Nilza Oyola, Executive Director of City to City Miami, describes how she helps Hispanic pastors root their ministry concretely in their local context through the community-based model of church planting and connect to a broader spiritual context by exposing them to the theological resources of Hispanic practitioners and thought leaders.
Christianity is declining in the West. How will the church respond?
Redeemer City to City's "How to Reach the West Again" podcast takes the insights of author and pastor Timothy Keller's book of the same name—and explores them in greater detail with a host of guest ministry leaders.
Join us as we examine ourselves, our culture, and Scripture to work toward a new missionary encounter with Western culture that will make the gospel both attractive and credible to a new generation.
Brandon O’Brien: This is How to Reach the West Again, a podcast that aims to inspire and empower a fresh missionary encounter with Western culture. I’m your host, Brandon O’Brien.
This season is all about cities—what are they? What does the Bible say about them? How do we plant churches there? What does it mean to love our cities?
Our guest today is Nilza Oyola. Nilza is Executive Director of City to City Miami and Program Manager for Iglesia Floreciente, an initiative designed to equip Hispanic churches to partner with their communities in pursuing the common good as a witness to the gospel message in the transforming presence of the Kingdom of God.
Before we jump into the conversation, I want to take a moment to zoom out and recap where we’ve been in the last couple of weeks.
This is the third episode in a row that we’ve dedicated to elaborating on the idea of contextual churches. Bishop Ray Rivera explained in Episode 4 that the context all of us minister in is the context of captivity. Coming to terms with that has implications for how we operate in our cultural context.
In Episode 5, Robert Guerrero explained the dangers of developing metrics and strategies for ministry in one context (the majority culture context) and then trying to apply them or hold people accountable to them in other contexts.
In today’s episode, Nilza Oyola describes how she helps Hispanic pastors root their ministry concretely in their local context through the community-based model of church planting and how she helps them connect to a broader spiritual context by exposing them to the theological resources of Hispanic practitioners and thought leaders.
So here we go.
Brandon O’Brien: Thank you so much for spending this time with us today.
Nilza Oyola: Thank you for inviting me.
Brandon O’Brien: You have church planting experience in New York City in the Bronx, and you're now involved in church planting in Miami.
Nilza Oyola: Yes.
Brandon O’Brien: Miami and New York City are very different kinds of towns. But what's similar to the experience of church planting in a city like New York and a city like Miami? What are some of urban ministry things that are true in both places?
Nilza Oyola: So when it comes to those two cities, they are similar in they're both have people that transition. There's movement parts going on. But they are different in the people that live around in the city. It's different. Miami is more multicultural, but has that Latino—I mean, 62% of it are Spanish-speaking. So when it comes to language and culture, although multicultural, you have Latino, a lot of Latin Americans live here apart from Cubans that make about 70% of the population here in Miami.
So it is more rich in terms of culture when it comes to the Latino, Hispanic. Versus New York, I think it is more international in that way. They have a strong Hispanic presence because New York, I believe, if I could get my statistical data right, it has the largest population of Latinos. But it is more, if I can use this term loosely, Americanized, if you will. It has adopted some of that culture. And versus here, being a Latino in Miami is very present. So those are the differences that I can say. And because of it, the way that you plant the church in New York, and the way you plant the church in here is totally different. Apart from the big, huge differences that here is more laid back, New York is go, go, go.
In here, you have to drive a car everywhere. Forget about walking. You also have the weather. Don't ever leave your house at 12 o'clock. I guarantee you, you will be dehydrated, versus in New York City, it's totally the opposite. And in some ways in New York City, when it comes to church planting, it allows for that community building. And I'm going to use that term loosely because some will argue that again, Miami, has that sense of community and culture.
But when you have to drive everywhere, it's less contact with people, versus when you take a train, and you're meeting people, and you're getting to know people's stories. When you go to the bodega in the corner, especially in an urban setting, you know the people in the bodega, or even in your local, a supermarket, and your neighbor. You got the housing projects and all these things are different. And you got people going in bicycle, always walking, all that at the New York City, the mission of New York City, it is different in here. And for me, was like a culture shock.
