Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
A podcast at the intersection of psychology and culture that intimately explores the human experience and critiques the counseling profession. Your host, Stephanie Winn, distills wisdom gained from her practice as a family therapist and coach while pivoting towards questions of how to apply a practical understanding of psychology to the novel dilemmas of the 21st century, from political polarization to medical malpractice.
What does ethical mental health care look like in a normless age, as our moral compasses spin in search of true north? How can therapists treat patients under pressure to affirm everything from the notion of "gender identity" to assisted suicide?
Primarily a long-form interview podcast, Stephanie invites unorthodox, free-thinking guests from many walks of life, including counselors, social workers, medical professionals, writers, researchers, and people with unique lived experience, such as detransitioners.
Curious about many things, Stephanie’s interdisciplinary psychological lens investigates challenging social issues and inspires transformation in the self, relationships, and society. She is known for bringing calm warmth to painful subjects, and astute perceptiveness to ethically complex issues. Pick up a torch to illuminate the dark night and join us on this journey through the inner wilderness.
You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist ranks in the top 1% globally according to ListenNotes. New episodes are released every Monday. Three and a half years after the show's inception in May of 2022, Stephanie became a Christian, representing the crystallization of moral, spiritual, and existential views she had been openly grappling with along with her audience and guests. Newer episodes (#188 forward) may sometimes reflect a Christian understanding, interwoven with and applied to the same issues the podcast has always addressed. The podcast remains diverse and continues to feature guests from all viewpoints.
[00:00:00] Elspeth: We don't have a date for that yet, but our brief was just recently filed and we're arguing essentially that this is a deprivation of women's rights. And to pretend that men can be women and put them in an enclosed environment that the women cannot leave. I mean, [00:00:15] even all the other cases with adults where they've found out men over and over again in the locker room, at least she can walk away.
But the women in prison cannot leave.
[00:00:26] Announcer: You must be some kind of therapist?[00:00:30]
[00:00:31] Stephanie: Today I have the pleasure of welcoming back to the podcast Elspeth Cypher. She retired from the Supreme Judicial Court in Massachusetts in 2024. She's president of the board of directors of the Women's [00:00:45] Liberation Front, WoLF, a nonpartisan radical feminist organization dedicated to the rights of women and girls.
She's also a founding member of the Gender Critical Law Society. Elspeth previously appeared on this podcast on episode number 183, [00:01:00] Men Out of Women's Prisons: Retired Judge Elspeth Cypher Fights to Protect Female Interests. Elspeth, so good to see you again. Welcome back.
[00:01:07] Elspeth: Thank you. It's really great to be here.
I've, I enjoyed your podcast, being on it last time, and s- talking with [00:01:15] you, and I've been listening since, and, uh, so I'm delighted to be back.
[00:01:19] Stephanie: So, it's so nice to have someone who's retired being able to just say whatever they think about the profession they've left behind. I, I wonder [00:01:30] why we don't see more of that, honestly.
So you're retired from the legal system, and...
[00:01:34] Elspeth: There, there are a few judges who retire and go on to do other things, uh, talking about cases, but they're not in this area. And a lot of judges don't [00:01:45] want to, and, you know, retired judges just wanna retire and not think about law. Um, and it... I have to be honest, you know, I was a judge for over 20 years, and it took me a while [00:02:00] to realize I could say things.
I felt like one of those, you know, unfortunate pets who's been crated constantly, you know, in a, in this little crate, and then when you open the door, they would, they don't come out. [00:02:15] Or if they're out, they still think they're in a crate. So it, it did take a while for me to be comfortable, um, saying, saying more things and controversial things and having an opinion that I could, I could [00:02:30] articulate and say, and So it's been very different.
It, t- it's taken a while for me to get used to, but I'm there. I think I'm there. I think so.
[00:02:38] Stephanie: That's such a human experience, feeling conditioned to our limitations, our comfort zones, what we've learned we [00:02:45] can and cannot say. And, you know, e- even at this stage in life, I still have moments. Like, money's one of those things, where when you're young and poor, you don't spend on anything.
And then as you get a little bit more comfortable, you're like, "Oh, I can buy myself a new backpack. I don't have to [00:03:00] use the beaten-up one from 15 years ago." You know, like, these little things occur to you, "Oh, I could just do that." And then it, it expands and, and I think that's seems to me like the sign of a life well-lived, if you're continuously becoming aware of ways in which you're freer than you thought.[00:03:15]
[00:03:15] Elspeth: True enough. True enough. And that freedom is really, really important. And, um, it-- I don't remember if I published this photo or not, but it was an image I was working on for a Substack, um, as I have one called Before Justice [00:03:30] Was Blind. And I was trying to show that women are so often in a mental cage. Um, they're in prison in their mind, but not...
They're actually free to move around. Um, I, I forget. [00:03:45] I don't remember if I published that or not, but I- Hmm ... if I didn't, I will at some point. But-
[00:03:49] Stephanie: What were some examples?
[00:03:51] Elspeth: Um, well, it's, it's like, I think an example would be women being [00:04:00] silenced over the years. And when I say over the years, I mean over the years.
Thousands of years. There were practices in the past where if women spoke Or were [00:04:15] perceived as nagging their husbands or somebody else, um, or engaged in some kind of speech they didn't, that wasn't liked. They would be, um, encased in what's called a scold's bridle, which is a metal [00:04:30] contraption that would go around their head, quite heavy, and would keep their mouth shut or have, um, something in it that would go in their mouth to keep them from being able to talk.
And as if they [00:04:45] tried, they would hurt themselves. Um, women's speech is, uh-- I think all of us are conditioned as women to be very, uh, not, not to have too much [00:05:00] of an opinion, not to be too strong in an opinion, um, to be placating in some ways with our speech. And another example, well, a more modern example, I think, would be all the [00:05:15] silencing that women have had under this gender issue in the last, I don't know how many years now we can count.
But so many women who were canceled or had their licenses threatened, whether they [00:05:30] were lawyers or therapists or doctors, um, anybody who did not go along with gender identity, ideology and practice and theory, w- lost their jobs or lost a [00:05:45] speaking engagement or were canceled in some other way, lost book publishers, um, who-- people who were tremendously valuable until they said, "No, I don't think trans-- that men can become women, [00:06:00] and women have-- are separate beings with separate needs and rights."
Uh So there's-- I see so many women in that role where... And, and I think about it, how did this happen? How did we get here, right? How-- That women couldn't say [00:06:15] things like, "You're not a woman, you're a man." How did we get to that? Where other women become the enforcer and tell... And so there, women take on the, the mantra and, and do the actual [00:06:30] work for the, um, other side.
Other-- Not the other side, but the side that would restrict women's rights and t- and take them away. Um, other women become the enforcer of that. And so it, it always just amazes me how we [00:06:45] get there, but it's that silencing. Women see what happens to other women. This is very, in my mind, I, I know people will not think this, but in my mind, this is very similar to when other women labeled [00:07:00] women as witches.
Um, because they have to know the consequence of what they're doing now, that if you call somebody a, a bigot or anti-trans or, um, a transphobe or [00:07:15] whatever because... Or a TERF, trans-exclusionary radical feminist, because th- that will, that can cause such damage. They can lose their livelihood, they can lose all their social contacts, their whole life can be destroyed by being publicly called those things [00:07:30] simply for saying biology is real, it has not changed in millions of years, male and female, and you cannot jump categories.
So it's a [00:07:45] basic, I think Kathleen Stock's put it really well as a category error. There are cat- two categories, one's male, one's female. Maybe there are differences in sex development, but that's always within the framework of male and [00:08:00] female and not creating a third sex So-
[00:08:04] Stephanie: It is maddening- And it was a long- It's maddening to be alone.
It's, it's- Yes ... maddening to, to be the only person who sees s- things a certain way. [00:08:15] I'm trying to remember the name of the experiment. I'm sure someone's gonna remember it and put it in the comments, but, you know, there, there've been experiments done on group consensus- Mm ... right? Where they- Mm ... for example, have a test subject who thinks that they're surrounded by other test subjects, [00:08:30] but the other test subjects are actually in on the experiment.
[00:08:32] Announcer: Right.
[00:08:33] Stephanie: And everyone agrees, "Oh, this, those two lines are the same length," right? I've seen that. And they're actually two different lengths. Yes. Right? There's things like this, and, and you know, what, what we find is the majority of people most of the time will [00:08:45] end up peer pressured, um, into seeing things or tricking themselves into seeing things the same way as, as other people.
And it can be hard to come out of that, uh, haze. You know, I remember the process of [00:09:00] coming out of that haze in 2020 very gradually when I didn't know anyone who was looking at things a different way. I had to get my voices from online. And so my heart goes out to people like listeners of this podcast, right?
Who aren't, you know, they don't have some Substack [00:09:15] presence or, you know, social media following. They don't have a podcast. They don't have internet notoriety, right? They just have their life, their family, community, career. And, and if they're in an environment where this is, seems [00:09:30] to be the consensus, it can be very isolating, and a lot of people end up struggling with that decision of like, "Do I make some big announcement that I see th- things differently, and, like, what am I risking?
What am I walking into?" I mean, I still get these questions years- Sure ... into doing this. You know, I have, like, a [00:09:45] new, you know, ex-buddy who's messaging me like, "Hey, I think I wanna speak out about, like, some of the nonsense in the therapy world. Should I go for it?" I'm like, "Have you listened to my story yet?
Like, do you know what you're getting into?" Right. [00:10:00] Um- Right ... yeah, I mean, my heart goes out to all those people who are isolated. So much of my community now is online, um-
[00:10:06] Elspeth: I know ... which,
[00:10:06] Stephanie: like, has its pros and cons. I mean, I did recently go on a, a road trip with my family to California, and I got to meet some of my online [00:10:15] friends.
