Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Long Game: A Heated Rivalry Podcast is a re-watch and deep-dive podcast dedicated to Heated Rivalry, hosted by Declan and Silvan. In each episode, we revisit key moments across the series, unpacking the slow-burn tension, character development, and emotional beats that make the heated rivalry world so compelling. Through thoughtful discussion, close reading, and a fan-informed lens, we explore themes of competition, intimacy, identity, and growth over time, celebrating not just the heat of the rivalry, but the long game it takes to truly understand these characters and their relationship.
New episodes published every Sunday
Declan (00:00)
Hi everyone, welcome back to Long Game Heat at Rivalry Podcast. My name is Declan. This is Sylvan, and together we are continuing with our review of the Heated Rivalry book by Rachel Reed. I believe this is part that we're on now.
Declan (00:14)
before we get started, we would like to put a little bit of an announcement out. Sylvan and I have a plan to organize an event, a bit of a meet and greet, just to come together in person and talk about Heat at Rivalry, the books, the book club, anything that you're interested in that sort of coincides with the podcast.
you like to call me in person then you can call and see us in Belfast on the 19th of july. A little short notice but if you're able to attend please let us know we'll put a link and that will connect you to a google doc which will allow you to put in your name your address details anything like that and to sort of gauge interest to see if anyone is interested in joining us and Belfast on the 19th so if that's someone that you're interested in if you have a bit of free time or you can catch a quick flight then
Yeah, definitely check that out. We'll be releasing more details about that later on this month.
Declan (01:12)
Sylvan had a guest on last time and they went through a couple of chapters. a lot to do with Rose and Shane coming out the Rose.
Lots of very big pivotal moments, but now we're ready to move on to Shane coming out, which I've been really looking forward to. because it's such a big moment for him personally, but also for his relationship with Ilya. Sullivan, what did you think of the chapter?
Silvan (01:40)
Yeah, it was really interesting. Before I start, just wanted to say thank you to Alicia, who joined the podcast last week and filled in your very big shoes. She did such a wonderful job at, you know, creating that conversation and going through some of these really, really meaty chapters. And that's what I'm noticing. Like we are going a little bit slower because there is so much in these chapters. So thank you, Alicia, if you're listening. So, so chapter 17 starts off with.
Declan (01:49)
Yeah.
Silvan (02:08)
Shane coming to Ilya's hotel room. Essentially, that's when he comes out. I have mixed feelings about this chapter, if I'm honest. The reason being is that the coming out to Ilya is very similar to how it's scripted on the TV show. So we see a lot of the same dialogue. And Alicia and I talked about this in the previous episode where Shane comes out to Rose in the restaurant.
Again, the dialogue is literally taken from the page, so it's actually quite nice to read. I don't know what your thoughts were on having that be so identical.
Declan (02:47)
Yeah, it's one of those things with adaptation. there is a fine line that's drawn between what is important to include from the story and what is important to develop upon. And I think Jacob Tierney is particularly very good at picking these moments. So he knows where to put his energies. So if something isn't quite working in the book or could be delivered with a bigger punch, then he'll do that. But he will not deviate away from material that makes
the reading experience or the enjoyment of the show any less. So like there's plenty of examples of adaptations that just go off the rails and the person who is getting a hold of the rights and the material think that they know better than the author who wrote it. I think Game of Thrones is a great example of that. I think it got to the point where the showrunners and the writers thought that they knew better than George R. Martin and they do find that a lot of his projects that get picked up end up
with this happening, which is why he usually drops out of them, because other writers come in and they write with the intention that they know better than the person who originally wrote the story. Which is, I don't know if it's like an ego thing or anything like that, but typically it doesn't result in a better product than what was originally written. And if you're not making something that is either unique on its own and still amazing and comparable, or, you know, you may as well not be doing it.
Because if you're not going do an adaptation that does justice to the original source material, then you know, why you bother picking up the story in the first place? But that's what I like about Jacob Tierney. He knows when to pick the right moments out of Heated Rivalry and when to not mess with them and also when to improve them.
Silvan (04:35)
Totally, and I'm curious about how much involvement Rachel Reed had. I don't know, so I'm not gonna make a comment because I tend to get corrected every week because I make mistakes, but I wonder how much involvement Rachel Reed had in terms of the script or in terms of what was going into the scripts, because I'm pretty sure that Jacob Tierney wrote them, and I think he's the sole writer for season one. I know season two, they've picked up an additional writer, but I wonder
much, yeah, if anyone knows, like, I'd be interested to hear because there is such a fine line, like you say, about how much the original author has input versus how much they're not used to how TV works and it's a different medium, it's a different set of pacing, you know, it changes things.
Declan (05:23)
Yeah, a hundred percent. I think that's why it's very beneficial that studios are able to work with authors who you have like script writing experience and things like that. I think it's that's a great route for any writer to go down. and a lot of really great projects have come out as a result of writers going down that route. I think that Rachel Reads like a good example within like the queer sphere is Heartstopper, like Alice Osman writes
co-writes a lot of the Heartstopper episodes. and she was originally like a comic artist. Like Heartstopper is a comic. and she has translated that now into like a TV now film version of her works into something that works within that medium. so yeah that's a great example of like queer content being translated by the author who knows how TV works and is able to do it justice.
So yeah, I hope Rachel Reed and I can imagine that she would be more of like a like an input when Jacob is needing clarification on things. That's the idea I would have got if she's not getting at writing credit. It's more why did you choose to do this with these characters? Or what does this tell you about these characters? What were you thinking when you wrote this line? I think that's more the idea of, you know, how involved she would have been. Obviously there's no way of knowing, but from my guess that
She doesn't have like that writing credit. Maybe she does, and we were just wrong, but if she does, she was involved. If she doesn't, then it would have been like an advisory thing or a clarification on certain things. Because she's clearly very much part of the show and the marketing, and she's involved, and clearly she is happy enough with what turned out. I know I would be. and she does you do get the idea that she is quite involved in in what's what's happening.
Silvan (06:55)
Okay.
Yeah.
Declan (07:19)
Maybe in the regards to the writing that's going on anyway, but yeah, th she does seem to have a good relationship with the showrunners.
Silvan (07:27)
Definitely you can see that there's a trust there in that relationship in terms of the writing. I think for me, where it hasn't worked as well when an author of a book writes the script for a movie, for example, is Nicholas Sparks. Now I know I'm going to be attacked by this. I love a Nicholas Sparks novel. I loved A Walk to Remember, The Notebook, Message in a Bottle, Nice Tour of Death. I read all of his books.
He wrote the book, I think it's The Last of Us or something like that. It's the one with Miley Cyrus. Now he wrote the script to that. I did not think that was the strongest script. And when I realized it was him writing it, I thought, this is why. This is why you have people who specialize in script writing.
