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What if your company culture wasn’t just an HR buzzword but the secret weapon to scaling your business?
Welcome to Kan Talk Kulture, the podcast that dives deep into how remarkable company cultures are intentionally built and how they can transform your team, your business, and your bottom line.
Hosted by Kylie Anne Neal, founder of Kan Kulture and a passionate expert in people, culture, and leadership, this show is designed for business owners, CEOs, HR professionals, and anyone who believes that empowered people are the key to long-term success.
Each episode features real conversations with inspiring CEOs, business leaders, and culture champions who share how they’ve shaped their team environments alongside case studies, practical tips, and bold questions that challenge the status quo.
Whether you're looking to boost employee engagement, create a high-performance team, or align your people with your vision, this podcast will help you connect the dots between culture and growth.
At Kan Kulture, we believe in Kindness, Understanding, Learning, Trust, Uniqueness, Respect, and Evolving, and this podcast brings those values to life.
If you're ready to turn your team into your biggest brand ambassadors and create a workplace people love, this is the podcast for you.
Find out more at www.kankulture.com
Hi, I'm Kylie Anne Neal, founder of Kan Kulture, and welcome to Kan Talk Kulture. In this podcast, I sit down with some of Australia's most progressive founders and CEOs to explore the heart of their company cultures, what drives them, what they value, and what it's really like to work for the companies they lead.
You'll also find occasional episodes packed with practical HR insights to help you build s- safer, stronger, and more trusted workplaces. So whether you're a new team member getting to know your workplace, curious about creating remarkable company cultures, or just wanting to know more about implementing HR best practice, you're in the right place.
Let's dive in
Hello, and welcome to the Kan Talk Kulture podcast. I'm Kylie Neal, your host, um, and today I have a very exciting guest with me. This guest has wellness wrapped up to a T, and today we're going to explore what wellness intelligent looks like. I have Angela Lee-Jenkins with me, who is the founder of Wellbeing Changemakers.
Angela, welcome to the podcast.
Amazing. So lovely to be here. Thanks for having me.
It's a pleasure. Yeah. It's a pleasure to have you here. Uh, and we're gonna be talking about wellbeing intelligence. Mm-hmm. Uh, and we, we've had a little bit of a chat before we came on to this episode, and what's really inspiring is that, Angela, I feel that you've got a part of the market that organisations- Don't understand yet.
Mm-hmm.
I feel like over the last five years or so, there's been a lot of progress in the area of wellness, and organisations have really, uh, almost been forced to look at what wellness initiatives are. Mm-hmm. Um, but there's so many factors that kinda come into play. So I'm really excited to be exploring this topic with you.
Yeah, no, it's great, and I think it's such an, you know, important conversation to be having. I think- Yeah ... you know, our wellbeing is foundational to, to everything.
Yes. Yes.
At work and life.
Yes. Yes. Mm-hmm. Absolutely, and that, that... it's, it's kind of one of, one of both, isn't it? That- Yeah, yeah ... that, that work-life separation, it doesn't separate when you're talking about your wellbeing and your wellness.
Yeah.
So Angela, first of all, do you... Just take us through, um, give us a little bit of a snapshot of who Angela Lee-Jenkins is.
Oh, who am I?
Who are
you? Who am I? Um, so my original background was in exercise physiology. I, you know, finished uni, did human movements at UQ, you know, graduated in 1999, and, you know, moved to Sydney, sort of worked in that, you know, corporate, um, exercise physiology space.
Mm-hmm.
Moved over to London, just because that's what you do when you're young and- Yes ... dare to do whatever you want, you go and do that. Um, I lived in London, and again, sort of with that high-profile executive client was typically what I attract, and I ended up getting a contract with the Mattel family, who at the time, I didn't know when I started with them, but they ended up being the third richest family in the world.
Wow.
So I worked with the family there and, you know, learnt lots about wellbeing and how it fits into so many aspects of life.
Mm-hmm.
Moved back to Australia, set up an exercise physiology practice. So I had a business partner, built up a team, and then, like with a lot of people, we have lots of different life changes and went back, um, went back to uni and set up my consultancy and do a lot more so now back in the corporate leadership place, particularly bringing wellbeing as a foundational leadership capability.
So-
Yep ...
I like to think of myself as your wellbeing intelligence partner. So I work with individuals, you know, privately, work with teams, and also organisations, really, you know, bringing wellbeing to the forefront in, in not only what we do, but, but how we live.
Yep.
So that's a- Fantastic ... that's a 101, 30 years right there.
Oh,
fantastic. In a, in a snapshot. In a nut- Thank you. And let, let's, let's define... Well, could you please- Mm ... define for us what well- wellbeing intelligence-
Mm ...
means?
Look, I think with wellbeing in particular, it means different things to different people. So I think it's about, you know, just understanding the different concepts to it, and I look at wellbeing intelligence as being unique.
Mm-hmm.
It's something unique to everyone. Yeah. It's, um, it's relational, and it's contextual, shaped by the environments and everything that we're around. And I like to look at it through a whole person first lens, so physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritual as the person, and we're social creatures. And then look at it through a whole system lens and understand that, you know, it's not just the individual, it's the relationships, it's the workplaces, the community, the policies, the society- Mm
and everything around it that actually influences our wellbeing. So- Yeah ... wellbeing is really multidimensional, and-
Yes ...
I think it's about, you know, being well in all aspects of that. Um, and just understanding that it's that. And I think what that looks like for, for different people is, is different.
Yes.
So, you know, there's different definitions that I, I do tend to lean towards and like in that space, you know, particularly the Harvard, the Harvard flourishing principles and- Mm-hmm ... and things like that- Yeah ... really resonate with me. Yeah. But I, I don't know if there's one, you know, one official definition, but it's just understanding that wellbeing intelligence is all of those areas, and it's how we can, you know, have positive experiences across that.
Yes. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And looking at it, uh, you know, I would kind of naturally look at it in the lens of organisations and how- Mm ... they can create better wellbeing intelligence from an- Mm ... education perspective, but also- Mm ... from an adaptation perspective for individuals that work within a business.
Mm-hmm.
