Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Welcome to the Revenue Rebels podcast, hosted by Alan Zhao, Co-Founder of Warmly.ai.
We feature B2B SaaS revenue leaders who have challenged traditional methods to achieve remarkable results.
In each episode we cut through the fluff and dive deep into modern tactics used to achieve success: intent-based outreach, social selling, B2B Netflix, video marketing, warm calling, customer led sales, influencer marketing and more.
On the show you can expect episodes with those who create demand - marketing experts, partnerships gurus and social media superstars and those who capture demand - outbound and inbound sales experts, leaders, and practitioners.
Our goal is to shine a light on modern, effective and unique revenue generating methods and equip you with the insights you need to unlock your next strategic advantage.
We're huge proponents of signal-based selling and signal-based, data-driven B2B go-to-market as a whole. Ask us what "Autonomous Revenue Orchestration" means and we'll be more than happy to shine a light on our vision of what the field of B2B revenue will become.
For more content, check out our YouTube page and LinkedIn newsletter!
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: [00:00:00] Once the visitor starts interacting, you can follow that anonymous visitor, whether that visitor came from G2 or from, uh, from another interaction. You can follow that visitor through of all the interactions that visitor is doing on your, on your, on your website. And then at some point, the visitor does a form fill or the visitor might even like go out of your website and then come back after interacting with the trade show or at a partner event, and then come back.
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: To your, to your website and at some point they give you that information, whether that's a form fill or an alternative mechanism. So we are able to tell our customers your best buyers and your best visitors, your most, the higher, your highest converting accounts and your highest converting industries and regions.
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: Where did this start? Did this start through Google by looking at a Google impression? Did they start through LinkedIn, through Meta, did they go to a third party website or were you running an ABM campaign that kind of attracted these accounts into your funnel or did they see some podcasts, [00:01:00] et cetera, how much ever we can kind of capture, they're able to see that.
Alan Zhao: Welcome to the Revenue Rebels podcast brought to you by Warmly. On this show, we cut straight through the fluff and dive deep into the specific tactics that B2B revenue leaders across sales and marketing are using to find success in today's environment. I'm your host, Alan Zhao. All
Alan Zhao: right. So I'm here with Deepinder Singh Dhingra, who is the CEO of RevSure, a full funnel intelligence attribution software solution, and He's had over two decades of experience in building and scaling data and AI based SaaS businesses. And today we're going to be talking about the Deep Funnel and how marketers can shine a light on it and improve conversions at every stage.
Alan Zhao: Deepinder, welcome. Thanks, Alan. Great to be here. Let's get into a quick background about yourself and we'll jump into the topics.
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: Yeah. So, you know, my background has spent about 20 years in big data analytics, AI and machine learning [00:02:00] across multiple industries. In fact, most of my career is spent in Fortune 500, working across both B2B and B2C organizations, doing analytics around marketing, supply chain, cross sell, up sell, customer analytics.
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: And about a couple of years back, I got very excited about what's happening in the B2B SaaS world, especially as B2B is going through this consumerization of the GTM motion. And this whole end to end revenue funnel that is becoming increasingly complex across marketing, the SDR, VDR motion and the sales motion with multiple systems, a lot of inefficiencies.
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: And that's the kind of problems I'd like to solve. And that's what's, that's what got me started with RefShare. ai.
Alan Zhao: And what is the exact problem that you ran into that you felt the most pain about?
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: Yeah. So what we discovered is there's marketing teams. I'm not able to understand how their buyers are really interacting with them across the different channels [00:03:00] across different forums assets interactions.
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: So, what we do is we integrate all of the data that customers are interacting with the visitors leads, whether, you know, when they started as an anonymous visitor. And then they went through a form fill and beyond. We integrate all of the data across not just the marketing motion and the website, but across the marketing motion, the SDR, BDR motion, the sales motion, the partner motion, all interactions across digital.
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: Non digital, so let's say if a visitor came to your website, uh, after seeing a LinkedIn ad or interacting with a Google ad, or after looking at, you know, interacting with the LinkedIn posts, or after going through a 3rd party, let's say G2, you're able to track each interaction from the top of the funnel.
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: Uh, which used to be called the dark funnel. Now, we can't capture all interactions, but today the dark funnel is not that dark like you yourself are able to identify anonymous visitors. Um, and that's [00:04:00] also what we do. We are able to identify the anonymous visitor journey from the top of the funnel into the deep funnel as these visitors move beyond and start interacting in your website with your content, with your webinars, with your white papers.