That's nice. I got to hang out with Zoad Tabrizi. Love her. Um, I went boating with my friend Jake Wiskerchen and his family and my family, and I can say that he's thrown me off of a raft now. And, [00:10:30] um, I met up with Lisa Duvall and Brett Alderman and Jenny Poyer Ackerman- Sure ... all in the Bay Area. Um, so it, it's like, it's a blessing to have friends all over the world who- Right
I could have [00:10:45] only met online, but at the same time, I, I don't have a lot of local friends. And- Right.
[00:10:48] Elspeth: Right ...
[00:10:48] Stephanie: and sometimes the decision to speak out is kind of the decision to, like, make your life online,
[00:10:54] Elspeth: which is like- That's true
[00:10:55] Stephanie: enough ... not a great, not a great trade-off, really.
[00:10:58] Elspeth: And, and I, I feel for the, [00:11:00] for the people who inadvertently stumble into this without realizing what they have just done when they- Yeah
say, "Well, of course men can't be women." And they, you know, because they've been going about their life [00:11:15] and raising their family and may- you know, this is not top of mind for everybody. Um, so I, I feel bad 'cause then they find themselves sometimes with a lot of blowback that they weren't expecting and are not, not prepared to [00:11:30] handle.
Um, so I, you know, that, that's something that, uh, you know, I, I hate seeing that when that happens to someone, because it's basic stuff we're talking about here. And for me, [00:11:45] the mystery of how this spread So thoroughly across all the English-speaking countries around the same time is one that I still don't fully understand yet, but would love to, [00:12:00] love to know the whole, all the details.
[00:12:04] Stephanie: And on that note, um, with regard to the courage and, uh, perhaps folly of speaking out, um, before we started recording, you were giving me a little update about [00:12:15] WOLFE. Um- Oh, yeah ... you told me about your new executive director, and she has- Yeah ... an interesting backstory.
[00:12:20] Elspeth: She
[00:12:21] Stephanie: does. I think you also wanted to explain the term radical feminist.
[00:12:23] Elspeth: Sure. You know, um, everybody, not everybody, but a lot of peop- well, first, [00:12:30] feminist is a problem because people, "Oh, I'm not a feminist." And then, you know, when you talk to them and you find out what they really believe about things, well, you fit a feminist definition. Um, it's only [00:12:45] ever meant equal rights for women.
Um, and it has been given a very bad reputation in many areas. Radical feminism sounds worse, because it's radical, but radical in the [00:13:00] sense that we, we at the Women's Liberation Front use it, and as, as radical feminists have used it all along, is to mean, radical means going to the root of something. So when we say we are a radical feminist, we're saying we are going to the root of [00:13:15] the problem, which is that basically, our femaleness, our biology is considered second and is subjected to [00:13:30] immense abuses and expectations, um, from a structure that is patriarchal in nature.
And that means patriar- patriarchy is another word that upsets people, but [00:13:45] Men get really hurt by that system too. And I think an egalitarian system is more what we all, what we would like, not having women dominate everything, but [00:14:00] having an equality. And so with our radical feminism, we focus on, um, we're nonpartisan.
We do not sit with the right. We do not sit with the left. And we, um, are very much focused only [00:14:15] on how does this affect women and girls? And so for example, gender identity affects women and girls greatly, as we know, through loss of single-sex opportunities, privacy, um, crowding them in [00:14:30] with men in prison.
Um, it just goes on and on. Uh, how violating the boundary of what a woman is is probably the ultimate patriarchal act. And so, but I was thinking, [00:14:45] you know, because feminism has such a bad rap, but I was flying Recently, and I was watching a row ahead of me on the, um, a man who's a big guy, he was young, and he had his wife, and they had [00:15:00] their two, two-year-old daughter with them.
And this girl, little girl, was just so happy sitting with her daddy, and he just held her and ta- took care of her the entire plane ride. And I thought, [00:15:15] "He could not have done that without feminism." I know so many men whose, who have had better and rewarding, enriching lives because feminism paved the way for them to be human, rather than [00:15:30] cold, stoic, grunting people, which are the kind of men that I grew up with, you know.
Man comes in after work and doesn't say much, and you gotta be quiet around him, and he doesn't do, deal with the children and, and whatnot. But I think men [00:15:45] have gained tremendously from this, but it's not recognized. Um, and also understanding the extent that we can, you know, what boys go through who are sexually abused.
If that, if feminism had not started [00:16:00] opening up minds and ideas and doors, I think a lot of those boys, uh, who are men now would not have been able to come forward and say, "You know, it happens to boys too. Boys are sexually abused, and look at, look, look at what happened here." [00:16:15] So as I said, we are nonpartisan.
Gender identity's a big issue for us. Reproductive sovereignty and control over our own bodies is a big re- uh, issue for the Women's Liberation Front. Any violence against women, we're very... You [00:16:30] know, rape, all that power stuff. And also commercial exploitation of women's bodies. Um, pornography, which is often filming a crime, because so often those women are not [00:16:45] volun- really voluntary.
And the vi- the porn right now has gotten so violent that it's very dangerous and it's detrimental to the boys who watch it, and they w- they catch it early. It can take them down some very dangerous and addictive roads. Um, [00:17:00] so pornography, prostitution, other forms of... Anytime a woman's body is used as a resource and, un- you know, um A- as if we're being farmed or as if we are the, you know, which extends [00:17:15] to some environmental questions also.
How do, how do we treat the Earth, which is our mother after all? What are we going to extract from her? Um-
[00:17:23] Stephanie: I thought you were gonna talk about surrogacy.
[00:17:25] Elspeth: Oh, almost. Almost got there. I'm concerned about that. [00:17:30] Um, there's a book out, uh, I forget the name of it and I forget who wrote it, but it's a woman from...
It's been translated to English, but it's about a woman who's, who was, um, a, a product of surrogacy, and she talks [00:17:45] about th- how there's always been a gap in her life or her feeling because she feels she's missing something. And I know adoptees have talked about the same thing, that they had a lovely, [00:18:00] wonderful adoptive family, but they still feel there's something missing.
And when you think about a baby in the womb and you think that at nine months it's, as it's developing, it's in the rhythm of the mother's body. [00:18:15] Even if that mother is not genetically related to that baby, by the time that baby's born, they're, they're related because the baby leaves behind DNA in her immune system, in her circulatory system, and, uh, they were one in a sense.
They were one. [00:18:30] Um, and so those babies who are taken immediately away from their mo- their bi- the mother who births them, um, suffer from, uh, some th- they're, they're put into the, the, [00:18:45] not with what's familiar to them, even on a non-verbal level. And so there's, there's often some suffering. And surrogacy is often As it, as it is right now, we see so many, uh, you can only call them surrogacy farms in other [00:19:00] countries.
I hope they're all in other countries and not in our own. But where women from-- poor women, um, are your, are, are kept, uh, as surrogates. And there have been reports, um, from India and other countries of [00:19:15] these very poor women being chosen as surrogates. They get paid, but they ca- they're basically controlled because they're, they're-- everybody's keeping an eye on them, and they're living with other surrogates, and the- a lot of their freedom's taken away, and [00:19:30] it's a me- it's like a production system.
Um, so the, the horrors of that can be quite severe. Um, but
[00:19:38] Stephanie: on the- I didn't know there were surrogacy farms in India. Oh, yes. You
[00:19:41] Announcer: didn't know?
[00:19:42] Elspeth: Or you
[00:19:42] Announcer: didn't-
[00:19:43] Stephanie: No. I mean, I- Oh ... I'm [00:19:45] against surrogacy in general. Yes. Yeah. Um, I, you know, I hold the radical belief that a child has a mother and a father and deserves to know them.
And, you know, I, it-- I think we can learn a lot from adoptees, but we can also distinguish that [00:20:00] adoption- That's true ... makes the best of a terrible situation, right? And there's a difference between giving a child parents who's lost their parents versus inflicting that intentionally on a child to begin with, planning a life- That's a good point
in which a child is removed from their [00:20:15] parents.
[00:20:15] Elspeth: That's a really, really good point. Um, and also there's, there's some, some terrible cases that you-- that don't make the mainstream media, but so much of that is true. Legacy media doesn't, does not cover a lot of this from the [00:20:30] perspective of, um, a woman or a baby.
But there are cases in which there may be something wrong with the baby. Maybe the baby has Down syndrome, or maybe there's one right now that has, I've saw it in the news, hypoplastic left heart [00:20:45] syndrome, which is a heart defect and does require future surgeries. But I know a family who had a, a baby with that, and they've got a great 16-year-old right now.
So the surrogate contractors want [00:21:00] the mother to abort, and she doesn't want to. And so what a terrible thing, situation to be in, um, for everyone. Um, but, but the surrogate, the, but the seekers or the pro-- uh, what do they, there's a word. [00:21:15] The intended parents. That's what they're called. Intended parents. Um, some of them are looking for particular traits, so they want, you know, to make sure that the egg and the sperm are from certain types of [00:21:30] people or edu- or certain education level or IQ level and There's often a choice they can make if it turns out that, um, you know, it's, it's, uh, not the right sex.
They can [00:21:45] pick a different egg or embryo or whatever. Um, so it's just, it is just so fraught with trouble and problems, and so disregarding the, the universal mother-child bond and [00:22:00] instinct. It's, uh, maternal values are very different than patriarchal values, and it's a total disregard and disrespect of those.
Um, and of course, I feel compassion [00:22:15] for women who can't have children who want them.
