The 3 Types of Men: Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs

🎙️ Episode 38 – The 3 Types of Men: Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs

In this short but powerful episode, Mark and Zack break down a timeless framework for understanding masculinity — and challenge you to examine what kind of man you really are.

Are you a sheep who avoids conflict and responsibility? A wolf who uses strength for selfish gain? Or a sheepdog, dangerous but disciplined — a protector, provider, and man of virtue?

Drawing from movies, stories, and real client experiences, we explore how men move through these three stages and what it takes to step into your calling as a virtuous man.

What you’ll learn in this episode:
• The 3 levels of masculinity and what defines each one
• How culture confuses strength with virtue
• Why being “nice” isn’t the same as being good
• What every man must face to become who he’s meant to be
• How to take the first step on your own hero’s journey

FREE BOOK
If today’s episode hit home, I want to give you something special.
My new book "Escape the Cage” is now live, and I’m giving away a free digital copy of the first 3 chapters.
👉 Get your free copy here: https://escapethecagenow.com/subscribe/

🎧 Prefer audio-only? Listen here:
https://escapethecagenow.com/podcast

📘 Mark’s Books
https://escapethecagenow.com/books/

👕 Lion Counseling Merch
https://ttw5i6-0j.myshopify.com

📞 Book a Free Consult
https://escapethecagenow.com/call/

Click here to watch a video of this episode.’
About the Lion Counseling Podcast
The Lion Counseling Podcast helps high-achieving Christian men break free, heal deep, and become the lions they were created to be. Hosted by Mark Odland (certified EMDR therapist) and Zack Carter (counselor + coach), this show blends faith, psychology, grit, and humor to help men win the battle within. New episodes drop every Tuesday.

Creators and Guests

Host

Mark Odland

Founder of Lion Counseling, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Certified EMDR Therapist

Host

Zack Carter

Zack Carter is a Counselor and Coach with Lion Counseling LLC.

What is Lion Counseling Podcast?

The Lion Counseling Podcast helps men escape the cages that hold them back and become the Lions they were created to be. It exists to help men obtain success, purpose, happiness, and peace in their career and personal lives. The podcast is hosted by the founder of Lion Counseling, Mark Odland (Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and Certified EMDR Therapist), and Zack Carter (Counselor and Coach with Lion Counseling). In their podcasts, they address a variety of topics relevant to men, including: mental health, relationships, masculinity, faith, success, business, and self-improvement.

Mark Odland: 00:00

So, I mean, knowledge is power. And so if something's clicking right now for a guy and you're like, oh man, like, think of myself as a tough guy and I could protect my family physically, but am I protecting their hearts? Right? Maybe not. Maybe not.

Mark Odland: 00:12

And this isn't about, you know, judging or shaming you guys, but it's like, I think as men, that's part of why guys listen to us, Zach, is, we can have humor, we can have compassion, but we can also try to speak truth and try to bring some challenge and accountability as well. Welcome to the Lion Counseling Podcast. I'm Mark Ottlin, founder of Lion Counseling and certified EMDR therapist, and I'm joined by Zach Carter, counselor and coach. And our mission is to help men to break free, to heal deep, and to become the Lions they were created to be. Well, today, we're talking about masculinity.

Mark Odland: 00:48

Every man operates at a certain level of masculinity, but most never stop to ask what level they're actually living in. Today, we're breaking down the three types of men found not only in stories, in archetypes, but in real life. And so as you listen, you might discover you're further along the path than you thought or realize there's a higher level that's waiting for you. Alright. Let's jump in.

Mark Odland: 01:15

Zach, when you think about the men that you work with and even characters in movies, these kind of symbols, these archetypes, what patterns are you seeing in the guys around masculinity?

Zack Carter: 01:27

Yeah. I I think the best way to start this is, like you said, going into movies. And I think the movie American Sniper has a scene that I think really lays out manhood in a way that I I think is the easiest for us to grasp. So there's a scene close to the beginning of the movie where Chris Kyle, who is the American sniper, the the US Navy SEAL, shows him as a boy. His little brother starts getting beat up by a bully, and he comes in and just beats the mess out of this bully.

Zack Carter: 01:58

And so the two boys get brought to the parents and then doing dinner together. Mhmm. And the father is like, you know, he's trying to figure out what happened with the fight. And he said, you know, there's three types of people in the world. There's the sheep.

Zack Carter: 02:14

These are the people that can't defend themselves. They're the wolves. These are the predators. They prey on the sheep. And then there's the sheep dogs.

