Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
The Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel is a transformative and supportive Podcast, dedicated to helping those who are, or have been, abused by narcissists to heal from the ravages of narcissistic abuse. Our show is a lifeline for those who are looking for next steps in their emotional and psychological healing, offering expert guidance and practical solutions for those who are in narcissistic relationships or are rebuilding their lives after narcissistic abuse. The hosts are Attorney Padideh Jafari and Jon McKenney who have helped hundreds of people in their narcissistic abuse recovery and know the journey personally in their own lives. Â
They're only interested in the power, in the prestige that that these kinds of positions bring them, and that's what narcissists are chasing.
Voiceover Artist:In a world of hurt and pain, we find our way to break the chain, a caring heart, a guiding light. Lead us through the darkest night with preservation in our soul, we'll rescue those who've lost control, escape the grip of a narcissist on our journey to recovery bliss. Welcome to the Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel with John McKinney and Padida Jafari.
Jon McKenney:Alright. Padida, how are you doing today?
Padideh Jafari, Esq:I'm doing well. How are you?
Jon McKenney:Wonderful. Been a little while since we've recorded, so it's good to see your face.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:Yes. It's good to see you too, bestie.
Jon McKenney:And you've done a little vacating. I think you were you were in you actually traveled to a couple places, haven't you? Mexico, Florida, any place else? New York, maybe? You got to New York, and you had a graduation.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:I did. Our youngest son graduated from the University of Tampa, so that was really exciting. And, you know, all three boys are now on their way. Two are college graduates, and the other one is a snowboard instructor.
Jon McKenney:So Alright.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:Really, really excited for the boys and to kinda see this next chapter in their life as they, you know, flap their wings and get jobs and and all the things. So really excited for them.
Jon McKenney:That's exciting. And I gotta tell you, there's really this very cool thing to be able to keep your own money and and for them to be off the payroll. So that's a really nice achievement.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:Yeah. That's a really good point. You know? We're excited not to be paying for tuition, although we will be paying for, you know, helping pay for some rent with our youngest, so until he gets a job.
Jon McKenney:Yeah. Well, I mean, that's not so bad, at least providing a little money for the transition. So so that's kinda good. I was in Florida for a while. I visited with some family down there.
Jon McKenney:Got a couple of days in at the beach too, and that was that was nice as well. So it's been it's been great. And Georgia's been relatively cold this year, so I'm kind of excited about that.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:Yeah. I mean, I live in Southern California, so weather is always beautiful here.
Jon McKenney:That's what I that's what I understand, but you do have earthquakes, which I don't really like.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:Yes. We do have earthquakes. That is true.
Jon McKenney:See, I just can't imagine spending all this money on a house and and then finding the next morning all you have are matchsticks. Just just hard for me to absorb.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:That's why you're in Georgia.
Jon McKenney:Yes. Yep. So we have a pretty interesting topic today, Padilla. What do we got going on?
Padideh Jafari, Esq:So we thought to talk about narcissists at work because the whole point of doing this podcast was a community service for our listeners to kind of spot narcissists in their lives and basically to help them recover. And how do you recover from narcissists? So one of the things we thought about is pointing out some of the professions that narcissists usually get into, and so we thought that would be a really good topic today.
Jon McKenney:Well, you know, I I I really do think that's a good topic. We talk about most of the most of the time, we're talking about familial kind of relationships. We're talking about narcissists, having a dating relationship with a narcissist or or being in a marriage with a narcissist or having a brother or sister with a narcissist or having a mother or a father who's a narcissist. But the reality is perhaps most people first encounter a narcissist at work.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:That's a good point. That's really a good point.
Jon McKenney:I would tell you that my first encounter with a narcissist, I really believe, was at work. Although my parents, I would say, have relatively narcissistic tendencies. They're avoidant people. I wouldn't call them full blown narcissists, gaslighters, and that kind of stuff. They wouldn't out and out tell me a lie one day and then tell me a different lie the next day.
Jon McKenney:That was not their jam. But we could have a fight and I could come home and they would pretend that everything was fine because they were avoiding the conflict. That's a little different. But my first real encounter with narcissistic behavior was in the workplace.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:I would agree with that. I mean, I always knew I wanted to be a lawyer since I was five years old. And so when you know you wanna be a lawyer since you're five, you're gonna you know, encounter a lot of people that are gonna try to talk you out of it. And so I actually started a work for a family law attorney in Brentwood actually. And looking back on it, I could see that he was definitely a narcissist.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:He was a lawyer from New York City and he came to California to start his his practice. And, I just remember he was just so cold with the clients, and he would throw back then, it was a rotary phone, and he would throw the phone
Jon McKenney:Oh my gosh.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:Across the hallway when he would get upset, and it was all about, like, making money. And I thought to myself I really thought to myself, John, if this guy can do it and become a lawyer, I can too because I'm so much more compassionate. And so I have looked him up by the way. He is not practicing law anymore, but he's retired now. But yeah, I remember he was looking back on it now that he was definitely a narcissist.
Jon McKenney:Well, I can imagine that too. My situation is not wholly different either. I would tell you that my particular situation, you know my history is in ministry, and we're gonna talk about professions where we think narcissists kinda hide, and spoiler alert, the clergy is actually at the top of my list.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:Yeah. No doubt about that.
Jon McKenney:My my first the let me see. First, second. The third I can't remember whether I'm trying to count. I'm going back to my internship. The first pastor I served under full time, I would probably classify as a covert narcissist.
Jon McKenney:He was cheating on his wife with three different women in the church and was ultimately removed, and everything kinda spun around him. He didn't really care much about anybody else. I only worked with him for six months, but when he got found out, and he did, the work was absolutely nothing short of destructive. His his personality was destructive. In fact, I will tell you the damage he did to that church lasted decades.
