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Welcome to The Politics Chicks—two chicks who care about politics, people, and making sense of the mess with a side of laughter and heart. We host a progressive political podcast breaking down current events, policy, and culture with sharp commentary, humor, and real conversation.
Christy: Welcome to the Politics Chicks Podcast. I'm Christy Branham
Monica: And I'm Monica Healy.
Christy: Today's episode is one we've honestly wanted to do for a long time, Because there's a conversation happening in America right now about Christianity, politics, power, and identity, and a whole lot of people are struggling to separate what is actually faith from what has become political branding.
Monica: Americans, the word evangelical no longer brings to mind compassion, humility, grace, or service. It brings up MAGA rallies, culture wars, Christian nationalism, and political extremism.
Christy: And whether that's fair or not, that perception exists for a reason. So today we wanted to have a real conversation, not a debate clip, not a viral gotcha moment, but an honest discussion about what evangelical Christianity historically was, what it's become, and where it goes from here.
Monica: And today's guest is someone Christy has actually known personally for more than 26 years.
Christy: Steve Young is not just our guest today, he is our neighbor. Our kids grew up together. Over the years, we've had a lot of thoughtful, sometimes difficult, but always meaningful conversations about faith, spirituality, Christianity, Christian nationalism, and the way that MAGA has increasingly co-opted parts of evangelical culture in America. Steve serves as one of the pastors at Grace Point Church in the Twin Cities area and has spent decades working in ministry, leadership, mentoring, and higher education.
Monica: One of the reasons we wanted Steve specifically for this conversation is because he's someone willing to engage thoughtfully and honestly, even on topics that have become incredibly emotionally and politically charged. Steve, welcome to the show. We're glad to have you here..
Steve: Thank you. I'm glad to be here. Really.
Christy: So excited we could finally get you.
Steve: an important conversation, and it's, it's for all of us a journey.
Monica: Well, I, I told Christy yesterday when we were talking about it that, um, I, I grew up Catholic, as I mentioned, graduated from a Catholic high school, and, uh, for various reasons, I have sort of a viscerally negative reaction when I hear people talk about religion. But James Talarico is one that is a breath of fresh air, and Christy told me that you were going to be that breath of fresh air, so I'm looking forward to this.
So let's start here. Do you personally consider yourself an evangelical, and if so, why?.
Steve: Uh, I would say yes. Um, it's not been a comfortable term, uh, in recent years to embrace, uh, but I'm not willing to necessarily, uh, throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak, um, when it comes to, uh, kinda where evangelical, the term, the, uh, the understanding of it came from originally. Um, so yeah, it's, uh, there's a temptation to just say I don't even wanna be identified, um, because of some disagreement. But what it stands for for me, uh, and what I can use it for, uh, to in- to have these kinds of conversations, uh, that are really important, is, uh, so I would say yes, I still do, and, and that's kinda why..
Christy: And historically speaking, what actually is an evangelical? Because I think it's so convoluted right now that a lot of people just don't understand the fundamentals of it. And I think people would really appreciate having a better understanding of what it means to be an evangelical Christian..
Steve: Well, I mean, it, it really goes kind of back to the beginning of the Reformation with Martin Luther and, uh, what, what kind of played out from really classic traditional and historical evangelicalism is, relates probably four key tenets. One is, just really something that centers on the, life, death, and resurrection of Christ, uh, the gospel, the good news.
The, the very meaning of the word evangelical the derivative is a derivative out of the term good news or gospel. And there, there was a reason for that. So, so Jesus becomes the center of that, obviously. How we have personal experience related to that is part of that. Uh, certainly out of that flows a love, uh, which means activism.
It means, it means serving others, being a blessing of. Throughout scripture, we see the whole concept of being a blessing, and that's, it's hard to understand, uh, how to do that all the time, but that's, that's part of it. Obviously a, a really key one is a centeredness on the word of God, uh, that that becomes primary authority, which is what separates Protestants in some cases from, uh, like a, like Catholic movement, um, which I don't denigrate in any way, um, which would center.
Christy: Yeah, you're sitting here with two Catholics..
Steve: would center a lot more on, on tradition, which is not unvaluable, um, invaluable.
It's... But, but part of evangelicalism is a, is a embracing of, of the word as something that leads us, which is why the whole concept of what, where we're going with this becomes confusing it seems like we're not adhering to that very well sometimes..
Monica: Well, and let, let's get right down to that. Has the definition changed or do you think the culture around it has changed more than the faith itself?.
Steve: y- you know, it's interesting when you look at, you know, you-- I think originally you asked the question in the notes about maybe the past decade or couple decades, whatever. I would even go further back than that, I would say for the first, for its first 100-plus years, there were just ebbs and flows of what it meant when it, when we turned over into the 20th century. And from the perspective of more conservative individuals, you started having what, what some would refer to as a more liberal theology, and you got Darwinism and things that kind of, concerned more conservative evangelicals at the time. And so there was kind of a, that whole pendulum swing to a fundamentalist movement.
Um, the, the correction to that probably came about with people like, uh, Billy Graham and Carl Henry in the mid part of the 20th century and a little bit into the second part of the 20th century. And then you know, certainly from there, um, I, I think that brought some good, um, counterbalance to that.
Unfortunately, then you had the rise of, you know, Rush Limbaugh, Jerry Falwell Sr., that kind shifted it again, uh, in part as a result of concern about, uh, what they would see as more liberal theology, whatever. But I would say what's interesting is When you think about the merging with politics, what's fascinating is that actually started with a Democrat, Jimmy Carter, um,.