Zack Carter: 02:22

And these are the people that defend the weak. Right? That use their strength to help others, not using their strength to hold others down. Mhmm. So I think this is a really good picture of us as men, the three categories that are laid out that we can have in our work life, in our family life, and even to ourselves to a certain degree on how we treat ourselves.

Zack Carter: 02:47

And so that's kind of the analogy, but there's a guy named Harry Mansfield who talks about masculinity. So Mansfield, I love that that's in his name. He's from Harvard. And he basically defined he defined manhood in in three sections.

Mark Odland: 03:07

K.

Zack Carter: 03:08

We've got weak men. We've got strong men, and we've got virtuous men. So let's start with the weak men, and then I'll I'll get your thoughts on on that, Mark. K. So how do we define weak men?

Zack Carter: 03:20

Weak men are men that can't defend themselves or defend others. They're also, they tend to be immature. They tend to be hedonistic. Seeking out pleasure. Right?

Zack Carter: 03:31

They tend to try to avoid suffering. They're trying to seek that instant gratification. And they tend to lack self control. Okay. So those are weak men.

Zack Carter: 03:41

So when we go into movies, Napoleon Dynamite's brother Kip, like, everybody's smacking Kip in that movie. Like, Napoleon smacks him and runs away. He goes into the Rex Kwando studio, and Rex is, like, smacking him in the head over and over and over, and he just, like, lets it happen. Right? Kip is, like, super weak.

Zack Carter: 04:04

We have usually in movies or in books, a lot of our protagonists, a lot of our main characters start out weak. And then over the course of the movie or the book, they they grow into either strong men or into virtuous men. So Luke Skywalker, he's kinda whiny at the beginning of the first movie. He's a farmhand. Not much going on.

Zack Carter: 04:26

Bruce Wayne is a boy. You know? He's he's weak as a boy. Even as a young man, we have the scene where he he goes into the diner where all the mafia guys are hanging out. And he tries to show that he's strong, and they beat the mess out of him and kick him out of the diner.

Zack Carter: 04:41

Right? So he was a weak man at the beginning. So then he goes off to train as a ninja. Right? So that's, that's the example of weak men in media.

Zack Carter: 04:51

And so Mark, I'm curious when you have guys that come in to meet with you, that have sessions with you, what do you tend to see in weak men? What does that look like?

Mark Odland: 05:02

Wow. Yeah. That's that's a loaded question. I mean, I think I think I typically see when I'm working with with stronger men, see certain themes, certain certain strengths, and certain kind of pitfalls to watch out for. When I see guys who maybe present a little weaker, often they're struggling.

Mark Odland: 05:24

They're struggling with their their confidence. They're they're struggling with their self esteem. They are maybe don't have the skills in place that they need to kind of move forward in the world. And it's interesting because, I know Jordan Peterson's talked about this. Like, you can see a a weak boy who's been picked on, and the way he walks through a playground, just the way he carries his body, the way he holds his head high, his shoulders back, or he's slouching.

Mark Odland: 05:57

He doesn't know how to make, you know, eye contact. He is a tar he becomes a target for bullies. Right? And it's just a really it's a really sad thing. But at the same time, as you mentioned, kind of like in the movies and everything, there is this storyline where just because you you feel like you're weak in one moment in your life or because you're picked on, it doesn't mean it has to crush you.

Mark Odland: 06:22

For some, it does. Mhmm. For others, they get a little chip on their shoulder, and they start to do the work necessary to kind of level up basically. Right? So I think and I think the last thing I'd say about it, Zach, is I think we live in a very confusing time.

Mark Odland: 06:40

Right? I mean, here we are in this space of like masculinity, mental health, and faith. And those are some of the themes we continue to come back to. And I think it's complicated because even guys who are really trying to live into their masculinity, we live in a culture that almost makes it seem like something's wrong with masculinity, that almost makes it seem like weakness is something to be celebrated. And so there's a lot of kind of, it feels like you're kind of paddling upstream sometimes to figure out, like, what does it mean to be a good man?

Mark Odland: 07:12

It's not it's not easy to to navigate sometimes.

Zack Carter: 07:16

Yeah, dude. Absolutely. And yeah. And I I think so you mentioned Jordan Peterson, and we'll probably mention him a couple times in in this video, but you know, he talks about nice not being a virtue, right? Nice guys finish last, right?

