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We discuss how churches are strengthening discipleship and helping people grow in confidence in the Bible in a changing culture.
The Quiet Revival Podcast: what's the story? explores the stories behind a renewed interest in Christianity in England and Wales.
Whether you’re a church leader, small group leader, Bible communicator or simply curious about the Church in the UK, this podcast will inform, encourage, and equip you to discover your place in this unfolding movement.
The Quiet Revival sparked a national conversation about faith, church and what God might be doing in England and Wales today. Since its publication and the recording of these podcast episodes, we've had to retract the report after the underlying data was found to be flawed – but the conversation it started hasn't ended.
The Quiet Revival was always more than a single survey. Across England and Wales we're seeing signs of renewed interest in Christianity, especially among younger people: rising Bible sales, more conversions and adult baptisms, growing attendance at evangelism courses. Many of you have shared stories that point to a changing spiritual landscape. The questions this moment raises are more important than ever.
How is your church responding to this missional moment? And how can you invite today’s spiritually open Gen Z to experience Scripture?
Sian (00:04)
What are the barriers to people coming to faith in this season and how can we as church leaders have conversations around those things?
Andrew (00:13)
The gap between searching online and actually coming in person. I think that gap is bigger than we give credit to to younger people especially.
Sian (00:20)
If I'm going to be discipling somebody who's discipling me, who am I accountable to? How am I growing? And, you know, I need to be engaging with the Bible myself in order to be able to help someone else.
Andrew (00:33)
Yeah. There are two different kinds of questions people have about the Bible. So the evidence basis is is it true? The ethics questions is is it good? How do we help people feel that the the text we have is reliable?
Sian (00:45)
How are we building a life that is centered around Jesus in our Bible readings? I would say it's to do with what you're asking of that person, essentially, not just the tool. So how are you engaging with the Bible? How much are reading? Are we expecting too much or too little? Hello and welcome to this final episode of the Quiet Revival podcast, What's the Story? Where we've been sharing church leadership stories.
to encourage greater discipleship and ways to increase confidence in the Bible. I'm Sian.
Andrew (01:20)
And I'm Andrew, and it's been such a joy sharing the stories and experiences of how different churches up and down England and Wales have been approaching discipleship and raising Bible confidence. And whether you're in a big city, urban or rural town, it's been great to be able to share approaches that have actually worked for a range of contexts, capturing something of what Bible mission might look like in this spiritual moment.
Sian (01:43)
Yeah, it's been amazing actually just to hear what the Lord is doing up and down the nations. But we want to use this final episode as an opportunity to talk about some of the ideas and questions that you've raised with us over the course of series two. We've had some great questions from the practicalities of leading study groups to how we can have better conversations about faith both in and out of the church. So let's get stuck in. Let's kick off with our first question.
So one of the questions that we've been asked is basically, what are the barriers to people coming to faith in this season and how can we as church leaders have conversations around those things? And actually that was a question that we posed at a Bible engagement summit that we held in Cardiff to the leaders that were gathered there. It was really interesting to hear their responses because so many of them were feeding back that
so much is going on outside of the church service that people are having conversations about God and reading parts of the Bible, going on TikTok, going on YouTube and finding out different things and almost coming to the church sort of part of and ready, if that makes sense. That they have already heard so many things and have so many questions about Jesus and just turning up with this sort of list prepared. Is that something you've seen?
Andrew (03:02)
It is, definitely. I think that sense that people I mean, I was thinking about one of our we we ran an alpha course and I just remember just talking to a couple of people either side of me. And whereas in the past people may have come on Alpha as the first point of exploration, these guys had already done a lot of listening. They were th part of the reason they were on Alpha they had already been listening to podcasts and down some YouTube rabbit holes. So it was it's both really helpful. They're not it's not a standing start. Right.
Is it I I don't know what you think, but it's almost like one of the barriers is how do we deconstruct some of the impressions that may have been given online. I mean, for one thing, one of these guys, he was like, he'd obviously seen some TikTok reel of an incredibly Pentecostal experience of church, and our Anglican church wasn't quite the same, and so he's like, Which is the r which is the proper church? And I'm like, Well, they're kind of both proper church, you so you're almost just having those conversations. It's not a standing start, but sometimes we have to to do a bit of deconstructing as well, don't you think?
