45:25] Rejected. Take my gift. She accepts.

Greg Kyte: [00:45:27] It. Okay. Which makes sense. Okay. Let me tell you many things. So there's so many cool things that just happened right now in this experiment. So first off, can't.

Adam Broud: [00:45:34] Wait to buy something with this penny.

Greg Kyte: [00:45:35] Because I read a ton of of.

Adam Broud: [00:45:38] Research.

Greg Kyte: [00:45:38] About this exact game because this is like a favorite game for social scientists. The world round. That's true. Psychologists love this game because you'd heard about this game before.

Adam Broud: [00:45:48] Too many times.

Greg Kyte: [00:45:49] Too many. You're so bored with this.

Adam Broud: [00:45:50] So many times.

Greg Kyte: [00:45:51] So let me see if these if this makes sense. So first off, what they found was that generally speaking, if the split is less generous than 75, 25, so you keep 75, you give 25 to the other person, that generally at that point, if it.

Adam Broud: [00:46:06] Was left some five bucks. Yeah.

Greg Kyte: [00:46:07] Yeah. So if you gave her less than five bucks, then all of a sudden the amount of rejections of the offer start just skyrocketing at that point.

Adam Broud: [00:46:14] And then imagine the real world percussion repercussions. That's a tough word. Yes. Repercussions. Yeah. The percussions, the.

Greg Kyte: [00:46:23] You're a very good beatboxer.

Adam Broud: [00:46:25] I play drums with my mouth as well as my hands. Nice. And if Crystal had gotten less than five bucks, imagine the real world repercussions if she actually was upset with me. Wouldn't that be.

Greg Kyte: [00:46:35] Fun? Right.

Adam Broud: [00:46:36] Well, okay.

Greg Kyte: [00:46:37] Very sad. And we're going to get.

Adam Broud: [00:46:38] Back to that. Bucks ruined our relationship.

Greg Kyte: [00:46:39] What you just said is like our the very last point I want to make, because that's the take home. Here's another thing I want to tell you about the expert regiments.

Adam Broud: [00:46:47] Tell me all the things, Greg, because read Wikipedia.

Greg Kyte: [00:46:49] 20 bucks is not a life changing amount of money, obviously. However, they did this experiment in in some third world countries.

Adam Broud: [00:46:58] And I think.

Greg Kyte: [00:46:58] They used like a hundred bucks. Yeah. And where what a cruel experiment that's like, that's like a month's wages or two weeks worth of. So I remember.

Adam Broud: [00:47:06] Reading this and immediately getting sad but go on.

Greg Kyte: [00:47:08] Yeah, right. It's kind of a thing to do. It's like, hey, people who can barely like these.

Adam Broud: [00:47:12] People aren't poor enough. Let's find some starving people to feed and still not feed some of them. But here's what's.

Greg Kyte: [00:47:19] Great. So it was somewhere between a half a month and a month's. Wages for these people is what they were having.

Adam Broud: [00:47:24] Psychologists need ethical training and.

Greg Kyte: [00:47:26] What they found. Same thing, 25% split and the same deal. Same deal.

Adam Broud: [00:47:31] Even people who are like this could put food on my table. They were like, Yeah, but it's worth more.

Greg Kyte: [00:47:35] It's like to.

Adam Broud: [00:47:35] Say, Screw you.

Greg Kyte: [00:47:36] A 25%.

Adam Broud: [00:47:38] Of CENSORED, I love humans. That's so.

Greg Kyte: [00:47:39] Funny. Be like a week's wages and you're still like, you were too stingy.

Adam Broud: [00:47:43] But now I love that.

Greg Kyte: [00:47:44] Here's another crazy thing, though. They did the experiment in Micronesia. Okay? And apparently.

Adam Broud: [00:47:49] The smallest of the ninjas.

Greg Kyte: [00:47:51] It's you can't get. Well, there's the the nano.

Adam Broud: [00:47:53] Mega, nano.

Greg Kyte: [00:47:54] Mega, the Micronesia.

Adam Broud: [00:47:56] The amnesia, the Micronesia and the Nano. Mega.

Greg Kyte: [00:47:58] They they did. They did the experiment in Micronesia. And apparently the culture in Micronesia.

Adam Broud: [00:48:04] Yeah. Say it again.

Greg Kyte: [00:48:05] In Micronesia. Is that. Is that your social capital is built on gift giving. So they did splits.

Adam Broud: [00:48:15] Like what more meaningful in Micronesia. Yeah.

Greg Kyte: [00:48:17] Where you're more you're like going I could give a hyper generous offer which is what you just did.

Adam Broud: [00:48:23] I'm moving to Micronesia.

Greg Kyte: [00:48:24] I can give a hyper generous offer and I don't get as much money, but everybody is going to think I'm the CENSORED man.

Adam Broud: [00:48:31] That's cool doing.