Christy: Wow, that's.
Steve: who publicly stated, "I'm, you know, born again."
I mean, he was a s- He, up to almost his death, was a Sunday school teacher for Southern Baptist church. Um, so... But from there, obviously, the embrace of how does this impact politics and the connection there, and we'll talk certainly more about why that is, uh, as we go with some of the other questions.
But, but it... I would say that I, I, I guess it has shifted. Some of that is just response to culture and perspective of how one sees culture, how one sees what's happening in the world, um, and that can be a very personal thing. We all have things we, we react to and respond to, but it can also happen on an, uh, organizational, uh, corporate level as well..
Christy: And you are a pastor, at a congregation. And when I asked you to come on this podcast, we had a really interesting conversation about what it was like to be a pastor in an evangelical church right now, given how politically charged that word has become. So I would love if you would share some of that, because I think it's, it's-- A, it's very enlightening, but also it's interesting, and it helps to show that there's definitely a contrast that maybe a lot of us are not seeing, that maybe we should be seeing between what a true evangelical is and what a, Christian nationalist is.
So.
Steve: Yeah. And for me, uh, ministry, you know, I'm, I'm just a people developer. I, I like to see people grow in different ways, and so being a pastor is part of that. It's, um, recognizing that, for, for many of them, having a spiritual foundation is a significant way to grow. So I just kinda naturally love to be with people and to engage with them, and, so that keeps me kinda healthy no matter what their perspective is, no matter how they're have different views from me, because we can always ask questions of one another.
Um, so that part I love. Uh, when it comes to just, uh, people beginning to kind of, as I say, choose teams, um, which for me is, is not about growth, because it all of a sudden you stop asking important questions, you stop thinking critically, you just kinda go with the flow. And that's not been easy, uh, as, as a pastor, when people just all of a sudden dig in.
And, uh, pretty soon it becomes less about following their faith convictions or their, kind of living out what they see as like what Jesus called us to do, and more about choosing a team and just sticking on that side. So from my perspective, it becomes more about, more about your faith, um, following from a political viewpoint rather than your faith informing a political viewpoint.
Or, or no matter what that viewpoint is, but at least having that kind of a starting point. So, so it's been hard for me in that regard when people stop reflecting, when they stop seeking. Seeking's an important word for me. Seeking understanding, seeking wisdom, and for me that comes through listening to the, to the Holy Spirit, listening to the word of God, listening to each other, um, and instead just taking a stance..
Christy: I love what you just said about your faith following as opposed to your faith informing. I think that, that you hit the nail on the head.
Steve: But I think it's about-- It, uh, I, I kinda use putting on glasses as a, as a so many, um... It, it, it can be confusing language, but we talk, you know, one of the Jesus' primary themes was speaking about the Kingdom of God, which is about the rule and reign of God, not our rule and reign. And that's, that can be confusing and theological and all that.
But so often what has happened in these days is Christians put on their political lenses to see the Kingdom of God, and that incorporates the all that Jesus taught and said and did, versus putting on the kingdom lenses first and letting that filter out to how do I engage with my neighbor who has a yard sign that I don't like?
And so I'm gonna develop a perspective of that person rather than, because of my political lens rather than putting on the kingdom lens says, "I wonder what makes that person tick. I wonder what makes them think that way. I should ask some questions. I should get to know them.".
Monica: I, I like that, that you are framing this in terms of curiosity, uh, rather than, uh, authoritar-.
Steve: Yeah..
Monica: Um, my mom passed away a little over a year ago, and she was a devout Catholic to the very end of her life. But in 2016 and 2020 and 2024, she was very upset that the Catholic Church was leading the congregation to vote in a certain way.
And I appreciate that it sounds like that is not your perspective as a pastor to try and guide your congregation in one way or another from a political.
Steve: it, it certainly is happening in a number of evangelical churches, uh, around. Um, we don't do that here at our church, even though we're conservative evangelical. Um, I might be less so than others. Um, I don't think that's our job. I think our job is to help people see the Word of God, listen for how God's leading them in their life, and have important conversation and make decisions out of that, and, uh, trust their leading on which candidate they feel led to vote for.
I, I'm, I'm greatly concerned when, when pastors stand up and simply tell people who they should vote for or else... I mean, that's the equating of being a Christian with being on a political side, and that, that's just nonsense to me..
Monica: Uh, how do you feel about that connection between e- evangelicals and MAGA politics? Because they seem to be inextricably linked.
Steve: Yeah. Uh, well, I would say it's less so than people think. There certainly is, you know, probably, what, maybe a quarter of the population that is evangelical, uh, that would declare themselves that, whether they're practicing or not, going to church or not, whatever. Um, maybe a third of that group, um, that would...
A third of kind of white evangelicals that, or, or just evangelicals in general that would identify with, kind of MAGA. Maybe it's more than that. Maybe it's more like 50%. Um, when I look at... I, I think I was just thinking about this question related to my own church and just thinking about how I've walked around this place, the people I've had conversations with, and even what I've observed.
And I think about the fact that in all my years here, especially the last five years when things have really brewed, last 10 years, whatever, I think I've seen one time where somebody had a MAGA hat on. That was it. Um, there are some churches you'd probably see it regularly. People would wear that stuff proudly. There are... If I stopped and had conversations with a number of our folks, who are just some really wonderful people, they may have some differing viewpoints on things than I do. We may be in a lot of gray area together. But I I would venture to say most of them would say, "I'm not... You know, I get some of the MAGA stuff, but I'm not really, I don't really align with that directly."