I thought because we were Latino, everyone would go, "kumbaya." And brother I tell you, I was surprised, surprised. It was just hard, so it's totally a different context when it come. Two cities that affect global economy. Two cities that are central, but even in there because of the history of even Miami, how Miami was founded, it was founded in wealth.
Little bit different, not only York City too, but it's a little bit different the way that you look at, even the economy here in Florida versus New York City. But they're both two cities that have pockets of poverty, that have community needs, that struggle in so many areas. One of the similarities: immigration. I just saw buses of immigrants from Texas coming to New York City. And here, not too long ago, they stopped two. I think, boats that were hundreds of people from Cuba, I believe that were coming here into the country. So you have those similarities. When you come to building community and church plant, especially if you are community church, the way to go about it's going to be totally different.
Brandon O’Brien: So you are navigating some cultural differences and move from New York City to Miami, you've church planted both places and have talked a little bit about the way those cultural contexts are different. You're also navigating another cultural difference, which is you are a woman in church planting in a field, which is historically very male-dominated.
Can you tell me how you got started in ministry? And how that your beginnings in ministry as a woman in church planting? How did that go? What did that look like?
Nilza Oyola: Well, actually I started, if I can say that, a little charismatic in the womb of my mother. We have a line of evangelists and pastors, and my grandmother was a missionary. So faith has been a strong part. Good, and then the not-so-good as well, that impacted my life. But as I actually came to New York, when I was 12 years old, didn't know the language, I had those challenges. I was also raised in foster care, so that impacted even the way I looked at ministry. And even I looked at my relationship with God.
So oftentimes, I tried to sort of excel just to prove myself, one, of being who I was, and then two. Also being a woman. And some say that I did pretty good. I ended up being an executive and a senior vice president in the South Bronx running an economic development corporation, there, all that. But I say that to say that always it was present being a woman, being a challenge, not only in those times, I'm talking about 20 something years ago, being young and being in that type of leadership position.
And then struggling with the tension of my faith, with institutionalized religion, some of the same things that we struggling today, and my call for ministry. And I fought it. I mean, believe me, I fought it. I didn't want to be a minister at all, but I was already doing ministry in the community in the South Bronx. That's what I did, economic development, but I didn't see it. I didn't link it.
And it wasn't until one day, this is a true story. How it happens. It was the coldest day in New York City. And this pastor that his wife happened to work with me under my leadership. She had been invited me to go to the church in Harlem, and they are from a black church in Harlem, Methodist church. So they invited me, blonde hair, Hispanic, with an accent, imagine. So I was afraid, "I don't want to go there." But this day, the coldest day in New York City, I got up, and I just went to the church.
So when I go into the church, beautiful church, I think, it's 100-years-old, right there in Harlem. The pastor was going to pray to actually dismiss everyone because the boiler got messed up and whatever, and they didn't have heat. But in their tradition, in the Methodist tradition, they got what they call the elderly women “the mothers of the church.” So I saw this woman dressed in white, and I was like, "What is this?" It wasn't my tradition.
And as I walked in, and the pastor said, "Well, I think I should dismiss everybody, it's too cold." The mothers of the church said, "No, pastor, God give you Word. Give us the Word. Give us the Word." And then this blonde girl comes in, and they all look back with their big hats and dress in white. And the pastor goes, "Come in, daughter. Come in, daughter." And there his message touched me. And he was preaching about the prodigal son. And he said, "Come back home. Come back home." And in the Methodist tradition, all you have to do you go into the throng, and you become a member right there, that Sunday. You got to do no one-on-one church. And that was the door, really.
And it was interesting because I didn't end up in a Latino church. I ended up in an Afro-American black church in Harlem, in the Methodist tradition, when I come from a Pentecostal one. So imagine, two totally, two different worlds. And they took me under the wing, and I actually, that's where I answered the call, actually became ordained in the Methodist Episcopal church.