Declan (08:19)
Is it Yeah, I know what you're talking about. I know exactly the movie. Is this the movie where she met Liam Hemsworth? my god, the best thing to come out of that movie was that song When I Look At You.
Silvan (08:25)
Yes,
interesting. That's a song you.
Declan (08:34)
Yeah. I'm pretty sure that song
came from that movie or was made for that movie. don't quote me on that because I'm not some Mighty Cyrus super fan. I just like that song and I'm pretty sure it was on that movie soundtrack. But yeah, I didn't know that was like a a Nicholas Sparks novel, but that's very interesting. I've always wanted a gay version of Nicholas Sparks and I'm hoping Rachel Reed maybe is that.
Silvan (09:00)
Maybe, I mean, I think Nicholas Sparks is a really good writer, especially in romance. So when I've read romance before, it's been MF romance. I've never really read a lot of MM. I know you're more prolific in that. And I have looked it up. It's called The Last Song. So the book and the movie both have the same name. And so I just wanted to make sure I fact-checked that because, help me.
And coming back to this chapter, I think what really stood out to me is, you know, this pivotal moment that you're talking about, about Shane coming out to Ilya. And it sounds so, when I say Shane coming out to Ilya, it sounds,
It's, I'm struggling to find the words, so help me out here. Because it's not, it's not miniscule. It's not, it is important, but it's almost like a, well, duh kind of moment.
Declan (09:52)
It's kinda like reminds me of me coming out to my mom. And we're going, Yeah, I know. It's more like what do you want a medal? It's it just is that instantaneous acceptance. Like I don't think sexuality is really an issue in Ilya's book at all. I don't think he has like an internalized homophobia or anything like that. Comes across as a very
secure person when it comes to sexuality, whereas Shane is not. He's very insecure about his sexuality. And whilst Ilya is obviously very cautious about being seen, you know, sleeping with men, things like that, obviously he needs to protect himself. That stigma, like he doesn't have that really. Whereas Shane, for him, he has this perfect image to maintain and this perfect outcome for how he wants his life to be.
And essentially this idea of being gay is not in line with that image whatsoever. His self-image that he's built up in his head has just been broken and he's finally admitted it to himself. And he has to go and run the person or run and tell the person that he cares the most about, which is Ilya. Like he has to let him know. He has to come out with it and say, I'm gay. And while Ilya is very
laxadaisical and kind of you know unserious about the whole thing. I do get the idea that he's doing this to like calm Shane and to be like, I'm fine with this. It's okay. Like I've always sort of known. Obviously we're sleeping together. And I think it's his way of injecting a little bit of humor because it's very much their banter. Like Ilya's dry humour and Shane being the sort of one that's a bit high strung and
going on very intense with the emotions. And so it's like a it's like a yeah, I know, it's okay. Like you don't need to you don't need to worry about that. But thank you for telling me. And you do get that sense that there is like Shane expecting almost like a different reaction. But then he remembers, yeah, this is Ilya, like he's not going to he's not gonna give me the big reaction, is he?
Silvan (12:15)
Yeah, he's not gonna get the big warm hug, honey, it's okay, all that kind of thing that you sort of fantasize sometimes when you do come out to somebody because he gets the,
Like, what's the big deal here? Like, you know, my yeah, like my dick has been in your mouth. Like, let's move on. But I think there is this sort of this difference for Shane that I'm getting from the book where he's like, you're not gay and Ilya like, well, no, not completely. And so there is still this comparison between almost that that
Declan (12:31)
Well you want a metal?
Mm. Yeah.
Silvan (12:54)
that character arc, that character journey for Shane where it feels more monumental.
Declan (13:00)
Yeah, yeah. He's finally talking about it, which is this is something that he has avoided like for the majority of the book. He doesn't want to discuss sexuality, he just doesn't bring it up. they do what they do and then they just do not discuss it. But this is where the big change is coming now, where Shane does want to discuss it. He is acknowledging not just his sexuality, but Ilya's as well. He's acknowledging that you're, you know.
Years something, but you're not fully gay. Like I I acknowledge that you like are also sexually attracted to women. Like he's finally ready to start discussing this stuff like an adult. well maybe that's not a fair way of putting it. He's ready to discuss it now that he feels more comfortable with who he is. and that's a big step. So it is. So yeah, I really I really like that this moment.
Is shared between him and Ilya because a different MM romance writer wouldn't have had them have this discussion. Yeah, yeah. It would have just been and I told my parents I came out, it's like, I'm so proud of you, yada yada yada. But they don't come out to their partner. Like whenever it's like a a a threat or it's like a bye awakening or it's a gay awakening.
Silvan (14:06)
Really?
Declan (14:25)
You would be surprised by how few authors actually include coming out to their partner that they've been sleeping with, to the point where they go, I'm gay. And they're like, Yeah, that's okay. Like it doesn't happen as frequently as you want. And I do think it's important it's acknowledged because it's a big moment. It's a big moment in terms of their relationship. It's like a new thing. It's like a it's a it's an acceptance of self.
And so it it it should be a big moment. And it's a missed opportunity when I see authors don't like make something of it. And I do think it's it is a missed opportunity when they don't.
Silvan (15:04)
That's so interesting. to Rachel Reed's credit, she does it really well here in a way that fits the characters.
Declan (15:10)
Yeah, and they're true to themselves. Shane comes out in the way that you would expect him to come out to Ilya and Ilya reacts in the way that you would expect Ilya to react. And I'm just getting to the point now at this stage of the book where I'm like, God, she's just written really, really good characters. Like these guys, I know them inside out by this point. I know how they'll react. Their personalities are so on point. And you're just sort of they're like fully realized at this point.
They're like they're people and we know these people now because we're we're loving their lives with them. And yeah, it just makes it so much more enjoyable.
Silvan (15:51)
that point, we get to understand them more because they are consistent and they behave consistently and they speak consistently. And I think that's what was missing in Game Changer. The characters were all over the place making decisions that didn't really make sense or saying things that didn't make sense and saying things that didn't seem real. Like, I don't know, the dialogue was just weird in Game Changer for me at parts.
Declan (16:12)
Yeah.
Yeah, I agree. Scott and Kip to this day still remain sort of like near the bottom of my ranking of these books. And I think that it's just because their characters are so inconsistent. They do not behave in the way that they should, given that we're introduced to them with certain character traits, certain personalities, and you just sort don't buy that they would make these decisions. And so
Can't buy into the characters, you can't buy into the book.
