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The Transform your Teaching podcast is a service of the Center for Teaching and Learning at Cedarville University in Cedarville, Ohio. Join Dr. Rob McDole and Dr. Jared Pyles as they seek to inspire higher education faculty to adopt innovative teaching and learning practices.
This is the Transform Your Teaching Podcast. The Transform Your Teaching Podcast is a service of the Center for Teaching and Learning at Cedarville University in Cedarville, Ohio.
Ryan:Hello, and welcome to this episode of Transform Your Teaching. In today's episode, Dr. Rob McDole and Dr. Jared Pyles continue our series on AI resilient course design by discussing objectives in the lab setting with Dr. Trent Rogers, the dean of the School of Biblical and Theological Studies and Cedarville Theological Seminary at Cedarville University.
Ryan:Thanks for joining us.
Jared:Rob, we are back here in our AI Resilience series. We are getting to the meat of the series. We've done enough introducing... We're we're doing a series of episodes where it's like, I would call it lecture and then lab. Yes.
Jared:We are lab. We are lecturing first on a certain part of backward design, AI resilient backward design.
Rob:Mhmm.
Jared:And then we're doing a lab session. We're lab in it.
Rob:We're lab in it with Dr. Rogers.
Jared:Dr. Trent Rogers.
Rob:Doctor Trent Rogers, sir, would you please introduce yourself? And thank you for joining us.
Trent Rogers:Well, I'm happy to be here. Obviously, I benefit from this podcast as do many others within the university and abroad. So I'm happy to talk about this new field of thinking through AI and course descriptions and course objectives.
Rob:Yeah. So today, we're gonna actually get in get in the lab and we're going to work on an objective that doctor Rogers has brought Yeah. With one of the courses that we're currently working on together. Yep. And then we're gonna see what we can do and have a conversation about making it AI resilient.
Rob:Sounds good?
Jared:I have to tell you, just a little bit of a backstory that
Rob:Okay.
Jared:I suggested that doctor Rogers... I am the ID assigned to this course with doctor Rogers.
Rob:Treats and advertising.
Jared:In the lead up to the sessions of us building this course together, you said, Doctor. Rogers, that you don't like making objectives. And so I thought, you know, it'd be a great idea to put him in a scenario where he has to actually make the objectives himself.
Rob:Thank you.
Trent Rogers:So two two qualifications to that. First, most people call me Trent. I'm well. So that's that's the first qualification. The second one is I said I don't usually make module level objectives.
Jared:Sure. Okay.
Trent Rogers:Course objectives and program objectives
Rob:He's good with
Trent Rogers:something that I travel in quite quite frequently.
Jared:Okay. It's just that you don't wanna
Rob:You didn't wanna make the module objectives.
Jared:Don't make the mod... That's fine. Well, today, we'll be talking about objectives with it, which then you could then apply if you wanted to, to module objectives. Now also truth in advertising, I've already written module objectives for your course, but I'm not going to share them with you. I want to see how well you can do at this.
Jared:So yeah, we're thankful that you're willing to come on and help us with that. The goal of this is to say, you know, here's what good objectives are. It's, it's your opportunity to throw questions at us or ideas at us, and we can give you feedback on it based on backward design and AI resilience. So what you got?
Trent Rogers:Okay. Probably the most natural course for us to discuss is, the course that we're currently working on developing. It's being developed in an online format with the idea that it will probably be taught residentially as well.
Rob:Gotcha. That sounds good.
Jared:So tell us about the course. What is it? What's the course description? All that stuff.
Trent Rogers:Yeah. It's important to say course description because when I think about course objectives, there's an interplay with the description and the objectives. So even as you think about our Bible minor courses, so Old Testament literature and New Testament literature, they have the same objectives. They are distinguished by their title and their course description. So I do look at the the...
Trent Rogers:What we deliver being an interplay between the title, the course description, and the objectives. So this particular course, exposition of a New Testament book is actually the capstone course for our BA in Biblical and Theological Studies that really was designed from the ground up to be delivered in the online setting. So a couple of things that were important in this was to think about them as in terms of four course sequence. So the whole program is built around a series of four course sequences. And the reason for that is because in the online setting, we're delivering two terms, you will, every semester, traditional semester.
