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Pilot to Pilot is the podcast for anyone who flies — or dreams about it. Host Justin Siems sits down with airline captains, bush pilots, CFIs, and everyone in between for honest conversations about the path to the cockpit, the grind of the career, and the love of flying that keeps us coming back. Whether you're a student pilot chasing your first solo or a captain with 20,000 hours, there's a seat for you here. New episodes weekly.
Episode three sixty three of the Pilot the Pilot Podcast takes off now. Did you know that eleven percent of accidents happen while taxiing? A Vemco insurance company believes education and awareness make a real difference, which is why they support safety programs and reward pilots who stay sharp. Pilot Pilot Podcast listeners can save 5%. Call (888) 635-4297 or visit ofemco.com slash 4297 dash owner for aircraft owners and visit ofemco.com/ 4297 non owner for non owners today.
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Speaker 2:Hey. I'm Rob Scratch Mitchell. I'm a fighter pilot turned filmmaker and airshow pilot now.
Speaker 1:Hey, V Nation. What is going on? And welcome back to the Pilot to Pilot Podcast. My name is Justin Siems, and I am your host. Today's episode is with Scratch Mitchell.
Speaker 1:Scratch has a, a history of aviators as his grandpa flew spitfires in Europe during World War two. His father flew jets in the seventies and the eighties, and Scratch wanted to follow suit. He's a former f eighteen airshow demonstration pilot, former snowbird team leader, and he is currently filmmaker, actor, producer. He's doing some really cool stuff. Aviation, this is an awesome episode.
Speaker 1:We talk about leadership. We talk about just doing cool things and flying awesome stuff. So what more could you want in a podcast? I hope you enjoy this podcast. And if you do, check out the magazine, pilot the pilot h q dot com slash magazine.
Speaker 1:Follow us on Instagram. And you know how I always say, go take your dad's phone, your friend's phone, go and let him follow the pilot pilot the pilot podcast and download the last podcast. You never know. Maybe they'll wanna go fly too. But, Aviation, I hope you're having a great day.
Speaker 1:Without any further ado, you're Scratch Mitchell. Scratch, what's going on? Welcome to the Pilot the Pilot Podcast.
Speaker 2:Hey. Thanks. Nice to meet you and, well, in virtual anyway.
Speaker 1:I know. Right? Maybe we'll meet one day in person, right, at an air show or or who knows, maybe at a film, as you mentioned, a filmmaker, producer, some cool things to talk about today.
Speaker 2:Yes. Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Well, the first thing I always kind of get into is why aviation? What was it about flying that got you involved?
Speaker 2:Well, guess I came by it somewhat naturally in the sense that my grandfather was a Spitfire pilot in World War two and my dad was a Cold War pilot flying jets in the Royal Canadian Air Force as well. And so I grew up with it hearing grandpa talk and seeing my dad fly. So it was already planted while I was very young, the the desire and the passion to fly airplanes and jets in particular.
Speaker 1:Was the kind of the mission or kind of the dream to do exactly what they did or was it I just want to fly, I don't know what route I want to go on, but know I just want to fly.
Speaker 2:No. I was very deliberate. I wanted to be a fighter pilot. That was my main goal. I wanted to be a fighter pilot.
Speaker 2:And I sort of in the back of my mind went, you know, I'd love to be a snowboard pilot someday as well. But I I didn't think I would be able to do both necessarily.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I was just lucky that I was able to.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I mean, it's an American based show. Right? So I've talked to a lot of American pilots, but I don't really think I've had someone on. I mean, I'm saying this now, there's been like 365 episodes.
Speaker 1:Maybe I have, but maybe I've forgotten. But tell me the process of going from zero to wanting to be in the military, becoming a fighter pilot. Just kinda give me how that what that looks like and how you made that happen.
Speaker 2:Well, for me, I like a lot of young men, they kind of push back against their fathers and their teens and I my dad was like, hey, you thinking of joining the air force, the Royal Canadian Air Force? And I went, I don't know about that. I'm gonna I'm gonna run off to university college and and see what what's out there for me. And it didn't take me long before I was in my first year of studies where I went, you know what? I actually want to fly jets.
Speaker 2:And and then I went to other recruiting center. And then that started a whole chain of events, right? Writing papers and doing tests and flew me to Toronto at the time to do aircrew selection and it's a barrage over a week of tests and needles in you and scanning your brains and hearts and everything else. And so, you know, it was one of these things, you go to this step, you pass that step, you move on to the next step. And then in my case, I was waiting for my degree to finish.
Speaker 2:I was I did all the tests and I thought well perhaps I'll just do my last two years of university and then join. But I got a call two weeks before university started for my third year and they said, we have a slot right now. You've got it? You've got to answer by the end of today. And I'm like, okay.
Speaker 2:So I I ended up finishing my degree in the air force but and then, you know, then the the journey begins within the air force. And I was a lucky guy because I got ahead just ahead of this wave of backlog of training and so I went bang bang bang through the training. I was flying jets at you know, 22 years old. It was fantastic.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Now, this might be a dumb question, but is there the equivalent of the Air Force Academy or the Naval Academy or West Point in Canada? Is there a way that you can go to an academy like that and enter the air force?
Speaker 2:There is. In fact, at the time I joined, there were two. There was a and they're they're combined military colleges. There's an army navy and air force. We have sort of a combined service up here.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And so there were two options to do that. But because I had already done a couple years of university, I wasn't eligible to go that route or I would have had to start over, which I wanted to do that.
Speaker 1:Hard pass. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Hard pass. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I just went in and I did it through civilian university part time on the side Yeah. Over the next five years.
Speaker 1:Now everyone kind of talks about military training, know, it's it's very different than civilian, at least it can be. It's a lot of, you know, you gotta grab that hose and you gotta hold on. Right? It's like drinking from a fire hose. It's you're just holding on to the back of the plane hoping one day you'll be able to catch up.
Speaker 1:Was that the same scenario that you can that that you went through when you're training or would you say that, you know, you just keep learning every day and you make it work?
Speaker 2:It it a little bit of both, I guess. And in my case, I didn't really know about flying before despite the fact I came from an aviation family, grandfather, father. I took three or four flying lessons before I joined. I kinda like, man, you know, I've gone down this path. I wonder if I'm even gonna be in an airplane.
Speaker 2:And so I I had an idea that I would be good because I was, you know, I was pretty good in sports and, you know, I I was good in sailboats and things and motion sickness. So I I thought well, know physically I should be able to do it and if you know the brain and the body link up and I can fly an airplane, great. So I took a few lessons just to make sure that you know, I could even operate an airplane. Yeah. And that seemed to go okay, but you know the military training, it's it's similar all over the world in that sense that you you have to get on that program because they don't have a lot of bandwidth just to keep giving you extra rides if you're having a problem.
Speaker 2:So I saw a lot of my friends fall aside, through that journey because they just got a couple bad days in a row and then boom, they were gone because they you're on a path. And unlike in the civilian training that I've seen, if you're just not getting something, you just keep adding missions. You know, you keep paying, if you will. And so yeah. And in my day, we we had like a 50% attrition rate.
Speaker 2:It was pretty steep.
Speaker 1:You know, looking back, can you see any differences in how you prepared for flights? How you prepared versus what they did? Or is it just a matter of fact, if you know, you have one bad day and you just kinda let it spiral, right? Like you you can never recover.
Speaker 2:Well, think in my case, know, was I was lucky that things made sense to me. I was able to conceptualize what I was reading and what I was chair flying into the airplane. I think some people struggled with that a little bit more. And then, you know, the truth of it is not everyone just gets on the program as well as others. It's you know, there is a learning curve that some people have and I was one of the lucky ones that it seemed to work out for me.
Speaker 2:Again, it was a bit of a risk because I didn't take a lot of flying training before I went in and a lot of guys had to ensure that they were going to do well. That didn't guarantee their success, but at least they they knew what they knew going in. Whereas I kind of went and like I hope I can learn this stuff. But in truth, there was I would say most of the people, it was obvious they were there was a sort of a trend of their struggle early on and it just got worse and worse. And then when they had a couple bad days, they were gone.
Speaker 2:But I would say there was the odd person that just had a bad week. And they just got into their head and they got behind the power curve and then next thing you know, they were out. I think there were probably a few guys, in my case, there weren't a lot of women going through what I went through. But a couple of the guys that probably could have done well, but just had a bad week or so. And, you know, would have been the exception to see some one fall through the cracks that otherwise would have made it, but I sure there
Speaker 1:were a couple. I mean, we all remember it's like being eighteen, twenty two. Right? It's hard to kinda like buckle down and and one accept like, hey. Alright.