[00:22:17] Stephanie: And I know families of every shape and size, and I think that we can talk about the ethics of a cultural practice without condemning certain individuals for [00:22:30] the choices that they made in that situation. We can still love these people.
They are our friends, our family, our clients, our coworkers. Um, but for example, even when I would say, I would say the least The least [00:22:45] bizarre, if that makes sense, structure of, um, reproductive technology is where the biological mother and the gestational mother are the same person [00:23:00] and is also the intended mother, but where you have a sperm donor for a father.
Let's say that, you know, you have a married couple with, um, you know, infertility on, on the part of the husband, right? Like, even in that situation, [00:23:15] the child is growing up, as, well, children have grown up in all eras in this situation for a number of reasons, like infidelity, right? But the child is growing up being raised by someone they're not genetically related to, and I think [00:23:30] we owe it to ourselves as a society, in the mental health field, we owe it to our colleagues and our patients to talk about how that might affect someone's relationships in the family, their identity [00:23:45] formation, their understanding of themselves.
There's a difference between being raised by someone you're genetically related to and being raised by someone you're not genetically related to. And I can say that as a stepmom. I'm raising kids that I'm not genetically related to, and I'm not gonna pretend that [00:24:00] that's the same thing. It's not.
[00:24:01] Elspeth: I did not know my biological father.
He was a man of the '60s, shall we say. And, um, had many adventures, which resulted in me ultimately finding many half-siblings. [00:24:15] But, um, I didn't know him, so it was this mystery around it a little bit. And then my mother remarried and took me to moved to New York, where my stepfather would be working. And I'm going to [00:24:30] school, and all of a sudden, you know, I'm, I'm getting ready for first se- first grade, kindergarten actually.
But it was really first grade when I had to write my name, and she said, "Well, it's not McCoy, it's Cypher. Your father in, you know, your [00:24:45] stepfather basically is your father, and he common law adopted you." And I'm thinking I didn't know that was not a thing until I was a grownup. So I, I mean, there I am writing a, a foreign name in first grade that took me a [00:25:00] lot to work on and learn, and um, thinking I'm common law adopted.
Um, th- and there just is no such thing. Uh, so that meant when I grew up and needed a [00:25:15] passport and, um, needed to get my birth certificate to line up with my passport, I had to petition to change my birth certificate to reflect the name I had been using for the last [00:25:30] 25 years.
[00:25:31] Stephanie: So y- your name was never legally changed, you were just informed this is your new name?
[00:25:35] Elspeth: Uh, yes, and you don't have to s- in most states y- it, you don't have to do the, a formal name change process. But, um, certainly [00:25:45] it was not, um, it was not done right. But by the, I had lived under Cypher since I was five, so I, they needed, they wanted to see something that was r- official [00:26:00] and old and showed that I had been, you know, doing, using the name for a certain period of time, long period of time.
So I, I c- could come up with law school transcripts. I came up with, um, some grade school [00:26:15] reports, and they changed it to Cypher. Uh, a- and then they sent me the birth certificate that said Cypher, and I was upset, and I called and I said, "But where does the McCoy go now?" "Well, you wanted to change this," they said.
Well, I needed to [00:26:30] change it to get a passport. And but it still felt like I, that something was wrong with that. Mm. You know? I, I was born McCoy
[00:26:38] Stephanie: Well, I mean, the falsification of historical documents is what really confuses me there. I, I, I wanna go on a [00:26:45] tangent. Part of me wants to
go on a tangent- No, I'm fine with it ... about, about what did you need in acknowledging the shifts in identity through having a stepfather? There's a question there. But there's also, like, the, the, the fact that a birth certificate, a historical document [00:27:00] from before a cipher man came into your life. Um, I mean, it's the same thing now...
Not the same thing, but the fact that they're falsifying birth certificates with gender identity markers. Yes. Right? Like, they're s- they're pretending that we have some [00:27:15] time machine to go back to before the concept of gender identity was even introduced to this person, to the moment they were born, and falsify that?
Like, it's not a- Yeah ... I mean, I have a problem with falsifying sex in any legal document- I agree ... but especially the historical [00:27:30] ones.
[00:27:30] Elspeth: I agree- It's bizarre ... about that, and these are important records for many reasons. Um, a lot of statistics and data about health can be drawn from birth certificates in an area.
I mean, it's- tells you [00:27:45] how many men and women are born, which is important to reproduction, that we have a balance of some sort. So you can see, you know, well, back in 1980, whatever, you know, they had a spike in boys or [00:28:00] a spike in girls. What does that mean? Um, so I, I think the his- uh, yeah, historical records, they're very important, and I think they should not, not be touched.
And I regretted that I had to do that in order to [00:28:15] Go to my son's wedding in Morocco. Hmm. So but it was, it was, you know, it's better to have all my documents line up, I suppose. But, um-
[00:28:27] Stephanie: So tell us about Wolfe's new executive director.
[00:28:29] Elspeth: Oh, [00:28:30] yeah. I'm sorry. I keep getting distracted. So we, um, our sh- our previous executive director, Sharon Byrne, had a once in a lifetime opportunity to move to Spain, and so [00:28:45] she did.
And that left us looking for a new executive director, and I think a really wonderful woman came into our life at just the right time. Her name is Jasmine Falk, [00:29:00] F-A-U-L-K, and she is in the, she's from the state of Washington, and she's worked in education there. And, um, she is very interesting. She was born to an [00:29:15] Italian mother and a Saudi Arabian father.
Her parents met in Italy when he was traveling for school, and, uh, apparently this was something that was, that happened, that [00:29:30] Saudi men would, would leave Saudi Arabia and go to s- schools and colleges and universities and get higher degrees and meet women who are American and fall in love and have a fairly modern romance.
And then they'd get [00:29:45] married in Saudi Arabia and, and they'd be in Saudi Arabia. So her mother was living in Saudi Arabia, and she was raised as a s- as a Saudi girl. And she's got a, a terrific book out, um, called The Last Sandstorm, [00:30:00] and it's about her, and it talks about how she got out of Saudi Arabia.
Because you cannot leave Saudi Arabia as a woman unless a man has said it's okay. So she needed either some, a man traveling with her who was like her male guardian or she [00:30:15] needed her father's signature, and she did get her father's signature on the premise that she was just going to visit cousins in Canada.
Um, and then she ma- she immigrated and never went back, and I think she may be the first [00:30:30] documented case of an escapee. Um, but she's so, so strong, yet so, um, emotionally intelligent and, uh, talented that I'm really, really [00:30:45] excited, um, about her taking the helm at Wolfe. As I said before, we have, we have a hard time applying for grants.
We need money basically because, uh, uh, we're not left, we're not right. We, so we do not fit a [00:31:00] lot of criteria automatically, and we don't fit the criteria on the left because we take a strong stand on gender identity. Um, and we don't meet it on the right because we take a lo- a strong stand on, um, [00:31:15] women's reproductive autonomy.
Um, but We do have areas where we all have things in common on both sides, and so we try to appeal to those and try- we will-- and I- we try to work with [00:31:30] other people on core issues. Like, we're not going to not work with somebody because they're from the left, or they're not gonna work with you because they're...
We're not gonna work with you because we're f- you're from the right. We take an issue-based approach to everything, and it's all about women and girls. [00:31:45] So I think Jasmine is going to be great on that. She has her own, um, podcast out there. She's got her book, um, and she's just been very dynamic and energizing for us, so very excited, and I hope you get to meet her.
[00:31:59] Stephanie: Yeah. So tell us [00:32:00] about some of Wolfe's projects, what you guys are up to. Oh,
[00:32:03] Elspeth: yes. Thank you. Um, we just filed a brief in a case called Chandler versus McComber, and that used to be called Chandler, Chandler versus [00:32:15] CVCR. In 2021, Wolfe filed the first complaint that we know of challenging the placement of men in women's prisons, and that's in California, so it's [00:32:30] special, as everything seems to be from California.
There's a special law called SB 132 that directed the, um, prisons in the state to not, [00:32:45] basically not gatecheck or keep out any men who want to identify as women. If they say they're women, they're women, and they can, they can go into a women's prison. Right now, [00:33:00] I think there's 400 waiting to get in, and many of them do not do a thing to themselves.
This is prison-onset gender dysphoria, and it, [00:33:15] um... many of them are trying to get into the women's prison because they like women, and if they're on any hormones like estrogen when they get in, because their estrogen in some cases might get measured [00:33:30] or taken, um, if they have an estrogen prescription, they'll stop taking it and sell it to the women because the women cannot get hormone replacement therapy in prison So the men also...
So [00:33:45] what this did is it's, it eliminated all gatekeeping, and so you can imagine when you let more men into women's prisons, um, it, it's very difficult for the women because, uh, uh, there's a, there's a big body of [00:34:00] research out there about how women in an all women's group or an all girls group derive a lot of benefit from that, or mental health benefit, a sense of trust or building or nurturing.
But you put a man or a male or [00:34:15] boy into that circumstance and the group breaks it completely. So it destroys the trust and camaraderie among the women, um, and it creates, uh, a competitive environment for some of them who are trying to attract the male attention. [00:34:30] But it also, um, causes, you know, the, the men are, are watching them get naked and get dressed and get, uh, go to the bathroom and shower, and they're harassing them and, and there's...
And anyway, in one of the cases, in Chambler, our [00:34:45] case, there's a man named Tremaine Carroll who was identifying as female and was transferred into the women's prison that we're, we're dealing with. And He had raped two women in prison when he was in the other women's unit. [00:35:00] So finally they transferred him out, and he's, he's waiting for his trial on rape.