Silvan (16:45)
Yeah. One thing you said earlier was about how do you discuss sexuality and sex? And it took me back to, and this is going to be a very old throwback to Dawson's Creek where, and this is not a spoiler because it's been like 20 years or whatever, but
No, but I was, I love Buffy too. So I will get on board with the Buffy train too. But yeah, Dawson's, I grew up on Dawson's Creek, Buffy, 90210, all of those shows. But for me, there is a point in Dawson's Creek, I don't ask me what season this is, but it's when Pacey and Joey are together. And this is how I knew the writing was so good, even as a teenager. know, they're debating about whether to have sex for the first time. Pacey's obviously had sex, but Joey hasn't and...
You know, I Pacey says something along the lines of, well, if you can't talk about it, maybe we shouldn't be having it. And that stays with me still. And when you were talking about them discussing their sexuality or not being able to discuss their sexuality before, but still having sex, that remains incongruent for me.
Declan (17:42)
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly. So there are a lot of instances where and anyone who's like slept with a closeted person would know this. a lot of them don't want to look at it. They don't want to view that thing. It's it's the elephant in the room, but they sort of decompartmentalize that goes to a different part of their mind and it's not brought up, it's not discussed.
And when it's not probably not discussed, then there can be no real relationship built because you're living a lie. You're you're living in denial. You are not acknowledging a huge aspect of what this relationship requires to work, which is to be outside, to be public, to be in each other's company, to attend family gatherings, to go to parties, to be able to go on holidays and be seen and to be in love.
you cannot do a relationship without willing to do these things. And you can't do that if you can't even acknowledge that you want to be in a relationship with a man. And so there is no future for a relationship in which a person cannot admit their sexuality to themselves whilst they are participating in that sexuality. it just doesn't make sense.
Silvan (19:23)
I agree and this is how I know these characters are growing and they're developing and there has been this scope for them to develop into what we see now. Because we need them to get to this point. We can't accept them together with all these sort of vacuums of space that hasn't been addressed or hasn't been brought to the surface in a way.
Declan (19:35)
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely, yeah.
Silvan (19:50)
And there was one thing I remember you talking about when we were reviewing the TV show and you talked about Ilya not being, almost like Ilya not liking himself or not believing that Shane likes him. Because again, here we see this in the book where, you know, Shane says, I can't keep pretending I don't like you. And then Ilya says, you don't like me. And then Shane says, do. Maybe I like you too much.
And then it says, Ilya's heart clenched.
Declan (20:22)
Yeah. yeah. And given the context of that like hidden chapter, like the the hotel room Las Vegas from Ilya's perspective, you understand that Ilya thinks that Shane dislikes him, but is so hot and bothered about him that he can't help himself. But now what Shane is doing is essentially showing Ilya that no what I like you for you.
I actually like you. I like your stupid personality and the way you make me feel. and for Ilya, it's like it's almost like there's no way. There's no way. You're being ridiculous. This is this is ridiculous. He can't believe it. Which is funny but also sad. like he is presenting the most outside of Svetlana. He is
And actually that's only in reference to the book. Svetlana is the only one who really knows him within the show. Within the book, no one knows him as much as Shane. Shane is actually the one who knows Ilya the most. He sees the most of who Ilya truly is as a person. And so Shane is accepting him, knowing who he is. And so, wow, he wants him.
Silvan (21:46)
Yeah, and how common is that, especially for, and I can only speak to the experience of gay men, to not feel lovable, to not feel loved, to not feel like they deserve that love. And it's that it's where that you can't love me or you you can't like me thing comes from, from for a lot of gay men, I imagine.
Declan (22:01)
Yeah.
Yeah, and that is that comes from trauma. it's it's the fact that as a young gay man, gay boy, like you are taught that being gay is not a lovable thing. You cannot be loved if you are gay. It is a bad thing. And so people who are bad do not deserve love. That's what your parents teach you.
That's what society teaches you. If you're bad, people will withdraw their love from you and you'll be ostracized. And being gay was considered one of those bad things. And so people create this idea in their heads that I'm the bad thing. So that means I'm not lovable. Even though they can fully accept themselves and be like, I am gay. I'm gay. Look at me, look at my rainbow flag. I'm out here in my you know skimpy outfit.
Shaking my ass. I'm gay. Woo! Happy Pride. But inside, they have completely internalized the idea that they're not lovable because they're gay. Which is incredibly sad. And it leads people to not want to pursue long-term meaningful relationships. And that is such a waste. Because hookups are fun. No one denies that. But
Having love and acceptance from a NAR person that meets you on your level and wants to spend all their free time and, you know, life with you is infinitely better. So it is a shame, and I do wish that there were more resources for gay men and queer people in general, to be able to address some of these really negative.
self image issues and really horrible internalized beliefs that are dragging them down and leading them to lead lives that are less unfulfilling.
Silvan (24:18)
Yeah, yeah, I agree. It's incredibly sad, but also a very stark reality of what is happening. And I like that you caveat that by saying queer people, because that's true. I think it's a shared experience amongst a lot of queer people.
But I want to talk about some of the differences in this chapter that I found. So here we find out that Ilya's mom is dead. We also find out, we get confirmation that Ilya's dad has Alzheimer's. Now we know that there's something going on, but we don't know it's Alzheimer's. And in true Ilya fashion, it's delivered really bluntly. There's not a lot of fluff in there.
And maybe it's because for Ilya, know, English is his second language. So naturally, I think in your native language, you pad out sentences and vocabulary more naturally than you would if it was a second language. But I don't feel like it had the impact it meant to because it was delivered all on one page. felt like it was like, this is something I need the readers to know.
Declan (25:07)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Silvan (25:27)
Right, you know, let's move on to something else. And I'm like, hang on a minute. There is such a missed opportunity because within that same page, we get both these big pieces of information that form such a big backstory to Ilya growing up, but also why Ilya is the way he is. And then they just move on and I'm like, wow, really? Yeah, that's my sort of
view on that big difference in this chapter.
Declan (25:57)
What do you think Rachel Reed's motivation was for doing it like that?
Silvan (26:02)
That is a good question. I'm not, you know, I struggle when people ask me these kinds of questions because I'm not a writer. I work in psychology and I feel as a client. I'm going to, do you know what? I'm going to caveat this. I'm going to pretend it's a client sitting in front of me who has delivered this information just like that. If a client were delivering that information to me, sitting in front of me, I would think.
You're in your head, not your heart.
Declan (26:33)
Mm-hmm.
Silvan (26:34)
You're semantically processing that, but not within your body, not semantically, not with your emotions, not with your feelings. That's what comes across to me.
Declan (26:43)
You're not feeling it.
There you go. He is trying to be nonchalant. He's trying to go, well, you know, Mumber died and whatever, and my dad has Alzheimer's, but you whatever, it's not a big deal. He is being completely incongruent with his feelings. He is presenting this information to Shane because he wants Shane to know. Because he just received a very open gesture from Shane, and he wants
To meet him at his level, but not so much that he's ready to break down and discuss this stuff with Shane in any way that is meaningful. One thing that we do learn about Ilya is that he is very he struggles a lot with expressing his emotions in the way in which they're actually being felt. He masks his emotions with other emotions. So he does so he feels hurt, he will mask it with.