Trent Rogers:So eight weeks, eight weeks, right, Christmas break, eight weeks, eight weeks, summer break, and then eight weeks, eight weeks, summer. So we designed the whole program to be delivered in those kinds of four course sequences. So I'll just run through a couple of them just to help us get our bearings. So if you think about the the courses that are in Old Testament, So there's an Old Testament sequence that begins with basically an introduction to biblical interpretation.
Rob:Okay.
Trent Rogers:And then we have three Old Testament courses. So law, prophets, and writings. Then we go into the next series of courses would be our our new testament courses, so you can think of NT one, two, and three, so gospels, and then Acts and Paul, and then later new testament writings in Revelation. And then the fourth course is biblical theology. So how do we how do we understand the Bible as a whole?
Trent Rogers:So we begin with understanding how to interpret it and with understanding the Bible as a whole. The whole program, like I said, is... Has those four core sequences and this exposition of a New Testament book is the culmination of a teaching sequence. So there's teaching ministry one, teaching ministry two, and then exposition of an old testament book and exposition of a new testament book. Okay.
Trent Rogers:So this is designed to be the culmination of that teaching sequence, but also it's a capstone for the whole program. And as exposition course, it has both a hermeneutics and interpretive component and also has this expressing expressing this biblical... These biblical ideas to your congregation. So it's kind of a two part thing. So we want them to interpret rightly and express rightly.
Jared:So based on that then, there's a lot that students come into the course already knowing how to do or have the ability to do.
Trent Rogers:That's right, there are stated prerequisites.
Jared:Right, so there's prerequisites that you don't have to necessarily worry about for students. You don't have to spend your time in the course assessing those things. The understanding that they've come this far, they have an understanding of it. Correct. So then you're looking at higher level stuff in this in this course.
Trent Rogers:Hopefully. Yes. And so even as you say that, I haven't I haven't reviewed my course objectives recently enough to think, did I did I hit the nail on the head? You know, I'm a little nervous. A little nervousness.
Trent Rogers:I'm going under the microscope here.
Jared:Well, that's the whole point of this.
Jared:This is the lab.
Rob:I mean... Yeah. But it's not necessarily our microscope. It's yours. You're the one that's turning it on yourself.
Rob:We're just here to
Jared:help. Yeah. It's your fault if they're bad. Yeah.
Rob:we're trying to say. Because we... I mean,
Trent Rogers:well, it's always always helpful to know where guilt lies.
Trent Rogers:Right? Right. Right. Right. Right.
Rob:It's going to be listening to what you want students to think, feel, or do, especially based on what you've already discussed with us in terms of that four course sequence, which is extremely helpful. So Yep. Start with that. Let's just start with one. What is, like, the major thing that pops into your head in terms of what this course a student should be able to?
Trent Rogers:Yeah. So I think teach the text effectively.
Jared:Okay.
Trent Rogers:Okay. So... But for us, when we think about teaching the text effectively, there are so many skills that are behind that. Yep. You can't teach the text effectively if you don't, understand the text.
Trent Rogers:You can't teach the text effectively if you don't understand your audience. So in... When I think about teaching the text, we're teaching the text and the way we've designed the course actually is to have both oral and written expressions of teaching. Okay. Because we're trying to prepare them for ministry settings in which you're gonna have to do both of those things.
Jared:Mhmm.
Rob:So it sounds like we're at teach the text orally and through written communication.
Jared:Right.
Rob:That would be the the the the thrust of it. So is there, like, a a specific... I mean, obviously, I'm think... I guess it could be a sermon. It could be, you know, a class series.
Trent Rogers:So part of what students are asked to do, they have to do verbal, oral communication in various forms and various links throughout the course. And one of the things we ask them to do is to define your your audience.
Rob:Okay.
Trent Rogers:So you might have a student that says, I I wanna teach this to youth group. And then we're gonna expect illustrations and applications that are appropriate to that versus if they're teaching it to the senior group, you know.
Rob:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. That's good.
Jared:What part of the of the delivery of the message, either oral or written, are you expecting them to have an understanding of... Like, are you looking... Are you a... I'm I'm kinda cheating because I know what what the answer is, but are are you assessing their ability to deliver to a specific audience or are you expecting them to just stick to... Like, example, if I know the text really well, but I don't communicate to my audience effectively, are you looking more for the delivery or are looking more for the content that they're delivering?