Speaker 1:That was bad. I gotta put that behind me. You know? A lot of times something happens, you're like, shoot. You're kinda stooping it for a little bit.
Speaker 1:But it's as simple like it's hard, it sounds simple now, but it's as simple as like, alright, that flight's over with, I just need to do the best I can on this next flight. Like I just gotta let it go and I gotta learn from it, fix the mistake and go.
Speaker 2:Yeah. There is a a mindset to it. I had a very focused looking back on it now, you kind of like, man, could I even do that again? Particularly the fighter training. But I was very focused.
Speaker 2:There was nothing I thought about other than flying jets and learning to fly jets. And so I think that's the, you know, the beauty of youth is you can focus on that. I had no distractions, no family, no kids, no anything. And it was all just eat, breathe, sleep, aviation. It was wonderful.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You were pretty much living Top Gun, just the Canadian version. Right?
Speaker 2:Right. That's right. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Was there kind of a moment that you still remember that you I mean, I played football in college and I do talk about this a lot. But the reason I bring it up is I still have recurring nightmares about like missing a meeting. I still like I wake up in full sweat and it's like I missed a workout and now I'm getting punished. Do you have any kind of recurring, not necessarily nightmares, but just like memories or something that really sticks out about your time training for air force?
Speaker 2:There's some once in a while, you know, when I get stressed, there there are a couple things that do pop up here. You're absolutely right. That feeling unprepared or I've forgotten my my briefcase or something with all my pubs in it and I'm supposed to go do an instrument flight like for training because that was you know, the ironically the real complex formation, formation flying everything. That all seemed to come fairly well for come easily for me. But it was the instrument stuff that I was really worried about.
Speaker 2:It it worked out, I did well in instrument training but I was the most stressed about it. And so even now, like I I I have dreams where I've forgotten my instrument pubs. Now they're all digital but in the day you only have to have your your handbook with them all. Right?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Scratch, where's your stuff? I don't know. I'm sorry. I'll run and go get it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Wake up in a full sweat, heart. I feel like you're having a heart attack. Yeah. Oh, man.
Speaker 1:Those dreams are great.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So, you know, coming from the mentality or coming from the background of you didn't really fly too much before this, I feel like a lot of people kind of stress about, you know, this person already has a private, this person has an instrument, this person has a commercial. Do you have the mindset where it really doesn't matter what you have because they're gonna train you they want the way that they want to train you? Or do you think it is beneficial to have that experience going into it?
Speaker 2:I I would say in my day, it didn't matter because they were really focused in on stripping you down, building you up. And we had a lot of commercial pilots that didn't make it through the the program. I would say nowadays, certainly in the Royal Canadian Air Force, having a PPL or even a commercial helps you because the focus on the training has changed a lot. And I think for the better in our day, it was very much a vetting process. And they were looking for reasons to get rid of you at first.
Speaker 2:And it was maybe an extension out of the old Commonwealth system that extended from World War two, the British Commonwealth Air Training Program, where they're really trying to put the pressure on early on. And nowadays, because a lot of the flying is less tactical and fighter oriented and a lot of it's procedural oriented, people that come in with commercial license that understand modern GPS navigation and that they seem to be better positioned to go through the program. And it it and if you go to certain flying colleges, civilian flying colleges, that even affords you to jump ahead in some of the phases. So I think it is beneficial now. I don't think it was in my day in the in the nineties.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It seems like the more and more I talk to to fighter pilots or military pilots, I get the sense now that it's lot like the military does not want you to wash out. The military has invested in you, they want you to succeed. And this goes to airlines too. It's like when you get hired, they last thing they wanna do is send you home.
Speaker 1:Because they have money invested to you, they have the slot already, they have all this training and they don't want you to go anywhere. So Yeah. I wonder if that mentality has kinda entered the military as well and kinda changed that aspect.
Speaker 2:It seems to have because I I follow loosely with, what's going on. Indeed, my son who's in college right now, he's considering a career in the air force and and so I've been keeping my ear to the ground to what's going on, the trends and recruiting and success rates and what we hear.
Speaker 1:Are you ringing up old buddies right now? Be like, hey, dude. Can you help
Speaker 2:my I've the fourth generation inbound. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. We're coming. We're coming. Yeah. I do think it's funny when I talk to my friends and everyone has this, right?
Speaker 1:When you enter anything, you have this like trauma bond, right? Like you go through this with your people and you're always friends forever just because you always have this thing you can fall back on that you went through. But now that in the spot that you're at, like everyone's kinda graduated up, right? Like some people might be commanders, some people might be way higher up, but at the time you would have never imagined that they would ever. It's like they're really gonna trust this guy to be a general or be in charge stuff.
Speaker 1:It's like crazy. But when you were younger, can you see those traits in those people? Like do those people usually stick out or do you think that, you know, you are young. You you learn throughout the years and you can overcome any mistakes you make and reach the top echelon of military or success.
Speaker 2:I I think it's a little bit of both and not to be dismissive of the the question, but I I it's not surprising that when we went through boot camp and pilot training that some of the strongest leaders when we were all 19, 20 years old achieved higher rank and more success in the air force. I think there is it goes back to this argument, are leaders born or made? I really believe it's a function of both, but what I would say is there's some natural traits and qualities and life experiences that people come into the air force with that will allow them to succeed faster. And I think you can make and the militaries and the air force is very good at making leaders. I think if you have certain personality traits and experiences in a in a a way of thinking that is different than others, that is a difference of making good leaders or great leaders.
Speaker 2:I think if you come with the it factor already, you can be a great leader. And so it's a it's a function of both.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. I think they put you in positions to kinda see what you will do. Right? Like, obviously, some people are born like, you're born different.
Speaker 1:Right? Like some people have it, you know, like some people are are Steph Curry, right? They can make a three from anywhere on the court or whatever it may be. Shohei Itani, they can hit like crazy. And some people need a little bit of work.
Speaker 1:They need the they need someone to kinda coach them up to get there. But, they'll put you in the situations and the positions and you either do it or you don't. Right? Like they give you the chances and it either comes out and you do it or, you know, you don't and you find an you kind of find the ranking order of where you're gonna stack up. But yeah, I agree with you.
Speaker 1:I think you can be born with it but it's up to your situation to see how you respond and to see if you actually take action. Because it it's tough to take action, right? Like it's fight or flight, like what are you gonna do?
Speaker 2:Yep. I agree. And I saw some great people become great leaders. And
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And you know, even myself had that inflection point at my twenty years. I was a a lieutenant colonel, imminently promoted to colonel and going to take the one of the the wings, base commander type thing. And it was a real tough decision to stay in or get out because I saw some of my peers carrying on and, you know, there's a there's a flattery and an ego to going on to being a flag officer, a general, and maybe making a difference. But it's, you know, it's one of these things. You just and I never thought I'd make a pass lieutenant.
Speaker 2:Right? In the first day, the guys are, you know, we all make dumb mistakes when we're young and in jets. And and then you find yourself at the leading the the snowbirds, but, you know, like, how'd that happen? But I was very flattered and but it was a tough call to leave the air force because I I left with a big smile and with the promise of, you know, going on as a general. Right?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So let's talk about the progression. Right? So we talked about, you know, the initial training things are going really well. Was there ever a moment where you're like, overwhelmed, this is too much, I can't do this?
Speaker 1:Or was it all kind of just like, you know, this is what I wanna do, I'm gonna make it happen?
Speaker 2:You know, it was the latter. I I actually I don't know where it came from within me. I just overwhelmingly knew I was going to succeed at the at Pilot training. And I knew that the only way to assure or ensure that I would get a fighter slot would be number one. And so I worked really hard to top my class in my case.
Speaker 1:So number one and then that gave you the ability to choose whatever options you had, the first choice. Right?
Speaker 2:Yep. And that was it. The the number two pilot could be sent somewhere else, whatever the air forces needs were. And so I worked really hard and I wasn't I wasn't the smartest guy in the group. You know, the hands and feet stuff came fairly well to me.
Speaker 2:There was definitely better book smart guys who did better in the academics. And I worked harder than some in aerodynamics. I did mostly arts in in in university. And so I had to work really hard to keep my academics up to the highest level as well. Probably worked harder than some guys in that in that capacity.
Speaker 2:But the net sum was, you know, I was lucky I was able to finish top of my class and get my choice.