Zack Carter: 07:29

And you can almost replace nice with weak in many ways. And so that's, that to be what I see with clients. Maybe they're too nice. That's what I was for a really long time. And so even when we talk about weak men, this isn't us trying to be discouraging or it's not a label that you have this on you.

Zack Carter: 07:47

The rest of your life is not in your DNA. Like this is a thing that you can overcome. This is a thing that you can work on. And so when I've seen it in my sessions, it might look like certain guys that have high anxiety where they're afraid to talk to their wife about certain problems, or they're afraid to confront their boss, or they're afraid to try new strategies to help themselves. And, you know, they become incapable of movement forward.

Zack Carter: 08:12

But even as I was preparing for the session, I wouldn't equate people with high anxiety with weakness because there's some clients I have with high levels of anxiety and they overcome that anxiety.

Mark Odland: 08:25

That's right.

Zack Carter: 08:25

To do amazing things. So just because you're having high anxiety doesn't mean you're a weak man. Right? According to this kind of like this level, the weak men just, they don't move forward. They don't try.

Zack Carter: 08:38

They don't begin to overcome the things that are holding us back. Last thought, and then we can move on to the next section. But I also see addictions, right? So that lack of self control when you're, when no one's watching, that also tends to be connected to weakness in men. That they focus on self gratification instead of like finding how to control themselves.

Zack Carter: 09:04

Right? And I think those are the kinds of people we look up to is those that like have that self control. Those Dave the David Goggins of the world that like he doesn't wanna run every morning at 4AM, but he does it anyways. Right? And I think we tend to look up to that, not the people that just just swim around in their addictions and never try to come up for air and get away from it.

Mark Odland: 09:24

Right. Yeah. There's something there's something about facing hard things. I know we're gonna get into that get into that more soon. But, yeah, I think I think that's I think that's that's right on, Zach.

Mark Odland: 09:37

And I think and I think we'll get there full circle, but it's it's almost like, how do you be strong but not be the bully? Right? How do you be strong but be the protect you know, back to your first metaphor of the sheepdog. Right? Mhmm.

Mark Odland: 09:50

Mhmm. Back, I've mentioned this before, but back when I had the privilege of meeting Doctor. Peterson, you know, one of the things he said to me was, a little compassion goes a long way. And so as men, as Christian men, we want to have compassion, we want to have empathy, but we also want that to be balanced by by truth, by virtue, by logic, by principle. Right?

Mark Odland: 10:13

And so it's almost like anything goes too far can kinda get off the rails a little bit.

Zack Carter: 10:18

Well, and that's that's leading us right into the next category. So thanks for getting us there. So that that second category now. So we started with weak men. So those are the sheep.

Zack Carter: 10:26

We then have strong men. These are the wolves. Yep. Right? So now we've moved from being weak, and now we're more we're stronger.

Zack Carter: 10:33

We're more assertive. We're willing to take risks. But the strong men can misuse their power. They can act in ways that are self serving. They may not have guiding principles.

Zack Carter: 10:46

Right? So this is the bad the bad boy archetype. Mhmm. And so a lot of weak men will look at the bad boy and say, like, I don't get what these women seen in him. Don't they get that he's, you know, dangerous or mean or whatever?

Zack Carter: 10:59

And if if you're if you're the woman, if you have a choice between a sheep and a wolf, well, if you could be part of the wolf pack, yeah, he might be vicious to others, but maybe he'll protect me. Right? And so women and and men are gonna choose that strong man, the strong man, even if he's not virtuous over the weak man any day. Right? So this is why we're drawn to characters like Han Solo at the beginning of a new hope.

Zack Carter: 11:27

Yeah. Right? You know, contrary to George Lucas's more recent edit, Han fired first. So if you if you're a big Star Wars fan out there, you know what I mean? So the original cut, the original edit of the Star Wars movie, Han Solo's in the bar.

Zack Carter: 11:45

He gets a guy that's dangerous across from him. He begins to see it's escalating, and so Han shoots the guy before he can shoot him. But then later on, George Lucas edited the other way around so he was protecting himself. No. That's not that's no.

Zack Carter: 11:58

The Han Solo character arc is much better with him firing first because it means over time, he grew out of that that wolf. It would eventually become the sheep the sheepdog at the begin at the end of the movie. Right? So we see this in revenge movies. So as much as we love John Wick, John Wick's a wolf.

Zack Carter: 12:18

John John Wick isn't the sheepdog. Right? He uses his power for revenge. Characters like Scarface, and it's every Disney villain ever. Right?

