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Blueprint for Excellence: The Indovance Leadership Series brings out leadership success stories for the benefit of fellow leaders, to-be leaders, entrepreneurs, and the industry in general. Success isn’t an accident; it’s a purposeful dedication of time and effort towards a goal. Let’s listen, relate to, and learn what that looks like when put into practice.
Samir Mokashi: But I always believed
in more industrial architecture,
which was more function-driven.
If you can have a beautiful
car, why can't you have a
beautiful factory type of thing?
Andrew Bennett: When you're young
and you're, like, literally 20
years old, part of the bridge that
I was building was to sort of roll
up my sleeves and tr- do anything.
I would do anything
that I was asked to do.
Like, I was extremely humble about not
being, like, this kid from America that
knew everything and, like, a know-it-all.
I
Samir Mokashi: think at that
stage you start comparing.
Where I'm at 40, where I should be at 40.
Where I'm at 50, where I should be at
50, and that's the wrong thing to do.
Andrew Bennett: I as an owner will invite
all the young people in the firm, and
the very first thing I always tell them
is that if you're gonna get anywhere
in your, uh, journey through this
career, it starts off by giving a damn.
Sandesh Joshi: Hello, and welcome
to Blueprint for Excellence,
the Indovance leadership series.
I'm your host, Sandesh Joshi,
CEO of Indovance, an engineering
outsourcing services company.
For more than 20 years, I've had
the opportunity and the privilege
to work with and learn from a lot of
engineering and architectural leaders.
I've created this podcast series
to bring out the leadership success
stories for the benefit of fellow
leaders, to be leaders, entrepreneurs,
and the industry in general.
Success isn't an accident.
It's a purposeful dedication of
time and effort towards a goal.
Let's listen, relate to, and learn what
that looks like when put into practice.
Today, my guests are Andrew Bennett, a
partner and principal at Bohlin Cywinski
Jackson, an architecture and design firm
with multiple offices across the country,
and Samir Makasi, business strategist
and author of The Millionaire Exit.
Gentlemen, welcome to the program.
Andrew Bennett: Thanks
for having us, Sandesh.
Samir Mokashi: Thank you
very much for having us.
Looking forward to this discussion.
Sandesh Joshi: With that, uh,
let me ask you, Andrew, first to
introduce yourself and describe to
our listeners your career journey.
Andrew Bennett: Uh, sure.
Um, I'm really happy to be here,
and it's, um, one of those things
that w- you know, where do you start
with a journey when it's been 37
years, which is kind of a big number.
Uh, I grew up in the Dallas, Texas
area, and, uh, that's where our f- our
headquarters office is, and so it's
kind of… There's a lot of pride in
being able to work in your hometown.
But my journey started here.
I went to school in Austin, Texas, at the
University of Texas at Austin, and then
I actually started my career in Hawaii.
So from, like, 1990 to '94, I was
actually honing my early skills in two
or three different firms, uh, trying
out different things in the wonderful
paradise that you might call Hawaii.
And then, um, I came back to Texas
to raise my family, uh, and, uh, have
kids and do all those kind of things.
But when I came back in 1995, um, I was
lucky enough to get with a firm that
I've now been with for 30-plus years.
And so I grew up in the firm.
Uh, I was, uh, certainly, uh,
basically at age 29, I came in as,
as a young architect but grew up into
the leadership of the firm, and now
I'm one of the three owners here.
Sandesh Joshi: Looks
like a wonderful journey.
I mean, you have been places.
I guess Hawaii is, uh,
everybody wants to be there.
Yeah.
So I, I hope you had fun.
Um, and, uh, uh, moving on, Sameer, if
I may ask you to describe your journey.
Samir Mokashi: Yeah.
Similar to Andrew, I've had a
very interesting journey, and
my background is architecture.
Andrew, you may not know it.
I had my master's at University of Oregon.
Oh, nice.
Came here from India to do master's in
University of, uh, uh, architecture,
and my focus at that time was
passive solar and daylighting.
From that- Oh, wow … to be a
business strategist is a long journey.
I'll make it short One of the things
is I always had entrepreneurial
bend from the very beginning.
In my third year architecture in my
undergrad, I got my first client.
My friend's father, uh, wanted to
build a, a, a cottage in, in a, in a
remote location, and so he hired me.
So essentially we had to take the train,
a bus, and a hike to get to the site.
And, but that- Wow … gave
me a valuable experience.
Uh, and I hired some of my
professors as the structural
engineers, things like that, to
build it up, and that stuck with me.
Then I came to the US, uh, graduated
in the middle of the recession, uh, and
ended up working for a company called
IDC, which was the world's biggest
firm designing semiconductor factories.
And my master's was in passive solar,
but my undergrad design and decision
thesis was semiconductor factory.
But I always believed in more industrial
architecture, which was more, uh,
function driven, uh, and always
looked at, like, if you can have a
beautiful car, why can't you have
a beautiful factory type of thing?
And so I went along with that and,
and became an expert in that industry.
It's a very small industry.
I became an expert in building codes,
fire codes, in hazardous materials in
that, and that gave me the platform
to launch my company later on.
'Cause as an immigrant, I had
no money, no contacts, right?
And with working in a large firm,
you don't even get to know anybody.
So I actually became the, uh, the, the,
uh, committee chair for the code committee
in the local AIA, and that's how I built
my connections and then made the jump.
And, and from there, I started out and
realized, oh, I have special expertise,
but I have nothing about business.
And so I was struggling to figure
it out, but clients kept coming.
And then eventually one of
my clients offered me a, uh,
offered me to join their firm.
I said, "I just left a good job.
Why, why do I need to… Uh, I'm not
looking for a job." He said, "No, come
as a partner." So that worked well.
Stayed there for a few years, and
after that, the values didn't connect.
So me and my wife, the second
round, started Code Unlimited.
And this time we worked together,
went together for over 12 years.
The company grew multiple offices.
We sold it in 2022.
And then now I'm technically retired from
code consulting, but Business Millionaire
Club is my business consulting firm.
