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Two founders talk about how to build software businesses that are meant to last. Each episode includes a deep dive into a different topic related to starting, growing, and sustaining a healthy business.
00:00.00
Rick
Um, Sam what's up this week what's up this week oh did I yeah.
00:02.89
tylerking
Um, not a lot and just you you jump the gut now. Ah we nailed the start of this right? Good job. Ah yeah, what's going on with you.
00:11.61
Rick
Ah, just hanging I I was in Denver earlier this week had a 4 am wake up to catch a 6 am flight and then got back late Tuesday is like a 36 hour trip um so I'm so recovering from that but you know.
00:22.74
tylerking
Um, ah.
00:26.26
Rick
Otherwise good heading to San Francisco next week and then should be done with travel for a little bit good month now. Love it. It's the best it's the best I have a good attitude. Yeah what? what? What do you have any cool updates this week
00:30.83
tylerking
What's a little bit a month I don't know how you do it man. That's a lot of travel. Okay, ah um.
00:46.16
Rick
Because this is this is unique. We have back-to-back week a podcast.
00:49.90
tylerking
Yeah, that's true because we are this is technically next week's episode. But since you're in San Francisco we moved it forward a week is that right? So it'll be three weeks before our next one? Okay, ah yeah.
00:56.59
Rick
Correct.
01:01.25
tylerking
I don't I don't know that I have anything that's all that like I have stuff that I'm interested in will it make for a good podcast I don't know but like the fellowship just started the coding fellowship for the summer so we've got 5 college students in the office now which is always a nice little jolt of energy.
01:14.71
Rick
I feel like 1 thing you should make them do at the on the last day is dress up as you know Frodo and as the lord of the rings characters the fellowship. The fellowship of the ring. Yeah.
01:25.34
tylerking
Okay, that's specific. Oh the fellowship. Okay, yeah I get it. Ah yeah I'll I'll run that by them. We'll see how that goes this is a mandate you know we don't haze anyone but.
01:34.20
Rick
Ah, no, yeah, this is like ah you just have to say this is a ritual and this is part of being part of the fellowship.
01:43.23
tylerking
I do kind of miss it if I'm being on it. We never did like terrible hazing but can I share the the 1 thing we did once that I it's probably in a like not like bad bad andappropriate but like you know you're not supposed to pick on new people. But one summer we had crm coach like customer service interns and we made a fake. A Crm customer account as a drug dealer and a bunch of actors and theater people work in the office so they know a bunch of people who are good at doing accents. We had them like call in and leave voicemails that led to an increasingly sketchy like. Someone running from the cops and then someone else disappeared we created a whole like weird drug dealer murder mystery and the interns were like what the fuck is going on here. But yeah, it was funny. You're not supposed to do that type of thing these days.
02:25.26
Rick
You got to do that again. Why did you not do that. That's awesome.
02:36.16
Rick
Ah, sounds awesome.
02:36.24
tylerking
I Think as far as hazing goes. It's not that bad, but it's probably still. Ah you know, not a good idea but it was fun while it lasted um it has started. Yeah, ah I it's weird because so we've had a.
02:40.64
Rick
I Agreed so the fellowship is starting.
02:54.53
tylerking
Former employee who ran it for a while and then she left and like because I know you know I started it and for people who don't know like this is just like an internship. But for people who are kind of Pre- Intern level. So like teaching people how to code and get ready for an internship the next summer. Um, it is paid I Forget what? But like.
03:06.83
Rick
Is it paid.
03:13.72
tylerking
Twenty five hundred a month or something like that I think um is basically a coding boot camp more or less but they get paid to take um but so like I took it back over when that person left because I know how to run it because I ran it originally and then now a new person has kind of taken it over and.
03:13.80
Rick
Pretty good that you get paid to take.
03:31.29
tylerking
I'm transitioning back out to like like I'm still in all the lessons and like I'm one of their main points of contact. But I I did like 0 prep for it this year I'm just showing up and sitting in a room watching a colleague of mine teach all the lessons. So. It's both. A big deal and like 1 of the weird things about delegating stuff is you're just you're like watching it get done but you're not doing it. It's it's like a weird kind of emotional loss in a way if you know what I mean um, I'm happy to I'm thrilled but like.
03:59.30
Rick
M.
04:05.40
tylerking
I've got enough going on I don't need to also prep for this So I don't mean to make it seem like I'm sad about it. But it's just kind of weird like watching someone else run your thing you know oh for sure for sure. Um, but yeah, other than that just kind of.
04:13.91
Rick
It's a good thing. Tyler.
04:20.77
tylerking
Mostly business as usual I got a few random updates but how about you? what's going on.
04:24.23
Rick
Um, I'm going to actually I was going to talk about 1 thing but I'm going to switch the order. So ah before this podcast recording I have my 1 hour weekly session with Jd and we're just really in a groove right now where we're working on the same thing. Um, well. It's all ah built. Ah, you know for for kind of a recap. It's built around building out our demand generation machine and so he's doing lots of outbound I'm helping him think through the scripting and the metrics and and the the process. Um, and then you know with the whatever remaining time we we basically start thinking about. The marketing side of the equation and how we can start building out our content. Um, you know offers etc. Um, we had a big realization a day on the ebook. We had 2 big realizations. The first one is like this e we're when we're writing this ebook together. So. Ah, we picked ah a topic that's very top of funnel that we want to be able to offer to pretty much any small business owner and help them and we settled on the 7 ah most common health insurance. Ah, you're handling the 7 most common health insurance questions from job candidates and employees and so the book the ebook is outlined but. But when I'm writing an ebook. It's actually really easy to put the content in the the hard part is why should someone care about this ebook and why do you? Why should you read it? Why did should you find value out of it and so we were we spent like 15 minutes just like looking up stats and like trying to try and to ah.
05:40.37
tylerking
Um, have.
05:51.90
Rick
Explain to ourselves why how we are going to pitch. Ah you know John John Smith small business owner on like why they should care about the zbook and we did. We had a bunch of stats coming out like you know something like ah you know, less than 50% of small businesses offer health insurance. Um 77
05:52.96
tylerking
Um, she she was.
06:08.73
Rick
Percent of employees say health insurance is a critical part of their compensation package. The number 1 reason people don't take job offers or they quit is compensation. You know it kind of gets into this and then we finally like we had the eureka moment where it was like oh we wrote this down. Most small business owners think the biggest thing they can do to help address employee health insurance concerns is to change their health benefits but in reality the number 1 thing they could do is get better at explaining what they offer or don't offer and what how employees can get better the best health insurance within the current situation.