Now, granted, we're in Minnesota as evangelicals, so there is an influence that is more educated in some regards. Uh, so there's a, there is, there's geographic differences related to this. I think you'd find.
Christy: And we have an o- an overall more liberal culture.
Steve: Yeah,.
Christy: Like even if you're super conservative, the bar for that conservative is just a touch higher than if you were in like, you know, South.
Monica: the Deep South. Yeah.
Christy: yeah.
Steve: and I, I would just say right off the bat, The, the, the association with the MAGA movement is, is very sad and disappointing to me, because again, it's about, it's about being a part of a movement and letting that define how you engage with the world rather than-- 'Cause that's a diversion from who one says they are.
They say, "Well, I'm evangelical, which means I, I, I base my life on what Jesus taught. I base my life on the word of God." Now, there's obviously lots of confusion in there as to what exactly we're supposed to, how we're supposed to engage with the world, but we are supposed to. And this is where I, I mean, I differ with, with Talarico on some things, but what I love about him is, that he, he most noticeably, lives out, what he's talking about when it comes to, uh, loving your ne- I mean, love is just his whole emphasis on loving your neighbor, and we talk about that all the time in the church, but do we do it well?
Not so much. Uh, we struggle with it in our own homes, our neighborhoods, whatever. But that perspective, it shouldn't matter what my neighbor thinks about my differing view on big issue. I should be able to engage with in some way. So I'm very saddened by that so many evangelicals have allowed to Fox or any news station or whatever decide how they should respond to people, the, uh, politics of fear and it just goes against everything , um, that we should be as, as believers.
I mean, even the Bible says, you know, uh, that we're, we're not to be... I mean, fear is a natural response, but we're not to be full of fear of the people around us. I mean, if we're going to heaven, why are we worried? Um, uh, I could go tomorrow, I'd be just fine. I'd be sad for my family and my friends, but, you know, I.
Monica: What do you think, what do you think has drawn evangelicals to the MAGA
movement?.
Steve: I, I, I would say that gi-- you talked about before, culture change. When I talk to some of our folks at the church, especially older folks, they just, they're in a world they don't understand anymore. They grew up a certain way. They had a certain mindset, work well for their families. Things like sexual revolution and all that. There, there's been this evolution of things that have, that are just so different from them, and trying to figure out is that right or wrong or different? And I was told I wasn't supposed to be like th- you know, there's just, there's that fear factor.
There is that, I don't think we're doing this right, and if there's so much anxiety in the world and depression in the world and all that, something must not be right. And so if we just went back to w- the way we were before. And so I think there is that response, that knee-jerk response. It's kinda like the beginning of when liberal theology started coming in and Darwinism and all that, and so there was a response.
Let's, let's literalistic, um, when it comes to the Word. Uh, I, I, I think it is a lot of that. It's just response to a world that they don't know how to navigate. Plus, you begin to sense that you were once the center of society. You were, the church was the center of, of, of the world, of the, of the city, of the town, of And then when the church gets moved off to the side, you don't know what to do with that. It should be a great.
Christy: Yeah.
Steve: uh, because you get a chance engage people a whole lot different, a whole lot more. You, you're able to ask questions people aren't just assuming who you are. Um, you get a chance to engage much And I think being shifted to the outside of society, uh, a bit, and yet that isn't that interesting though, because the grappling then is for power. If there's one thing that Jesus was not about was power. Um, he was.
Christy: Yeah.
Steve: power as it relates to the power of God that to do great work in our lives, but not in conquering one another..
Monica: Well, he would've been considered a, a raging liberal, uh, by today's standards, and I think it's interesting that so much of the push for, for the MAGA movement revolves around the Old Testament. They call themselves Christians, but they don't quote the New Testament. They don't quote Jesus. There's a push for, you know, having the Ten Commandments in, in schools, but where is the actual Christianity?
So.
Christy: Quoting Leviticus.
Monica: where are you.
Steve: look what, look what Hegseth does when he, you know, stands up and tries to give... You know, he, he's from Forest Lake here. Did you know that?.
Monica: Yes. We don't wanna claim him though.
Christy: billboard. There's.
Steve: Oh, is it really? I didn't know.
Christy: that says "Impeach him." Yeah.
Monica: Oh, I love that.
Steve: feel bad for his family, huh?
In the Old Testament, that is what's interesting, is, is the even the whole Christian nationalism, what Hegseth's do- everything hearkens back to the Old Testament. Very little do they quote from the New Um, and, uh, that's concerning, especially as an evangelical. Um, it ought to really concern evangelicals that, that we're not centering on and what he showed us..
Monica: of Christianity.
Steve: Yeah, right..
Christy: And with this whole thing with, with, you know, saying Sharia law is coming to America or, you know, even ev- I've had-- Growing up Catholic, I've had Protestants say that Catholics worship idols because we pray to statues, which is entirely untrue. It's just.
Steve: Complete misunderstanding..
Christy: Exactly. And I kind of feel like MAGA, it's almost like a militant attitude, and instead of internalizing their faith, they wear it like armor. Does that make any sense? So this is like part of their identity. So it's like they've got their Boy Scout vest on, and they've got their patriotism badge, and then they've got their Christianity badge..
Steve: of if, if you're a, if you're a hammer, then everything around you looks like a nail, you know? It-- So you're ready to go at anything, and if you're wearing protective armor, you're, you're completely on defense.
Christy: Well, and what, what I see is that they, uh, what they're doing is they're creating enemies because they, they need to have, as you said, pick teams. And so their team is the right, the right team, um, because they're Christian. And what they've done now is created this culture of they're trying to replace us.