'Cause one of the things I
realized is there's no book
about how to build a company.
And as I was writing this book, I
was-- we sold a company and said,
"Not only do we not know anything
much about growing a company, we know
even little about selling a company."
And I wanted to help entrepreneurs,
so now that's what I'm doing.
Along with it, I also have a sauce
company, a hot sauce company.
So we had a family recipe that we
gave to friends and families, and
I always wanted to do something
and, and never ended up doing it.
So now that I have time, we have.
It's called Timoli Sauce.
Uh, and first batch- Oh,
it's awesome … is out.
And, and we are selling it now online.
So, and in that, my, my family,
my, my, my children, and my nieces
and nephews are gonna be partners.
My intent is our family doesn't come
from a business background, but I
think understanding of business gives
you opportunities beyond what, what,
uh, as you can get as an employee.
So that's another story going on.
Uh, so that's where my journey took
me, and it's interesting journey and,
and I'm looking forward to many more
years of, of making a difference.
Andrew Bennett: You know, it's funny.
At, at the heart of what Samir just
said is, is, is really passion.
And so like I could feel like
different things that led to like
putting his passions out there.
So, um, you know, that's actually
relates to me as well because as our
firm is a little more design-oriented,
and that's always been my passion.
And so my journey included a lot
of travel and I've been to places
like India and 30 other countries.
I took the whole year of 1995 off.
I think that's a very formative year
for me because I was able to see 30
countries around the world and study
architecture that I often tell people
that I only saw in books, uh, before that.
So, um, I really li- I like
the hot sauce thing too, Samir.
That's pretty cool.
Sandesh Joshi: Wonderful.
I think wonderful, uh, points you, both of
you talked about and I think you, Andrew,
mentioned about traveling the world and
I mean, you see the map right behind me.
I love- Yeah.
Right … love the map, love
traveling, and I've been to
similarly 30 something countries
and I learn a lot everywhere I go.
It's, uh, um- Absolutely … it,
it's wonderful, um, to really
figure out, find out what you learn.
Um, so it's a lot of times unexpected.
And both of you also touched upon, uh,
something a lot of leaders talk about
is, you know, you didn't necessarily
know it all when you started.
Um, and, and that's very humbling and it's
especially important for to be leaders to
hear that, uh, from successful leaders,
uh, who have built a care- career.
So I'm wondering, you know, Samir, maybe
if I can, uh, start with you, is if
you look back and, uh, you talked about
starting your business early on or, or
getting, getting a business opportunity.
I'm wondering, you know, what, um, you
know, as an individual contributor,
often the journey from being an
individual contributor to a manager
or a leader is, um, not easy and it's
something accidental, forced upon.
I'm wondering, you know,
how do you look back?
Um, h- how was your journey?
What were any lessons that you learned?
Samir Mokashi: I think one of the
things that people Hold themself back by
setting a benchmark or a bar too high.
Successful leaders look back
at what they have done and
not worry about what's coming.
And that's kind of thing that I've
done a lot in my life, and I've
even talked-- People, I mentor a
lot of people, different people
starting up, g- in the middle of the
business, ending their businesses.
A lot of the times they're saying,
"Okay, I don't know this." Nobody
knows this, and nobody knows what
technology and revolutions are
gonna happen in the next five years.
We can manage what we manage and
accept what we don't control, right?
And then chart our path within it.
Everybody else is in the same boat.
Yeah.
So those are kind of things that, that
are important to taking on the, the, the
role bigger than what you were doing as
an individual contributor to a team leader
to a, to a, uh, force multiplier, right?
So there are different
levels that you do it.
The second thing that always was
important to me is figuring out how
to help others do what they do best or
how to bring out the best from them.
Sometimes it is about getting out
of the way, but most of the times
it is at least giving a vision, so
we're all moving to the same goal.
And, and I've heard a lot of times
people talk about you hire the
best people and get out of the way.
No, you hire the best people,
but you still give them a vision
because it's still your company.
It's still your goals that you want
them to come along with, right?
Smart people are very hard to manage,
so you have to earn their respect first.
Once you earn their respect,
it works wonders, right?
But- Mm-hmm.
Very well said … but until then,
they will challenge you all the time.
Mm-hmm.
And so those are kind of things of
lessons that I learned about leadership.
Listen carefully.
Most leaders are used to making decisions
and I'm, I'm, I'm just at fault as
many others, and I tell rather than ask
or, or, or inform rather than listen.
But that's okay.
I'm not perfect.
That accepting that I am the best
version of me I can be today is important
because best version of me tomorrow
might be 150% and today might be 75%.
Accepting that up and down and, and,
and, and each style is different.
And if we, like, even in the book I
write, if, if you look back at my history
and what I've achieved, I've, I started
with nothing and achieved a lot, and
you would think I am very disciplined.
I'm not.
But I accept my peaks and valleys.
And when I'm at my peak,
I make the most of it.
When I'm at my valley, I don't,
I don't, uh, get mad at myself.
Sandesh Joshi: Wonderful.
I think wonderfully said.
I, I, I mean, what, some of the
things I'm catching is I think
embrace your individuality.
I mean- Yes, absolutely … be
kind to yourself.
Uh, you know, just not setting
unrealistic, uh, or rather somebody else's
expectations to that ma- to that matter.
And, um, you also talked about, uh,
I think, uh, al- almost like, uh,
build the bridge as you walk on it.
Um, you know, you- Oh, yeah … may not
know what's coming, but to a certain
extent, have some faith, and, um, you
know, have faith that you will build
the bridge- Yes … as you walk on it.
Um, wondering, you know, bouncing that
back to Andrew, you know, what, what
comes to your mind and your journey from
an individual contributor to a leader
or manager, um, how do you look back?
Andrew Bennett: You know, I,
I really like that term build
a bridge as you walk on it.
Uh, uh, you know, I, I mentioned starting
my career in Hawaii, but I sort of failed
to mention that even as a student at UT
Austin, we were lucky enough to have a
residency program where we could place
ourselves in firms almost at our choosing.