Zack Carter: 12:30

Those are the strong men. The ones that are using their power to hold others down. Right? So Mark, what what do these men look like that come to you that might be the strong men, that second category? And what do

Mark Odland: 12:43

you typically do to help them improve their lives? Man, that is a that is a really good question. I mean, I think some of these guys, they have they have the bad boy thing going. They they have the strength. Like, they might have the physical strength.

Mark Odland: 13:01

They might have the toughness. They might, even be doing really well in their job in the business world because that's a kind of cutthroat environment that is a that is a competition for some guys. Some guys love the thrill of that and kind of the battle. I mean, there's whole theories about how we've kind of displaced actual war and taken war into the the business realm. But, I think a lot of these guys are are struggling with, addictive behaviors.

Mark Odland: 13:30

That's that's one pattern I've noticed. A lot of these guys are feeling a little lost. You know they maybe they are a little hedonistic, maybe they are actually you know going after pursuing pleasure but the thing that is missing is that that compass, that north star. And a lot of times when they come to me they they know I specialize in men. I know they the same for you Zach.

Mark Odland: 13:56

They specialize in men but sometimes you know kind of in the bio they're like oh he does this faith based counseling thing too. I'm not sure about that but I guess I'm intrigued and they find their way to us and, part of me thinks, okay, god. You're doing something here. You're actually bringing a guy here, and, know, we're not we're not preachy or heavy handed with that stuff. But if guys wanna go there, we explore that with them.

Mark Odland: 14:18

We explore virtue, principle, faith. What is your purpose? What is your North Star? What is like the operating system that gives this whole pursuit meaning? Right?

Mark Odland: 14:30

And so I I see sometimes that that strength, it is not balanced with weakness. Like, I'm not trying to make them more weak. I'm trying to help them channel that in the in the proper direction, if that makes sense.

Zack Carter: 14:42

Yeah. That's that's a really good point. It's it's not that we wanna take you from a wolf and make you a sheep. It's we wanna take you from a wolf and make you a sheep dog. Like that's the direction we're trying to help you with.

Zack Carter: 14:52

The main thing I see with guys is being a wolf in their home. Right? Because I think I think one, I think there, I think you can see because I talked to guys and I think there's like a spectrum and it depends on the different areas of their life. So maybe in their work, they're the they're the sheepdog, but maybe in their home, they're the wolf. Right?

Zack Carter: 15:13

Or maybe in their in in their work, they're the sheepdog and in their home, they're the sheep. Right? So like, I can see how this can actually show show up in different areas and you might be different based on the area you're in. And I've seen a lot of guys that they're the wolves in their home. Right?

Zack Carter: 15:31

So they're not protecting the family. Right? Everybody's walking around eggshells. Dad's angry. We gotta be careful.

Zack Carter: 15:37

We gotta make sure we do everything right because dad's going to lose it on us or my husband's going to lose it on me. And so I, that's how I see it showing up with my clients oftentimes. And then, so what do we do? So it's, Hey, how do we engage in healthy confrontation? Right?

Zack Carter: 15:51

Don't go become the sheep, right? Become the sheep dog. So yes, you engage in confrontation. Sheepdogs are willing to engage in confrontation, but they're gentle with the sheep and with their family. Their owners, right?

Zack Carter: 16:06

So we want you to be aggressive to those that'll harm your family and to those that want to hurt you or the people you love. But you need to be soft and cuddly to those in the house, right? Like the sheepdog, right? So that's usually what I'm teaching them is like, how do we engage in healthy confrontation? Let's, let's not be weak, but let's be strong and loving.

Zack Carter: 16:29

Right? And so that kind of leads us to that third category level three. So that's the virtuous men. Okay. So that's the sheepdog.

Zack Carter: 16:38

So we're already kind of talking about it a little bit. So this is the highest level of masculinity, right? When you're able to pick and choose when to be dangerous and when to be safe. Like you're not just run by your emotions or by your internal desires. Right?

Zack Carter: 16:55

You have control over yourself. Right? So what does this look like? So you, you've any Western movie ever, right? You've got the, like the lone gunman that comes in and he goes into the bar and one of the strong men, one of the bad guys like steps on issue or spits on him or puts out their cigarette in his drink.

Zack Carter: 17:17

Right. And usually what you notice from that guy is he doesn't respond initially. Like he usually like lets the first one go. He turns the other cheek. Right.