06:44.26
tylerking
Um, ah.
06:44.57
Rick
And it was like ah that's exactly what leg up benefits exists to do is take their existing situation and make it better not like change their situation. Um, and we haven't ever explained it that concisely but it was a just a big unlock just a reminder of of how important it is so like collaborative writing particularly in ah in a.
06:46.38
tylerking
Um, yeah, yeah.
07:03.32
Rick
On white space. Whether it's whiteboarding or whatever like can unlock lots of clarity I think.
07:09.74
tylerking
Yeah I Hope that works because I mean this is the big challenge that leg up Health hasn't been able to crack right? is like why aren't this is free for employers. Why aren't they taking it? Um, but yeah positioning I know you're selling the ebook not the service. But. Trying to convince people like from the very beginning you don't have to change anything ah sounds like a potentially pretty good hook into that to me. Yeah.
07:36.10
Rick
Exactly and they think they do like that they think that they're stuck in their current situation and they can't make it better. Um, so so the other area ah that we focus on and though in the weekly updates is outbound um and we you know j d brought up a. Good question was like when do we actually? how do we know if this messaging is working and should we be tweaking it. Um, and so I said well I don't know. Ah let's just go through the data and see if it's working or not and so I asked the the you know I run um our sales development I'm over our sales development. Ah. Function at windfall which is our outbound motion. So I've learned a lot about like the metrics that matter and so the number one metric that matters for a sales development team is like how many people are you prospecting or accounts if it's a b two b organization versus how many meetings are you setting for sales and so it's a ratio and 20 to 1 is really really good. But you want to be in that 20 to you know 20 ah cold accounts prospected to 1 meeting booked. Um, you know you want to be in that to 20 to 25 to 1 ratio and so I asked him what's your ratio. You know what he said worse by a long shot. Ah 45 to 1.
08:41.64
tylerking
Um, better in that worse. Okay, okay.
08:49.50
Rick
He's done 10087 people have completed flows or completed outreach cadences or opted out and only for ah, successfully secured like meetings that lead to a sales process.
09:00.79
tylerking
Now when you say 20 to 1 is what you're shooting for. Do you mean? That's what windfall gets or that's like you've gone around industry benchmarks because windfall selling to a completely different customer and a completely different product from what leg of Health's Doing
09:15.85
Rick
It's it's I would say it's like it's suggests that suggestive regardless of industry that the outbound process is working in a predictable way that isn't incredibly inefficient.
09:23.81
tylerking
Yeah, so so maybe sorry to harp on this but like maybe my it's not that every business should be able to get that It's that if you can't get that you're probably not going like outbound isn't your thing probably.
09:37.21
Rick
It's it depending on you know acvs and value. It's very difficult to like make it worth something because yeah like if you're doing cold outbound and you can get It's built around like 1 meeting a day like generally if you're doing outbound and you get 1 meeting a day It's psychologically like okay I can do this um. And you know you kind of cap out at about 20 like 20 outreaches a day like 20 new accounts like added um just from a process standpoint um and a brain standpoint. Um, there's I'm sure there's call center sure pumping out way more volume but it's like the quality dip from you know, 20 doing twenty a day to
10:02.16
tylerking
Um.
10:13.24
Rick
Yeah, 30 is significant.
10:14.92
tylerking
Yeah, but like if you're in like a boiler room type setting. You're probably doing 200 and like like I assume windfall's not using like an auto dialer is that a technology you're familiar with yeah our customers ask for us all the time. Ah ask for this all the time. If for people who aren't familiar. It's this idea like.
10:17.53
Rick
Yeah. Now Yeah, very very familiar with it and no, we're not.
10:32.78
tylerking
You have your cr um you have like you import 10000 terrible leads into it and then it like calls 5 people at the same time assuming most of them won't pick up and if one does it connects you to the sales rep and if if to pick up I think it just hangs up on one of them is my understanding of how they work. Um.
10:49.90
Rick
Yeah I don't I don't know exactly? Um, but.
10:51.58
tylerking
So if you're doing that type of thing you're calling a lot more than 20 people a day but that's a different model.
10:55.28
Rick
Yeah, this is this is you know 1 and 1 to 1 in terms of like efficiency. Um, it also assumes that the outbound person is preparing the account for outreach. So there's another sort of specialization that you can do in so in the so outbound framework which is called account development. And the account development person is someone who isn't like actually on the phones but they're prepping an account in the contacts for outreach and then the sales development person is just like out doing outreach. You know both Jd and at winfall we have it so that the sales development person is doing both of those things. Um, and so it's it's a you know? ah.
11:24.66
tylerking
Um, yeah.
11:31.15
Rick
Less efficient but more personalization more like ah, thoughtful more more higher quality. Um.
11:31.46
tylerking
Yeah, you're spending 20 minutes looking someone up. Let's check out their Linkedin learn something about him and then let's call him not just call after call after call after call.
11:45.40
Rick
Exactly and 20 minutes is probably on the higher side of what you should be doing if you're trying to get to twenty a day generally yeah if you enjoy try to do twenty a day two two hours max of like prospecting which I consider anything that is pre outreach preparing for outreach. Um, and then outreach is the rest of the day. So.
12:00.35
tylerking
Um, so 5 minutes yeah okay cool so yeah
12:02.75
Rick
You know twenty yeah, 5 minutes per um, but but but so so I asked him I said like okay like let's just like actually I go oh crap like this isn't made out but maybe we need to change everything and then I said well well how many conversations are you having? um. Ah, and I said how many how many times are you getting the answer to the like the profiling question which so so we have steps right? like 1 is like get and get a response right? Get a conversation. The second step is find out what their health benefits situation is like whether they offer group health insurance or whether they don't or would they do something in between. And then the third step is like get a meeting right? like get open up an opportunity. So the you know accounts prospected to opened opportunity is um, 46 to 1 which is not good. Ah, but when I said well how many profiles are you getting it turned into 4 to 1 and then I said how many conversations are you having and responses and just 3 to 1 so 33% of the people he reaches out to he gets a conversation with or a response from it's incredible like that's it.
13:03.48
tylerking
Um, is that good or bad. Okay, so he's getting on the phone with people but the the step of convincing them to have a real meet set up a real meeting That's where it's falling through.