Speaker 1:What were the choices I presented for you? Because there's always a chance to like, hey, know, you're just gonna be flying the heavies. You're not even gonna get to fly this. But what choices did you have?
Speaker 2:Well, I guess the, you know, my naivete in in my day was I just put fighter fighter fighter. And it was like it was all or nothing for me. I'd I'd you know, thinking back, you know, at the time we had t 30 threes, which is ironic because that's what I'm flying in the air show circuit and movie work now. And I and I knew that even if you had received a t 33 slot, you would likely go would get a fighter eventually if you did well on the t 33. And we had some challenger jets, like EW airplanes and sort of keeping in that jet world.
Speaker 2:But you're right. The the in the mid nineties, the the the proportion of cockpits was changing to mostly helicopters and multi engine and less and less jet. So there was a chance that if you were number two or three, you could you could go fly Hercules or something that you may not have wanted initially. Know, I think a lot of it's cool now, but at the time I was pretty focused.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. And then, you know, the drop comes and you're able to choose the plane that you want to choose and you get the plane you want, right?
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And then, what what looks like what what does it look like from there? Was it a continued just like, alright, let's go. Let's do this. I wanna be the best I can possibly be.
Speaker 2:Yes. Well, it's, you know, getting your military wings is like a big relief. You're like, whew. And then you have to rise up again because fighter training in in my case anyways was even harder. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. It was next level, the intensity. And and again, still in our day, we went on to f fives to learn basic fighter training. And there was still a you know, they they wanted you to pass, but there was still a pretty big set of hurdles to make it through to be a fighter pilot. And it was it was fascinating because I was going through fighter training at the end of the cold war.
Speaker 2:So that that tail of the cold war into the mid nineties because we were still flying really low level and it was high risk flying and they were very careful about who they selected and so the vetting process was still pretty tough then because if you couldn't manage, you know, dropping live bombs flying at 250 feet at 520 knots, 540 knots, you know, with bad guys hunting you down and you you know, you're missing the ground and you're able to get your bombs on target on time, you were out of the program. You know, nowadays, there's not a lot of low level flying and so that sort of focus on those aspects and those skills may may have changed. I don't I'm not saying that fighter pilots now are, you know, any less qualified or what have you, but the focus is certainly different. And again, that lingering philosophy of, you know, vet the weak rather than, you know, train them was still in there. And so the pressure was on.
Speaker 2:I probably felt more pressure going through fighter pilot training than basic wings training.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And yeah. For in my case.
Speaker 1:It hard to turn it off? Was it hard to like, you know, switch off the brain? Like have a personal life? Was it hard to to focus on other things other than this big goal that you had?
Speaker 2:It was because there definitely, you know, there's a host of failed relationships that come out of fighter training. Yeah. Because and and you know, how can a partner compete with young guy and gals now going through fighter training that that's all they consume and think about. And it certainly was our case. We were all effectively single.
Speaker 2:No one married on our course in in fighter training. You know, we all had partners, girlfriends, and and we were, you know, pretty focused. But that was definitely secondary to, you know, the bond, the group, the mission, the the passing of the courses. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I'm sure you guys are all friends today, like we said, the trauma bonding. Right?
Speaker 2:Oh, yes. Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Alright. So fighter pilot training or fighter pilot, you're doing it. It's going well.
Speaker 1:You're continuing to progress. What's coming next in your in your military career?
Speaker 2:Well then, once you're done, you know, the f five training, basic fighter training and then onto the training unit, the f 18, where you learn just how to operate the f 18 and so you graduate there, you are now at, you know, a fighter f eighteen fighter pilot and then you go on to your squadron, and then there's still a host of of training months where you we call combat readiness training. So you have to learn certain aspects. So in our case, we had NOR head duties in Canada, so we you have to learn how to hold the queue with the quick response. So we would have to go learn how to do all those NORAD profiles, and then you get signed off on that. And then you have to get signed off on the certain ranges that, in my case, out in Bagotville or in Quebec, you know, you have to get qualified there and they have to get qualified in different air to air, tanking airplanes, is maybe there's time.
Speaker 2:I'll tell you the story how I got my call sign. But and and so this is, you know, there's still the training never stops and you you know this very much in aviation training never stops. But in the fighter pilot training, there is never a time where you're like, oh, I've made it. I'm just gonna coast for a little while. And I had to manage that because there are periods I would say even reflecting back on myself where I did do that where I was like, ugh.
Speaker 2:I'm just so done flying or or training, and then I just wanna coast for a bit. But then, no, you gotta get back into, you know, your your flight lead upgrade program, and then you have to do this next stage and then your force ship upgrade program. So there's always intensity. Yeah. Which is good because we people like me, I I think we feed on that.
Speaker 2:But it's like you say, when you come up for air once in while, realize you've been, you know, the the wheels have been turning pretty hard.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I I can see both sides are right. It's like, we don't want you to get complacent. Right? We want to continue we want you to continue to learn.
Speaker 1:There's always something you can learn, there's always something you can do, but at the same time it's like, alright, I have to say, I'm like, I've done a lot training. Like, can I just do this for a little bit? Like, give me like a week before I go in somewhere else. Let me fly
Speaker 2:around in
Speaker 1:circles For real.
Speaker 2:With the jet.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Please. I just wanna fly. When you're talking about all this training and I and I have some buddies in the military and you know, when I was growing up, like you always think of like going out on a mission, you always think about being deployed. I always think of it as like, oh my gosh, it's awful.
Speaker 1:Like, you're you're having to go do that. You're away from your family, which it is, I'm sure still. But my all my friends are like, I finally get to do the work I've been training for. They're like kind of stoked for it. I don't know if that's like a pilot thing versus like someone that's just doing something else.
Speaker 1:They're they're more excited to be kind of flying their mission rather than training all the time. Not saying they're not training there too, but they're excited that they get to do the work that they've been training for for the last certain years. Would you say that's the same for you?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Absolutely. And so there's a a little bit of a, you know, being a firefighter and never getting called to a fire. You'd you'd Mhmm. Sort of want that.
Speaker 2:Right? Secretly or or maybe not so secretly. And and I I do remember the first big exercise we went to in my first year of Cope Thunder up in Alaska and and it was, you know, all branches of the United States military and it was different nations up there, know, hundreds of jets on the ramp. It was fantastic, know, and it felt real and it felt intense. And then, you know, on the heels of that, went over to do some NATO work in Europe and, you know, that was just like, oh, that's what why we do all this.
Speaker 2:It was really intense and and new and different accents on radios and integrating in different packages and it it just it took you out of that bubble of training and you know, when we're just working with each other back home and and it felt real.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Did you prefer one or the other? Like, would you rather, hey, I'm gonna go to Europe and go fly out there, go hang out there? Or it's like I mean, I guess like was there any big differences or anything you preferred either working with the United States Air Force or say someone in Europe or NATO or anyone?
Speaker 2:Well, I think it was when we said NATO, The US was always involved and as a big part of NATO presence in Europe anyway. So there was always that element, but I I would think, I would say pretty good certainty that I love the multinational integration. Like, I just love being in the planning room and and while we're all trained to a NATO standard interoperable and what have you, there's subtle approaches to things that were really fascinating. And even amongst The US forces, it was different working with the the marine f eighteen guys than it was working with the navy f eighteen guys. There was a different way of approaching things.
Speaker 2:And likewise, with the The United States Air Force, there was a different way of approaching things and yet again with National Guard. And so there was these subcultures and and ways of approaching a problem and integrating that was from the outside to the the sort of the uninitiated, it might seem all the same as jets and people flying off doing things. Yeah. But the the nuances were very tacit at the same time.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And it's interesting too because you when you're kind of entering, you know, your military career, you said the Cold War was going on, kind of winding down. And then the mission kind of has started changing, and you notice that when you're flying. Did that affect kind of how your career went or how you thought your career was gonna go? Because obviously you enter in the Cold War, you probably think the Cold War is gonna continue for longer than it did.
Speaker 1:And then Cold War ends, then now, you know, it's kinda uncertain. What are we training for? What are we doing this? What who are we focusing on? Or did you I guess I'm saying is, was your military career different than what you thought it was gonna be when you first entered due to extenuating circumstances with the global politics or whatever else was going on?