Sian (03:57)
Yeah, and it's a more kind of conversational moment, isn't it? And not assuming that, somebody knows nothing about the Bible and about Jesus, but also, you know, just listening and hearing where they're at. Because, as I said, you know, the sales in the Bible are going through the ceiling at the moment, aren't they, which is wonderful. And so, we've got to assume that people are reading, are engaging with some of the texts. But then...
The question is, I guess, are we ready as congregations, as church leaders to engage at that level? We've seen so many times in this podcast about the high bar of discipleship and discipleship doesn't begin sometimes with going to church anymore, does it? It's happening online, it's happening in cafes and connection points outside of church before they even come to us.
Andrew (04:45)
Yeah, and I think one of the barriers will be where someone has no way into that. So they they may they may be in immersed in the digital content, immersed in the digital digital discipleship, we might think. Whether it's good or bad discipleship, it is dis it's a formational process when you're online. But if they don't have a friend, you know, a real human person, then they potentially are just lost in digital holes and rabbit holes. One of the barriers I think is probably do you know someone? Right.
Who you can say, I'd like to come to church. Can I come with you? Because if you don't, turning up, just literally turning up. And this is one of the things, I mean, I think where wherever we get to in the in the data, the quiet revival data is being re-redone, and we'll see where that goes. Wherever we get to, I've got this feeling that even if the number of people at church is lower than we'd thought, the number of people online looking into the Christian faith is way higher than we've ever dared to imagine, I think. But the gap between
Searching online and actually coming in person, I think that gap is bigger than we we almost give credit to to younger people especially. Right. So it's how do we reduce the barrier, the friction of distance between looking up listening to a podcast, watching on YouTube, social media, how do we get closer to coming to church? I d I don't know.
Sian (06:01)
And you were talking about having a friend who will take you. The question that I've been posed probably three times in recent months is, am I allowed to come to church?
Andrew (06:11)
Yeah.
Sian (06:11)
Which seems like a bizarre thing because the answer is, of course you can come to church, but crossing that threshold is a really, really big deal. you seen any of that?
Andrew (06:21)
Yeah,
absolutely. I've heard that. People coming up to the front door and just saying, Am I allowed in? And and if you think about it, if you went to a local golf club or whatever the equivalent might be, you'd think there would be barriers to entry. You know, you have to have a handicap of this much to play at this course or whatever. Have you been christened? You know, they they probably just think there are there rituals that have to have been performed or certain criteria I need to meet. So even just I mean, ha one way to reduce that gap between looking online and actually coming in person, I think, is that we can move the online
Content from a local church a bit closer to the person. I've seen some churches post reels where they've just basically said, if you come to our church on a Sunday, this is what you're gonna experience. And it's such a lovely way of saying online, it's actually closer to you coming in person than you might think. There is no entry requirement. this is what a service looks like. You won't be made to feel stupid because actually so I I think there's some things we can do to close that gap. But yes, just people feeling like for some reason they don't have.
permission to even be included, mm, we gotta help there.
Sian (07:23)
It's
really interesting to note a commonality throughout many of the episodes of this season, hearing about the need for discipleship in this season, and particularly a sense of, need to be confident in the Bible in order to be able to disciple others. And I remember conversations with Benjamin and Shemara where we were looking at, you know, leading up and leading down and asking, well, if I'm going to be discipling somebody who's discipling me, who am I accountable to?
how am I growing and almost that responsibility of, you know, I need to be engaging with the Bible myself in order to be able to help someone else.
Andrew (08:00)
Yeah, exactly. Cause it we've talked about the attractional, helping people come in, but there's the missional, isn't there? Sending sending our people out with confidence. And I think, you know, when that w I don't know that it's about tactics as so much as just a broad-based confidence, isn't it? That as and when opportunities arise, I'm ready to go. I can have conversations. Cause those conversations are happening. This is the point. Out there, the public conversation is warmer to the Christian faith. So there's more triggers, there's more things to spark off.
But it's almost are we discipleship wise are we helping people be ready to really, you know, be part of that and turning the conversation towards the journey towards Jesus, really. And I think that's that's the key, isn't it?
