Mary Lattimore — Musician

In this episode, Tim sits down with Mary Lattimore — classically trained harpist, solo recording artist, and film composer — for a candid conversation about building an unconventional life in music. Mary traces her path from growing up around the harp in Asheville, through years of juggling multiple part-time jobs in Philadelphia, to the Pew Fellowship that gave her the financial breathing room to focus on music full time. She talks openly about her complicated relationship with money: the anxiety that came with her first large sum, the difficulty of saving when income ebbs and flows, and the game-changing decision to hire a business manager who helped her get her finances under control. Mary also shares the story of co-purchasing an apartment in a tiny village in Tuscany, what it felt like to sign those papers, and why owning a little piece of the world somewhere beautiful felt like a dream she barely knew she was allowed to have.

Mary's question for Tim: What's your advice for someone whose money ebbs and flows and who is bad about saving?

Key Takeaways:

1. Mary describes herself as both a freelance musician and a small business owner — that distinction matters, since thinking of her work as a business has shaped how she manages income, taxes, and team-building.
2. The Pew Fellowship she received in 2014 was the turning point that allowed her to stop working multiple part-time jobs and focus on music full time, though she recalls that seeing her bank account full for the first time actually triggered anxiety rather than relief.
3. Her path out of classical music into her own solo work was gradual and social — friends in Philadelphia asking her to add harp to their records, followed by touring with Thurston Moore, whose mastery of free improvisation pushed her to trust her own musical instincts.
4. Mary co-purchased an apartment in a village of 200 people in Tuscany — splitting the cost and the schedule with a friend — and describes it as a dream she barely believed was possible, especially given that homeownership in the U.S. feels out of reach.
5. Her business manager helped her set up LLCs for both her business and her Tuscany apartment, put her on a regular payroll through her S corp, and helped her make sense of the complex label statements she had previously found overwhelming.

Links:
Send me a question to be answered on a future episode.
Sign up for the Keep It Easy newsletter.
Mary's website
Mary's IG

What is The Thing We Never Talk About?

The Thing We Never Talk About is an educational podcast about personal finance for creatives and other weirdos. We'll discuss managing cash flow with a lumpy income, when to save & when to invest, and how to reduce stress & build confidence when it comes to your money. No hot stock tips, no complicated strategies, and no finance bro jargon. We'll hear from artists, musicians, creative professionals, and other weirdos about how they navigate these questions for themselves. The Thing We Never Talk About is hosted by Timothy Iseler, CFP®, a former recording & touring audio engineer with 18 years experience in the music industry.

Timothy Iseler: Mary, this stuff we've
just been talking about, we're about

to talk about it a little more 'cause
I ask everyone to send me a question

so that I can hopefully deliver some
value to the person I'm speaking with,

and your question was, "What's your
advice for someone whose money ebbs

and flows and who is bad about saving?"

So ver-very mu- very much what
we were just talking about.

Welcome to The Thing We Never Talk About.

My name is Tim Iseler.

I'm a certified financial planner, and I
run my own independent financial advisory

business, helping musicians, artists,
and other people with weird jobs make

smarter decisions with their money.

You can learn more at iselerfinancial.com.

If you have a question about money
or personal finance or mindset or

whatever, please send it to me by
visiting iselerfinancial.com/podcast.

I would love to do another listener
mailbag episode in the future, so

please send me those questions.

And if you enjoy this podcast,
please share it with a friend.

After you've done that, please go
ahead and like and subscribe to the

show wherever you listen to podcasts.

Today I'm speaking with Mary
Lattimore, a classically trained

harpist who has carved out a truly
distinctive niche in the music world.

She writes and releases her own music,
which is already fairly uncommon for

quote-unquote "classical musicians," but
she is also equally at home in highbrow

concert spaces and small rock clubs.

Mary grew up in Asheville, North
Carolina, and her mother is a harpist

who played in the Asheville Symphony
for many years, so playing the harp

is definitely a family tradition.

Mary studied music at a conservatory
before eventually breaking out

of that more traditional path
through collaborations with friends

in Philadelphia and a formative
stint touring with Thurston Moore.

In addition to writing and releasing
her own music, these days Mary

also composes film scores, and she
recently purchased an apartment in

a small village in Tuscany, which we
talk about during this conversation.

You can find Mary on
Instagram @marylattimore.

That's spelled M-A-R-Y L-A-T-T-I-M-O-R-E,
and her website is marylattimore.net.

So thank you for being here, and
please enjoy this conversation

with musician Mary Lattimore

Hi.

Good,

How are you?

Mary Lattimore: how are you?

Timothy Iseler: I'm very well.

Are you at home today?

Mary Lattimore: Yeah.

Timothy Iseler: Do you live in LA?

Mary Lattimore: Yep.

Timothy Iseler: How do you like it?

Mary Lattimore: I love it,

Timothy Iseler: Do you grow up there?