Speaker 2:Yes. I joined thinking I was going to fly f eighteens in Germany with a Canadian detachment over there. We had a permanent base in Germany and I that's what I wanted to go do, fly around Germany and and Canadian jets. And that quickly ended while I was in pilot training. But then not shortly after sort of all the the dust was settling from the fall of the wall, we started seeing all these disparate nations and all these micro conflicts coming up, Former Yugoslavia and all this, and the Baltics started flaring up.
Speaker 2:And we I think we quickly realized that, you know, there wasn't well, the cold war was a pervasive and and daunting threat globally. It also created a a relative stability in in many ways. And so that with the fall of the wall, there was all these pop up instabilities around the world. And I think that's sort of presenting in the look that we have going on nowadays. It's sort of all extended from this.
Speaker 2:Right? And I think that everyone kind of went, well, you know, Cold War is over. Now we're just going to be peacekeepers. But I think it didn't take long before I think we realized that it's it was a more hostile potentially hostile time than even in the Cold War.
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Speaker 1:It all starts with getting the guide. Download your personal copy of the final approach retirement guide at allworthairline.com/justin. And you did mention that there is a reason people call you scratch. Do you wanna tell a story about that?
Speaker 2:We'll we'll take it back a few months into my Yeah. Gosh. It must have been my first few weeks or months on Squadron. So I was a test anglophone on a French Squadron. I had a level of bilingualism, but I you know, English was my first language, French definitely second, but they were trying to in integrate more English people into this one squadron in Quebec.
Speaker 2:And so myself and a buddy, we went to the squadron and there was a lot done in French, weather briefings and everything else in the morning. And there was a French exchange officer from the French Air Force who was doing one of my combat readiness training missions. And he asked me in French, have you ever done air to air refueling? I'm like, oui. Once in Hercules or on Hercules with the the big long basket.
Speaker 2:So we do the rest of the briefing in French, light the blowers, off we go. We go to the the air training airspace. I see this tanker in the distance. I look at it, I go, that doesn't actually look like a Hercules. I'm like and I thought to myself in that moment I went, what are the chances tanking on that is different than what I learned on?
Speaker 2:Turns out it's a pretty good difference. So I learned on this, you know, big soft long basket or long hose with soft basket in this particular airplane, the seven zero seven, had a really short basket with a really hard metallic basket that you had to be dead center and the technique was entirely different. And it went horribly wrong for me and I scratched the canopy up and down, left and Oh, no. And and I I remember coming back after the mission and in my broken French telling the ground crew like, you should be able to buff it out. And it was it was a total write off.
Speaker 2:In fact, they were they said I was lucky I was I didn't lose my head because the whole thing ought to have banana peeled. So who knows? But either way, I ended up that Friday at at beer call at the naming ceremony as scratch. So and I I kinda knew that I could live with it, so I kinda went with it. Right?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Because you can get some bad ones obviously.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You know, Scratch, like it's a good story. Right? You learn something, you didn't you probably didn't do it again. Right?
Speaker 1:But I mean, it is a good story.
Speaker 2:Although you talk about dreams, not so much dreams about it, but for probably a couple years whenever that airplane appeared, I was like, I could feel my heart rate going up. Ultimately, it was actually an easier airplane to tank on. You just had to know the right technique or use the right technique, but I that sort of sense memory of that disaster in my first time, I could feel my heart rate going every time I went to that dang thing.
Speaker 1:Like I've done this a ton of times. Why am I still nervous about this airplane? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's funny how that can live with you for a while and it gives it's always kind of in the back of your head be like, hey, you remember when you scratched and totally rode off an airplane? Yeah. Okay. Thank when they gave you the nickname, was it all smiles and laughs at that time or was it like, hey, no, we still are pretty upset we lost an airplane.
Speaker 2:Well, not the airplane, they lost the canopy.
Speaker 1:Oh, the canopy. Okay.
Speaker 2:That makes
Speaker 1:more sense. You know,
Speaker 2:that they just had to put a new canopy on which probably are not cheap. Yeah. The the guys on the squadron think it's funny because you're they're looking for something you've done dumb, right? But yeah, I'm sure the bean counters weren't happy. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Had to buy a new canopy.
Speaker 1:Right. Was this would you say one of the not worst as in like the worst sounding, but like, what where did this rank in the naming category? Like was there were there other ones that are like way more embarrassing like, oh my gosh, thank God I do that. Or was it kind of up there in the middle?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think it's somewhere in the middle. I think there's guys that have taken out full engines and banking and, you know, an engine that's millions of dollars. Yeah. I think canopies are hundreds of thousands, know.
Speaker 2:So certainly in that spectrum of cost, there's been there's been worse for sure. And and just even the the actual word scratch, you know, is livable. Some you know, there's there probably could have been worse Yeah. Terms they came up with, but they they went without one. So I I I've rolled with it.
Speaker 1:Do you have like a friend or anyone else that you know or maybe come in contact with that's like the most memorable call sign that you've heard?
Speaker 2:Not ones I can say publicly.
Speaker 1:That's a good answer in itself right there. Right?
Speaker 2:There's a couple that and that that whole culture has changed as well and maybe for better. I I'm not But I think there is you know, we've gone through periods where things have become a little too sensitive obviously and and the sense of humor is lacking in some aspects of culture. But I would say overall, I think you can still be clever without being offensive. And so I think the, you know, the trend has been better and now that just forces people to I think be more clever than
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But some of them were arguably outrageous and gusting offensive in my day. You know, I cringe even thinking about this. At the time, you don't even think much about it, but No?
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's really funny. Just can you imagine just like, you know, going out to to Greece and introducing yourself. If you have like an offensive name, you're like, yeah, this is my name. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And they're like, what?
Speaker 2:Well, there were a couple like that. Right? Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh, it's really funny. Scratch in that case is is not bad at all. Scratch sounds great.
Speaker 2:Yeah. No. And it's it's it's funny because I I've actually when I left the air force to get into film and television, I I had this two sided card. I I actually have one right here. There one it was like, Scratch Mitchell, aviator.
Speaker 2:And on the other side it was Robert J Mitchell, film and television. And eventually all the directors, producers and people got to know my story and they just called me Scratch, I just went with it. The whole world, I go by Scratch now.
Speaker 1:I love it. I love it. Yeah. Yeah. Let's talk about snowbirds.
Speaker 1:How did the snowbirds kinda come into play?
Speaker 2:Well, that was interesting. Again, as a kid, I saw the snowbirds and that's part of the reason I wanted to be a pilot in the first place. It was you know, and I remember going in my first year university to Victoria, British Columbia to the Nair Show and I I just I'd forgotten how amazing the snowbirds the show was and I was like, woah. And so in the back of my mind, was always thinking about it. And you know, I was very focused on my tactical first squadron, then I went to instruct on the f eighteen.
Speaker 2:And while I was in the f eighteen unit instructing, I had the opportunity to do the demo pilot. So I was the solo f eighteen demo pilot for Canada for North America. And what an amazing experience. And so I put my name and I love the air show experience because I think one of the things I realized is there was always a bit of a performer in me. I I like that entertainment thing, you know, that a little bit of proclivity in me to demonstrate something as a fighter pilot.
Speaker 2:You never interact with public at all. You know, we do the odd school visit or what have your tour going through. But I really engaged with that and I felt something in me that I didn't know about or found something in me that I didn't know about. And so I put my name in for the snowbirds to sort of continue on that path in the airshow industry. And then, you know, there was a big trial process on, you know, in the fall after my f 18 solo demo act year.
Speaker 2:And I was fortunate to get selected as the outer left wing pilot number seven for the And then I did three years with them.
Speaker 1:What is getting selected in the training process look like after that?
Speaker 2:Well, the selection actually was pretty grueling. We had there were a lot of good candidates and and it was something I I described to people is unlike, you know, pilot training and even the fighter pilot training, there is a standard you're trying to compete with and you have to meet that standard. In snubber tryouts, you could have in our case, there were three spots, I think maybe there were eight or there were four spots actually, and there were eight shortlisted people brought in to do a fly off. So you could have eight really talented pilots, but only four of you will get selected. So you're competing with each other.
Speaker 2:And that was a a new dynamic that I had not experienced in the air force because you were just competing against the standard. And so it was and you bond, like you talk about the trauma bond or going through tryouts because they they made it quite difficult. And and you build yourself up because the desire to make the team is quite high and you you talk about playing sports. You know what it's like to on Yeah. When it's, you know, cut day and you're you really want it.