Sian (08:43)
the word isn't it? It's that journey, it's that sense of I am on this journey with Christ and so I am growing, I am moving forward, but actually then the missional aspect is how do I outwork that and how do I see other people grow as well.
Andrew (08:56)
Exactly. And I think a lot of that does at the moment, in a good way, a lot of it is orbiting around the Bible, isn't it? So you've got public conversations about the Bible and new interest, people buying Bibles, searching about the Bible. And then we need God's people, the Christians, ready to talk about the Bible. And I think one of the other questions that I think came up in our in in questions we've had fed in is how can we build a kind of confidence in the reliability of the Bible? How how do we help people feel that the the text we have
Translation and the transmission of that text is reliable. And I think that's important. I think, you know, I've often thought, I've said before, that there are two different kinds of questions people have about the Bible. Some are the evidence-based questions, and some are the ethics-based. Right. So the evidence-based is is it true? Yeah. The ethics questions is, is it good? And there's a whole load of questions around is it good? You know, we'll we'll park that for a rainy day.
But the question of is it true? You know, is the evidence, the text reliable? I mean, a few things on that. I've been asked this quite recently, actually, and I think a couple of things I points I made on that. One is that actually when it comes to the translations of the Bible that we have, just like this this one, you know, any Bible you Christian Bible you have, you'll notice that the footnotes at the bottom, and this is this is a point. I mean, there's so many points to make about the reliability of the text, but one of them I like to make is.
Where there are even tiny, minor differences between the texts that we have available today. There are over 5,000 Greek texts surviving from the New Testament. It's an incredible wealth of textual evidence. So scholars can cross-reference between those texts where there's even tiny differences, spelling or minor word placement differences. They're footnoted. And the reason I say that is.
It's it's it's as if to say, well, we're not hiding anything. Exactly. It's completely transparent. If you want to know what the differences are, they're all included. So there's no conspiracy c conspiracy. I think that's what people often fear is that there's a conspiracy. Right. In how the canon was put together, which books are in the Bible and which were left out. I've often just talked about why there's no conspiracy there. The canon wasn't put together by a committee or by a conspiracy. You know, and and it was interesting, I I
You know, I just literally had a conversation with someone. Where was I? Just the other day at a wedding. I was at a wedding on Saturday. Someone again said, Well, the r he said, I'm spiritual, but I'm not religious, because religious text, the Bible, he specifically cited the Bible, he said it's it was invented by Constantine. And I just my my response to that was just look, you know, I've just been to the Chester Beattie Library in Dublin, where we have stitched together, the early Christians stitched together books of the New Testament.
And that goes right back to the second century, w hundred a hundred plus years before Constantine and the Council of Nicaea. The early Christians were already recognizing that these books had a certain gravitas, a certain weight. They weren't inventing the Bible, they were recognizing it. You know, the the old saying is the old illustration is often used, and I like it that Sir Isaac Newton, when that apple fell on his head, he didn't invent gravity. He just recognized what what was already
At work. And in the same way, I think, you know, there's no conspiracy here. The church didn't invent the Bible, but it recognized the weight that certain books carry. And then in its transmission and t translation, it's there's still no conspiracy. Everything's transparent. You can read the differences, and those differences are relatively minor. So I think look, without there's so much more to say, isn't there? And you might you might want to add to that. But I think my point is we do need to.
not avoid these kind of evidence-based and ethics-based questions about the Bible. Because if we avoid them, we sound like we're hiding something. Right. Don't you think? I mean it's almost like if we're not prepared to to talk about some of the objections and knotty things, it sounds like we're sort of on on the defensive, almost not wanting to go there. Yeah. But I've come to the conclusion there's nothing to hide from. And it's much better, particularly the younger generation, I think. They want us to go there.
Sian (13:04)
Yeah, I think the younger generation are more likely to be asking really good questions. I think for my generation and the generations above, it was almost expected of us that we would just blanket, take something by complete faith. know, even perhaps to the point of being questioned sometimes, well, you know, how come you don't understand that? Or why don't you believe? But the younger generation seem to be asking good questions of the text and intelligent questions of the text.
And I was laughing when you mentioned Constantine and I'm like, wow, they know about Constantine, they know about the Council of NYC. That's incredible because that's stuff that my generation are just starting to learn about at Bible colleges and doing masters and graduate diplomas and whatever. But they're asking the really intelligent questions of the text and they want to interrogate it.
