Stronger, Happier, Healthier: Awesome After 40 with Darren Ellis and Cliff Harvey

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This week on the podcast Mikki brings back Dr Cliff Harvey and Darren Ellis to talk about their latest book (and first joint collaboration) Awesome after Forty. We talk about the inception of the book, their current thoughts on all things strength training, fitness, nutrition, health, sleep, fasting and give teasers as to what you will be able to find in the book. This is going to be a must-have for almost everybody to have on their shelves and to dive in on any given topic. It’s practical, applicable and readable but they haven’t dumbed things down. Would be a perfect gift.

Cliff Harvey, PhD, is New Zealand’s expert on the effects of a ketogenic diet in a healthy population, but so much more than that. He has been  helping people to live healthier, happier lives, and to perform better since starting in clinical practice (way back...) in the late 1990s. Over this time he has been privileged to work with many Olympic, professional, Commonwealth and other high performing athletes. He has also worked with many people to overcome the effects of chronic and debilitating health conditions. Along the way he has founded or co-founded many successful businesses in the health, fitness and wellness space, including  Holistic Performance Institute, NZ’s leading certification and diploma for health, nutrition, health coaching and performance that has many of the world experts teaching on the course, so students are learning from the best.

 

Cliff has  over 20 years experience as a strength and nutrition coach and, in addition to his PhD research, he is a Registered Clinical Nutritionist, qualified Naturopath (Dip.Nat – NCNZ) and holds a diploma in Fitness Training (AUT) and Health Coaching in Patient Care.

You can find Cliff over at https://cliffharvey.com/

Darren Ellis, MSc, has an aim to share what he’s learned with as many people as possible, teaching them that there are no shortcuts with exercise, but that it can be achievable, and even fun, with good coaching and a supportive peer group. 

He is a regular contributor to a variety of popular print and web based health and fitness magazines, public speaker, and consultant to sporting organisations, businesses, universities and television.

Specialties: Strength training and nutrition for fitness, sport, weight loss, muscle gain, longevity.

Darren can be found at: https://www.darrenellis.coach/ 

Contact Mikki:

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Creators and Guests

Host

Mikki Williden

What is Mikkipedia?

Mikkipedia is an exploration in all things health, well being, fitness, food and nutrition. I sit down with scientists, doctors, professors, practitioners and people who have a wealth of experience and have a conversation that takes a deep dive into their area of expertise. I love translating science into a language that people understand, so while some of the conversations will be pretty in-depth, you will come away with some practical tips that can be instigated into your everyday life. I hope you enjoy the show!

00:00
Hey everyone, it's Mikki here. You're listening to Mikkipedia and this week on the podcast I speak to Dr. Cliff Harvey and Darren Ellis to talk about their latest book and first joint collaboration in this space, Awesome After 40. It is such a great conversation guys. We chat about the inception of the book, their current thoughts on all things strength training, fitness, nutrition, health, sleep.

00:29
fasting, supplements and give teasers as to what you'll be able to find in the book. This is going to be a must have for almost everybody on their shelves to be able to dive in on any given topic. It's practical, applicable and readable, but they haven't dumbed things down. They're so good at translating that science into information that you understand, but also feel like you're learning as well. This would be a perfect gift.

00:56
for anyone you love at Christmas, be it male, female, whether they're already 40, about to turn 40, or they were 40 about 15 years ago. Now I've had Cliff and Darren on the podcast several times. Cliff Harvey, PhD, is New Zealand's expert on the effects of a ketogenic diet in a healthy population, but he is so much more than that. He has been helping people to live healthier, happier lives, and to perform better since starting in clinical practice in the late 1990s.

01:26
Over this time he has been privileged to work with many Olympic professional, Commonwealth and other high performing athletes. He has also worked with many people to overcome the effects of chronic and debilitating health conditions. Along the way he has founded or co-founded many successful businesses in the health, fitness and wellness space, including Holistic Performance Institute, New Zealand's leading certification and diploma for health, nutrition, health coaching and performance that has many of the world's teaching on the course.

01:55
so students are learning from the best. Cliff has over 20 years experience as a strength and nutrition coach. And in addition to his PhD research, he's a registered clinical nutritionist, qualified naturopath, and holds a diploma in fitness training and health coaching and patient care. You can find Cliff over at cliffhavi.com or at Holistic Performance Institute. Darren Ellis, MSc.

02:20
has an aim to share what he's learnt with as many people as possible, teaching them that there are no shortcuts with exercise, can be achievable and even fun with good coaching and a supportive peer group. He is a regular contributor to a variety of popular print and web-based health and fitness magazines. He's a public speaker and consultant to sporting organizations, businesses, universities and television. His specialties are strength training and nutrition for fitness, sport, weight loss,

02:50
muscle gain and longevity and he has a very active social media presence and you can learn a lot from following Darren over on Instagram. He can be found at www.darrinalice.coach and I've got links as to where to find both of these guys over in the show notes and keep an eye out because we are going to be running a giveaway for the Awesome After 40 book so you guys can get your hands on

03:19
a copy for yourselves. Before we crack on into the interview though, would like to remind you that the best way to support this podcast is to hit the subscribe button on your favourite podcast listening platform. That increases the visibility of Micopedia and amongst literally thousands of other podcasts out there. So more people get to hear from experts that I have on the show like Cliff and Dazza. Alright guys, enjoy the conversation.

03:49
I get so many compliments on your behalf for the conversations that we have, all three of us. They just love banter, don't they? Yeah, I think so. And they're also, they like to be a fly on the wall, because I'm the same, I like to be a fly on the wall, for listening to the conversations between people who I follow to see, know, what do they really think? what are the things that they talk about? And of course,

04:17
If they're wondering what you guys really think, well, you've just bought out your book. Yeah. Do we show them our Scientology handshake or keep that secret? Oh, I love it. Hey, so Darren Ellis, Cliff Harvey, welcome. Welcome to Micopedia podcast on this beautiful Friday morning in Auckland. And I'm sure it's beautiful down the line, Daz and Taoronga. Very much so. Yeah. Love it. uh I'm super excited to talk to you guys today about your book.

04:47
I got Chatgypt to whip me up a bunch of questions on it, which is more, it's more, it's less, it's just sort of like big topic questions. I'm like, like these, I'll keep these. But first, I just want to kick off to ask you what possessed you to write a book? Is it just because, I mean, I Cliff, Cliff, you like to write books. You've got multiple books. It's like breathing for Cliff. It's just like breathing. know.

05:16
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so talk me through what made you want to buy a book and I'll just leave it to you as to decide who talks first. Mate, if I could start with how I sort of recall the conversation was, what conversations, right? We have so many of them. Whenever we're together, naturally we start talking about the industry and our own experiences. And as I recall, we were chatting about a book

05:45
by Dan John and Pavel Sapsoulin. And the style of it being that it was two in the trenches, well-respected strength coaches. ah And it was like a conversation. The book was sort of written like it was a conversation between these two giants talking about what works for them and the things that they've discovered and figured out along the journey. and Cliff said,

06:13
It would be cool to write something along those lines. And then he couldn't find anybody else. So he asked me. Yeah, I think it was very much a serendipitous thing because obviously we had that conversation, but you know, I've wanted to do something with Daz for many years, basically since we met. And I don't know when that was exactly, but it must've been around 2011 or so when I came, although I've known of Daz before that, but it must've been when I came back from Canada. But you know, Mickey, you mentioned that I've written other books.

06:43
The reality is that, you know, when, you're writing things, when you're younger, they come from a far more naive place. And it's not to say that they don't have value to maybe someone out there, but you know, I think as well, that if you look back on what you've done, you know, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30 years ago, and you're not a little bit embarrassed about it, you haven't really grown and evolved. And then I look back at some of those early works. were to my mind now, very naive, very immature.

07:13
And like some of them would, weren't that good, like straight up. Right. And I think nowadays it's interesting because a lot of the concepts that come through this book, I think are also emblematic of the books process and particularly where I'm at. Because in the past, I've very much rushed. So rushed to finish a book, rushed to get it out. You know, if there's an era, well, every book I've ever read, I've found an era. And so just put it out anyway.

07:43
And this time around, it was a very different process for me where I wanted to not just do the book justice and feel confident in the book and it's finished form. But I also wanted to do that to appreciate theirs as well and not to have something that gets out there that we couldn't both be very proud of. Um, so I think in reality, out of all the books I've written, I'd probably say three are okay. Two of them are pretty decent.

08:12
And this one, I think is a good book. It's a very good book that I'm very proud of and I'm stoked to have written it with theirs. And I think it will give people a lot of value. I love that. And I love how the genesis of it was based on another piece of work from people that you guys both respect hugely. But also this will be quite a different book because to your point, Cliff, about the naivety of

08:40
what you found in your own writing, because you were young and you don't have that experience and that real world experience speaks to so much. And I think both of you, given your age, I think, I mean, if you don't have experience at this point, it's got to be something seriously wrong with you. Not just based on your age, but you know, like, but a lot of, you know, a lot of our knowledge doesn't just come from the research and the ivory towers and possibly where we might've leaned on that early in our careers because we didn't have the decades of

09:09
understanding how to apply that to people and what happens there, I guess. Yeah, it's the difference between information and wisdom, I guess. It's still a little bit to say oh any kind of why's, but we can get hold of so much info out there. And I'm so impressed with what some of the WizKids are able to do and put out these days. But the truth is, if you don't have the time to sit with and experiment with, then... m

09:35
And try and fail and, and, and suddenly try again with the same thing. Cause you're sure that that's right. And then finally realized begrudgingly that maybe there's something to some other thing. And that's, there's just no getting around the time factor with that. And I think one thing that comes about, and I'm sure this will evolve even more, you know, hopefully 10, 15 years later, we're saying, you know what? We're so much more wise now because no one can claim to be wise. It's a, it's a process, right? But I think when you're younger as well,

10:05
You are more insecure in yourself even if you think that you know who you are you know and now this one my life i don't think you can even know entirely who you are you can just. Just put out what you can in the best way that you can and. Leave it up to people to accept it or not. You know it's kinda like the fall in or fuck off mentality i'm trying to do the best i can if you did get great if you don't that's cool as well. I was when you younger i think a lot of what you putting out there is to try and project a certain.