Jon McKenney:Two of the people on staff two of the people he was cheating with were on staff, so we weren't a large staff of people, so we lost half of our staff overnight. And as a staff, this is my first church, where we're left with the fallout of that. I didn't stay in that church long, I think largely because of his shenanigans, and I was just burned out from having to deal with that situation. And this is before I really understood anything about narcissism. And then I would tell you the the third I guess the fourth guy I served with, I would classify now as a pretty malignant narcissist.
Jon McKenney:One of the telltale signs for me him was he was constantly proverbially pointing a gun to your head and say, do this or else you're fired. Do this or else you're fired. Do this or else you're fired. You didn't feel like you could trust him in person. In fact, he was very, very charismatic in the pulpit.
Jon McKenney:The guy spoke very, very well. I mean, he's a phenomenal communicator, but if you got in his office with him, he was one of the most untrustworthy people you could find, and he would verbally dismantle you in a heartbeat. He was so silver tongued. If you did or said something he didn't agree with, he would he would just verbally tear you apart in an instant, and you you didn't know what to do with it. Then the Again, he flew under the radar well, I think, because he preached so well.
Jon McKenney:He was very charismatic and charming and everything you would think a narcissist is. And then privately, he was just all you felt was fear around him if you were with him individually. And the guy I served with after him was probably the most classic narcissist of any. There wasn't anything I trusted about the guy. I used to tell people there's so much smoke around him.
Jon McKenney:I don't even wanna know what the fire is. He would come in. He'd come in on a Saturday. He was a baseball fan, and he would come in on a Saturday for the game, go to the game, preach Sunday, and then leave the majority of the time Sunday night, and he would go to some conference. He always had a conference to go to or some kind of leadership this or leadership that, and he would pay for it out of this little nonprofit he had set up under the church.
Jon McKenney:So he would take Tithes are 10% of people's income. He would take a tithe of the tithes that came in and put it in this nonprofit, which we later found out wasn't even a nonprofit, and it was basically money he could spend however he wanted to, and he would spend his money traveling around. He said it was for missions, but it really wasn't. So he traveled around an awful lot, and ultimately, about six months after I left, and we caught him in so many lies, can't tell you. Everything was about him.
Jon McKenney:It was crazy. I don't know that I've ever met somebody so self centered before in my life as him. And we even had the courage to kinda tell him, and he didn't really care. But he was eventually found out he'd had a girlfriend. The the weekend he was found out, he brought his girlfriend you can't make this shit up.
Jon McKenney:He brought his girlfriend to church that morning where his wife and his parents and his children would be. Broader
Padideh Jafari, Esq:I mean, people are so bold. It's like you can't believe it. I wanna say one thing. So we're talking about clergy here being narcissists. So I was involved, in New York City, and, I was serving there.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:I was, this is when I was teaching at NYU. So, wanted to get with, you know, a local church, and, it was so exciting. It was that some people that are Bieber fans might know this. It was the day that Justin Bieber came to church and he sat in the front row and he cried and it was all in the press. Well, I saw Justin Bieber that day because I was serving in that church.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:And something about it, John, did not make sense to me. I even brought my mom when she came to visit me in Manhattan to the church. Something about the pastor did not make sense to me. Okay? And he like his wife would get on the stage and he would say, oh, wow, everyone.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:Look at my hot wife. Like, things like that. And then he always wore, and he still does, by the way, he always wore these tight, tight, tight shirts. And it just didn't make sense to me. I'm like, here's a pastor.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:You're supposed to be, like, above reproach. Like and then the other side of me would say, well, don't judge. Don't judge because, you know, they beat that over your head in church. Like, don't judge. Only God can judge.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:But okay. But I have discernment. Right? Can I use my discernment? So anyway, after being there about a year and a half, I just decided, you know what?
Padideh Jafari, Esq:I can't do this anymore. And and there wasn't a reason, like, I had built up friendships there. I loved my friends. I loved the girls that I would serve with. We'd go and get coffee afterwards.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:Yeah. And it was just such a great, like, fellowship for me. And I my family, you know, is in California. So these were sort of, like, became family. And one day, John, I just said, I can't go back to Hillsong, New York City.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:Like, I just can't do it. Well, during COVID, you talk about cheating. He was found out to be cheating with with this woman.
Jon McKenney:That's like the big deal with them all. Left out. I realize I'm sitting here going, I left out a pastor who was one of the last guys I served with, and ultimately he was found out to be cheating as well.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:And then what happened was he was cheating on his wife, then he, you know, stepped stepped away. And guess who has a new podcast with his wife? Years later, it's him. And it's like, yes. Can God restore people?
Padideh Jafari, Esq:Absolutely. Of course. You know, as as born again believers, that's what I believe. But if you look at and I've heard his podcast, he sounds about the same as he did back, you know, full of himself. So two things we wanna say.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:Lawyers, you know, can be narcissists and choose that profession.
Jon McKenney:You've talked
Padideh Jafari, Esq:about And then also clergy.
Jon McKenney:Yeah. And you've talked about how how with lawyers, oftentimes narcissists are drawn to other narcissistic lawyers. You're you're not you're not just dealing with you know, you're you're trying to help the victim of the narcissist, and not only you're having to deal with the narcissist themselves because you're fighting them, but you're also having to deal with a narcissistic attorney who is defending the narcissist and constantly gaslighting and things like that. That's gotta be ridiculously exhausting for you.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:Yes, and I always tell my client that. I say, usually the narcissist will pick a narcissistic attorney, and so while you're battling your soon to be ex, I'm battling the narcissistic attorney. So so far, we've discussed lawyers, and we've discussed clergy. By the way, there's a lot of news these days about, people in the church, pastors in the church that are stealing from the church, and then it's just it's really hard to to see and read about these people because they're supposed to be of service to the community. They're supposed to be above reproach.