Speaker 2:And so you bond with the guys, but you know looking around the room, half of you are going home at that at the end of those weeks of tryouts. And so it was a really interesting experience in that regard and the the self pressure, I think, put on ourselves or myself to make it was, was a lot.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Was it hard for you to get out of mentality, like you mentioned, where you're competing it's a standard, but now I'm like competing it's for other people. Was that difficult to kind of swap like the competitive nature in you? It's like, oh, wow, this guy's doing really good. Gotta I gotta step it up.
Speaker 1:Or was it just staying in your own lane and just continuing like you did in your training before, just focus on yourself and just do the best that you can do.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And in my way, I was like, you know, you secretly hope everyone makes it, but you know they all won't, but I'm just gonna focus on what I need to
Speaker 1:do. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And and so I wasn't thinking of competing against them as a person, I just was competing for a spot. And I knew that I just if I can do the best I can do, that maybe I'll shine and I'll get picked for one of the spots. And in the competition to be number one in pilot training, I knew I wasn't if I was number one, it didn't mean somebody wasn't gonna make it. It was, you know, it was different in that regard because again, you're competing against the standard. In this case, you know, I make it, someone doesn't.
Speaker 2:And so that there is a little bit of a bummer factor about that.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, well, glad you made it. Congratulations. That's pretty cool. It's not everyone does it like you said.
Speaker 2:No. It was tremendous. Right? Yeah. And it's and I wanted it more than I thought once I got there.
Speaker 2:Like I I didn't do it on a whim. I knew I I wanted to do that, but once I got involved with the snowbirds, I I was like, yeah. This is where I belong in life.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Now when you say that, do you think it was because you're protecting kind of your emotions in case you didn't get it? Or you said you wanted it more than you thought?
Speaker 2:I don't know. Maybe. Yeah. Maybe. I think and because I was I was doing well in the air force and and I was a fighter guy because unlike the The US teams that are all fighter pilots, Canada, we were flying and flying the trainer aircraft.
Speaker 2:And so you could come from other communities as long as you had flown high performance, whether it was an instructor or t 33 or f fives or what have you. And you didn't necessarily have to fly fighters. And so the fighter guys that did go there, there was a lot of pressure to make it, I think, because of that that you're supposed to be like the top of the pile or whatever. Even though I didn't consider myself that way, I think there was more implied pressure for the fighter guys to make it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I can imagine. It's interesting you kinda mentioned like ego a little bit. Was it hard to keep an ego in I mean, for some, it's all different for people. Right?
Speaker 1:Like some people get so involved in in being who they are. But was it hard, you know, like I'm a fighter pilot, I'm a snowboard pilot. Was it hard to kind of did you have an ego about it or is it just like, this is awesome. Like I love this. This is so cool.
Speaker 2:I think it was more that and Yeah. You know, the irony is, I think people have the impression of fighter pilots, they see it from the movies and the the swagger and everything else. But the if you ever have had the chance or hang around the debrief from brief of fighter pilots or or airshow pilots, you realize it's quite humbling because it's we all had the advert or the little moniker egos and attitudes at the door, and you're all equal. And, you know, you could be leading your commanding officer one day, and he could be leading you the next. And so there's a a neutralization of rank and everything else once you get into the airplanes.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's whose mission lead. And so there's an interesting dynamic that comes in that and you might have to give a very stern debrief to your commanding officer who messed up the profile. And you don't do it, you know, you're not a dick about it, but you you have to be like, hey, this was our objective here. We didn't meet this objective.
Speaker 2:You go through good points, bad points, ways to improve. And you know, there's a way of delivering communication like everyone Yeah. Do. But you sometimes you you have to give some harsh love to, you know, somebody senior to you. And so ultimately, ego is not a big part of it.
Speaker 2:Ego is part of the game and the show, but it's not part of the core of being it. I think self confidence can be confused for ego. And I think that's saying there's a lot of self confidence, a lot of self assured a type personalities that are very motivated driven, goal oriented, results oriented people. And I think that could be misconstrued for for for ego when it's really just confidence.
Speaker 1:Yeah. No. I I I think athletes can kind of fall into that too. Right? Like, you have to believe in yourself, you have to be confident.
Speaker 1:Like, you're the only one you can count on in certain moments. Right? So Yeah. And you carry that confidence and you carry that into your everyday life. So Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's the way you carry yourself, you come off as kind of egotistical. But I mean, some people are do have a big ego, right? See sport. Without a doubt.
Speaker 2:But Every group has them, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Every group has them, that's for sure. Just can't escape it. But yeah, it's just You just carry yourself a little bit differently in certain times. Talk about the snowbirds a little bit more.
Speaker 1:What what does the schedule look like? What do those three years look like? I mean, your whole life has changed what you're training for, what you're doing and and everything you're doing. Right?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So it it and it's a different animal than, being a tactical fighter pilot. You are on display. You're you're on public watch. You're in public eye all the time.
Speaker 2:And so the the general flow is you train for approximately five months of the year and and then you go on the road for the rest of the year. So there are some years we were on the road for, gosh, seven seven months. Like, my first year, we did 95 displays. It was A lot. A lot because it's down in the fifties, sixties now.
Speaker 2:And that was almost burnout. That was a particularly big year, an ambitious year. But, you know, we would typically fly two missions every day, and then Tuesdays and Thursdays, we'd fly three missions. And it was go go go, and it was a brief and debrief cycle for every one of those missions. So some long days.
Speaker 2:And and we're in Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan where the team was based. And so you're you're walking in the jet at 35 below Celsius, minus 40, then they link up. Right? It's a minus minus 40. And it didn't matter.
Speaker 2:That was training. You know, it was only excessively high winds or overcasts that would stop us. And you it was a pretty grueling pace just the training. And you're doing something completely different. Even though I had, you know, thousands of hours flying jets at that point, I was not a a professional formation pilot.
Speaker 2:And so the whole team has to step back and do the building block approach where you start with this couple jets. You had a couple a couple two ships going out doing sequences, you know, getting into formation aerobatics, then you add another airplane. We're doubling up, you know, training partner to a new person and then you eventually are by yourself in the airplane. You build up, you know, five airplanes and then seven and then all nine. And so the the course of the winter, you know, you you don't get to the nine plane until much later in the season.
Speaker 2:And then we went to a spring training, which is out here in British Columbia on Vancouver Island, and you spend two or three weeks out there just working on the show twice a day refining it, increasing, you know, tightening the timings and the finesse, making it look pretty.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Just just making it look good. Right? You guys know what to do. It's just like you said, just fine tuning and making it look good.
Speaker 1:You mentioned the schedule. You mentioned how crazy the first year was. How how do you have a family with that? Like how do you have a personal life? I'm guessing that put some strain on your on your personal life.
Speaker 1:Right?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Does. I got married, you know, three weeks before tryouts and then I was like, yay. I'm gonna disappear for, you know, the next few years. And it is tough because it's also you know, it's an interesting dynamic because as pilots military pilots were hitting our stride and our our late twenties, early to mid thirties, you know, professionally where we're we've got a few thousand hours where we've reached, you know, we're starting to be senior in our in our disciplines as spider pots or now snowbird pilots.
Speaker 2:You're sort of in in your groove, you're in your flow. And that's also the time where families start being made. Mhmm. And you need to sort of what you not sort of, you have to be able to divide those. And some do it better than others and certainly looking back, there's things I could have done better.
Speaker 2:But you're so focused, particularly that first year, just the the magic of being a snowbird pilot and a air demonstration pilot traveling all over the world and everyone telling you how great you are, you get caught up in it and you sometimes let that family part slip.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So it's
Speaker 2:a it's a tough balance and and easier said than done for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You know, looking back on your your aviation career and kind of everything that you accomplished, right, like Snowbird Pilot, number one in your class, all that. Do you think was that fueled by, you know, just trying to be the best you can? Was it fueled by, you know, I wanna show my family how good I can do. Obviously, you had like I mean, there's obviously a little bit of pressure when you're a third generation or soon to be fourth generation with your son of either doing better than the previous generation or continuing, you know, the excellence that might have been laid before you.
Speaker 1:Was there kind of undue pressure from that? Or would you say that it was all pushed by yourself?
Speaker 2:I think it was mostly pushed by myself. I never really felt outside pressure. I just I've always been a very focused person when I commit to And I would say any pressure I put was on myself. And yeah, I think that's that and it's the pressure that you build up into its own thing too where I became like, well, this is what I'm doing. I have to do really well at it.
Speaker 2:And and, you know, I we have an expression, know, don't be ordinary. Right? And you have to be as good as you possibly can be, and you just can't let your guard down and and complacency set in. And I I had to check myself a couple times as a snowbird. I remember in my third year, I was I used to make the arrow through the heart, and it was sort of a relatively easy maneuver.