And some people might stay local, and
I chose to go international, and that
was my first time to go international.
I went to Sydney, Australia, and I
worked for a very well-known architect,
an architect who unfortunately
passed away just a few years ago.
He's n- internationally known.
John Andrews, uh, was his name.
And, um, when you're young and
you're, like, literally 20 years old,
you know, part of the bridge that
I was building was to sort of roll
up my sleeves and tr- do anything.
I would do anything
that I was asked to do.
Like, I was extremely humble about
not being, like, this kid from America
that knew everything and, like, a
know-it-all, and just listening to
their perspective and learning for the
first time how somebody else thinks
from-- that's far away from you.
And that really, uh, helped me very
much because they were v- uh, the
Australians are really wonderful people.
They really took me in, and
it gave me that sort of spirit
of wanting to explore more.
And so then spending four years in
Hawaii with three different firms and
a bunch of different personalities
and actually cultural differences too
because I was actually a minority in
Hawaii, and I got to feel what that's
like for the first time in my life.
And I'm a very proud American, very
proud Texan, but, um, you feel that
humility, and you kinda learn from it.
And so, uh, I, I, I like that
Samir already mentioned mentoring.
Um, as a leader, mentoring is kinda
one of the most key things I can do,
and I always am very open to bringing
in young kids that might wanna be
architects and, like, touring them through
our office and talking about things.
And I'll have, uh, lunch and learn
sessions where I as an owner will
invite all the young people in the
firm, and the very first thing I always
tell them is that if you're gonna get
anywhere in, in kind of your, your,
your, uh, journey through this career,
it starts off by giving a damn, okay?
So you gotta care about what you're doing.
And then the second thing you gotta do if
you give a damn, you gotta pay attention.
And so being a really good
listener, and Samir mentioned
listening skills too, right?
And I'm not talking about a listener
that, uh, just listens and takes notes.
Active listening, asking
follow-up questions, being
engaged in a conversation.
And so I never just-- I never took any
conversation I ever had throughout my
career as just sort of being there.
I wanted to sort of, "W-what, what's the
most I can get out of this process?" And
so I think those things, the energy that
I brought to that process or the energy
that I brought to sort of paying attention
and, like, I, I actually think My, my
ability to pay attention, even though
I like to, I'm like, I'm not perfect.
I miss things sometimes.
But, like, that's fair.
Like, I'm a person that remembers names.
I'm a person that remembers
buildings and situations.
I'm a, I'm a person that people
come back to for information because
I'm reliable in that regard, and
I think that kind of led to some,
some, uh, natural leadership skills.
Sandesh Joshi: Wonderful.
And I think both of you touched
upon and kind of emphasized l-
uh, listening skills, and I have
learned my share of lessons as well.
I think listening is important, uh,
uh, for a leader, and I learned a
definition of l- of listening which,
um, I hold onto and I want to share
here is, uh, uh, someone told me that
li- active listening or true listening
means l- listening without thinking
about, what am I gonna respond?
So just listening.
Um, so we all need to do that.
It, it really can make a big difference.
I'm wondering- It's tricky at
Andrew Bennett: times.
Yeah.
Sandesh Joshi: I'm wondering, you
know, Andrew, um, if you look back,
uh, any piece of advice or wisdom
that you'd tell your younger self?
Uh, what would you do differently
or more or less of that will help
you be more successful, or, uh, just
something that comes to your mind?
Andrew Bennett: So I have a s-
great story that I tell people.
Like, you never miss an opportunity to,
uh, be a part of something, and I was, uh,
doing an internship with a, a four-person
firm, and we did restaurant design.
And my boss came to me and he said, "Hey,
we're gonna do this wine cellar, and I
want you to design the gate, and, uh, you
know, the gate into this wine cellar."
And for a day I sat on it.
Uh, two days I sat on it.
The third day he came to me and he said,
"Have you done anything yet?" And I
said, "Well, you know, I haven't really
gotten to… I hadn't really jumped into
it yet." So he said, he got frustrated
and he went to this n- there was only
three or four of us, and he went to
this guy who wasn't as educated as me,
wasn't as design-oriented as me, he
wasn't as talented as me, and that guy
was more of our technician of our firm.
And that guy drew a qui- a gate in about
an hour, and that's what they built.
And so I thought to myself, "I don't
wanna ever miss that opportunity
again." When I'm given a chance to,
like, really get into something, it's
like, don't… Like, don't sit back.
Like, uh, you know, you don't have to
be overly aggressive, but, like, take…
If somebody asks you to do something,
think about what that means, and think
about where that could take you, and
don't be afraid to give it a try.
And I kinda, like, hesitated, and I missed
out on an opportunity, which that story
sticks with me s- uh, 30 years later.
Sandesh Joshi: And sometimes, I
mean, I think, uh, I'm wondering
whether I'm reading between the
lines, but sometimes what, what
you described is also we overthink.
Um, you know, there's analysis
paralysis, trying to be- Oh, yeah.
Absolutely … trying to be perfect.
Waiting for, you know, I
need to know all the answers.
I need to be really right before I do.
Mm-hmm.
And, and, um, well, you know, uh,
actually recently I put a post on
LinkedIn, uh, on, on this topic,
was something about, uh, you know,
perfection is the enemy of progress.
And sometimes progress is more
important than trying to be perfect.
Um, so, um- Exactly.
Mm-hmm … thank you, Andrew.
Um, Samir, I'm wondering what comes to
your mind, I mean, in terms of what you
would advise your younger self, um, what
would you do, do more, less, or different?
Samir Mokashi: So one of the biggest
things I have learnt along my journey
is to not be afraid of failure.
Yeah.
There are many times I see a lot of people
who are talented and said, "Oh, not this
one. I'll take the next one And I said,
"Why not you and why not now?" "Oh, I
would mess it up." Mm-hmm. "But somebody
else could mess this up even bigger.
