The Ripple Effect

In this episode of Learning in Action, host Brian Benjamin speaks with John Lounds, Wren Montgomery, and Sean Drygas about purpose-driven leadership—what it really means to lead with intent, integrity, and persistence. Through stories from business, sustainability, and academia, they explore how purpose can shape culture, guide decision-making, and sustain momentum over time. Featuring insights on authenticity, community, and long-term impact, The Ripple Effect is a conversation about leading change that lasts.

What is Ivey Executive Education Presents: Learning In Action?

Hosted by Ivey Executive Education, Learning in Action explores current topics in leadership and organizations. In this podcasting series, we invite our world-class faculty and a variety of industry experts to deliver insights from the latest research in leadership, examine areas of disruption and growth, and discuss how leaders can shape their organizations for success. 
To learn more about Ivey Executive Education and the services we offer, visit us at https://www.ivey.uwo.ca/executive-education/.

WREN MONTGOMERY: --activism
or making change or having

purpose--

I think could be any of those--
to thinking of being in a choir.

So you do get tired.

So have this collective
voice trying to make change.

Each of us do get tired, need to
take a break, need to check in.

But the movement continues on,
or that change continues on.

And then you can jump back in
when you're more energized.

And other people can
take a little detour

or have a break or
whatever they need.

NARRATOR: Welcome to
Learning in Action,

where we explore research,
ideas, and advice to help

you lead and grow in business.

In this episode,
we're exploring what

happens when leadership is
anchored in purpose, not

as a slogan but as a strategy.

We're talking about
the kind of leadership

that shapes culture,
influences systems, and drives

long-term results.

This is The Ripple
Effect, a conversation

about the real impact that
purpose-driven leaders can

have across their
organizations and beyond.

Whether you're guiding
teams through change

or reshaping your
company's direction,

this episode offers
ideas worth carrying

into your next big decision.

Let's get into it.

HOST: John is currently the
director of business development

at the Centre for
Land Conservation,

having recently retired as
president and CEO of the Nature

Conservancy of Canada, NCC.

In more than two
decades of leadership,

John oversaw remarkable
growth in NCC's programs,

conservation projects,
funding, and impact,

leading to the conservation of
more than 14 million hectares.

John is an advocate for growing
the community-based private land

and conservation movement
and creating solutions

that will change our trajectory
to a nature-positive future

for generations to come.

Terrific to have you here, John.

Second, we're joined by Wren
Montgomery, associate professor

here at Ivey Business
School within the management

and sustainability group.

Wren is a prolific researcher--

we will touch on a
few of the areas--

so everything from firm
environmental communications,

has been pivotal in defining
greenwashing and its tactics

and informing
strategies to stop it.

As an adept management
consultant and senior government

policy analyst, she eagerly
partners with organizations,

entrepreneurs, as
well as students

passionate about
integrating change.

Sean Drygas is the VP of
sustainability and strategy

as well as performance
at RBC, where

he helps the bank
embed its purpose

framework into its strategies
for clients, communities,

and employees.

In his career, he has
held several roles

focused on increasing
environmental sustainability

as an organizational practice.

And Sean was named to
Canada's Clean 50 for 2022,

as one of Canada's
leaders in sustainability.

Sean is also an Ivey alum,
having graduated in the early

'90s from the Ivey HBA program.

I actually really want to dig
in and maybe get a little bit

personal here in terms of
what drew you into this space.

So we're going to
go to you, John,

first and get your voice
into the conversation.

JOHN LOUNDS: I grew
up a long time ago.

During that time, there were
some big environmental problems

that were headlines.

I mean, there still
are today, but back

then, DDT, the Cuyahoga
River in Cleveland

caught on fire, Love Canal
with all the terrible chemicals

that were causing all
sorts of problems.

I guess that really gave
me impetus to try and--

how can I do good?

How can I create a
better world here?

I was very good at math
and computer science,

but I didn't go there.

I ended up with the urban
and regional planning.

I thought, OK,
we're going to solve

all these problems of
the world and figure out

how to make that all happen.

I always wanted to do
more, better, faster,

think outside the box, find new
creative solutions to things.

But in university,
I ended up more

on the edge of what
was going on rather

than the core work of
working in a planning office.

And in the early 1980s, from
an economic point of view,

it was a terrible
time to graduate with

my master's in environmental
studies and get a job,

especially when
inflation was at 17%.

Very different times from today,
but challenging today as well.