They're trying to displace Christianity in this country with Islam, with Hinduism, with you name-- you add the religion into the
blank..
Steve: where actually, that's where I was going with the whole mission movement comment is some ways it's like God said, "Okay, well, you know what? How about, uh, instead of you having to always go there, what if we bring them here and then you embrace them, have good conversation with them, share with them what you believe, uh, engage and see where it goes from there?"
And what is there instead, pushback. Like, "Okay, God, I didn't really want you to bring them all here." But it's like, o- That's what's really funny to me is it's like a great opportunity not to be, trying to go attack those who are, and say, "You gotta believe what I believe," but instead to like, okay, here's...
Just, just like when a m- uh, a missionary goes to another culture, the best way is to live there for a while, embrace the culture, make sure, understand the connections, build relationships. That's what it should be right here without having to go overseas, having to... I- i- it's a great opportunity I, Pam and I were just in Copenhagen.
My wife's a flight attendant. We were just in Copenhagen. We were walking down the street. There was a big display, Muslim display. They were witnessing for Islam. So we stopped and we looked at the signs and just kind of curious what they were saying. And w- out of the corner of my eye, I see a guy kind of walking towards me like I was fresh meat.
And he started asking questions, and we told him kind of, I didn't really say what my position was or anything, just, just having honest conversation, and he kind of pursued us and, "Well, what about this? What about that?" And there were things we said about what we believe and our faith that I could see him visibly...
And it wasn't like we were trying to convince, we were just having conversation about our differing viewpoints of who Jesus is and, and just having that conversation. Because one of the things we said is, is, "You know, we just live with joy as a foundation of our, because we know where going, whether it's here or in the next world, whatever."
Um, he goes, "Well, how do you know that? How can you have that assurance? How do you..." You know, and just said that we kind of live on faith of that, and, uh, if, if it doesn't end up being another world out there, it's certainly impacting us now. We're still living with joy because we know what our foundation is.
And he was shaken by that. He was visibly shaken b- And it wasn't because it's Muslim versus Christian, it was just that engagement of conversation, I think, surprised him, that we were willing to be Christians and not be on the attack, but to just have great conversation. And that's what it should be here..
Monica: Well, man, that is sorely lacking in the discourse amongst our people.
Steve: And it's sad that our, our national leaders don't model great discourse in anything hardly. I, I love the, I love the old guys in Congress who say, who say, "You know, we used to be able to fight on the floor and then go have a beer together." Now they can't even do that.
Monica: No.
Steve: you're, then you're possibly giving the other team a, a win.
Um, that's sad.
Monica: And I kept saying as a, as a teacher, it, it was so hard to try and convey to my students that the number one rule that we have is to be kind when everything that is modeled from our leaders is the exact opposite of that. It's very disheartening..
Steve: Yeah. Yeah, very much so.
Christy: And circling back to that Pete Hegseth comment, I, I have a huge issue with him praying at the Pentagon publicly as part of a government event, not because I'm opposed to Christianity. I f- I fundamentally am Christian. That is, I'd consider myself to be a Christian. Um, but I do have an issue, especially with the Secretary of Defense holding up his faith as, as a weapon of war and turning f- his faith into politics.
I think that is part of the problem that we have, is that people are taking-- They're misconstruing what their moral compass should be as their ticket to rightfulness, if that makes any sense. I don't even know if I phrased that the right way, but I find that problematic.
Steve: Yeah. Well, it's obviously part of the, the whole Christian kinda nationalism conversation the, uh, permission that people give themselves as a part of that. You know, there, there's, there's place for, you know, part of, part of what we were built on in America was Christians could bring thoughts to the public square, non-believers could bring thoughts to the public square, uh, people from other faiths could bring thoughts to the public square, and we good debate and conversation and, uh, that's what made us good.
And, um, and then so there certainly is a place for religion to be part of the public square. It's just when it's, when, when there's, uh, permissions taken that, uh, out of a thought that, well, what we're created to be here in America, and this is why it goes back to the Old Testament, because in a sense, there's almost a feeling you get that they were the, that we're like the second group of chosen people.
Um, that it starts with Israel and, uh, that experiment's done with, so now it's America, and somehow we get to be the beacons to the world of Christian faith. And that's just not how it... You know, a- as a Christian pastor, do I hope there's good influence in society? Of course I do. Um, but I'm not sure that h- happens by, uh, grabbing power and, assuming that America was created as the next experiment, uh, of God's chosen people.
Um, especially now that really where the, if you really look at where the evangelical movement and it's in other parts of the world more than it is here at this point. Uh, we may be getting influence back from those folks, uh, showing how it's best done than what we're making it out to.
Monica: you best differentiate between Christianity and Christian nationalism?.
Steve: Mm-hmm. Well Christianity, uh, is a... Number one, it's not a, it's not a label. Christianity is a lived out, um, it, it's a, it's a centering on the, uh, the person and work of, of Christ and, uh, what He calls us to. And, and did He call us to gather so that we're in kind of groups that look like organizations like churches?
But that was just because we're to be in a relationship with each other. We're to help each other out. We're to under-undergird each other. But it was never intended to be a, a power move on a national level. I mean, look at, look at the experiment of Constantinople, um, what ha- what-- and what, uh, when Constantine became a Christian, and then it became all of a sudden...