Andrew (13:52)
Well, I think this is so helpful because I just think that's what we've got to recognise. The podcast culture. Even the podcast culture is a phenomenon, regardless of whether it's Christian based religious content or not, it's the rise of this desire to not to not be patronized. Right. Unless you go as it as if you can't really learn anything serious unless you go to university. Right. And today so many people I mean, we're on a podcast here, so it's kind of we're we're self fulfilled.
Fulfilled prophecy. But the point is, people so many people are actually saying, I don't just want to listen to music or scroll, Doom scroll on my phone. I want to learn, I want to improve myself. So they're listening to long-form podcasts of quite high-level content. So when you know Where's Huff is on the diary of a CEO or Joe Rogan, they're they're talking about the, you know, Codex Cyanaticus and all these interesting facts, and people are leaning in. And so when you then
find that you're out in the public world at a wedding and someone's saying, well it wasn't it all stitched together by Constantine. You know, that question is coming from someone who's obviously listened to something.
Sian (14:49)
Absolutely.
Andrew (14:50)
And and we need to be ready, don't we, to sort of we don't need to be know-it-alls. Nobody wants to talk to a know-it-all anyway, least of all at a wedding. We don't need to be know-it-alls, but we do need to just feel like we're not out of the conversation. we're ready to sort of share some of the reasons why we have confidence in the Bible.
Sian (15:09)
Yeah, and I think the authenticity of our own stories when it comes to the Bible is really, really powerful. We've heard that time and time again in these episodes, haven't we? You cannot argue with someone's testimony, an encounter of Christ, whether that's through the text or whether that's through the Spirit, whether it's at a meeting or sat in your bed at home. There is power in testimonies. But I think we are moving away from just having an encounter with the Lord. That season is certainly here.
But it seems like it's a both-and season where people are genuinely wanting to know what is our place within the story of God and God's people. So that's really refreshing.
Andrew (15:49)
It is, and I just think just to add to that, you triggered a thought in my mind, which is that I think as well, yes, there are some apologetic questions about the Bible. We need to be ready to respond. Some of the questions though are just practical. Like I just don't, I that people are not coming with a sort of deep suspicion, they're not deep skeptics. They're really open. They just don't know what to do, they just don't know where to start. So I wouldn't want it people to think you have to be, you know, apologetic specialists. Sometimes you're just going to be asked, well,
I was I was just in America and I a lady there was t saying she's in her eighties. She said these young young couple had moved in next door and they brought her some muffins that they'd baked and they sat down on this, they asked if they could come in and they sat down on the sofa and it was a bit awkward and you know, like one of those awkward silences and eventually the guy just said, Th this young couple in their twenties asking this eighty year old, they just said, We we
It's a bit awkward. They we've but we've heard that you're a Christian. Would is would you be able to help us to read the Bible? Wow. It's incredible. I know I just thought, yeah, what an dissolving question. Yeah. But just that awkward innocence of like, I I hope this isn't too much trouble, but I'd actually really like some help to read the Bible. So I think, you know, both sides of the pond, we're seeing this rising interest. And some of it will be apologetic stuff, a lot of it's practical. Yeah. Just give me a bit of help.
Sian (17:10)
Yeah, and you know, we've talked about this before, I know, but it's that sense of moving away from having to be an expert to talking about somebody that you've come to know, come to love. I use the analogy of my dad, you know, who I absolutely adore. I know what makes him laugh. I know what makes him cry. I know what makes him frustrated. And, you know, I think I am the expert on my dad, essentially. If you want to know something about him, then ask me. it...
has to be a little bit like that with our Heavenly Father as well. This is what I know at the moment. I'm not saying that I know it all, but at this moment, this is what I know about Him and I'm willing to share what I know and what I've encountered of Him. And obviously, as we walk with Jesus day by day, that revelation grows. Some of our revelation changes, if we're honest, but that sense of I'm journeying towards knowing a
father, someone who is good to me, someone who makes me whole, who is setting me free from different things, you know, and that sense of this is who I am, this is who God is in my life. Let me tell you about it.