Brandon O’Brien: I like to think that things have improved and that certain opportunities are more available now for women in ministry in the evangelical and church-planting spaces that we occupy. But I assume that there are still challenges for operating the roles that you operate in. What do you feel like are the key challenges for you in the world you're inhabiting?
Nilza Oyola: I know the big elephant in the room is the theological resistance, but that's another podcast. Not going to argue that one, but that is real. It's very real. We often feel the value that we have to work twice as hard. I mean, same thing in the secular. I mean, we bring it back. The difference is that in the secular, now, even 500 Fortune companies have realized the value and the gifts and the talents of women and give them a space, that many years ago, they wouldn't. It's not a large space, but still they have recognized that the church is still not necessarily there.
So as a result, and depending again of your tradition, we don't have the same positions. We might do the same functions, but our titles are different. They may not be so open to put a woman preaching in leadership. And even in our culture, even in our Latino culture, while the machismo mindset is still there. So to overcome those truly is by the grace of God that we can do it. And they expect a lot from women as well. The good thing is that we do deliver. You wasn't expecting that one.
Brandon O’Brien: No, you got me. I appreciate it. What do you think is a unique contribution that women make in the church-planting conversation?
Nilza Oyola: Well, I would say, but first of all, I remember one time, I was telling my kids and hence also my husband, when, "If you were to pay woman for every role that we have, you guys would be broke." I mean, we are cooks. We are mothers. We are budgeters. We are drivers. I mean, you name it. And I say that not to boast or anything like that, or that we're trying to compete with men, but our God has gifted us with resiliency, even communication skills. We tend to be more team players.
I mean, these are the things that even Fortune 500 companies have researched and have made the decisions based on those because they realize that women are the ones that, "Okay, let's go about business." At least a great percentage of them. They are more sharp in that arena in making it happen, detail-oriented. They more aggressive in terms of perhaps taking risks, knowing that if this is what I need to do to get to where I need to get, I'm going to go ahead and do it. They're not afraid to ask.
They tend to cultivate interpersonal relationships in a more lasting way, if you will. We really develop those relationships. We tend to be, again, highly resistant, even in the face of hardship. I mean, if you think about our makeup, even when it comes to rejection, even when it comes to failure, again, we try very hard of doing things. And so I think that that, are soft skills, and we have the hard skill, womens are also getting educated. even in the church-planting world, you have women that are theologians that are really bringing forth theology and being in the spaces that predominantly have been men.
And I think for the church, not to begin to recognize those skills would be a detriment to the church. And to those, instead of because it can be a benefit. I always say this analogy. I'm not a feminist, so I'm not trying to be a man or anything like that. But I do think that God has given us gifts and talents. The book of Acts have prominent women, Lydia, Dorca, they were there for a reason, and they even funded the ministry for...
And so we can argue the other side. But the truth is that they do have gifts and talents. And those gifts and talents are not a specific for one person, but for the entire body of Christ, and for the benefit and the edification of the body of Christ. And when you sort of silence that part, then the whole body is not benefit.
So if I use that analogy, all the body parts are needed. They all to make the same functions, but without one, you really not whole. And I think that's the part, where maybe the church can be a little bit more open.
Brandon O’Brien: I want to shift in our conversation here to one of your focuses in your work, which is your work with Iglesia Floreciente, which is designed to equip Hispanic churches to partner with their communities in pursuing the common good or shalom as a witness to the gospel message in the transforming presence of the Kingdom of God, which is a beautiful vision. And there's a lot of terms in that description that we could unpack. let's start with the idea of shalom. What is that? What does shalom look like in an urban neighborhood in Miami where you're in service now?