And I think in, in my experience, wellbeing is something that is, uh, actually governed through legislation these days with the whole, uh, psychosocial hazards- Mm
um, you know, with, uh, definitions like organisational justice, which is a psychosocial harm, and, uh, role clarity and job demands. And- Mm ... I know that wellbeing intelligence touches on all of those things, but organisations are often restricted by what budget do we have for wellbeing. Mm. Um, how can we attract, uh, how can we attract new recruits, um, because of the additional benefits?
Um, organisations see wellbeing as an additional benefit. So-
Mm ...
I think the complexity that a lot of organisations that I work with would face when looking at wellbeing intelligence- Mm ... would be the how do we really, um, capture something that makes sense for everybody-
Mm-hmm ...
but that is, like, very uniquely individual?
Yeah. Look, I, I think it's, there's a few parts to that question, and I think, you know, the first bit is we need to stop looking at wellbeing as like it's something extra to the budget- Yes ... and it's like this luxury. Like it's this, "Okay, we're gonna-
Yeah ...
put on this amazing day, and we're gonna do all these things."
Because, you know- We'll have team-building. Yeah. Like, 'cause if we looked at it differently, and
this is what,
you know, a big part of the work that I'm doing is, is looking at wellbeing intelligence as a foundational leadership capability for your leaders. Yes. And, you know, there are budgets for leadership development. There are budgets that we do, and it's looking at, you know, what have we currently got in our, you know, leadership budgets?
And, you know, wellbeing is actually the foundation to that.
Yes.
You know, if we're not showing up well, we can't access- Yes ... the best, you know, the communico- communication course that we've just done. We're not gonna communicate well. Even though we know what to do, we're not gonna show up as that emotionally intelligent version of ourselves.
So I think the first bit is actually- switching our perspective in how we look at it. It's actually a foundational capability that, you know, should be from the very beginning, from onboarding all the way through. So I think there's that component of it. Yes. And when we learn about wellbeing and when we, you know, educate the leaders on that, one of the first principles of wellbeing intelligence is that it's unique to everyone.
Yes.
And it's us understanding that and communicating that, is wellbeing means different things to different people. And, you know, just understanding that concept is really important because there are some people that are happy to take on certain jobs, and they're happy to get up at, you know, 4:00 in the morning, and that works for them because that works into their, their life and their, what they do.
And so having certain rules for certain people, I think it's just understanding the individual and always asking. Mm. I've actually done a lot of epigenetic profiling as well, what actually look, goes into the biology of individuals and actually aligning them to their role. So some people are more-
Right
people in the morning, pe- some people are like more early birds, some people are more night owls. Yes. Different days we have our optimal function. Yes. So sometimes you can actually align, when you go deeper, you can actually align parts of roles so you're actually performing at your best from a biological perspective, and set up an environment around that.
And I think it's understanding that. It's understanding that some people love a chat, and some people love to be around people all the time. Some people are really happy in their office and with the door shut.
Yeah.
You know? Yeah. So it's us understanding different things. And, you know, with job demands, like some people can s- find some jobs really difficult.
Some people find the same job really easy.
Mm.
But it's us having, you know, those different levels of awareness about, you know, as a leader, where is our team at?
Yes.
You know? What have they got going on in their life? How are they showing up? So it's... I don't know if I'm going a little bit off tangent here, but it, I think it's just changing, importantly, changing the perspective of how we look at things.
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And, uh, you, you said, um, I think a, a key word is awareness.
Mm.
Because for people to be able to understand where they best perform-
Mm-hmm ...
it means that they have to slow things down to a pace where they can actually create conscious awareness of-
Yep ...
what they're doing.
Mm.
Like, conscious awareness of the job demands, and instead of just, you know, going towards, you know, completion of OKRs, business initiatives, whatever, whatever their role- Mm
demands of them- Mm-hmm Consciously thinking about where is my wellbeing or wellness in this situation? Where are my personal boundaries to- Mm-hmm ... what I do participate in and what I-
Mm-hmm ...
push back on? Because everyone needs to have boundaries, and I think-
Yep ...
work demands often really impact personal boundaries 'cause, uh, sometimes, in my experience- Yep
personal boundaries aren't respected in a workplace.
Yep.
The demands of the workplace comes first.
And I think it's, you know, understanding, understanding ourselves is the, is the key. So it's obviously having, one, that self-awareness of when to say no, but it's also having little practices and systems built in to catch yourself.
'Cause what I see a lot with people, and I get asked this question in my workshops, is like, "Angela, but I often don't catch myself until I'm really, really stressed." Yeah. "And really, like, it's really affecting me." Yes. And I think, so there's that level of self-awareness that's really important, and having those regular practices and...
But it's also setting up our schedule. Like, I'm very big on micro breaks and setting up our schedule with that, and with resets during the day so we're performing. Yeah. But also as a team, having the check-ins and, you know, checking in on each other. And when the whole team's educated, we can start to see that, you know what, someone's- in a bit of a rough patch here.
Like, how can I step in and just take that bit of a workload, tag-team, or what do you need? Yeah. You know, so we're actually looking out for each other, because wellbeing is hugely complex, and there are so many- Yeah ... different factors that, you know, are at play. And I'm always about, yes, what can the organisation do and what can the individual do?
'Cause it's a, you know, it's a, it's reciprocity, right? It's not like, "Oh, this organisation needs to do this, this, this," in me, but I'm still gonna stay up till 2:00 o'clock in the morning, and I'm gonna, you know, eat Macca's on the way to work, and I'm not gonna do anything to take care of myself. So it's very much about teaching people to take care of their self, but also the organisation is, how can we support our team better so it's not just performing now, and burning out, and having to replace that person.
Mm. It's actually sustainable performance-
Mm ...
over time. Yes. Because we all know that the cost of replacing someone and- Yes ... speed to competency expenses are huge-
Yes ...
as opposed to keeping someone-
Yes ...
you know, in the role. Yeah. And yeah, so it's just sort of teaching different practices for the individual, but also as an organisation, how we do things.
Mm,
mm.