Jon McKenney:Let's talk about the why in that for a minute, because and maybe I'm skipping ahead here a little bit, maybe not. But I think there's a reason narcissists are drawn to ministry kind of stuff. First thing is this, and a quality of a position that I think narcissists are drawn to. Narcissists are drawn to positions where they have authority over other people. Where they can
Padideh Jafari, Esq:Yeah, they love the power.
Jon McKenney:They love the power. And in pastor kind of situations, there is very little accountability, especially for a narcissist. The last guy I served with, he was completely unchecked, and his habit was the staff that he had, he would pull out of the local college, and they'd never been in a ministry situation before, so they didn't know how went. And he would absolutely dominate them. He was threatening.
Jon McKenney:He had to have somebody he was bullying on staff all the time. In fact, there was a guy on staff before me at this last church I served in in Pennsylvania, and he was the guy who was constantly bullied. And we talked about it because when I came aboard, I became that guy, new man on the team. Even though I had twenty years experience in ministry, I was the new guy on the team, and he had talked about it. He said, The pressure's kinda off me now that you're here because I don't have to worry about being bullied anymore.
Jon McKenney:And this guy would gossip about people in the church. He would threaten people in the church if they didn't do exactly what he wanted. He would literally, at times, spy on people to find out if they were doing wrong, and he had this basically, it the it was the Santa Claus good and bad list, and you could you could easily get on the bad list if you were you'd done something that that he deemed wrong, but confront him about his lying and his gaslighting and he would absolutely tear you to shreds. Eventually, just said, you know, I wanna leave in peace. Spent less time there than any other place.
Jon McKenney:And I just said to him, look, this is not the right fit for me. I wanna leave in peace. And he basically said to me, You will do what I say or I will make this the worst exit of your life. And he absolutely did. He bad mouthed me to absolutely everybody in the church, and he went so far as to call back my references and tell them what a bad guy I was.
Jon McKenney:No joke. So they have this they want this control. They want this authority. They want this ability to go manipulate people, and they will do absolutely anything to go manipulate them. For their for their own selfish and and oftentimes just ridiculously evil kinda needs.
Jon McKenney:It's Yeah. It's to It's hard to watch if you're involved in those kind of situations and very, very hard to endure if if you're you're you happen to be the the victim of one of these people.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:Yeah. They they seek after status and prestige, public recognition, power and influence, competition, opportunities for leadership, high income, or visible success. And high income, we know that narcissists are in love with money.
Jon McKenney:They are.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:Okay? Narcissists don't do I don't think if it's covert, overt, malignant, they are in love with money. So they will not ever do anything that does not involve them getting paid.
Jon McKenney:Yeah. I used to have one pastor I served with who you know, we we'd lived at the time near a local football team, and and he would he would stand at the door and look for the the NFL players. Anybody who had money or power or prestige or anything like that, he would stand at the door and introduce himself and make sure that he was able to be in touch with those people. It's not just money. I have to tell you, I think it's also sex.
Jon McKenney:Think they use power to get themselves sex as well. The first guy I served with that I told you had He'd been cheating with two of the staff members. After he'd left, I stayed on staff for about a year, and I was at this youth ministry retreat with some other youth pastors, and one of the guys who was actually a pastor and brought his youth group out, and I remember him asking, So what church are you from? And I told him what church I was from, and he looked at me and he goes, Oh. And I go, Look, you and I have not ever met before.
Jon McKenney:I didn't do anything to you, just so you know. And he goes, No. He said, I feel a lot of guilt over your situation. And I go, What are you talking about? Honest to God's truth.
Jon McKenney:So your pastor who cheated was in a church in South Florida two or three years ago, and I had a woman come to my church who came into my office and she said, Look, I've really got something to kind of confess, but you have to promise me that you're not going to go do anything with it, because I really need to talk to somebody about it, and I'm really struggling, but you have to promise me. And he said, Look, I can't make that promise, but she goes, No. Then I'm not going to talk about it unless she promised. So he promised kind of begrudgingly, and she opened up and said, Look, she'd come from another church, and that church happened to be the pastor of that church happened to be the guy who got moved to my church years later, and she told this guy, she said, look, the pastor told me if I would do sexual favors for him that it would go well for me and my family. And she did it.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:Sorry. This is just This is just hard
Jon McKenney:to hear. It is hard to hear. It's And he said
Padideh Jafari, Esq:It's so triggering.
Jon McKenney:It is. I'll bet. And he said and he said, I he said, I I feel such guilt over it. And she said, I forbid you to tell anybody. He said, look, let's go get this guy.
Jon McKenney:Let's go let's go get this guy because this if he's doing it to you, he's doing it to other people also. So let's go get this guy. She she forbade him from doing anything, and he felt like he really needed to honor his word even though he knew all this stuff. So fast forward years later, and this guy gets moved to my church, and he does the same exact damn thing to other women, and this time he got caught. But, you know, ultimately, you know, there's a church destroyed and people's lives destroyed because these people chase after sex as well.
Jon McKenney:Yeah. They have a very manipulable population. Why this woman didn't step forward and tell somebody on her own, I don't know. I'm sure there's a lot of fear in that. And I think as a woman, it's a different kind of processing than if a guy did it.
Jon McKenney:So I come from a man's perspective, so I don't understand it all. But I I I you know, it there there's disrupt ridiculous destruction in the in the wake of these pastors who choose these careers and are narcissistic.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:Yeah. It's very triggering to hear because, you know, they just yeah. These pastors are just evil. I mean, I don't know how else to say it. Also included in that list is obviously, we wanna include politicians.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:That's no surprise.