Jared:You know what I mean?
Trent Rogers:Yeah. We wanna train them in both. Right. Right? So we would not look at as a...
Trent Rogers:An effective delivery, something that's really craftily delivered, but is vacuous in its content. Right?
Jared:Yeah. Right.
Trent Rogers:Because we're handling the word of God. When when we think about the goals that we have in somebody communicating scripture
Rob:Mhmm.
Trent Rogers:Those goals go far beyond our ability to produce that in a person. Now because that's that's why prayer is so essential because we want God to act.
Jared:Sure.
Trent Rogers:We want God to shape somebody. But with that, we we want to communicate in compelling and clear ways Mhmm. So that people don't get lost in in our communication. So, you know, when I think about preaching in my local congregation, I'm mindful that people are distracted sometimes for really good reasons. So you've got parents who are who are trying to juggle kids that are climbing over them in the pews.
Trent Rogers:That's a good thing to be distracted by.
Jared:Sure.
Trent Rogers:And and I wanna have enough clarity that somebody like that can follow what I'm trying to say and can see it in the text Mhmm. So that they understand the content of the biblical text and then they're challenged to live
Jared:from that text. I know there's teaching ministry courses before this that I've helped Doctor. Kimball build. And I'm curious as to if... So they come into this course with an understanding of how to communicate effectively.
Jared:Correct. Okay. All right. So we don't have to necessarily spend time in Evaluating that. Evaluating.
Trent Rogers:Well, we do evaluate that though.
Jared:Sure. I know. But it's not brand new to them.
Trent Rogers:Not brand new. So, yeah, many of the assessments are rubrics and assessments we are borrowing from previous courses because we want it to build. Maybe let's start. Can I start with the description?
Rob:Go for it. Yeah.
Trent Rogers:Sure. Okay. So, you know, this is... I feel I feel like the lab right now, the guinea pig, you know, like... So, of course, it's...
Trent Rogers:You
Rob:are not, sir.
Trent Rogers:I'm not. Well... I am. A little.
Jared:I am judging.
Trent Rogers:That's helpful. Well...
Jared:No. No. I'm discerning.
Trent Rogers:Discerning. That's right. Discerning.
Trent Rogers:That's what I... So exposition of a New Testament book is the course title. So, again, that that defines our our our content. So a study of a New Testament book, which means then you could choose a different book in theory. So the one that we've developed is first John.
Rob:Yep.
Trent Rogers:Mhmm. Because I've written a couple commentaries on that, and I think it's it's also a very helpful book because it's gonna draw on a number of the interpretive things that they've been taught throughout the program. So a study of the New Testament book and how to teach it effectively in a contemporary setting. The course guides students in how to exegete the text faithfully and exposit it clearly. So it's kind of two skills.
Rob:Yes.
Trent Rogers:We're not giving them content and then saying just communicate it. We want them to develop that content and communicate it to a contemporary audience. And, of course, there's there's prerequisites embedded there as well. So here are the course objectives. So first one, interpret the biblical text using proper exegetical methods.
Trent Rogers:Now the way I develop course objectives, and I should say probably our school in general develops course objectives, They tend to be a little more paired down than some that I read. And we don't have multiple verbs typically in a given objective. Good. Typically, it's one verb. Preach.
Trent Rogers:And it's it's fairly straightforward. So interpret the biblical text using proper exegetical methods. Now there's a lot in that that's gonna be debatable. So the idea that there there are proper exegetical methods. So how do we define those?
Trent Rogers:Well, the program has defined those. Right? Remember that this is a part of of a sequence of courses. And we're recognizing that the biblical text does merit interpretation. So we, and again, that is what they've studied throughout the program.
Trent Rogers:So they ought to be able to demonstrate that skill in line with what they've developed throughout the program.
Rob:And you could you could nod to that. I mean, you could actually say that instead of saying, what'd you say, proper? Yeah. Proper exegetical methods. You could just say program defined exegetical methods.
Rob:Yep. I mean, because then that gives you a solid place to go back to, and it's it's not like oil. I wonder what his proverb. Yep. Yep.