Speaker 2:You just had to do some timing. I got this actually loved it because I got to separate from the pack and look around a little bit, and now it's just the guy's taking the heart and that would but I caught myself halfway up the heart saying in my mind, lasagna. I really feel like lasagna. I haven't had one. I'm like, what are you thinking about, man?
Speaker 2:You focus on the job here. What do you do? Was starting to get a little complacent. I had to rein myself in because that's you know, you wouldn't even have thought about something like that in your first year and even your second year. But and and perhaps that's why typically military jet pilots or demo pilots don't do more than two, three years because you don't want to get into that complacency loop.
Speaker 1:I agree. In football, I had a couple coaches. One was coach Meyer. He's a great coach. Has coached a lot of champions, coached a lot of great people.
Speaker 1:But he always mentioned how hard it is to be great, but not only to be great, but like continually choose to be great every single day. And he he would always say like the great ones are few and far between. Like you think of the great ones, Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, whoever may be, like they are different the way they approach everything and every single day is about getting better. And Yep. That can be sports, that can be flying, that can be personal life, could be your training as a pilot, whatever it may be, whatever you're doing.
Speaker 1:But did you kind of under did you kind of come to realization of that as well? You know, you mentioned like the complacency like, I can't afford to be complacent. It's like I have to continue to be better, be great, there's always something to really learn and push myself to be the best that I can be.
Speaker 2:That that is true and and it's it's easy to say that and it's the culture that we we'd like to bring to the snowbirds and the fighter pilot community as well. And then it's a personal journey of how you manage yourself on that curve where you're challenging yourself all the time. And we're not, no one's perfect at it. And I felt myself get into slumps once in a while and have to pull myself out. Like, am I doing that?
Speaker 2:But, you know, there are certain things we would do as well. Every every practice, every performance, we would set team objectives and then everyone would have to go around the room and the briefing room and say what their personal objectives were and we'd hold ourselves to those measures and metric them afterwards. Like, nope, today I really want to tighten up. I don't want to be more than one second off my timing for the the heart or the arrow in the heart. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so that would you would hold yourself to that because maybe I've been letting that slip and I was coming in late a little bit and then it might affect somebody else. And so Yeah. We would always set a couple objectives and that was a way of keeping yourself in check I think as well. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, it's also interesting because like that's probably stuff I mean, obviously it can be noticeable from the ground if you're really really late. But when you're talking about like a second, half a second, the person on the ground watching the show might not realize that. But everyone in the airplane knows that. Like every single airplane is like, damn it, scratch. Like you did it again.
Speaker 1:So it's continuing to push yourself when it might not even be noticed by other people. Just the fact that you yourself know you can do better.
Speaker 2:Yep. Exactly. And and it was also interesting and, you know, maybe we're gonna go there, but so I came back as the team leader as well, for a couple years and I had to change that. Whereas there was lots of kinetic goals. You know, I I really wanna hang in there for the the five plane line of brass role.
Speaker 2:That was the most challenging maneuver as a wingman, as number seven. My case on the outside, we went from idle speed brakes to full power and you had about half a second to figure out when that transition would go or you'd be out of the formation. Really delicate stuff and so it was easy to make tangible goals for that as you're trying to get better and better at it. As the lead, I had to set little subtle things because it was about the flow and the energy management and it was about the leading style that I would have to set. On this one, I really wanna the way I settle in here, I wanna make sure I have an extra two knots today because of the density altitude or what have you.
Speaker 2:So it really changed sort of how I approach the show and my the the nuances and to keep me engaged, it had to be small little things again that nobody, not even some of guys on the team would recognize. But for me, I had to keep myself engaged by giving myself these little micro tasks every mission.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You're the conductor. Right? Like you're the one in charge. Right?
Speaker 1:And then everyone kind of feeds off your energy too, which I I feel like when you're when you are a lead, they're just like coming in every single day with the same energy, you know. Because if you start letting it down like, man, this is, you know, our seventy fifth show. Like we've been on the road for seven months. It's like, you gotta come and be like, let's go. We get to be a snowbird pilot.
Speaker 1:Let's have the best day we can possibly be. Right? Like it it's so difficult to to not come in with that energy, because everyone needs it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It it is. And that it, you said something that was very true at the team lives off your energy. Mhmm. And even though in my case, lot of these snobber guys were contemporaries of mine, they were effectively peers.
Speaker 2:We were all sort of the same age cohort, many of us. And in some ways, you know, different circumstances they could have been leading me. But you know, the way the military is is you're given that position and and guys are good at leadership and they're good at followership. That's a big part of military Absolutely. Life as well.
Speaker 2:Right? And by and large that works really well. And but they also adopt that role structurally and philosophically. And so to your point where if your energy was off, you could feel it in the guys. And and so you had to vibrate at a higher frequency than them just to keep that energy in the room.
Speaker 2:And you had to keep that focus and that level of optimism or what have you or get through some tough times because I had a couple or I had a tough situation. We had a fatal crash on my watch. Yeah. And that was a real challenge to bring the team through and balancing empathy with mission focus. And we've got to move on, but we have to do it in a thoughtful, empathetic way and bring the team back up into a place where they had that confidence and the mojo back.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, we'll talk about that in a second, but it's almost like you had to be an actor. Right? You're like, this position was a role that you were playing. Right?
Speaker 1:Like this is the energy you need, this is the person you need to be and you gotta come up and match that energy and do that every single day.
Speaker 2:Sure. And then to your point about the acting, because I've done a bunch of acting training and direct and I'm in the film world now, there's acting with authenticity and then there's just acting to pretend. And so there's nothing easier to sniff out than a lead or leader who's pretending and doesn't have that authenticity to their intention.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And so that was, you know, it goes beyond like, hey, I'm just gonna throw out some affirmational quotes here today and and clap my hands and jump up and down. If they don't feel it authentically that you're there, because you have to find it in you to be there. It can't be just words or actions, it has to be authentically energetic. And so that was that was also an epiphany for me that, you know, I couldn't you couldn't fake it as a lead.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, it's tough because I found that my the best leaders that I have seen in my life have been people that live by what they say. Right? And you're someone that's not gonna ask you to do something that they're not willing to do themselves. Because like how can I just come up here and and hoorah you and I'm not gonna step up to the occasion or or even wanna do what you're doing?
Speaker 1:Right? It's like you gotta know that this person's been through it, done it and has seen it and knows what to do to overcome it and keep going.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. Completely.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Let's talk a little bit about I mean, the way I was gonna phrase it was, what is your, you know, your best moment as a snowbird pilot and kinda like the worst moment. But you did mention the fatal accident. Do you do you wanna talk about it? Is this something you wanna Totally bring
Speaker 2:comfortable. It's Yeah. It's part of my story.
Speaker 1:Part
Speaker 2:of team's story. And I learned, I grew as a human, I grew as a leader. So it's a very very deeply personal. Yeah. I still feel emotion from it.
Speaker 2:But what I would say is it was the very first show. It was the most horrible thing you could have when we went I went from this honeymoon with the leading the snowbirds. Training went really well. Training camp went really well. We launched off to Malmstrom Air Force Base near Great Falls, Montana.
Speaker 2:We we were just setting up to do our practice before the the weekend show and boom. We had a fatal accident. Like day one out of the gates. It was awful. It it just the record scratch just went like Yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay. Fun and games are over. This is real. And you know, out of all that, you know, and not to be too dour, you know, I really felt I really found what a couple things, what leadership really meant and what it means. And I also found, you know, something in me that I was proud of.
Speaker 2:And I also and more so found what a team can be out of something so devastating and become strong and stronger in some cases out of it and the bonds that came from that. And it's it's trite to say that perhaps or it can be, but you know, having lived it, you can really say that, you know, to see a team come together after a fatal accident Mhmm. Is is a wonderful thing. Obviously, starting in horrible circumstances, but to see what the human spirit is capable of is But I will say, you know, at a personal level that that penny drop, the shoe drop, the penny or whatever, I cannot I mixed I mixed up my metaphors.
Speaker 1:They both work.
Speaker 2:Yeah. The you know, in this circumstance, and not to get into all the details because I don't think the details matter too much unless you really wanna go there, but there was a an engineering fault with the lap belt that Mhmm. Holds us into this ejection seat. And my number two pilot, Sean, he rolled upside down on my wing and the lap belt failed and it opened up and he fell against the canopy, lost control of the airplane, lost his life. Horrible.