But he's a violent criminal already. He'd been arrested for kidnapping and I think rape. Um, so he- but he was let into the women's prison. He did not do a thing to transition, didn't [00:35:15] even change his name, "Just call me she, please." And, um, the judge in the trial, the criminal trial, has ruled that this man, Tramaine Carroll, will be referred to as she or her.
And that is [00:35:30] just devastating to, to a victim, to have to refer to their rapist as a female. "She raped me with her penis." That's not, not a normal sentence. So that's very disturbing, and that's still going on. He [00:35:45] intervened in Chandler, um, and it was allowed, um, for him to intervene because he claims he has an interest in women's prisons and being in a women's prison.
So the Chandler case started in 2021. Wolf filed a complaint. [00:36:00] Eventually, it took a long time, but the complaint was dismissed, uh, with permission to refile. Wolf refiled it in 2024, and it still took a long time. Um, and then they dismissed it again. But you could- you can refile [00:36:15] it if you just do this little narrow piece.
But we decided the better bet was to, at this point, appeal. So we filed a brief in the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals. We don't have a date for that yet, um, for an argument or [00:36:30] anything, but our brief was just recently filed, and we're arguing essentially that this is a deprivation of women's rights, and to, to pretend that men can be women and put them in an enclosed environment that the women cannot leave.
I [00:36:45] mean, even all the other cases with adults where, you know, the v- like when, when, when Listen to Tish found the, uh, men, uh, man over and over again in the locker room. At least she can walk away, but the women in prison cannot leave, [00:37:00] and they cannot get away from these men, and it has created a huge problem for them, for their mental health, for their physical health.
[00:37:08] Stephanie: It's also cruel and unusual punishment- I agree ... especially when so many of the women in prisons are [00:37:15] N- not to excuse their actions, but partly they're because of trauma that was passed along from early in their life
[00:37:22] Elspeth: Yes. At least 85 to 90% of them are in there as a result of actions that [00:37:30] are directly related to past abuse, either as a child, then also as an adult or as an adult.
And so they're not... I- it's interesting 'cause I've been researching a lot about prisons re- lately, [00:37:45] and originally there were no separate prisons for women. It was a reform movement that brought them in in, in the 1800s. Um, and women were just thrown in with men. Like, here's a woman in with 800 [00:38:00] men and male guards.
Well, no surprise they become pregnant. Um, a- and women were also considered different than male prisoners in that male prisoners they thought needed discipline and training in [00:38:15] skills so they could work, and they just needed discipline and training and something, you know, to, to... So they had programs and things like that.
But women were considered morally inferior and morally fallen if they were in prison. They were usually [00:38:30] in for reasons that would, were related to mor- moral issues, more like being drunk in public or ex- you know, showing too much of something, um, disorderly conduct, which we know now is [00:38:45] just maybe disagreeing with somebody.
Um, so they were consider- considered moral, moral, moral- morally fallen and could not be rehabilitated. So they often didn't get the programs that the men got when they did get a new prison [00:39:00] for them finally. So it's, um, it's a very important issue. We've been working, um, in that. So we've got the Chandler case going on in the Ninth Circuit.
There are two cases I'm keeping a very close eye on. [00:39:15] Um, one is called, um, Fleming versus Warden Rule, and the other one is called Doe versus McHenry. It could be Blanche at any minute. It used to be Doe versus Bondi. And [00:39:30] the cases are related in this way. In Fleming versus Warden Rule- The lawyers for Rhonda Fleming managed to [00:39:45] get a protective order that Rhonda and another woman who was filing with her did not, could not be housed with men.
Which this was the first time this ruling ever, I, that I know of happened. This was just recently, [00:40:00] last, this year. And then the lawyers got that extended to the other women in the prison, that those women couldn't be housed with men. But, you know, we've got Trump's [00:40:15] executive order on prisons, but that's all been stayed and by a lot of court cases.
So the, um, the prison knew they could not put the trans-identifying men into a men's prison, so [00:40:30] they kept them in the female prison, but they put them on a separate floor and segregated them from the women, which gave the women a lot of relief. But then, but they still had recreation time and women were there, and they still had cafeteria time with them.
[00:40:45] But because they were really mad by then that the women had basically rejected them and k- you know, gotten them out of the women's prison, so they started harassing them during those times, and so the judge had to extend the restraining order. "No, you can't eat with them and you can't [00:41:00] even go out for a walk when, when they're out there."
So there's that restriction now, um, but they're still in a women's prison, and they're together as trans-identifying males. Um, but they are now claiming that they [00:41:15] are experiencing worsened gender dysphoria because they're not with the women, or the other women, as they call it. So they're not seeing themselves as adequate women to cure their gender dysphoria.
They, they [00:41:30] seem to want to use the, uh, um, women to help them with their, this is what they say anyway, their psychological state. Amy Ichikawa, who's done so much work for women in prison, has said, "Look, women aren't support animals. You know, we're not your, your s-" [00:41:45] It, then we're not here to solve their emotional problems.
Um, so, so that's been, uh, that's an ongoing struggle, that case. So that, we've got that protective order there. That's a few, a law firm of, uh, Schaffer [00:42:00] and Jaffe, or Scherer and Jaffe, and the lawyers are John Grahl and Brian Field, and they did what nobody else could do. They got that restraining order, um, keeping a protective order for the, those women in that prison.
So [00:42:15] what they did, which I'm very grateful for, and Wolfe supported them in doing this, is they filed a motion to intervene in a case in Washington, DC, and that's also in federal courts. You've got federal court in Texas and federal court in Washington, [00:42:30] DC. Texas judge is saying those women cannot be housed with trans-identifying men.
They need their own space. Get the men out. And then in Washington, DC, this was an action that [00:42:45] was taken by lawyers representing usually ACLU or GLAD or Lambda Defense or some big law firms doing pro bono work. They were suing to keep Trump's executive order from being enforced and keeping those men from being moved back to [00:43:00] a male facility.
Um, and there was a hearing recently in that case, and that's, that judge was very upset about the order in Texas and finding out that the US government, the US Attorney's [00:43:15] Office planned to transfer the trans-identifying men to the facility in Texas because it's a It's a woman's prison, but it's a segregated unit.
So they're not happy about that. They want to be with the [00:43:30] women. They don't just want their own third space. Although originally, I, I think that would've been an acceptable answer. Um, and Chase Strangio had said in, in, in an article or an interview that originally, you know, [00:43:45] the trans people they were talking to, the pr- inmates just did want just a third space.
But they decided, the ACLU decided let's go for the whole thing and, uh, put them, get them into the women's prison, and it's been a disaster for women. It's, this is all over the [00:44:00] country, a disaster. It's a-- there are problems in New Jersey. There are cases starting up. There are problems in New York. Women, you know, they're, they're beaten.
They are stomped on in New York in, in Rikers. There's a [00:44:15] pr- there's a case going in Washington right now, um, where, uh, America First is suing the state for what they've, for what the trans, trans-identified men have been doing to the women. [00:44:30] Um, so there are a lot of cases percolating. This issue is coming up more and more, and I, and I really wish we could grab the public's sympathy and attention for the women.
But as you know, the te- sympathy is usually, "Oh, but [00:44:45] the poor trans guy's gonna get raped in prison." And what I've noticed is that, um, any time there's a conflict between the women and the men, the women lose, but the men's allegation [00:45:00] of harm is accepted. That, "Oh yeah, you'll be-- you can't go to a men's, you will be so hurt."
But the women who have been raped have been told, "Well, that happened in the past. We can't fix that." And if they, uh, are, "Well, but [00:45:15] you're, you're worried about the future? That's speculative. We can't help you there." So they disregard the women and their complaints, but they credit the male complaints, so I'm finding that to be very frustrating.
So we're keeping an eye on Do- Dove v. Blanche. I think that's going to be big somehow. [00:45:30] It's either going to come in conflict with Fleming versus Warden Rule and end up in hopefully a circuit split and maybe get to the Supreme Court. There's another case we're involved in. We're representing a woman who works for the federal government who needs to remain [00:45:45] anonymous, and this case is called, uh, Leanne Withrow versus the, the, uh, everybody in the United States.
She sued every- he sued everybody. He is a civilian employee at a, um- National [00:46:00] Guard unit in Illinois, and he was in the, in the service, but now, you know, he's trans-identified as a woman, and he's suing to get the bathroom rules fixed so that he can go to the [00:46:15] bathroom. Because he maintains since Trump came in and made the executive order about bathrooms, he can no longer use the la- the, the women's room, and he can't use the men's room.
Um, and so he has to hold his urine all [00:46:30] day or, and not drink anything or eat anything 'cause he doesn't wanna have to go to the bathroom. And, you know, this seems to me to be a very important case because there's a lot riding on definitions in that case. What [00:46:45] is a woman? What is a man? Um, and do men who identify as women have a right to female bathrooms?
So that we-- I'm grateful we have, um, [00:47:00] been able to support that lawsuit, um, and file that. So we've got that going on. Um- Then we're keeping an eye on some cases in Massachusetts that could buzz, buzz up, bu- bubble up, but I'm [00:47:15] not ready to, to explain those yet. Um, so that's what we're majorly focused on, working on the prison issue right now a lot.
So then, then last year we had several big cases, um, in this area that were very, that are, [00:47:30] that have stood for a lot. One is, um, scr- U- United States versus Skrmetti, where in Tennessee they had passed a law that, um, prohibited children from having s- sex change or [00:47:45] hormonal treatment, um, or even, you know, arguably they really were arguing around the edges about whether it covered social transition or not, but the Supreme Court said that a state, a state may [00:48:00] impose a rule like that because states often regulate medical care, and you're saying this is medical care, and if the state want, uh, and wants to do that, they can.