10:35
position, a certain status that you have. And there comes a point where you realize all of that is fairly arbitrary and it doesn't matter. I love it. So Awesome After 40 is the name of the book and you've got exactly, of which I think we can all attest to being we are all awesome after 40. Are you after 40, Mick?

10:59
Right, cool. I love it, Cliff. I love it. And meanwhile, I'm getting all the comments going, what about 50? I'm like, all right, well, we wrote it. I was in my 40s when we wrote it. It just got published when I was 50. Good things take time, Daz. Absolutely. You're still after 40 though. Exactly. Exactly. Technically, right? Yeah. So time-tested strength, nutrition, and lifestyle techniques to be healthy, happy, and strong after 40. First question is, what can people...

11:29
Who is this for actually? And let's address, it's not an elephant in the room, but you guys are two blokes. And I know that particularly Daz, you work with a lot of perimenopausal menopausal women. And Cliff, know that, I mean, you have a more bespoke clientele maybe with your app and who you work individually with, I'm not sure. But this is not to take away from your experience in that age group as well.

11:59
But are we buying this for our partners, our best guy mates, our husbands, or is it, obviously I'm talking from my perspective here as a woman, or for our besties and giving it away as prizes at Monday's Matter, like who's it for? I I could jump in with little story here because a few years back, as you know, Mick, we talked about it on the podcast before I restarted my online coaching, because I've never stopped.

12:28
practice, but obviously I've had other things on with, you know, research and, and starting the Institute and all those types of things, but I've always kept a stable of clients, but I was typically doing that in a consultation basis. But a couple of years back, I went back to online coaching, which I really enjoy because it's got that consistency of contact with people. really create those relationships with them. It's more like when we used to be, you know, more in the gym, training, you know, and I really dig that.

12:55
But anyway, I thought, well, who's the market for this? And I don't like to overly define a market, but it is important to do obviously when you're starting a new venture and branding and whatnot. So I thought the reality is they're probably going to be people like me. They might be former athletes or they might be people in business. They might be people with kids. They're probably going to be guys who just want to get back and be strong, healthy, functional again, living their best lives kind of thing. And so I just branded it the way that I would dig it with fairly

13:25
masculine type branding. Not that I think of myself as a particularly masculine dude. As you know, I was kicked out of high school for wearing skirts and nail polish and all that kind of stuff. Don't feel like I'm particularly gendered, but I just put it out there in the way that I did. Expecting that my clientele would be guys like me. What happened? Probably 75 % of my clients are women between, say, and 50. Why?

13:50
Because they obviously did what I'm putting out. They like the information. They like the simple approach to strength, simple approaches to nutrition, lifestyle, et cetera. And so I think with this book and know, Daz will give his perspective, but I think we just put it out there from a really pure place. was just chuck it out there, put out what we would like to see. And whoever digs that, digs it.

14:17
Right. And so we've had a few questions, you know, is this geared towards me and is it, you know, appropriate for women? Of course it is. Because as you know, Mickey, you know, in all that work that we've done as well in this area, although sure, you could say that women aren't small men to a large degree, the things that work are the things that work. Yeah. Right. It's not like strength training doesn't work for everybody and simple time effective techniques are really effective for anybody. Appropriate approaches to nutrition.

14:47
sleep, stress, et cetera. I mean, they're universal, right? And so really the thing is it's for anyone who is in a similar position where they want somewhat time-effective, simple approaches to health that cut through the bullshit. Yeah. Same, same, basically. I guess if I had to choose a gender, I would say I prefer working with women because I'm also not really what I'd call a manly man.

15:16
It's funny that at Eclipse we like sort of maybe talking blokey, we do blokey things, we like fighting, like BJJ, things like that. Like what these sort of manly things, you know, if we were painting that um black and white brush. But uh at the same time, we don't think of ourselves that way. And yeah, my following on Instagram is close to 70 % women, um which is interesting. And yeah.

15:44
I find working with women less ego, more willing to learn, more willing to try new things. And it's often for me, it's a far easier coaching process. um maybe, then the guys I tend to attract have a similar mindset, you know, in that sense. So yeah, it's definitely my preference. And yeah, we're two guys sort of having a chat, so to speak, talking about the things that we have learned over our lives.

16:13
And I think that's very applicable to any gender. And it's interesting, isn't it? Because I have seen on, of course, social media, because that's where we, you know, this is where I'm thinking about as to where I would even see this information. Yes, and where I live. There's almost always pushback when a male professes to know how to train a female or that, you know, like you don't have this lived experience. I in fact saw yesterday someone saying, you don't have this lived experience of

16:41
What it's like to be a perimenopausal woman? And I'm like, mate, if that's what you needed to fully be able to coach someone to the best optimal health, then, I mean, that doesn't even make sense to me. it says nothing about experience of working with people like that or indeed, you know, knowledge-based garnered from education, et cetera. I think there is a place for it, you know, and I think that when one has a lived experience,

17:11
that does provide them an additional perspective, is important, you like in the volunteer work I do, particularly with our sort of communities here, the Romani community, et cetera. It's really important that we're speaking from the perspective of the Romani community and its traditions and the elders, you know, and their perspective is paramount because they have the lived experience of the culture and whatnot. And I think the same thing is true in health, but

17:39
It doesn't preclude someone from being really effective as a coach for a particular person. And then it's about, it's about the person who wants to be coached. And if you go to someone who's getting great results, you know, let's say a perimenopausal woman who's getting great results being coached by Daz. Do you think someone coming in from the outside and saying, you shouldn't be coached by Daz because he's not a perimenopausal woman, they're just going to say bugger off. Daz is awesome. Why hell wouldn't I want to be coached by him?

18:05
And I think that's where that sort of pragmatic middle ground is. And people like yourself and Karen and Lauren Colenso Semple and others are quite vocal about that. Like if someone's putting out great information and they're helping you achieve your goals, what's wrong with that? They don't need to have a particular avatar. And it plays into what we were talking about before, right? It's really funny when I look on social media, because I have my news feeds blocked usually, but if I unblock them on Facebook, it's really interesting the stuff that I

18:34
get an advertisement because it's obviously reading certain demographic information about me. I'm a male who does jujitsu and lifts weights and all this kind of stuff so i just get like hard right. Stuff like it's real alpha bro kind of advertising and it's like it's it's anathema to me because i look at it and go that's not me that's kind of gross like i don't take that so it's really interesting how you can be characterized by the things you do. Rather than the ethos you hold.

19:03
And, you know, we talked about that a lot when we founded New ZS because we had really different people getting on board. We had people like Darren, who was the best cross-fitter in the country. had, you know, people like Ma'a Nonu. We had top BJJ athletes, but we also had vegan hippies and yoga instructors and all sorts. The thing is they actually shared a common ethos of health and sustainability. And that was the key thing that, that bound them together. It wasn't how they looked.

19:31
or what they were necessarily doing. It was more how they felt and how they thought about the world. When I was glancing through your book and just reading on topics, like I dived straight to the nutrition stuff, just because that's my wheelhouse, as you know. Do you do nutrition? I Yeah. Yeah. And I was looking at information on alcohol, caffeine, fasting, et cetera.

20:00
And at first glance, someone might be a little bit frustrated by you guys because you're not out there telling me what to do at all. And I think some people would find that quite frustrating actually. as they're reading it, they're you know, caffeine, you know, like is it good or bad? Fasting, good or bad? Ultimately though, when you do read it, it sort of gives that almost what you mentioned, auto regulation quite a few times.

20:30
And we can sort of talk about what that means just so people are, you know, understand what you mean by that. I mean, I think they will, but let's just clarify that. But also what it does is it forces the reader to actually think about it in their own context, because you're asking questions about their lifestyle. You're asking about their preferences. You're asking about ah their own sort of biofeedback. And then you're getting them to think about it in the context of

20:59
fasting, caffeine, alcohol, et cetera. So it's more of a choose your own adventure rather than a this is what you need to do because this is what science and experience tells us. And great stuff guys. I really loved it. Lift Sammy to some difficulties. And he's the man to speak on this stuff. I only had a modest contribution in that chapter. however, the...

21:26
premise though. That's how you talk as well in terms of your exercise stuff too, right? Yeah, absolutely. I'm um certainly a big fan of auto regulation, autonomy. We're sort of trying to do ourselves out of a job in a sense, because if you are just blindly following a plan, um not to say that that can't be really helpful guardrails in the beginning, um but learning to then navigate yourself.

21:55
to stick with a similar analogy is a very important skill to learn. And then that doesn't mean you can't still use a map, but it's knowing then if the map doesn't open on your phone, you still know how to recognize landmarks or something like that. I was just talking to a client yesterday. We were talking more about training, but I was saying, you know, what I want to hear from you is I ended up traveling for work and I went to a different gym and they had different machines. So I swapped this for that.

22:23
And I'll be like, yeah, great. That's exactly what I would have told you to do. And they made that decision themselves instead of, oh, ah I don't know what to do. uh Days are flying. It's a different time zone. I may as well just not work out. And it's a similar thing with nutrition. Yeah, nice one. And auto regulation, like we're literally just talking about reading your own cues and making your

22:51
own decisions based on your feedback, right? Yeah, well, I think that when people are overly prescriptive and they're speaking to the masses, there's always going to be a larger number of people that doesn't work for, you know, and this is where I think we have so much, but people want it on a surface level, but do they actually want it or actually need it? And this is where, you know, we have so many people who are biohackers, life hackers, you know, putting out this optimized life type message.

23:19
You must do these 15 things when you first wake up and then all these things through the day, and then these things to wind down for bed and you've got to do this and this and this and this via training. And the reality is that, you know, any one of those things may be great, but any individual doesn't necessarily need to do them either. And so I think one of the things that we did in the book was open the doors to possibility and give people pathways.

23:48
to action but also give enough of the clear advice for the key big rocks that they can start putting in place those things. know, overriding concepts like should, you know, we should eat a diet that's mostly based on unprocessed foods. And a really nice idea to help put that into meals is a modular approach, right? And certain things will help you to auto-regulate your energy intake, like getting your sleep right and eating enough protein.