Rob:And also to whoever comes behind you to teach it if it's not you.
Trent Rogers:Yeah. So when I think about this course, I think about it necessarily embedded in a program. Yeah. That's not always the case. Right.
Trent Rogers:That's not always how people think about courses and sometimes courses aren't designed exclusively to be embedded in a program.
Rob:Also true.
Trent Rogers:So, I mean, you think about an elective. A student has general electives to fill up their schedule. They might take a course, not thinking about how that course inhabits a position in a program. Right. So there's a danger in that.
Trent Rogers:Right? Right. So let me ask
Jared:you this. With this one specifically, interpreting the biblical text using proper exegetical methods, are they learning... I know you just said they come into the Course with the ability to do this already. Are they growing in that throughout this Course? Are you introducing new methods of interpretation that were in the previous course?
Trent Rogers:I don't think I would say I'm introducing new methods of interpretation.
Jared:Okay.
Trent Rogers:They are demonstrating that skill in a very fine way in a specific book.
Jared:So you're building on. Yeah. Okay. Gotcha. So I'm gonna say you didn't need this one, but I think you do need this one.
Jared:Yeah. Yeah. Because you're adding on to it.
Trent Rogers:Because for us, if if you don't if you if you don't interpret rightly, you're not going to be able to express rightly.
Jared:Sure. Makes sense. Would you say the interpret part comes before their ability to express?
Trent Rogers:A 100%, yes.
Jared:I have to look at this again to see, do you have mastery of this first objective before they go to express?
Trent Rogers:So the way that we've designed the course is basically each week is corresponding to a chapter of first John. So they're demonstrating a mastery of interpretation before their expression of that given chapter. Gotcha. So not not necessarily the book as a whole, but that chapter and then they express
Rob:it. So they're getting they're getting those options or they're getting that opportunity to do this prescribed methodology. It sounds like at least three times?
Trent Rogers:Well, five chapters of first John. So So to go through the entire... Okay. Alright. Ready for objective two?
Jared:Yeah. Yeah. Actually, let's go to the third one since I tease it already. Let's just do that, then we'll come back to the second one.
Trent Rogers:Oh, okay.
Jared:Since I said express.
Rob:You did.
Jared:I I don't wanna.
Trent Rogers:So, you know, I'm not sure if express is the right right word here. Teach might be the right term, but anyway, express the author's intended textual meaning in a contemporary setting. Now that that... That's pretty loaded. Right?
Trent Rogers:So Yeah. When we say express, what what I'm trying to get at is the oral and written communication. Right? So we're trying to have somebody communicate or express the author's intended meaning. So intended textual meaning.
Trent Rogers:So...
Rob:I think you could say that.
Trent Rogers:So why do we say author's intended meaning? Because the question is not, how do I feel when I read this text? The question is, what did what did God intend to say? What did God intend to say in the text here, the textual meaning? So it's not...
Trent Rogers:We don't want somebody to to construct the meaning from what is behind the text. Even if that be a real historical setting. We want them to say, this is the text itself and this is how God has chosen to communicate and I wanna listen to that. And we want them to express that in a contemporary setting. Now we don't specify the the particular setting because we want a student to be equipped to do a devotional setting or or, you know, for some of our students preaching to a to a gathered congregation.
Trent Rogers:And then some of those assignments, we allow them to define their setting.
Jared:So you said it, if you didn't like express, you could use communicate. Communicate? Yep. Communicate the author's intent in textual media in contemporary settings. It's the same idea.
Jared:Communication is sometimes... The the verb communicate is sometimes easier to measure than express. Like, express seems a bit vague.
Rob:My only, like, pushback would be you said it. You said oral and written, and I I don't think there's anything wrong with giving that level of detail. Mhmm. Because that's exactly what you're trying to do.
Trent Rogers:We we do try to we try to circumscribe this in some ways by saying author's intended textual meaning. Yeah. So it's what the author has said. So we're locating meaning with the author. Yeah.
Trent Rogers:Right? And and it's intended, not whatever I can conjure up. And then textual, what is actually in the text, not behind the text or adjacent to or something else.
Jared:So if I were to add one thing, I'd be express the author's intended textual meaning through written and oral communication in a contemporary setting. Let's just add another prepositional phrase onto this.