Anger. That's common. he feels insecure, he'll mask it with humor. It's it's masking. That's that's what Ilya is. Ilya is incredible at it. He's really good at masking and he does it throughout the books. and this is another version of that. This nonchalance is a mask, it is not how he's truly feeling, but he cares enough about Shane to want to let Shane know what's going on with him.
But he has to deliver it in this way because if he does it any hour way, he's afraid he'll get emotional. That's what I get from it. And Shane is by this stage, I think this is a good example of Shane's neurodivergence. He does not know how to address this. He does not know what to do with this information. He does not know how to inquire or how to open a space and to become
Silvan (28:35)
Mm.
Declan (28:42)
An active listener, he does what he can, what's within his sort of remit to be able to do. I'm sorry that's happening. Like it's genuine and it's heartfelt. He does feel genuinely sorry for Ilya. And I imagine he wishes wasn't happening to him, but he doesn't know how to take it beyond that. which is something that will again show up in the next book, is this.
Silvan (28:43)
you
Declan (29:10)
mismatch in how to read each other and how to react to each other's feelings. because honestly, if I was dating a guy, we had this big moment and he comes out and he tells me that, yeah, my mum committed suicide and you know, my my dad is Alzheimer's. my god, my reaction would be so different. I'd be like, my God, I'm just I'm s like do you want to talk about it? Like like tell me what what what happened? Like how how are you with that now are you feeling?
It would be a completely different thing. But yeah, Ilya is with Shane and so Shane's reaction is is different. And Ilya is different in his delivery, so
Silvan (29:54)
Can I ask, would your reaction be contingent on your background and the fact that you're training to be a counsellor and that sort of what you would naturally do as Declan the person but also Declan the counsellor?
Declan (30:11)
Hmm. What a very interesting question. I don't know. At this point, Deck on the Council is it is still me. It's a version of me I use for certain purposes, i.e. helping people. but yeah, it's kinda like you know the way sometimes you behave differently depending on what group of friends you're around?
Silvan (30:40)
100%.
Declan (30:42)
Yeah. Those versions of me that one group sees and then the other sees, they're both me. They might not be the me that other people see, but both of those versions are true to me. And it's very much the same. I might be like within this podcast, like coming from a therapist guise, but that therapist is me. It's still me. It's still my personality. It's still the way I do things, the way I I want to do things.
And there's other times where I will be more withdrawn and I don't really want to ask people questions. That's still me too. It's just me with maybe a bit less energy and a different setting. so to answer your question, I'd like to think so. That that's in me anyway. I might not have the language and the skills to be able to communicate it as effectively as as I've as I've learned to.
But the intention would always still be there and the effort would still be there.
Silvan (31:46)
Yeah, I hear you. There's this assimilation of both these versions of yourself essentially and in a way that feels quite authentic to you because it is who you are as a person at your very core. You are that, you know, lovely, trusting, inquisitive, curious person that wants the best for somebody else. And this is where I almost see Shane's response as very Shane-like. So you were talking about like
Shane said, I'm sorry. And he said, says, shit, I'm sorry. That's it. But I think Shane doesn't have the emotional vocabulary And I know in the book, I don't know if he's written as neurodivergent in the book. I know it's very much in the TV show, but again, I don't know what this, this it is in the book. So I'm going to take that out of it for now. just for the purpose of this argument.
Declan (32:37)
Mm-hmm.
Silvan (32:40)
And I know a lot of friends who would react very similarly to Shane. They wouldn't, when you tell somebody somebody's dead, people don't generally know what to say. It's a very awkward, like, I'm really sorry for your loss kind of vibe, which isn't a bad thing to say. not saying that's bad. And, you know, it is really dumped. My mom is dead. My father's Alzheimer's. What the hell is Shane supposed to do with that? Like really?
Like, it's like a double whammy, like, okay, I don't, I very much like you would be like, tell me more what's going on for you. Like, what are you feeling right now? I don't think Shane has that in him to ask those kinds of questions, as would a lot of my friends, I think.
Declan (33:22)
The URL.
Yeah. It's I suppose it's it just depends on personality type. It really does. everyone is so individual and so unique, but people share certain traits. And one of them is not having an idea what to do whenever someone is hurt or in pain or creating an atmosphere that makes you feel uncomfortable. People don't know how to handle it. but I think it's an acquired skill, to be honest. I think
Like I obviously I'm Irish. I come from a Catholic background from Northern Ireland. like when it came to like wakes, like if you're not aware, by the way, so in in certain parts of Ireland and Northern Ireland in particular and a lot of sort of West Ireland, whenever someone dies, there will be like a wake. Like the body will be brought back to a house and it will be sort of it's an open coffin, it's like displayed.
People from the community will come, they'll pay their respects, they'll meet the family, they'll talk and catch up on how you doing, how's the things, how's the family. you'll have some tea, biscuits, sandwiches, a little bit of soup, maybe. some lasagna if you're classy like my family is. and it's like a way of allowing the community to gather. but within that ritual, I learned
How to speak to people from a place of grief, from a place of loss, and how to do what is, you know, the societally nice thing to say to people whenever they're grieving and whenever they've lost someone. like I've learned better how to handle that because of how I was raised, how I grew up. whereas some people come from backgrounds where they've never even encountered death before. Like death has never been a
thing that they've ever had to deal with, or someone's loss has never been a thing they had to deal with. And so being thrown in the deep end, especially if you come from a background where your life has gone pretty well, parents have done a great job. There's been no tragedies. Thank God for you, well done. but guess what? My mom died, committed suicide, and by the way, yeah, my dad has Alzheimer's
What do you do whenever you have someone that comes from a background which is kind of like had the perfect upbringing without much challenge? obviously Shane will have his unique challenges due to his race and things like that, but in terms of grief and family tragedy, no. Not from what we learned. So what does he do?
Silvan (36:17)
He says nothing.
Well, he doesn't know. Yeah, he doesn't know. And I think you're right. think Shane has for the most part had a very sheltered life. Let's be honest. You know, it's been privileged and it's been sheltered. Yes, he's had other issues. Sure. And I think once you were talking, I was sort of, took me back to sort of instances with particular friends of mine. It's a very good friend of mine from back home. And she actually listens to the podcast. And when I told her about, you know,
Declan (36:20)
He doesn't know what.
Silvan (36:49)
my experience with my parent, she was like, I don't know what to say right now. And I felt more seen and more heard from her saying that than the, I'm so sorry for your loss kind of spiel. Cause that to me means very little. And then on the other hand, I'm thinking of a newer friend who I was talking about my experience with my parent. And she was, the first thing she said was, what was their name?