Why not your mess and you learn from it?"
So that's- Let
Andrew Bennett: me, let-
Samir Mokashi: Go ahead.
Andrew Bennett: No, I was gonna say,
let, let me add to that real quickly.
Um, you guys probably, if I had to
guess, if you're into any kind of
sports, you might be into cricket, right?
So, but I, I grew up playing
American baseball, which is, has a
sort of re- comparison to cricket.
A lot of my analogies in my life
are, are sports related, teammate
related and, and w- what you just
said, Samir, is this idea of failing.
Like, playing baseball or playing
cricket, you gotta be afraid… You,
you're taking your at bats, and you
gotta keep taking those at bats.
And in both of those sports, um,
sometimes success is, you know, 30%, uh,
three times out of 10, uh, is success.
And so, uh, maybe more in cricket.
But, um, I've always said that you
gotta keep taking those at bats and
not be afraid to miss, swing and miss.
Uh, because again, you're not gonna
learn if you don't take that swing.
Yep.
Samir Mokashi: In, in some of those
things, I, as I mentor people, I
actually learn more about what I did
and what I can do than- Mm-hmm … than
what I would've done without it.
So mentoring is a big part of it.
And I often tell this story about my dog.
Uh, growing up I wanted a German Shepherd.
My ideal was a Jeep and German
Shepherd next to, sitting next to
me and going into the wilderness.
Yeah.
But my sisters didn't like
dogs, so I didn't have a dog.
So finally when I got
a house, we got a dog.
It had to be German Shepherd.
We were going to have kids soon,
so we researched everything.
Everything was perfect, and we got a dog.
Well, it was a very
dominant German Shepherd.
Not aggressive, but very dominant.
He would challenge me all the time.
So we figured out, got some dog
trainers, things like that, and
started doing it, and then finally
we found a trainer that would do it.
But it was still, always, till about three
years old, he would keep challenging me.
And, and, and I was the master to him, so
he would listen to me, but reluctantly.
At three years, something just clicked.
We would listen, and
sometime he would talk.
German Shepherds talk a lot.
And then I started listening to him
talk, and then I would respond to it.
Instead of pushing him, I would
go around him or make him come
to me and things like that.
And his eyes lit up.
And finally I was saying to him, "Why
don't you understand my language?"
And finally his eyes lit up and said,
"Dad, you understand my language." That
was a light bulb for me, that, that-
Yeah … I may not be communicating
even though I think I'm communicating.
So finding the right way to communicate in
a different style than what I'm used to is
what I often go back to, is why is that…
Not why is that person not listening.
Why is that person not understanding
what I'm trying to tell them?
What is keeping me from
saying it in the right way?
And that can make a difference.
Sandesh Joshi: W-well said.
And I think I, I relate to that, uh, in
the sense, uh, of day-to-day working with
people, leadership, is that sometimes
if, if I'm not getting the results I--
that I want f-from the team or otherwise,
often it's about what do I need to
do differently so that the team will
do it or will deliver what I expect?
And a lot of time it's, you know, about
communicating in a language that not,
you know, I speak, but how people will
understand or the team I'm working with.
So very well said.
Um, Andrew, I'm wondering, you
know, fast-forward, uh, if you
talk about today, what is, um,
you know, what excites you today?
Any specific project you're working on?
Uh, can you talk about that?
Andrew Bennett: Yeah, that's a, that's
a loaded question because, um, s- ever
since the pandemic, which was kind of
a really, uh, tough time for everybody,
uh, our work has taken off in, in a
way that we're doing some, some of the
most super exciting projects that I've
done in my whole career, even though
they're probably more challenging to
deliver those projects than they've ever
been because of a lot of circumstances.
Um, I've got three projects that I
wanted to mention, and, and they--
ironically, they all start with a
C. Um, I've got two hot- two hotels
that are opening, one in two weeks.
So we have the World Cup, obviously,
that's coming to the, to mainland US, uh,
actually also Canada and Mexico, I think.
But we have nine matches
in the Dallas area.
And so we have a hotel that's
opening up for the World Cup, uh,
here locally, and it's 143 keys.
It's about a $40 million project.
And I tell you that it's 143 keys
and $40 million because the next one
I'm gonna talk about has the same key
count, but a very different price point.
Um, this is a boutique hotel.
Uh, it's a, a c- a client that
we've done a lot of work with.
It's a, um, they're called
the Valencia Group, and the
hotel's called Caravan Court.
And we're really excited to see this
project open up and be kind of there
for the patrons of the, the World
Cup matches to come and stay and
enjoy themselves and actually have
a really good time, we hope, right?
So 200 miles south of us in Austin,
where I went to school, there's
a resort that's being built too
that we are also the architect
of, and it's called Canyon Ranch.
It's a wellness resort.
It's also 143 keys, but it's a $300
million project, and it's going
to be the largest spa in Texas.
And, um, we have a really amazing
client in, in, uh, you know, an
amazing patron to the project.
Um, we do a lot of collaborations,
so we are actually the architect of
record for a design architect, and
it's the most well-known, most aw-
award-winning, uh, architecture firm
in Texas, a firm called Lake|Flato.
Uh, we partner with them on
several projects, and, um,
they're really good collaborators.
They're a lot of fun to work with.
And, um, a- as the architect of record,
I become the responsible party and I,
you know, I still, I'm on, I've been
on weekly meetings for almost two years
now because as you might imagine, that,
that's a pretty steep price, 300 million.
We're building it out in the country
where there's new water treatment plant.
There was no utilities, no infrastructure
there, so we had to build our own
power, um, and, and also still honor
nature and still be sustainable and
still be a beautiful place to go.
And so it's a really exciting
project that will open up in the
sort of September, October timeframe.
The third project that I'm really excited
about is here again locally in Dallas.
Uh, we find ourselves the architect
of a, a two tower mixed use
project that will be $650 million.
And, uh, it's also got
a hotel in it, 214 keys.
It'll be the first Marriott
addition, uh, hotel in the
Texas, uh, region or Dallas area.