Mary Lattimore: No, I
grew up in North Carolina.

Timothy Iseler: Oh, did you?

That's where I live.

Mary Lattimore: Yeah, Asheville.

My family lives in Polkville now,
which is, like, outside of Shelby.

Timothy Iseler: I'm over in Durham.

Mary Lattimore: Oh, cool.

Timothy Iseler: Do you have any questions
before we get started or anything?

Mary Lattimore: I don't think so.

I would say that this is a topic,
finances and money and stuff, uh, that,

that, yeah, I never talk about it, so...

Timothy Iseler: yeah.

Awesome.

Well, let's get into it.

Mary, what do you tell
people you do for a living?

Mary Lattimore: Professional
musician, freelance musician.

Timothy Iseler: And, and you think of
yourself that way, freelance versus, like,

self-employed or something like that?

Mary Lattimore: I guess I, I also think of
myself as a small business owner, so yeah,

both of those things kind of together.

Timothy Iseler: How long has it been
since you had a job outside of music?

Mary Lattimore: I was lucky enough to
win the Pew Fellowship in Philadelphia

in 2014, and that's when I was
able to stop working several of my

part-time jobs and focus more on music.

But I was still working at a record store.

I worked at a record store for eight
years in Philly and, um, I s- I kept

that job, because this fellowship
came with s- with a chunk of money

that allowed me to s- you know, kinda
slow down a little bit and focus on

music and not be hustling so hard.

So that, that kind of jump-started
me just doing music full time.

Timothy Iseler: How do you think that
time set you up for being able to not

have to go back to having another job?

Mary Lattimore: I I had,
like, five jobs at the time.

I would say, you know, this m- this
amount of money, it was $60,000

spread over two years, spread out
over two years, $30,000 year, and

that just felt like such an enormous
amount of money for me at the time.

Like, uh, just a game changer.

And so I was able to, you know,
stop working a couple of the $10

an hour jobs and to kinda mentally
feel, feel like I was okay.

Timothy Iseler: Mm-hmm.

Mary Lattimore: I think that
actually it was strange because I

was thinking about it the other day.

Um, I was...

I, I sometimes have panic attacks.

I sometimes get, like, anxiety and I would
say that that's when they started because

I saw my bank account full of more money
than I had ever had, and I knew that

it was gonna be going away, you know?

Like, having a full bank account but
then knowing that, like, okay, maybe m-

maybe I didn't have th- these regular
steady, the steady income coming

in anymore, and I was just gonna be
spending this money while focusing

on music, and that was pretty scary.

but like I did feel a great burden lifted
from having to just work all the time.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah, that's great.

How did you begin playing the harp,
and when did it become, become

something you did professionally?

Mary Lattimore: My mom is a harpist.

Timothy Iseler: Oh.

Mary Lattimore: So, I grew up, um...

She, yeah, she was a

Timothy Iseler: Oh,

Mary Lattimore: the Asheville Symphony
for 30 years or something like that.

and so I grew up around the
harp a lot in Asheville.

Um, she was the, the, uh, organizer
of the Blue Ridge Harp Ensemble,

and she taught a lot of lessons.

And so harpists were always coming
in and out of our house, and,

like, the harp was just, like,
the soundtrack of my childhood.

And so my mom, when I turned 11, she was
like, "Now it's time for you to learn."

Yeah, she had, um, she had
a friend who taught me.

Timothy Iseler: she didn't teach you.

Mary Lattimore: no, I

Timothy Iseler: That's good.

Mary Lattimore: from her.

Yeah, I, I thought that was a smart
move on her part, where she was like, "I

know that this is gonna cause tension,
and so get a friend to teach her."

So, yeah.

Timothy Iseler: This is a good segue to
something I wanted to ask you anyway,

which is that m- there are certain types
of instruments that get called classical,

like the harp, but also like the French
horn, you know, you don't really see that

outside of orchestras and symphonies.

And what I've noticed anecdotally is
that a lot of the people who would be

called, you know, air quotes, "classical
musicians", tend to not write and perform

their own music, and they certainly
don't go on tour and play rock clubs.

So I wondered how you found yourself,
even coming from a, a, a harp background,

how did you find yourself breaking
out of that more traditional path?

Mary Lattimore: Well, I always loved
listening to music that was not classical.

You know, I, I played a
lot of classical music.

I went to music conservatory.

I studied classical
music pretty seriously.

but I also collect, know...

Was a record collector and loved to go
see shows and bands, and, um, I just love

all, a lot of different genres of music.

and, you know, a while, for a long
time, I kept those things separately.

Like, what do I listen to for fun,
and what do I play for fun, you know,

for fun and for s- serious study?

and they, those two kind of just went
side by side until, until I moved to

Philadelphia when my friends that I
was going to see shows with and who

were in bands were like, "Why don't
you put a little harp on our record?"