And that blew me away. I was like, that meant so much to me that it wasn't a...
Declan (37:21)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Silvan (37:31)
you know, tell me what happened or, you know, she didn't care about that. She wanted to know what the relationship between me and my parents was. And that to me meant more. And that was such a, and it stuck with me. It really did. It was such a lovely, lovely thing to say, actually.
Declan (37:37)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
It's a very important thing that's me speaking from experience that when you're grief counseling someone that you bring the lost one into the room. You know, you I I've asked clients, you know, tell me about them. Like what were they like? What what what was your mother like? What was her name? Like what what did she like to do? What were her likes and interests and you know, what's your favorite memory of her? Like bringing the person alive.
Into the room. Like, and that is so healing. Because so many people avoid grief and avoid talking about losing someone because they don't want to cause pain either to themselves or the people around them. But in that they lose the loving memories of the person. They don't get to talk to the talk about them like that. and that's a shame. You know, they're gone, but
They're not completely gone. They're still there in your mind and in your heart. And you should you know, honor how they were when they were alive, how how they were passionate, how they how they were influencing your life in this very positive way and and recalling that. You know, it doesn't always need to be sad. And sometimes you'll just cry happy tears instead because you got to love them. And that can be very big for people that are very
Avoidant of dealing with their grief.
Silvan (39:22)
Yeah, because I can't imagine Ilya being brought up in an environment where they were talking about his mum with his brother and his father. Like, that's just, I can't imagine that happening for him. And so it was, I imagine, not really talked about. And so in the book, he doesn't even have Svetlana as a childhood friend, like you said, he's not talking to anyone about this.
Declan (39:46)
Yeah.
And because of the nature of her death as well, there would have been stigma around it, which would have made it even more taboo to talk about. And so Ilya has never dealt with the grief of losing losing his mother. Like guaranteed. And they lose her in such a traumatic way. Is awful. Awful for any child, any adult, never mind child. So yeah, I mean, it's no wonder he has developed these self defence mechanisms where he masks his emotions because
That was what was culturally expected of him.
Silvan (40:20)
Yeah, and I know we've been very harsh on Shane in the past, but this is where I give him a lot of grace in this specific scenario. do give Shane, he gets a free pass here.
Declan (40:35)
Yeah, it's an awkward position to be put into, but you know he tries his best and he is authentic and well meaning in his responses to Ilya and he gets better at it for Ilya.
Silvan (40:50)
Yeah,
yeah. And this is what I like about in a similar way that what the TV show does. Rachel Reed also does this in the next chapter. So if we move on to chapter 18, we know we've got a really heavy chapter previously, but this one gets lighter. It's not so heavy. And I think there are moments in the TV show that do that, sort of mirror that as well. And I think this is such a nice touch because I was like, I need to be picked up now. Let's move on, please.
Declan (41:11)
Yeah. Yeah.
Silvan (41:19)
I need a bit of a pick-me-up here. And she does it. We get this introduction to Frank Zulo, who's from Scott's team. We talked about that in Game Changers a little bit. So I don't feel like that's hugely significant. And it doesn't feel significant in this chapter.
Declan (41:33)
No, not
not really. He's just like a side character.
Silvan (41:37)
Yeah, and interestingly enough, I didn't highlight or I didn't underline rather lots of this chapter because it's them texting backwards and forwards. I mean, the extent of it, I mean, this is where we come back to the smutty bit is where Ilya masturbates with his non-dominant hand because of his elbow injury. And I thought, do you know what, we've all been there.
Declan (42:05)
Yeah, sure.
Silvan (42:06)
You know, it's
not the best, but it'll work.
Declan (42:10)
Yeah, well I've luckily never injured my dominant hand, so you know, take from that what you will.
Silvan (42:18)
I do you know? But I
think we needed that levity. We needed that sort of, okay, let's return.
Declan (42:23)
Yeah, yeah. We
wind it down, wind it down a little bit. We were we were getting heavy, wind it down. but it also shows a more lighter, less angsty version of their relationship.
Because for the past few chapters everything has been so intense and there's been so much going on. They've been fighting, they're, you know, trying to like find other people they sleep with and yeah yeah, we're we're challenging the relationship, challenging the dynamic Shay comes out, it's it's a lot, it's a lot going on. And so now that they established that no, we want to continue this thing, and I'm continuing it really honestly that
I really like you. And they've sort of given themselves about permission to be a bit friendlier with each other, maybe a bit more romantic, maybe a bit more flirtatious. and giving themselves permission to not feel like they need to justify the time you spend together. I forgot to find fine.
Silvan (43:28)
Hmm.
Yes. Yes, hugely. Because we see, because that's growth. And we see this growth here where, you know, we come back to the heaviest. We stay with the smutty stuff, which is great. And here we see Shane and Ilya hook up before a game, but not like the night before, like the day of the game kind of thing. And they haven't done this before. And immediately Shane says,
something is wrong with Ilya. Because Ilya is, think, the one who's initiating come over, come over kind of thing. We'll be quick, it'll be an hour kind of thing. And then Shane eventually agrees. But Rachel Reed writes, Shane watched him as he licked and sucked his cock and allowed himself for a moment to wonder at Ilya's desperation and his need for this before a game. And then later she says, she writes, something is wrong with Ilya. The thought hits Shane suddenly.
Shane has this perception, know, he has this, something's going on, he doesn't know what and he doesn't have the vocabulary for that yet, because I don't think he reads Ilya as well as Ilya reads Shane.
Declan (44:41)
Yeah, one percent. Yeah.
Silvan (44:43)
And you can see this. So he's like, I know something's wrong. I'm going to bank it. I'm going to, you know, let's just get through this bit, the sex bit, and then maybe afterwards.
Declan (44:53)
Yeah. I find that what's happening now is that Shane is actually catching up to Ilya in terms of how much he understands him. Like he is beginning to learn Ilya's tales and what makes Ilya tech, what he likes, what he doesn't like. And I don't think he's realized how much he is in tuned with him at this point. until he's like, No, there's something wrong with him. Like, I can tell now that there's something wrong with him. Something's not right. He
seems to want something from me. Like he's needy. There's like a desperation here. There like he he needs this. He needs the affection. He needs the distraction. He needs something from me. And I don't know why all of a sudden he needs it. So Shane is slowly beginning to pick up on what Ilya is throwing down, which is perfect because this is the chapter of we're really growing here as a couple. Like
we are getting closer, we are allowing ourselves to actually, you know, grow together without all the angst. And we're just doing it. So yeah, it's a nice natural progression, I think, for him to notice that.