Zack Carter: 17:26

But when those men do it again, then he attacks. Right. He defends himself. He's like, all right, no, we're not doing this anymore. Right.

Zack Carter: 17:35

So he's he's in control of his emotions. He's in control of his actions. So the the virtuous man possesses strength, but uses it responsibly. Right? He practices that self control.

Zack Carter: 17:46

Usually in the western, he's like saving the town that's being overrun by the strong men that are that are the wolves. Right? He comes in and gets rid of the wolves. Right? He prioritizes the community and prioritize prioritizes long term good over his short term self interest.

Zack Carter: 18:04

Wow. Right?

Mark Odland: 18:05

Yeah. I love I love that, Zach. That's yeah. I I love westerns. I I think it's it's right.

Mark Odland: 18:11

I'm I'm trying to imagine. Would I ever put out a cigarette in someone's drink? I don't think so. But maybe when we do our brainstorming session sometime for the podcast, you know, we could experiment with that. And

Zack Carter: 18:21

We should.

Mark Odland: 18:22

Yeah. Just just for kicks. Just we could record it, make it a little short

Zack Carter: 18:25

of it. Just pick the biggest guy in the bar and do it too. Like, just see what happens. No.

Mark Odland: 18:29

I know. I was thinking

Zack Carter: 18:30

about doing it to you. Oh, perfect. Oh, great.

Mark Odland: 18:32

Yeah. And then you can flip out on me. Right. No. But yeah.

Mark Odland: 18:39

I think, yeah. I think it's such a powerful metaphor, you know, with with the the sheep, the wolf, and the sheepdog. And and it really resonated when you when you talked about how you can almost see yourself as one in one context, but then feel like another in another context. And what strikes me is part of being that sheepdog is not just the mentality of I need to be a protector of the family, but also be tender when I'm with them. Mhmm.

Mark Odland: 19:10

But here's the thing, and this may be another podcast, but this is my challenge to myself and to the guys listening out there is we have to build the skills too. We have to build actual skills to learn how to defend ourselves physically. We and our families, we have to build the actual skills to know how to defend the hearts of our family, to care for their emotions, to be able to have strong relationships right so I mean knowledge is power and so if something's clicking right now for a guy and you're like oh man like I think of myself as a tough guy and I could protect my family physically but am I protecting their hearts Mhmm. Right? Maybe not.

Mark Odland: 19:49

Maybe not. And and this isn't about, you know, judging or shaming you guys, but it's like, think as men, that's part of why guys listen to us, Zach, is, we can have humor. We can have compassion. We can also try to speak truth and and try to bring some challenge and accountability as well. Myself included.

Mark Odland: 20:05

Right?

Zack Carter: 20:07

Yeah. It's definitely something we're we're all working on. And so what are some examples in media that we can go to and say like, okay, well, what what are the typical sheepdogs? Right? And so if you look at Aragorn in the Lord of the Rings Mhmm.

Zack Carter: 20:24

Like, that's a tough dude. Like, he's beheading orcs, like, pretty awesome. At the same time, he's like really gentle with his wife slash girlfriend, whatever she is. He's like really kind to the hobbits, to the people around him. But he also stands up for what's right.

Zack Carter: 20:41

Like he's a tough dude, but he knows how to flip that switch on, Hey, I need to be gentle with these people versus I need to be like strong with these people. Right? So I think that's a really good, obviously if we were in Sunday school, Jesus is always the right answer. So you could say Jesus as well is gonna be the steep dog, right? So he's both gentle with women and children, but also kicks over some tables and his buddies carry around swords.

Zack Carter: 21:05

Like, you know, he he was a tough dude. He's carrying around a cross that's really heavy. Right? He was a carpenter, worked with his hands. So Mhmm.

Zack Carter: 21:12

You know, Neo in the matrix, Luke Skywalker, Maverick from Top Gun Maverick or Top Gun. Like, these are all guys that eventually become those those sheepdogs. So Wow. Let me ask you, Mark. Can a man become a virtuous man without some form of suffering or sacrifice?

Zack Carter: 21:30

Oh, wow.

Mark Odland: 21:34

I mean, it's it's hard to imagine that. I mean, it's it's really hard for me to imagine that because the truth is, I mean, maybe there's some hypothetical utopia where that could be the case. But in this real world that we live in and through a from that theological lens, we we call it we live in a fallen world. Right? A world that's not the way that god intended it.