You know?

And that kind of, inspired me to
kind of get out of my comfort zone

of reading music and kind of learn
how to be freer and improvise.

yeah, it s- it started out very socially.

Timothy Iseler: Did that
come naturally to you?

Because, uh, I used to work in recording
studios, and one thing I found was if

there was a string player or a wind or
brass player who could talk to somebody

who didn't know how to write charts and
kind of translate it for everyone else

who did, that was such a huge value add.

Mary Lattimore: It came naturally
in, to me in that I just love

melody, and I feel like, um, you
know, listening to the melody...

I had a teacher in college, Kathleen
Bride, who was a very famous,

wonderful teacher, very world-renowned,
and she, she would always sing

the melody line in my lesson.

She would be like, "Don't
forget this line is the melody".

Even though there are a lot of
different notes, this simple line

is the one that you really want to
bring out, bring out the melody.

And so I think like studying melody
that way and, uh, and, like, thinking

of it as, like, a ribbon of a line, you
know, that winds through, through the

song, I think, like, that kind of made
it easier for me to come up with parts

for other people's records, you know?

To write a ribbon of a melody
on, on the harp that fits in

with the rest of the instruments.

and that was fun, you know?

And so leaving the sheet music
behind felt more liberating than

it did, like, scary or something.

Timothy Iseler: When you're
writing for yourself are you using

sheet music or, or is it some...

No?

Okay, interesting.

Mary Lattimore: I use a lot of loops.

It's...

And, and what I'm writing isn't all that,
um, complicated technically, you know?

It's very, simple melodies, very s-
songy songs, but that are built up.

Like, s- the structure is pretty simple,
but then when you add all the loops and

layers, then that's when it gets kind
of com- complex, the more it builds.

So that's...

not able to really be written down,
it's, it changes every single time.

Timothy Iseler: Okay.

Does-- Is that just, is that improvisation
or is that just circumstance?

Mary Lattimore: A little bit of both.

You know, I feel like every place that
I play, I'm in a different mood, or I'm

taking in what the city is, has offered
that day, or, like, you know, I'll be

going through something emotionally and
that will take, will, that will take

the loops and the layers to a new place.

so it's circumstantial, but then it's
also, you know, like, just because of the

nature of the electronics, like, it's...

You can't really do it exactly
the same way every single time.

Timothy Iseler: Mm-hmm.

Mary Lattimore: so yeah.

I don't...

And it's fun.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Mary Lattimore: part is,
like, to see where it goes.

Timothy Iseler: When did you start playing
that way, like writing, writing on your

own and specifically playing with the
electronics and the loops in that way?

Mary Lattimore: I would say 2014
when I made my first record at

The Withdrawing Room in Philly.

I started to experiment
more with the electronics.

And, before that I was touring with
Thurston Moore for a few years,

and that was really eye-opening
as far as improvisation goes.

Because he was like, "Now, now we're gonna
have a jam in this part of the song."

And like, I was like, "Whoa, I've never
done that with other musicians, like,

live in the moment improv- improvising."

And he's such a master of
free- playing freely like that.

And so that was a real like,
"Okay, let's see how I do it.

Let's see how it goes."

And he, he always really was very
complimentary of the musical choices.

And so I felt like, okay, maybe it's
time to make an- make a solo record

after I finished touring with him,
and was very encouraged by friends

in Philadelphia to do that, so...

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Good, good.

Is that something that maybe, maybe
you didn't know it at the time, but

was that maybe something that gave you
permission to do something on your own?

To be, to kind of be forced in
that situation of, you know, not

knowing how you were gonna do
it and you had to do it anyway?

Mary Lattimore: Mm-hmm.

not permission, but I think
it was always a destiny.

You know?

It was on the horizon, just all
these factors coming together to

kind of push me in that direction.

I think it was only a matter
of time before I would do that,

and I just needed the confidence
step into that destiny, I guess.

Timothy Iseler: That's great.

how do you think about success in terms
of where you fit in the musical landscape?

Are you already successful because
you've been able to do this?

or/and how much does money factor into it?

Mary Lattimore: I would say right now
I feel, and I have felt, think ever

since, you know, 2014 when I got that
Pew fellowship, I would say I've...

it's been success- I feel very successful.

I feel like that I'm able to do
this as a job is very rare, and I

feel extremely, extremely lucky.

I would say, too, that like, I
don't kn- money does factor into

it in that I'm making enough
money now to sustain touring.

You know?

Like, I can, I can, uh, I can buy
the plane tickets for the next

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Mary Lattimore: and I can
afford to have a house in LA.

you know, it's, uh, it's all about, for
me it's all about making my life like

a beautiful collage, and to all these
beautiful experiences and connect with

people that say that they really found
this music to be meaningful to them,

all of that feels successful to me.