So what did I do?

I taught English
in Japan for a year

and then came back
and ended up working

with the government of Ontario.

I had worked with the government
of Ontario on hydro issues,

ended up working for the
Ontario Ministry of Energy

in energy conservation,
then the Women's Directorate

on pay equity.

Then I finally got my
real job in government,

working for Treasury Board
and Management Board,

and then left that to work
with the Ontario Round Table

on Environment and Economy.

Then the job at Ontario Nature--
it was the Federation of Ontario

Naturalists-- came up at the
time, a nonprofit organization.

I worried about it, and then
I took the $20,000 pay cut,

and I went for it.

And it's been the
best thing I ever did.

It was taking that
chance and going forward

with a nonprofit
organization, and it's

worked out very well for me.

HOST: I'm going to bring
Wren into the conversation.

Let's talk about a
little bit of what

sparked you to pursue
this as a path.

WREN MONTGOMERY: I
think John and I might

be twins separated at birth.

I also taught English in
Japan, had some similar career

trajectories.

My mother was a journalist and
a little bit of an activist.

And my father was
a conservationist,

worked in the provincial
park system, managing parks,

setting up some
of our big parks.

And so I'm sort of the
perfect marriage of the two.

[LAUGHS]

I came by a lot of what I do
right now, fairly honestly--

took some environmental
economics classes

at McGill, started dabbling a
degree in economics and poli

sci, getting my feet wet
on the environmental side

but also with some of the theory
to back things up as well,

which was great.

Went off and taught English
in Japan, in Kyoto, for a year

and then came back, worked
in policy for a little bit,

worked in the
financial industry,

actually, as well, trading some
fun things as the stock market

bubble burst.

So that was a great experience.

But yeah, eventually decided
to go back to do a PhD.

So a little bit later, after
a couple of different career

trajectories, and
it was a great fit.

Really loved it in many ways.

It allowed me to bring a bunch
of different interests together.

But I think the more I dug
into what companies were doing,

both in the financial industry
and then through my research--

and I was somebody, like
many of us who are probably

on this call, who tried to put
my money where my values were

and buy green products,
fair trade products,

and then finding out
what was actually

going on behind the scenes.

And the hypocrisy
really bothered

me, which is
something I'm starting

to learn more and more
bothers a lot of people.

It's not just me.

So I started to dig into
that from a research

perspective, which was
really fun to figure out

what was going on.

And I was early
enough to greenwashing

that I was able to really start
some of those frameworks, do

some of the early definitions,
which have really taken off,

and things like that.

So it's been a fun wave to ride,
although I was hoping it would

be gone by now, and it isn't.

So who knows?

HOST: So, Sean, what got you
into this field to begin with?

SEAN DRYGAS:
Continuing the theme

of teaching English in Japan,
that was my first career

stop as well.

That was right after graduating
from Ivey in '92, headed over,

intending to go for
a year, maybe two,

stayed for about five.

Came back, joined
that tech startup

in the video conferencing
space, and eventually

navigated into corporate
strategy work in some larger

organizations-- the FedEx
and then Maple Leaf Foods.

Then it was while I
was at Maple Leaf,

just doing your typical
corporate strategy how

do we sell more bread
and that sort of thing,

in my personal time, became
educated about climate change,

in particular, amongst
sustainability issues

and realized that this had
significant impacts for Maple

Leaf going forward.

The footprint and also the
potential impact was large.

And fortunately, there were a
couple of others more senior

than I was at the time who
had the same perspective.

And we ended up sort of
off the side of our desk,

getting a project
going to formulate

a strategy for sustainability
for the company, put

out our first report, did our
first CDP filing, first carbon

accounting, that sort of thing.

During the process
of doing that,

the research for
that strategy talked

to a lot of different
organizations

how they've managed to embed it
into their management rhythms,

and one of those companies
was Bullfrog Power,

the renewable energy firm.

And that led to an opportunity
to make a full-time career

in this space.

As opposed to splitting my
time between corporate strategy

and sustainability,
moved full-time into it.

And so that was where I got
into full-time sustainability.

HOST: Fantastic.

John, I'm coming
to you first here.

The question is around
purpose-driven leadership.

And if it was easy, I think more
people would want to pursue it.

We're going to talk about
maybe some of the challenges

that you've sort of
faced but you've also

seen as others have pursued
purpose-driven leadership.