Um... Yeah, it's so interesting. Like, I, I, I think about some of the work that I've created for my clients in performance reviews- Mm ... or in, um, one-on-one templates. Like, I, I have, uh, created performance review process that's very much focused on energy in, energy out. Mm-hmm. Like, what kind of tasks give you energy?
Yeah. What depletes your energy? Mm. How do we understand what those tasks are in either pocket- Yep ... and either amplify the things that give you energy, detract from what doesn't give you energy, if that's, um, if that's achievable within a job- Yep ... function or a job, um, position description. Yep. Um, and I feel like i- through the, the experience of that, some individuals are just so grateful to have that conversation.
Yep.
And for it to be okay, given permission to say, "This
depletes my energy."
Yep.
And if you've, you've got a whole chunk of your role that consistently depletes your energy- Mm ... from a wellness perspective-
Mm
you're not in the right place, you're not in the right role.
Yeah.
But people don't have space to have those conversations. So-
Yeah ...
you know, if companies were educated on, uh, wellbeing and, and wellness better- Mm-hmm
and there was that space allowed for leadership teams to talk about, "This is what wellness looks like for me." Yeah. "This is what wellness looks like for my direct reports." Yeah. In one-on-ones, okay, well, you know, in your, you know, wellness whatever it is, like- Mm-hmm ... the, the wellness plan.
Mm-hmm.
For want of a better word, sorry.
Yeah.
Um, you know, they're, they're able to articulate that to each other and have, um, a much deeper understanding of the actual human function of how they coexist together in a workplace.
Yeah, no, definitely. And I think, you know, what you touched upon was, I guess, job crafting techniques, like f- you know, knowing what depletes our energy, what gives us energy, and things like that are really important for our mental health and wellbeing.
And there's actually- Yes ... even a whole framework called Smart Work Design which has been shown, it's, it's comes under the protect. So there's a thrive at work, um, framework, which is about, you know, res- responding to issues that happen, protecting our team, and then also promoting. So, you know, smart work design, like all the job crafting, looking at our strength, is actually a really great protective mechanism for our team.
And I think, you know, just having those discussions with the team is so crucial because there's someone who loves the thing that depletes your energy. Yes. So, you know, how can we work together or understanding that, look, that is a part of my role that, that depletes my energy. How can I structure that in a way, like, I work with some teams and they go, "Look, I just like to get that bit out the way first-
Yes
and do it." Or we might go, right, you know, time blocking, 'cause often we procrastinate and we think, "Oh, I gotta do that job," and we wasted this time. Whereas, you know, they found, like, you know, doing time blocking and setting, right, I'm gonna set myself, you know, 45 minutes for this block, I'm really gonna focus on this.
And I get people to maybe do a breath reset before they do it, have a little micro break, reset their nervous system, get focused and go in and have that block. Mm-hmm. Now they could've sat there for 45 minutes procrastinating, going around in circles. So it's actually getting people engaged in that. And something I'm about is also the distractions.
Yes.
You know, there's so many distractions that take us away, like, you know, every seven seconds and it takes us, what, 23 minutes to re-engage. And-
Yes ...
some... And all of these things, particularly for females in the workplace, particularly for working moms, which are the highest, you know, level of burnout is- Yes
we've got all these distractions, but how can we re- reduce some of those, reduce the cognitive overload- Yes ... that we're taking in as well, so we can actually focus on doing meaningful work. Yes. And another thing that I- I'm really passionate about as well is, like, people think, "Oh, how am I gonna fit in wellbeing?
It's something else I have to add in. It's something else. We're already stretched." Well, this is the whole thing, right? Is sometimes it's about what- Yeah ... wellbeing is about what we're removing. You know, I'm very much about with the meetings, you know, who needs to be on this meeting? What is the intention of this meeting?
What's the purpose of it?
Mm.
Let's not have back-to-back meetings. They've actually done, Microsoft has done research which shows by having the small breaks between meetings- Yeah ... you know, impacts you by the end of the day. So, you know, being smarter about that and, like, who needs to be in this meeting-
Yes
to move this forward. You know, us- Yes ... thinking that, I think, we're in this habit of just being after meeting, after meeting, after meeting, not getting any meaningful work done. Mm. So who needs to be there? What's the objective of that?
Mm.
And let's be really focused. Let's set ourselves up. And I'm very much, you know, from the exercise physiology background, changing our ph- physiology, 'cause when we change our physiology, we change our psychology, and we're showing up with more presence and intention in a role.
So, you know, I'm very big about doing those type of things too, and also getting people to understand that wellbeing doesn't, you don't necessarily have to go and do a 90-minute yoga class every night or, you know, meditate for an hour in the morning. Like, it's the small things.
Yes.
And it's the small moments that make a difference.
So, you know, I'm very much reset. You can reset your nervous system in 60 to 90 seconds and just get out of that stress sympathetic state. So having those small resets during the day-
Yeah ...
make a big difference. And I always say to someone that, you know, when you're taking off on your day, stress is inevitable.
In fact, stress helps us grow. It gives us- Mm ... challenge. It's how we- Mm ... how we evolve.
Mm.
But it's when it becomes stress plus stress equals distress, but it's stress plus recovery-
Mm ...
equals high performance.
Mm.
So we can have these, like, recover at work micro, micro things, and there's- Yeah ... you know, a lot of research that, um, I think her name's Dr.
Sabine Sonnetag, has done on that, right? So there's all these things that we can just change the way our work practices are. Know that if we get outside for five minutes and have a green break, it changes our mood and reduces our anxiety.
Yeah.
Knowing these things, like some people know this, but-
Yes
they're not doing it.
Yeah. You
know? And it-
And they'll, they'll sit at their desk and have their lunch at their desk.
And, yeah. So it's like, but those things... And it's sort of counterintuitive. People go, "I'm so busy. I've got so much on my plate" and, and I get that, but all the teams that I work with, once they go out and have that break, the level of pro- productivity that comes back in that afternoon block-
Yes
is huge.
Yeah.
So it's, and it's actually supporting each other as a team, you know, like, as a, to call each other out too, and have that culture where, "Go and have your break." Mm. "I'll take this call for you. Let's get it covered, then I'll go have my break." Or, you know- Mm ... make each other, support each other to do it.