I really...

money to me just means, uh, freedom
to, to do the next thing that I'm

supposed to be doing, and to not have
this high anxiety feeling about it.

but I was able, uh, last year I
was able to go in on an apartment

in Tuscany with a friend.

Um, and that feels like a major life
accomplishment, because we split

this, this house and we own it.

And owning a house is something
I would never be able to do in

the United States, I don't think.

Or, like, at least in like a
big huge city like, um, LA.

I feel like, uh, real estate here
is stupidly expensive, and to own a

little piece of the world somewhere,
especially somewhere as beautiful as

Tuscany, is like a real dream come true.

Timothy Iseler: Hmm.

How did you find out about that this
was even something you wanted to do?

Mary Lattimore: You know,
I, I really love Italy.

I have friends in this little tiny
village, and I just saw how many empty

apartments there were in this village.

there aren't a lot of jobs there
and I feel like that, that's

a big reason why, there aren't
that many people living there.

It's a village of 200 people.

so I got a...

And my friend, my friends Dan and
Annabelle, um, she's an architect

and he is a teacher, , they bought
an apartment in this village

because her uncle lives there.

And so...

Or her cousin lives there.

And so she was like, in the pandemic
she's like, "Mary, you should

take a look at Tatti, the village,
and look at the houses for sale.

We just bought one for really, really
cheap, , and we're gonna fix it up.

You should see what you think.

I think you would really like
this place and these people."

so I kinda got it into my mi-
it kinda got the gears turning.

I was like, what if I
could actually do that?

then, you know, just have a little place
to meet up with Dan and Annabelle and

hang out and, and, then my friend Jack was
like, "I would love to do this with you.

You know, we could kinda timeshare
this, uh, kinda schedule it, um,

so that we're splitting it, and
we'll, we'll go in on it together."

And I was like, "This is awesome."

So I just started combing through the
listings and found this place that

didn't need too much res- renovation.

and it's just been fun, really cool.

Timothy Iseler: That's amazing.

How does it work buying property in Italy?

Do they have mortgages like we have
them here, or is it a different system?

Mary Lattimore: No.

Uh, I mean, they do I think for
Italian people probably, but

for us, we bought it in cash.

it was 70,000 euro and
split in half, plus fees.

There's like notary fees and then
translator of the notary fees, and think

there's all different kinds of fees.

But, in general, it was,
um, not so expensive.

and we do have some work to do on
it, but that'll come kinda slowly.

But know, we pay taxes, we pay all the,
the fees of, like, utilities, other than

that, it feels pretty, pretty settled.

Timothy Iseler: That's great.

That's really, really great.

Congratulations.

Mary Lattimore: Thank you.

Yeah.

Feel very proud of that.

Timothy Iseler: When you use that,
are you treating that as just a second

home, or are you thinking of that
as, like, that's where I go to, to

write and, you know, get inspiration?

Mary Lattimore: Yeah.

I treat it, I mean, I treat it as a place
to go after a long tour to decompress.

also getting inspiration for sure.

It's in these rolling
Tuscan hills, you know.

I, I was able to have a harp there in
August, and I wrote about twenty songs.

Timothy Iseler: Wow.

Mary Lattimore: I think part of the reason
is that I have no internet there in the

house and barely any cell phone service,
and so I think that's very helpful as far

as, like, not on your phone and scrolling.

You know, you, you just have
to really quiet and be, and

be peaceful in this place.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah, that's hard to find.

Yeah,

Mary Lattimore: Mm-hmm.

Timothy Iseler: What's something you think
you do well in your personal finances?

Mary Lattimore: I don't think
I do anything well really

in my personal finances.

I'm really, I'm really
pretty bad about it.

But I will say I have a lot of airline
miles, and I am executive platinum on,

on American Airlines, and I feel like
that's brought, you know, benefits.

I don't know.

As far as my...

I, one thing that I've done recently is
to get a business manager, and she has

been a game changer as far as helping me.

That's one thing I feel like I'm
doing well, is like really entrusting

her with all of the stuff that
I felt overwhelmed with before.

As far as taxes, you know, helping
me, like, get everything together

for the tax lady, the accountant.

And she has set me up with LLCs.

there's an LLC for this c- for
this house with my friend Jack.

and then there's an LLC for my business.

And she's kinda helped me, um,
by giving me a payroll, paying

myself, S corp, that kind of stuff.

But I feel like finding someone that you
trust like that, if you're a spacey brain

person like I am, I think it's very,
very cool to have a, to be on a team

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Mary Lattimore: someone like that.

Timothy Iseler: How did you
know it was time for that?

Mary Lattimore: I just
felt very out of control

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Mary Lattimore: with like figuring out

Timothy Iseler: taxes

Mary Lattimore: and also with, you
know, when you make records and you

get statements, the statements that I
was getting from the label were very

long, many, many, many pages, and, um,
very difficult for me to understand

where the money was coming and going.