Silvan (46:08)
You're right. And as much grace as we gave Shane in the previous chapter, here we see him saying, are you okay? And says, mean, I know we don't really talk, but if you need to, and obviously Ilya cuts him off with, I'm fine, as we expected, but then Shane doesn't let it go. He's like, is it your dad? And then Ilya sighs heavily and scrubs a hand over his face. And then Ilya says, my father is dying, but that is not the problem. And then Ilya's like, so you see Shane really trying here.
where he didn't know what to do in the previous chapter. Bless him.
Declan (46:37)
Yeah.
Yeah,
a hundred percent. He is becoming more proactive with actually pursuing Ilya. He is no longer taking no for an answer. He's not taking Ilya face value because he knows now that Ilya likes to mask his feelings. And so he is much more committed to pushing Ilya. And that's something you can only do when you're really comfortable with a person.
Like you're not going to push a stranger for details whenever something bad is going on with them. Okay, I'll take it face five, are you alright if you say no, you're fine. But if it's a friend's like, no, I'm not stupid. I know you. What is wrong? Tell me what's wrong. And you're gonna pester them because you're their person and sometimes they just need to know that you care enough to keep asking. And I think Ilya gets this from Shane that it wasn't just an empty offer. Shane cares.
Silvan (47:41)
Yeah, and in true Ilya fashion, he doesn't give a lot, but I don't think he's there yet. You know, he's like, you know, my father is dying, but that's not the problem. The problem is Pauline and my brother who want more money from me. And so he goes into a topic that is easy for him to talk to because the money is easier to talk to the way they, I guess extort him for money, really? Like he's their cash cow in a way.
Declan (48:04)
Yeah.
He is like their he is basically their sort of you know, prize horse that they've been training up and you know he's off to the races and he's off making the family money and that's why they view him as an asset, not as not as a a family member, which is really sad and very dehumanizing for Ilya as well. It's it's not nice. I like the way that Ilya Dawes, you know, in in the book
It's much less nuanced a relationship that Ilya has with his father. I've noticed. I think this is one of Jacob Turny's better improvements. That Ilya is very torn about his father in the show. Like he loves him. You can tell he loves him in the show. That he wants to make him proud. He is, you know, changing himself, they adapt to him, and there is
Like obviously he hates the way that he behaves. It's very hate love. typical of, you know, a child that is being raised by an abusive parent and that child still, despite all that they've been put through, wanting their love. which is very human and very realistic. And so the book is a bit more clean cut. Iliad doesn't like his father, he hates his father.
He is sort of waiting for his father to die. and he obviously is feeling complex emotions about that, but you get the feeling that it's not quite as devastating for Ilya that the father is dying, more so that his family is a fucking mess and he has no idea what they think of it.
Silvan (49:53)
I love that point because that's why as a reader you're not that emotionally invested. Because neither is Ilya.
Declan (50:02)
No, he's not. And I think Jacob Tierney has zeroed in on that, that how do we get the audience to be emotionally invested in this big change for Ilya? Like this loss of his father, like how does that play off with the loss of his mother and this relationship with his brother? He's gone, Well, obviously I'm going to need the audience to know that Ilya cares about his father and then that will give it more emotional weight and so we'll care more whenever
He dies. I'm guessing that. But it would make sense given that he has developed that relationship out. He's taken time to insert more scenes, more dialogue, more interaction, a meaningful interaction that actually matters to the plot. so yeah, I don't think it's it's a coincidence that he's taking the time to flush that out.
Silvan (50:54)
And to your point in the very next chapter, so in chapter 19, we find out Ilya's father's died. And we find out in a very similar way to how we find out in the TV show in that there's that locker room scene and they're like, did you hear about Rosanoff? And then Shane goes off and calls Ilya and Ilya sort of very matter of fact.
However, one huge difference, and I know you've talked about this when we were reviewing the TV show, there is no monologue here. There is no Russian monologue from Ilya. The conversation still happens on the phone between them, but Rachel Reed does not have what Ilya says in very much depth.
in the way the TV show does. And so I was reading this like, where's the monologue? Why isn't there a monologue here?
Declan (51:49)
Yeah.
This is shameful.
might help you answer that question. This book is about Shane. It's about his coming out, his acceptance of himself, his willingness to sacrifice to be in a relationship with this guy you shouldn't be with. And it's Shane's book. And so we get it from Shane's perspective, these big pivotal moments. and that's why we don't understand what Ilya is saying. Because
Dramatically, it would be better to hear this from Ilya's perspective. Like if we knew that Shane is never going to understand any of this, but I'm gonna say it anyway, just to get it off my chest. And then you get the diet, you get the like monologue, his love confession, his bleeding heart, his his confession of everything that's going on. And imagine the weight of that had been done.
Fully and completely from Ilia's perspective.
Silvan (53:03)
This is where, and I know you just said this is Shane's book. And yes, I agree. However, Rachel Reed flips who's the narrator of each chapter. It's more or less equal-ish. She picks the wrong character to narrate the chapter. We do not need to know what Shane is doing and what Shane is thinking. Don't care what he's thinking right now.
Declan (53:16)
Mm. Yeah.
Yeah.
Silvan (53:32)
My heart is with Ilya what's happening to him?
Declan (53:36)
I honestly I had that that thought in my head as well whenever we were talking about, you know, why wasn't the monologue included? Like why did the show have to do it? And I think it's honestly just down to her inexperience at the stage of her writing. like go where the drama is, go where the stakes are highest, go where the emotion is, unless you have a dedicated purpose to not do it that way.
Whereas you're planning on a on a reveal or something along those lines of what was actually said and what the other person experienced in that in that moment.
But if you're telling it present tense, we're not re-exploring this moment from another character's perspective. Choose the more interesting character to perceive this from. but yeah, obviously Jacob Tierney noticed that.
Silvan (54:36)
And thank god he did!
Declan (54:38)
Now we're doing the monologue from Ilya's perspective. just funny in the show the focus is completely on Ilya. Completely. It's him. It's him in this tunnel, bleeding his heart out to this man that he's in love with, and he's doing it all in Russian, where the tragedy is that Shane doesn't understand a word that he's saying. That's the great tragedy of what's happening within the scene. It's sad, it's emotional and emotive and
entirely like full of yearning. So it is why isn't it in the book?
Silvan (55:18)
And to
your point, like where Rachel Reed sometimes doesn't lean into where the dramatic points are, it's the equivalent of when you're learning to be a therapist and you're being shadowed or your sessions are being recorded. It's to me, this is the equivalent of someone saying something really emotionally heavy and you not following that up as a therapist.
Declan (55:43)
Yeah,
it's is this why it bothers us?
Silvan (55:46)
Maybe because it's like if someone just told you something really heavy and you're like, tell me more about that. Tell me how you're feeling. You just skip to the next topic.