I mean, that's what's happened obviously throughout much of Europe over the years and is, is a state religion that really has become... I mean, Pam and I visit places in Europe all the time, and all we see is empty churches and cathedrals. And, and it's a very sad thing because all of a sudden, it-- what, what became, what, what, what was stamped on as state religion,
It, it becomes more about power and dominance and very little about fruit of the Spirit, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, you know, the, uh, all of that. Instead, it becomes about who wins. Um, there's a Christian writer who's gotten a lot of flack, um, s- and very good communicator, Andy Stanley, uh, did a series during the election that I, I can't recall the...
But he's also got a book on it as well now, that basically he's saying his, his whole thing was challenging Christians to recognize that we're-- this isn't about winning. Um, Christian faith isn't about winning in society. It's giving up of ourselves, sacrificing ourselves for the sake of others, helping them to be able to explore life.
And what, what we do know a- and what we do stand on as Christians is that there is a way to experience greater joy, greater meaning, greater peace, and that's through not trying to achieve it ourselves and to constantly go after, um, the next thing that might make us happy, the next thing that might give us meaning.
We, we keep coming to the end of our rope, and we wonder why. And it's because none, no one of us or group of us, uh, can achieve that deepest meaning. Uh, it has to come from something beyond us. Well, that's faith. You know, that's why I'm a Christian pastor, because I believe that stuff, um, that, that there's impact there.
Do you speak to your congregation about the, the difference between Christianity and Christian nationalism? I do-- I'm not our, our primary sermon giver. I work with most of our, Christian education. I oversee our ministry staff. Um, so much of my work is like if I'm in a group of... Let me give you an example. If I'm in a group of, uh, like I'm-- I've got about 22 men that typically meet for, uh, a Bible study and just good conversation on Tuesday mornings.
Um, we're on a little bit of a break now. Something comes up like, um, uh, like the whole immigration stuff during the ICE period, and Obviously, a lot of them watching their news channels, that, that kinda teach them about what, how they should be thinking about that. And then I come back in and say, "Well, that's interesting because here's-- H-how do you match that with these particular scriptures that Jesus talked with us about?"
And it's not, again, about going one side or the other. It's h- we have to make that part of the equation. We can't just listen to see what, what any of the hyper-conservative news channels that are just making money off of you want you to believe. Um, it's come back, come put the kingdom glasses back on That's the kind of conversation I have And I, and I get people are mad. Uh, you know, one guy showed one video of, uh, maybe you're familiar, maybe you've heard the name Tim Keller before. Uh, if you have not, he's, he's, uh, he's, he's passed of cancer now, but, uh, made a significant impact, made a lot of people mad.
Um, pastored in New York City, uh, huge following, really challenged people with things 'cause he was ministering right in the heart of New York City. It's one thing to be out in rural South Dakota, grappling with big issues. It's another thing to be right in the heart of New York City, um,.
Christy: In the midst of poverty and people experiencing real.
Steve: So it's, it's, it's asking-- It-- Part of my role is trying to hold back the tide of what could take over our congregation. And for me, the best way to do that is through the indivi- I just had a conversation with a young man the other day, and he was talking with me about some things I said in one of sermons I was preaching on bless those who persecute you.
Not an easy thing for any of us to do. Um, uh, and some things I said were part of what we have remember as Christians, we're not-- This isn't about, grappling for power. It's when Jesus says, "Bless those who persecute you. Bless and do not curse"- It's about saying, "How do I bless those who are a- my enemies?
Who, who, who hold different opinions to me?" Um, so even the guy whose dog is walking-- He's walking his dog and poops in our yard and he doesn't clean it up, well, maybe, maybe I could still have a good conversation with that guy. Um,.
Christy: That's not us, by the.
Steve: No, it's not you. I know it's not you. But it's back to, uh, uh, to not... It's not about strong army. It's, it's about Being people who-- I-i-if we're really people of faith, I don't have to worry about that conversation that I'm gonna have with somebody who's really different from me. I can go into that. If I say, you know, as a Christian person, I say, you know, "I don't know how it works," but Jesus said before He left, said, "I'm gonna send you my Holy Spirit, which is like me, um, who will teach you and guide you."
Just listen, listen for how God is moving in your life and how He's... So if I'm really doing that, it's pretty rare that, that Jesus would tell me, that the Holy Spirit would tell me, "You know, go hate that guy." Uh, instead say, " You're a person of faith. God's bigger than any one of you, so go have that conversation.
Ask some questions." Maybe before you have the hard questions, maybe you just get to know the person. Treat them like they're made in the image of God, as scripture tells us, and recognize they're struggling just like you're struggling with trying to figure out life. So let's get to know each other.
Even if the person closes the garage door all the time 'cause he doesn't wanna see me. Maybe there's that one time I catch him walking down the street and I say hello, and then the next time I say, "Hey, how long you lived here? Hey," you know. It's just valuing people. That, that's what I do love about, uh, Talarico.
Even if we have some disagreements on things, the fact that it's, uh, there's that kind of engagement with one another. It's seeing each other differently.
Christy: And I, I just.
Monica: that's the basic tenet of every major religion around the world, whether it's Christianity or Judaism or Buddhism, is just be a decent human being, right?.
Steve: Yeah.
Christy: And I wanna throw out there because Steve and I are neighbors. We have the good fortune of living in a very diverse neighborhood. So at one point on my side of the street it went Jewish, Sikh, Hindu, Catholic, Jewish. On your side of the street it was Jewish-- Or I'm sorry, Christian. You guys are Christian.
Then the people next to you were Buddhist..
Steve: yeah. It.
Christy: Jewish?
Yeah. Yeah, Jewish. And then Buddhist, and then another Jewish
family. And we all used to barbecue together on holidays.