Nilza Oyola: Well, we know that shalom... What is shalom? It's the peace of God. The peace of God that restores all things, all fallen things. We live in the fallen world, in the captive world, the shalom God is the one, is that common good. So for us, when try to visualize what shalom will be is creating the sense of belonging, a sense of community, relationship, a shared purpose or a common good. And people coming together in divine connections, if you will, to address the needs of our community. Whether it is housing, employment, whether it's education, healthcare. So when you have not one person, but when you have the church building bridges with the community together, that for me, really is shalom.
Brandon O’Brien: And you've mentioned the priority there of the needs of the community, the partnership of the church with the community. And it's in this definition, but in some other material, you talk about the community-based model of ministry. Can you tell us what that is? And how it differs from more traditional church-planting?
Nilza Oyola: And let me start with a disclaimer. This is not the opinion of Redeemer City to City. This is in my own experience as a church-planter and being also in a traditional setting as well. And I think that both serve its purposes. There's many other models, I mean, you have the house, church model and what are the hybrid model or mixed model. So many other models as well. But these two, specifically in my own experience with the traditional model, has been more of come and see versus go and see. So if I work it in short, come and see means that traditional model, we’ll call it “attractional church model.” Come and see what God is doing in our church. That's a more traditional and in some ways more attractional model, versus the more community-based ministry model is more being sent. Let me go and see what's happening in the community and based on that, then we are going to get together, to attend, to reflect, truly reflect what the community that God has put us in there. Is that is or intention. So then the gospel of Jesus can transform lives, community, but also impact that city where you at. So if that's the mission of your church, then it needs to have different type of elements.
And it's based, if you will, in Isaiah 61, a peace again, that shalom of God, a holistic approach, that when you bless, in order to receive a blessing, you got to bless your city as well. When they were in exile, you call them to be there to bless the city, but you in exile, right?
So it is that framework. And there are some elements that I think that are important, that are different between a more attractional, traditional model with the pastor, you got some activities going on in the church, all good, but it's mostly let me invite people to come and join and worship with us here. So inwardly rather than outwardly.
So for instance, in a community-based model, you attend to the needs of the people, so that's one thing. You go and you see what's going on in my community. What are some of the needs? And how we, as the church, can help? You also do what we call the asset-based-community development mapping. You want to know what is already things are in the community that can be resources to the church? There are different pillars in a community. There's schools. There's government, again, there are organization, businesses, and the church is one of them. In my opinion, it should be the strongest. But it's not the only one. And as a result, we need to collaborate with this other entity. So making sure that we do collaboration, understanding what God is already doing, what other type of organization, how can I come alongside of that?
Even including other faith faces and even other churches. It's important to understand that one church cannot do it at all. All together, that we need more people. Also, the fact of leadership development is another aspect within this model, bringing or raising indigenous leaders from the community, from the church. Oftentimes we bring people from outside, and sometimes you have to do that. But in this model, you want to be homegrown if you decide you want to do that. It also in a community-ministry model, you have that serving leadership attitude, if you will, to give, to serve. It's part of your DNA.
Even when it comes to funding, it can be more creative because oftentimes as it's in church-planting, you're working from the budget. It becomes hard at times. A lot of pastors are bi-vocational. But in this type of model, you can be creative. You've got grant-writing. You can sort of not-for-profits that can bring external revenue to the church.
And depending where you are, maybe the people, you can't just rely on, maybe on your titles and your offerings. Because that might not even be something, a tradition that the people that you are trying to serve even have, right?
So it can become difficult. But in this type of model, it's more community. Is looking at the resources that you have in the community. How do we come alongside of that? Also, looking at the church with the same lens. What are the gift and talents that we have within that church that can help those identifying needs in the community?
Brandon O’Brien: You mentioned in some of the explanation about the way the training works for Iglesia Floreciente is that you're helping Hispanic church leaders draw on the theological and ministerial resources of the Hispanic church. And so I'm curious, for people who may not be familiar, how would you describe some of those resources, some of the theological ministerial heritage that help you in the work that you're doing?
Nilza Oyola: Well, one of the things that we try to encourage is to draw from our culture. From our own, and I'm going to say, theology. And this way might not be a seminary, might not be even Western. Most of it, it is, but it is based on our living experiences and culture and how that has thrown us to God.