24:16
and eating lots of vegetables and those types of things, all of which come under that sort of modular approach anyway. So I think, you know, I would hope that people can read it and learn a bit more about things like caffeine and fasting and whatnot, and then not be so scared about either doing it or not doing it or not freak out about having their coffee in the morning, those types of things, but also take away enough of those actionable points where

24:40
It is actually quite simple to at least start the process and start to do those key things that really help to improve, you know, health overall. And obviously a big part of the book was a focus on strength because I think Des and I both agree that that is such a, an important part of not just health, but it crosses over to other domains. You know, and I used to speak with my old buddy, Steve Angel, who's unfortunately passed on a few years back. He's always talk about that.

25:09
that crossover between the mind, the body and the spirit when we're talking about strength, like you get stronger and you're going to be mentally more resilient. You know, especially if you're approaching life in a particular way, you're also likely to be more, dare I say it, sort of resilient and more sort of in touch with yourself because you're stronger within yourself. I feel like if we're thinking about strengths and thinking about muscle, and I will get to these, these questions that Chat2BT spat out.

25:38
I'm soon, but something's actually been on my mind and I'm quite curious to hear your thoughts. And this is like just me chatting to you guys as a mate. Like I'm in the gym two or three times a week, most weeks actually. And I work to the point where I, like, and I've gotten much better at this over the last, let's say four years of working to the point where the last one to two reps are particularly hard, but particularly in the last set, whether it's, it might be oh

26:07
three sets that I'm doing most of the time. Sometimes it's four, depends on what it is. I basically focus on uh more larger muscle groups. And my physique has changed somewhat over the last sort of four years, but I feel like there's almost like this message of this endless pursuit of muscle. And I'm like, well, what about if I just want to maintain what I've got? Like, is that enough for me as a 48 year old woman? Can I, can my...

26:35
goal be actually just to try to maintain as much as I can rather than have this pursuit of building more and more? I think so. I mean, it's that spectrum, right? Again, I was chatting to a client yesterday about this. There's a road that leads us to too much muscle. And we look at the public figures right now, like The Rock and Dave Bautista and things like that, who are these guys are all slimming down drastically to the point where

27:05
social media is like, you know, are these guys sick or what's happening or they're off the roads or maybe they're off the roads, not sick. I hope they're not sick. But I think what a lot of these guys do, you see people finishing up their sporting careers or these action hero phases and they are realizing that that amount of muscle is not a healthy amount to sustain. But certainly at some point there's too little muscle. And what is that?

27:33
I don't know if Cliff, if you have any sort of harder numbers or percentages around what that is. ah But yeah, that's the case is at some point after 40, we're generally just trying to hold on to what we've got. And again, we're now coming back to like, what was your athletic sporting uh exercise history like three 20s and 30s? know, we're at what point are you starting with? So certainly I'm talking to some clients where we are certainly talking about

28:01
adding muscle and it being a priority, even as we're hitting 40 or 50 or even 60. Right. And to generalize the older they are in the end, if they are female, usually that's where the conversation is more trending. Right. And it's a, it's a constant frustration for me to hear women feeling like they are being force-fed protein, excessive amounts of protein and this very masculine strength training protocol.

28:31
uh But what it is, is unfortunately, it's just this big divide between where they were in their 20s and how they practiced nutrition and exercise. And suddenly they're arriving at 40 and it seems like this big shock and this big contrast between how they used to behave nutritionally and exercise based. um And that's a shame. And so it's suddenly like, no way that's you're trying to turn me into a bodybuilder. But really what we're trying to do is sort of bring them up into this

29:00
median level. um I'm going on a bit of a tangent now, yeah, Cliff, what you got to add to that? Yeah, I think that a lot of it is also about what people do versus what the outcome is likely to be, right? And know, Des brings up some really good points of people like, know, Dave Bautista and The Rock and whatnot, and Dorian Yates, you know, who now does a lot of endurance activity and stuff like that. The reality is they're still very well-muscled people.

29:28
And previously they would have been doing a huge amount of volume. They would have been obsessed with the nutrition to maybe a point where it's not necessarily healthy. All the other things with the performance and enhancing drugs and whatnot. And so for those people, it's about bringing it back to health through what they're doing in terms of their process. If we're looking at where most people are, especially those people over 40, probably the majority of people don't have enough muscle and that'd be better off.

29:57
Building some reserve or the very least like you say maintaining what they have because that muscular decline and that's cup in your overtime is a real respect for later health issues right. And you know as we all know the things that we do to say retain muscle especially if we're not eating enough or gain muscle or actually very similar. Strength training eating enough protein not necessarily having to.

30:24
to take an excessive amounts, but certainly eating sufficient amounts of protein, strength training, taking care of some of the other factors that help us to do those other health behaviors as well. So I think a lot of people put the cap before the horse when they're worrying too much about, well, what's going to happen? Because it's like, well, it's not going to happen until you do something. And the reality is we all know that especially with say women over 40, it's

30:50
Very rare the exception would prove the role for people to gain muscle to quickly. Right even for us guys it's not easy always to gain muscle you know we can certainly do it but it's not like it's gonna be. 10 kilos of muscle in the next six months. Sorry you know that the process is critically important. I think this is where a lot of people derail themselves because they already worrying about what's gonna happen if i do this or that. This is what am i.

31:18
not doing now and what are the simple things I can start to put in place right now to just be healthier, to feel that little bit better, to have more energy, you know, and also long-term, yeah, to reduce my risk of falling when I'm breaking my hip, you know, having cardiovascular disease, those types of things. You know what, guys, I speak to so many women who are healthy, know, they're metabolically healthy. They are um

31:47
They're at a healthy body weight, i.e. not at a body weight that causes them to be unhealthy from a metabolic standpoint. They love yoga. They love to hike. They might chuck a dumbbell in there occasionally. But literally, the last thing that they ever want to do is do anything to do with strength training. Yet, cardiovascularly, they're fit. They're not going to be doing a HIIT session anytime soon, that's for sure. None of this sit business, but they're out hiking in the mountains.

32:17
walking 60 to 120 minutes a day and doing yoga maybe three or four times. Are those people doomed? What message would you have for these women? is there a way for them to actually avoid any other type of training but still actually live a long healthy life? What do you reckon? They're certainly gonna do better than the average person. I guess you've sort of described some of these blue zones and things like that.

32:47
people do very well simply being active. But I certainly to come at it another way, I talk to so many people who are basically that avatar. And, you know, it's not really a switch that gets thrown, you know, at a certain age, but at some point there's suddenly this awareness that stuff's getting harder. Why am I, why do I seem to be gaining body fat when I haven't changed a thing about my diet? Why am I suddenly making that...

33:16
groany old person noise when I get up out of the chair. Oh heck, I just suddenly realized that I can't get up off the floor. But that's for sympathy. You're milk it. It's like, you kids, look what you've done to me. uh And I think it can creep up. it's, strength training. I did a post just yesterday, I think it was something along the lines of, we don't end up in assisted living because of a poor VO2 max.

33:46
It's frailty, it's loss of strength. And it's often that I'm stuck on the toilet, had to call for help that suddenly people realize they're in trouble and that is strength training, it's loss of muscle. um I sometimes get conflicted. I want to say muscle building and bodybuilding instead of strength training and resistance training, because I don't, I sometimes feel like we say strength and resistance training to avoid scaring people with the words muscle building.

34:14
But, they go hand in hand to a certain degree, but um yeah, strength training is a way to kind of sneak it in past people who are scared of gaining muscle. I wish it wasn't the case. I would say that the key is progression and that's where most people miss out. And I think this is why the research on strength training, although it's very strong, like I would say, despite what a lot of people are saying nowadays about, you know, zone two is the key and all this kind of stuff. I think if we pragmatically look at the research.

34:43
Progressive approach to strength training is going to give the biggest bang for buck, which is not to say you shouldn't do the other stuff. You absolutely should, but it's the area that a lot of people are also not not doing. The key though is irrespective of whether you're in the gym or whether you're doing something else. Like let's take yoga. For example, the reality is that a lot of people who are that avatar you described Mickey, they're not necessarily approaching it in a progressive way.

35:09
so they might go to the yoga class couple times a week and it's the same kind of stuff they used to and so they're not really adapting as a result. If they were taking a really progressive approach to the yoga. Learning new skills doing more advanced poses it's really infinite how challenging you could make that. Right and i think anyone who was 70 years old and doing yoga derived handstands and handstand push ups and. All sorts of things that they're gonna be pretty freaking strong and they're probably going to preserve.

35:37
muscle but the reality is that a lot of people are necessarily looking at it in that way. Not only would that have benefits to the body in a similar fashion to strength training. What are the things i like to drop in to my recommendations is do the things you love. Because even if we're doing it's a minimum effective dose approach to strength training because you should really just do that just to make sure you're foundation strong muscle etc. There are other benefits that come from.

36:07
Being involved in something that you're passionate about and especially when it's complex and you're learning new things all the time. So for example, yoga, if you're taking a progressive approach and you're doing new poses, then neuro-muscularly challenging and that's going to help to offset Alzheimer's and reduce your risk of Parkinson's and things like that. As would doing any other complex sport like your jujitsu is a great example.

36:36
It's as mentally challenging as it is physically to the point where, you know, people are getting those sort of dual benefits. So I don't think that people will not get results if they're doing some of those things. They just need to take that really progressive approach to it. Part of that's playwright as well. Experiment, have fun. It's not about getting to a point of, I can do it now. Once I had a guy, a strength coach say to me, oh, you're giving a power clean workshop this weekend.

37:04
Will I be able to do a perfect power clean at the end of the day? Like, as if that was the metric. It's like, I don't know someone who can do a perfect power clean. And I train with Richie Patterson and I'm coached by Nigel Avery and Richard Dryden and all these, you know, great coaches and around these great weightlifters, they're still refining their craft. Infinitely, even when they come to the end of their career, it's like, never quite perfected the technique, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, know, it's interesting with, with like both of your viewpoints on sort of what

37:34
we need to maintain our health across the lifespan basically. ah Because a bit of pushback I actually see on social media and I've gotten myself when I talk about the likes of protein or strength training is, well, my parents didn't do that and they're really healthy at 85 or something. you know, so dismissing the idea that we need to even focus on these things because our parents never did and look, they're fine. But they're not.