Steve: I'll never forget the time I looked out my front window and I saw Mandeep and, uh, who's Sikh, and, uh,.
Christy: Giant, giant.
Steve: Yeah. So there was a Jew, a Hindu, and a Muslim just having great con- or a Sikh, having great conversation. You know, just, just chatting, you know, having great conversation. Um,.
Monica: Just being people.
Steve: being people. Yeah. You know, and I, I guess that's this, the real...
When, when you... This sad thing for me with what's happened with so many, uh, evangelicals, and I would say I'm thankful that a number of our congregation members, And I would say a lot more than non-evangelicals or, or non-believers. What, I mean, people, what... As people peer into and they hear that term and they think about those people that call themselves evangelicals, uh, there can be a tendency to think they're all that way.
They're all MAGA. They're all wanting Trump. I, uh, there's very few people in my congregation that'd be comfortable voting for Trump. They probably did. If you ask them why, they would say, "Well, I guess I didn't feel like I had an alternative, and at least, at least he was holding up my movement. He was on my team. He might be a really bad coach, uh, or manager, but at least he's on my team." And my goal is to get them thinking beyond that team mentality. Uh, because, uh, one of the questions that, that we had in the show notes related to how in the world do Christians support a guy who has so many moral failings, so many moral failings?
And I ask that a lot because I've never supported Trump. Um, so I, in private conversations with people, um, will ask that question, and, uh, usually the response is twofold. "Well, I'm-- It's not like I'm asking him to be my pastor." Or my religious leader. So we all fail, he's just failing on a grander stage.
Um, was.
Monica: not what you want from the president of the
United States.
Steve: nope, you don't. And then, the other would be what I already said is that they just feel like they didn't, because of their fear of the other side, they feel like they didn't have an what gets me is like if, if Christians really wanted to have somebody represent them that was more like them, especially evangelicals, I keep asking the question, why didn't, why didn't you go full force after Mike, Mike Pence to any-- I mean, you know, he obviously is not perfect like, but, but he's a moral guy.
He's, you know, I, I've got plenty of disagreement with him, but he's, you know, he certainly is a better representative and he is respectful and, um, why didn't evangelicals go after him to be their representative? Well, guess what? 'Cause he doesn't have power..
Christy: Yeah.
Steve: Trump, with all his failings and his dumb comments and his lack of truth and all that, commands a power, and that's where many Christians are failing, emphasizing the importance of power.
And they do that because they think, "Well, at least we'll have potential influence." even if it's not about Christian nationalism, at least we'll be able to have, we'll be able to win back a hearing. We'll be able to force back a hearing. Shouldn't be that way..
Monica: That is such a cultural failing that they, people that are supposed to be looking after the least of, of their brothers are choosing power over people.
Steve: Well, the whole Sermon on the Mount is-- brings us back to heart issues. What was the term I heard, recently? Um, oh, I even pulled it out 'cause I was curious about it. I, I probably won't find it. But, um, really related to, Well, I know what it was. It's orth- there's orthodoxy, orthopraxy, so orthodoxy being a set of beliefs that you adhere to, orthopraxy being how you live those out, how you practice those, and then orthocardio was a term, and it's about how the heart is engaged with that.
It's,.
Christy: Oh, I like
that.
Steve: it, it flow-- I mean, Jesus said it flows from the heart. Um, and all of a sudden, Christians have decided they can't trust the heart anymore. Now, of course, yeah, the scripture also says from the heart, flows not great things. If there's a transformation, like we talk about in eva- you know, part of the idea of e- the evangelical experiment was that there would be transformation, conversion of, and that that would be, it might be a process, but of the heart, and it's out of the heart that we live out well.
Well, all of a sudden we've become less concerned about the heart and more concerned about the sword and power . And, uh, we, we mistrust that the heart can make a difference. And, uh, I-- at this funeral I was just at, uh, this woman loved to teach piano lessons. She would have kids in her house all the time teaching One of the sons read a letter from an across the street neighbor. They were neighbors for 16 years. This little girl was a timid little girl who would come over for piano lessons, and she said, "You know, your house was just always a place of peace. I just... And kindness. I just wanted to be there." Well, that girl's grown up to be a, a wonderful woman, has kids, who are followers of Jesus but her letter back to the family was, "You know what? We fight so hard to worry about trying to evangelize when just being a people of heart, being a people of kindness, being a people who love well, uh, speaks volumes." there's a place for words in conversation, but just how we love one another. Again, that's something I like about how Talarico is confronting, many Christian power mongers out there..
Christy: I'm gonna, um, circle back to the Reformation. We're gonna go back a little.
Steve: I'm not.
Christy: in time again, and.
Steve: Me neither.
Christy: I know, I know, but there's, y- it's-- we're only gonna be there for one second to talk about the fact that when Martin Luther started that whole movement, it was very iconoclastic, meaning they got rid of the statues, they got rid of the imagery.
The churches became very stripped down. There were no pictures or, or statues or any of those things in those churches because it was almost a revolt against the Catholic Church, who w- seemed so mired in these things. And when we think about that in the evangelical movement, and then we look at things like Trump posting himself pictured as Jesus or this god-awful gold statue that he built to honor himself, I know this is probably really difficult for you to, to wrap your head around as a practicing Christian who practices from the heart, like you were but let's talk about that a little bit, because to me, it almost seems like they've supplanted God and Jesus and kind of just, like, taken Trump and, like, stuck him in the middle of everything, if I'm not.