But if I could ask
you 30 seconds before

you dive into your
answer, what does

purpose leadership mean to you?

JOHN LOUNDS: Well, you have to
know where you're going and why

and what is it that you
are always checking in

to make sure that
what you're working on

is actually leading
you to that long trade.

And generally, it's
a long-term change.

It's not a short-term piece.

Generally, it's something
that you have to focus on.

You have to be
diligent about it,

but you have to also be
focused on it every day.

Otherwise, you'll lose where
you're going pretty quickly.

HOST: And you gotta
be deliberate.

It's like you can't go to the
gym once every three months

and expect a result change.

[LAUGHS]

JOHN LOUNDS: And the
persistence piece, I think,

is what leads to success in
purpose-driven leadership.

HOST: Great.

So let's hear a little
bit more about individuals

that you've seen.

So it is difficult. It does
require concerted effort.

So what are you seeing
in terms of those

who are aspiring to
purpose-driven leaders maybe

have actually demonstrated?

What does it mean to be that?

JOHN LOUNDS: Yeah,
so my experience

is in purpose-driven
organizations.

The reason why people get
involved with Nature Conservancy

of Canada or other
nonprofits is because they

want to change the world.

They want to make a
better place out of it.

Problem that exists
is they're often

highly disorganized
organizations because you're

filled with passionate people.

You add to that not having a
profit number to work toward,

and you get lots of potential
outcomes as a result of that.

It becomes-- so
that job I spoke to,

I took the pay cut for, it was
the hardest job I ever had.

They had 18 lines of business.

There were 75
people on the board.

It was a little bit
crazy, I have to say.

And I learned how bringing
organization and business

principles and
operations to a nonprofit

was extremely important in
making sure that it actually

lived up to its purpose because,
otherwise, everything becomes

scattered with all the passion.

The people that join--

it's kind of like religion.

I once had a guy working for me.

And he phoned me up one day.

He goes, John.

John, John.

Have you ever ridden
a horse, John?

And I thought, what
a weird question.

And he said, well?

I said, yes, I've ridden
a horse a couple of times.

He goes, John, I am that horse.

And I went, OK.

[LAUGHS]

And it gave me
the rational-- you

need to have blinders on people
that are working in a nonprofit

because everybody has an idea
of what a good outcome is

to achieve a purpose.

But unless you have a
way of corralling folks,

helping them all move
in the same direction,

your organization
will seem scattered.

It won't achieve what
you want it to achieve.

And that's why you
see so many of them

put in place a multiyear
operational campaign because it

helps to focus the energies
of everybody on the team.

And I found those to
be extremely helpful.

HOST: I wrote down "75
people on a board."

Oh, boy.

That saying, sort
of the, how do you

create the whole that's greater
than the sum of the parts?

Even when you have
lots of people trying

to do lots of important
work, it doesn't necessarily

immediately mean that
you're going to translate

into those desired outcomes.

So how do you
channel the energy?

How do you channel the focus?

How do you keep
things moving forward?

JOHN LOUNDS: And you
have so many people

that want to be involved.

How do you have them be involved
but not having 75 people

decide what's going on?

So basically, the
organization evolved,

and it evolved from
local naturalist clubs.

And they gave each
local naturalist club

a vote on the board, and nobody
ever changed it for years.

HOST: That's one big table.

So I'm going to go to you
next, Wren, in terms of--

actually build on this,
is, what does drive people

and organizations to
make meaningful change,

one where we actually see
real, tangible results?

WREN MONTGOMERY: And
again, John, you're

reminding me-- so
I've just published,

actually today, a paper
on greenhushing, which

people may have heard about.

So companies being sort of
quiet about what they're doing.

So not talking
about their purpose.

But in those interviews,
John, somebody said to me--

they were wineries.

This was in California.

They were doing great
work on sustainability.

Really purpose-driven, very
committed to sustainability,

fantastic practices.

And we're asking them why they
hadn't joined the sustainability

label.

And he said, well,
I'm riding a horse.

Why would I come
down to a donkey?

[LAUGHS] So anyway, I
thought that was a fun--

it was a very effective
summary of his sort

of internal battle about his own
purpose versus joining a larger

group.

A lot of my work is
looking at greenwashing.

But what I'm really
trying to do with that,

and where it kind of loops
into the purpose thing,

is help the
purpose-driven businesses

because I see greenwashing
as anticompetitive.