Mark Odland: 21:59

A a world that's kind of broken where things don't work right, where things decay, they get injured, they die, where there can be destruction. And so in that world that we've been placed, to build virtue, means doing things that are hard and and suffering. And there's there's different levels to that too. Right? There's tragedy that we would never wish upon anyone or ourselves.

Mark Odland: 22:27

But on the other side of that, there can be a strength that's gained, a resiliency, a virtue that's gained through that. I mean that's one of I think, the most meaningful prayers to me in times I've gone through suffering is to say, God, let not please don't let this be wasted suffering. Like, use this to shape me, to mold me, to refine me, to strengthen me. Right? And you that's big stuff.

Mark Odland: 22:54

And then you got little stuff. Right? Like little little challenges. Right? Things things I don't wanna do.

Mark Odland: 23:00

Like, after my sauna at the YMCA, like, I take the nice relaxing, warm shower or do I blast the cold and, like, just, like, shock my system? You know? You started with, Chris Kyle. Right? So, like, man, you you guys know out there.

Mark Odland: 23:16

You know, I listen to Jocca Willink quite a bit and admire some of that Navy Seal mindset. Well, few years ago, my wife and I were in San Diego. I'm like, this is where Jocca literally has his MMA gym. Victory MMA. I've gotta be a guest.

Mark Odland: 23:33

I've gotta jump in on one of the jujitsu classes. And, so it was pretty cool. I didn't see Jocko there, although he was in the neighborhood. I talked to his business partner, and they're they're in mental health stuff, which is kinda crazy. They got, like, mental health clinics.

Mark Odland: 23:45

There's just other side stuff they're doing. But, so I trained in my first no gi class. For those who do jiu jitsu, you know, there's gi. You wear the, like, the karate uniform kinda deal, and there's no gi, which is like a a rash guard and shorts. Never done no gi, but I jump into this class.

Mark Odland: 24:00

And they're just like I look around. It looks like train killers. Like, they're just all tatted up, like, jacked guys. And but it was actually a great experience. And I'm like, oh, this is going pretty good.

Mark Odland: 24:13

I'm holding my own. And then at the end, the black belt who's in charge of leading the class, he's like, come here. Let's roll. Let's roll. And at a certain point, he said, you're being too safe.

Mark Odland: 24:27

You gotta you gotta attack. Just gotta gotta go for it. I'm like, oh, man. I kinda feel like I'm, going into the lion's den. Mhmm.

Mark Odland: 24:34

Which ended up being prophetic given this is lion counseling podcast, man. This is pretty cool. And his he looked me in the eye, he's like, well, how are you how are you are you supposed to become a lion if you're not willing to go into the lion's den? Like, oh, alright. Here we go.

Mark Odland: 24:51

So I'm I'm not saying that to, like I'm not saying I'm the bravest guy. I I mean, I I had a lot of adrenaline. I had my fears. There's times I chicken out with things. Mhmm.

Mark Odland: 25:00

But I think there are moments in our life where we can choose, oh, do I take the step forward, face the adversity, maybe get a little tougher, maybe build a little strength, a little character, a little virtue, or do I retreat? Do I play it safe? And I feel like it's a constant battle for me, and I imagine for a lot of guys listening.

Zack Carter: 25:19

Oh, for sure, man. There's nothing more terrifying than rolling with a black belt. You you just sense that this person could kill me at any mo they're just playing with me.

Mark Odland: 25:29

Oh,

Zack Carter: 25:29

yeah. Like, they're just they're just playing with me. You hope that you hope the guy's a sheepdog and not a wolf, for sure. You're like, I hope this guy's a sheepdog because this guy could murder me right now.

Mark Odland: 25:38

And thank and thank god in, I mean, in the jiu jitsu communities, most of the black belts are true sheepdogs. I mean Yeah.

Zack Carter: 25:44

They've already crushed they've crushed

Mark Odland: 25:46

their egos so long ago that they have nothing to prove, and and they just have the silent strength of knowing, oh, yeah. I could totally kill this guy if I wanted to.

Zack Carter: 25:53

But It's terrifying. You can sense it. Like, when you're rolling with them, you can sense it. You're like, this guy could kill me. Yeah.

Zack Carter: 25:59

It's crazy. If no one's

Mark Odland: 26:00

done it, try jujitsu guys. Try jujitsu. It's it's it's terrifying and awesome.

Zack Carter: 26:05

Terrifying and awesome. That's great. Yeah. Well, so we've kinda laid out the principles. We've laid out the three levels.