13:12.77
Rick
Not only is he getting on the phone with them but like 75% of the time where he gets on the phone with them. He's able to convince them to tell them about their health a bit of a situation and then there's a huge dropoff in terms of like turning that into a next step. So what that highlights is actually that the the outreach messaging and the prospecting process is working.
13:22.83
tylerking
Um, yeah.
13:32.28
Rick
To generate a response or a conversation but our pitch on what they should enter in terms of a sales process is weak and so we shifted our entire focus of the meeting to like pitching. Um and my brain wasn't working but but J's going to be focused on is like keeping the same volume keeping the same scripting but then trying to tweak this messaging.
13:37.20
tylerking
Um, yeah.
13:51.78
Rick
Once they tell you they don't offer benefits like what do you say like and how do you? How do you turn that into a pitch and what we what he realized in reflection is like he's He's actually just spitballing it and not actually making a standard ask at that at that point and so we're going to document that ask um and then he's going to start asking it and we'll see what if this ratio improves.
13:52.52
tylerking
Um, yeah.
14:07.21
tylerking
So most of my growth experience is because less knowing serum is pretty self-service and low acv and so on we're more marketing than sales in the marketing world. You'd a b test you you ab test. Lots of stuff. Is that a common practice here where you're like here are 2 different scripts I want you to alternate or whatever back and forth between each one and then capture the metrics for each 1.
14:31.97
Rick
It absolutely could be a tactic employed um a lot of people I think get caught up in a b testing before they have an a version. Um, and so like in this case, we don't have an a version. So step 1 is put something on paper that you can try.
14:42.61
tylerking
Um, yeah.
14:44.65
Rick
Um, and then you know I'm generally like at this stage like in the volume because you know we've been doing this for a couple months and we're at he he would have had 45 ah attempts at this and if you break that down between group and individual probably more like 20 attempts at this within like the legup benefit realm. Um, that's not really enough to ab test from a volume perspective. Ah so what? I would what I would typically say is like hey write it down stick to it make adjustments in real time based on what's working and basically basically what feels good and I'll I'll check you from a from a standpoint you know like whether this makes sense and then let's just see if it works.
15:18.70
tylerking
That makes sense but my my 1 word of warning there or not that you need warning you know more about about this than me but like when a b testing I think there's 2 types of tests and 1 is like incremental and 1 is like trying a totally different thing and the the analogy I use in my head for this is like if you're. If you think of it as like a mountain the incremental 1 gets you to the top of your current mountain. But it's possible. There's a much bigger mountain somewhere else that you you'll never get to the top of it by tweaking things and I do think it can be helpful to try especially at the very beginning of something try like some totally different. Ideas to just get a sense of which mountain you even want to try to climb.
15:58.38
Rick
I Totally agree with that and um, it's a good. It's a it's a good just so reminder. That's like hey don't try to overengineer the solution at the front like have some get as many like broad ideas as possible See what feels right see as what see if anything works.
16:12.30
tylerking
Yeah, what are people responding to yeah now the the risk with any ah, anything like this this is ah the constant challenge of startups in general is then you're on the risk of like if you don't opt if you don't work hard enough on any 1 idea it's possible. It was a big mountain but your first attempted it sucked.
16:14.55
Rick
Yeah.
16:30.25
tylerking
And it felt like it didn't it's like it's like the classic Mvp problem right? where you're like you build a really shitty product that's not actually viable and you can't sell it and your conclusion is oh, there's not a market for that when in fact, it's like oh there's a market I just had a bad product for the market. Um, so anyway, but that's cool. So.
16:41.57
Rick
Yeah, exactly.
16:46.69
tylerking
It sounds like you don't have results yet, but you feel like you've identified this thing that was maybe holding J D back and and it should be addressable now that you know what it is.
16:52.74
Rick
Yeah, and I don't know if we'll dress it in a week. But I think we're now like we answered the question like is the messaging working and the answer is the messaging that we have is working but we have a huge huge cliff once we have our start talking to people about how to get how to sell them on on being entertained by to to entertain. What we're offering um and it it kind of goes back to what the ebook realization was we don't really know how to like sell someone on leg up benefits like if you if you put me in the room with like the ideal customer. What am I going to say to them in 2 minutes that says I want to talk to Rick again about that.
17:13.72
tylerking
Um, yeah.
17:28.10
tylerking
Um, yeah, because no one wants to spend time on this I imagine Um so okay, cool. Well, it'll be interesting to hear you know it seems like just a matter of time. It's a good offering I think we know that ah there has to be a way.
17:31.79
Rick
Yep.
17:43.71
tylerking
To.
17:43.89
Rick
Yeah, we we don't we have social proof. We have existing customers with people paying us for it. We have people ah who are naturally sort of evolving into it from referrals and just like usage-based like expansion and so it's It's just a question of like how do we get someone in a very short amount of time to have the light bulb moment.
17:58.69
tylerking
This is a a very so there's a lot of parallels between this and what I've been talking about with growth a lessening serum in the in the sense that all almost all the advice out there is for either aspiring entrepreneurs or very very early stage entrepreneurs where the question is.
17:59.68
Rick
Of what we're doing.
18:15.60
tylerking
Is what you have a thing Yes, or no, it's about validating whether it's worth doing. Yeah and so I got this in my head and I think I internalized that way too much where I was going out and doing marketing stuff and and treating it like a.
18:17.20
Rick
Zero zero to 1
18:29.47
tylerking
Do we have something yes or no thing. It's like we're getting 500 new users a month we've got something like I don't need I don't need to be asking validation questions the questions. How do we get more. People is a completely different exercise and even leg up health which is much earlier than less annoying. It still has something You're not validating. Does anyone want this product. Yeah, that's cool. Um, yeah, yeah.
18:50.20
Rick
But I I love to encourage based on those ratios like it's like like the first reaction was like oh crap where this isn't working like we need to change all the messaging is like well let me let's work up the funnel and ah it just speaks to you know the thoughtfulness of how he's approaching this from a systems perspective that he could answer this question so quickly.
19:06.17
tylerking
Yeah, that's great and you know what the I've been on the other side the opposite of that is so discouraging it. It feels like you don't want to find this major bottleneck in your flow. We had the opposite where we hired demand Maven the marketing consultancy to come in and like review our whole marketing approach and put a strategy together for us.
19:08.13
Rick
Um, and it was It was really good.