38:02
It's a garbage argument because most people at that age are not physically able and they're getting worse. Now we see exceptions and some of them are lucky. Some of them it's actually because what they're doing or what they've done their entire lives. If you keep, you know, you're on a farm and you're a farmer and you keep loading those bales until you're 70 and then you retire. Yeah. For a while you're to hold onto that. If you like my old man who trains in the gym and plays tennis and touch and all that kind of stuff and is a real nugget.

38:30
at the age of whatever it is, 76 or so, like, yeah, you're going to retain some pretty good health, but you're actually doing the things that we're suggesting unless you're that unicorn. And in that case, again, it's a great example of the exception proves the rule. Sometimes people, there's not much, the comparison is quite mild because if you go from, if you've done nothing your whole life,

38:57
And then you're looking back, like you sort of haven't lost a lot of capacity, but you never had it to begin with. And we see those sort of uh graphs where an inactive person, their sort of longevity or their health span or whatever the metric is. And it's this very straight line and then a very long drop off. And then an athlete that's up here and the drop off seems a little steeper. And that's often why I struggle with older ex athletes. They have this loss of

39:27
ability because the angle, the area and the curve seem so great. And they're thinking back to their former self. But of course, when it comes to end days, that point is still so much further above the person who's done nothing. And so this person down here looking back, there's hardly any change. And they're like, yeah, I've still got it. It's just like, sorry, Bill, you never had it to begin with.

39:54
That's a really good point to this because I remember we talked about this with Mike Huffam years ago on a little party. also talked about that idea that if, well, let's take when you're younger, right? Maybe it's different for kids nowadays, but when we were growing up, of course, we did a lot of activity and at lunch times you're running around playing touch and you're playing tennis and you're doing this and that. And then you maintain a lot of health and fitness and strength and whatnot through your 20s, maybe into into your 30s.

40:23
And you kind of think it's because of what I'm doing now. Like, so in my case, it was doing some weightlifting and getting back into martial arts and those types of things. But I think I was still physically degrading to some point because I wasn't doing all of that multimodal activity. But you just don't realize until you get to a point where it's like, well, I can't really step laterally anymore. I'm not that explosive with those, you know, most multimodal movements anymore. And so I think a lot of people, come to, let's say retirement age and there's a little bit of lag there.

40:52
Especially if they've had a physical job where it's like, I'm still in pretty good neck. Yeah. But how are you declining and how fast does that decline? And you know, the key then goes back to process. So irrespective of where you're at now, what are you actually doing? Like are you strength training? Are you doing fun things? Are you challenging your mind? Are you sleeping well? Are you doing all those various things? Because if not, at the very least you won't be as healthy, resilient, as functional as you could be.

41:21
So why wouldn't you want to do that? Especially when you can achieve pretty good results from, to be honest, not a lot of time input, right? There are minimum effective dose uh protocols, which we talk a lot about in the book, which allow people to get really good results from a limited input. I feel like with that last point, that's really going to be beneficial for people who do feel time crunch. Who doesn't though, to be fair? If you've never prioritized physical activity, it's another thing that you need to do. Same thing with...

41:50
good habits around food. you've ever prioritized food prep or meal planning, then of course it seems like this is yet another chore. um But if you can do it in a um time efficient way, and then ultimately, and I've been thinking about this a lot this week actually, at the start of anything new, the effort that you have to put in, it is rough. It is a lot of effort. You have to think about it, focus on it. It's not your default.

42:19
The lift is really heavy actually at the start and people think, oh my gosh, is this what it takes to do this? There's no way I'm to continue to do this for the rest of my life without considering the idea that over time that it becomes habit and that lift and effort has to diminish because suddenly it's a default, not suddenly, but over time, I'm sorry, it's this default behavior. And I think this is a point that people don't often think about when they're sort of contemplating

42:47
changes like the ones that you guys are describing in the book? Yeah, and think people don't, sometimes don't realize what they've heaped on their plate. And I talk to, I have a great gym set up and love training there, but I also have a local gym and it's nice to get out of the house because I work at home and I get into conversations with people there and they'll say things like, know, well, I'm just trying to muster up the, you know, they're already in the gym, but they're still trying to muster up the go to get started. And I say, what are you doing today? And they'll list off this.

43:16
freaking laundry list of movements. I'll be like, that's, you just described my entire week. No wonder you're, you know, you, you, you still trying to like wrangle up the Cajones to actually begin your workout. Um, and it's not really a brag, but I kind of do get this weird little ego boost. I love arriving after I've got coach's eyes, right? So I can add a glimpse. I can see everyone who's in there. I know what they're doing. I know they're moving back of the head, all that stuff. And I walk in the gym.

43:45
And I see people engaged in their workouts and then I'm leaving before they're finished. And sometimes I've come in and I've done a full body workout and I've noticed the kid in the corner, he's on his, he was doing bicep curls when I arrived and he's on his third different bicep curl exercise when I left. And it's that scenario where he's never going to take any advice from me, this old coot walking up to him and trying to help, know, so it's just sometimes it's like a lost opportunity, but I also get this weird little ego boost in a weird way.

44:15
I don't wish them to not make progress, but I see this lack of progress and I know that what I'm doing, was a minimum, it's effective, it ticked the box, it was working. ah It's a bit weird, but that sometimes kind of gives me the G up. oh But yeah, I would love to be able to share it. And so this is how it works. I can't actually speak to someone face to face, but they might read my our book, get the advice that way.

44:42
Yeah. Someone would come home and I'd I tried talking to a kid today. Um, cause he was doing something completely wrong. And he just looked at me like, Oh, this frankly old guy. I gave it, I gave him my best shot. can remember those old, old fellas giving me advice in the gym. I thought they were bloody weirdos as well. I looked back and I know they were right. Uh, except for the guy who was riding the X cycle, um, wearing a glad wrap suit. That was, um, that's been disproved.

45:12
But, uh, yeah, most of the, most of the advice is pretty good. And that's the second all the way back to that, that wisdom and age chat, guess. Yeah. Yeah. I remember an old dude that used to train at club Green's gym when I had a little supplement shop there back in 98 or so. And he used to come in every time he would either do squats or dead lifts, bench press or military press, and some pull ups or rows. And we were all like,

45:41
That's all the dude does, but he must've been 60 years old, very well-muscled, strong fit, functional. And I talked to him a lot about it and it really changed a lot of my philosophy around lifting because he was the archetypal example of the older minimum effective dose athlete who was getting great results. Now, one thing that I think is really important is this concept that I'm just sort of playing with at the moment of force versus fun.

46:10
And so many people are approaching their health or their strength because they feel they need to, right? I need to do, just like when you need to give a speech, oh no, I need to give the speech, but I'm really nervous about it. Cause most people would rather approach death than approach a public speaking event, right? According to the research. so the techniques that people use to try and approach that forcing themselves, they're either just going to muscle through it or they try, they try to calm down or suppress their anxiety around it.

46:40
doesn't work. The way that has been found in the research to be most effective for improving your public speaking ability is to think about all the positives, the benefits, the fun, the joy, get excited about it, because that's what the anxiety actually is. It's like performance anxiety, right? When we're before an event, it's actually preparing us to do it well. But if we try and push it down, it's like trying to put the top on a boiling pot, boom, it's not going to work. I think the same is true when we approach nutrition or strength training. So often, uh

47:10
People like trying to find the perfect thing. I need to find that perfect diet. You may not find it, but hey, why not have some fun? Experiment with some different things, use some foundational approaches, but find a way that works for you for now. And don't be afraid to play around with some things in the future either. It's not like I will always go in and kettlebell military press and deadlift and that's all I'm going to do for the rest of my life. I might do that for a training block because I just have no...

47:37
Mental capacity to do anything else and I just want real basics. Other times I might be doing 10 exercises in a session. Usually not, but maybe. Right. And so there's, there's a place for playing and having fun with what you're doing too. And when I find out with clients, I find when they start to approach it in that way, it becomes so much, so much different because you think about any time in your life that you become excited about something, you don't need to force yourself to do it. You want to do it. Like even at the age now of, you know,

48:05
46 nearly 47. I still look at my training app. It's my own app. dig it. But I look at my training app the night before I'm like, I can't wait to get in the gym and train. Cause to me that's fun. Right. If I had a plan that was not fun for me though, of course it wouldn't be like that. I would feel like, God, I got to force myself to do it. You know, and if people can find those elements of fun that serve their health and their overall sort of life purpose in a, in a different way.

48:31
then it stops being quite so difficult. They still need to implement those tactics that end up being behaviors, but it's more about then allowing the fun to happen rather than forcing oneself to do something that somebody else said is the best way to do it. I love that Cliff. um for both of you, know that, or at least from what I've seen from you Cliff and Daz, I know your programming pretty well now, that you're very much that minimum effective dose. You hit the

49:01
the key muscles that really matter in a way that makes it effective. And Cliff, just so you know, last week you were putting up on social media, like the workouts from your app, I think. And I'm like, oh, I'm just going to do these this week. And I was a bit disappointed. I only found two of them that I did, but I love both of them. Like, I think it was like deadlift and then, I don't know, a row and then like a military press and then one other thing. And I'm like, this was great. And you feel like you get a great workout.

49:31
you feel like you're hitting most of the groups of muscles that you need to be hitting, and then you're out the door in like 40 minutes. I was like, awesome. Yeah, and that's certainly not to say that there aren't longer approaches that work really well and high volume approaches. We've all done it. I've done the volume training when I was weightlifting, 10 sets of 10, all that kind of stuff. But the reason I programmed that way, and there are quite different programs within the app as well, but the reason I programmed that way is because it started out as,

50:00
Basically training with me. This is what I do and I'm going to post it up in the app and you can do it as well if you dig it. And I only have a limited amount of time to train in the morning. get up, you know, I feed the kids. Have a bit of fun with them. And then I get in the gym train and then I'm into work and I just don't have the it's almost the mental load at the moment as well. I just don't have that mental freedom to think I can put aside 60 or 90 or 120 minutes.