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: But also they might go into a trade show or a conference to further interactions. They might then interact with your SDR, BDR team, and then with your sales team. So we track the visitor journey from the dark funnel to into the deep funnel and how they're moving stage to stage in your funnel from visitor to lead.
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: To MQL, to pipeline and close one business from a funnel perspective. Or if you have an account based motion from target awareness decision, the different account stages you might have in your, in your account funnel. Uh, but also across the buyer journey, like what, what stages is the buyer in, is the buyer in a research phase, awareness, consideration.
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: So we track those end to end journeys and then we help our customers really identify [00:05:00] What are the most important touches and the most, uh, most important interactions that really convert visitors into business. Got it.
Alan Zhao: And so now that you've mapped out the entire funnel, the B2B buyer journey from the beginning, you talked about how you guys even track G2 intent all the way to form fill to conversion and mapping it all the way through.
Alan Zhao: How granular can you get into exactly? You know, who the person is or who the company is.
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: So, obviously, we can get into, you know, in the early stages, you would, you know, you could, you probably when the visitor comes anonymous, you know, you can use a visitor, the anonymization technology, such as warmly to identify what are the accounts that are visiting.
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: Once the visitor starts interacting, you can follow that anonymous visitor, whether that visitor came from G two or from, uh, from another interaction. You can follow that visitor through of all the interactions that visitor is doing on your, on your, on your website. And then at some point the visitor does a form [00:06:00] fill or the visitor might even like go out of your website and then.
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: Come back after interacting with the trade show or at a partner event and then come back to your, to your website. And at some point they give you that information, whether that's a form fill or an alternative mechanism. And then you then back connect all of these interactions, page visits and website downloads and, uh, white paper downloads and webinar views, et cetera.
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: And then as these leads now progress through your funnel, whether they become a marketing qualified lead and they become a sales qualified lead, then we also follow the interactions into the SGR channel. What calls, emails are they interacting with? Do they respond? Do they not respond? And then how the interaction with the sales team is going if they become a qualified opportunity.
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: So we are very, very granular. We capture all interactions across your marketing automation system, the CRM system, your website. The sales automation systems like outreach, sales loft, the ABM platforms that you might be running. For example, 6th sense [00:07:00] demand base, um, the LinkedIn, Google impressions, meta, meta interactions, all of these interactions we bring together at the most granular level at the lead opportunity and account level.
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: How do you guys do
Alan Zhao: that? So how do you pull in? All these disparate systems and then mash them together in a way that makes sense, especially when the CRM is so customizable and bespoke for a lot of different companies.
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: Yeah. So that's essentially our secret sauce. So that's where my experience, you know, spent in spending 20 years and fortune 500 and doing big data analytics.
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: And what, so what we do is we have a technology that integrates this data and auto harmonizes that data and makes all of these associates. So think about a graph metaphor. So we build the GTM data graph. For each of our customers that we, uh, that we, that we deploy for, so it integrates that auto harmonizes the data.
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: It takes into account. It takes care of a lot of the problems, whether you [00:08:00] have custom objects, you have custom attributes, you have your only life cycles, your own account life cycles, your own pipeline stages. So, it's actually we configure to the customer's environment, and then we're able to make those connections.
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: So that's what we do. And that's essentially a key aspect of our technology. If
Alan Zhao: you're a fan of the revenue rebels podcast, please leave us a review on Spotify and Apple podcast. Your support goes a long way to helping us bring on more amazing guests. Thank you. And then what's, what is the final visualization look like?
Alan Zhao: For the end user.
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: Right. To the end user. Uh, let's say you have a marketing team, demand generation, CMO, marketing ops, uh, teams. There are a few things they can do. The first thing, because we are a full funnel attribution intelligence solution, they can get an end to end view. And, and, and, and in many cases for the first time, they get an end to end view of two things, the entire funnel across the marketing motion, [00:09:00] the SDR, BDR motion.
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: And the sales motion, and there might be partner motion and other, uh, motions as well, whether you have a lead based motion, you have an account based motion or a PLG motion, we are able to adapt to hybrid motions within the customer's environment. So, for the very first time, they see the end to end funnel.