19:26.15
tylerking
But we were hoping is they're going to come in and be like you're just completely fucking up this one major part if you go fix this everything will take off and you know that's what you want and they came in and they were kind of like you know they gave us ideas and stuff but it kind of felt like at the end of it like actually we were doing most of the stuff we were supposed to be doing that's Worse. It's much worse to find Out. You're not messing something up.
19:46.89
Rick
Like that's such a great reminder. Um, yeah, like when things are really like taking off in a company like lots of things are broken and that's a good thing because it means there's opportunity and ah fixing those things further than what's actually happening.
19:57.45
tylerking
Um.
20:02.77
Rick
It's like when when when growth is slowing down and there's nothing like obviously broken that gets scary.
20:07.66
tylerking
Yeah, yeah, um, cool I thought I might give some ah product updates here. Ah we so over a year ago. We kind of quote unquote launched for version. 4.0 of our product. It's basically just a redesign not not There's a few new features here and there but not a lot changed but when I say we launched it. What I mean is new customers who signed up got the new version. Um, we let old customers opt into the new version but we didn't force anyone over fast forward a year as of today. Actually we will move the very last of our customers. Force them over to 4.0 as you can imagine the people who took a full year to move are the most resistant. So. There's a little bit of friction there but it'll be good to get that just completely behind us. Um, yeah, thank you? Ah, it's it's crazy. It's just a reminder that.
20:57.54
Rick
Congratulations.
21:02.58
tylerking
So most people do like it. The new version literally nothing changed. It just looks nicer. That's all that changed but it doesn't matter what you do people are people are going to complain just reminder for everyone out there. No no I have bright's new versions. Absolutely not when when there's a new version of something.
21:12.40
Rick
Um, you would be that person. Yes.
21:20.57
tylerking
So you're right that I I get annoyed like 1 of my superpowers is getting annoyed by stuff which is a very good quality to have is like a product designer. But I ah I show companies a lot of grace when they change something and I'm generally the first one to opt in and to try it out and to say even though I don't like it yet I'll get used to it.
21:36.16
Rick
Well if they give you the option to opt in that's a different thing but like when I log into Google docs and the entire like like like way that the page works is different and it's a core part of my workflow with that they didn't ask me if I could switch to this. It's not very I don't like it.
21:46.59
tylerking
Um, sure.
21:49.52
tylerking
Sure but okay, a it. We didn't make any changes like that and b we gave them I don't I sorry I I I fast forwarded over a lot of stuff here. We have sent them 2 emails and done about 10 in app popups. Um, over the last year that the app because every feature we've built since we.
21:53.40
Rick
Oh go.
21:58.67
Rick
Yeah, oh okay.
22:09.36
tylerking
Launched it. We only built in the new version. So every time we've yes so every time we launched.
22:11.21
Rick
And did they did they have the option to to opt into it. Okay, so so so basically the people who got force switched were the people who waited to the last minute after a year. Okay.
22:23.53
tylerking
After a year and like two weeks ago we did it. We showed them a popup that was like it's it that you know it's time we've given you a ton of opportunity you can go up in now if you want if you don't in a couple weeks. We are going to automatically do it? Um, but every feature we've launched over the last year we've built a pop up.
22:31.57
Rick
Not go alright.
22:38.80
tylerking
In the old version that says hey we launched this feature if you want it, you need to upgrade. Um, so we got like I think we had 10000 ish users out of 26 that didn't upgrade. Um, which is a lot and so a lot of people opted in but a whole lot of people didn't um.
22:41.59
Rick
M.
22:56.34
tylerking
We moved them all over all ten thousand over this week and it's I think we've got probably 20 or 30 negative emails. So it's like the the people who are mad or at least who are telling us they're mad are a very very small minority of the total group but I don't there's just nothing else. We could have done here. You know.
23:12.55
Rick
Yeah, you did. He did the best you could. Ah I'm going through this with hubspot right now and they they they said that they're doing a new navigation. They put a pop-up to to you know, switch over and I just had that moment I was like they're going to force this on me I need to just do this now. Why I can handle it because if they forced on me when I can't handle it I'll be pissed.
23:24.92
tylerking
Yeah, exactly Well yeah, and that's sorry inventing here that we we say that in the messaging. It's like we're telling you a year in advance so you can wait for like a slow season or whatever.
23:29.71
Rick
And so yeah.
23:38.76
tylerking
And then when we move someone over there like it's the middle of the day I can't believe you did this to me in the middle of the day. It's like you had a year come on. Ah, it's frustrating. But anyway I'm very glad to get it over with um and then we've got a I we've got like just by far the the most exciting.
23:46.32
Rick
I Ah yeah.
23:56.31
tylerking
Upcoming releases ever like I think in the next ah four ish months we're going to launch more than we've ever launched in 2 years probably ah now part of it. We've already like that's not to say we're we're coding it all in the next four months we're already done with a lot of this so it's the work. We've already done but bulk actions which I've been talking about a lot It's been done and ready to go. We're just waiting for four point you don't want to like introduce too much chaos at the same time. So we're getting everyone over to 4.0 then we're launching bulk actions to everybody. Ah, then we have bulk actions on pipelines. So the ability like say I want to take everyone in this lead status and move them to this other lead status or whatever. Um, that'll be a really big one for people automatic email logging should be coming maybe a month after that. Um, which which will be huge ah rich text editing on notes which I you know you might be surprised. We don't have yet but like being able to bold and do bullet lists and stuff like that people are going to love that. And then the form builder I've been talking about should be another month after that. So I think every month for five months we're going to have basically as big of a release as we've ever had like in terms of how it impacts customers.
25:01.82
Rick
Are you doing any launch planning around this stuff and like marketing around it or is it more just like get it out. See what people do and then figure out what to do.
25:11.13
tylerking
Um, good question. So I think they're all kind of different bulk actions were intentionally not launching but we're intentionally not promoting it very much. The reason being it's of all of these if anything's going to like crash our server when people use it. It's that. So we kind of want people to find it and start using it on their own before we do much promotion I should say our normal launch plan for anything. We have a newsletter that about when someone signs up for lessening serum. The first thing they see is a like. Do you like what emails. Do you want to get from us and the big green.
25:27.68
Rick
Um.
25:44.49
tylerking
Or it's not green anymore. But whatever the big button Cta is I want the like yeah give me all the emails and then there's I only want like account help emails or don't give me anything at all about 50% of people say they want everything so about half our customers are on this newsletter that we send out biweekly. That's normally our promotion. Our main promotion is we just mentioned it in the newsletter if it's a really big feature. We'll do a popup in the app or we'll send an email out to people who aren't on the newsletter but that's pretty rare so we will mention all these in the newsletter at the very least. Ah.