Greg Kyte: [00:48:31] That. And they'd be like, Cool. I get to split this. I'll keep a penny. You keep. Did they do that? They did that. But here's the Crazy Sweethearts.

Adam Broud: [00:48:39] Did they end up upset about it?

Greg Kyte: [00:48:40] The person receiving the gift did, and they were like, CENSORED you. Oh, they.

Adam Broud: [00:48:45] Would say, No.

Greg Kyte: [00:48:46] You think I need 1999 of your CENSORED money? You and everything about you take your Nobody gets anything.

Adam Broud: [00:48:54] Which Crystal felt a piece of where she was like, I don't want this much. I want half of it.

Greg Kyte: [00:48:58] Right? Right. So. So that's a crazy, a crazy spin on the whole thing. And then but here's what I want to get to.

Adam Broud: [00:49:05] That just revolutionized my world in gift giving for Christmas is when you think of the best gift to give somebody, give them a step down from that, give them a little bit of disappointment is what I just learned. And that's Christmas. That's the true spirit of Christmas.

Greg Kyte: [00:49:18] That's the true spirit.

Adam Broud: [00:49:19] Of that's what Jesus would.

Greg Kyte: [00:49:21] Want the But here's the here's the here's the here's the takeaway I want to talk.

Adam Broud: [00:49:25] About. Take me away.

Greg Kyte: [00:49:26] Is they did this experiment where they made sure that the two parties of the game were completely anonymous. So. So you were playing this game, but you didn't know? I didn't.

Adam Broud: [00:49:39] Know Crystal. That would change my decision.

Greg Kyte: [00:49:41] Not only did you not know her, you didn't know it could be your mom. It. Could be a stranger. You have no idea who this other person is. You don't get to see him. You don't get to interact with him. You know nothing about.

Adam Broud: [00:49:51] Love is blinding it.

Greg Kyte: [00:49:52] Period. That you know nothing. And what they found out is in a complete veil of anonymity, between the.

Adam Broud: [00:50:00] Anonymity.

Greg Kyte: [00:50:00] Between the person splitting the money and the person accepting or rejecting the.

Adam Broud: [00:50:04] Mystery person, they.

Greg Kyte: [00:50:06] Found that people started giving stingier splits. So they were starting to go, I'm going to keep way more of this money and you're going to take $2 and you're going to take happy about it. And then they found the same thing. And the other person they accept or reject her person, that person would expect more. They'd they'd flush deals quicker, like more than at 25%. They'd be like going, I get 50% or I get nothing. True.

Adam Broud: [00:50:29] You treat strangers worse and strangers expect more from us.

Greg Kyte: [00:50:33] It's not so much strangers. It's the fact that you don't even know. You know, that your identity will never be seen.

Adam Broud: [00:50:39] Oh, man. So you're.

Greg Kyte: [00:50:41] So. It's not just.

Adam Broud: [00:50:42] That. It's a stranger. A protection of. Of self. Yeah.

Greg Kyte: [00:50:44] Because if they could see you, you could be like, because I've done this.

Adam Broud: [00:50:48] I almost said that. I almost said, You have to understand I'm being recorded right now and whatever is going to happen, what I choose. I just chose a cent and everybody knows me for the cent guy, but now I'm saying it out loud and that completely ruined it. You can't get me drunk and then make me say out loud the things that make me look nice.

Greg Kyte: [00:51:03] Greg But that's awesome because listen, because what you just said is exactly the point. So if anonymity makes people bigger, rubbing.

Adam Broud: [00:51:10] My nose is never felt better. This feels so good.

Greg Kyte: [00:51:14] Last last week was moving your head back and forth.

Adam Broud: [00:51:17] Oh, that's true. Is that. Oh, that feels great. This is so.

Greg Kyte: [00:51:21] Good. So. Okay, but focus in with me for this last little bit. So what you just said was.

Adam Broud: [00:51:28] Welcome to ethics since.

Greg Kyte: [00:51:29] You were you were absolutely knew that this was being recorded and.

Adam Broud: [00:51:34] People that you were listening.

Greg Kyte: [00:51:35] People would know what Adam Brown how Adam Brown split that money. You went hyper like good guy.

Adam Broud: [00:51:42] Yeah well, I'd like to think I'm a good guy generally, but maybe that's maybe that's me preserving my image of self already where I'm like, No, actually I made that decision because I am a good person when really I made that decision under the influence of both. And an audience. Yes.

Greg Kyte: [00:51:57] Well, and and but regardless of why you made that and part of what you're saying is what we talked about last time is the bias blind spot where you're like going.

Adam Broud: [00:52:06] I'm not affected.

Greg Kyte: [00:52:07] I'm not affected by transparency or anonymity. I'm this way. Regardless, you are affected by it. This is a joke. But here's the thing.