So if we have
consumers out there who

want to do the
right thing-- and we

know from all sorts of
surveys that Canadians

want to care about
climate change,

care about their
environment, want

to support products
and businesses that

are doing the right thing.

But we've got this
obfuscation in the market

where I can't tell which
company's actually doing

the right thing because they
all have a green package

and say they're eco-friendly
or clean or whatever it is.

So I see it as
anticompetitive behavior.

And so, to me, cleaning
up the greenwashing

or getting that
out of the market

allows our
purpose-driven businesses

to shine and to get the
value and the credit

that they deserve.

And of course, it's sometimes
expensive, or more expensive

to be sustainable or be
purpose-driven, so they get

that back then in the market.

So really, my goal is to
support those businesses.

So some of the problems I see
coming up in businesses that do

go down the greenwashing path--

certainly, we have some
that are deliberately

trying to fool people or
trick them, let's be honest.

The vast majority,
though, I'd say,

it's sort of more accidental.

And there are people who are
trying to do the right thing,

but A, they may
not understand how

confusing some of their language
is to a person walking down

the grocery store
aisle who doesn't

have expertise in the different
labels or something like that.

Even more, I'd say, there's
sort of a lack of communication

across silos in a company.

So maybe that the ops person or
the people doing the packaging

or whatever put something
out, the marketing people

or the sustainability group
are making different claims.

And you see these
different things

happening because
they're not talking

to each other
across the company.

And so I think that's another
really important reason

to be clear, as John said many
times, about what the purpose is

of your organization,
company, not-for-profit,

government-- whatever
it is-- university,

say that again and again,
needs to come from the top

because I really
do see continually

that there's many, many people,
or the majority of people,

at the bottom who are trying
to do the right thing.

There's just sort of
a mixed messaging.

So I don't think purpose-driven
is that hard to come by.

We just need good leaders to
make sure we're getting there.

HOST: Sometimes, you have
a big word like "purpose,"

which has a different meaning
to different individuals,

and it can feel like, oh my
gosh, this is out of reach.

This is something that I could
never achieve, sort of break it

down.

I also wrote down
"intent versus impact."

And I appreciate
your commentary.

Well, some organizations
are deliberately

doing things which would
constitute greenwashing.

So others might be
actually intending

to do the best thing
and the right thing,

but it's not necessarily
translating that way.

And so how do we take
a step back and not

assume that everyone is
sort of out to get everyone,

is education, and here's
the impact of what you're

doing is having, and maybe we
can deconstruct that so that

we can actually achieve
the impact that you're

intending to do?

[MUSIC PLAYING]

Sean, I'm going to
come back to you.

I think you can provide a
really interesting perspective

in terms of the corporate
lens on all of this.

So let's bring your voice
back into the conversation.

SEAN DRYGAS: I think I
actually build, basically,

off of some of what both Wren
and John were speaking about.

When we look at corporate,
we're sure, ultimately,

we have to deliver products or
services that the clients want

to buy, and do it properly.

That's the bottom line.

You can't compete and
survive without that.

And that's always boundary.

But within that, I think you
find that there are individuals

within the company, both
at the leadership level

and certainly
throughout the employee

base, for whom putting purpose
into their work is important.

It may not be exactly
the same as it

is in not-for-profit
world, where often,

people have decided
they want to make

that their full-time calling
or vocation and maybe

took a pay cut to get there.

But people do want to work
for an organization they

feel proud of.

They want to feel that it has
a purpose beyond just making

money.

And that gets into how you
make the business case for it.

With sustainability,
in any organization,

I think the challenge
we've all had over time

is that everybody
realizes its importance.

There's always something more.

For a corporate to decide to
really focus on purpose, invest

resources behind it, there
has to be a business case made

to say, what is
this doing to help

us succeed as a business in
addition to living the purpose?

It's an "and," not an "or."

And part of that is you're
going to keep the best people.

And to Wren's point
on leadership,

I've been fortunate
in my career to work

for a number of senior
leaders who are very concerned

not only about the very
long-term sustainability

of the organization but also
their own personal impact

legacy.

HOST: I'm going to put
a question out here,

and I want the three of
you to think about it--

you can all chip in, or
one can grab the mic--

is, I'm inspired walking
across campus today.

This time of year, there's
always a lot of energy

as students are returning
for the fall term.

It takes 30 minutes
to go three blocks.

And that's just
navigating walking.

That's not even talking
about getting into a car.