26:22.61
tylerking
I Think so the rich text editor you almost don't need to announce it like people are going to enter a note. They're going to see it that that's when you just you don't need to be told about now. Maybe there's still an argument for doing it for like controlling the narrative or something I don't know what? what are your thoughts on that.
26:41.25
Rick
Um I don't know I I I would just do it I feel like watch the shit and like tell everyone about it and like if it breaks a site that's good.
26:44.27
tylerking
Um, do what.
26:51.90
tylerking
Well you know sorry I mean we are launching it and we are telling people about but like how how like it's not free to put a whole marketing campaign together for a um, a new feature like like how specifically what would you do? Well it takes a lot of.
27:03.28
Rick
Um, customer customer marketing is I think free right? like are you talking about like are you talking about like not marketing it to new people like that haven't aren't customers.
27:08.95
tylerking
Takes time. No I'm saying like writing a newsletter takes time we we do that We're definitely mentioning all this in the newsletter but like what else is there like having a thing pop up in their account takes time to code. Um.
27:17.36
Rick
Okay, ah well that you you could have a web you could have a webinar one to many training that's pretty free. Um I mean it's time internally but like they're not going to be any cost to you like.
27:30.39
tylerking
When I say not free I mean time like all of these things take time to do and there's a thousand different ways you could promote I I don't think it's as simple as just do it. You know it's like well what specifically how should one approach this type of thing.
27:34.15
Rick
Time. Okay.
27:44.91
Rick
The things that I would be considering in your position would be some sort of like deep dive session for people who are more interested than others and I would invite everyone ah probably for certain features I would probably you probably have something in mind like ah take um book book. Bulk actions. Um my assumption is there's probably characteristics that you can assess based on account size account Usage. Ah that is like this per this is the ideal sort of user for bulk actions and I would target them with like a more extensive like deep dive one to many still but like you know you you got to teach people how to use the.
28:15.70
tylerking
Um, yeah.
28:19.51
Rick
Product if you want to know if it's valuable or not. You can't just assume they're just going to go find it so that's like that would be like driving usage plays. Um and the cool thing about that is if you don't if you were concerned about overusage you could slim the popular you could you could cap the number of people that you bite to the webinar like you you know? anyway, so you could like. Least make sure that you're announcing it enough sufficiently to drive sufficient usage to test whether it's valuable without you know, maybe like breaking anything um that would be 1 one tactic. Um, yeah.
28:43.90
tylerking
Yeah, well let let me reply to that real quick. So I mean I think that's worth doing in some cases but just to the the point I was making about not being free. Okay, so now like it probably takes at least 10 hours to put a good webinar together I'd say um, but then also you you don't think so.
29:01.83
Rick
Um, well I.
29:03.50
tylerking
I mean I already made a video I already made like a 10 minute video walking through it and demonstrating it. That's already done but like an hour I'm imagining like an hour long deep dive type thing.
29:12.63
Rick
I Don't know that has to be an hour but um I guess Ah what what? I'm assuming is happening is that there's probably already a base level ah effort related to help articles documentation and the knowledge space. Ah.
29:23.22
tylerking
Um, yeah, yeah, we do that stuff.
29:28.70
Rick
You know, assets you know, related to like screenshots. Ah or that's already happening and so this is just about pulling it into a narrative that's like allows people to ask questions.
29:38.56
tylerking
It's happening but like here's an example of what we don't have like we have some ideas of use cases but to to come up with really compelling content especially if it's a long webinar. It's like like we're not going to know the best use cases until our customers use it and tell us what they are. You know.
29:53.26
Rick
So that's where I would flip it I say like that's the most valuable thing you could ride your customers like is how to use the cerm better and so thinking through that is absolutely what you should be doing with every feature is like we're leasing a feature. What are the use cases. How are we going to make sure that our customers connect the dots. Ah. Feature to use cases like whether that's in a webinar or ah email or a video that you're walking through like that is the second most important exercise to relate releasing the feature which is like connect helping users connect the dots on like how they could use. It.
30:22.88
tylerking
Yeah, fair enough I mean I I did my best for the like I recorded the video. Ah, it's like all the use cases I could come up with but we're going to I I hear what you're saying and also the reality is after our customers start using it. We're going to hear about some crazy shit. We never thought of that's going to be really good. Um.
30:36.93
Rick
Um, yeah I guess I guess where I'm getting at here is like um, overthinking about the use cases and trying to make compelling like connections in your customers' brains ah through marketing. Ah.
30:38.54
tylerking
But it.
30:53.82
Rick
It seems like a really good use of time. Yeah, so yeah, we'd said a webinar but like that's where I like I Guess that's the most important like whether you do a webinar or not like I think like exposing.
30:54.13
tylerking
Yeah, so okay, but that's the 10 hours I'm talking about I mean I made up a number. Um.
31:07.26
Rick
Ideas to your customers on how they can get value out of the new feature is like the most important exercise and I don't know like the medium in which you do that doesn't matter. But if you if.
31:10.32
tylerking
Yeah, but so then the other thing though is like then you have to promote the promotion like then Okay, let's say it's a webinar now I'm well I was already going to send an email out about the feature but like how am I getting people aware of the webinar and. I'm not saying this is a bad idea to be clear I'm just saying I think it's very easy for people on the site that and I'm not saying you're doing you do this for a living but people listening. It's very easy to think oh you, you spend all this time building a new feature. Of course you should promote it and it's like it's a ton of fucking work.
31:32.88
Rick
You.
31:42.41
Rick
Yeah, and I guess um, my my what what? I'm realizing and talking to you is like I'm I'm not like dying on the webinar Hill I'm I'm more so dying on the exercise of like figuring out like what your story is around the feature and particularly like use cases being like the primary.
31:58.92
tylerking
Um, yeah.
32:00.90
Rick
Thing that you want your you want your eternal people at all understand like when Their're servicing accounts like you you want ah your marketing team to understand so they can start building content around it long-term you want ah the product and engineering team to understand so that when they're getting you know requests. Ah you know for improvement like they understand the point like.
32:19.74
tylerking
Um, yeah.
32:19.79
Rick
It just seems like that's a really good use of time. Um, and and once you have that like 90% of any promotion activity is done whether that's ah recording a video sending out a newsletter updating help articles ah doing a webinar ah dying on that hill I'm just.