Jon McKenney:Politicians, and I I also wanted to qualify presidents. So I I Yeah.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:We won't name any, but yes.
Jon McKenney:We know what? We we we don't we don't have to name any because I think they're all relatively narcissistic. And and not only are they narcissistic, you know, it's it's two sides of one coin, the covert narcissist and the malignant narcissist. And is it better the devil you see or better the devil you don't? I don't know.
Jon McKenney:I think most of these people narcissistic. I will tell you this as well. In my current profession, which I've been doing for twenty two years now, and it's not ministry related, I have had I've encountered and had interaction with many, many politicians, and I will tell you that the overwhelming majority of them are ridiculously narcissistic. They care only about themselves. They care only about the deals they're trying to work.
Jon McKenney:They're not interested at all in the people they are serving. They're only interested in the power, in the prestige that these kinds of positions bring them. And that's what narcissists are chasing. You talked about the finances. They're chasing the money.
Jon McKenney:Right? They're chasing sex and sexual favors. They're also chasing the authority that comes with these positions as well, and they love that public prestige, that public honoring that they get. Because keep in mind, narcissists the whole are public driven. They don't we talk about this all the time here at Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel Narcissists do not have a conscience.
Jon McKenney:They do not have an ability to go and evaluate their own behavior and evaluate whether it was right or wrong, good or bad. They don't. The way they evaluate themselves is by how the public sees them. So if they're perceived as favorable by their constituents or by their parish or the people that are the minions, and they do think of you as minions, by the minions that are underneath that, they are perceived favorably than they see themselves as good, and they see what they're doing is good. Has nothing to do with right or wrong.
Jon McKenney:The absolute power can corrupt absolutely with these people and their positions, but they love, love, love the prestige that comes along with that kind of authority.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:Yeah. I would say another one is entertainers, actors, and then I would say social media influencers too. There is this one influencer I gotta just talk about. His name is James something or other. I'll find his name.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:So he's getting a lot of heat right now on TikTok because somebody got I guess it was a stewardess or flight attendant, I should say, got laid off with Spirit Airlines because Spirit Airlines laid off a bunch of people and closed shop. So this influencer, she's a young younger, woman. She went and she said, hey, James, can you didn't even ask for money, but just said, hey, can you shed some light on, you know, this or whatever, or give me maybe an idea or something because he's got over 40,000,000 followers. Holy crap. Yes.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:On on just TikTok. So she just reached out that way. Didn't ask for money, but sometimes, you know, you ask somebody like for wisdom or, hey, can you help me with x y z? And that's what she was doing. Well, he he recorded himself a scathing scathing John reply to her asking for help saying, who do you think you are?
Padideh Jafari, Esq:Get your excuse my language. Ass out there and get another job. Who do you think you are? Like, just like overboard. Okay.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:So she went, you know, on TikTok and was saying like, hey. This is this is the reply I got from James. So everybody's trying to, like, cancel him. And so it's interesting to see him going from, like, forty forty million followers down, and people are, like, counting down because they're like, you're the the only reason you're a social media influencer is because of us people. And somebody reaches out to you for help, and this is the response you get.
Jon McKenney:So
Padideh Jafari, Esq:and I'm just I'm just laughing when I'm seeing people realize who he really is. Like, I believe that he was always narcissistic, but because he has a social media platform, that narcissism is actually like he's got some influence. Right? He's got some public recognition and influence. And so now he is talking down to people as if he wasn't in that situation himself.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:Right? So it's just interesting that people are waking up to people that are narcissistic and don't treat people well and don't have a conscience. I mean, could you imagine telling someone that lost their job, you know, get your ass out there, you know, start working. Like, why you ask like, no. Sometimes people need a lending hand.
Jon McKenney:Absolutely.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:So, anyway, I I wanted to say entertainers, actors, and social media influencers because of this James guy that I just saw this past couple of weeks, you know, going through this and the recording and everything. So it's just awful. It's awful to witness Yeah. Somebody being so cruel.
Jon McKenney:You know, that that cruelty is is a telltale sign of of most anybody you would see in the workplace or church or something like that who has narcissistic tendencies. You see a cruelty. Like, I look back on that particular pastor who is absolutely cruel to me. The last guy I served, I'd moved my family a thousand miles away, left my home and my business to go take this ministry position, and he said, Look, the church is gonna provide for you housing until your house sells. That's how committed we are to getting you here.
Jon McKenney:And I'm like, Oh man, that's fantastic. Do that. So we moved, and three months later he said, So, hey, by the way, pulled me in privately. He goes, So, by the way, when are you going to start paying rent on this new house the church has secured for you? And I said, Well, as soon as my house sells, that was our agreement.
Jon McKenney:He goes, Oh, no. That was never our agreement. Your house doesn't it's irrelevant of your house selling. Your house could take years and years to sell. We arranged this for you.
Jon McKenney:You need to pay rent to this guy. I told him, I said, On what you pay me? I can't afford a mortgage and rent. I said, You're gonna put me in the poor house. And I I said this to him too.
Jon McKenney:I stood up to him and I said, I want you to know that if you are the kind of person I said, I know. I know what you said to me. And if you were the kind of person who could lie to me about something like this, I could never work for such a person, and I'll be out of here. Just so you know. And I will tell everybody I know what you've done, and it shut him up.
Jon McKenney:Because again, you have to play them publicly, and he was he was he became fearful and honored his word because of that. But here, I'm in a position where I've moved my family a third of the way across The United States. I'm counting on the church to help me through this process of getting my house sold, and I told them upfront, if it's you know, providing if it's paying rent and a mortgage all at the same time, I'm out. I just I just can't do that. So they knew they'd known that upfront.