50:27
It's more like 45 max and often it's 30 minutes, but Hey, I feel now, especially with some of the other digging I've done for my own hell. And I took the lead from dads actually, cause dad's has always sort of said at 40, I want to be, you know, more functional fit than I was at 30. And I've always thought that's really cool mentality. And I was still pretty strong, functional at 30. I probably had quite a big decline over my thirties.

50:56
because of some other health stuff going on. But I think at 50, I would definitely be stronger, healthier and more functional than I was at 40. And that's cool, right? And I can hopefully sort of maintain that, which is not to say that I was ever degraded to any large degree. I've always been all right, but you know. Yeah, yeah, no, I know. And for what it's worth, I feel in a similar camp. Like if I think about me now at 48, I am so much stronger, uh fitter. I'm not faster, but I'm fitter.

51:25
And I'm much more functional in how I move than I ever was when I was running at my best in my mid to late thirties with that really myopic focus, which was fine at the time. You know, that was my goal. But I think that, but I'm really pleased with how my, I guess it's my knowledge, my wisdom, the information that I'm garnering now in these lady years have really sort of got me to the point where I am not that I'm like, this is where I'm not at the pinnacle. And it's not like I can no longer improve.

51:55
I feel really happy with sort of where I've progressed, which is really nice. And you're no doubt though, you've seen there's probably someone you follow on social media who is, I'm not going to exaggerate for the example effect, but they're 58 and they've beaten your all time marathon record. you're like, heck, maybe, maybe am I settling too soon? Because of course, thanks to social media, we can see that there's, there is someone out there, but of course,

52:24
they're on their third marriage and uh they're completely hormonally disrupted and they have an eating disorder and stress fractures in their feet and something like that. But they went close to that stuff, of course. And so we're like, heck, like, oh, I don't want to be average. Am I giving up? And that's something I talk about a lot. And I use that word average quite proudly is I'm not as strong nor as fit as I...

52:49
was at anymore. I have declined in some performance metrics, but I sleep an extra hour or two a night. I'm much less stressed. I'm far more mobile. I'm carrying more muscle. have no pain. Most of the time, there's the odd legacy that will flare up from things I did when I was younger and dumber. as a rule, in my competitive years, I was sore all the time and my nervous system was fried.

53:19
uh I was sort of having to force food down, know, to fuel the effort. So gut bloat, like this, was, yeah, I was, I guess a Ferrari that was constantly needing maintenance because it was so fragile in that sense. Yet on paper, it could perform very well. But now I'm a, I don't know, I love it. I love that analogy. I relate a hundred percent to that. Cause obviously, you know, I'm not as

53:49
When I look at some of the numbers that I put up and I don't, you I was never the strongest person on the planet, but I was fairly strong when I was competing. And when I look at some of those numbers now compared to what I can do, it's, it's literally like a different person. You know, it feels like it's absolutely night and day, but to Dan's point, when I was at my absolute strongest, I was also probably under fueled and not sleeping very well because of that anxious. My mental health was worse. I was in pain all the time.

54:18
Cause there were things that I just wasn't doing well outside of that, despite looking ripped to shreds and being, you know, performing well and those types of things. And so I think one of the, the nice things is we get a bit of that additional wisdom, which hopefully will continue to grow over time is that we start to be more comfortable in our own skin and realize that we can take a slower approach to things. Not necessarily be rushing to a record of what we can live.

54:48
But be really happy with those key things behind it that help us to live better overall. Right. And if there's one thing that comes through from my whole experience, which has culminated in getting together with Daz and writing this, it's that idea of not rushing. Cause I used to rush all the time. I would have been stronger, set more records, had a better competitive lifting career had I not rushed. Had I not wanted to cut that weight to be competing under 70 or under 75.

55:18
that year, maybe put on some extra weight, not win the gold, win the bronze, you know, but come back and set some records at a higher weight class, those types of things. It's all about that, you know, rushing to the end post rather than focusing on what's going to give the greatest resilience, which is the thing that really comes in now, I'm sorry, I'm going to digress here again, guys, but I've been working with some really interesting clients lately because they're former athletes.

55:47
who are really committed to their health and fitness. They do a lot of training, they eat perfectly, everything like on paper looks great. And one interesting thing is in every case, when I've looked at it pragmatically, it's like you do so much activity. If you want to, like if you do it because you love it, that's great. But if you want to free up a little bit of extra time, I have a very strong suspicion that you will be just as fit.

56:14
probably stronger, probably gain more muscle and be more resilient overall if you cut your volume back. And they've often said, oh, let's try it as an experiment. And a couple of cases that really stand out, like one of these former athletes actually dropped their resting heart rate and has improved their VO2 by doing less. The other one has all of their metrics are basically identical despite about halving the volume, but now they are stronger.

56:42
and have gained at the age of being in their 50s, I think around three kilos of muscle. Oh, wow. Over probably a three month period. Oh my gosh. Body fat and exactly the same. So pretty cool stuff because they've been blown away and they've said like, I'm shocked that I can do less, but be more intentional, more effective and still have all the same benefits health wise, all the same enjoyment. In fact, a slightly more and greater enjoyment because I now am more focused.

57:12
like a more intentional when I'm Whereas before it was something I did on the sidelines because I've thought of myself as an endurance athlete. And also freeing up now that extra bit of time. Now that time, sometimes they still do extra stuff, but it's just pure fun. Play like, oh, that thing I wanted to do, play some guitar, I'm going to do that. But you know, I was thinking about picking up pickleball, but I didn't have time before. So now I'm to try that. Right? Pretty cool. Yeah, that is because I feel like we, because we do have

57:40
decades behind us in a certain mindset of how things must be done in order to achieve what we want or maintain what we've got. It feels like it's difficult to take your foot off that sort of gas pedal and do less actually. That less is more message is a really hard one for people to learn. Especially science sort of has proven that more is better, categorically more volume.

58:09
is more results if, but this, that's the important caveat. If you can recover and adapt to it. Exactly. course, people read the first sentence and like, sweet. Uh, but it's like, yeah, but your sleep needs to be dialed in plus a nap food, you know, absolutely perfect. No stress. So yeah, it's like, are you 25? Do you live at home and your mom cooks for you and you sleep 10 hours a day? Cool. Let's go high volume. But the other way is again, um, let's just start with less.

58:39
It's like someone, you know, in the old days and with when owning a gym and people would buy their skipping rope and they would say, how much do I cut off it? And I said, just start with the least possible because we can always cut more, but we can't take it back once we've cut too much off the rope. And so it's like, do two sets and, and go like you were explaining work up to that, you know, one to two reps and reserve, push them hard, see what happens, see how you feel.

59:05
If you're like, yeah, I'm smoking this and I feel like I've got energy to spare at the end of it, let's try three sets in a month's time. And then we'll give that a couple of months and see how that feels. what I think what happens, even saying that you'll still notice the sets will start creeping up and the effort will start creeping down because we're, built to pace where, you know, we're Kalahari, uh, persistence hunting, uh, genetics. actually.

59:32
prefer to just tone it back a little bit. And so I see that the volume of people's workouts will creep up, but the effort has backslid. And so uh that's what ends up becoming the stimulus is the volume. But the problem is now fatigue is coming up as well. And we've got that fitness fatigue hypothesis model and um fitness may go up, but fatigue is also climbing. And at some point, fatigue crosses to a higher point and it's like, oh heck, what just happened? It felt perfectly fine up until then.

01:00:02
So yeah, it's usually, usually better is better, not more is better for the average person, especially us over 40 crew. And the doable, even if it's imperfect, is better than the undoable perfect, right? Yeah. And I think often, especially now with the volume obsession, because I get a lot of people asking me about, know, you know, there's no upper limit to volume though. So should I just be training more and more and more? It's like, well, how much are you training now? I'm pretty inconsistent. Okay. Well, if we look at the research, there's two...

01:00:31
nuances to the research i think number one that a lot of people don't appreciate enough is that the early seats give you the biggest results. What's the weight so that first you do with one or two reps and reserve is gonna give you probably eighty nine percent of the results and the next one might be another five or ten percent. And then it starts to play off pretty quickly but there are still incremental gains but today's point you gonna be able to recover from it. um

01:00:58
Similarly for things like meditation, you know, I've talked about this with both of you before. Those clients who say, and I know I should, but I'm not. Well, then I sort of say, well, okay, let's remove should and do you want to do it? Yes or no. They say no, cool, let's not do that right now. If they say yes, okay, cool. Do you have a minute tomorrow? Yeah, I a minute. We'll do a minute then. And the next day too, do two. The next day do three. uh

01:01:24
get to a point that is doable and effective, like for example, 10 minutes. And the research is also very clear on this, that for most of the benefits of meditation, 10 minutes a day is as effective as 30 minutes or more. Cool, right? Yes. There are benefits to longer sessions, but in terms of the majority of the benefit, um 10 minutes will do that very well. And most of the benefits, particularly to things like stress, cognition, et cetera, are apparent on the day of.

01:01:54
So there is not always that much lag. So you're better off doing 10 minutes every day than 30 minutes every now and then. I think the same thing is true with strength training. Like what can you do realistically and what can you do consistently? Then do that. And, you know, to the mental side of things, I completely get, you know, when Daz talks about those types of elements of strength training, because if I see a program, even if I've written it for myself,

01:02:22
and it's got 11 exercises on it, I know that I'm just going to look at it and go, oh, no way. Now I'll get through it, but probably 60 % of the workout will be very unintentional, not very focused, and it's just junk volume. I'm better off cutting back to three or four exercises, hitting them for two or three sets and making sure it's really intentional. Better for my recovery, but I'm also going to get better results, I believe.