And then it's also got 60 branded condos.
And then in the other tower, we
have 400,000 square feet of office.
And BocaPal has been, uh, over my
whole career here, 30-plus years, a
full service, uh, architecture and
interior design firm, and we've done
this kind of- collaborative architect
of record or design architect.
So the Caravan Corps and Chalk Hill
we're designing, uh, but we have c-
uh, interior- other interior design
partners and things like that.
Um, our firm grew up as a corporate ar-
corporate architecture workplace firm,
but we've very much more diversified
now, and that's really exciting.
So that's why all three of those I
mentioned are mostly hospitality with a
little bit of office in the third one.
But I can't tell you, that's a pretty
exciting time for me right now, and
it's, um, it's gonna be a fun summer.
And, uh, getting the other one, the third
one under, getting it, uh, we're trying
to break ground this summer, too, so.
Sandesh Joshi: Wonderful.
I'm excited.
And I hear three quite different projects,
and I, I hear a lot of excitement
of course, uh, uh, as you speak.
But I'm wondering, what
are the challenges?
You know, what's hidden
behind that excitement?
I'm sure it's not easy to accomplish
these three different projects.
What comes to your mind?
Andrew Bennett: Well, in the, the first
two that are opening this summer, it's
getting them to the finish line, right?
So, like, there's a lot of tension
out there in Arlington right now
for the one that opens in 10 days.
Uh, just getting…
Like, being a good communicator with
our, our con- contractor, with our owner.
Being always there to support
them, making sure that we've
answered all their questions and,
and, and been there for them.
Uh, same thing f- with the one in Austin.
Like, there's a lot of pressure to
get a, a very expensive property
looking really good because they'll
pay a lot of money to go to that one.
Over $1,000 a night for those,
for those hotel rooms in the, in
the, uh, Canyon Ranch project.
And then the, the one that's
Chalk Hill, we're still trying
to get our final financing.
And so the, the, the sort of the
challenge there is doing all the
right amount of work for our owners
so that we can actually get permits
and, and have, like, like, these
milestones that we have to meet so
that the financing will release itself.
And as you might imagine, for a project
that has a 650 million price tag,
there's a lot of, uh, nervousness
about, like, can we really get it going?
Can we get enough condos reserved?
'Cause there's reservation condos that are
a threshold, uh, to some of the financing.
And, um, you know, it's, uh,
it's unique because it's one of
the bigger projects we've done
in, in our, kind of our history.
Uh, but it's, it's a fun challenge to
try to climb that mountain and get there.
Uh-
Sandesh Joshi: And I… As you
described that, I hear… I mean,
of course, you're an architect.
You're d- doing architectural work, but
you're really, on these large projects,
you're also thinking business, you
know, from a client point- Oh, you have
Andrew Bennett: to.
Yeah
… Sandesh Joshi: helping
them- Yeah, you have
Andrew Bennett: to
… Sandesh Joshi: add value.
Make sure you add value, um, because
at, at the end of the day, that's really
what the client is asking for, so.
Andrew Bennett: Yeah, they sp-
they speak a different language
about their whole business.
You know, the pro forma and how they're
building that project, and you have to…
I can't learn all of that.
It goes way over my head, but I
definitely have to respect it and,
like, lean into helping meet their
milestone delivery, uh, points.
Sandesh Joshi: Well- Makes sense.
Um, so Sameer, I know you have
done a lot of things, a variety
of things over, over your career.
I'm wondering, you know, what,
what are you working on now?
What is, uh, what excites you today?
Samir Mokashi: So one of the things
is, is where I'm at right now is
financially I am doing really well.
So, so, so we have generational
wealth, so I don't need to make
money anymore, which is a good thing.
But for a personality like
me, I can't stop working.
I was never going to retire.
So for me, the adventure is
how do I-- what do I do next?
And I, I definitely knew I wanted to
help people, especially entrepreneurs,
uh, transition as I did from, from, from
a startup to a well-run, uh, company
to, to exiting, uh, to, to the, uh,
life and plan that they, they deserve.
That kind of thing was doing.
Then when I started Code Unlimited,
my biggest thing, what I did was
actually peel away rather than add on.
I try to make it simple.
I try to focus and identify what is the,
what is the key thing that I bring to
the table that nobody else brings, right?
I lo-- I don't like to
go in a crowded market.
I, I, I prefer blue oceans
rather than red oceans, right?
So in this instance, what I found is one,
in the Pacific Northwest, I have a lot
of contacts, architecture engineering
firms that I worked with who are my
clients, or I was their client, who are
now at the stage of trying to figure
out what next, and I can help them.
But I also found out that the economic
situation right now, the way it is,
India is a very big opportunity that
is starting up and in five, 10 years,
it'll be even bigger opportunity.
So I've got a couple of architectural and
engineering firms in India I'm mentoring
and helping them build their value in
the, the possibility that somebody in
the US will acquire them eventually.
And, and that helping them prepare
so that they became valuable to a
company in the US because they might
be successful in India, but to have
an ownership from a different country
is a different cultural aspect.
So helping them prepare that.
So that is very exciting to me.
And, and, and in, in that one, actually,
I am learning as I go, figuring out
how do I help them, because after
being in the US for thirty years,
I'm more American than Indian.
Mm-hmm.
So I have to relearn my Indianness and,
and, and teach them my Americanness
in order to get them the blend to do.
So that is a very interesting challenge
for me and very exciting challenge.
The, the firms I'm working with
here is the typical-- I, I work with
firms that are making between one
million to ten million revenues,
so I don't want to go too big.
I want to stay in the small and
help these firms find big firm who
want to acquire them, get them ready
for acquisition, so they can become
attractive for that firm, right?
But the biggest part in, in these
size firms is the, the owner or
the, or the majority partner is
the bottleneck Everybody looks
to them for all the decisions.
And they say, "Oh, I delegate,"
but they all come back to him or
her asking them what next, right?
So how do you truly delegate
and give away responsibility
and not worry about it, right?