What was particularly good about the case in [00:48:15] Tennessee is that the, um, attorney general's office and the... did an excellent job setting the case up for review because they, the judge made findings and the legislature had made [00:48:30] findings. The legislature who passed the law had made all these findings about what their intent was, how they had seen it gone wrong, w- how it hurt people and children.
So, so the, when you have, um, those lower courts or [00:48:45] legislatures making a finding of fact about why they're doing legislation, it really gives the Supreme Court a lot to work with because they could see what the reason was, um, and say that it is a, it's a, it's a good, [00:49:00] it's a law they're certainly entitled to, to pass as a state.
So they said states can ban it. Now, they didn't say states must, and there's no legislation that says all states must. Um, I assume the way the s- [00:49:15] the Supreme Court is going, this will be a matter that remains a state matter. So I think there are 27 states that prohibit it and, um, about 23 that don't. [00:49:30] Uh, in some of the states it's protected by statute, and a few of the states it's even in the constitution, their state constitution protecting gender identity.
What that means for children, I'm not sure, but the states, I think, could protect gender [00:49:45] identity if they wanted to and still not impose, uh, puberty blocking law, uh, effects on children that, that, that just destroy their health and their, their future sex life and their future [00:50:00] reproductive life. Um, then the n- the other big case that came out that year was, um, Taylor versus Mahmood, and this was a case in which a school district was not telling parents what they were [00:50:15] doing and what they were teaching in school.
And that one was a religious issue. Um, it was one on the basis that parents had a right to know about the teaching, and it was all [00:50:30] about notice. And, and that was based on Mahmood's, uh, made the claim that this was, um, undermining his, his and his wife's, um, teaching of their religious beliefs to their child.
So that was a victory. But again, [00:50:45] that's only on religion. Um, there was also Chiles, which I know you're familiar with. Um, and that one, uh, was about counseling in Colorado, and Colorado had passed a law saying, "No conversion [00:51:00] therapy," which conversion therapy has a very bad rep from, um, the gay community because it was used frequently in an effort to keep people from being gay.
Um, there are all sorts of different ways it went. Some were religious, [00:51:15] some were more sci- more, uh, oh, let's just give you a lobotomy or something. So, you know, there are all sorts of ways that was done, and it, and it left... It was, it was very negative. But when you change the meaning of conversion therapy to say [00:51:30] that just talking to a client, if you disagree with them or if you are not going to automatically affirm them, that- That that's conversion therapy if you try to f- talk to them about why they [00:51:45] feel the way they feel, why they want to transition, what they think that means, what they think will change.
If you can't do that, if all a therapist can say is, "Yes, I affirm your gender identity, and no, your oppressed history of [00:52:00] sexual abuse in the family or at a stranger's hands, or your depression, or your eating disorder, or your cutting disorder, or your other mental illness, or your autism, not relevant at all.
Once we take care of this gender thing, you'll [00:52:15] feel great." And that's just a lie. Um, but they were calling that conversion therapy, and I-- and the Supreme Court, I think, saw through that. However, I don't know if you know that Colorado has been working on a new law. You might know more [00:52:30] about it than I do, um, since y- since you are a, a professional in the field.
But they're working on ways of still maintaining affirming therapists, and we'll see what [00:52:45] happens.
[00:52:46] Stephanie: Your trans-identified kid won't listen to reason because reason isn't what they need right now. They need a parent who knows how to communicate in an empathic yet strategic manner. ROGD Repair gives you over [00:53:00] 120 lessons in the psychology and communication tools that actually work when normal parenting doesn't.
Plus Repair Bot, your 24/7 AI coach trained on my entire body of work, ready to help you navigate tough moments in real [00:53:15] time. Visit rogdrepair.com and use code SOMETHERAPIST2026 to take half off your first month I discussed the backlash against Chiles versus Salazar with Diana [00:53:30] Lutfy in episode 222. Um, yeah, I mean, Colorado fought back, right?
Kayla or Kaylee, I forget, Chiles was from Colorado-
[00:53:39] Announcer: Great ...
[00:53:40] Stephanie: and a outspoken conservative Christian therapist who wanted to practice in accordance with her [00:53:45] beliefs and wanted to help children sincerely to, um, become comfortable in their bodies, and, uh, took her case to the Supreme Court in Chiles versus Salazar, won, and then Colorado fought back with, uh, I, I can't remember the name of the bill, [00:54:00] but I, I do cover that with Diana in episode 222 for any listeners who are curious about that.
Um, Elspeth, you've just covered a lot of ground. I noted at least five different Supreme Court cases or cases.
[00:54:11] Elspeth: We've got
[00:54:12] Stephanie: one more. Okay, one more, and then let's [00:54:15] go back to the, to the issue of men in women's prisons. Sure. 'Cause you've covered men in women's prisons, um, parents' rights in schools, and, uh, the so-called conversion therapy laws.
Right. So that's, that's a lot of ground. What's- It
[00:54:27] Elspeth: is a
[00:54:28] Stephanie: lot of ground ... what's one more?
[00:54:29] Elspeth: This one [00:54:30] is important, and it was called, um... There were two cases that were combined for the s- for the Supreme Court, uh, West Virginia versus BPJ and, uh, Little versus Hecox. And in those two cases, [00:54:45] they were, um, trans-identified, uh, high schoolers looking for, or m- maybe one was a middle schooler at one point, looking f- well, being upset that they could not-- Well, they were being rejected from the female [00:55:00] team th- 'cause the state had a, had said no, no boys in girls' sports.
And so they challenged it, and it went all the way to the Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court said... And this is what was int- very interesting. Um, [00:55:15] it, it, it come-- It's discussed as a 6-3 opinion, and it is on equal protection. But on Title s- Title VII, I'm, no, sorry, no, Title IX, which is the sports, um, statute, it [00:55:30] was really seven-- It was nine, 9-0.
Um, although Ketanji Jackson Brown's concurrence with that read like a dissent. She said she was in agreement that Title IX, you know, apply, [00:55:45] uh, definition of sex was going to have to prevail. So it's a se- it's a 9-0 on Title IX, and it's a, uh, 6-3 on equal protection. But they said basically, if a state wants to [00:56:00] prohibit boys from participating in girls' sports, it may It didn't say it must.
So that's where we're focusing now on the-- we have to look at the other, [00:56:15] other states that do not recognize this problem and this deprivation of women's rights and girls' rights, where they still have state law that permits it. So now, now there will need to be a case going to the Supreme [00:56:30] Court to find out whether they're going to say women have rights that are pre- are preserve- women have a federal right and a state right to equal protection of the law under the 14th Amendment, and that means you cannot take [00:56:45] away all these things from women and girls.
Um, I don't know what will happen because they've sent so many things back to say they are states' rights. I could foresee women's rights becoming, um, something that is remanded to the states and committed to the [00:57:00] states. And that kind of, um, bother-- you know, that makes me nervous, very nervous. Um, so that-- Okay, so then you wanted to go back to women in prison.
[00:57:12] Stephanie: Well, let's just recap. So we have prisons, [00:57:15] schools, sports, and therapy. These are sort of four of the biggest frontiers on which the gender turf wars are taking place. Um, obviously therapy is [00:57:30] my pet issue, and even still I can't possibly keep up with everything going on just at that intersection, um, although it is the one where I am the most opinionated.
Um But, uh, uh, [00:57:45] and, and from there, I'm opinionated about human nature. I'm opinionated about people, right? And, and, and as much as my personal biases have me frequently frustrated [00:58:00] and impatient with moral cowardice, I, I do somewhere in my heart of hearts, like, have empathy for people who just don't have as much fight in them.
Like, I don't, I don't even have that much fight in me. I'm just... I'm a reluctant [00:58:15] warrior. Like, I'm a really sensitive person. God made me weird because I am very sensitive for somebody with such a fighting spirit. You don't usually see these things together. You usually have someone with my level of sensitivity living the life of an [00:58:30] artist, living the life of a hippie, or you have people with a fighting spirit and a thicker skin.
I have been blessed and cursed with this mix of being extremely sensitive, but also not being able to stay out of trouble because I am too [00:58:45] opinionated, and I feel the call sometimes, and I'm pulled into battle. Like, and, and, and even right now, I was telling you before we started recording, like, I'm getting over a major illness.
I was in the ER five days ago. Like, I'm just barely... Like, I haven't even started [00:59:00] drinking coffee again yet. My system has not resettled. And still I'm feeling, like, pulled into battle because I see things happening in my field, and I'm like, "Oh, it's my turn to speak out against this. I'm, I'm the one with the perspective to say something on this, isn't it?"
So I, I [00:59:15] just need to name that that's an ongoing inner conflict for me as someone who has a mixed nature. Um, that being said, you know, therapy is the, the issue I know the most about. My- I care about all these. I would say schools is [00:59:30] kind of the second, if only because my day-to-day work, I spend more hours in a week talking to parents of trans-identified youth than I spend doing anything else, and that means I know a little bit about the school issue from a [00:59:45] lot of people.
Um, the prison issue is, you know, uh, the sports issue is increasingly front and center, especially now that we have, like, Sophie Cunningham in the public eye. Um, and I know you wanted to say something about her, but the prison issue is, you know, it's the one that's the easiest to [01:00:00] forget because it's society's outcasts.
It's people who are literally locked away without an ability to communicate, and they're the, the people that it's hardest for the average person to feel compassion for because you're like, "Well, obviously they did something wrong to get lo- locked up. I mean, yeah, I know cruel and unusual [01:00:15] punishment isn't right, but, like, they did something to deserve it."