01:02:51
That does remind me of a couple of things. One is, and I know that I'm pretty sure you're not a fan, Daz, of Dave Goggins. I'm pretty sure, you might not like Dave Goggins either. But the one thing he says, which you will both agree with, because you've literally, you've almost just this yourself, Cliff, is that, you know, he's like, you know, it's Tuesday afternoon, it's a sunny Tuesday afternoon, and I'm signing up for 100 Mylar on Saturday. And he's like, things are always different on a sunny Tuesday afternoon, to your point. And I'm the same.

01:03:21
plan these epic runs or these epic sessions in the gym the afternoon or night before I'm going to do it. And then I wake up and think, what the hell was I thinking? I was like, I'm not going to do that. um So I appreciate it. It's almost like I confuse ambition. No, only at that moment I'm confusing my ambition with my ability. But in the morning, I'm very aware that I don't have the desire or the ability. Yeah.

01:03:49
What's you know i think that's where in the book we go into a few concepts that people might be surprised about like starting off with you know what you why and i know that that is a bit trite nowadays. Is there a bit of a backlash against it i know some of the sun is saying you who cares about your why just just do what you can do kind of thing. I still think there is value to. At least thinking about that idea because it helps to put in context the real reasons you want to be healthy and strong.

01:04:19
Because if you're doing it because people say, you need to do this for your health. Right. You know, and like I've given little talks for you before, when you're lecturing Mickey about things like the ambiguous nature of hell. How many clients do we have come and see any of us and say, I want to be healthy. That's not an objectively desirable goal because it doesn't actually mean anything. What does health actually mean to you?

01:04:42
Oh, it means I can do this and this and this and I can spend more time with my kids and I can do that job that I love and I can have more, you know, all those types of things begin to describe someone's life of passion and purpose. They actually need to understand that because if that context isn't there, nothing's going to be sticky, but they're not going to be able to evaluate things that come up. Like you've just mentioned as well. Like I might get really excited about something. Oh, this, that's a really cool thing. I'm to start doing that. I'm going to start playing the trombone. Cause it seems like an exciting thing to do, but when I actually.

01:05:12
sit back and objectively look at it in my life. It's like, I didn't actually want to play the trombone. That was just a fleeting flight of fancy, right? So many people will then be derailed by that flight of fancy. If we have an idea about our why and our ethos and values, that's always in the back of our mind. It's like, you know, that's not actually going to work with the actual life I want to be living. So I'll just cut that and I'll do the things that I need to do that I like to do for my health. And then I'm going to open up time, space and energy for having some play.

01:05:41
other things as well. Now it's not to say you shouldn't go and grab that trombone and have a play with it, but you might not want to make it a foundational aspect of your life either. It's like performance being such a big driver for people. And then at some point, as I was saying, performance has to drop. It's not a forever thing. We don't become these 90 year old super superheroes. And if performance is the only thing we're hanging on to, we don't have any passion or purpose with physical

01:06:11
movement, physical expression. It's a real shock to some people trying to figure out how to keep going in the gym. that's certainly not to pick on any sporting greats, but we probably all know of one from any particular sport who has declined quite rapidly physically after their competitive career is over. Because for them, it was probably just a job, not necessarily something they enjoyed. ah And it's reflected in those later years.

01:06:41
Yes, it's something to it is important as you said, tried as it is, if you don't have something like that, um you won't have that anchor once the performance metrics start to pay. So that's a really good point to do is because a lot of people who listening in who are over 40, they'll be in that position. And, know, when I was working with the guys from the match fit show, it was really interesting looking at the contrast between some of the players who admittedly they, you know, report this. They kind of needed

01:07:11
The structure and the sport and all those things around them to, do the healthy things, but also mass some unhealthy habits. You know, don't always need to eat perfectly if you don't all that amount of training, if you're part of the all blacks, whereas some of the players like, you know, Carlos was a really good example. He was pretty into his nutrition and strength training, all that kind of stuff. Anyway, the dudes are stuck, right? He looks amazing. Even that whatever age he is, um, I was talking with my, uh,

01:07:40
On the on Friday and you know, he's now the oldest player in the French premier league to both play and score a try. He's in his forties and he's in great shape. He's in great Nick. Now he is one of those athletes who made a commitment when he was younger to take care of his health, which a lot of athletes don't do. And a lot of us as younger athletes, maybe didn't think about that so much. It's all about the.

01:08:08
performance is not about the health and putting the performance. How hell does it in contrast to the performance is the foundation. You can succeed despite say a poor diet or despite sleeping poorly. You probably won't do it for as long and you when i was chatting with my other day he was saying that he probably wouldn't have played as long as he did if he had a kid on doing the poor habits that when he was younger. Now what's with us for the it's like well that's great i should have done that stuff back then it's never too late.

01:08:36
I always tell people the story of when I was younger and I wanted to start learning the bass guitar. You guys are going tell me to learn the bass guitar. I don't want to learn it anymore. But I wanted to learn the bass. I thought, I'm too old now because all my mates are already getting into instruments, already in bands and stuff. Then a few years later, it's like my mates have a band. They've got an opening for a bassist. I should have got involved earlier. It's like, no, it's too late now. They're going to fill that hole and whatever. A few years later, they lose their bassist again.

01:09:04
Right? At any stage I could have picked it up and actually just done it. So it's never too late to just start, you know, lifting something, to start going for that longer walk, to do things that you dig doing because they're good for your brain. Start playing chess, play your word games, do what you've got to do. To be fair, to be honest, Cliff, when you were telling that story, I was wondering whether Cliff was then going to tell me that his mates were like Neil and Neil Finn and... No, but they are in. uh

01:09:33
They are New Zealand's most successful hard rock band though. And I road managed them for about six months through Canada and the States. Oh, amazing. years ago. So yeah, they're a called Like a Storm and they've had several top 10 hits in the States. And they're a very successful band. Okay. Well, literally, I am going to Spotify them this afternoon when I'm having my gin and tonic. okay. So my question to you both, and I know that people will be reading the book because of course you covered this, but

01:10:01
It's so esoteric, it's so abstract. What is my why? know, like people don't know how to actually figure that out because they've got these top of mind things that come to them because we're very much stuck in that sort of, um you know, the uh here and now, like, you know, how we feel is sort of driving, you know, what we think like, oh yeah, I why? Because I want to lose weight. Why? Because I want to fit into my jeans. And then of course I think,

01:10:29
Well, that's not enough. I should probably think about my health, but it's actually not actually true. So, you know, for them at that moment, like, so I guess my question is, and again, people will read Awesome After 40 and they'll be able to be sort of guided for this, but can you sort of share with the listeners your best advice as to how to dig deep and find and actually start there? Cause I think that's really challenging for a lot of people. I think it's a process. Like if it's about fitting into the genes, cool.

01:10:59
Hold onto that and just start. But then just be open to um what's next. Because once you can fit into that pair of jeans, are you going to pick a smaller pair of jeans and start again? um Some might uh not recommend that. Again, what's after size zero? Is there smaller than size zero, Mickey? I hope not. Yeah, there is. There's zero zero. Of course there is. I think there is. oh

01:11:27
But hopefully my point still stands that usually at some point the goalposts need to shift and instead of, at least be just open to, instead of picking another goalpost that's the same, um a different kind of goalpost. yeah, it goes from, and we talk about extrinsic versus intrinsic goal. So extrinsic goals tend to be kind of,

01:11:54
that spark that get us going. But intrinsic goals will be the fuel that will keep that fire alive, so to speak. And we don't need any fuel to get a spark first, if I keep this analogy working. um But the spark disappears almost immediately and you need to strike another spark. And so at some point, if you want a fire, you need some fuel. And that comes from intrinsic motivation, intrinsic based goals. um

01:12:22
But yeah, just start with what works. Again, as Cliff said, you've got to actually get going. You've got to do the minimum. And so let's get that happening. And then we can start tidying things up. It's a perfect to the enemy of good kind of scenario. Get some good stuff happening, and we can always start improving it from there. But yes, let's make sure we are thinking about it at some point. Otherwise, you'll run out of sense.

01:12:51
I really love that because so many people get paralyzed by again, it's the idea of having to do it perfectly. So if we say, you, you know, probably a good idea to, before you even start something, look, look at your why. I don't know what my why is. And then they don't start. So I think, you know, the one of the things I love about Darren's approach is it's so practical. You know, if you've got a why that's enough, you can start. And I think what people.

01:13:19
Can often then do and they do this often naturally once they get started but i can also do it a little bit intentionally as well at times is. Start to ask the second why and the third why you know i want to get into those jeans is my why. Why do you want to get into the jeans. All because i'll be small again and you know be more attractive why is that important why do you want to be you know get to a point where they start to go from the extrinsic motivators naturally into the intrinsic.

01:13:49
Because, I want to, you know, I often use the example of that client who comes in and says, I want to run a marathon in three months. Great goal. Why do you want to, why do you want to do that? Oh, because I haven't run for 20 years. And so I feel like I'll get fitter and that'll make me healthier and I'll have better energy. Great. Why do you want to be fitter and have more energy? Cause at the moment I don't have the energy at the end of the day to play with my kids. Okay. Well, why is that important? I love my kids and I want to be more at home with the family.

01:14:18
I've also got this job that I love, but at the moment I don't feel onto it cognitively enough. And so they start to then go from performance goal. want to run a marathon to, my bigger goals are to be a great father and be creative and be great at what I do and have more energy for all those cool things. Right. It goes from, I want to run a marathon in three hours to I want to have a creative, passionate, purposeful life with my family doing shit that I love.

01:14:48
that's the sticky stuff because once they begin to think about that is really interesting element of neuro psychophysiology where the more ways that we can visualize and perceive the way we want it to be the more likely it is that we start to see the things in our environment that will allow that to occur. So once we start you like you probably thought about it in your mind's eye then this person.

01:15:13
Like I can see myself as that person in my backyard with my kids. can hear the bird song. can smell the flowers. can almost, you know, imagine picking them up. So it's visual auditory kinesthetic, right? That's the stuff that really drives neural change. And that's what it's all about. Right. Why is this guy talking about neural change? Because it's really important, right? We need to have those things become embedded and locked in up here.