I'm working, been working with a workplace for a year, and just the culture change in the head office, like it's a- Yes ... remote fo- workforce as well, but-
Yes ...
they're all go- catching up for go- popping out for walks at lunch break, and they become friends, and that's where they have the debrief and-
Yes ...
you know, they have a little lunch together or they're looking for opportunities.
The remote workforce is looking for, rather than just go straight into the next childcare center, they're looking for, like, a park where they can have a reset or do their emails there so they're in a bit of nature. So once, you know, what you're looking for, you will see.
Yes.
So once it comes into your awareness, you'll see so many more opportunities- Yeah
to bring wellbeing into those small practices.
Yes.
So, yeah.
I w- I was going to ask you about remote working because- Yeah ... you know, it is a, it's a different environment when you're not about, when you're not around your humans.
Yeah.
And you don't have that opportunity of human connection with people that you work with.
And, you know, there's a whole bunch of science for- Yeah ... human connectivity-
Yeah ...
um, and the difference in energy of being in a space with someone than being virtually.
Yeah.
What else have you, what else have you seen from the differences between people that work in an office and those that work remote?
Well, again, I think it's a unique thing, right? So there's a uniqueness in our natural biology about what is better for us. So some pe- while social connection is huge, it's so important for all of us, it's more for some people than other people-
Mm ...
as well. Mm. Mm. So this team that I'm working with, they're, um, trainers and assessors in the childcare sector, and a lot of them were former childcare directors.
So they're used to being around connection all day, and they're used to being around that. So-
Noise and distraction-
Noise and- ...
constantly- Yeah ... with little feet running
around. Exactly. But they're, that's sort of, they're wired for that too. Yeah. You know, so when they move into this force, I think it's just understanding that let's, uh, we don't have that support there, so what are other things that we can do to have that connection?
Mm. So there's certain things they do online with the team, absolutely, but it might be things that they need to put into place outside of that as well. It might be, "I'm missing this in-person connection, so I'm gonna make sure that I catch up with two people a week- Mm ... um, to have that social connection." Or that- Mm
they might get other interests outside of work. So sometimes it's not we, the, it's not the workplace can bring in and automatically bring in all of these things for people. But knowing that we are missing that social connection- Mm ... that does influence our wellbeing, so what are some other things that we can do to support us in different ways?
So- Yeah. And I think, yeah, that's- Yeah ... different. Like, some people have a buddy that they speak to and chat or have a, you know, just fun messages, and it, it is different to in-person.
Yeah.
But it's looking out for those other in-person opportunities too. Because what I see a lot, you know, walking down the street, there's moments all day when we can, we can either have a moment to smile and connect with someone because we've all got mirror neurons, we all have that little moment, we get that oxytocin hit.
Yes.
We can choose to do that-
Yes ...
or we can choose to be walking down the street looking at our phone, not having that. Yes.
Yes.
So there's still lots of human connections. We can talk to the person who gets our coffee, "How was your day today?"
Mm. Mm.
What... You know? So I think it's understanding that, but also, you know, looking for opportunities.
And when I set them up on sort of their coaching tool, they might have a specific thing that they, they're focusing on that. So it's a reminder that they're looking for those opportunities.
Yeah. Yeah. Mm. And so you've been working, let, let's, like, take that as a s-a case study, that team- Mm ... that you've been working with for the past 12 months.
Yeah.
Yeah. What have been the most significant change that you've seen- Mm ... with them working on wellbeing intelligence? Yeah. And have there been any surprises in what the impact has been?
Yeah, look, to be honest, I am just really surprised about how wellbeing's come to the forefront and the changes that a lot of the team have made personally-
Mm-hmm
um, has been huge because a- as a, you know, a lot of these were ex-childcare directors and, you know, yes, they were linked, it- they weren't sort of massively health and fitness, you know, traditional health and fitness type people, but it's just more top of mind, and they're looking for that, and the changes that they're- the choices that they're making are very different and the changes that they're making, so that's huge.
Yeah.
I definitely feel the, just the- mindset, I guess. Like, I definitely feel there's been a shift from, you know, very much into a growth mindset. Like, very much when I'm having the coaching sessions with them, it's shifted into, "Oh, what... Hang on, how can we find a solution?"
Yes.
Because when you're out of that stressed state-
Yes
so when we're in a stressed state, all we tend to see is, like, we're narrow-minded- Yes ... all we tend to see is problems. Yet when we, you know, relax our nervous system a bit, look after ourselves, it actually, we see opportunities more.
Yes.
You know, we widen our lens, and we can see that. So I've certainly-
Barbara Fredrickson- Yes
the broaden and build, that's my-
Yes ...
most favorite- Yes ... psychological theory ever.
Yeah, and it's very much, like, it's expanded. I've seen that hugely from the wellbeing. Um, the turnover, like, there was probably a bit of turnover- Yes ... so that the teams really stayed together, which has been... Obviously, the owners are happy with it going.
It's just the best it's been. Yes. Like, you can feel it. It's just a... You know, we have quarterly team sessions that we do, and I sort of coach the national manager and the area managers, and then we have these growth conversations with the team, where we're all bringing things to the table, and we're all checking in on our wellbeing regularly.
And when you do that- Mm ... it just becomes more top of mind. Mm. It's filtered all the way through, and we're actually- Mm ... the leaders are actually thinking, "Okay, we're gonna roll out this new thing. How is that going?" You know, we're actually asking the question first, "How will that impact the team's wellbeing?"
Before we actually go, "Right, you've got to do this straightaway." It's like, "Okay, this is how we can roll it out." You know, just little things that-
Amazing ...
that make a difference. And having that awareness, um... And sometimes things in chalk, you know, there's a new policy, new legisla- it has to be rolled out, you know, today.
Yes.
You know, ulti- you know, very quickly. Yes. And, but I've done different workshops about thriving through change and understanding- Yes ... the reaction that happens to us- Yes ... when change happens, the physiological threat.
Yes.
And teaching them how to manage that or to look for difference in, or just to have that awareness.
'Cause so many people don't. They just go into, like, threat and, or fear.
Yeah.
Yeah, and how to shift that.