Jon McKenney:And then to come back and lie to me about such things, there there it was abject cruelty. And that's the way it is with these people. You you particularly in the workplace. Their demands are unreasonable, and it's very difficult to to work for these folks in any way, shape, or form whatsoever because they are constantly about self, and they do not care about the people who are under them in any way, shape, or form. And that's how that's what you'll feel constantly.
Jon McKenney:Let me give you a little tip, leadership tip. A real leader, you will wanna take proverbial bullets for, not because you have to, but because you want to. Because Oh, yeah. You know you know that that ultimately they truly care about you, and they will, even in a leadership capacity, if you demonstrate caring for the people that work for you, they will take bullets for you when it's hard, when they go and get stuff. I've seen that in my own life.
Jon McKenney:Have a phenomenal staff that I work with here in my day job, and they take bullets for me when it's hard. When life gets hard, they're happy to step in because they know that they're cared for and they know that they're loved. And you will never feel that from somebody in leadership if you're dealing with a narcissist in any way, shape, or form.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:Yeah. It reminds me of a paralegal I have who she literally said to me, John, she said, I would do anything for you. You know that? Because I was I asked her something. I said, I don't know if you can do it was like dropping off a document on the weekend to me or something.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:I'm like, I don't know if I I can ask you this, if you can drop this off to me. And she said, you know, I would do anything for you. Right? And I said, well, I don't I'm not asking for you to do everything or anything, but I just want you know? And it was just exactly what you're saying.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:She was like, look. I know you're in a jam. You need this document. I'll drop it off on the weekend, knowing that this is a once in a blue moon type of thing, and I would never ask anyone to work on the weekend.
Jon McKenney:Correct.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:Absolutely. You're absolutely And and, you know, these narcissists, what they do are they're they're bullies. Right? So you are afraid to say no. You're afraid to say, hey.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:You know, that doesn't work for for me. That doesn't you know, what you're saying goes against my morals. Like, you can't say any of that because they'll just bully you to death.
Jon McKenney:Absolutely. I
Padideh Jafari, Esq:also wanna say one thing with the social media influencers and the entertainers, actors. These Real Housewives of I know you don't watch them. Orange County, which we deal with because we have an office in Newport Beach, Beverly Hills, Atlanta, all these new Real Housewives. These were regular women that were not celebrities. Right?
Padideh Jafari, Esq:They got some recognition because of Bravo, and now they're pseudo celebrities, I would say. They would probably call themselves celebrities, but I think they're pseudo celebrities. You could see the narcissism. I know you don't watch these shows, but you can see the narcissism. And people are like like, who are these people?
Padideh Jafari, Esq:You know? And were did they have narcissistic traits before they became, you know, popular? Probably. Right? And then this narcissism just kind of shows because now they're popular, successful, all the things.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:I mean, I know we had Vicki Gulvinson on our show.
Jon McKenney:Gulvinson.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:She's a she's a sweetheart.
Jon McKenney:A doll.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:An absolute sweetheart. And now she's back on the show, by the way. She got rehired to be
Jon McKenney:of wonderful.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:Yeah. She was excited. Remember, she was on her show saying she wanted to be back on Bravo, and she was like, I don't know why they won't hire me. Well, she's hired now, so she's back on the show.
Jon McKenney:Maybe they maybe they heard her on our channel.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:Yeah. I know I know you don't follow Rawhousewives of Orange County, but I was so super happy that she was back on the show because she does add a lot of value. And so anyway, if you haven't listened to that episode, she was on her episode talking about her exes who were narcissists. So definitely go back and check that out.
Jon McKenney:Yeah. You you know, I mean, anything any positions where you have a following, I mean, that's the commonality here. Actors have a following. Pastors have a following, and there's a fine line, quite honestly, between a pastor and a cult leader. We've seen that a lot in our history as well.
Jon McKenney:Anything where you have authority over other people, and quite honestly also, narcissists you'll also find narcissists drawn to these people as well because they like to cozy up to people like that who have authority because if they have authority, it's like they're lending their authority to the other narcissist. I know for me, looking back and in retrospect, because I was in the ministry and I had people who followed me, I think that my ex loved that. I think she loved the authority and the recognition of being a pastor's wife, and she loved the accolades that that came with. She loved the fact that people followed me, and it gave her respect to people that she would not have otherwise had. And then when I left the ministry, I can remember we were going to another church, And you know what she said to me?
Jon McKenney:Again, this will probably be I've been thinking about writing a new book that I'll talk about later someday, but I talk about those rare moments where narcissists tell you the truth, and she said, You know, I just feel like I want to get close to our pastor. And I was like, What? Yeah, I just want to go be near him and I want to know him and I want this and I want that. And I love the recognition he gets, and I want to be close to him. So narcissists also cozy up to these people because of the recognition and the authority that they lend others.