01:15:41
translating through the body. And once we do that, everything I believe becomes a heck of a lot easier. Look, I completely agree. And I do think that a lot of what we talk about with diet, exercise, lifestyle, the people's first inherent thought is this physical transformation. But actually, a lot of the skills and habits that you guys talk about and teach in Awesome After 40 is actually, it's about

01:16:10
it leads to a much more deeper transformation. you can sort of shift who you are as a person, who you see yourself as a person, you gain in confidence as well. Well, this is aside from all of that stuff that you were talking about, Cliff, but I think this is another very real thing that will then allow someone to think a bit bigger and to actually go a bit deeper as well. Because sometimes we fear putting goals in place or thinking big picture because we don't know that we are capable of

01:16:38
of, I don't know, achieving something or of actually getting what we want. We don't quite believe in ourselves. And I just think these things, this area is such a perfect, I don't know, training ground for allowing us to sort of see that we can. Or we don't have the energy or brain space for it. 100%. And this is what I know we've all talked about this before. And I've mentioned it a number of times when you see a client and you might ask them on a snapshot, how do you feel from

01:17:08
What's the time on about a sex you know i know it could be a lot better so you get them in a bit of a process we talk about the goals etc they start eating a little bit better they said doing some strength training come back into the clinic are you feeling now i'm about seven before i was in a sex. I was a four i just didn't realize how should i was feeling. Write it opens up your possibilities then because a lot of people don't realize just how much the energy could be improved just by doing a couple little.

01:17:38
Not being Superman, not doing the Huberman 20 point morning rituals, just about doing those simple, simple things. And suddenly, hey, I start to feel that little bit better. Maybe now I have the energy, the cognition to do some of those other things that I've wanted to do. I didn't even realize I had the capability before, but now it's opening up the potential. Bill, Bill didn't realize he didn't have the capacity to begin with. It's basically exactly what Daz was saying earlier. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. I don't have energy to work out.

01:18:07
What's your idea of a workout? Crossfit class? know, 20k run? No, it's anything. It's all on a spectrum. So you have the energy to do something, figure out what that is and do that. stuff will start to shift. Okay, so if you had to remove everything you knew about training and health for people over 40 and keep only 20 % that gives 80 % of the results,

01:18:37
What would stay and what would be the non-negotiable? So we just talking broad principles like I said, strength training or? Strength training, eat protein, sleep, walk, all things. The man who struggles with the steps, you're doing much better. You're doing much better, Daz. Yeah. I think in terms of the physical, I would say, yeah, strength training and getting in those 7,000 steps a day.

01:19:06
Just as a bare minimum. So let's say you're doing two, even 30 minute sessions a week of strength. You could actually do less, but let's say two 30 minutes a week of strength and getting in those 7,000 steps a day. think you're going to cover your bases pretty well. Nutrition wise, there are a lot of really simple tactics, but one thing that comes to mind that I think is really interesting is the idea of mindfulness and along with that sort of presence and intentionality because they spring from mindfulness, right?

01:19:36
The reason I say that, and I'll again relate this by way of analogy, my good friend, Dr. Joe Klemczewski gave a really good talk at the SNA conference several years ago on basically the ineffectiveness physiologically of non-diet interventions. Now know all the non-diet people are going to come after me after this, that's fine. What he was saying was not that they're not effective, they are for improving people's quality of life, mental health.

01:20:03
psychological wellbeing, all critically important. So it's a really important part of what we do as nutritionists or nutrition coaches is that non-diet aspect. But what we've seen in the longer term research is they're not particularly effective for body fat changes, body composition, or for metabolic health, right? Because people often continue to decline. And so we made a really good point and he was citing the research and he was a hundred percent correct. But in a panel the following day, I did bring up one thing. said, Joe, there's one thing you missed. There is a non-diet intervention.

01:20:33
that meter analysis of the control trials show is effective for improving those markers with the entry body fat and metabolic health. Meditation mindfulness. And often and studies when they compare for example diet interventions versus mindfulness the people on the mindfulness protocol. Eat better and get better results for the health and the people on the dietary intervention. So i think this is a really good example of.

01:21:01
where there's crossover from things that basically are not seen to be as tactical, but they help us with our health behaviors so much where people can be more mindful and they're getting off their phones and they're being a bit more intentional presence. You know, that is probably the number one thing for health, I believe. I've even noticed little things like, you know, we talk about it a lot and most people make an effort to do it, but do we do it well enough?

01:21:32
If I'm with the kids, put the phone away. I'm not always perfect at it. And when I'm not perfect at it I get my phone out, I know that I'm more reactive. I might be more quicker to anger. I might be, you all of those things I don't want to be. Is it about the phone or is it just about being present? I think it's about being present, aware, you know, all that kind of stuff. so, sorry, I've talked too much. I'll summarize again, lift some heavy stuff, get out for a walk.

01:22:02
and be mindful. Nice. I love it guys. Okay. If you could wipe one fitness industrial complex myth, clearly this is ChatGPT, from the face of the earth, what is the one fitness myth that you would want to see die right now? Right now? Yeah, right now. It's that women are fragile little flowers who shouldn't do this or shouldn't do that because they're going to destroy their hormonal health and they're going to basically fail. think

01:22:32
I get on the man saying this and so people are going to come up to me but i think that it's been so disempowering for women to hear these messages that you should not train hard or you should not. Fast even if it works for you should not be low carb even if it works for you. Because the reality is there is such a massive variability. Between women and there's a lesser variability between men and women. Even though there are differences we all respect that.

01:23:02
It's almost like we're pink washing and disempowering under the guise of empowerment. And the thing that I see most commonly now is, is there is something that's failing women. You know, I go back to the example of my, my own coaching, which some people would look at ostensibly and say, it's fairly masculine focus, but the reality is there are women who are thriving under that environment because they just like the simple approaches to doing the hard stuff. Great. Do that.

01:23:31
Don't be bound by the sex that you were born or the gender that you identify with. Those things are not important. And even the idea that strength is a masculine trade is bullshit. I was in my competitive days, a strong person. There are women who were stronger than me. Are they any less a woman or are they any less feminine? No, they're just strong.

01:24:01
It's a distinct thing. So that's the thing that's probably one of my biggest bug bears at the moment. Come after me stratosphere. Do your worst. I back that one mate and perhaps just a slight tangent from it and similar is it's, I haven't got the idea fully formulated in my head, but it's, there's some kind of conflict or contrast between what people seem to, what, how hard people think that they need to train.

01:24:30
how hard and how much to do. We're getting bombarded with this message of more, more, harder, harder. And yet as a group, as a population, we seem to be training less hard. So it's a weird one where I see like this messaging of more and people are taking it on board. But then when I see it out there in the wild, I don't seem to see that effort.

01:24:58
population wise being reflected. And it's, yes, tacking on to Cliff and to generalize, you know, it's the pink dumbbells kind of scenario. And that's an interesting one. it's men and women alike. I'm sort of seeing this as a population. And so that's an interesting one is, we don't need to do it all. We don't need to do top 1 % stuff, but we probably need to do a bit more than we currently are. You know, this is a

01:25:27
slight tangent, but slightly related as well is like Cliff, you mentioned about, you know, different protocols for different sexes and all this information and people getting a bit confused, or at least if you didn't say that, that's what I was thinking about as you were talking about that. uh And I do, this is very unpopular to say, but I'll say it anyway. I think that there is just, there are people who just hide behind the idea that they're overwhelmed just to continue being, you know, to do nothing. You know, it's like, oh no, I'm, it's.

01:25:55
too much information. People are just arguing with each other. So I don't even know what to do. So I'm going to do nothing." And that's excuse. maybe that's, is that a cynical thing to say? Probably. But I have certainly had people relay stuff to me that I clock immediately, that it's nothing to do with what they're telling me. They're overwhelmed. They're just...

01:26:18
not in a space to do it. And actually maybe that's what they need to own. That's okay too, you know, like. And I see it in the nutrition space. It's the classic one was like, oh, bloating nutritionists, first eggs are good for you, then they're bad for you, then they're good for you again. oh, I may as well just have a cigarette and a chocolate bar. You must be loaded if you can smoke. I saw a guy today actually. I chocolate? Yeah, I know actually. And I literally saw a guy today as we were running, well off.

01:26:46
topic. And we were running past and he just lit a cigarette and it was like six o'clock in the morning. the first thought that went through my head was that guy must be rich. Yeah. It used to be that the person who was running, you think, they've know, time and they afford the flash running shoes and stuff. Now it's the guy walking around smoking. Yeah. I don't think that's unfair to say though, Mickey, because I think it's the difference between reasons and excuses.

01:27:14
There are reasons why, and we're all aware of them, there are reasons why certain people are far more disadvantaged, whether that be socially, economically, the psychosocial determinants of health is a massive factor. But on other hand, irrespective of where we're at now, we still have some personal responsibility. I'm not one these hustle and grind people who's like, it's all about the sweat off my own back and blah, blah, because we live in a society, so that's all very important.

01:27:44
But know, I see it a lot in the, in the realms of mental health and I'll only speak to an area that I can relate to very easily. I've seen a lot of people and some of them, prominent people in the fitness industry who have used the mental health conditions in particular bipolar disorder as an excuse for really bad behavior. Right. It's all, you know, it's just my bipolar coming out. It's kind of like, but dude, I've got bipolar and it doesn't make me racist.

01:28:12
It doesn't make me a sexual predator. You know, it doesn't make me misogynistic. No, it makes things more difficult sometimes, but we all have an ability to recognize the challenges we have and do our best to do the work we need to do to, live the lives we want to live. Not, not for anyone else, but just to have, you know, the lives we want to live. And I know from experience that if I wasn't sleeping well, I was allowing

01:28:42
the stressors to mount up where I could maybe avoid them or mitigate them, where I'm not eating well, where I'm not getting in that strength training, where I'm not being mobile, then my mental health would decline to the point where I probably wouldn't be a nice person to be around. Maybe I'm not a nice person to be around sometimes, but it would be far more than that, right? And so there is an element of personal responsibility and no one can ever, I think, refute that.