Declan (55:52)
Like yeah, like
yeah, like speak more on that. Like what what were you feeling in that moment? Like what like how you did you experience that? What was your body like when you found that out? Like how you d did you feel that reaction even through you? Like, my god, there is so much to know and so much to learn. But obviously that's not the way it goes. It's it's it's Shane's book, it's Shane's perspective. It's it
Silvan (56:15)
No.
Yeah.
Declan (56:21)
Him that is coming to terms with the love that he has for this man, and it's not empty of meaning either, the way that Rachel writes it, because it's Shane there to offer comfort because he doesn't understand what's going on. Sometimes he doesn't, but he is going to be there for Ilya in the only way that he knows how, which is to just listen. And he authors comfort.
using all the tools that he has available to himself, which is not much unfortunately. And he gives it all to Ilya to use however he wants. And that in itself is an incredibly sweet gesture. not obviously the drama that we were looking for, but it is still very sweet and it's indicative of his growth as well.
Silvan (57:11)
It's a quiet moment for me that Shane authors to Ilya and Rachel herself writes, the next several minutes were filled with Ilya's voice, sounding more animated and flustered than Shane had ever heard him. He's speaking Russian. Of course he's gonna, this is where you get him being animated and in a way that you can only do if you're in your mother tongue, for example. And, and.
for me, I like that she says that because we need to know that. And we see that in the TV show. We see him, the cadence rising and the breaths and everything in that tunnel. And maybe we should just be grateful that we got that TV adaptation where we are, where we get Connor Story acting that out.
Declan (58:01)
Yeah, because that for me was like a Emmy winning episode. Like that's that performance from Connor's story was fantastic. It was so demanding, a very demanding family because Connor's story is not Russian. He did not know how to speak Russian before this show. And yet he is like introducing so much emotion into his monologue. It's he
speaking as if he fully understands what he's saying and what words are coming out and he's putting all the thought and feeling into how he performs it. And it's fantastic. It's so impressive that he's able to do this. Like completely Emmy worthy. Fantastic like so good.
Silvan (58:51)
where you've got Russian people watching it thinking, damn, this is actually pretty spot on. This boy from Texas just blew everyone away with his Russian accent.
Declan (59:05)
Yeah. And I like the Connor I think it was Connor Story or or one of the production crew was talking about how they did actually have like Russian speaking actors during the Moscow scene. and they were genuinely convinced that Connor Story was Russian, like Russian American. And he was like, No, I don't actually speak it now.
Silvan (59:31)
Right?
Right?
Declan (59:33)
Which is
just it's just brilliant. It's it's so such a funny detail. but a testament that that has that has talent. Maybe maybe it's talented languages, maybe multi talented.
Silvan (59:45)
I think there's an interview where Connor's story speaks a little bit of French in an interview and Hudson is sort of looking at him like, well, you speak French? So I think maybe Connor just has this thing for accents. But speaking to what you were saying before about sort of how you present different versions of yourself, there's some writing here that sort of really hits home on that.
Rachel Reed writes, without the ability to translate any of it, Shane could just enjoy the sound of Ilya's voice, which he barely recognized now. The words are so quick and confident, unrestricted by Ilya. And I wonder here if there is a version of Ilya that Shane doesn't see because Ilya doesn't let him. And it just made me think that there is a whole other side to Ilya that we as a reader aren't being tapped into either.
Declan (1:00:38)
Yeah, and this I think goes down to the fact that English is not his first language, and he's been shown from early in the book to struggle to communicate. and there's a lot of anxiety in trying to communicate in a way that you're not comfortable with or confident in. And so you are gonna be very particular about the way you speak and very cautious about the way you speak, and so there isn't much room.
for you then within that within that communication way. and I've dealt with clients like that who like struggle to communicate in a certain method or in a certain way. and it causes them like really, really intense anxiety because they're they're really anxious that they're not going to be understood and that they'll be embarrassed and they'll not be able to perform at you know the
the the height of performance that they want to be at. and so yeah you can imagine it's very hard for Ilya like and not to mention that English and Russian are very, very different languages, different alphabets, like different letters. Like you can imagine it being extremely difficult to learn in the first place, but also to accurately communicate with someone that's you know
doesn't understand your mother language, like it it must be so difficult.
Silvan (1:02:08)
And I think the sentiment in both of these, sort of the perceived monologue in the book, but the actual monologue in the TV show, I think the ending and the sentiment is the same. So in the book we get Ilya's sort of reflection on saying something along the lines of, Ilya slipped into a, and on top of everything, I'm pretty sure I'm in love with you and I don't know what to do about it. So I like that we still get that.
ending bit to it because that stays consistent between the two.
Declan (1:02:38)
Yeah.
Yeah, that's I suppose that's the most important message of all is that that is what Ilya is trying to communicate, but he can't. And he's still cautious of Shane's reaction. his life is a mess. He doesn't know if he wants to stay in Russia, he doesn't know whether or not there's anything to pursue in this relationship. If he exposes himself then he closes off that door forever.
so yeah, there's a lot at stake for Iliot. He's dealing with a lot. Like this would be
Enough to really send someone in the depressive spiral. A hundred percent. Th this this like consecutive series of events unfolding in someone's like, losing your father who you had a very complicated relationship with, being in love with someone that you cannot publicly acknowledge, risking everything, your culture, your your homeland, for
A relationship that may not be reciprocal and dealing with the emotions of being in love with someone at all. Like what do you do with all that all at once? Literally? and by the way, your brother's also trying to wrench you for money. Like God.
Silvan (1:04:09)
Yeah.
And they haven't even said, love you to each other yet. mean, granted, Ilya said it in Russian, but also to add to your point for Ilya, but also to feel deserving of that love in return. It's so important. I want to shift gears a little because in the same chapter,
Declan (1:04:23)
Yeah, exactly.
Silvan (1:04:33)
What comes across in this book is Ilya is trying to get to know Shane and it feels like Shane is either not giving it to him or withholding or guarding perhaps. And you get this with the metaphor of Shane's home. Now we've spoken a couple of episodes ago about how Shane literally buys an entire fucking building to literally fuck in. And I know we had comments about this, but this is, I'm maintaining on this. I'm standing, this is a hill I will die on, but.
Declan (1:04:56)
Yep.
Silvan (1:05:04)
there's this separation or this splitting that Shane does where his home, I feel, is very intimate or there's something that's been represented here. And within this chapter, Ilya almost uses this opportunity and says to Shane, tell me about your home, Hollander. He said in a tired voice, what does it look like? I try to imagine it.
Ilya is spending a lot of time imagining what Shane is like in his environment.
Declan (1:05:38)
Yeah, because he has a version in his head of Shane and what he's like. And he's just looking to confirm his suspicions. Like he wants to be a part of that world because that is Shane's safe space. It's his intimate space. It's where he can be himself. And Ilya wants to be in that space with him. He wants to know the real Shane. He wants to know everything about him. And so this little peek into his world is
A little door being left ajar for Ilya to be like, what's going on in here? And to be there with him, which is very, very sweet.