So these kind of things.
And then the second thing that I,
common challenge I face with this
type of group is how to go to the
next level of business development.
So when you're starting out, it's
a personality, personal-based
business development.
When you walk away from the firm, do
you leave with all the clients, all
the relationships, everything is gone?
How do you transition that and
still trust the people to do
the things they want to do?
So that's a very different mindset
change and, and numbers game.
Most of them hate numbers.
And I have to get down to them and say,
"I'm not gonna give you logarithms,
just addition, subtraction. That's
all." It is really that simple.
It is not complicated.
You take in money and cost go out, right?
That's it.
That simple.
But you have to track it diligently
and regularly and ask good questions.
That is the hardest thing.
The, the one thing that makes
entrepreneurs successful
is our stubbornness.
Uh-huh.
We keep going in spite of, and
everything else, and then when we grow,
that becomes our challenge because
we, we think we know best now that
we have done all these great things.
Who will tell me what to do better?
I've already done the greatest
thing I could do, right?
That's a challenge.
Yep.
I come with street cred there because
I've done it and listened, so they
listen to me, so that works for me.
Sandesh Joshi: Great.
Good.
I think you talked about, I mean, uh,
I'm kind of, uh, relating to something
I read is working on the business
versus working in the business.
Yes,
Samir Mokashi: absolutely.
Sandesh Joshi: Um, and it's a mindset.
It's, uh, uh, and sometimes I, uh,
I think it takes a push, sometimes
a, some trigger to start doing that.
But often once you get over that
hump, uh, there's an aha moment,
and- Yes … you never go back.
Yes.
And you never want to go back.
Samir Mokashi: Yes.
Sandesh Joshi: Um, so I'm wondering,
you know, in the AEC industry, you're
helping principals, business owners, uh,
uh, you know, architects or, or other
firms essentially get a better valuation.
Um, how do you do that?
Or rather, you, you kind of talked about
some of the challenges, but, um, how do
you essentially navigate those challenges?
How… If, if we have listeners
thinking about, you know, I, I
want to someday sell my company,
what, what should they be thinking?
Andrew Bennett: So one of
the biggest thing is, is
Samir Mokashi: seeing your firm from
somebody else's perspective, right?
Yeah.
We all see our- That's a good one … firm
from our side and say, "Oh, look at all
the things I'm doing." But you go to a
supermarket, and you don't buy everything
that's on the shelf either, right?
So, so, so you have to look at it from
the buyer's perspective, first of all.
And then for many businesses, you have
to let go your preconceived notions
of who the buyer will be Just when
you started out to bu- sell your
services, you didn't just pick one
person you will sell your service to.
You saw everybody who
will come into the door.
Initially, you just came to whoever
came by, and then eventually
found people who like you rather
than the people you like, right?
Business works because of the client
seeing the value in the business.
The same thing is important, and that's
where I, I improve value on the business
is, is, is helping a system approach
in the business, where a lot of times
common problem, role definitions.
Everybody does everything.
Because as a small business, you want
people to plug in if something goes wrong.
But when a big business
comes, that's chaos.
So simplifying
Sandesh Joshi: systems- Well said.
I think- Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, well said.
I think I… I'm thinking, you know,
the way you're describing, you know,
be the buyer of your business rather…
think like a buyer of your business
rather than a seller of your business.
Yes.
Yeah.
And
Andrew Bennett: that,
Sandesh Joshi: that will
question you in so many ways.
Um- Yeah,
Andrew Bennett: if, if I can jump in here.
You're, you're gonna be asking us
a question in a minute, Sandesh,
about future challenges and, and
the biggest changes in our industry,
and Samir's already hitting
on one of the big ones, okay?
So let me just tell you, BOCA Pals a 70
first… 70-person firm in Dallas, Texas.
You mentioned we have
offices around the country.
The offices are in Austin, Texas
and Denver, Colorado, and we-
our sister city of Fort Worth.
You have to have an office
in there or you're not gonna
get work in our sister city.
So, uh, we have a very successful,
uh, gentleman running that office.
But what's happening to a firm like
ours, who just celebrated our 50th year
in business, is we are still seen as
this local regionalized, uh, I, I dare
say mom and pop firm after 50 years.
And so you've got these large mega
firms, and I won't name names,
but you know some of those names.
I know Samir knows these names.
Yes.
But they, they are swallowing
up and, and, and crushing.
And especially, I don't know, I
haven't spent much time in the…
I've, we, we partnered with a firm
in Seattle, but I haven't… Are
you in the Portland area, Samir?
Yeah.
Samir Mokashi: I, I was in Seattle
Andrew Bennett: for- Yeah … three
Samir Mokashi: years
actually before I came back.
Andrew Bennett: Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
So but the DFW market, the Dallas-Fort
Worth market, is still sort of
exploding because of like, uh,
cost of living and our, you know,
tax situation, things like that.
So we've got all this influx of people,
which means there's an influx of
companies, influx of growth, which also
means all of these large superpower
firms are wanting to go, come here
and make sure they have a, a presence.
And it's really been making
our lives so much harder.
The kind of firms now that go after
small projects that would have been
something that they would have never gone
after, everybody goes after those now.
And so I've already jumped the , the
question a little bit, Sandesh, but
that's one of our biggest challenges
as a little s- a little 70-person firm,
uh, is to, uh, you know, fend off or
not get squashed by these, these large,
um- The high- they, they, they're
highly leveraged with so much resources.
The resources, they have offices
around the world, um, they have
infinite amount of… They can
work in many time zones like India.
You know, all those things can,
like, be it to their benefit.
So that's a, that's a
big challenge for us.
Sandesh Joshi: Yeah.
I mean, you definitely
read my mind, Andrew.
I was gonna ask- … about, uh, you know,
what, what are your current or future
challenges in general, but I think, um,
you know, m- and that's something I hear
from my, a lot of our customers as well.
We support our customers with, by
building teams for them remotely.
Mm-hmm.