And like, you know, it's, it's easiest to rationalize. But I did wanna ask when you were talking about all those prison cases, and it's okay if you don't have an answer on the spot, 'cause I, I didn't warn you that I'd be asking this. I didn't know. But do you [01:00:30] have any estimate of, like, how many women in the United States are in prisons potentially being subjected to male inmates?
[01:00:40] Elspeth: Um, I do not have the number[01:00:45]
Um, I pro- we probably, you see, this is why it's getting tricky again because it's hard to trust numbers now since how many women are in your prison? Oh, 40. Well, [01:01:00] how many of them are trans identified? Female women. Right. So that's one thing that I'm really worried about. Right, '
[01:01:08] Stephanie: cause the records are falsified.
[01:01:10] Elspeth: Right.[01:01:15]
[01:01:16] Stephanie: Right. People are even, they're taking
[01:01:17] Elspeth: freaking time machines- Yes. Yeah ... and like changing birth certificates. And some prisons maintain a very strict rule about you can't know anything about who's in here because we have to protect their trans identity. Um, and others, you know, you can [01:01:30] see that's a guy in prison with an F by his name and a, and a made up name.
Um- But I, I don't know the number. But federally, um, until Trump issued the executive order, [01:01:45] they, uh, it would be any woman in federal prison was subjected to this. Um, Car- Carswell in Texas is one we, that I've been focused on with Rhonda Fleming and, and those, the lawyers who are getting the pr- [01:02:00] protective order.
California.
[01:02:02] Stephanie: So you're saying federal prison specifically? 'Cause I just Googled it.
[01:02:07] Elspeth: Mm-hmm.
[01:02:07] Stephanie: And there are... This is actually less than I thought. Um, according to Google, there are 9,829 women, I'm gonna put an [01:02:15] asterisk by women, let's say people, in women's federal prisons.
[01:02:19] Elspeth: Right.
[01:02:20] Stephanie: So, so roughly 10,000 women- They're all technically- What, roughly 10,000 inmates and some unknown portion of them are actually men- [01:02:30] Right
terrorizing the remaining- That's right ... prisoners who are women.
[01:02:32] Elspeth: Right. Right. And there was one situa- where, where Rhonda Fleming, you know, she's had some health problems. She's been in prison a long time. She's done an awful lot of good stuff for women, um, in [01:02:45] prison. But, but, um, she was at Carswell because, you know, she had some health issues.
And finally when the judge said, you know, "She can't... I'm gonna issue a protective order for her and this other woman," um, [01:03:00] he also, they were able to move Rhonda to a, a prison facility here in Illinois, and I was able to go meet her. But she wanted to go to Arizona because the air would've been better for her, and she's getting close to being released, but she [01:03:15] needed a drier environment, and they couldn't send her to the Arizona prison 'cause there were too many trans-identifying men in it.
So-
[01:03:22] Stephanie: Okay, let me give you some more numbers.
[01:03:24] Elspeth: Okay, good.
[01:03:25] Stephanie: So I asked Google, "What about state prisons?" It said, "There are approximately [01:03:30] 81,000 women in state prisons." And then it says, "When combining state prisons with federal prisons, local jails, and other facilities, the total number of incarcerated women in the US stands at more than 192,000."
Right. So let's just say, like, just under 200,000 [01:03:45] women, or like, okay, just under 200,000 people in women's facilities, of which an unknown number-
[01:03:52] Elspeth: Mm-hmm ...
[01:03:52] Stephanie: are actually male- Right ... terrorizing their female inmates. That's right. Okay.
[01:03:57] Elspeth: Right.[01:04:00]
Yes. And, um, yeah, yeah, I mean, in this, there's, um, a website called Redux, and, um, Genevieve Gluck does a great job keeping track of a lot of this, and they're... And the [01:04:15] Women's Declaration International USA is also keeping track. Um, so we're trying to, to get more and more information from the states and more and more information from the federal government, but it's very, very hard to do, especially when there's [01:04:30] litigation.
Nobody wants to tell you anything. Um, or when they anticipate litigation coming, they don't want to answer. So public records requests were made in Maine. Public records requests were made in Massachusetts. Massachusetts said they couldn't answer anything 'cause [01:04:45] privacy. Maine, you know, there's a lawsuit there now, thank goodness.
Um, and they're trying to get more information. But ultimately, the goal is to get the men out of women's prisons. Women do not deserve, uh, no matter what, your, your sentence is what the judge [01:05:00] imposes for your crime, and it should be proportionate to the crime committed. And I don't think that women being, um, having their comp- their privacy totally invaded by the male eye and [01:05:15] gaze or the, um, them opening up the shower curtains and looking or looking through the top half if it's slow or opening the bathroom on them or pushing them up against the wall and feeling them up or raping them in the middle of the [01:05:30] night or, um, stomping on them or beating them up is what anybody had in mind.
Um, but women are being abused in prison every day this way, and it is in [01:05:45] fact an international, a, a violation of international human rights, which says that men and women should be kept separate in prison facilities. Um, and we did, we'd learned that in the [01:06:00] 1800s, and things got better and better and, um- Now we're, we're going, I think, backwards, where women are back in prison with men, and the consequences of that are, um, [01:06:15] immense and, and, and totally counter to any rehabilitative benefit they can get from prison.
[01:06:22] Stephanie: I'm not really good at, like, keeping track of details of things that aren't in my wheelhouse. Um, I'm, I'm good enough at [01:06:30] conversation that I can have a podcast where we cover a lot of different topics. But in terms of, like, keeping facts straight that aren't my wheelhouse, I-- here's my excuse. So much brain space devoted to remembering details of my clients' lives.
That's my excuse, okay? 'Cause my [01:06:45] clients, I have detailed mental maps of their entire family who I've never met before, and that's a lot to keep track of. Um, I also just don't have a good brain for facts and figures and dates and names and things like that. But i- the overall picture I'm getting, [01:07:00] i- throughout a lot of what you're sharing, is that we can have a piece of news that looks and sounds like really good news, like an executive order or a Supreme Court victory, but the [01:07:15] implementation of those protections doesn't follow smoothly in the way that we might imagine.
I mean, parents' rights to direct the education of their children and raise [01:07:30] children according to their own values, you know, women's rights to not be subjected to cruel and unusual punishment, being locked up with male criminals, um, you know, women's rights to fair sport, like, all of these issues, a- and therapy, right?
I mean, I can tell you [01:07:45] from the inside, kind of, I'm, I'm inside-outside. I'm like a world bridger with therapy and not therapy. But I'm friends with enough therapists, and I'm in, I'm enough in the dialogue of mental health that, you know, Chiles v. Salazar didn't change everything overnight for us either, [01:08:00] right?
There's, there are still people being bullied and intimidated and silenced and, and there's still a real shortage of good care. And without launching into more detail, let me just say some of the professional organizations that should be [01:08:15] leading the charge on expanding the Overton window in a more gender-critical direction are essentially doing the opposite right now.
So, like, the, the cultural change, the implementation, the, the practical aspects of these things, like, it [01:08:30] doesn't look super encouraging from here. So as a retired judge, what light can you shed on that process?
[01:08:37] Elspeth: I see progress because I think w- I think recently [01:08:45] the pro Sophie movement, you know, We Love Sophie-
[01:08:49] Stephanie: Sophie Cunningham
[01:08:50] Elspeth: w- has been, has been good because She, she didn't say anything about trans people. She's just positive about [01:09:00] women. And if we're allowed to at least do that, that's something. So that's something that, hey, we can say, "Yay," for another woman and cheer her on and support her without them being as- How groundbreaking
sorted out. I [01:09:15] know. It is groundbreaking, isn't it? Um, but I understand the concern because the thing about this issue is that it is in so [01:09:30] deep and so early. Um, it's just most parents don't know what their schools are teaching children in this arena. And you can find out. [01:09:45] Um, schools don't want you to know necessarily, but how it got into the schools is, I think, through, um, National Association of Sex Education, which pr- developed a curriculum.
And who doesn't need a [01:10:00] curriculum f- for sex education? And, and but in any event, if you take a school district that you're interested in, maybe in your area, and you wanna find out what the curriculum is, you can go to the website. You, but you have to dig. You really have to dig to [01:10:15] find it. And often their teaching objectives for kindergarten and first grade and second grade are to introduce the idea of gender identity.
And to me, that is so [01:10:30] Appalling because children at that age are vulnerable, really, really vulnerable, and believe all sorts of things. And if they start- are starting to be taught that in early grade school years [01:10:45] and all through col- all through their schooling, then they get to college and it's more of the same, it's going to be impossible to turn this around because we'll be still educating a substantial part of the [01:11:00] population that this is a reality, that you can change your sex.
[01:11:04] Stephanie: Don't you think that when it's shoved down kids' throats from an early age, it sparks an oppositional impulse? It's like- It can ... "Oh, that's like old people being obsessed-" Yeah ... "with [01:11:15] their..." I mean, it reminds me of like when I, my, my like fifth grade culmination ceremony, how our teacher wanted us to sing a song by The Beatles.
[01:11:25] Announcer: Mm-hmm.
[01:11:25] Stephanie: We also sang a Boyz II Men song, and I went to a mostly Black school, so that was a little bit more timely. [01:11:30] Um, we sang a Boyz II Men song, but we also sang a Beatles song that like none of the kids or their families had any affinity for, and it was like, ugh, so old and out of touch, right? And I, I...
That's the image that comes to [01:11:45] mind when I think of kids who instinctively might know better, having this stuff just constantly shoved down their throats.