Andrew (18:13)
Yeah. Lovely.
Sian (18:14)
So in terms of raising Bible confidence, we've talked lots about this in previous weeks, but what are your thoughts about sort of leading effective small groups into...
Bible engagement into Bible study? I mean, it's a question that we've been asked time and time again, around this podcast. What are your thoughts on how we gather people, how we help them to be fed and nourished within the small group setting?
Andrew (18:40)
Well, I think firstly there's something for church leaders here, isn't there, which is let's frame the opportunity clearly and let's build our series and program as a church towards meeting that opportunity. So we just talked about there's a public conversation about the Bible. We need to be raising confidence in among Christians about the Bible.
Well, I I s I mean so many churches within the series that you've been visiting, they've been doing series, haven't they? On on, you like City Church in Carliff doing a series on the Bible. Right. churches in I've been me at speaking at in Cambridge and other places, they're doing series on the Bible because they recognise in our Sunday program and in our small groups, which is what you've referred to, we need to be bringing Christians in to the thinking, to the conversation so that they're ready for the public's setting.
I think the reason small groups are so important is because even if you do a great Sunday series, it still looks like the expert who's preaching is the one who could have a conversation with my friends. But in the small groups, we're all talking. Right. Here we're all getting into it. Here we're all opening our mouth and thinking, what would I say and how could I explain the Bible? So
You know, I really want to encourage churches to do both. You know, push something, leaders, think about. There's an opportunity here. What are we doing in our Sunday program and in our small groups that's intentionally towards that? Obviously, you know, we have our resources as Bible Society. I'd love, you know, if you haven't done the Bible course, the new edition, do the Bible course. If that's something that you've done already. We've developed other resources. I think specifically the Romans course. Really, because of Paul's
Passion in Romans to say, I'm not ashamed of the gospel. It's good news. I'm not ashamed of the good news. It's the power of God for salvation. Feels like that's for now. Yeah. So the Romans course is there as a way of raising confidence in the gospel. I've also developed a book and a series, video series on the seven toughest topics in the Bible, which a lot of churches are using as a sort of follow-on to the Bible course because it kind of loops back through that same storyline, but it relates to what I was saying earlier. Some will have questions around the evidence.
Others, it's the ethics. You know, why is there so much warfare and violence in the Old Testament? And what about sexuality and judgment in the New Testament? So I think those resources are all there. Go online, visit our website, you can see them. But I think it's, you know, there's and there's other great resources outside of what we've created. It's it's not it's not really about what you use. It's about the intention, isn't it? To say we're gonna frame this opportunity and we're gonna train, frame it and then train towards it. We're gonna equip people.
in Sundays and small groups towards it. So
Sian (21:13)
And it's interesting as well, isn't it? I think what the Bible course has done is to give us that sort of overarching oversight of the Bible and moving from theme to theme from creation right up to revelation. And I sense that, you know, there's that analogy of you wouldn't tear up a normal book, a Harry Potter or whatever, and give someone a chapter and expect to know what the overarching theme is throughout the book or even what happens at the start and the end, you know?
and start to understand the Bible as, yes, the story of God's people, but also learning about the character of God and His redemption plan and so on. I think there's riches in looking at the Bible as a whole. Is that your experience?
Andrew (21:58)
There really is. And I think it's also about saying it's a story. And in a story, things move on. So how things were in terms of the laws God gave. This is often one of the things, the laws, isn't it, of Moses? People think, why are there these strange laws in there? And some of them seem almost a bit offensive to our culture, but we're not in that chapter of the story. That's not where we are. We're not in the wilderness with Moses. We're not worshiping in the temple or with Solomon. We are.
You, you know, so just giving people a sense of here's where we fit into the story. And that's why when you're reading in this part of the story, you need to be thinking, how does that change because of the where we are and and what Jesus has done? So, yeah, giving people that big overview of the story, helping them through books like Romans, because I think that's basically what R Paul is doing in Romans, is he's really just saying, let me unpack the larger narrative of Israel. It's no coincidence that he talks about.
You know, f from Romans six and to eight, there's so much a l allusion to the story of Israel, the baptism into into in the in the in the Red Sea and then the giving of the law in Romans seven and then the coming of the spirit. These are all larger story themes, but now grounded in, well, what's our mission? Right. And where's our confidence to share this good news? So yeah, I think seeing the bigger picture is key and and helping Christians feel I can share that.