Jon McKenney:So you may not only have a narcissist themselves, you also may find that they have a team of people around them, that those closest to them are also narcissists as well, which makes those environments, whether it's work or whether it's church or any of those things similar that that you find that that you have a whole group of people that are very difficult to to deal with.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:Right. Those are like the they're flying monkeys. Those eventually, those flying monkeys are almost worse Yep. Than the narcissists because they're doing the narcissist's bidding for them. Another profession I wanted to mention, and this I have to be careful because obviously I'm a licensed practicing attorney, but I have dealt with a lot of people in law enforcement that, you know, because we do because we do domestic violence cases and get restraining orders for people.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:I've seen that on that side, and then I've also seen it on the divorce side. And I've had several women tell me that it was very hard, and, you know, like, they wanna divorce their law enforcement spouse, and it's very hard because they're afraid of being tracked. They're afraid of being, you know, bullied. Wow. All the things.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:And and one particular client of mine said it was coercive control, but she didn't know those words. And she said, you know, he'll put a tracker in my car because he has before. He'll check my my phone. He'll get his friends to bully me that are other law enforcement. And, believe it or not, John, I saw this for myself because she I helped her file the divorce.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:And then six months later, we had to get the restraining order because the post separation abuse was so bad. And when the judge gave us the restraining order, he mentioned coercive control because, you know, they're smart enough, right, not to hit you because they're law enforcement. They're like, that's gonna get their job taken away. So what they do is it's called coercive control where they will take the money, hide the money, close the accounts. They will verbally abuse, saying things like, you know, you're not good enough.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:What would you do without me? Things of that nature. And so the judge literally mentioned under coercive control. And the judge said, because the, law enforcement spouse would say, I'm closing the bank accounts, you don't have access to money, all the things. And he said, Because of the totality of the circumstances, I'm giving the restraining order because this money is community money.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:It's not just his money, even though he's earned it in California, it's considered community money, community property. So, and my client looked at me and she's like, literally she said, you are my angel because for so many years she was in a thirty five year marriage with him. She said, I didn't know the words. I just knew this is what he does. He, you know, closes the account, cuts me off if I'm not acting right or acting correctly, according to him.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:And so, yes, I've seen law enforcement. Unfortunately, again, it's a power move, it's ego, it's pride, it's all the things, and so they're very, very difficult to divorce, And some of them tend to have narcissistic tendencies, as I mentioned.
Jon McKenney:Yeah, I first started my channel on Instagram, one of the people I met early on was in a situation where she was involved with somebody who had been abused by a narcissist, and he went back to her. And that narcissist was, if I remember correctly, a chief of police, and made it so ridiculously difficult for her, she wound up having to move. And she was hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt trying to defend herself against things that were absolutely not a fact. She couldn't get a restraining order to stick, if I remember correctly. So what they do also is they take their authority and they use it against anybody that might not be on their side.
Jon McKenney:That's where you start to see the narcissistic tendencies really come out and into ridiculousness, where they start to take their authority and their power and abuse it with the legal system as well. I think she just got through that in the last year, and it's been four or five years I've been at this now. It's horrible to hear the stories of those who are in law enforcement in some kind of way. And again, these people, they abuse their authority. They abuse their power for their own selfish needs, and you see it.
Jon McKenney:You won't ever feel loved by them. You won't ever feel liked by them unless there's something to gain from you. You will feel used. I had a guy served with was in my church, and he had millions. He had absolute millions.
Jon McKenney:And of course, this pastor, the same one who loved the NFL players, made sure he cozied up to him. And this guy was and still is to this day, although he doesn't have a whole lot of money now. He's one of the most generous men I've ever met before in my life. And this pastor came in and took advantage of that. He gave the pastor millions to go buy land for churches and things like that, put it down.
Jon McKenney:And then his business took a turn for the worse, and the pastor was done with him, discarded.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:Of course.
Jon McKenney:Because he had no he had he he didn't love the guy. He didn't care for the guy. He abused the guy. He used him for the money to go help build his little kingdom. And to this day, they have absolutely no relationship.
Jon McKenney:I told him earlier on, I said, I'll never ask you for money. And he goes, What? He said, You know, I'd give it to you if you needed it. I go, I'll never ask you for money. And he said, why is that?
Jon McKenney:And I said, because I want you to know that I love you, and I want you to know that I genuinely care about you, and that it's not just about money. To this day, we're still in touch and we talk from time to time. But this guy was absolutely just used for his cash by my old pastor. It's horrible. And it's unfortunate.
Jon McKenney:And these kinds of things leave leave skid marks on a person's life that not only affect them personally at an emotional level, but even in ministry situations, their concepts and their abilities to go process spiritual things as well. You're like, Man, if this guy is close to God, I don't want anything to do with that.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:Oh, absolutely.
Jon McKenney:That's what winds up happening to so many of these people who encounter narcissistic clergy. Bigger than moving from one job to another. You know? It can it can affect your whole spiritual outlook on life as well.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:I wanna just mention two other professions. Medicine, I've heard that a lot.
Jon McKenney:Do you why medicine?
Padideh Jafari, Esq:Well, I feel like doctors have sometimes, they can have like a God complex, right, especially depending on the type of medicine that they practice. I've seen that a lot in my profession over the last twenty three years, people trying to divorce doctors. It's like, if you just see the doctor has a narcissistic personality disorder, and a lot of times they use sex as well with nurses and people that work in their office and all those things as well because they feel like they're entitled.
Jon McKenney:Interesting.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:And so they have a following, like you say. I remember dating a dentist once who had three dental offices, and he definitely had a God complex. It was like, it was weird to me. And I was a lawyer at the time, so I was like, I don't understand why you are so full of yourself. Looking back, the nurses were definitely like just in love with this guy.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:And he invited me actually to a Christmas party And you should have seen, John, what the nurses were doing. They almost had like a lap dance thing with Yes, it was him actually, and he had a partner. So they on this, they reserved a restaurant, and they sat in the middle, and the This was about twenty five years ago, and the nurses gave them lap dances. I'm not making this up. And I literally was like, this is the craziest thing I've ever seen in my life.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:Unbelievable. And it was like, you know, way, way, way before the Me Too movement. And it was just like and they would just, they were like Google for Gaga over this guy. And I couldn't for the life of me understand why. And I just remember, I just go, this is not the type of guy I want to be with.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:And actually he lied about his car. He had a Porsche, and when I asked him about the car in the garage, I was like, oh, you have a Porsche? I didn't know that because he also had another car. He goes, that's my friend's car. And then later on, he's he drove me in it, and I said, I thought this was your friend's car, and he lied.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:And he said, no. No. No. This is my car. I just said that because I didn't want you to get with me because of my money.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:And I said, I'm a lawyer. You're you're a dentist. Like, what are you talking about? So it was just this odd, odd, like, three month relationship. But the point of it is that's why I bring up medicine because some of these doctors have god complexes and they have a following like you discussed before.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:The last one I wanna mention is salespeople. Salespeople can have some narcissistic tendencies because they're so aggressive, and there's they don't care about the service they're offering you. They just wanna close the deal. And so I've noticed some salespeople, especially in my profession, because we do get pitched a lot. Okay?