And often the biggest challenge, or the
reason the companies work with clients,
rather work with us, is access to talent.
Um, and m- hiring and retaining
talent is not easy, um- No … and
especially scaling up and down as
you need is even more challenging.
Andrew Bennett: Yes,
Sandesh Joshi: absolutely.
And especially, you know, scaling
up, up and down is even worse.
Um, so I'm wondering, you know,
piggybacking on, Andrew, something you
said, the challenges, um, do you see
any solutions, or how do you deal with
it, or how, how should a company deal
with, uh, the upcoming challenges?
Andrew Bennett: So we, we've leveraged
this notion that if we wanna be more
of a design firm, then outsourcing is
something that we have to really embrace.
Uh, we have… I would, I
would say we've dabbled in it.
Um, we've partnered with
some, uh, an Indian company.
We've partnered with, uh, we, on our
graphics side of things, from a graphics
delivery for high-end renderings, there's
some very affordable Chinese options that
we've used that have been very successful.
Um, there's a little bit of a trend
towards using firms that are in
a similar time zone in the, sort
of the South American markets,
uh, that we've kind of, they're,
they're calling on us quite a bit.
I think leveraging the ability to
manage, uh, affordable help in other
places where these people have all
gotten really amazing educations too.
They've gone to, uh, really great
colleges, uh, in their own home
countries, but even sometimes coming
to the, to the States and then getting
their education and going back home
to be closer to family or whatnot.
Um, tho- those have, those have been
the things that we've started to, like,
lean into that we think, you know, we
almost have to do to help ourselves.
And then I think we're gonna get
into it in a minute, but the other
big challenge for architecture firms
right now is kind of this AI influx.
And, um, I can certainly speak
to that kind of as we move in
further into the conversation.
Um, but we've never been a firm
that's afraid of what's coming.
Um, we were one of the first firms in the
Dallas area to, like, embace- embrace 3D
modeling in the late '80s, uh, early '90s.
And so, um, that was one of the
ways we found we could compete
with a very, very large firm.
A, a firm that might have 2,000
or 3,000 people and we only
have 70 is, is technology.
And so, um, that's gonna be a key part
of our discussion, I think, for, for
the last part of this, I would imagine.
Sandesh Joshi: Yeah.
So I'm wondering, I mean,
AI, yes, AI is a buzzword.
Everybody is, uh- Yeah … trying
to figure out what does it mean?
How can I embrace that?
Uh, you know, is it a challenge?
Um, you know, friend or foe?
So Sameer, I know you've worked
with so many companies, you have
worked with so many companies.
Uh, where do you see AI fit in?
How are companies, um, challenging AI
or, you know, getting scared of AI?
What's going on?
Samir Mokashi: I think AI is
a buzzword right now, and it's
still very much in its infancy.
We don't know how it
will evolve in the end.
I mean, if you look at Facebook
was create Meta and Metaverse,
it didn't go anywhere, right?
So there are things that don't go
anywhere as well, but eventually it
will evolve into something that will
be fruitful I think AI is here to stay.
I just don't think we know what AI is yet.
Okay?
Uh, and I think one of the things
about AI, just like automation,
computers, internet, is it, it will be
a great equalizer, like Andrew said.
Now, when I started Code Unlimited, the
internet had just started to come forward,
and as a small firm, I had access to
information and data I didn't have before.
I had to have so many books, a big
library, and, and experts on my,
uh, uh, phone book that call, I
could call, et cetera, et cetera.
But with internet, I could do it.
So AI will do something similar.
I use AI as well, and I'm not a technology
person, but I'm finding that it's,
it's helping me quite a bit as well.
And, and part of the challenge
with AI is reliability, right?
I think one of the things that I always
looked about AI as an advantage to
firms like Andrew's firm right now is
a gathering of institutional knowledge.
Mm-hmm.
Your, your biggest advantage of a firm
is your institutional knowledge that your
competitor doesn't have, but when a key
person retires or leaves, that is lost.
AI can go through that and collect
that for the young team coming in
and bring that together and forward.
So that is definitely a way to kinda
hone what you have today and present
it in even better format than that.
A lot of the people in, in the
industries that I am in and I've
been in are the thinkers, and when
it actually comes to writing it down
and putting it down, they hate that.
AI can- Mm-hmm … simplify that.
So what- No, absolutely … we
did in Code Unlimited is we
actually hired technical writers.
So the engineers and, and code consultants
would develop something, and then
the technical writers would write it.
So the technical writers actually
enjoy writing this complicated stuff,
and they had a lot of fun doing it.
And our senior, uh, tech- technical
experts enjoy more, solving more
problems and not having to write
how they solve the problem after
they solve the problem, right?
So, so that, that mind shift that, that,
that where can I leverage AI to make my
best even better and my chores even less?
If you just- Yeah, that's-
look at that-
Andrew Bennett: Very well said.
Samir Mokashi: Yeah
Mm-hmm … then you would get it.
One of the things about competition and
about the size you're talking about,
Andrew, even as code consultant, we were
pretty good size for code consultants,
uh, by the time we were about 40 person
firm, but not quite Jensen Hughes,
which was the big behemoth, right?
Andrew Bennett: Exactly.
Yep, for sure.
You've been- I know them well.
Mm-hmm.
Samir Mokashi: And then I would go
to other firms and, "Hey, let's-"
Let's compete against the big
elephant in the room by collaborating.
Uh-huh.
And I would not find any takers.
People were so afraid to,
afraid to lose their job.
I said, "There is enough work for
all of us if we work together."
Yes.
Yeah.
But that's the challenge.
If we can get people to think that they,
um, not every firm is your competitor.
You can collaborate against
somebody else, right?
So, so you could, you could have
the, uh, the Pacific Northwest
team competing against the, the
Southeast team, for example, right?
Andrew Bennett: Sure.
Samir Mokashi: And, and,
and leverage- Mm-hmm
each other's strengths.
And, but- Yeah … but that
thinking is not there yet.