What would be your
recommendation

to individuals, you know,
maybe they're graduating,

or individuals who
are in their career

and are investigating
potential organizations?

Beyond what you
see on a website,

how do individuals
get a pulse for,

is this organization
purpose-driven

in a way that aligns
with what my purpose is?

So it could be very
different from individual

to individual or
organization to organization.

But I'm curious if
you have any tips

that you've learned
along the way.

I think there's a lot
of people out there,

myself included, that would
be very interested in having

information like that
so that when we're

having conversations and making
recommendations, it's like,

here's some questions
you can ask,

or here's some things
that you might want

to do as you're fact-checking.

So hopefully, I've
drawn out the question

long enough that one of the
three of you feels comfortable.

We'll go Sean, and then
we're going to go Wren.

[LAUGHS]

SEAN DRYGAS: Yeah,
it's actually something

that's really timely for me
because I've just joined RBC

about four and a
half months ago.

And that was a real question
that I had as a new joiner,

even though I'm
well into my career.

How do I get comfortable
with whether the organization

is really committed
to this or not?

And so, for me, part of it was
I think I spoke to eight or nine

people in the
organization who either

had first- or second-degree
connections with

and asked them
questions like, do

you see it lived out day to day?

What kind of resources
are being put behind it?

What's the governance
behind it, and is it robust?

That was my take on it.

And also maybe just
going back and looking

at the last few annual reports
and sustainability reports

and seeing, is there consistency
over time in the approach?

HOST: Wren, what are your
thoughts on the question?

WREN MONTGOMERY: We actually
just did some research

on the impacts of
greenwashing on job seekers,

and we see exactly those
sorts of things, Sean.

So I always tell them,
triangulate-- using a research

term-- but look at something
from many different angles,

as Sean illustrated
so beautifully.

Look at those annual reports.

Talk to a lot of people.

Trying to get, is
everything aligning?

Is there a consistent message,
I think, is really important.

Certainly, your connections
are wonderful, the people

who will tell you the dirt.

[LAUGHS] Are there people
you know who moved,

who left and went
somewhere else?

Maybe they just got
offered a better job.

Maybe there was a reason.

Maybe it wasn't aligning
with their values--

things like that.

Certainly, at places
like Ivey, we've

got great networks of
sustainability alumni community

and things like that who are
going to spill the beans on some

of these things, too, especially
if they're no longer there

or something like that.

So yeah, all of those things.

But we do see, in
that research we did,

job-seekers, if they could
tell that a company is not

aligned across these things.

So we show them what
the company is saying

and then some fake
sustainability reports.

It will certainly make
them look elsewhere.

All sorts of really damaging
things to the company

so definitely lose employees.

And the employees that
they lose the most

are ones with a
need for cognition.

So these are the people that we
need for to do analysis, to do--

the really top
employees that we're

looking for in any
knowledge-based work,

they're going to
be the ones most

likely to go elsewhere if they
see that lack of alignment.

So really important to have
those messages aligned.

HOST: Anything you'd
like to add, John?

JOHN LOUNDS: What I found,
not just organizationally,

what's going on, but
if I find somebody

that I admire and respect and I
think I can learn things from,

that's where I go.

I say I want to work
with that person.

I want them to show me,
teach me, mentor me.

It keeps it exciting.

It keeps it new and fresh.

But you have to think
about those people

within the organization.

I'll take government
as an example.

Lots of people
work in government.

They're just doing
their things every day.

There's a few
people in government

that are incredible, incredible
people, who are doing fantastic

work, and those are the
people I seek out if I'm

going to go and work someplace.

HOST: Yeah, I sort of pick
up on the look inward.

Yes, lots of things you
can do in terms of reports,

conversations, but let's start
with ourselves in terms of,

what am I looking for?

Where am I excelling?

What are my gaps?

Where do I want to develop,
and which organization?

And to your point, which
leaders will afford that to me?

Let's keep going down
the path of leadership.

Individual wants to
start prioritizing

purpose-driven leadership-- or
even maybe rephrase that, is,

prioritize it even more.

So it's not, I'm
not doing it today.

I'm going to do it tomorrow.

Is, I want to be a more
purposeful, driven leader.

Let's talk about skills and
let's talk about mindset.

What are some of the
steps I need to take?

What are some of
the things I need

to be thinking about in
order to make progress

down this purpose-driven
leadership path?

I'm going to bring
you in first, John.

John, I'll give
you a few moments.