Zack Carter: 26:12

Mhmm. How do we start moving from that sheep to that sheepdog or from that wolf to that sheep dog?

Mark Odland: 26:17

Like what

Zack Carter: 26:17

do we do? And we've made a lot of references to movies and literature. And I think it's really important to do that because art reflects life. And I think that's the best way to teach these examples. And so when I was in film school, we talked about the four types of conflict.

Zack Carter: 26:36

We have man versus himself. We've got man versus man, man versus society, and man versus nature. Okay. Those are the four conflicts and they reflect life. Like these are the kind of conflicts that we have in our daily lives.

Zack Carter: 26:50

And you mentioned Jordan Peterson earlier, and I think Jordan Peterson really nailed it because he understands the stuff deeply that he talks about cleaning your room. Why does he talk about cleaning your room? Because the point of that chapter in that book is that yourself is the easiest thing to control. It is not easy to control, but you're gonna have more likelihood to be successful with yourself than you are against other men against society or against nature. Right?

Zack Carter: 27:17

And so I think that's why that that principle spoke to so many people that like, dude, you got to fix your own crap first before you go out and you try to change the world or you try to change others, you got to fix yourself. Right? Yeah. And so yet another thing I learned in school was something called the hero's journey. Right?

Zack Carter: 27:38

And so as we talk about, okay, so how do I actually go from a sheep to that sheep dog? How do I go from being weak to being virtuous? The hero's journey, which is in like all the great movies, most of the great movies, most of the great books, it incorporates that hero's journey. So what is that? Okay.

Zack Carter: 27:58

So you you depart. The departure is the first step. Right? So the hero leaves the ordinary world or his regular world to face the unknown. Right?

Zack Carter: 28:06

So that's it's a call to adventure. Right? You have to leave comfort.

Mark Odland: 28:10

Yeah.

Zack Carter: 28:12

He then refuses the call. Okay. So this is in all the movies. Every single movie you watch, I just watched this very mediocre Ben Affleck movie. I think it's called like the way home or something.

Zack Carter: 28:24

And, you know, he's asked to be a coach for this basketball team, and, of course, he refuses. Right? I don't wanna do it. And then through a series of things that happen, he ends up doing it. Right?

Zack Carter: 28:32

But you see it in the Lord of the Rings. We've mentioned that. Right? So you or the Hobbit. Right?

Zack Carter: 28:37

And Bilbo is asked to go on this adventure. He's like, no. Life is comfortable. I like staying in the Shire. Right?

Zack Carter: 28:42

So you see this everywhere. Right?

Mark Odland: 28:44

Yeah.

Zack Carter: 28:44

So we refuse. So take comfort if you're out

Mark Odland: 28:47

there

Zack Carter: 28:47

listening that you probably have refused your call like we all do. Right? That's why it's embedded in this journey. Right? He then meets a mentor to receive guidance.

Zack Carter: 28:59

Right? So we've got Gandalf. Right? In The Matrix, we've got Morpheus. Right?

Zack Carter: 29:06

So you you'll see mentors rising up in in all these movies to help help the hero get wisdom, get training, get guidance. Right? It's, you know, Rocky and Creed. He comes and helps Creed. He becomes the mentor.

Zack Carter: 29:21

Like, you just see it everywhere. Right?

Mark Odland: 29:22

Yeah.

Zack Carter: 29:22

And so once he has his mentor, he crosses the threshold. He commits to the journey. Right? So he faces challenges. So that's what the that's what the training montage is.

Zack Carter: 29:33

Right? You you go and you train that every dude gets hyped when he sees like boxing montage. You're like, this is awesome. Look at those push ups and pull ups or whatever. Right?

Mark Odland: 29:41

Oh,

Zack Carter: 29:41

yeah. And he then surrounds himself with allies. Right? So he doesn't go alone. Like even in the westerns that we talk about, usually they have people that come up and help them.

Zack Carter: 29:52

Right? And so I get clients that are like, how do I do this by myself? You don't need to do it by yourself.

Mark Odland: 29:58

Right.

Zack Carter: 29:58

Right. You gather allies, right? And so they're tested, their enemies show up. They go through the ordeal, the life or death confrontation, and then they're rewarded. Right?

Zack Carter: 30:09

They gain the prize, the knowledge, the power. Jordan Peterson says the gold from the dragon. Yeah. Right? Yeah.