[01:11:53] Elspeth: I think you're right. I think that, that that can spark a rebellion, and that I have [01:12:00] seen little examples here or there of a kid, kids of, of the younger generation, I don't even know what number it is or letter it is, starting to say, "Oh, that's, that's ridiculous.
We're, we're over that. That's old."
[01:12:12] Stephanie: Alpha, I think. We're on Alpha. Maybe. [01:12:15] Yeah,
[01:12:17] Elspeth: Alpha. The
[01:12:17] Stephanie: kids who are becoming teenagers. N- Right. The, the- I'm raising, I'm raising Gen Alpha.
[01:12:20] Elspeth: Oh, okay. You know them then. You know them well.
[01:12:23] Stephanie: Um- Skibidi
[01:12:24] Elspeth: rizzler. Ay.
[01:12:26] Stephanie: No cap.
[01:12:28] Elspeth: Okay. [01:12:30] The, uh, yeah, so it's interesting because it can, but it can also be just what a confused kid needs as a handle to grab onto to, to say, "I'm different and I'm going to bury [01:12:45] all my other problems under this issue," which they- they're t- still telling me I can fix.
So there's, there's a real need at the local school board level for parents to be out there demanding to know what's being taught and demanding that it be changed. [01:13:00] Otherwise, it's, it's setting up these, some of these kids for a lifelong tragedy.
[01:13:08] Stephanie: My advice to parents in the audience hearing this is if you have the opportunity and the bandwidth to [01:13:15] engage in that activism while your kids are still young and trust you, that's the time to do it.
You don't wanna be that parent at the school board meeting when your kid already thinks they're trans or non-binary or something like that, because that's not the battle you need to be fighting in that moment. You [01:13:30] need to make educated decisions about picking your battles. That's what my course is for, ROGD Repair.
So go to rogdrepair.com if you are a parent in this. But yeah, for the parents who have the capacity, if your kids are in elementary school or they, they [01:13:45] trust you, um, there's no major rift in the family, that would definitely be the moment to be advocating. And it's, it's really easy to underestimate how early this stuff starts.
Um, I would recommend, uh, listeners check out my conversation with Anita Bartholomew, [01:14:00] who I've had on this podcast, um, for some examples of the curriculums being taught to elementary school students.
[01:14:06] Elspeth: I think that's really important what you're saying. And it, i- even not with gender, right? But I re- I remember [01:14:15] raising my son and seeing other kids and seeing them, how they were behaving and, and knowing I could just say to him, "That's not how you behave.
Don't do that," and he would, he would listen. We had a good relationship. But at three and four, if you cannot manage your child [01:14:30] then, you're not going to be managing that child when they're 18 or 15 or 14.
[01:14:36] Stephanie: Oh, say more about that.
[01:14:37] Elspeth: What?
[01:14:38] Stephanie: Say more. Oh, well- Say more about your, your insights into the connection between- Well, my, my-
preschool age and-
[01:14:44] Elspeth: Yeah. It's like you [01:14:45] need to esta- I mean, this is what I think of, uh, you know, this, I don't have any background in this or training or education, but it looks to me that if parents don't know that they have internal authority, and that, the kid [01:15:00] feels that. If you feel weak in your ab- your authority as a parent.
And I'm not recommending drastic things like, you know, corporal punishment or anything horrible, but- [01:15:15] Early on is when they learn how to be polite and how to... And, and how you treat them and how you treat other people. They, they're watching you. So treating them like human beings, but [01:15:30] expecting them to behave that way too, I think has to be done early because the, the earlier the better, is if you cannot manage a four-year-old, a three-year-old, or a five-year-old, or a six-year-old, and we've all seen it in restaurants, right?
[01:15:45] You can see some children sit wonderfully in a restaurant and enjoy a meal, and other children are running around, and the parents are not doing anything about it. Um, but, but they're not going to be able to rise to the, to... The child will not be [01:16:00] prepared to accept your authority later when it's m- when it rises up for an emergency.
Um, they're used to, you know, doing what they want. And, uh, so I think that, yeah, I think that if you, if you lose the [01:16:15] battle early, you, you may have lost the entire battle. You can't expect to create it ag- in the same way. Okay, now today that he's 15, we're going to start with some rules around the house.
[01:16:28] Announcer: Mm-hmm.
[01:16:28] Elspeth: It doesn't... It's too late [01:16:30] You might have more optimism than I do, but
[01:16:33] Stephanie: I, I agree with your take on the problem and, and I get those families who are, you know, years into having [01:16:45] never established parental authority in the first place, having never established that their no carries any weight. Um, you know, or having established a pattern where no means try pushing me harder.
If you can knock me down, then you can get a yes. I mean, if you've [01:17:00] established that pattern, then you're in for a wild ride when you decide that you need to take your boundaries seriously because... A- and I prepare parents for this in my course and my coaching. I teach about, uh, intermittent reward and extinction bursts, right?
So I teach about the psychological principles that [01:17:15] if you're used to being able to get something occasionally if you just try hard enough- Right ... then when, when the rules change, you're not gonna learn that the rules have changed overnight. You're gonna, you're gonna try your absolute [01:17:30] hardest to knock that wall down if there's even a 1% chance that you're gonna get what's on the other side of that wall.
And so when parents who aren't used to holding boundaries end up in that position, it can be, it can be brutal, and that's when they come to me for coaching. They're like, they have a [01:17:45] really out of control kid, and they're learning to set boundaries, and it's like, "Okay, buckle your seat belts, take your Dramamine, because this is going to get worse before it gets better.
We have to prepare for the extinction burst."
[01:17:58] Elspeth: Yeah. Uh, [01:18:00] my heart goes out to parents. I've talked to so, so many of them who are just heartbroken.
[01:18:06] Announcer: Mm-hmm.
[01:18:06] Elspeth: And I can't imagine anything worse, uh, than-
[01:18:11] Stephanie: Oh, and let me say, in their defense, you know who else finds themself in this position? [01:18:15] Parents of good kids who nev- who never tried that hard to push those boundaries and who didn't- Oh
need a lot of rules. It's- It's parents who d- if, if your child was not that willful when they were younger, and you didn't have thousands of these micro moments of [01:18:30] boundary testing and establishing, right? If you never had to show your kid what your mean face looks like and what no can really mean if they push too...
Like, if you never had to show them that, and then they start dabbling with something really [01:18:45] dangerous when they're 15, that can be even worse. So- Oh, wow ... in their defense, some parents never said- Yeah ... no too harshly because they never had to.
[01:18:53] Elspeth: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, also there's a group of parents who have been [01:19:00] Taught this too through, um, continuing education in their professions.
[01:19:07] Stephanie: Yeah.
[01:19:08] Elspeth: So, you know, it takes a while to realize sometimes that, uh, this is, this is why I like [01:19:15] that FTC case that, uh, was brought, um, the Federal Trade Commission against WPATH, the World Professional- Hmm ... Association for Transgender Health.
[01:19:24] Stephanie: Oh, yeah. Can you tell us what Glenna's up to? Because Glenna is so busy doing what Glenna's doing now that [01:19:30] Glenna can't come on podcasts.
She has- Mm-hmm ... been on my podcast since before her current position, but tell us what Glenna's doing. Glenna
[01:19:36] Elspeth: Goldys. Um, Glenna is working... Well, Glen- I've heard this referred to as the Tish, um, oh, now I'm forgetting what-
[01:19:43] Stephanie: Hyman. [01:19:45] Tish Hyman?
[01:19:45] Elspeth: Hi- uh, that her, no, um, Letitia Jo- what's the, uh, attorney general in New York where Glenna used to work?
Letitia- Sorry ... I'm forgetting her last name. I don't know. But that this is Letitia butterfly effect. She, uh, s- Glenna [01:20:00] had gotten fired from the attorney general's office in New York for taking an, a position that, uh, she was in the consumer fraud department, and she said, "You know, there's consumer fraud going on in this medical conversion."
And, [01:20:15] um, eventually she ends up fired and picked up by the Federal Trade Commission, and they could not have gotten a better attorney to who really knew this and is so smart and who understands all this. And of course, there are many other lawyers working with her now, [01:20:30] but Um, there's a complaint finally filed by the FTC charging that WPATH has committed fraud, and that all these providers are committing fraud when [01:20:45] they change, when they use an, an, um, a diagnosis code, an ICD, that is not quite true.
So somebody comes in who you- they want to provide, um, hormone cross- wrong sex hormones [01:21:00] for, and the diagnosis will say, uh, endocrine disorder oth- not otherwise specified or something like that instead of, you know, they, they can't bill if it's, you know, they- sometimes, some places they can, but not all places can they do that billing.[01:21:15]
[01:21:15] Stephanie: People can learn more about that issue that Elspeth was just talking about on a couple of episodes, well, several episodes of this podcast. The main ones I would refer you to would be episode number 191, where I spoke with Dr. Eitan Heim, who's doing great [01:21:30] work on this issue. It's called 191, Insurance Fraud Enables Medical Abuse of Trans Kids.
Trans is in quotes. Uh, Dr. Eitan Heim blows the whistle again. So that's one episode that I'd recommend. And another that I'd recommend on this issue [01:21:45] is episode 195, The Medical Mafia: How the AMA Manufactures Consensus on Gender Care with Dr. Travis Morrell. So very important for listeners who are concerned about the gender issue to understand what's going on with, with [01:22:00] medical fraud because, I mean, they're using fraudulent diagnoses, fraudulent billing codes.
It's a mess, and I'm so glad that GLENA's working on it.
[01:22:07] Elspeth: Absolutely. The other area I think we're seeing some action is in the Office of Civil [01:22:15] Rights, um, under education, where there, there are 18 investigations going on of states for their school districts in terms of, um, what they're doing with regard to gender firm- you know, teaching gender [01:22:30] identity, um, and things of that nature.