Maybe it will happen after AI
Sandesh Joshi: Yeah, I think sometimes,
uh, you just have to ask, as you said.
Right.
You know, people want to do it,
uh, but they're afraid or s- you
know, something is stopping them,
and somebody just ask and, uh, you
know, suddenly people come together.
Um, um, back to you, Andrew, I'm
wondering, AI, I mean, how… Are
you leveraging AI in your company?
Are you thinking about it?
What, uh, you know, what's going on?
Andrew Bennett: So I, I, I mentioned
sort of briefly that right now one of
the most powerful things that we're doing
is we're doing our high-end graphics and
embellishing and making our design work
even look better with simple AI prompts.
Um, unfortunately for our Chinese
friends, that's probably gonna
eliminate the need to be buying
high-end renderings from China.
Um, y- we've had a really
good run with them.
They've been great partners.
Um, but if, if we've got these AI tools
that are literally… The exponential
curve on, on the change is, is happening
so quickly, and I think I agree with
Samir that it's, there's a large
unknown, and there's so many players
out there that are also trying to do the
startup game, but there's gonna be some
settling down of, like, what works best.
And right now the graphics side
works great because the liability
is, uh, it's still subjective.
It's like, it doesn't look good.
But I think you've g- a- a- again,
being a code expert, Samir, like we
are now using AI to like search, uh,
the international building code, and
it takes you right to a section and
gives you s- but you have to ch- verify.
You gotta check because your liability
is gonna be stronger if you miss on that.
I'll give you a really good example
that's not even from BoKappell, but my
son, who is 30 years old and much more
technically savvy than me, is a mechanical
engineer for one of my, uh, our consulting
engineering firms that works with us.
He is, he's running their AI task force,
and he's taken all of their company
standards, and he's put them in a box.
And so that box now is something
that they can check their work
against their standards 'cause that
little AI box that's been created
can use what they've been doing as
best practices and, and check that.
And so the efficiency that's there or,
uh, uh, Samir made another good point,
like we've had a lot of gray-haired
silver-haired experts retire, so
now our quality control and our,
our, our, our code review and our
drawing review, you know, we don't
have the, the senior level expertise.
So AI is kind of like the shortcut.
As long as you make sure the sources
are right or you're… Like, like I
said in my son's example, he's kinda
loaded their company profile into a box.
It's pretty fascinating stuff, and I
think it's really gonna be taking off
here in the next, um, 12 to 24 months.
Sandesh Joshi: Yeah.
I mean, AI is, um, is a mystery, it's
a challenge, it's an opportunity.
It's all wrapped in together.
Um, and it's for all of us to really
figure out, um, how, how can we really,
um, m- make it, make it work for us.
Um,
Andrew Bennett: so- Yeah, let me
give you one more quick example.
Sure.
So like, I'm a design architect, right?
I don't want to be… I respect
that we have to do amazing door
hardware schedules, and door
hardware is something that makes
a work- project work functionally.
I know you're a fan.
Yeah.
But if I never have to do another door
hardware schedule 'cause AI did it
without errors or, like, less errors,
um, those are very painstaking tasks.
Um, partition schedules that meet, um,
UL listings, that have to meet codes.
Uh, if I can get AI to
do those things, why not?
Like, then I can, uh, leverage my people
to do the much more artistic, creative…
I mean, I think it's, the architectural
aesthetics and structural implications
of where this is all going are
gonna be crazy amazing, um, because
of the freedoms it's gonna create.
Sandesh Joshi: Absolutely.
So as we come to a close of our
podcast, uh, you know, this, uh,
this podcast is about really helping
to be leaders, to become leaders.
And I'm wondering, as you look
back, uh, if I can ask you a
question, what 30-second advice
do you have for someone mid-career
looking to expand into leadership?
Um, who would like to go first?
Um, maybe Andrew.
Andrew Bennett: Uh, sure.
I'll, I'll jump in.
I mean, I'm gonna go back to that
fundamental of listening and caring.
Um, but somebody that's in the middle of
their career, one of the things they have
to do, and this is something that is my
mantra, is keep that positive outlook.
If you start getting negative and feeling
like, "Oh, the world is against me," you
know, it, the… I think that's karma.
That's gonna take you there.
You have to sort of look for the,
the sunlight, and you gotta look
for the opening, and you gotta,
like we talked about earlier in this
conversation, you gotta take it.
You gotta take that at bat.
You gotta pay attention and go where the
energy is and go where the opportunity
is and, and then take advantage of
it without getting, without being
bitter, and, uh, lead by example.
Be a, be a positive force
for, for positive change.
Sandesh Joshi: Wonderful.
Samir, what's your take?
I,
Samir Mokashi: I agree what Andrew
is saying, and I would build upon it.
I think at that stage you start comparing.
Where, where I'm at 40,
where I should be at 40.
Where I'm at 50, where I should be at 50.
Mm-hmm.
And that's the wrong thing to do.
It's, it's recognizing that you are
gained a lot of knowledge and some
wisdom, and, and your next goal is to
gain more wisdom and less knowledge.
Okay?
Sandesh Joshi: Mm.
Samir Mokashi: So, so, so give away
knowledge and you will have room for
wisdom, and you'll be a wise leader.
Andrew Bennett: That's
re- beautifully said.
Sandesh Joshi: That's a
wise statement, I would say.
Andrew Bennett: Yeah.
You both have said some
very… I've been taking notes.
You both have said some wonderful things.
Sandesh Joshi: Well, with that, you know,
thank you, Andrew and Samir, for being
so open and honest, and most importantly,
vulnerable, sharing your stories,
uh, for the benefit of our audience.
IndoOne's tagline is, "Let's grow
together." In that spirit, sincerely
appreciate you being open and vulnerable,
uh, sharing your career stories,
and helping us all grow together.
Thank you once again,
and have a wonderful day.
Samir Mokashi: Thank you very much.
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Thanks for having us.
That was awesome.
Nice to meet you, Andrew, virtually.
Nice to meet you, Samir.
Take care.