Trent Rogers:So you're fine with express?
Jared:Yeah. Because you're... Not really, but... Yeah.
Rob:But but you could be fine... Express is fine once you define it through oral and written. Adding that oral and written gives you the narrowness that you need.
Trent Rogers:Yeah. Yeah. I I
Jared:would say deliver to it. Deliver the author's intent to textual...
Rob:Communicate express. Because you're saying oral and written, I would I would argue that you have the boundaries that you you specifically told us. Because we're just sitting here listening to what Yep. You're intending.
Trent Rogers:My intended textual meeting?
Rob:That's right. So... Oh, okay. I'm listening to the audience.
Jared:I'll do that. Alright. Alright. Give us the last one, which is the second one.
Trent Rogers:Okay. So this is the one I'm maybe least least sure about.
Jared:Okay.
Trent Rogers:So... And I'll I'll I'll tell you why once once I'm done with this. So develop teaching outlines and messages to express the author's intended meaning. So develop teaching outlines and messages to express the author's intended meaning. Okay.
Trent Rogers:So I think that's a good skill, right? We want them to, we want them not to just, be able to express things in a compelling ways and clear ways. We do think these outlines and developing messages is helpful. So not everything that a professor is going to grade in the course is going to be a video of the student communicating, right? Which is there's limited time.
Trent Rogers:So I can evaluate the skills that they're developing in interpretation and then expression of these ideas with things like illustration application through an through an outline or or or a written message more quickly. What, gives me some pause is, I am in a podcast about AI resilient course objectives. And I read this one and I think, I could plug that into chat and chat could probably give me a teaching outline.
Trent Rogers:Yeah.
Trent Rogers:Nevertheless, I think it is a skill that they need to develop.
Jared:Right.
Trent Rogers:I just haven't perhaps prescribed it really well in this particular objective.
Rob:So I guess clarification. Based on what you stated earlier, it seems like this particular skill should have already been there.
Trent Rogers:So... Because you used the word develop. They're developing the outlines. So they're they're interpreting the text, they're developing the outline, and then they're expressing. So...
Rob:So they're not developing their ability to create outlines?
Trent Rogers:They are as they develop outlines. You grow in your ability through the practice of it.
Rob:No. I don't disagree with you. I'm just thinking capstone and the fact that they've already gone through... Have they met how to do these things before? Like, create the outlines,
Trent Rogers:create the messages? They've received some training in teaching ministry one and two. Now it's the expression of this with a real text. So I know, like... So let me let me back up a little bit too.
Trent Rogers:Jared felt the freedom to wrench my objectives out of their, there was... The author did have an intended meaning, in this contemporary context.
Trent Rogers:I feel attacked. So There's a lot of feeling going on in there.
Jared:So I'm expressing that I feel like I'm being attacked.
Trent Rogers:So if you just look at the the the verbs for this particular course, interpret interpret the text, develop the outlines, express. So there is even a sequence in there and how we think teaching happens. So that they interpret the text, they develop the the message and then they deliver it. Does that does that make some sense of of why those verbs are in a sequence?
Rob:No, it does. Now that you explain them the way you've explained them, I was just trying to make sure I was understanding what you were getting after. Because if you're in a capstone course and you're waiting until that time to actually develop their skills to to create outlines, that was where...
Trent Rogers:Yeah. So some for develop could be construct or create. Right.
Trent Rogers:Mhmm.
Trent Rogers:To... In at least in my mind. Yes.
Rob:It's much more... Because develop has this this sense of the imperfect. Yeah. You know, which I get you're probably trying to go that way to some degree because we're always learning. So I'm not I'm not against that.
Rob:I was just trying to make sure I understood exactly what you were you were after. Is that fair?
Trent Rogers:Yeah. And and, you know, Jared's been editing my objectives in live here.
Trent Rogers:I see what he... He's constructing something.
Trent Rogers:Are we going with create or are we going with
Narrator:If it's the end of the...
Jared:If you're wanting by the end of this course that they're done, then it should be create.
Rob:They should be able to create or... I mean, even construct. But create, you're basically saying that's the basis for everything else, like the third objective. Like, they have to be able to do that.