I've d-
Probably wanna do a few different ways
No, no, that's, that's, that's amazing. I mean, it's, uh, it's, it's definitely something that I'm so passionate about. Mm. And what I feel like you have just, um, resolved, and this is probably gonna sound quite controversial to, um, the audience, but because there's been so much focus on mental health in the workplace, and there are- instances, and I'm not, I'm definitely not putting a brush across everybody because there- Mm-hmm
absolutely, um, has been a significant increase in mental health, um- Mm-hmm ... concerns across the workplace and organisations not managing them. But I feel like there has also, in some cases, almost been like a, a weaponising of the change in legislation and focus- Mm-hmm ... on wellbeing and wellness. And I, I s- you know, it's, it's very controversial so please no, no, no hate emails, um, because I'm probably just speaking about a very min- minute few.
Mm-hmm. But I believe that's because organisations don't really understand how to manage wellbeing.
Mm-hmm.
Um, so if someone's performance managed, for example, their, their, the stress rises and, and the burnout and stress is very, very real.
Mm-hmm.
But companies, organisations aren't accommodated with the emotional, uh, call it intelligence to be able to say, "Okay, let me unpack that situation from a- Mm-hmm
psychological perspective or- Mm-hmm ... from a wellbeing perspective." Mm-hmm. It's more just kind of like, "Okay, well, what process do we follow- Mm ... to make sure that we can, um, navigate this to create minimal risk of," you know- Mm ... if they get terminated, for example, fair work. Yeah. So that's looking at it from a very, you know, kind of- Mm
technical HR perspective. Mm. Um, but, uh, what, what I, what I'm getting to with saying all of this is- Yeah ... the work that you do and if an organisation were to focus on wellbeing intelligence proactively-
Mm-hmm ...
that's a resolve to any individual, um, or organisation with the perception of that weaponising mental health within the workplace.
Mm. Because it does mean that you are looking at that from a primary focus.
Mm.
So it takes wellbeing from the background, brings it to the front. So if you're looking at it proactively, the, the negative stigma to mental health and the negati- Mm ... the, the, um, confusion around what wellbeing looks like and the confusion around what the, um, what causes psychological harm and what the psychosocial hazards are.
Yeah.
It all makes sense if you're starting with wellbeing intelligence.
As a foundation.
As a foundation.
Yeah, absolutely. And yeah,
there's
a-
Yeah. Wow ...
yeah, there's a bit to that, too, is like- I s- I talk about this intelligence stack, and I actually came across it by Jen Fisher, and Jen Fisher w- worked at Deloitte for 23 years, and she was the chief wellbeing officer.
And she talks about the intelligence stack having wellbeing intelligence as the foundation because you need that foundation to access your emotional intelligence, and then you need to be able to create that safety emotional intelligence as a leader to be a- and then your human intelligence, accessing that.
And then AI, artificial intelligence, what we're amplifying. And she talks about, you know, unless we don't have that foundation, you know, what are we amplifying? It's just a faster track to burnout. Yes. And on what you said before about, you know, I do think that's probably a little bit not answer to that question.
But- ... in terms of the weaponizing, I think in, with all policies, I think there's always gonna be some people that take advantage of it and weaponize it and don't use it for the right reason. Yes. There's always that small number. Yes. And that's unfortunate.
Yes.
And, but on the whole, I think it's just so important, and I think it's looking at, you know, when we talk about mental health, and I do talks on this, I say, "You know, what's the first thing that comes to mind when I say mental health?"
And most people put their hand up and go anxiety, depression- Mm ... um, suicide. Mm. You know, that's what people say.
Mm.
But that's mental ill-health.
Yes.
Mental health is calm, clarity, you know, performance. So it's actually shifting-
Yes ...
the stigma about that, and that's where I went to a lot of summits with the Queensland Government and Prevention United, and that's why they brought in the term wellbeing because there was so much stigma associated with mental health.
Mm. Although mental health is good. It's mental ill-health.
Yes.
So, you know, the focus is being shifted more to wellbeing. Yes. And I think it's just understanding, you know, that wellbeing is something that we all ha- I actually think it's a thing that brings cultures together because it's something that we all have to work on, and that's what I learned when I worked with that third richest family in the world.
It's a leveller. You know, we've all gotta do our wellbeing. Yes. We all need to take care of ourselves. Yes. You know? I think it's really important. Yes. And I think it's a, it's something we can bring people together and share, that we're all different, and you know, understanding that, you know, yes, there's the wellness component, the, you know, the exercise, the eating well, the sleep, and you know, all of those things, feeling good, but life doesn't always feel good.
Mm. And it's understanding that wellbeing has deeper meanings, you know, linked to, you know, our character, doing the hard things when it's really, doing the right thing when it's really hard.
Yeah.
You know, understanding that wellbeing is connected to our purpose and meaning.
Yes.
You know, and our life satisfaction, and- Yes
understanding that's, it's deeper than that. And- Yes ... you know, for us all to understand that, you know, it's different for everyone, and all of these factors make it up.
Mm.
But when it is brought to the forefront, I think we look out for each other, and I think, you know, I have a, quite an optimistic personality, that most people, I think, are doing the best thing with what they've got.
So it's a con- term I come across called compassionate latitude, is that, you know, understanding that someone may not be showing up at the best version of themselves. Mm. And yes, they may need performance review.
Mm.
But are they showing up like that because- Because ... they don't want to, or is it the underlying stress of their nervous system?
Is it, are they in- Yes ... are they in fight or flight, and they're just overreacting? Are they, have they- Yes ... gone into, um, freeze, where they've shut down? Yes. Are they really disengaged, or is- Yes ... their nervous system?
Yes.
You know, are they in that form, that people pleasing and, you know? So I think it's like it's bo- I don't think it's one or the other.
Yes.
But I feel sometimes if we can have... I always talk about nervous system literacy as a new leadership literacy, little terms that I use. But if we, if we do understand that and bring that forward, we're actually supporting these people, like you said earlier, before they may need to go onto these reviews.
Yes.
Or whilst they're on the performance review, let's delve deeper, and let's support them with some of those aspects as well-
Mm ...
because they're huge.