So they're, they're doing a serious investigation. Um-
[01:22:36] Stephanie: Well, s- wait, say more.
[01:22:38] Elspeth: Well, the Office of Civil Rights i- um, is investigating 18 states' [01:22:45] school districts. Um, like in, for example, in Massachusetts, there's one. It's, um, Fox- it's about a school in Foxborough, Massachusetts, so that's being challenged.
Minnesota is being looked into, um, in [01:23:00] terms of their inclusive policies and whether they violate Title IX in education. So there-- but there are 18 states where- The Department of Education wants to know what the heck are you teaching these kids? [01:23:15] And has there been any hiding of it, and is it being hidden from parents?
Um, so, so all that's going on. So there's a lot happening. Um, I'm grateful for the executive orders. I'm grateful for these things that they're [01:23:30] doing. I worry, given the nature of our elections, um, that this can just be tossed off or criticized as, "Oh, that's just Trump. Oh, that's just this, you know, [01:23:45] r- crazy, crazy radical right wings," and I mean radical in a bad way, right?
Radical, um, s- stuff. It's not-- And that, that all that will disappear somehow if, if things change. [01:24:00] But I ho- I'm hoping they can get the, get their, get to their answers soon, is, I guess is what I'm saying, before the ground shifts from under everybody.
[01:24:10] Stephanie: Hmm. Well, any final words of wisdom for us? I feel [01:24:15] like we've, we've covered so many different issues.
[01:24:17] Elspeth: Well, you know, Stephanie, there are so many issues here. Um, and I, I feel like we've only just started, you know, just started touching on, on, on them all, but there is [01:24:30] so much. Um, one I would just say, there's a case pending. US Supreme Court just granted cert on it in April, um, and that is St. Mary's Parish versus, and I'm gonna forget their last name, but that's okay.
But [01:24:45] that's about, again, schools and relig- and that involves I think Colorado. Could that be true? Yes, it could. Colorado's preschool plan where you, the preschools have to be in compliance with their gender identity [01:25:00] theories. And so the Catholic Arch- the Catholic parishes are looking to be excused from that, and the Supreme Court took that, although they denied it in several other cases.
Um-
[01:25:12] Announcer: Whoa.
[01:25:13] Elspeth: Yeah. [01:25:15] So any words of wisdom, we just need to keep, keep it up. We need to keep at it. We've had some apparent victories. We don't know how those are going to shake out in the long run, but we've made some progress. I think there's a lot [01:25:30] more progress in that people can talk about it more. Um, we'll see, you know, should, you know, the New York Times ran an article, The Washington Post ran an ar- these are big deals.
Um, so I think there's more freedom of speech around it, [01:25:45] um, but it's still risky, uh, for people to challenge the conventional, what has become the conventional talking points. Um, so I say stay alert and, and keep your eyes open to this, because [01:26:00] it is, it is out there. It's pernicious. It slips in. And, and language I think is important.
Watch your language. Um, language, um... We cannot adopt the language of, of the gender [01:26:15] identity theory and movement. Um, we can, but we can't, I don't think we should be brutal or harsh in how we refer to them either. So we need to [01:26:30] be positive. We are positive for women and girls and children, and that's what we're focused on, is protecting their rights to safety, security, privacy, protecting the right of a child to grow up intact [01:26:45] To get through puberty.
Um, because if they get those blockers, then not on- that puberty does a lot. It does a lot with your bones and it does a lot with your brain, not just sex. And, uh, so-
[01:26:59] Stephanie: A lot of this feels [01:27:00] very much like it boils down to the First Amendment, like our right to not believe in gender identity, right?
[01:27:09] Elspeth: I think
[01:27:09] Stephanie: you're right.
Or like, I mean, the, the women in prisons who are being pressured and, and I [01:27:15] mean, so many of these women, they come from poverty. They, they're not educated. They don't know what views are politically correct. They haven't read fricking Judith Butler, okay? Like, they're surviving, and the, the [01:27:30] expectation that they're supposed to look at a butt-naked emperor and conjure up these magical, complicated robes on him in their imagination, like it's way too complicated to say the [01:27:45] least, uh, right?
But so, so it's like people's right to decline to participate in an ideology, right? Like, our, our right to say, "Hey, I get that you believe you humans can change sex, and this is America where you [01:28:00] have the right to believe that. I have the right to not believe it. So how come you're forcing my participation in something on the grounds that I hold a belief that I don't have?"
[01:28:09] Elspeth: Right. Right. I think that's absolutely right. That is a great way to argue it and a great way to look at [01:28:15] it. Um, we don't have to believe it and we don't have to accept it as just, you know, how we are, you know? We, we can, um, reject it and still speak up about it, and if, if we can, [01:28:30] and, um, keep our eyes open.
There's a case in Connecticut where-- that was on hold pending that BPJ case where they said states may prohibit men in boys' and girls' sports, but the Connecticut [01:28:45] case will be the mirror opposite. It will be must a state exclude boys because boys are being excluded. Yeah. Um, or do girls have a right rather to have a f- free space?
So it's a slight-- it's the opposite [01:29:00] of what BPJ was, where that one was a ban on a trans-identifying kid. This is a, not a ban on the trans-identifying child participating in sports. It's, um, affirmatively saying [01:29:15] they can, and the girls are challenging it. I have a Substack. Um, I can be reached at, um, boardpresident@womensliberationfront.org.
Um, and I'm on [01:29:30] Twitter under EBC Law or EBClaw, depending how you're looking at it.
[01:29:37] Stephanie: Great. So we will make sure to put all those links in the show notes. What's your, what's your Substack again?
[01:29:42] Elspeth: Uh, Before Justice Was Blind. [01:29:45]
[01:29:45] Stephanie: Hmm. Before justice was blind.
[01:29:47] Elspeth: Yes, because did you know the blindfold on Lady Justice, which everybody thinks is because justice is blind, right?
Justice w- doesn't need to [01:30:00] see because she has second sight. That was the original meaning of the, of the, um, mask over her eyes. The blindfold was that the, uh, archetype of justice who [01:30:15] manifested through, uh, one of the Greek goddesses, Themis, did not... She had second sight. She could see everything. She could see their souls.
So she did not need to see, which is the original [01:30:30] meaning.
[01:30:30] Stephanie: I like that. I like bringing it to that spiritual dimension. And, um, regarding something on my mind that I, I will be speaking and writing about in greater detail soon, um- [01:30:45] You know, my industry, psychotherapy, is, psyche means soul, right? And psychotherapy means care of the soul.
It doesn't mean care of the ego.
[01:30:58] Elspeth: Right.
[01:30:59] Stephanie: And, [01:31:00] uh-
[01:31:00] Elspeth: Oh, what
[01:31:01] Stephanie: a great distinction. And so I, I think that to truly love people, 'cause I, I believe that love is, is what drives the essence of all real work, and to truly love people, whether you're tasked with the care of the soul as a [01:31:15] psychotherapist is, whether you're tasked with being a representative of justice on earth, which I think of as, like, a very, um, a, a role that must be greeted with a lot of humility.
You know, I've vented to you per- personally, right, in our one-on-one chats [01:31:30] about, about what I think, uh, the, the duty that someone is taking on by being an arbiter of justice on earth, like how I think that needs to be held with reverence and humility. Um, uh, regardless, like, whatever role one is [01:31:45] tasked with, these are, these are duties to the soul, right?
Not, not to the appearances of things. And so where I feel like psychotherapy is getting lost, um, is where we're confusing those two, right? Whe- whether when we're [01:32:00] looking at our duty to the soul of the patient and conflating it with a sense of responsibility to the constructs that that person has created, which are not necessarily the same thing.
[01:32:12] Elspeth: I think that is an excellent point,
[01:32:14] Announcer: and, [01:32:15] and, um, the Greek myths have a lot to offer
[01:32:19] Elspeth: in many ways, and, and, uh, psyche certainly does also, you know, refer to the soul and, and the transformation we can all go through. [01:32:30] But it's an inner one. It's not, not
[01:32:34] Announcer: a physical one.
[01:32:35] Stephanie: Well, Elspeth, thank you as always for keeping it real.
Um, and you told people where to find you. Any other words before we close?
[01:32:44] Elspeth: Nope. Thank you. [01:32:45] Um, if you're looking for a cause to donate to, you know, Women's Liberation Front is, is available. Um, and we're trying to just, you know, keep fighting on the legal front. We're also starting a series of webinars that will be open to the public.[01:33:00]
Um, another brilliant idea by our brilliant new director, Jasmine Fall. And, uh, so maybe we'll see you on one of those. Um, so we can look for those webinars upcoming in the future about all sorts of different angles on [01:33:15] this, on, on, on, on relevant issues.
[01:33:18] Stephanie: Sounds great. Great. Elspeth Cyper, it's been a pleasure.
Thanks so much for joining me. Nice seeing you
Thank you for listening to You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist. [01:33:30] If you enjoyed this episode, kindly take a moment to rate, review, share or comment on it using your platform of choice. And of course, please remember, podcasts are not therapy and I'm not your therapist. Special [01:33:45] thanks to Joey Pecoraro for this awesome theme song, Half Awake, and to Pods by Nick for production.
For help navigating the impact of the gender craze on your family, be sure to check out my program for parents, [01:34:00] ROGD Repair. Any resource you heard mentioned on this show, plus how to get in touch with me can all be found in the notes and links below. Rain or shine, I hope you will step outside to breathe the air today.[01:34:15]
In the words of Max Ehrmann, "With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful [01:34:30] [01:34:45] world."