Trent Rogers:That's
Rob:right. And they have to do that really well. So in other words, it's not they're learning how to do it. They're showing you mastery or they're showing you competency at least.
Trent Rogers:Yes. And growing in that. Because as they as they do that skill, as they practice that skill, they're gonna get better and they get my feedback. Right? So I really hope that even in that course that they're getting better.
Rob:But I would say I would say create, you know, you could go with develop. Just create definitely makes it a lot more gives a lot more clarity, I should say. Now, let's talk about AI resilience because he brought it up.
Jared:Yeah. He sure did.
Rob:As we, finish this up. I don't know if we have time to make each one of them AI resilient, do we? I don't
Jared:think you have... Like, for me, the only one you would want to make AI resilient is the second one, develop...
Rob:Because the other... So the other two, we can't... The way they're assessing them, they can't really be spoofed.
Jared:Yeah. If you're communicating and you're interpreting biblical text...
Rob:I mean, the written part could be. But the oral... I'm assuming that you're assessing orally in a way that they can't really spoof it.
Trent Rogers:It would be a lot of
Rob:work too. It would be a lot more work to spoof it than it would be to just Yeah. Just do it.
Trent Rogers:Yeah. Because keeping in mind again, this is online course. Right. Right. So Right.
Trent Rogers:I'm not... Some of the ways that we make assess... We can make assessments AI resilient is to make them oral interactions. Right?
Rob:Yes. Yes.
Trent Rogers:There's oral examination components that really aren't as conducive to the online environment. But it can be AI resilient in the sense that I'm I'm... They're recording themselves presenting something.
Rob:Right. So the outline, that's what you were you were...
Jared:Yeah. I feel like we need to turn that into AI resilient in some way. What are your thoughts?
Rob:Well, I'm curious as to if he's bringing anything to the table yet. I do have some I do have some ideas, but I also know you've already been thinking about this. So what...
Trent Rogers:What's... So my question, I think this is maybe an overarching question, is does the objective itself need to be AI resilient or does the method of developing that student competency need to be AI resilient?
Jared:This is a great question because I was just thinking, not just to say that we've gone over our time, but this is the question I was thinking about is like, does the objective have to be AI resilient or does the assessment, which one is more important to be AI resilient in this case? Because there... For all three of these, there is an element where it could be spoofed by by AI of some degree. Right. But if you necessarily look at the assessment portion of it, is that...
Jared:That to me seems to be the more specific part where you can be AI resilient.
Rob:Yeah. And I would I would, I would not disagree with you both on that. I would say we'd probably wanna focus more on the assessment piece because what you're what you're saying here is that a student has to have these things. Like, they need to be able to put together the outlines. They need to be able to analyze the text in such a way that's in...
Rob:That fits with how it was intended, how it was written, And, you know, repurpose that. Repurpose is probably not the right word. Reflect it in an outline format so that they have a good idea, not just of a chapter, but also the entirety of a book and fitting it back in with other books. So I guess, I would have to say in this point, I would I would lean more towards the assessment part.
Jared:Yeah. Which we'll talk about in our next lab episode with Mhmm. Doctor Trent Rogers.
Rob:So what we're saying is there's nothing we necessarily need to do with the objectives at this point to make them resilient. And I think that fits with what we've said in the past too.
Trent Rogers:So I passed? You passed. Well, sort of. Well...
Jared:I gotta listen back and pull out the rubric and
Rob:and see. The discerning rubric. I've enjoyed this conversation.
Trent Rogers:That's been good.
Rob:100%. And I think it highlights not only doctor Rogers Trent, but the faculty that work alongside him to create these programs. Because I know... And I think he would say this, he hasn't done this in a vacuum. Right.
Rob:And we've got a lot of great colleagues here at Cedarville. So this has been a joy. Thank you, sir.
Trent Rogers:Yeah. Thanks for having me.
Ryan:Thanks for listening to this episode of Transform Your Teaching. If you have any questions or comments about our conversation with Doctor. Rogers, feel free to send us an email at CTLPodcastcedarville dot edu. You can also connect with us on LinkedIn and message us there. And finally, don't forget to check out our blog cedarville.edu/focusblog.
Ryan:Thanks for listening!