Padideh Jafari, Esq:Different services. Right. I've seen some salespeople. I'm like, this is like, you're almost bullying me to buy this service, and I'm not gonna do it. I'm not gonna do it.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:So be careful of them as well.
Jon McKenney:Yeah. I had I had one other I almost hesitate saying.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:Well, I didn't wanna mention law enforcement, but I feel like we need to be honest with our listeners.
Jon McKenney:I get it. My last one was therapists.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:I was gonna say that too, actually. I was thinking that too. Yeah. Don't like I
Jon McKenney:don't like saying it because because people get oftentimes do really get helped by them. One of the one of the one of my staff members here used to be a clinical therapist, and he says this. He says, you know, if you care about people, they get better one way or the other. But there are some people out there who are therapists that really don't care about you. They're working for some means of course of control.
Jon McKenney:I flat out had a therapist tell me when I was telling her what was going on in my marriage and how I was being emotionally abused. I looked at her and I said, I can tell. I just want you to know, I can tell you don't care, and you have absolutely no compassion for my situation whatsoever. She said, yep. That's exactly right.
Jon McKenney:No compassion for you at all. I'm like, I'm being lied to constantly. You don't have any compassion for that? You don't have any any means of of fine nope. Not a shred.
Jon McKenney:Not a shred of it. And entertained the gaslighting, gaslighted me herself. And I wonder sometimes if the people that are drawn to that profession also are creating their own following one person at a time or trying to, and it winds up being more a selfish endeavor than it is actually a helping endeavor. And that doesn't mean that every therapist out there is a narcissist. No.
Jon McKenney:That course is not what I'm trying to communicate because we've had a couple on here who've been absolutely amazing people. I have my own therapist on here, and she's I'd hang the moon for that woman. She's absolutely phenomenal.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:Yeah.
Jon McKenney:But it does I do think if you're in a situation where you're looking for one, you need to be really careful, particularly if you're dealing with narcissistic abuse, that you don't put yourself in a situation where you're being narcissistically abused by yet another person. And I think that's possible in therapy environments.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:I will tell you, I'll be honest with you, in the last three years, I've had some clients that were therapists.
Jon McKenney:Yes.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:All of them. Without fail, I've had to let them go and fire them. What? Because yeah. Because they I could tell that there was something amiss.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:Like, I don't know if they think that they can manipulate the court system. I don't know if you know, usually what happens, I'll just give you an example. They'll do the consultation and they'll cry during the consultation, and they'll make you feel sorry for them. That's the first thing. And this is I've seen this a couple times over the last three years.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:So you feel sorry, and you're like, okay. Let let me try to help this person. You accept their case, and then you realize, oh my gosh. They're the problem. They're the problem parent.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:And I've seen this a couple times so I can speak of my own experience about this. And then you see they try to manipulate the court system and declarations and saying things that aren't true. And I've had to fire them. I've literally said, I'm not the right lawyer for you because And I haven't called the narcissist to their face, but I'm like, what you're saying is not true, and I have a moral obligation as an attorney to the judge. And we're officers of the court, and I'm not going to perpetuate a lie and a fraud.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:That's just not what I'm gonna do. Now, there's a lot of divorce attorneys in LA, where there's a huge county that will agree with you, that'll believe you, that'll say, You know what? I don't care about the truth. Let's just see what happens. Let's just put this lie out there and see what happens.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:We're not that type of firm. So if you're listening to this and you're thinking, wow, she just said she fired. Yes, we will fire you as a client because my belief is that we want to be a generation of lawyers that are moral, that are trustworthy, and that really want to help people like solve their problem. And we do not wanna perpetuate more violence, bullying. And so generally speaking, I haven't had that issue with other professions, but the couple of therapists, psychotherapists that I've represented over the last three years, we've had to fire.
Jon McKenney:Wow.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:Yeah, that means that they've had to go and get, like I've literally said, I will no longer represent you, please find other representation, and they've done that. They don't want to because once you figure them out, they're like, No, no, no, they wanna try to bully you into being your client. Not the one. We're just not the one. Yeah.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:So, and all these professions that we mentioned, this is just for you to keep in the back of your mind. This isn't saying all law enforcement, all lawyers, or all entertain but this is just something for you to keep in mind. And we're trying to bring awareness through our podcast, and this is just we want you to be aware.
Jon McKenney:That's all. And not only aware, but also I hope that you walk away going, Okay. Wait a minute. If somebody's in a situation where they kind of have a following, you need to pay attention. If you're in a situation where somebody's abusing their authority over you, you need to pay attention.
Jon McKenney:If you're in a work environment where somebody's constantly lying to you or trying to manipulate you or trying to control you. Good leadership is not controlling. You feel like you're constantly being controlled by somebody, if they're saying, Do this or you're fired constantly, guess what? They're trying to control you. And and and and that that is a narcissistic kind of tendency in in the workplace.