And so I knew that I had heard that
Jackie, my business manager, had helped

some other people the same label kind of
translate their statements, and to find,

like, money stuff in those statements.

And so I got in touch with her
and I'm like, "I would love

to start working with you."

And, um, and she has really,
really helped me out.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Do you have other people on your team?

Mary Lattimore: Right now I have agent in
the United States, booking agent in Europe

and the UK, booking agent in Australia.

I have agent for film scoring.

Timothy Iseler: Oh.

Mary Lattimore: Yeah,

Timothy Iseler: do you
do a lot of film scores?

Mary Lattimore: yeah, I've started to.

Mm-hmm.

Timothy Iseler: That's really cool.

How did you find your way into that?

Mary Lattimore: Just living here
in LA, I, I feel like I have a lot

of friends who make, films, and
then also, are just in that world.

I mean, I, I've done mostly documentary
scores and it, some of them have come

through friends who are filmmakers,
and some of them have come from

just people who've listened to my
music and have gotten in touch.

But I feel like living here, it's
just so, such a part of the ecosystem.

and having a scoring agent helps to
really, like, negotiate and to help me

make plans about schedule and stuff.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

I know a few people who,
who do soundtrack work,

Mary Lattimore: Hmm.

Timothy Iseler: in one way it seems
awesome, and in another way it, it--

I know it's extremely competitive.

How much do you seek that work, and
how much does that work seek you?

Mary Lattimore: I think
it's always sought me.

I guess, you know, harp, harp composing
isn't that common, so I'm pretty lucky

to play a weird instrument that people,
people are like, "Oh, that would be

an unusual instrument for the score."

My difficulty comes when I have
big tours and, and the film is

in the middle of being finished.

You know, the scheduling is the hard part
me, but it's worked so far, um, with,

know, the f- the director, the people
making the film understanding that.

So,

Timothy Iseler: Mm-hmm.

Mary Lattimore: yeah.

Timothy Iseler: When you, when you
are touring and you have to deal with

something like that, are you ever able
to, like, record in a hotel room or is it

always like you have to book studio time?

Mary Lattimore: Yeah, I
can record in the hotel.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Mary Lattimore: go to the venue
early and, or early the next

morning record some stuff.

but usually, you know, if I'm on tour,
on my own with my own harp, that's easier

to do it in the hotel, but sometimes
I'm doing fly-ins where the harp is

rented just for that night, you know?

So that's a little bit trickier.

I also, you know, play other
instruments on the scores too, like

synthesizer sounds and, like, you
know, keyboard-based instruments.

And so that's a little bit easier
with, like, keyboard to do in the

hotel room with the headphones
on, like, after the show.

Timothy Iseler: That's interesting.

I know different, uh, you know,
again, like air quotes, "classical

musicians" who, like, their instrument
is, it's like a, an appendage.

Like, they don't do anything
without that instrument.

But you are able to use different harps.

Is there, like, a specific make
and model where you're like, "I

need this one," or is it just sort
of full range harp is what I need?

Mary Lattimore: Yeah,
concert grand or semi-grand.

Um, 46 or 47 strings is what I need.

And otherwise, you know, it's...

I'm pretty flexible 'cause
I've been doing it a long time.

Um, I can play any, any brand.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Mary Lattimore: Yeah.

Timothy Iseler: What, what's the extra
string if it's one's 46 and one's 47?

Is it an extra low string,
an extra high string?

Mary Lattimore: Extra low.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Mary Lattimore: And it's
a little bit taller.

I'm a tall person, so the,
the concert grand with the 47

strings is, like, my ideal.

Timothy Iseler: Cool.

Mary Lattimore: Yeah.

Timothy Iseler: You may have
already answered this, but what's,

what would you say is the best
financial decision you've ever made?

Mary Lattimore: Hmm.

I mean, I, yeah, hiring
Jackie to help me out.

Hmm.

Uh, I had a little savings for a while,
but then I put it into this house.

I think probably having this house,
um, hopefully it is increasing

in value the more we put into it.

We, um, I was working
on it with my boyfriend.

He, he is, he's helping me
kind of renovate it by little.

And we were getting ready to paint the
living room, and we were scraping the old

paint off just to make a flat surface.

And then he was working on the ceiling.

The ceiling's kind of scalloped.

a house from 1910.

And he was scraping, and he
discovered, um, that there

were stencils on the ceiling.

And then I was scraping the wall,
and I discovered that there were,

was, like, not a fresco, but, like,
a hand-painted lines and flow-

flower stamps and stuff on the wall.

And so we just, we started scraping
it and scraping it, and made it

kind of, like, rustically beautiful.

The old wall started to come through.

we, so we have one wall that's like the
very old 1910 hand-painted wall, and

the whole ceiling- and then the other
three walls are painted a beautiful

peach color, and I just feel like...