32:35.68
tylerking
Yeah I hear you So I I agree sometimes it is but like I don't think every feature is made equal. So for example, the the rich text formatting which we're calling Wyzzywig what you see is what you get which is like the name for this type of editor. A.
32:37.21
Rick
Like that seems like like what worth the exercise.
32:53.38
tylerking
Use cases you on a bullet list make a bullet list. Um I don't think there's really interesting use cases there and I think people are going to see it I don't I think spending a ton of time thinking is not worth it. Yeah, but.
33:02.99
Rick
Yeah I Don I wouldn't put yeah wysywwick probably not the exact name but the thing I was like having a ah reaction to sort of like where I was like ah is like when you say like I we're only going to release it. We don't want to tell people about it because we're scared gonna break the system. Um.
33:17.40
tylerking
Well no, we're going to tell people about it after we've tested in the live in the wild is what I'm saying um the the main thing we are going to do what you're describing is the of of the things I just mentioned is form builder. Um, that's one where a lot of our customers. Don't use it yet. They might not and like with with bulk actions.
33:19.82
Rick
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
33:34.00
tylerking
People are asking for it. They're demanding it. They know what they need to do with it and if you don't need bulk actions. Don't please don't use it. You're going to mess up all your data. Um automatic email logging is going to be a huge feature. Probably the biggest of all of these in terms of our customers very easy to explain. It's like hey you know how you're manually logging your emails.
33:38.74
Rick
Yeah.
33:52.40
Rick
E.
33:52.50
tylerking
Push this button and you never have to do that again. Um, so we will absolutely promote that to people I don't think we need a webinar deep dive on it. There's literally no settings. It's like authenticate with Google and you're done um, form builder is the one where I think people could either like get it or not get it and they could make a huge impact on usage.
34:08.56
Rick
Totally yeah, the way you just walk through this makes a ton of sense so form like it seems like form builder is the one that like is is so potentially outside of your existing cerm users workflows that it's not just natural adoption. Um, within the within the flow. It's like.
34:11.57
tylerking
It.
34:22.64
tylerking
Um, yeah.
34:26.73
Rick
Oh this actually requires potentially like thinking outside of the existing flow. Um, now that's some customers are already doing this. There's a question of changing their behavior from a different tool to to less knowing cm. But yeah I see your point that seems like the one that I would spend more time thinking about.
34:36.83
tylerking
Yeah, um, okay, cool I'm ah glad to hear that and yeah I think you I always relisten to our episodes I know you are you shared a lot of like here's specific things I would do So I'm going to go listen to that again and pull that in a form builder I do have an update on that which is that so last episode we talked a lot about the form tool and. Like how we're planning on launching and stuff and I've kind of changed my mind a little bit on it. Um, last episode. So Okay I Want to talk about like a dilemma that I think every startup or even every product driven company has which is you want to do a big splashy launch sometimes.
35:15.59
tylerking
But the first version of a thing isn't as good as the second version which isn't as good as a third version and so on the 1 hand you want you want to do the splashy launch so that the first impressions as good as possible, but the reality is most people aren't going to like that first version. And the longer you wait the better The first impression is but you can't wait forever. There's kind of this push and pull between get it into people's hands right? away versus wait for it to become a little more mature I assume you've experienced this many times. Yeah, um, yeah, so last week I kind of so yeah, last week I said.
35:41.22
Rick
Alpha Beta product for prod.
35:49.11
tylerking
Plan is to do a big splashy launch at the same time I was talking about what are the different ways to to you know what are the different Gimmicks We can do to get people to use it at this point I think the best ah the best way to get people to activate is to email them and say we will move your forms over for you send us a link to your forms. We'll recreate them in lessening serum and you you can get the exact same form but it'll s sink it immediately into the serum for you I think that's compelling.
36:17.76
Rick
To sorry is this related to just getting like sort of it out into the wild and people using it or is this related to a launch or like ah like ah like a splash a splashy launch.
36:22.39
tylerking
Yeah, well, um, so the the kpi for us the the main thing we're looking at is the number of submissions we get. Um I think that's the most important metric most submissions are going to come from people who already have forms. That's my hypothesis. Is that a bunch of a bunch of our users don't have any forms at all right now over time we can get them on board and whatever. But like as we've as j d's running into right now as every entrepreneur runs into changing people's behavior is hard. I think the avenue towards getting the most form submissions is to find the people who already have forms who are already getting hundreds or thousands of form submissions per month potentially and saying can you just use our form instead of that one. That's that's my hypothesis and I think the way to get them.
36:57.74
Rick
Um.
37:07.14
Rick
Yep I agree.
37:10.46
tylerking
Is to just be like you don't have to do anything. We're going to do all the work for you. We're going to move it over? Yeah so it's partially learning. It's so a we don't have the bandwidth to do that to all of our customers at once if we email 26000 people with that offer. We're going to get absolutely overwhelmed so the plan is. We're going to launch it. We're going to announce it to people. We're going to tell people about it.
37:12.67
Rick
Yeah, you'll learn a ton from that.
37:30.00
tylerking
But it's not going to be as big and splashy as I was planning because then what we're going to do is email literally every single one of our customers gradually over time and give them this offer. That's the plan right now. Um.
37:39.88
Rick
It's awesome I Love it I Think that's smart. Do you have a target in terms of number of submissions you want to get to is is milestone one that you're going to celebrate.
37:46.96
tylerking
Yeah, you suggested that last time to to have these smaller milestones I think like I think 50000 is the the bigger 50000 form submissions per month is like I'd like to be there a year or two after launching i. I don't really know how to pick the smaller ones aside from just like humans gravitate towards around numbers. So I think what I've what I've said to the team is. It's a thousand ten thousand fifty thousand. Yeah, and I don't think it'll be that hard to get a thousand like one one person who's a heavy form user by themselves.
38:07.45
Rick
Hundred ah hundred
38:12.38
Rick
Thousand is meaningful. Yeah.
38:22.77
tylerking
Might get a thousand per month um now we probably only have a handful of customers like that. But.
38:25.98
Rick
But but you actually don't know like you don't have visibility right now into like the volume of form submissions that to expect because you're not in that workflow Currently okay.