01:29:08
despite it being complex and despite us living in our whole environment and being affected by that, hey, there is some degree of autonomy that's really important too. And sometimes people don't think they have that autonomy actually. you know, that it's their mindset is they've got no choices actually. And which is something I don't agree with as well. What's about, you know, it's the fractal nature of it. And I think there's that, um

01:29:33
It's complex because we all have advantages and disadvantages. And I think it's really important to recognize both, you know, and that helps to break down some of the garbage around. Well, I just built everything off the sweat of my own back. Well, no, no, you didn't necessarily because you might've had privileges, advantages. You live in a good society, those types of things. However, did you also have challenges because of various things? Yes. And some people have more challenges. Some people have fewer. Um, but at the end of the day, again, you know, what are you going to do? Although I have disagreed with some of his

01:30:03
political staff have laid, I still really like the idea embodied by Jocko Willink of um extreme ownership. It's not your fault, but what you do is your responsibility. Easy message, right? And I think it makes sense. Nice one. I'm mindful of the time guys, but I do want to ask you just one last question, if that's all right. So you're doing an audit of your own life and there is

01:30:31
I know. And obviously there are things which, I mean, you guys are just, you know, healthy human beings, but if there is one thing which is your work on, what is that? Yeah. What is that? Like it might be a surprise to some people might not be, but something where you're like, you're doing something and you're like, eh it's sort of, haven't quite nailed that or I haven't quite dialed it in or this is a struggle. This is, I'm on a bit of a struggle bus with it. Or you sort of go through waves. Anything? Probably not, but. uh It's optimism. We've, my wife and I just,

01:31:01
recently made this sort of collective decision to just work a little harder on that. And we're certainly not negative Nellies by any stretch of the imagination, but by gosh, is it easy to latch onto anything, right? And have a bit of a whinge about it and it solves no purpose. um I'm literally sometimes the angry old man in the street waving his fist at young kids on these fricking electric dirt bikes. I hate them, right? I'm out walking with my dog and my little girl.

01:31:29
Um, and I realized I'm this close to like kicking one of them into traffic, which is not going to, is not going to come back on me very favorably. it? Um, but as it was one extreme example, it's, uh, you know, when did you know about the weather? When did you know about politics? Um, what someone did said acted, it doesn't, it doesn't matter. And if you, if we pull back a bit and we live at the beach, we can work remotely. Got a great life.

01:31:59
We holiday all the time. What are you know, there's so many fantastic things going on. But boy, it can get its hooks into you so quickly. You can switch from this life of privilege to. So, yeah, just, just try not to think negatively. Try not to speak negatively about anyone or anything. That's been our little one at the moment. That's, that's really cool. Mine's very similar. And the framing though is more for me.

01:32:30
It's a constant reminder to, to be present and to be intentional. You know, that can spring up in a whole bunch of different ways. It might be that, you know, you are distracted by something else, but especially with, with, you know, kids, you're distracted by something else. There's going to be a time in a few years when you're going to say, was so unimportant to be distracted by that, that work related thing or what that

01:32:58
person sit on social media or whatever when i could have been playing with that kit. I could have been spending time with my partner or just really not just spending time but actually enjoying the time right so it's the presence and along with that is that intentionality. I remember when i was on the radio years ago talking about one of my books which got a little bit of respect in the day. What are the things that i talked about a lot that people just.

01:33:24
Especially the radio DJs just didn't really seem to get, think they, tell in their eyes, they just thought this guy's talking some crap here. It was about that whole idea of when you're doing something, just remind yourself that you're doing it. What am I doing right now? I'm lifting, then lift. What am I doing right now? I'm with my kids, then be with your kids. You know, it seems like such a simple thing, but when we have that constant call to action to do it, we find that the richness of life is so much more enhanced.

01:33:53
Because if you're not right, if you're doing something, but you're thinking about that thing down the road or that thing you've got to do tomorrow or the fact that your bank account only has $2 and 37 cents like mine did when I came back from Canada broke, then you're not going to enjoy that time fully that you're experiencing. So that's really the thing. And in terms of health, it's more important than people think because it's the thing that means that at around lunchtime after I've had my lunch,

01:34:23
If I'm being present and intentional, I'm more likely to do my little meditation, which has a big crossover to the rest of my life. If I'm not like, I'm stressed, I've got to do all this stuff. I'm just going to launch straight into it. Then maybe that carries over to not having vegetables at dinner because I'll bugger it. had some at lunch. Then maybe that carries over into, I'm going to have a big chocolate milkshake after dinner because why not? You know, it's not that any of those things are wrong. And if I'm actually intentional about any of those things, they're also great.

01:34:53
but it's not coming from a place of presence and intention if it's just a resignation. It's interesting that point. Yeah, Cliff, like I know someone who is all about gratitude, but actually her whole energy is negative and it's very, she gets very fired up on really small things that you need to talk her off the cliff about. It just holds a lot of negative energy. And I just think from an absolute health perspective, if your nervous system is like that, holy cow, like.

01:35:23
And that actually speaks to both, actually both the optimism piece and the sort of being present thing, because if your nervous system is in that state and you're anxious and you're angry and you're negative, then you're obviously not present in the moment, right? And I think with the journey till now, which is sort of culminated in us jotting down a few ideas for this book, I think

01:35:51
I certainly realize and i think there is and i've talked about this a little bit in different terms before that a lot of when you younger. Or maybe if you haven't um really come to some degree of comfort. Within yourself a lot of what you doing is before whatever is not necessarily performative for others is performative yourself. You know like i is you guys know i've been meditating and doing yoga since i was a little kid because i saw my old man doing it.

01:36:18
But let's say in my 20s, it was very much about doing the meditation because I'm one step away from enlightenment. When I'm enlightened, I'm going to write great books and everyone's going to think I'm some kind of spiritual guru. I'm going to be awesome. Right. You come to a point where it's like, what the am I thinking about here? This is like not the reason to do it. It's not important. It's all just garbage. So what do you do then? You sit in stillness and that's it. That's enough.

01:36:45
Right? And when you can get to that point, think irrespective of the fact that any of us sitting here are completely imperfect and we fuck things up all the time and that's okay. But we're more comfortable in that position of knowing that we've got a lot of work to do and that's fine. Cause it's fun. Yeah. And you're just doing it with intention and presence. Nice. Yeah. And just to clarify to the listeners, none of us are actually sitting because we're all standing because this is what we do as our, uh,

01:37:15
Or is Desi sitting? Oh, Desi, you're sitting. I am sitting currently. It's this weird thing where if the standing desk goes up, it's up for months. And if it gets put down for any reason, it stays down for bloody months before I seem to get it back up again. You've got very good sitting posture because you do look like you're standing. I do try to. I'm just trying look as big as Cliff. Well, OK. So before we...

01:37:41
we let listeners know about your book. I'll let me rate you on your performance this morning, guys. I think Cliff has to take it because he has two pictures of me behind him in two different conferences. And there's Darren on the wall too. Where's Darren? Where? Where? Oh yes.

01:38:02
Did you arrange that just for this or is it always been that way? I love that. And Daz, you bought the big surprise to the party because I think this is the first time I've seen you in a non-tight t-shirt. Oh, still fills it out pretty well though. Interesting. Yes. Yeah. But I'm like, come on, Daz. Normally Daz is topless in a tank top or slightly tighter t-shirt, but hey.

01:38:31
You gorgeous regardless. I've tried to actively not portray that look so obviously I'm going to have to do a bit more work on it. mate, own it. if I was, how old are you? 50. If I was a 50 year old male with a bod like yours, honestly, I would, seriously I would, I'd be all about it.

01:38:53
If I were a 30 year old male with a bod like Darren's, I'd be all about it. Yeah, actually, to be fair. Anyway, sorry, sorry to embarrass you Darren. sorry Des. Not in the least, it's harder to embarrass me these days. I'll take that all as a compliment. Well, what I would love to see is a poster of both of you behind Cliff on a book tour for Awesome After 40, but I'll be a bit jealous because I wouldn't be part of that. So I don't know what we can do. Maybe I can manage you guys on tour.

01:39:22
How can people get a hold of Awesome After 40? They can find it at any major online retailer at the moment for pre-order. And after the 25th of November, it'll be available basically everywhere. at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Kindle, Kobo, and all other major outlets. You can also request it from your local bookstore or the library. That was a question I actually had for you, Cliff. It was a hard copy. I had a couple of questions around alternatives to Barnes & Noble.

01:39:52
for some of the local reasons. So there's going to be some options soon. Yep. And it's got full global distribution. So if for whatever reason people go into the bookstore and it's not there, they can just ask and the bookstore will get it in. No problems. I love it. And I'm hoping to rustle up a few for a giveaway for this podcast interview as well. Guys, let me know how, or let the listeners know how they can find you guys. Although you are like multiple repeat offenders on my podcast, but let them know just in case.

01:40:21
they are unaware. DarrenAlice.coach is the website and also my Instagram handle. Those are two places I'm hanging out. Wonderful. And people can find me at cliffharvey.com and that's got links to the Institute and all my socials and stuff. And your app, right? Yeah, which they can find at cliffharvey.com as well. They can find the coach by cliff app. Amazing. And Darren, do you have an app? uh I use an app. I'm currently working on my app.

01:40:50
But yeah, same thing, at the website there's links to programming and coaching that all is delivered in that fancy 21st century fashion. I love it. Amazing guys, I always love sitting down with you. Thank you so much for standing. Thanks so much for making the time and catch you soon. Thanks, Mike. Thanks, Mickey.

01:41:22
Alrighty, hopefully you enjoyed that as much as I enjoyed having that chat. Always so fun to catch up with those guys. And as I said, keep an eye out on social media as to where you can win yourself a copy of Awesome After 40 by Darren Ellis and Dr. Cliff Harvey. Next week on the podcast, we bring Brandon back for another episode based around his fat loss approach that he undertook this

01:41:50
North American summer and he took us through the structure of it, the strategies he used. This is really high level intervention and he's sharing with us his methods so you aren't going to want to miss that. Until then though you can catch me, Mikki, over on Instagram, threadsandx @mikkiwilliden Facebook @mikkiwillidenNutrition or head to my website mikkiwilliden.com, book a one-on-one call with me. Alright team, you have the best week. See you later.