Yeah. And it is, it, it's, it's such a, a, a beautiful point that I want to, like, revisit from what you had just said, is that explanation that mental health is actually health.
Yeah.
It's a
great
thing. It's not ill- illness. Yeah. And we, you know, I think we do, um- Probably wi- without that wisdom and without really pointing that out, we do quite naturally default because of the way that we're socialised in workplaces- Yeah ... to go, "Well, mental health means mental ill health."
Yeah.
It, it doesn't mean having clarity.
It doesn't mean focus. It doesn't mean being able to, uh, productively and effectively work in that, uh, really engaged state. Yeah. Um, and I d- I did a podcast a few episodes ago about, um- about AI, and, uh, I, I don't... You know, there, there's a lot of talk about HR, uh, about AI, so I don't, I don't wanna harp on this too much, but- Mm-hmm
you know, the, if you look at it, people's ability to problem-solve and think critically-
Mm-hmm ...
because they're outsourcing it to AI, they don't get that dopamine hit of- Mm-hmm ... I actually feel proud of myself because I navigated through that particular scenario.
Yeah.
Um, so from a mental health perspective, ov- over a period of time, if they're not enabling themselves to make them feel good because they're put- putting prompts into a computer- Yeah
that has a significant impact on our mental health-
Oh ...
and wellbeing.
I think we're going to... You know, I think there's gonna be a lot of displacement, a lot of changes is... I think it's hugely gonna affect us. I think we're going into an unknown territory. Mm. And that's why I think wellbeing is even more important- Yes
as we go into this period, because it's understanding that we do need the dopamine. We do need- Yes ... those small goals to achieve in our day. Yes. Like, we do need some purpose and meaning, and if we're losing it by not going through those processes, then, you know, which may happen with an organization that may be offloaded, but- Yeah
we need to find it somewhere else- Yes ... for our wellbeing and understanding that. Mm. And on your point about the mental ill health and, um, health, something that has been brought in more recently, but it's still sort of getting... it's still quite new, is the dual continuum model of mental health and wellbeing.
And why I like that with organizations educating, 'cause people just think that you're either mentally ill or you're mentally healthy.
Yeah.
One or the other. You've got a diagnosis or you're not, right?
Yeah,
yeah. But what the dual continuum model does is that you can have high wellbeing and low wellbeing, like, across the continuum.
So for example, you can have, um, no mental ill health, so mental health side, but your wellbeing can still be quite low. Yes. And that's when people are in that languishing phase. Yes. And that's where we wanna catch them- Yes ... before it becomes mental ill health. But also, on the flip side, there can be people who have mental ill health, who have a diagnosed condition, but when they manage themselves really well and take care of themselves, they can still operate with high wellbeing.
So it doesn't mean that that person can't have high wellbeing, and it's also understanding this whole thing is fluid. Yes. It's not like all of a sudden, like, "I'm a high wellbeing. I work in wellbeing," "... so I'm, I've got high wellbeing every single day."
Yes.
Well, no. Yeah. I have days when things are really hard.
Yeah. And my- I feel my low be- w- my wellbeing is low.
Yeah.
And I have to manage a lot. So it's understanding that it's okay to not be okay some days, you know? Yes. But- Yeah ... it's how we s- it's how we look after it so we don't stay there for too long and shift out of it- Mm,
mm ...
and looking out for each other- Mm
in that way. Um-
Yeah. I think, uh, uh, I- The sense of overwhelm.
Mm-hmm. I
mean, I, I feel like, b- b- and I'm, I'm speaking for some of the clients that I work with from a HR perspective, but it is the, you know, priority on priority on priority. And the expectations. Mm-hmm. Um, and organisations are like, "Okay, well, we'll throw some AI tools in, therefore they can be more effective."
And we don't know what jobs are gonna go away, so that creates, like, massive instability across- Mm-hmm ... every single industry ever. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. The- there's not that, uh, education and understanding that overwhelm as well can be a temporary state
Yeah, exactly. And it's okay to feel overwhelmed. Like, I think sometimes- Yes
we're really hard on ourselves and- Yes ... really judge ourselves. It's like, you know, it's okay to feel overwhelmed.
Yeah
But also know that we can shift that overwhelm. I just get people, uh, my physiology back, just get up and move.
Yes.
Get up and move, do the breath. Yeah You can change that state- It's a, it's a s-
by shifting your position ...
it's a signal.
Yeah. It's teaching us something, that this is what we need, and okay, break it down. Like, what do we need to do? Like, we can emotionally cope by doing the breathing and the moving, and then we can break it down with the problem-solving coping. We can- Yes ... you know, put little small things in chunks and so we can master it and-
Yeah
you know, it's okay- Mm ... to work through that, or we might talk to someone. So there's different strategies, and yeah, and it's not identif- I'm very much about not identifying with that either. Just go, "I'm f- " You might be feeling overwhelmed at the moment, but you're not an overwhelmed person.
Yes.
You know? I think people- Yes
put themselves in a category sometimes, and they get attached- I
am overwhelmed- They- ... rather than I feel overwhelmed
Yeah, because- Yeah ... you're not that. Yes. You know? You're absolutely this amazing person. Yes. So it's just little shifts like that, I think, to understand- Yeah ... for people, and yeah, and particularly when we're going through behavior change processes, that's...
'Cause that's what I see, right? I, I feel that, you know, there's some organizations that bring in these great things, like great, great ideas, great concepts, but it's about getting people to, to make the change.
Yes.
You know? And-
Yeah ...
change requires energy. Yeah. And often when people are really under the pump and they're quite stressed, they don't have the energy for change.
So sometimes the first level is, you know, actually working on their nervous system and calming them down so they can see what could be possible in the next steps. Because sometimes something's right in front of them, they just can't see it.
Yes.
But you see it when you get out of that state, and you know, I think it's understanding that with change and, you know, the small principles of behavior change, and understanding those processes when we are bringing in things, and I don't think people gr- grasp that as well.
I think there's a lot more we can understand about behavior change, and also different-
Yes ...
people's response to behavior change. Some people take more time than others, or some people can adapt really quickly. That's their biology, that's their nature.