I started crying because I was like, "This
is my dream come true, is to like have

a, a living room that looks like this."

Like the old elegant, poetic architecture
and paint in with like, you know,

the beautiful fresh peach color.

I'm like, "This is actually...

Like, this would- could be in a magazine."

It's so beautiful.

And so I think the more beautiful we make
this apartment, and more like, uh, more

full of character but also, easy to be in
and comfortable, I think that that is on-

it's only gonna increase in value, I hope.

Timothy Iseler: Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Well, at least it will
increase in value for you.

Mary Lattimore: I know.

Yeah.

Timothy Iseler: That's wonderful.

How-- I mean, this might be l- kind of
a trite question, but how does it feel

to be in a position where something
like this is even real for you?

Mary Lattimore: It feels insane.

I think, uh, it was an out-of-body
experience actually saying yes and going

and signing the paperwork and stuff.

I don't know how I, I did it.

You know, I sit here in my rental that I
adore, and I'm like, "Wow, how did I power

through all this bureaucracy and language
barrier and stuff and actually do this?"

It doesn't feel like...

It doesn't feel real, know?

But it feels like something inside
of me m- gathered together this, this

courage and this, like, determination
to buy something a- in another country.

I'm like, "Wow, thanks.

Mary of 2025."

Timothy Iseler: That's great.

Probably also Mary of 2014 2014.

. Mary Lattimore: I know.

Or little Mary, little child Mary, you
know, just dreaming of a bigger world.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

That's pretty remarkable.

Was there-- Well, so your mom
was a professional musician.

Mary Lattimore: Mm-hmm.

Timothy Iseler: Did you know anyone
who was, wanna say a musician in

the way that you are, but just,
like, getting out there, traveling?

Uh, it's, it's, it's a big risk
to say, like, "I'm not just gonna

go play music in other cities, but
I am going to be the one that the

whole thing is based on," you know?

Mary Lattimore: Yeah.

That, that was a gradual, that was
a gradual thing for me, at least.

I mean, I played in bands.

I still do a lot of
collaborations, you know.

But to be the person
where every s- you know...

For a long time I had a great
manager, and just to think about

like, wow, I have people that work,
are hired to help me thing, you know?

It's pretty crazy to think about.

My mom still a professional musician,
and she, she traveled a lot when I was

a kid around North Carolina and South
Carolina, Tennessee, close places, but

she was gone a lot, like, on the weekends
playing weddings and playing events.

And I think having that as a role
model, like seeing, her together with

her harp, putting on her makeup, you
know, going out there to make money

from playing her instrument, um, by
herself, was very inspiration- Like,

it showed me that it could be done.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Mary Lattimore: to me, actually.

It felt, like, kinda glamorous and normal.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah, yeah.

If you could magically, uh, you know,
snap your fingers and change one thing in

your financial life, what would that be?

Mary Lattimore: Mm, I would say I wish
I was better at saving, I guess, right?

You know, in this freelance if...

Like, life, it really comes and goes,

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Mary Lattimore: And I, I count
on there being more in the

future, more work in the future.

I saw that in the pandemic,
that could be all taken away in

a se- in an instant, you know?

Because my job, like, gathering people
together to listen to mus- listen

to me play a harp in, you know, f-

250 to 400-person venue was not
healthy for people in 2020 or

2021, and all the work was gone.

and together with the work, it's
also your identity, you know?

It's like if you make your life doing
this and it's so close to your heart

and the connection that you feel from
pe- with people, um, you get so, so

used to this being your identity,
and then you, you have kind of...

kind of a crisis where I was
like, "What, what do I do now?"

Or, "Who am I?"

You know, "What is this?"

Like, how do I, uh, move forward
not being an essential worker,

not being, being afraid to go
outside or, or to be with people.

And so, you know, just knowing that,
that it could be taken away in, in

a second, I mean, protect these...

I have to protect these hands.

I do not physical risks.

Timothy Iseler: Oh, yeah.

Mary Lattimore: never do.

No, because I have to have these hands
in order to play, in order to live.

So, yeah, I guess, like, having
some savings would, would

be something that I would...

And not just, like, indulging
in, like, treats after the tour,

you know, instead of saving.

I think that that, would
be what I would change

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Mary Lattimore: And I can change it.

I think working with Jackie, that
is a step in the, the direction of

thinking about saving money, you know?

And my mom, um, she's still a very pretty
healthy person, but you know, seeing her

aches and pains, she had to get a new hip.

and so did my dad from, both
from moving the harp for decades.

The same hip, they both had to get a hip
replacement surgery and, and I feel like

that is something that I have to think
about too is, like, the breakdown of the

body carrying this 85-pound thing around.

Timothy Iseler: yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's hard.

It's, I don't need to speculate
about how old you are, but I'm of an

age where, like, those things start
happening and you're like, "Oh, this

is gonna be with me forever," you

Mary Lattimore: Yeah.