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: And then they're able to start seeing what is driving and where are the bottlenecks across volume, value, velocity, and conversions. Because we've mapped each of the individual interactions, all the leads, visitors that are going through the funnel. So they're able to see that. So they're able to very quickly see where the bottlenecks are, where the slowdowns are.
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: The second thing they're able to do is also map, because the funnel is your funnel, which is represented of your GTA motion. It's not the buyer's journey necessarily. So yes, we map the full funnel. But we also map each buyer's journey. So imagine a Sankey chart that helps you track the top buyer journeys that are happening.
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: So for example, one of our customers was very interested in understanding [00:10:00] where are my best converting visitors coming from? Which channels are they coming from? Now, if you were to look at Google analytics, it'll tell you, Hey, your visitors are coming from LinkedIn or Google or various channels, social organic, social, but doesn't really tell you which are the visitors that are converting to pipeline and revenue.
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: Where did they come from? Right? Because it doesn't connect the end to end funnel from the, from the top of the funnel into the deep funnel into pipeline and. Revenue stages are closed on business. So we are able to tell our customers, your best buyers and your best visitors, your most, the higher, your highest converting accounts and your highest converting industries and regions.
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: Where did this start? Did this start through Google? By looking at a Google impression, did they start, uh, through LinkedIn, through Meta, did they go to a third party website, or were you running an ABM campaign that kind of attracted these accounts into your funnel, or did they see some podcasts, et cetera, [00:11:00] how much ever we can kind of capture, they're able to see that.
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: Then what they're able to see, they're able to, that's for historically what has happened. They're able to see in real time where the buyers are in their journey. Are they in the research stage? Right. So they came to your website, they looked at some content, some blog, and then they went away. Right. So clearly that visitor, um, or that account is more in the research or maybe awareness, or they might be in the awareness stage.
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: Right. Now, if they're coming back after having interacted, let's say, with a couple more offline interactions, let's say a trade show event, or you just went to the Adobe summit. Or to another retreat, and then you came back, then, you know, that has an indicator of higher interest and we kind of triangulate.
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: We are not an ABM tool, but we are not trying to classify buyers into different stages and do that, but we're able to triangulate signals from multiple places and give a better prediction. And an estimation of where the buyer is in their journey and what's their propensity [00:12:00] to convert into pipeline and close one business.
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: So then our AI models rank each lead, each visitor, each account based on their propensity to pipeline. A by product of that is that for marketing teams, not only can they see these individual bio journeys, the most important touches, they can understand what channels industry regions are converting better for them, but they're also able to attribute better.
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: A lot of marketing teams today are stuck with attribution, like first touch, last touch, even multi touch, but they don't have all the interactions mapped out. Right. And they rely on a lot of interactions, whether that's in Salesforce. So you might do a form fill and the lead source will say form fill and form fill is the first step.
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: But very often form fill is not the first step. Form fill is just the conversion event for the form fill, right? The first touch might've started way earlier. You know, your visitor came through a Google ad. And that would be the true first touch. So we're able to capture the true first [00:13:00] touches as well as all intermediate touches in that journey from the top of the funnel into the deep funnel.
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: Right? And what we like to say, the dark funnel is not that dark anymore. You are able to control and you're able to shine a light. On a lot of those dark funnel events today that you could not do earlier. Obviously it's never perfect, but the, uh, but the boundary is actually the frontier is increasing. So you can actually capture more and more interactions.
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: And then you get the true attribution of your marketing efforts, the campaigns and the tactics, you know, which ones to double down on, because you know what tactics drove signups as well as what tactics drove pipeline and revenue behavior, because you know, the interactions that drove that.
Alan Zhao: That's very interesting.
Alan Zhao: One of the biggest problems that we have on marketing ourselves is Where do we double down on?
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: Exactly.
Alan Zhao: Yeah. And, uh, where to double down on is tough because if you have no visibility into where leads are coming from and their [00:14:00] natural journey through the pipeline, I mean, oftentimes in our CRM, uh, we do a lot of marketing initiatives and it drives a lot of pipeline, but it could just be 90 percent of it coming from one channel.
Alan Zhao: And some people like ourselves may not know. What are some of the hardest problems that you guys need that remain unsolved one that I could think of would be, um, the people, the person that clicked on the Google ad might have already had a backdoor conversation with an influencer back channeling a tool.
Alan Zhao: How do you guys solve that?