Yeah. You know?
Mm. Yeah.
But I think organizations do just, like, you know, it's, we, we have to work, like, so fast-paced at the moment.
Mm. Like, it's absolutely ridiculous. Mm. And, you know, the, the organizations, like, uh, uh, um, throw economics in there as well, like- Mm ... businesses are struggling. Yeah. You know? There, there's a lot of struggle in businesses- Mm ... particularly at the moment. So the, the understanding and the education for them to actually acknowledge- We've gotta slow down Mm
we've gotta reflect on how that piece of work went at the end of it Mm. We've gotta reflect, we've gotta reflect on, you know, how Angela's feeling when she- Mm ... shows up at work today, because that's gonna have a significant impact- Mm ... if we do that consistently. Yeah. Um, so I do feel there's a lot of, a lot of work to be done- Mm-hmm
in the area. Mm-hmm. I do think that, um, you know, again, with legislati- slative changes, it's always good to have some legislation changes that actually puts the spotlight-
Yep ...
on it, because organisations need to focus on it.
Yeah.
Um, as organisations, you know, introduce AI, they need to focus on it- Mm-hmm ... and they need beautiful people like you to be able to, um, instill your wisdom and help them understand how to navigate what that looks like-
Yeah
in their businesses.
And I, I don't think it's easy either. Like, I don't think- No ... it's easy. I don't think there's one s- solution. There's not one size fits all. All I think it's, you know, it's about bringing it to the forefront. Get- the leadership team have to be on board. If the leadership team are not on board, the wellbeing is not gonna work in the organisation.
Yeah. And the things that I see most successful as well is sometimes the organisations, you know, they might think, "I've got to get this really big policy. We've got all the bells and whistles. We've got all these things that we're gonna do," but can't live up to it. So-
Yes.
Yes ... often it's better to bring in something really small that you work in with your team, and actually- Do that.
Mm.
You know? Mm-hmm. 'Cause that will foster and grow more. Mm. Actually do what we say we're gonna do.
Mm.
You know? Mm-hmm. If, if this is where we're gonna start, this is what w- this is where we're gonna start. Doesn't have to be this massive thing. Yeah. And let's see how that goes, and it might ch- Yeah ... change and evolve.
We get the team involved. What- Yeah ... you know, how's it all working? What, what works for you? And-
Mm.
You know? Mm-hmm. But it's really important, like, the leaders have to be on board. Yes. And not just mandating. Like, I'm very big- Yes ... on this too. It's about what they model.
Yes.
Don't say, "Go and have your lunch break," and then you're sitting there like this, and you're doing emails at, you know, all through the day.
Like, whatever. Like, it's what they model, 'cause then people feel safe to be able to do that.
I was having a, a, a conversation, uh, the other day about cognitive dissonance in the workplace.
Yep.
And leaders saying what they do and doing what they say.
Yep.
And how, you know, again, I think it comes down to pace of work these days.
Mm-hmm. But they're... It's n- sometimes not intentional that they're not doing what they say.
Yeah.
And they're, they're, they don't understand that what they're role modeling is actually not what they would like their team to role model back to them.
Yeah. It's not an in- uh, in- I agree, it's not an intentional thing.
Mm. It's a survival instinct. Yes. It's, y- you know, we- ... we go into doing that. You know? Yes. It's just we have gotta get stuff done. And I, it, it is counterintuitive- Mm ... to have the break or to have the reset, but it's understanding that you're actually not doing nothing in that break. Yes. You're actually low- lowering your cortisol, you're getting a clearer mind, you're gonna come back with a lot more focus and energy and m- be more productive.
But it's hard to think like that when there's all the work coming in.
Yeah.
But also, you know, the organization has to think, you know- Have a break before they're handing over the, all this work too. Mm. And actually thinking, "What is their capacity? Where is the team at?"
Yes.
So it does go both ways, but-
Yes
you know, businesses are businesses, you know? They've gotta make money. Mm. It's not about-
Mm.
You know? Mm. So I, I understand both sides. Mm. And it's just, I think it's all in this together, you know? Mm. I always talk about one of my things is wellbeing is everybody's business. It's not the- Yes ... boss's business.
It's not the organisation, not yours, it's everyone's.
Mm.
And I teach that in a lot of the practices, and I get people doing little post-its, and it's like, "What's my role? Where can I influence?"
Yes.
So it's, that you might have someone in your team who wants to, you know, take a, a little walking group in the morning, or you might have someone who's got experience in a particular area, or in your, you're in a leadership position, you can make different decisions about the work structure.
So I'm in a position here, like, what, how can I, you know, make some change? You know? So actually saying we're all in this together, not waiting for-
Yes ...
one, it's not just one person's thing.
Mm.
You know? Mm. And I think when we start to think like that, it actually brings- Mm ... the team together more too. I worked with a, um, a group, a big childcare group, and I work with them North Queensland.
I went up to North Queensland and worked with 16 directors, so 16 centers across there, um, over a six-month period. And the changes that were made at the childcare centers were all so different because they were all so unique-
Mm ...
to the thing. But they brought in the principals, and I just loved it that they were all stepping in.
Yes.
You know? They all stepped in to bring something. You know, once the director went back, the team members stepped in and they all contributed. And I think, yeah, it just was really heartwarming to, to see that as well. Yeah. You know? And when the leader went back and made some changes, just the ripple effect that that hap- that, what happened within their team as well.
Yes.
You know? Yeah. From physical wellbeing, to having breaks, to opening up about things, you know- Yes ... talking about stuff. Yes. Ah, yeah
There's so, there's so much to talk about. Yeah There is so much to talk about. There is so
much to talk about I'm worried of going on to... Like, you're getting me excited about answering something.
I don't know if I'm answering a question. I think I'm sort of going down- No ... too many rabbit holes.
It's totally fine. Uh-huh. Um, but, um, there is, there is so much to talk about, Angela. It's a topic that is, uh, that I'm really passionate about, you know? Mm-hmm. I think I, I, I go quite deep in psychosomatic practices and how we physically show up and- Mm-hmm
nervous system regulation. Like there is- Yeah ... there is... I, I could sit here and talk to you for, for absolute hours. Um, but I do, be- be- before we finish up, I do just want to touch on, um, this beautiful book that you've written. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, it's, it's called, Uh, Will: 104 Days of My Son's Life, so will to live.