Wah, I know, I'm 45.

I definitely feel it,
like, all in my bones.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Yeah, I just, uh, just this year I had to
give up and start wearing reading glasses.

I was like, "I, I can't do it anymore."

Mary Lattimore: The readers.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Mary Lattimore: yeah.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah, and then, you
know, it's-- I don't mind, I, I like

wearing glasses, but it's like just
one of those things where you're like,

"This is never gonna get better."

Mary Lattimore: I

Timothy Iseler: It's not like, uh,
it's not like I have my arm in a sling

and in a few weeks I can take it out.

It's like, "Oh, this only goes one way."

Mary Lattimore: Oh, man,

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Mary Lattimore: is depressing.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

I mean, it's not bad, but yeah,
like you said, if you've been...

Well, and I used to be a roadie,
so I used to carry a lot of heavy,

heavy gear around and so far that
part of my life has been pretty good.

But yeah, once you, once you
get bad knees and a bad back,

it doesn't go the other way.

Mary Lattimore: No, it makes
me wanna do a bunch of yoga,

Timothy Iseler: There you go.

Mary Lattimore: Flexible.

Timothy Iseler: maybe, that'll
lead into this next question.

What's something you love
to do that's cheap or free?

Mary Lattimore: Oh.

I mean, I guess just going for
long walks with my headphones on.

I really love it.

I love, like, walking to the movie
theater, which is a mile and a half away.

I love, yeah, walking around the lake.

I have a membership to the Huntington
Gardens here, so that's really

fun to use that membership and
to just be in nature, you know?

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

It is nice, like, for as, like all
the urban cliches about LA are true,

but then also you can find yourself
still in the city but in these

totally beautiful places where you
feel like you're not there anymore.

Mary Lattimore: Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

That's really great.

Well, Mary, this stuff we've just been
talking about, we're about to talk

about it a little more 'cause I ask
everyone to send me a question so that

I can hopefully deliver some value to
the person I'm speaking with, and your

question is, was, uh, relates very much
to what we were just talking about.

Your question was, "What's your advice
for someone whose money ebbs and

flows and who is bad about saving?"

So ver-very mu- very much what
we were just talking about.

I wanna tackle that in
two different parts.

The first part, the, the money ebbs
and flows, I think maybe working

with your business manager is gonna
help you with some of those things.

But just, I would say in general
for everyone, whether the person's

a creative or a small business
owner, you just, you don't know,

"What am I gonna make this month?",

You can't plan a traditional budget the
way that most people would do, where they

say, "I'm gonna make this much money,
therefore here's where it all goes."

You kind of have to do the reverse
way and say, "How much do I need to

spend And, therefore, you know, how
much money do I need coming in?"

The same way like if you were going to
book a tour, you'd want to say like,

okay, it's this many hotel rooms, it's
this many flights, you know, I can't

do it for less than this much money
because then it doesn't make any sense.

So if, in your personal life, if
you could just have a pretty okay

handle on how much you spend in an
average month, that's really helpful.

For some people, that's a budget,
but I think it doesn't even

have to be that complicated.

If you just take your bank account
statement from like the last three months

and look at the money that goes out, which
is usually at the top of the statement,

just add it up and divide by three and
you'll say, oh, I spend about this much.

Therefore, you know, I need
to make about this much.

And one thing that this is, I've
lived this experience, but it's

also, it's just good advice, is
tethering your bank accounts to

whatever that monthly number is.

So like if you know your monthly
amount that you have to spend and

you look at your checking account
and you have less than that, you

know like, uh-oh, I got to cut back.

Mary Lattimore: Mm-hmm.

Timothy Iseler: Or if you have
five times that much, you're like,

oh, maybe I kind of have more than
I need in my checking account.

And then that can trickle through
to a savings account where I

think everyone everywhere should
maintain a savings cushion.

For people with normal, predictable
jobs, like three months worth

of expenses is a good target.

But for people with unpredictable
jobs, you should aim for more.

Six months is a good idea.

Some people are very cautious
and they aim for 12 months.

Okay, so that's the ebb and flow part.

And now let's look at
the bad at savings part.

So I think there are a lot
of parallels between physical

fitness and financial health.

And one of the big ones that applies
to both is you can't assume that your

willpower or rational thinking is going
to help when you don't want it to.

You know, so if you love cupcakes
and you have cupcakes in your house,

like your willpower is going to fail.

It will not win.

So it's like, okay, don't
keep cupcakes in the house.

You know, problem solved, right?

And it's kind of that
way too with your money.

Like we like to think that,
you know, we will make the good

decisions at the good times.

But everybody likes, like you
said, you get home from tour

and you're like, I need a treat.

I'm going to buy myself some records.

I'm going to buy myself,
go out to a nice dinner.

Mary Lattimore: Mm-hmm.