I know Chao Romero, in his book The Brown Church, he calls some of those shared experiences and where we have learned theology, the grandmother theology. Often it is the grandmother who have taught you to come to, or forced you to come to church, or have taught you those values of compassion by sharing all those things. And especially in the Latino context. So even the sense of community, family, all those things that Latinos are known for, we have those strong ties. So drawing first from that, from our cultures.
But even in that, how that informed our theology, the way that we describe our relationship with God, our nature of God, that study, how that has informed us. And even, how do we even honor those? We may have come now, to a pastor. I was talking to a pastor yesterday, and she was describing it this way. I asked her, "So how long has your church-plant been there?" She happens to be a female pastor. And she said, "Well, I spent 20 years in the Old Testament, and one year now in the New Testament."
But she said, "But I have to honor the Old Testament because in there," and this is, I put a picture in your mind, what I'm trying to say. She said, "In there, I learned to live in community, to respect even the Bible. I think, to know the Bible." We spent so many days at church in community. I mean, it became sort of our family. And even if out of that became also some growing pains. If it wasn't for that, I perhaps wouldn't be where I'm here today, understanding that I need to go a little bit more in the New Testament. Right?
But those, you have to honor that. So we don't want to disregard. That is, how do we learn from our culture? How do we learn from our theology, our history, and how we can draw it from and apply it in what we doing today? Because I think it's important. Our history as a Latino community is rich.
Brandon O’Brien: Do you find pastors, who are involved in this training? Do you find that they're already aware of a lot of this, the richness of their own heritage and tradition, and they're glad to embrace it? Or do you find that they're surprised to find what kinds of resources exist already in the Hispanic church traditions?
Nilza Oyola: Most of the time, they were surprised because the truth is that if you go to seminaries, go to the seminaries that we know. When I went to seminary, I didn't learn about anybody. I didn't know who Justo Gonzalez was. I didn't know who are people that even in my own heritage like, Agustina Nunez, she's a well-known theologian in Puerto Rico. I didn't know because most of the information that I received, good, but from a different context, it didn't speak to my culture. It wasn't my voice. It was a more angry voice, Western voice.
So for most people, it is not that there are too many or maybe not accessible. We still need to access more, but because it hasn't been the norm, it brings that “aha” moment. And I think this is why Iglesia Floreciente has been sort of an awakening in the church that we are working with in the community. Churches is because they can see themselves, "Ah, we got something to contribute. We have a voice." And most people want to have voice, want to talk from their experiences in their heritage and embrace that. And even the ones that might be Latinos and might be second, third generations, it's a learning experience. And then that they could come and appreciate their history and not knock it down, so to speak.
Brandon O’Brien: What are you seeing as fruit coming out of this training? When someone has an aha, and they see the value of their own heritage, and they hear their own voice, and they bring that into ministry, what are you seeing as the result of those things?
Nilza Oyola: One, I think, and this is why I love The Brown Church because Chao Romero says we brown—not necessarily because we might be dark, light, we got different complexions of skin, but brown because we often are the middle child—you may not fit in this category, or fit in that category, so we kind of in the middle. So when they find the place within themselves, then it gives them sometimes that courage to speak.
And then, now they see things in a different way. They are sense of wholeness in God as well. And understanding, while I'm a child of God, I have something to...that I don't need to hide. I could borrow from others, but I could also stand on my own two feet. And then how can I embrace that now in the ministry? How can I even from the pulpit even talk about my heritage and my traditions? How can my congregants can learn from that and feel also proud, but not proud in a sense in a condescending way and all the power way? But still proud that the God made me, I'm made in the image of God, and I have my own wishes.
Brandon O’Brien: If you think in terms of a city ecosystem in a city like Miami, where there are lots of different kinds of communities, lots of different kinds of churches and neighborhoods, what is the gift that these Hispanic churches that are part of the Iglesia Floreciente training and that are influenced by these things? What is the gift that those churches offer the whole church-planting movement in a city?