Adam Broud: [00:52:14] In a good one.

Greg Kyte: [00:52:14] Transparency is the silver et for ethical behavior.

Adam Broud: [00:52:20] Transparency is the say it again.

Greg Kyte: [00:52:24] Transparent, visible transparency.

Adam Broud: [00:52:26] We think of is.

Greg Kyte: [00:52:27] The silver et for ethical behavior, because.

Adam Broud: [00:52:31] It does.

Greg Kyte: [00:52:31] Two, it does two.

Adam Broud: [00:52:32] Things. If people can see that this goes back to Greg the accountant, then you're going to be more honest because it's worse to be like, Hey, I just lied about this, but I got if you. Yeah. The, the, the, the gamble of getting away with it is not worth the personal depletion of your own of my self.

Greg Kyte: [00:52:52] Esteem, of my self.

Adam Broud: [00:52:53] There are so many words in the English language and all of them are so hard to find. But listen it's.

Greg Kyte: [00:52:59] It's not the the financial gain is not. It's back to the Micronesian.

Adam Broud: [00:53:04] Like Greg's sucks. He's a.

Greg Kyte: [00:53:06] Socialist. We all are concerned about our social capital. That makes sense. The money that I make is not worth me being a pariah for everybody on the planet. I don't want to be a social piranha. And then the flip side of that, like, let's say, let's say there's some dumb rule at work that you're like.

Adam Broud: [00:53:25] Is have you been to work stupid?

Greg Kyte: [00:53:26] Yes. Like you're going, Oh, they only allow me to make 19 copies at maximum on any given month on the company copy machine.

Adam Broud: [00:53:34] Teacher in a public.

Greg Kyte: [00:53:35] School and then. Right. And then you go, I need 24 and you're going my way, bro. And then you. Well, you've got this. So again, transparency is the silver et because you can go to your supervisor and go, Hey, I know that the policy says 19, I'm going to make 24. Are you cool with that? And then they go, Yeah, I'm cool with that. And then you go right on. I then at that point, you didn't make an unethical decision.

Adam Broud: [00:53:58] Yeah, transparency will help you kill werewolves.

Greg Kyte: [00:54:00] And as soon as you bring it up. So you just made transparency two ways because you because on the one hand, if they say, yeah, then you can break the rule. But you're still being ethical because someone in authority over you said, go ahead and do what you're doing. It's fine. Yeah, yeah. So you're good.

Adam Broud: [00:54:15] Flip playing this. The flip.

Greg Kyte: [00:54:16] Side of that is.

Adam Broud: [00:54:17] Crystals out of the room and I'm stealing ten of her dollar. You just.

Greg Kyte: [00:54:20] You just.

Adam Broud: [00:54:22] Explain that one, Greg You.

Greg Kyte: [00:54:23] Just.

Adam Broud: [00:54:25] Little Hamilton.

Greg Kyte: [00:54:26] But by.

Adam Broud: [00:54:27] Asking how does a CENSORED orphan son.

Greg Kyte: [00:54:30] Of a sub we don't have we don't have the rights for that song The I'm seven but I still know copyright law. Now we what was I saying? Um. Oh what was I saying?

Adam Broud: [00:54:44] Sparkle donkey. If you. Thanks for queuing into ethics with people. Hold on, hold on. We've got and we've got dollars. I've got one. If you like ethics, you should check out our other podcasts such as Donkey Time. Donkey Time is about sparkles. They can sparkle with the donkeys. And if. And we'll come. And if you'd like that, then you should check out this box with different dots sponsored by Squarespace.

Greg Kyte: [00:55:12] So in summary, to be transparent. Uh, guys, this has been a episode two episode.

Adam Broud: [00:55:22] Episode two of.

Greg Kyte: [00:55:24] Ethics not sponsored by Sparkle Donkeys.

Adam Broud: [00:55:27] No, but Sparkle. Donkeys. Shout, Shout or call us out. Email us. Text us.

Greg Kyte: [00:55:32] I'm going back to Wyoming. I got to get more of this stuff. It might have been. It might have been Idaho.

Adam Broud: [00:55:37] I honestly feel bad for the last week because we were like, this is fine, but this is this is this is literally amazing stuff.

Greg Kyte: [00:55:44] And they're not a sponsor, So. Yeah.

Adam Broud: [00:55:47] Uh, and I'm biased against donkeys to begin with.

Greg Kyte: [00:55:50] So, guys, I'm Greg. I'm Greg Kite.

Adam Broud: [00:55:53] Yeah, you are. Don't ever stop. And you.

Greg Kyte: [00:55:56] And.

Adam Broud: [00:55:56] And Greg's pointing at me. He knows because he wants. I'm also Greg Kite. Plot twist. I'm m night shyamalans.

Greg Kyte: [00:56:04] And this has been ethics. Thank you so much for listening. Now go ta