Timothy Iseler: And all that stuff is fun.

But the flip side of it then is then
you run out of all of your money.

So in terms of taking the willpower
out of it and taking the "I'll always

be a rational operator" out of it.

I think automation can help a lot.

so if you had to transfer from just an
easy one, a transfer from your checking

account to your savings account, and
even at a really, really small level

where you don't have to stress about
it, like 100 bucks a month, 100 bucks

a week, whatever feels okay to you,
you know, it, it's not gonna like,

it's not gonna look like that much at
first, but after a while you'll realize

like, "Wow, I've been doing all of this
really great stuff and it's, it hasn't

even felt like work at all because it's
just been happening in the background."

so I call that your invisible number.

Whatever number could just move out of
your checking account and you wouldn't

notice it, that's a great thing to do.

And if w- as often as you can make
that happen tends to be better.

Some banks let you do a daily transfer.

not many of them, but some do.

But you know, if you could do
whatever, 20 bucks a week, awesome.

Just you won't even notice it.

You won't, you won't say
like, "Where'd that $20 go?"

It'll just

Mary Lattimore: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Mm.

Timothy Iseler: be helping you.

Mary Lattimore: Wow.

Well.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Timothy Iseler: And then another thing
that I like in addition to automation is

to set a few simple rules that, again,
doesn't require you to be like the calm,

cool, rational person at all times.

It's just like really simple.

You can take one look and
be like, "Can I afford this?

Can I not afford this?"

And so what I like to do
is put a, a target maximum

amount on my checking account.

This is something I learned when I was a
roadie, and you come home from tour and

you've got all that money, is-- A- and
this is why it's also important to know

how much you need to spend-- I think if
you set your checking account target at

twice what you spend in a month, that
means this month is covered and a lot of

things can go wrong, and I'm totally cool.

But then everything above that, just
shove it into your savings account,

Mary Lattimore: Wow, okay.

Mm-hmm.

Timothy Iseler: So I'm
just gonna make it up.

If that number's $10,000 and you
come home from tour and you've got

15, just take the extra five, shove
it into your savings account, and

then you're like, "Cool, I'm covered.

I don't even have to worry
about anything right now."

Does that make sense?

Mary Lattimore: So smart, yeah.

Uh-huh.

Timothy Iseler: Cool.

Do you have any questions
based on what I just said?

Mary Lattimore: Mm, I just have to figure
out how to do that on my, in my bank a-

my banking app or whatever, but that's,
that's a very, very helpful advice.

I appreciate it.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Yeah, no problem.

I'm sure your, your business manager
could help you with that too.

Mary Lattimore: I'll tell her that.

Yeah, I'll, I'm gonna pass this on to her.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

And then you mentioned that
you operate as an S corp.

There may be opportunities also, and
maybe this is going too deep, but to kind

of do the same thing but with, like, a
retirement account through the business

where the, you know, the business...

It's a business-sponsored account, but
you happen to be both the business owner

and the employee, and to do a similar
thing where it's, like, a little bit

of money coming out of that salary
every month or every other week, or

however often you pay yourself, and
just, you know, it doesn't have to

be an-- a lot, but just a little bit.

And if you take the decision-making
out of it, if you take the willpower

out of it, it can make it really easy.

Mary Lattimore: Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

I'm gonna talk to her about this.

That's, yeah, that's great, a great idea
because these hands can't play forever.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Awesome.

Well, thank you so much, Mary.

I really appreciate it.

Mary Lattimore: lot.

It was a fun chat.

yeah, nice to meet you.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Nice to meet you too.

Bye.

Bye.

Mary Lattimore: bye.

Timothy Iseler: Thank you to
Mary for speaking with me today.

I had seen her perform before, but
this was our first real conversation,

and I genuinely learned a lot
about her background and career.

What stood out to me was how
thoughtfully she talked about

money for someone who describes
herself as bad at personal finance.

She understands exactly where the
gaps are and has already started

taking real steps to address them.

It was a pleasure to speak with Mary, and
I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did.

Again, you can find her on Instagram
@marylattimore, that's M-A-R-Y

L-A-T-T-I-M-O-R-E, and visit
her website marylattimore.net

for upcoming shows.

That's it for today.

I will be back next week to
talk about what to do when your

bank account stops making sense.

One thing I have noticed in my own
life and in the lives of many people

with whom I work, is that it can
be really straightforward to manage

financial decisions when there's
not that much money coming in.

But as your career grows and the
money gets bigger, all of a sudden

managing your personal finances
isn't just a matter of looking at

the number in your bank account.

We're gonna talk about some of the
key factors in successfully navigating

that transition in next week's show.

I will see you back here then.

The thing we never talk
about is for educational and

entertainment purposes only.

It's not legal investment or tax advice.

People on the show, including myself,
may have interests for or against

any investments discussed, so do
yourself a favor and don't ever make

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