Steve: A deep, deep sadness about all that. And thankfully, that was, there's been plenty of evangelical leaders who have, been very uncomfortable with Trump and his leadership and what, I mean, the number of us who have said it's just, it, it just destroys our witness. And it destroys all that we say who we are, um, to be so supportive of this, this individual.
And, Fortunately, a number of leaders, I mean, this is like it kind of finally tipped over. It's like, this is crazy. This man is crazy. And, and the amount of... Yeah, I think the whole, um, the, that the whole image, the meme that came out with him, you know, and then he said, "Well, I'm actually was just being a doctor.".
Monica: I'm a doctor..
Christy: Right. Right. I remember that you and I-- You texted it to me when it came out and you said, "This can-- We can use this during the podcast as kind of like a point of reference.".
Steve: ten-- uh, the, the messianic complex, the-- I mean, it w- I mean, you could even take this back to the Old Testament, say Nebuchadnezzar, you know, the, when the people of Babylon erected his statue, and it's like, do we not see this? And I think, I mean, the, the, the amount of support, evangelical support for Trump is, is beginning to fade, thankfully.
Um, that is true, and I-- it's certainly kinda like a lot of senators right now. It's finally the opportunity to begin to say, "This is-- enough is enough." Um, it probably won't completely happen in the next two years, uh, until he's gone. My hope is certainly that, whatever Republican leader follows him, doesn't try to be that.
Um, and I'm independent. I'm not Democrat or Republican. I've been independent for years. I'm much more ready to listen and, uh, go with where I feel led to go with. Um, I think we need... I mean, any, any person that says we just need one party, uh, I mean, what would that lead us to? To n- to nothing.
Um, back on the whole,.
Monica: want, is one party. They want their party.
Steve: sure. And obviously there's extremes on the other side that would s- almost reflect that same thing. Um, and to, to completely dismiss, There's a many, many Republicans, I mean, I'm around them all the time, that really mourn where it has gone and have really no desire to be part of anything MAGA.
Um, and that, that makes me happy, that, that not all of my evangelical brothers and sisters, many of them are very discouraged about where things have gone and, uh, and, and they mourn that they maybe were a part of that. Um, and, uh... But that was,.
Monica: hearing some remorse from people for, for their vote?.
Steve: Absolutely. Um-.
Monica: And do you see a, a way out of this, a path through this where we can get to the other side and Christianity-- I, I think there are a lot of people in our country that have very negative connotations around Christianity because of the support from the, the super right.
Steve: Yeah. Yeah.
Monica: So how do we, how do we get through that?.
Christy: Yeah, and while you're explaining that, maybe you can, like, go into a little bit of nuance between what it means to be-- what the Christian movement is versus what Christian nationalism is, because I think that might help us understand it better too..
Steve: Well, there has to be just a change focus. There has to be a trusting we're not here to do-- and this'll actually sound kind of funny. We're not here to be God for the world . We're here you know, to live out some of the things He taught us to do, which it has a lot more to do with the fruit of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, pati-- you know, all the things we talked about before, uh, serving the poor, the alien in our world.
And, it, it's not that we're not to have laws and to, you know, I, I hear Christians just really wrestling with, "Well, I feel like we're supposed to at least have good laws." Like, what kind of a country would we be if just, we just open the door and everybody, and there was no sense of organization to that?
I think most of us would agree there's gotta be something there where we've gotten ourselves into a real mess with that. But at the same time, this is what I would often say to my people and my guys: "You can't let the struggle of something like crazy immigration," um, there need to be some correctives there, sure, but you can't let that shape how you see that immigrant.
You can't... I-if there's a problem with immigration, fine, let's work towards fixing it, but you can't let the problem, dictate how you see that person. Like, "Oh, they're just horrible. Why do they come in here?" You know, and treat them as if they're everything that Trump says they are, which they're not. Um, obviously there's a few bad apples, just like there's plenty of apples that already lived here.
Um, but you can't let that determine how you see people. Um, you see them as Jesus would see them, and then, and, and figure out how you serve well. I'm, I'm really proud of a number of churches, evangelical churches, that responded during the ICE, uh, and, and reached out to their neighbors, especially those in the city, and protected, and responded well.
So kinda getting back to-- That, that's not about Christian nationalism. That, that's about being Christian. That's about living my faith. It's not about trying to gain control over the whole public square. Um, it's about honoring the image of God in every person. A way forward I think people num- number one need to turn off their TV a lot more ..
Christy: Yeah.
Monica: Or a certain channel at
least.
Steve: Yeah, There,.
Christy: Yeah.
Steve: What s- what saddens me is a lot of, there are a lot of pastors who s- saw the, the struggle with this, didn't like the fact that Trump and Christian nationalism and even though their congregation was kind of trying to go that way, they would try to buck against that.
Well, a lot of them got relieved from duty, um, because they didn't toe the line. Uh, or a lot of them got relieved from duty for the opposite. They tried to bring it in and congregation said, "No, that's not what we're called to, to do and to be. We're called to be in the Word. Uh, Jesus said, "Seek me first."
Um, you know, "Seek my kingdom first," then everything else kind of flows from there. Um, not seek politics, not seek political viewpoints. Do we have engagement with the, uh, political square? Sure. Um, but that's n- not winning. Um, get, get, get out of your head that we have to win, um, and instead look at your neighbor. Who's around Um, where are you struggling to love maybe give, uh, yourself five minutes to put yourself before the Lord in the morning before you put yourself on the news channel or Facebook or whatever else. Um, just change your focus. And trust That if you say this is your faith, well then that's what it is.