Jon McKenney:And you have to you have to decide what you wanna go do if you're in a situation like that with somebody.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:And let me just say this. This is the way I handle it, John. I don't confront the person. I move I I get in stealth mode, and I move quietly. 100%.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:I'm not going to tell the therapist client, by the way, I think that you have narcissistic tendencies or you're a narcissist. Like, what good would that do? Right? They're just gonna come back and attack and write bad Google reviews.
Jon McKenney:Correct.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:So I just say, we're not the right law firm for you. Why? Why? Why? Why?
Padideh Jafari, Esq:We're just not the right law firm for you.
Jon McKenney:Correct.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:You know? And and so
Jon McKenney:And you and you have and that that goes into the workplace as well. Right? So it's of no value to go, one, to confront because what they'll do is they'll just fire you and make it very difficult for you.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:Right. Or gaslight you again, and then you're in that cycle. And then also with friendships, like if I meet I don't make new friends normally, but let's just say, I just move in silence. I just quickly detach, like silently detach. These are not narcissists are not people you're going to confront, and then all of a sudden, the light bulb is gonna go off, and they're gonna be like, oh my gosh.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:I'm so sorry. They're just they're just not like that. So Right. I just move in silence, and before you know it, you will not hear from me.
Jon McKenney:Yeah. Well, you know, yeah. I mean, the same rules apply in the workplace, I think, as they do in in a marriage or in a relationship with somebody. Right? You're you're not going to change them.
Jon McKenney:So give that idea up. You're gonna get constant irrationality from them. And if you decide to stay in that environment, you have to understand that that's how the environment is gonna continue to be. It'll be topsy-turvy. It'll be self centeredness.
Jon McKenney:It'll be pointing the gun, the proverbial gun at you saying, Do this or you're fired. You will feel controlled. And ultimately, the only way to kind of deal with somebody like that is to leave. So if that's your environment, weigh that quickly and go, okay, maybe I need to go at least start looking for another place. These people Yeah.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:Escape.
Jon McKenney:Yeah. Escape. And these people also will fire you at a whim too. There is no job there's no job security out there anyways these days, but even less with somebody who's narcissistic because they get rid of you in a heartbeat. Before you can blink, you'll be gone one day.
Jon McKenney:They don't like something that you've done, they'll be looking for ways to get rid of you. They will cycle through people all the time also. As you'll see this stuff, you're probably going to have to go find another job anyway. So very quietly, without announcing, just go and look for another place to work and one word, because there are good people out there. There are good influencers out there.
Jon McKenney:There are good pastors out there. There are good therapists out there. There are good law enforcement, and I've been privileged to know so very many of these people.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:Me too. Me too. Also, no, also, exactly what you said. This is just for you to know so you can plan your escape silently.
Jon McKenney:Yep.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:This isn't for you to announce it in any way, shape, or form. After you leave, that's a different topic. Yep. Right? Because you've left the situation and now you're safe.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:Also, you announce it sometimes, like, you can be killed, right? So you don't really wanna be doing things like that. You wanna just move in silence, and then once you're away from it, then you can say, You know what? It didn't work because of this reason. Even then, I wouldn't go back and mention anything, but let them believe whatever they wanna believe.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:You just need to plan your escape silently. That's the message
Jon McKenney:Interestingly enough, these people will kinda move on and leave you alone. Like I said earlier, the one pastor I worked for right after I left was constantly I had to block him on Facebook. He was intentionally posting demeaning things to my wall at the time. Now, no joke. In fact, I think he was the only person at the time that I'd ever blocked.
Jon McKenney:And then I found out he'd also called back all my references and told me this kind of stuff too. Interestingly enough, you may recall I said that there was another employee on staff who he was bullying before me. And when I told him I was leaving, we had a conversation and I said, I give you six months. He goes, what do you mean? I said, you have six months.
Jon McKenney:He goes, what do you mean? And I said, if I'm not gonna be the the bullied, he's going back to you. And guess what? Six months later, he was gone. Wow.
Jon McKenney:Came back from his father's funeral. The pastor said, You did this, this, and this. Sign this on my desk, or you're gone. And threatened him. He'd literally had just gotten out of the car from his father's funeral, and the pastor put this on his desk and said, Do it or else you get fired.
Jon McKenney:And he was gone within six months' time.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:Yeah. These stories are so hard to hear because They're awful.
Jon McKenney:These
Padideh Jafari, Esq:narcissists are so heartless. It's just like I told you, triggering. Like, it's just so hard to hear, but we do this podcast for people to bring awareness.
Jon McKenney:Yep. Know what you're dealing with.
Padideh Jafari, Esq:If it helps one person, we've said this from the beginning, then we've done, you know, we've done a good job, I guess.
Jon McKenney:So Absolutely. Absolutely. Alright. Well, thank you for your time, and thank you for checking us out here at the Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel. We got some fun guests coming up this season yet, and some some more conversation to help educate you on what to do if you're in a situation where you're having to contend with a narcissist in day to day life and we're excited to continue to bring awareness and help to those of you who are who are tuning in.
Jon McKenney:From Padit and I both, you have a wonderful afternoon and and and continue to stay narcissist free.
Voiceover Artist:Thank you for listening to the Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel. Be sure to follow and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. To hear other episodes or read the associated blogs, visit www.narcissistabuserecoverychannel.com and be sure to follow us on Instagram with the handle narc. Podcast. The guest views, thoughts, and opinions expressed are their own.
Voiceover Artist:The information presented is for general informational purposes only and is not intended to be legal advice. The co hosts are not licensed therapists. Seek professional help as information is often state specific. The Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel is produced in studios in California and Georgia.