Zack Carter: 30:14

And then they return with the things that they've learned to their home. Right? They bring back the goal. They bring back the knowledge. Right.

Zack Carter: 30:24

And what's interesting about that is even in like the 12 step program, that's what the twelfth step is. That as you work on yourself for 11 steps, you get to the twelfth step and now you use those principles to help others. Right? So those are, those are literally the steps. Right?

Zack Carter: 30:41

So if you're out there and you're saying like, okay, what do I do to move from a sheep to a sheep dog? Just to begin, you acknowledge the calling, you acknowledge the adventure you're being called to, the job that you want to do, the degree you're looking to pursue, the woman you're looking to ask out. So you acknowledge it. Right? You can find mentors that help you through it.

Zack Carter: 31:05

That's what me and Mark are. Right? We're therapists. We help people walk through. Right?

Zack Carter: 31:10

Or you find people in your life. You find pastors or you find guys like Jordan Peterson on YouTube. Or whoever you listen to, right? You find a mentor. Then you find allies around you.

Zack Carter: 31:20

There were times where I was with my buddies. Was like, that girl's kind of cute. They're like, bro, you've got to go ask her out. You've got to go do it. Like you kind of need that.

Zack Carter: 31:27

You kind of need like the people around you like, bro, go do it, man. Go take the step. Go do the hard thing. Right? And you train and you take your first steps.

Zack Carter: 31:36

Right? So whatever it is you're doing, those those are your beginning steps. Right? Acknowledge what you need to do. Find someone that can help you that's ahead of you in life in some way.

Zack Carter: 31:46

Find your allies. Work hard like we've talked about, and, like, begin moving forward. Begin moving towards the thing that you're trying to do. Any last thoughts, Mark?

Mark Odland: 31:57

That's that's that's powerful, powerful advice, Zach. I think, it's hopeful. It's reality. I think we all need to look in the mirror. And and that and that's the paradox of it all.

Mark Odland: 32:10

Right? Is and we talk about this at Lion Counseling. Right? A different metaphor, but it's like God created us to be great. He created us to be, to have a calling, to have a purpose, to to be those lions that he created us to be.

Mark Odland: 32:22

But it's it's this thing where it's like it's our destiny. It's written into our soul, but it's hard to live out. And so in one sense, we already are that because God sees us that way. And this other sense, we're always becoming. We're always striving.

Mark Odland: 32:37

We're trying to live into that calling of kind of who we were actually meant to be. And so that becomes a dynamic tension. It's like, on one hand, it's like, man, I have to be more of who I'm created to be. It's it's an extension of who I already am. But then there's this other practical side that's like, actually, no.

Mark Odland: 32:55

Like, I like to do my selfish, comfortable thing most of the time, and I'm kinda not that guy. And as comfortable as it is, life has to be more. There's gotta be more than this. And so there's that stirring inside. And that's why people found Jordan Peterson.

Mark Odland: 33:10

That's why people, call us up to get that free consult to see, like, man, could could Zach or or Mark help me on this journey to to to be that hero that I wanna be, you know, in my life for my family. And so, yeah, I would just say if you're listening out there and and you you do feel that stirring inside, we're we're here to help. You know, we always offer that free consultation. So feel free to to hit us up. We'd be happy to talk with you guys, see see if it's a good fit, give you guys some resources, and put a plan together that's catered specifically for you.

Mark Odland: 33:43

Right? And, man, if you guys are still listening at this point, you guys might be noticed about YouTube algorithm, but a lot of people listen for, like, a little bit, and then they drop off. And then if there's someone who really resonates with the content, they they listen most of the way through. And so if you're that far and you like this content, if you don't mind subscribing, we it really means a lot to us. We appreciate it.

Mark Odland: 34:07

It helps make sure that you get more content like this and actually helps reach other guys. So, hit that subscribe button and throw in a comment too. You know, where do you see yourself? Are you do you have some sheep qualities coming out that you don't like? Are you are you already a firmly established sheepdog that's just rocking it?

Mark Odland: 34:25

Or are you in flux like most of us? You know, we're we're we're somewhere in between. We're trying to be be that better version of ourselves, but but, yeah, throw in some comments. We still read them all. We still talk, you know, join the conversation, and and, let's keep it going, guys.

Mark Odland: 34:40

Until next time. Thanks, Zach.

Zack Carter: 34:42

Alright. Thanks, everybody.

Mark Odland: 34:43

Alright. Take care. Bye.