Speaker 2:Horrifying for him Yeah. Fighting the airplane trying to get it back but couldn't. And you go you see your wing wing go down beside you and blow up. It's a horrifying thing to see. Likewise for all the other pilots because we're all split up into a different unit.
Speaker 2:So we had a I was with a four ship and then there was a two ship and another two ship, you know, and going on at the time. So it was quite visible and very violent. And and then in all of that, the calmness foremost of our training to be able to say, okay, everyone. Okay. You two go back first.
Speaker 2:Go land. Okay. We're gonna regroup and just get back. And let's ops normal. We'll find out what happened.
Speaker 2:Let's just go safely get the airplanes on the ground. And I sort of orchestrated that from the the lead cockpit. And you just have to default to that training and focus and the the skills you're pilots were were given, you know, to focus on the right things at the right time. But what I would say is, you know, I I think I mentioned a lot of these guys are my contemporaries. And I remember walking to the number five jet.
Speaker 2:So after we landed on any flight, we would meet at the middle of the group, the lineup of the airplanes, which typically was the number five jet. And we'd all there, all the ground crew, all the pilots would meet on one wing and we'd do a quick, alright, any safety points, any any things we need to do before we go talk to the crowd or we go get gas or what have you, we'd have called an overwing. And I said, ops normal, everyone meet me at the five jet. We're just gonna we're gonna talk about what's happened here and figure out what the next steps are. And of course, I was greeted by my jet by, you know, generals and all sorts of people involved in the air show and media was there.
Speaker 2:And I had to say, I need to go to my team right now. And I remember walking up to that wing, where they were all standing and all those sets of eyes looked at me and they all said the same thing in their eyes. What do we do now, boss? And that that's when it it struck me as like, that's leadership. You you have to be able to respond in the moment.
Speaker 2:That's part of leadership. It's a big part of leadership. It's one thing to lead a group of of equally motivated people down the path when you're all trying to do something amazing. But when something goes wrong, you have to be able to rise up and find it within you to be the leader and and lead the team. And that was a really important moment for me that kind of went, oh, that's it.
Speaker 2:And you know, it sort of harkens back to perhaps what I imagine my grandfather went through in combat. That you know, you lose a wingman, it's like what do you do? You come back and you you know, you move forward and you get a plan. Obviously, weren't going to fly the next day and it took, you know, several weeks to figure out what happened and and fly again. But you know, keeping that team engaged over the next few weeks and not going down a dark path Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And because you can create the boogeyman, right? What about this? What about that? You lose confidence in yourself, the airplane or whatever. And so that was a that was a a really interesting experience to be part of.
Speaker 2:I would never want to have done it given the choice obviously. Yeah. But I'm glad that if anything, a slight silver lining to it was it taught me about myself and humanity a bit more.
Speaker 1:Was you know how people talk about a bird to use an airplane? It's like the most famous one people think of is solely defending himself landing in the Hudson, just being like the startle effect. Right? Like, alright. Yeah, they made Teterboro, but hey, make them sit in their hands for ten, fifteen seconds and see what they do after that.
Speaker 1:And I bring that up because in that moment there had to have been a startle effect. Right? Like emotions are going crazy. You you you know what's You know what just happened. Right?
Speaker 1:Like you know the outcome. You know what's gonna happen when you get on the ground. How do you recognize the emotion, compartmentalize the emotion, and focus on making sure everyone else does the same? Because like you said, you're the leader, you're in charge of everyone. That's like And you know minds just start going.
Speaker 1:It's like, alright, boys, girls, whatever is up in the air play like, we gotta go, we gotta land, it's gonna ground, we'll deal with it. But talk about, you know, the startle effect. Was there anything you said to yourself to get yourself into it, to get yourself out of it, and how kind of the reaction was with the rest of the crew?
Speaker 2:Man, I remember being told early on as by I don't even know who that, you know, when you have an emergency take a big deep breath, because it there's a calming effect to oxygenates the brain because Mhmm. Fight or flight can actually squeeze off, you know, some people won't breathe initially and just gives you that executive function a little bit. There's a physical and probably a philosophical reason to to take a take a breath. Right? Take a deep breath.
Speaker 2:And I remember doing that and then I think the key for me was keep everything as normal as possible. Just don't make it up. And and that's what I was doing as a, you know, by saying, okay, you're naturally, you know, snubbering eight, nine, you're together setting up for a solo event, you guys go back first, you're the closest to the the field there. Okay. We have five, six and seven, need you guys to gather up together and do this.
Speaker 2:And it creating normalcy out of chaos, I think is what the the approach that, you know, I think we're taught. It wasn't something I I I made up that in the moment. We were taught to try to, you know, do that. But that that worked in our case there. Is you know, give people something to grab onto that they can relate to that is part of their normal operating process.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:When did you let the emotion actually come through and hit you? Was it, you know, when you got behind closed doors, finally got back to your room? Was it when your your team kinda got together maybe after that? But there's a moment where it's like, alright, the leader, I gotta keep myself composed. Right?
Speaker 1:Like I gotta try to maybe push the emotion down and and focus on the other people. Yep. And then eventually It was a long
Speaker 2:run the next morning. I I didn't even I had to do media things and I had to I had to be a strong voice. I think there's that balance between being empathetic and and not dismissing people's true emotion because there's a lot of emotions there. And and and at the same time being empathetic, but but strong in character at the moment. And that's not, you know in my case, it was just I I wasn't welling up with tears and crying in front of the group and and it wasn't trying not to do that.
Speaker 2:It was more just a I need to be focused and give them an anchor here. Mhmm. And then but they could see I was hurting as well, but only in my because they knew me so well. But they I was giving them a pillar to grab onto at the same time. And then in the privacy of my my own moments, that's when I I had my own time to myself.
Speaker 2:Right?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah. It's just something that it's just a reminder of what we do, right? Like I mean, every time you go up in the air, something like this could happen.
Speaker 1:I mean, we we've seen it recently with with Rob Holland, right? Like no one expected that to happen. But like anytime you go up, you never know. It's just the realism of what we do, being whether you're flying an airline, whether you're flying for fun, flying your family, just because of the show, take your training seriously and take everything seriously. Because you never know when you're gonna be called upon to to do something you just hope it's a situation that you have the ability to react, right?
Speaker 1:To Mhmm. Do something to change it. It's hard to transition outside of that conversation, right? It's hard to transition to anything else. I do wanna ask you a couple more questions and I know we're kinda coming up on time.
Speaker 1:But when you leave the military, we we kind of talked about it a little bit, but your whole life has been military and there's a lot of similarities to sports and I always go back to it because that's my personal background. But you know, your whole day is accounted for, right? Like, alright, I wake up, I show up here, I do this from nine to three, I eat my lunch, I do this from here to here, now I go home, now I do that. Alright, cool. Was it hard leaving that mentality?
Speaker 1:You know, was it hard leaving such a structured environment and now you retire and you wake up at 9AM or wake up at 6AM and you're you're just like, I don't know what I'm gonna do today. Like was that hard for you because you've come from such a long background of doing a very structured thing?
Speaker 2:I think aspects of it are were hard because there were there were always objectives and and things that you were gearing up to. There was like, know, I'll be posted in two years. I've got to work towards this to get the posting I want. So there were always this forecast things you had to do. And then there were things you had to do every week and and daily.
Speaker 2:And so to a degree, yes. But what I was also surprised in myself was I was far more comfortable in the abstract of entrepreneurial ship than I ever imagined. And I wouldn't say that I've been a master of it because sometimes I can get sort of spinning in the chaos a little bit of all that. But
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:At the same time, I think I was, you know, just as I surprised myself that I love public display and being an aerial demonstration pilot, I think so too. Was surprised to see that I really enjoyed the the risk of entrepreneurial ship and going into filmmaking in particular, which is a outrageous career to go into in terms of stability. Right? And and I I think I found and once in a while I find that I wish I'd had, you know you know, more markers of stability in in the career. And I think the challenge I've had, you know, jumping ahead to myself here with the filmmaking side of it is the biggest challenge in this is that in the military, in the air force, if you have the skills and you have the drive, you can achieve the next goal.
Speaker 2:And then you can apply, do the right training, do the right things, keep your skills up, keep your drive up, you can be promoted and go on to the next thing. And so there's a there's a linear progression to what you want to do and the sky's the limit to be trait if you have the skills and the desire and the and the motivation and and execution. In filmmaking, it doesn't matter if you're good or you're working hard, it may not work. And so there's that abstract and that unknown variable. They say you need two of the three skill, luck and perseverance.