Now, what about the what about the individual though? Because we've had a question as well. I've shared more about a bit of a bit of work for you today. I've shared more about the small groups. But what do you when an individual or a church leader wants to recommend resources to an individual to get them not only once a week in their because a lot of small groups would be once a week. Yeah. And it's really helpful on a Wednesday night. But we've seen, you know, with the daily readings in the Bible course, we've seen how much more impact there is when it's a daily experience as well as the the gathered.
How do we help people get into scripture that way?
Sian (23:50)
Yes, I think it is about, you know, what resource, what tool are we going to use? But also, let's come back to this theory of change that we have spoken about so often. As we approach the Bible individually, how does it affect me intellectually? What is this passage saying? mean, you know, in the Bible course, you always say, you know, what and so what. So what is it saying? What's the context for this? And taking it aside from just being a piece of text and saying, well,
What does this mean sort of thing? And then how does this affect my emotions? That's the heart. And then how does this outwork practically the hands? So looking at it that way, perhaps instead of just saying, well, there's this and there's that, because there are thousands of tools and resources out there. You can go to YouVersion and look at a plan. You could look at Rooted, one of our devotional tools, which is very creative.
You get the Bible reading, you have an application side to it, and a so what. But I would say it's to do with what you're asking of that person essentially, not just the tool. So how are you engaging with the Bible? How much are you reading? Are we expecting too much or too little? We've heard of St Paul's Hammersmith with their youngsters doing 50 minutes a day, which is just mind-blowing and so good.
but that will be too much for some other people. So what is practical and what is going to work? How are you going to learn to feed yourself spiritually? What does that look like? Where does prayer come into this? Where does worship come into this? How are we building a life that is centered around Jesus in our Bible readings? So tools and resources.
There are plenty. I remember when we went to Siren's Cest they're saying you could watch the Bible, you can draw the Bible, you can listen to the Bible. So it's not for shortage of resources. It's getting going and making that a regular part of my life and perhaps even being accountable. I'm going to read the Bible three times this week. Can you check in on me and see that I've done it? Or I'm up in my game and I'm going to go five times a week or things like that.
Andrew (26:02)
Are you asking me to
Sian (26:04)
Well,
you could if you were... Seriously,
Andrew (26:06)
I'll I'll I'll message you at the end of the week.
Sian (26:09)
getting going and becoming a Bible, a regular Bible reader. What I started was was Holy Trinity Brompton's Bible in a year because people could see then whether I'd done it or not because there were these little ticks. And then you had to write a comment at the bottom and you couldn't get away with just faking it. You had to read it and really apply what you were reading.
And doing that within an accountability group.
Andrew (26:34)
It's so helpful because I think that's just not obvious, is it? Like if you've not brought been brought up in a home where I don't know, your parents did that or you've not been in a halls of residence where you've had a friend who's done that with you, just knowing it's just the the the sort of barriers to entry, they're so easily overcome. If you just see someone do it, it doesn't look difficult or complicated, but modeling that.
Coming alongside a new Christian and saying, Let's how about we do that together for a week so that you see what it feels like?
Sian (27:05)
And we're hearing, aren't we, of, you youngsters taking Bibles to their sporting teams. We know your son has, you know, been giving out Bibles to his teammates and just not being afraid or ashamed to say, come on, let's journey through this together.
Andrew (27:21)
Absolutely. Well we've seen in this World Cup that's just happened that gosh, the sport and i faith in sport and the Bible is just so prominent. It's time for the church to really we've got nothing to be embarrassed about. If they're not embarrassed we've got nothing to be embarrassed about. Right.
Sian (27:36)
It's been a real privilege to travel around the country and hear the stories of God really moving in this season. Thank you to all of the guests that came on this podcast. But do know what, if you've missed any of the episodes, why don't you go back in the series and check out some of the conversations that we've been having. Honestly, they are like gold and they will really feed and encourage you in this season.
Andrew (28:03)
And check out the links in the show notes to resources we mentioned even today because now is the time to equip our churches for mission and discipleship. We hope this series has really helped you do that. God bless you.