Silvan (1:06:16)
Yeah, and to your point, like from a psychodynamic point of view, there's this splitting that I see happening here, right? And when I read the line where he says, tell me about your home, I underlined it and I wrote, what is this symbolizing? I don't think he wants to know about his home. I think he wants to know Shane more. He wants to go deeper with Shane. This isn't about his home. This is about Shane.
Declan (1:06:38)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Tell me what makes you feel safe. What makes you feel relaxed? What makes you, you know, feel at ease. Like what where's your comfort? Where's your safety? Tell me all about it. What what what does it look like to you? That's a that's a very intimate question to ask somebody and load it with meaning.
Silvan (1:07:08)
it is meaningful and Ilya is asking for that and I mean very superficially it reminds me of that you know there was this TikTok that went viral about like a couple regardless of their sort of gender identification where one goes I want to crawl inside of you and crawls inside of their t-shirt I don't know if anyone will remember that it was a while ago this is what I mean he wants to be so into Shane he wants to know Shane so much that he's like tell me
Tell me what your home is like.
Declan (1:07:39)
Yeah, I'm obsessed with you. You literally tell me everything about you. Like I wanna be in your skin. Tell me all about it. Like if that's not the love you have, then you're not doing it right. You should want to body snatch your partner, like
Silvan (1:07:41)
Bye.
Yes!
Yeah, and there is this sort of back and forth here. And we see this even later on in the chapter where they talk about some of the books that they're reading. so I think Shane is reading sort of this book about sort of the 1972 Canada-Russia series. And Ilya says, like, do you read books that are not about hockey? And then Shane says, sometimes. I mean, no, not very often.
Ilya says you're obsessed and Shane says of course I am aren't you and then here's the kicker Ilya says maybe in a different way.
Declan (1:08:37)
Right. Okay. I have been saying this since the beginning. Ilya likes to win. Ilya likes winning more than he likes hockey. I'm telling you, that is true. A hundred percent. He likes to excel at something. He is super competitive. And honestly, if you had him playing football or something like that instead, Ilya will be just as passionate about it as long as he's winning. And so winning is very important to Ilya.
Remember that.
Silvan (1:09:09)
Yeah. And you have been saying this literally since we started the TV show version of the podcast way back when now, it feels like a complete lifetime ago. And you always maintain the position of it's not necessarily about the hockey. Hockey was a way out for Ilya. Hockey was just something Ilya just happened to be good at. It could have been anything else and it would have had the same effect
because later in that chapter, Shane says hockey has always been everything to me for as long as I can remember. And then Ilya says it has been for me as well, but more like an escape.
Declan (1:09:46)
Yeah. Yeah. For Ilya, this is like just a tool of distraction, you could almost say. I'd say he does have a love and a passion for it. Like I don't think he he just plays it for the sake of it. I think he does genuinely get enjoyment out of the experience of playing hockey. but I do think that what he enjoys more is the distraction and the winning. which is interesting because this is a love story.
It's a romance. and the idea of a romance is that you find someone that loves you more than anything else in the world. Ilya's love, current biggest love, is escapism. Shane's is hockey. One is much better and easier to let go of than the other. I would say letting go of the escapism whenever you have something better. Like
I don't know, a boyfriend who loves you to the moon, someone you can spend your entire life with and who makes you happy every single day that you're alive? Or the professional sport that you've given all meaning and purpose in your life to? Like, are you giving that up for somebody? Would you would you give it up for somebody? And that will be an interesting dynamic that they will have to figure out in later entries.
Silvan (1:11:15)
I love it. I love it. And there's one final thought about this chapter before we wrap up that I was thinking about. Now, here we get the introduction of the conversation from Ilya about sort of getting married to somebody like for the green card kind of thing. Now, this conversation doesn't happen until much, much later in the TV show. think it's in episode six. They're on the couch and they're playing like footsie.
Declan (1:11:23)
Mm-hmm.
Silvan (1:11:43)
And so it's interesting that this gets brought up a little earlier, but in the way that it does, because Shane's immediate reaction is, you should come to the cottage this summer. Now, when I read that, was like, I felt like I just had a whiplash. I'm like, wait, the cottage happens this much sooner, but it doesn't. It comes in a little bit later, but the introduction of the idea of the cottage happens sooner, which I think is actually a really nice touch.
Declan (1:12:09)
Hmm. Cause it's shame being like, hold on, hold on, hold on. You may have an alternative. You may have an alternative. I might offer you an alternative. Here's the alternative. You don't need to marry the girl. And it's it's funny that that's the that's what triggers him to finally go, my god, no, wait, you can't leave. Okay, you can't we haven't even sorted this thing out yet. No, no, no, no. You're not marrying anyone. Come to the cottage with me. Let's let's try some things out. Let's see what happens. It's done out of like panic.
I think I think it's a it's a panic response. It's like, no, you can't marry anyone. No, no, no, no, no, no. We need to try this out first. And so Shane is like it's almost as if Shane sees Ilya's suggestion as like, my god, he's not getting enough from me. Like, I'm not giving him enough of me for him to even consider me. And so he's like, Have it all. Like, here. Take my take my safe space, take my
Take my everything here. The cottage. The cottage. My favorite place in the world. Here. You're coming with me. Let me show you my favourite place. Let me show you everything that matters to me. That is a meaningful gesture to you could say distract Ilya from the idea of marrying someone else.
Silvan (1:13:31)
That's an interesting take because I had a slightly different take on that. What I took from that was I'm losing him. He's going to marry someone, he's going to live with them, he's going to have this whole entire life with this potentially, I a woman, you know, and maybe even kids, and I'm going to lose him forever. And I felt like this was Shane's way of like throwing something at the wall to see if it sticks.
Declan (1:13:51)
Yeah.
Yeah, and that also reads right as well. That that seems like like a good interpretation of it too. 'cause that it makes sense. Because let's not forget, these two cannot communicate to save their lives. Cannot. So Shane really has no idea what Ilya's thinking at all. He doesn't know what they think he thinks about their relationship,
Silvan (1:14:24)
And it's a natural response, I think, when you feel like you're losing someone, you're like, okay, I'm all in here. Take this, take this, let me offer this. I wanna keep you, so take what you want and let me offer you something because that's what you do, right? You throw someone a lifeline, you throw someone a rope.
Declan (1:14:33)
Yeah.
Declan (1:14:43)
So we're going to stop there then. guys, thank you so much for joining us again so if you are enjoying this, make sure you like. don't be afraid to subscribe and to share this as well.
we actually have a book club, if you're not already aware. it's on Fable. It's called The Long Game Book Club. But
That's all for now and we'll see you next time.