Speaker 2:Perseverance is so far the the biggest marker of everything I've seen in entertainment film industry
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And maybe entrepreneurial ship in general. But the there's there's an element of luck and timing that a fighter pilot hates to admit that luck is part of something because we like to control our variables. And so I have to accept that there's variables I cannot control that can be very random that affect me positively or negatively. And you're just like, what the heck?
Speaker 1:I'm Yeah.
Speaker 2:I've invested in training and skills and you know, and yet this isn't working. Yeah. That's been the biggest change for me is that my whole MO of success has been thrown out a little bit where you have to accept there's variables you can't control directly.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Come from a very black and white background, right? Like you do this and then you get this. You do this and then you get this. Yep.
Speaker 1:Entrepreneur world, like, alright, you do everything right, but something could happen, you know. The the oil crisis if you're entrepreneur. And now my business isn't working because no one has extra money to buy this. Or my film just wasn't seen by the people or someone didn't wanna buy it or I didn't get the role because of politics. Right?
Speaker 1:Like politics are massive when it comes to stuff like that. And by politics, I don't mean like government politics. What do mean like internal politics?
Speaker 2:Internal, yeah, small people politics.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's like, well, they knew this person, that's that person's grandson, like all that kind of stuff. Right? Totally. So it has to be pretty difficult to come in.
Speaker 1:And it almost seem like not fair at a point, but just accepting that that's just how the world is. Right?
Speaker 2:Yep. It is. And it's that's been my biggest takeaway so far. And and the worst thing that can happen to a new filmmaker is, beginner's luck. And I won't call it that because I hate the term, but, you know, I I helped create a TV series called Air Show that's still playing on Amazon Prime down in
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:In The States for sure. And, you know, I partnered with a a proper producer at the time and, you know, nine months later we were filming the thing. Was like, this is easy. You just need a great idea and connect with the right people and we
Speaker 1:go Yeah.
Speaker 2:And then, you know, a couple years after that and you're trying to create a new show and there's like, nope. Doesn't work the same way. So it's it's been interesting. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely interesting. And you never know what idea is gonna hit or what's gonna go. And I think that goes to what you're saying the perseverance.
Speaker 1:Right? It's like, just keep going. Like don't stop and you can't stop because you never know when that's gonna hit. It's almost like that famous kind of meme where it's got the miner that's like chopping down the wall and the pot of gold is like just like an inch away and he's one more stroke away, but he walks away.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You just never know when that next big idea is gonna come and hit.
Speaker 2:And that's that's the analogy that keeps us all going. Right? Yeah. And it's but you know, I still through it all, notwithstanding this those random variables that we're thrown into, because I focus on aviation content and you know, I mixed my two worlds and two passions. I still apply that fighter pilot mentality.
Speaker 2:So when I'm directing on a set or I'm making my own shows, I still hold that what I've what was successful for me in the air force was, you know, you you plan, brief, execute, debrief, you know, that cycle. That that's been very good. Once, you know, something's in play that works really well. And then, you know, debriefing good points, bad points, ways to improve. I the crews I work with, I give that feedback and I challenge myself to that.
Speaker 2:And I unlike a lot of industries, talk about ego, film industry. Wonder about that. Right? It's outrageous the egos. And people don't take criticism well and so I you know, you try to lead from the front and you kinda go, here's what worked well for me today, here's what didn't go well for me today and here's what I'm gonna do to fix it.
Speaker 2:And you hold I hold myself accountable and then when I do debrief a crew or something, I say, hey, this is what I thought worked. This is, something that's, you know, I think we can work on, for the next, few shoots. And then here's a couple ideas, you know, for you to think about. So the guys and the crews that I've built over the past ten, twelve years, they come to really trust me because they know that I'm not criticizing them. I'm actually making them better and creating a bigger team.
Speaker 2:Or I like to think so. Right?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Absolutely. Some people don't want to be criticized. I've learned that in my life. It's like that's a learned skill of taking criticism and figuring out it's not an attack.
Speaker 1:Right? Like sometimes criticism is needed, it's warranted. Like you might have sucked and you need to hear it.
Speaker 2:Or Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Maybe someone just wants to just knows you can be better. And I think that's actually when it gets really difficult, is when you think you did a good job. And someone comes and like, hey dude, I think you can do more. Like I I believe this you can do better than this and this is what you did wrong. And Mhmm.
Speaker 1:So I think that's a very much a very important learned skill that you can take and that you will be more successful in any aspect of your life if you could take criticism well and apply it to your life.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I really I really believe that. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. We're kinda wrapping up here, but I do wanna ask two more questions. Is, know, now that you've kind of pivoted, transitioned, to a different career. Do you ever wish now like, I wish I would have done this at like 20, right? Like I wish I would have been an actor or filmmaker like from the get go.
Speaker 1:Or are you very happy the path that you went down for the experience that you had that will let you tell the story that you wanna tell now?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I wouldn't have changed a second. I think I wouldn't have been as competent or successful in film and television
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:If I hadn't been a fighter pilot first. I think that shaped who I really was and what I responded to and and how I you know, everything we talked about leadership and everything else. I think that needed to occur in my life before I could have done this. And it's given me a a gateway pass into the industry at a different level. I think, yeah, I could have perhaps started like everyone else at the big at the bottom and worked my way up, but being a fighter pilot and an expert in certain areas has afforded me an entry point somewhere up in the in the the ladder of the filmmaking entertainment world.
Speaker 2:And it's allowed me to grow from within there because I you know, there's lots of knowledge to learn. But I I don't I wouldn't have changed anything. I think, you know, it's not a coincidence that I combine aviation with filmmaking. I don't think I just want to make random films. I think it really is my love and passion of aviation.
Speaker 2:I was able to express it as a demonstration pilot and show people and effectively tell a story. And then the evolution of that was I wanna be able to tell a story on the big and small screens as well, not just the live screen of the air show environment. And so for me, it's still aviation storytelling, I'm just doing it in a different way. And so that evolution, you know, had to occur that way.
Speaker 1:And then the last thing I'll ask you. You know, you've you've done a lot to be successful. This doesn't have to be kind of taken towards or pointed towards someone in military or a pilot. But what are kind of like your three pillars of success when it comes from doing things well, being great, and just showing up and continuing to go after it?
Speaker 2:I think it it really does come down to figuring out what makes you tick. I think I was able to do that early that, you know, one of my success was focus. I was able to really focus and commit to something. I think that's one of the things early on that worked as a kid for me. I was always very focused, like I wasn't a sleep in teenager.
Speaker 2:I got up, wanted to do things. I was very focused. So I think with that focus, I was able to commit to being a good fighter pilot. And then I was able to through that, able to find out who I was outside of just flying jets and everything else. And I think through dead air demonstration, that's what I figured out that, hey, there's a there's a storyteller in me and I'm able to tell stories with airplanes in the sky.
Speaker 2:And I think that's what, was my second, key to success was that I got to know myself a little bit and what made me tick. And then reach into my tool bag of everything I had in my life, airplanes and interest in this and then come up with how I was going to go forward. And that included leading the snowbirds then getting into film and television.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Love it. Well, Scratch, I appreciate your time. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Think it was a great talk, right?
Speaker 1:I mean, I I love talking aviation. I love talking success, leadership, all that kind of stuff. So it it's really interesting and cool to see how it all can inter tie intertwine into a successful pilot career and it can also success in your own personal life and outside of flying, right? Whatever profession you may choose. So thanks for coming on, I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2:That's my pleasure. You know, I've always said this, aviation is an analog for life. There's a lot about aviation that you can apply to everything else in life and I I stick to that. And so to that, yeah, was a real pleasure, real honor, but
Speaker 1:That's a wrap on today's podcast. Thank you so much for listening. Scratch, what a great story. It was it was awesome to hear your perspective on things, and I'm really appreciative that you came on the podcast. Like I said earlier in the intro, check out the magazine.
Speaker 1:It's the best magazine you'll ever see. I hope you give it a chance. And if not, get your friend, go steal their cup, make them buy another one. Hey, nation. I hope you're having a great day.
Speaker 1:As always, happy flying. The Pilot to Pilot podcast is brought to you by Ground School from the finer points, the indispensable training app for new and experienced pilots. Visit learnthefinerpoints.com backslash Justin to save 10% off your first year.