It's faith. It's faith that God has his hand, over it all. When it comes right down to it, you don't have to do God's job for him.
Christy: Monica did a lot of outreach, um, participated in a lot of outreach stuff during-- when the operation was going on in Minneapolis. And a lot of the the mutual aid was based in churches..
Steve: Hmm.
Christy: I mean, you would go and you would pack meals, and they were, you know, putting together things to make sh- for families that couldn't leave home to shop.
And we see that is there, there is that foundation in the community. People can find that in their churches and in their faith. What is giving you hope for evangelical Christianity going forward? Because I saw that spark of hope during, Operation Metro Surge..
Steve: You know, when, when things bad, they have a tendency to fall apart on themselves. You at least hope they kinda do. And I think there's, people are beginning to see... I mean, I just look around my own congregation and I see how many of them are out in the community serving Feed My Starving Children, serving at a thrift store, I see what they do with each other.
They s- You know, someone has, uh, one of our elderly has a need, they just respond. They... That kind of thing. And, and to recognize that gives much more meaning and fulfillment than trying to just figure out this, " How do I stay on this team?" Or, "How do I figure out this political thing?" and I think there, I think there's an increasing number of people that are realizing that this is going nowhere in trying to do nationalism thing.
And I don't think we have many, uh, I don't think you'd find a whole lot of evangelicals in the Twin Cities. You'd find some big pockets, but, um, who are wholehearted Christian nationalists. They might, there might be a more of a civil religion kind of thing for them, but not a wholehearted, um, Christian nationalism.
And I think they're begin- I think there's an increasing number of people beginning to see that would be a completely failed experiment. It's gonna, it's gonna go on for a while, and the you know, Vance or whoever might try to keep that going. But, um, I think people are beginning to see the cracks. And my hope is that they'll come back to recognizing that it's much more about how we serve each other well, how we respond out of the heart and not out of what we're told to do because our coach from our team told us we're supposed to do that.
Um,.
Christy: Monica, you call it neighboring.
Steve: neighboring. Yeah. Absolutely..
Monica: and, and I, I hope you're right that that's, that's what we come back to because that, that is what the foundation should be, and we've-- it feels like we've strayed so far.
Steve: Yeah. Well, and we're in a, you know, we tend to... The interesting thing that the Bible teaches us is that things happen in big blocks of time. We're in an instance-- We live in an instant world, and so we, we don't let movements change and shift because we have 24-hour news cycles and we're in a, uh, you know, there's equilibrium to disequilibrium back to whatever is gonna be next.
Um, and I think we're in this period of disequilibrium that's gonna take some period of time to figure and I just hope believers trust their own faith to say, " I just need to be-- I just trust God's got His hand in it and He's gonna lead it well, and I don't have to do His job for Him, and I just need to listen and uh, it doesn't matter if somebody disagrees with me. We still have a voice and God loves that person.
Christy: you can disagree and then go have a beer with them afterwards.
Steve: I love that. I love that. Yeah..
Monica: Well, that, that's probably a, a great place to kinda wrap things up. Do you have any, any final words or things that you would want to say to Christians that are just kinda feeling exhausted about where we are right now?.
Steve: And I think many are, uh, feeling exhausted. Um, and, you know, any time you're trying to, swim upstream, and the upstream is not because you're swimming against your own people, it's because you're swimming against a, a direction that maybe you shouldn't be going. And, um, and going the whole nationalism powered politics is not the right way to go, but instead just loving well.
Christy: Well, Steve, thank you so much for being here with us today because we really appreciate both your honesty and your willingness to have this conversation and your candor. It, it was a great conversation. It was a hard conversation to have at, at points, but I personally got a lot out of it listening to your perspective.
So I really appreciate that.
Steve: Yeah. You're welcome. Pleasure to be here.
Monica: Why don't you tell our listeners where they can find you and learn more about your work, connect with GracePoint Church, and we'll make sure to include anything in the show notes.
Steve: Sure. Uh, GracePoint Church is in, uh, New Brighton. We are an evangelical church. Most of our people are fairly conservative, um, but not fundamentalist. Very loving people. Part of the reason we're growing is 'cause our people just care about each other. And, you could come in as a fully tattooed person and, not get bizarre looks at you.
Uh, so I, I love our people for the ways that they see people for who they are. Um, but GracePoint Church, New our email addresses are ridiculously long, so, uh, if you have any thoughts for me or questions, um, stevenyoung with a V, stevenyoung@comcast.net would probably be,.
Christy: And we'll put that in the show.
Steve: the easiest way to get ahold of.
Christy: thank you so much. This is one of those conversations where the goal isn't to tell people what to think. It was to encourage people to think more and ask harder questions, engage honestly and about what they believe and why. So I think this was a great, worthwhile conversation to have. Thank you.
Steve: Oh, it's a pleasure.
Monica: Faith, politics, identity, and power are all deeply personal things, and when we stop being willing to examine them critically, that's when we lose perspective. To our listeners, if you are finding meaning in the stories we're sharing, if something moves you, challenges you, or makes you see the world a little differently, please like, comment, and share.
It helps more than you know.
Christy: And follow us everywhere at the Politics Chicks on Substack, Threads, Blue Sky, Instagram, TikTok, and Facebook.
Monica: Thanks for being a part of our community. Keep shining your light so we can find each other in the dark.
Christy: And remember that we're stronger together. Thank you so much, Steve. Today was a great, great.
Steve: I imagine all of.
Christy: I'm excited. Yeah. Thank you. We'll see you next time..
Monica: Bye y'all.