Mm-hmm.
So do you just wanna take a, take a moment to tell us about what Will to Live, what the book is, and what it means to you?
Um, I guess it's quite a personal story, and it was written... You know, I went through a very difficult period, so in 2015, I had my son. Uh, my waters broke at 15 weeks. I was in Mexico.
Fast-forward, I was on bed rest for three months, and my son was born at 104 d- um, was born at 27 weeks and was in the intensive care unit. He lived for 104 days and passed away, and it was just one of the most horrible, traumatic moments that... And I know a lot of listeners have had those difficult times.
Mm. And I just share that to know that, you know, we do have these difficult times, and life isn't always good.
Yes.
You know? And, you know, all the... You know, yes, I did breathwork and meditation and gratitude journals. I was doing all of that before this happened, but sometimes life isn't good.
Yes.
And I, I had to go through that pain, and it, I, a year later, I ended up having my daughter live.
And I was always gonna name my children that, and it wasn't until working with a mentor I understand, oh my goodness, will to live. It was like will to live. Oh my goodness, we all have a will to live. Like will and live are both nouns, but they're also verbs. Yes. In that anyone has a will to live and get through some really tough, difficult times.
Yeah.
You know? And I know that there's a lot of people, particularly at the moment, going through really challenging times. And in the intensive care unit with Will, what I really learnt was it was the most horrible traumatic period, but also-
Mm ...
it was the most beautiful, loving, present time, and we can always find those moments.
And, and then I also realized that the will to live can be in any moment. We can choose right now to have a glass of water instead of me having my other coffee here, or I can choose to smile at Kylie and have that feeling. I can choose to have a moment of thinking, you know, great, how, how grateful I am or how lucky I am.
We can shift to do that. I can get up and go for a walk after this, or I can sit and put my feet up on the couch. Like, we have choices.
Yes.
And we can make those little choices to what's meaningful and fulfilling for us. And what I really realized, that book for me, it h- it's... and this mission and this framework, Will to Live, it's helped give me meaning.
You know, and finding meaning- during difficult times really helps us stay connected to life, and finding that meaning and purpose was a huge part for my wellbeing, actually writing that. I actually wrote it six years ago, and it sat there, 'cause it was just part of the process of, you know, getting it out, and I didn't wanna forget things that happened.
I'm thinking, "I don't wanna forget things that happened in Will's life." I was starting to forget things, and I was like... So I started writing it like that, and then it become a book, and then it just sits there.
Mm. '
Cause it's quite, you know, it's scary. It's like, "Oh my God, what am I gonna do? Am I gonna get out?"
And he would've- Yeah ... been 10 last year, and I just felt this overwhelming, "I've gotta get it out." And I got it out, and there it is, and it's... I guess it's sort of the story. It's sort of my why behind my work, that-
Yes ...
that we all have this will to live and in any moment, you know? And, and sort of... That's sort of what I talk about.
You know, we've all got our why and our meaning to our work, and that's mine.
Mm.
Um- Yeah ... so yeah, that's the book, and the Will to Live framework is, like, wake, intend, love, live. You know- Yeah ... can life be that simple?
Yeah. Exa- exactly, right? I know. We, we talk about complexity and frameworks- Yeah ... the need to do that, but that is- Yeah
something that, you know, our sense of purpose, like it, it is pretty simple. Mm. Yeah. If we can just fi- find the words in our vocabulary to be able to articulate what it is, but it, it's that sense of feeling and- Mm ... you know, that's obviously, that's so deeply personal to you. Mm-hmm. But everyone has their deep sense of purpose.
Yep.
And to be able to, you know, with the wellbeing intelligence, to be able to bring that to the forefront and allow everybody to see that magic of what their deep, intimate purpose is, is something that's really, really powerful.
Yeah, and we all have it, and I just think particularly as we navigate this changing time, it's...
I think it's gonna be a real opportunity for us to access that, because I feel the world- Yes ... is going to need-
Yes ...
all of us to be sharing our gifts and our purpose-
Yes ...
and looking out for each other, and yeah.
Yeah, yeah. Beautiful.
Cool.
Oh, beautiful. Well, thank you so much for joining me today, Angela.
There is, there is so much more we could s- we honestly sit here for hours. I
know, it's gone quick. I was like, my daughter's outside. I was like, "Oh, my goodness, what time is it?"
But- Yeah. Thank you very much- Yes ... for coming in, and, you know, for, for anybody that's, uh, listening, if you would like to get in touch with Angela, it's Angela Lee Jenkins.
Uh, you can find her on LinkedIn, or you're welcome to contact me, um, through my website at kanculture.com, and I'm happy to connect you through. But thank you so much for joining me.
Oh.
Thank you everyone for listening today's episode, um, and like or subscribe, whichever, whichever platform you're listening to.
And I really encourage you, if- This conversation is quite deep and quite personal and very purposeful, and it's c- a conversation that needs to be raised at every organisation. So if you're a leader and you haven't had a conversation like this with your team, but you are listening, going, "Yes, that's what I need.
That's what I need to bring to my workplace. That's what I need to bring to my team. That's what I need to bring to myself," I really, really, really encourage you to raise it in your organisation. Have the conversations that need to be had, um, and do it unapologetically. Like, give, give yourself actual permission to step in to help your wellbeing and your wellness and your team's wellness.
So thank you again, and we'll see you in the next episode.
Thanks for joining me on KanTalk
Culture. I'm Kylie Anne Neal. I hope today's episode gave you a clearer view into the values driving your workplace or sparked new ideas about building a remarkable company culture. If you're a founder or CEO interested in sharing your culture story or if you're looking to build a safer, stronger, and more trusted workplace, let's connect.
Visit kankulture.com. That's K-A-N-K-U-L-T-U-R-E.com to learn more. Please hit that subscribe button to hear more real conversations with founders and CEOs and hands-on episodes full of people first culture advice. I look forward to connecting with you on our next episode