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: No, there's certain things we can't solve for. So there's like a mobile, you know, mobile discussion, but in an influencer. And, uh, and one of the visitors, unless the influencer, we have a way to capture that. And nowadays, if it, if it was a channel that, you know, you could instrument, right, that can definitely happen, whether that, you know, you interacted with an influencer on LinkedIn, or you clicked on an influencer post, et cetera.
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: So those things can be captured. But if it was just a [00:15:00] verbal offline discussion, so that cannot be captured. So there's always a limitation to that. But what we find is that Um, you can actually account for influencer interactions in a different way. Um, right. You might not be able to map that influencer interaction directly to a particular visitor unless you've, you've instrumented that, you know, and there's a particular engagement that's happening.
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: Influencer interactions usually happen, uh, for example, through understanding. Impressions and to understanding who attended, let's say, an influencer webinar, etc. And that's more around marketing mix kind of behavior that you could also use. But traceability of the interactions is number one for most of the teams that we work with, right?
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: Because they want to be able to trace the interactions in the timeline of those interactions.
Alan Zhao: That
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: makes
Alan Zhao: sense. Who's your ICP?
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: Our ICP currently is mid market. B2B SaaS companies and B2B tech companies anywhere [00:16:00] greater than 10 going up to 500 million of ARR, especially ones where top of the funnel activities are very important in terms of driving pipeline and revenue for current and next quarter.
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: So, there's a level of sensitivity of what you're doing in the top of the funnel. Right and how that will eventually turn into pipeline and revenue, not necessarily in in 12 to 18 months, but things that are turning into pipeline and revenue in this quarter next quarter next next quarter. So you need to be able to optimize your top of the funnel.
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: That's the 1st thing. And. You're generating a volume, you're spending in paid marketing. You have a mix of a marketing demand, uh, marketing demand in motion with an SDR BDR team, plus a sales motion. So you have disparate interactions and you need to be able to bring them all together to really understand what's working and what's not working.
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: So that's, those are some characteristics of our ICP.
Alan Zhao: How about customer stories and ROI?
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: Yeah, [00:17:00] so there, you know, there are 2 3 layers of customer stories. So we were working with, you know, the CMO and the Marketing Ops and Demand Gen team of a, um, of a Dev Automation company and a QAutomation company. And one of their key aspects was, Uh, they're launching new products and signups, um, and they're trying to attract visitors and signups for that within their ICP, obviously, they were not able to figure out what was really driving those visitors and signups.
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: To, uh, uh, you know, and what channels top of the funnel channels are really driving that because all their CRM and their marketing automation system was capturing was really the, uh, was, was just really the, uh, the lead source. Right. Even if you go original source, you really don't get, uh, get the most, you don't get the true first touch.
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: So for them, the first aha moment, right. It starts with an aha moment and then it goes into ROI. The first hour [00:18:00] moment was, was figuring out which campaigns. Across different channels that they're running from LinkedIn to meta to Google, we're really impacting and getting them the best visitor that drove signups.
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: The 2nd, the 2nd ROI story was really about how these visitors then flow into the deep funnel, what interactions, content, white paper, webinars, assets. Uh, are helping them get to the next stage of their decisioning process and their buying cycle. And then what combination of interactions with the SDR teams in terms of calls and emails and with the sales motion and how that drives conversion.
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: So from an ROI perspective is all about not only identifying what campaigns to double down on, what tactics to double down on, improving the ROI of those campaigns by at least about 20 percent and then improving conversions. Right? Because that's how, you know, you get better otherwise. So for us, we were able to help them improve about conversions from lead to opportunity by about 10%, [00:19:00] which is a huge deal for that.
Alan Zhao: I think this is one of the biggest lifts in marketing because for someone to pull this data together, it would take an eternity and they probably wouldn't get it right in the first place. But to be able to see at which points leads are getting stuck, which points they're moving forward and then to attach with the right sales motion or the right marketing, the right Follow up with content.
Alan Zhao: That's a, it's extremely valuable. Very interesting stuff. Deepender, thank you so much for your time. How can people find out more about you?
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: Yeah. So they can, you know, go to our website, uh, at gdpsrefshow. ai I'm on LinkedIn, um, and my email, uh, which we can provide as part of this, uh, as far as part of the session, they can contact me directly, deependeratrefshow.
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: ai.
Alan Zhao: Awesome. Thanks so
Deepinder Singh Dhingra: much, Mike. Great. Thank you. Thanks, [00:20:00] Alan.