I'll go to Wren
next, and then we'll

bring Sean in for
the big finale.

JOHN LOUNDS: I think it goes
back to what I just mentioned

about knowing yourself.

Early on in my career,
did I really know myself?

I'm not sure.

I have learned more and
honest about what I'm good at

and what I'm not good at.

And in order to make any
kind of organization work,

you have to surround
yourself with people

who are better at other things
that you're not good at,

or else you will never
succeed as an organization.

You know The 7 Habits of
Highly Effective People

like it's your funeral.

What do you want people
to say about you?

You want to say, hey, made
a lot of money, fantastic,

traveled all over the world?

[LAUGHS] But what did you do?

I think it's thinking
through that,

and I guess my advice would
be to start early on purpose.

Don't say, hey, I'm going
to do all this stuff,

and then I'll figure out my
purpose when I'm 65 or whatever.

I just retired, but I called
my rewirement years right now.

And basically, I
have lots of things

I can do and work on
because I actually

am doing the same thing
I was always doing.

The purposeful work
that I was doing,

I now have more projects than
I could possibly ever do.

I'm only doing it
part-time, but it's

something that's
occupying me and giving me

great psychic rewards and
other rewards as I go on.

I think I could
probably keep doing it

till I'm not on
the planet anymore.

And that's a great career
that never ends, basically.

WREN MONTGOMERY: I keep trying
to teach undergrad students

because I think our
Ivey undergrads are just

so inspiring.

And they are so driven by
this meaning, their values.

It seems-- and I think
we see that coming out

in research-- that even
controlling for life stage,

everybody was passionate when
they were 20 that they actually

are more so.

I don't know if that's
the state of the world.

I think there certainly
is some elements there

where they realize they
have to make things happen.

Certainly, in academia, we're
always told, after tenure,

you can have purpose.

So whatever job you're in, do
not wait until after tenure.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

One of the things that
I find I personally do

is I check in with
people, whether I'm

doing my grocery shopping,
or have conversations.

I have conversations
about what's

going on in our
local environment

when I'm walking my dog
and things like that.

And it really helps me, I think,
speak about what I care about,

hear what other
people care about,

and continually have that
checking in, and of course,

doing it with colleagues, doing
it with these respected people

in organizations or mentors.

But I don't think it
has to be that narrow.

I think just touching
base with everyday people

and having this
really broad network.

And then I'm also
just a big believer

in, when you are
making that change,

don't try to do it alone.

[LAUGHS] It's the
thankless work often,

but having a really good
group of committed fellow,

troublemakers, purpose-makers,
whatever they are.

I mentioned one of my favorite
quotes that I read somewhere.

I've never been able to
find the source again.

So I'm sure I'm butchering
it and I will not

cite it appropriately.

But it sort of equated
activism or making

change or having purpose--

I think could be any of those--
to thinking of being in a choir.

So you do get tired.

So have this collective
voice trying to make change.

Each of us do get tired,
need to take a break,

need to check in where we are.

But the movement continues on,
or that change continues on,

if you're working with others.

And then you can jump back in
when you're more energized.

And other people can
take a little detour

or have a break or
whatever they need.

So I try to always work in those
sorts of situations when I can.

HOST: Think, if
choir is a community,

people are there to
hear the collective.

It's not the fourth person
from the left of the third row,

unless they're doing a solo.

It's not purpose at work
and purpose outside of work.

You talked about
walking your dog, right?

And a lot of my best moments,
where I sort of have a-has

are out for a walk or a run
or definitely with my dog.

You sort of are able to think
about things a little bit

differently.

And I think we start to see
a lot more flow between work

and life that way.

WREN MONTGOMERY: Yeah.

That's so interesting,
[? Brian, ?]

because I was at Stanford,
on sabbatical for the year,

writing a book called How
to Beat the Greenwashers.

It's intended for
companies who are

trying to do the right thing,
competing against greenwashing.

But as I wrote that,
I was like, this

could also be a
self-help book because it

is talking about that check-in
and being honest and being

transparent and sort of
having a path for change.

And I think it's so
important to be transparent

with ourselves, know where we're
at, know, as Jon was saying,

our strengths and weaknesses
and where we need to improve.

HOST: It's making it feel
sort of less daunting

to say, hey, I can
make some changes,

and here are some
ways to get going.

So, Sean, I skipped over you,
so I'm going to come to you now.