Nilza Oyola: So when churches that are Latinos that have been there that are connecting with the community, half the language are empower. Then I think it brings not only that, but it brings unity, also to the church, especially small churches, rather one doing the more indigenous churches working on the ground that may not have all the resources, they come together. They know they not alone. I mean, we have right now about in our incubator or church-planting training, about 23 leaders and representing about 12 different churches, and nine of them are Latino-led.
But the other ones are not. We got African-American descent. We got some from the Caribbean, and we actually did it intentionally. We did a bilingual incubator. So we brought them all together. And in the beginning, the Hispanic leaders tend to be very quiet. Because most of the time, in these spaces, they have not been given the opportunity to speak or contribute. But now, in learning all the things that they're learning in Iglesia Floreciente about their heritage, about community engagement, and the tools that we have been providing them, they feel now, "Yes, now I can."
And the posture, it's different, totally changed. And it's not a posture to say, "Hey, I'm here now in the room, but to contribute." And now when they speak, they speak from that passion, and the ones that are listening, I actually appreciative of them, and they are being blessed. And that is something that I have not seen before, even in New York City, if you will.
Brandon O’Brien: When you imagine Miami in 10 years or 20 years or something, if churches are really committed to the unity in the gospel, seeking the shalom of their neighborhoods, et cetera, what do you see for Miami, like a vision for the future of the city? If the kinds of things you're doing now were to really take root in the churches in the city?
Nilza Oyola: We're going to see more lives transform and communities transform and not just in words or in theory, but actually in action. I mean, we're going to see more community programs. We're going to see more collaborations. I mean, I just got out of a meeting with the Miami Council, faith-based Council, the Council government office, and it's a nonpartisan. And I was invited. But here's the beauty of things, that that is going to continue. And now they asking us to stay. You know what? We want those leaders to be part of things. So I think it's going to be more connections.
Communities can invest within the community, rather than leaving their communities to go and get resources because the community is not providing it for them. There's going to be more opportunities to empower that community, to empower the resident because we have done the job of equipping our leaders to engage the community, right?
To go to do those asset mapping, to work with what God is working in there. So in 10 years from now, you going to see a different gospel in there. The true one. So maybe more church, more duplication, in different forms, might not be your megachurches. But instead of having one big church, maybe you have 10 of those, and maybe 10 of those churches are going to come together. Maybe they are more network of churches working together for the common good. That is at least my point and my hope.
And we hope that with our trainees and where I involvement here in the city, we can bring that sense of belonging. We can bring that bridge builder between the church and the community. That, again, as more has declined in the sense that people don't want it now about institutionalized church. Maybe we can show them really what the church is about. And it's not necessarily about building the stained-glass with a cross, although they are beautiful, that it is more than that. That the church has a part in the community, in an important part in the community and in building it and continue to spread the gospel.
Brandon O’Brien: Thank you so much. And thank you, Nilza, for being with us today. It's been a real pleasure.
Nilza Oyola: Oh, thank you for having me.
Brandon O’Brien: You can learn more about Nilza’s work at City to City Miami, including Iglesia Floreciente, at citytocitymiami.com.
Next week we talk with Kris Hernandez and Robert Elkin who are both church planters and pastors themselves. But they also coach and train church planters, as well. They talk about the unique challenges of city ministry and how the agencies and denominations who serve urban pastors can do so more effectively.
How to Reach the West Again is a production of Redeemer City to City. This episode was produced, written and hosted by Brandon O’Brien.
Our associate producer is Braeden Gregg.
Today’s episode was recorded at Roosevelt Community Church in Phoenix, Arizona, and edited by Lee Jerkins.
RCTC is a non-profit organization co-founded by Tim Keller and supported by generous people like you. If you’ve enjoyed this episode and would like to hear more, subscribe to the podcast on your favorite platform, leave a review, and consider making a gift to support the work at www.redeemercitytocity.com/give.