38:36.90
tylerking
I have a little bit so first of all, we use forms I know how many form submissions lessening serum gets to our forms and it's hundreds a month. Um I also have talked to people who run form builder tools and I have reason to believe that the numbers i'm. Saying are not unreasonable. Um I'm not saying I'm not saying ah the idea that we're going to get 1 customer that gets a thousand a month I'm not counting on that but I'm just saying like across 10000 users ah 10000 customers with 26000 users getting a thousand form submissions a month if that's a challenge at all this whole thing's a du and we're going to stop like it's not worth pursuing if it's a challenge to get to a thousand in my opinion. So that's the plan right now I appreciate your you you say to me a lot that I'm good at celebrating things and that you.
39:12.60
Rick
Me.
39:28.59
tylerking
Wish you were better. But I think well at least you're good at reminding me. But I think you're better at the the smaller things I think I'm like let's let's celebrate when we get to you know, $5000000 in revenue or whatever but you kind of need all these smaller. It's it's classic. Innovator's dilemma right? like when you start a new thing like the form builder.
39:38.60
Rick
Ah.
39:47.10
tylerking
It's going to start out so much smaller than lessening serum and it's going to feel insignificant for years compared to the bigger business. But if we want to grow it into a big business. We have to celebrate it at the scale of a startup not at the scale of of what less knowing serum is right now.
40:03.70
Rick
Agreed yeah, well, you'll you'll naturally celebrate like the first submission and people get wo um and then you know when it gets you know 3 digits 2 digits 3 digits 4 digits like those are going to be meaningful milestones but I like I like how you so you position the 1000 is like.
40:07.46
tylerking
Um, yeah.
40:18.74
Rick
If we can't get to a thousand This probably doesn't deserve resources. Um, so that's going to be where we're going to focus on getting by a certain amount of time and then we can reassess at that at that moment if if we want to continue down the road.
40:28.37
tylerking
Yeah, cool. Yeah and I'm ah speaking of celebrating the little things I've got my first 3 customer interviews lined up for Monday of next week so I'll be getting a little I don't know what I'll learn but I'll learn some stuff and and report back.
40:42.83
Rick
Is there are there any of these coming back to the feature marketing and launching stuff. Do you do any remarketing via email to people who did not convert on a free trial.
40:56.51
tylerking
Um, no, basically no we I we have before but in very kind of half asked ways and right now there's not any ongoing effort to do that now.
41:06.14
Rick
And is that sort of brand decision not to do that or is it not having something that you feel like is worthy of interrupting them.
41:15.11
tylerking
Um, it's both. Um, we unfortunately we tell them we will never email you again unless they're on the newsletter if they sign up for the newsletter. They'll get that probably shouldn't do that. No one ever asked for that I think this was us just making life harder than it needs to be but we do say that.
41:31.98
Rick
Do you say that still or can you take that off.
41:32.73
tylerking
Um, I think we can take it I forget I bet we don't actually I would have to check what our and when I say we say it like if they cancel we say that if if they just don't pay at the end of the free trial which is the vast vast majority of people. Um.
41:43.46
Rick
Okay.
41:52.31
tylerking
I haven't looked at the drip emails in a while I should look at what those say.
41:56.60
Rick
Cool. Yeah I'd be interesting to see like if there's an opportunity to look at why people maybe? ah so make assumptions of all they didn't convert on free trial and then tie that back to feature releases as a reason to get them back. Um, and and maybe that's too hard to do. Ah.
42:05.21
tylerking
Um, yeah.
42:12.41
Rick
At at the volume but like it be good. It'd be cool if you said like yes, this feature is going to be loved by our our customers this subset but it's also going to reengage lost free trials or former customers that wanted this feature in the past.
42:26.51
tylerking
Yeah, that's a good idea and like like I'm imagining in my head because I don't want to be annoying. Some companies are too annoying about they're like oh you signed up, you're on our emails forever. Um I don't want to do that. But if it's like 1 year after a person.
42:42.70
tylerking
Like ended their free like didn't pay at the end of a free trial There's just can be 1 email that's like hey here's what happened in the last year does any of this stuff matter to you and also just remind people I think a ton of people who don't pay us at the end of the free trial. It's just because it's the same reason they're not engaging with jd they're busy with other stuff. It's just not the top priority for them. It's not that they didn't like our product necessarily so I do think sending a little reminder once doesn't seem like too annoying to me I think um, yeah to good form builder and automatic email logging are 2 of the main reasons we see when people most people don't cancel a free trial. But if they do and they give a reason.
43:05.26
Rick
I agree.
43:19.96
tylerking
Those are 2 of the big reasons. So there's you're right? There's probably a lot of value to to get there. Um, yeah, good question. Um, yeah, we're still doing talk to sales stuff. Um I don't have a major update here aside from.
43:26.14
Rick
Um, cool What else you got on going on.
43:39.38
tylerking
It's one of those things where like the first version was so good and then you're like like back to the mountain analogy you're like well we're probably nowhere near the peak right now like let's iterate and climb up the mountain nothing we've tried so far has really been better than that first month unfortunately although I think we finally have ah. And a b test that slightly increases the volume of and I guess for people who don't remember just putting a button on the homepage. That's like do you want to talk to sales instead of go sign up for a free trial or like explore it on your own talk to sales. Ah.
44:11.79
tylerking
So we I think we are just gradually tweaking with where do we put the button. What is the button copy say this and that and we are getting better. But I think the dream of like let's have so many of these leads that Alex can't handle them all and that we need to pull in the customer service team. We have not really seen money signs that we're going to be able to get that kind of volume. She's a bummer. Yeah, it's it's a great use of Alex's time and he's going to be the best at it anyway. So it's like I'm still very happy with how it's gone. But yeah, you.
44:34.26
Rick
Baber.
44:43.34
tylerking
When you get a little taste of success. You're like what can this turn into not much more than what we started with it sounds like um what I do want to I want to take a but so back to the the a B test. We've been doing is trying to climb up our current peak I Want to try to find a different peak that's bigger.
44:48.43
Rick
What? what? What do you? What's next.
45:02.88
tylerking
In in particular I Do want to try a homepage that we're still workshopping language but something along the lines of ah every serum company says the exact same Stuff. Don't pay attention to our marketing site. Let us prove it. Talk to us and you'll immediately realize we're different from every other Crm company something like really really pushing the just talk to us because all of this other stuff is marketing bullshit. Basically I don't know if that'll work but I want to give it a shot.
45:31.10
Rick
What is that? Yeah, so okay, how's that different than what you have now.