SEAN DRYGAS: I love
the metaphor that Wren

shared about the choir.

I think it links
really well to, I

think, a key point we talked
about on our prep call,

and think all of us on
this experience over time,

which is that it's a long game.

You can see the societal
prioritization of purpose

and ability has ebbed
and flowed over time

as different issues
have come to the fore.

And so it takes perseverance.

It takes some patience.

It takes a long
time to see impact.

That can be hard
personally to navigate that

and to keep your energy up
and keep your motivation up.

And so that sense of community
is really, really important.

Having a network that you can
lean on when that starts to flag

is, I think, really critical--
certainly has been in my career

and, I think, for
the people that I've

worked with over the years.

I got into this in about 2007.

Really pivoted my career.

And so think about what's
happened since then.

We were in the
ascendancy, right?

Al Gore's Inconvenient
Truth was coming out,

and climate change,
in particular,

was at the top of the charts.

Then the global
financial crisis hit,

and I think sustainability went
down to number eight or nine

on the priority list.

Then it built back up again.

We had 2015 and the Paris
Agreement and Greta Thunberg

really mobilizing young people.

And now we're in a phase where
things aren't necessarily,

in every country in
the world, at least

going the way that
we'd like to see it.

But you've got to
keep that long view.

And I do think that part of
that is having a view of,

what's my theory of change?

What am I working towards?

What do I believe is
going to get us there?

Keep pushing it
one day at a time

and not expect instant
results because those

aren't going to happen.

But take the short
wins and check in

with people regularly to make
sure you're all still energized

and working in the
same direction.

HOST: The lens you brought
in, not a solo journey.

Yes, there are moments
where I need time

to myself to self-reflect.

But how do we lean on others?

How do we go through it?

I like the quick wins.

So it is a journey.

And it's tough if all
you're going to do

is celebrate once
you get to the end.

And one could probably argue
there is no end to the journey.

Making sure you're recognizing
milestones along the way.

There's always more
insights than I could ever

have imagined going in, and
I'm always learning something.

But what are two tips,
really, with the lens

of becoming a more purposeful,
driven leader myself?

So we talked about some
here, but what are some a-has

that you hope our audience
members walk away from?

WREN MONTGOMERY: I
think just honesty.

I think, at the
corporate level, there's

so much pressure on that
right now for transparency.

We see a lot of
pushback on hypocrisy.

Think audiences, stakeholders
react much better

if you're honest about
needing to make improvements

and that's going to take
you a while to get there

than if you're fooling them.

So be honest.

Fooling your stakeholders is
never a good way to do business.

But I think that
really, for me at least,

resonates into
the personal, too.

Just be honest about who you
are, what makes you happy, what

you want to do in
the world, and keep

checking back, checking
in with yourself,

and making sure you're doing it.

HOST: John or Sean, what
are some final thoughts

from each of you?

JOHN LOUNDS: One piece is, take
a chance at the right time,

not too late in your career.

Take a chance to live
where you want to live,

and think about
that you're going

to have to invest time and money
in that by lost wages, perhaps,

or whatever.

The rewards, the
satisfaction, the fulfillment

of a life well
lived is actually--

what was that old Mastercard?

It's priceless.

And in the end, that's
all we all really have.

HOST: Fantastic.

Sean, final comments?

SEAN DRYGAS: Yeah,
I think that point

on finding a great leader
to attach yourself to,

to help guide your career,
is just so important.

As we look for how
to bring purpose

to our careers and
our organization,

there are many paths.

And I think one of the risks
is you attach yourself to,

you know, I have to go work
for this type of organization

or that type of organization.

But I think, in my experience,
whether it's a business,

whether it's a not-for-profit,
whether it's government,

if you've got the right people
and the right leadership

in place, that's where
you're actually going

to make a difference
and you're going

to be doing the right things.

And don't limit your
choices too much.

In fact, look for ways to drive
purpose with the opportunities

that you find
yourself, realizing you

may have to make trade-offs,
it may be salary,

it may be location, et
cetera, to have that impact

that you want.

But if you're in the
right organization

with the right leader, I think
there's lots of opportunity

to have impact.

NARRATOR: If
today's conversation

got you thinking differently
about leadership,

we've done our job.

To learn more
about Ivey programs

designed for impact, head
to [? iveyexeced.com. ?]

And if this sparked
something worth sharing,

send it to a colleague or follow
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Every conversation moves
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Thanks for listening.

We'll see you next time.

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