45:37.80
tylerking
Right now. It's our normal homepage that we've been using for a long time and it's like start a free trial do a like do like demo it yourself talk to sales. Um, so it's like but I'm I'm toying with the main pitch is if if you.
45:43.38
Rick
Umm.
45:54.70
tylerking
It's the moment you talk to us you will immediately understand everything that's different just do that. That's that's the call to action.
45:58.12
Rick
Making talk to sales the number one call to action then startup. So basically you're saying reverse the primary Cta and secondary c ttas.
46:05.67
tylerking
Not just yes, yes that but the the h one the the entire hero section of the website would be centered around and to be clear I don't expect most people to talk to us. But I'm a big believer in a competitive industry like crm. Every saas website says the exact same thing. It's very very like like you have to differentiate yourself somehow and so my hope is by saying I guarantee you the moment you talk to 1 of our people on the phone. It will immediately make sense to you even if no one talks to us on the phone I think that still sends a pretty strong message that we're different That's my hypothesis.
46:41.50
Rick
Yeah, yeah, it's worth to try. Can you do you have? Ah, you're on Hubspot right? or no webflow is it easy to a B test The homepage.
46:46.98
tylerking
No webflow that. Ah we you have to use like a separate tool for it. We have an a b test tool. The problem here is this gets into one like a good a b test. It's like there's 1 clear success metric and like does that go up or down. This is one of those where it's like well maybe we get a lot more talk to sales books but a lot fewer free trials booked. It's a more complicated thing to test and it's not just do they click the button you have to follow it all the way through. Do do they pay so I don't it's going to be a difficult thing to test. But anyway ah I'll keep.
47:15.80
Rick
Um, interesting cool. Yeah I was just I just remembered that you've been posting in the leg up slack Channel about ah refreshed design.
47:18.86
tylerking
Keep given updates. Ah if if things happen there anything else on your mind before we call it here.
47:32.30
Rick
And brain standards for leg up Health and um I don't know if you wanted to chat about that at all.
47:36.30
tylerking
I mean I'll say I I feel tremendous imposter syndrome I'm supposed to be.
47:43.60
Rick
Ah, you're working off, you're working off a template that you know I bought on Webflow Marketplace and a logo that I think I designed that you may be cleaned up a little bit um and did you ever clean up the existing logo for me. Yeah.
47:46.46
tylerking
Um, yeah, so.
47:53.61
tylerking
I mean a little. But yeah, the the context here is like I'm in theory my job for leg up Health is to like build the software product which I did but there's like that's just not the bottleneck right now like growth and stuff is so like I kind of have some design skills but not a lot So I'm yeah I'm working on logos and stuff like that. But.. It's not really my wheelhouse happy to do it. My main thing is I hate the fact that sable is in slack because she's a professional marketer and I bet she's looking at the stuff like what fucking Garbage. But.
48:23.26
Rick
No, she I so actually showed her some stuff. Um and she she know she was actually oh Tyler's good at this stuff. Um, ah and and ah, what she also helped me do is like she she she said that it actually makes a difference.
48:27.31
tylerking
Now All right.
48:36.98
Rick
When it looks like it's not a template. It looks like it's something that's unique to you and so that got me comfortable with some of the edgy version got me more open to some of the edgier versions that you're presenting because as Tyler's you know posting like basically like mood boards to kind of get reactions and ah. Ah, so anyway, it's it's it's been good. Um I like the the work that you're doing in the direction that we're headed um and ah and you know who knows how important all this is but it's fun to to have a refresh and something that we can say this is going to be our brand for a while and now we can build assets around. It.
49:12.39
tylerking
Yeah, for sure. Well I appreciate the ah the words of encouragement I Yeah, the main thing is we don't have a logo at all right now like the logo is text that says leg up Health where one part is bold and one part is not like it's not really a logo I. Ah, maybe this ends up being a full brand refresh. Maybe we just have a little square logo of some type but you know given what the company needs right now I think that's the closest thing I can come to providing Value. So.
49:38.72
Rick
Um, yeah, do you need anything else from here is like the Async conversation sufficient. Okay.
49:43.85
tylerking
That's working well for me. So yeah I'll keep posting weird or not weird but different revisions and eventually we'll get there.
49:50.59
Rick
Ah I love it. But yeah, it's going kind of what I what I took away from this call is ah or this this episode is is just how important it is to like not get focused on 0 to one mentality when we got something that works social proof. This is just ah around like how do we very quick like. We still don't have it a good elevator pitch. Um, which I think is actually does everyone talks about how like important elevator pitch is but does anyone good at an elevator pitch like any like is that is that common to be good at it like because I I feel like I've never had a good elevator pitch.
50:21.15
tylerking
Um, I'm not I think if you're raising money for investors you get good at that elevator pitch if you're if you're cold calling you should get good at that. But like. I've never done any of that for lessen knowing cm so when people are like 30 seconds what's less knowing serum and like it's a crm what else? What are you looking for here. Ah and it doesn't matter because it never comes up.
50:40.36
Rick
Ah, ah yeah I guess like ah the the idea of an elevator pitch is about like making an ask and like getting people to very quickly like give you what you want? Um, and so if you're not doing that then why would you have an elevator pitch and we haven't really done that right like.
50:52.67
tylerking
Um, yeah.
50:58.20
Rick
Ah, we're just now getting to the point where there's a large volume like there's a significant volume of people that JD is having the opportunity to pitch now and it's like which is great. Ah, but it's like oh well, how do we do this.
51:05.98
tylerking
Um.
51:10.28
tylerking
It's a great example of how you you should do things like just in time right? You could have spent to three months back when you started the company putting the elevator pitch together but a you didn't need it yet and b well okay, okay.
51:19.61
Rick
We we basically did we basically did this all last year this is last year like what you're saying is like oh good you got smarter like last year you wasted a whole year on like like like hypothesizing an elevator pitch that clearly we never figured out.
51:29.41
tylerking
Um, okay, well yeah, you did well because until you're talking to customers and and know what you're like I I feel like there's a lot more clarity around what we're actually selling right now. Um.
51:40.93
Rick
But.
51:44.16
tylerking
Yeah, that you you come up with it when you need it and I'm sure you and Jd will find a good thing and I'm sure 3 years from now you'll look back at the one now and say that's not for us. That's not right anymore like it's a temporary elevator pitch probably but all right? yeah.
51:57.76
Rick
Yep, but we'll have one all right? If you'd like to review past topics and show notes visit start blast.com see you next week
52:02.80
tylerking
See you.