Take the Last Bite

We take a bite out of local legislation with Minnesota State Representatives Liish Kozlowski (they/them) and Leigh Finke (she/her). We all have a role to play – but our roles aren’t all the same. We chat with these powerhouses about their motivations to run for office, their experiences on the legislative floor, and how Trans Refuge Bills can offer a pathway to improved living conditions for trans, nonbinary, two spirit, and intersex people.

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Host: R.B. Brooks, they/them, director of strategy and impact for the Midwest Institute for Sexuality and Gender Diversity
Cover art: Adrienne McCormick


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Creators & Guests

Host
R.B. Brooks
Director of Programs, Midwest Institute for Sexuality and Gender Diversity
Producer
Justin Drwencke
Executive Director, Midwest Institute for Sexuality and Gender Diversity

What is Take the Last Bite?

Take the Last Bite is a direct counter to the Midwest Nice mentality— highlighting advocacy & activism by queer/trans communities in the Midwest region. Each episode unearths the often disregarded and unacknowledged contributions of queer & trans folks to social change through interviews, casual conversations and reflections on Midwest queer time, space, and place.

For questions, comments and feedback: lastbite@sgdinstitute.org

To support this podcast and the Institute, please visit sgdinstitute.org/giving

Host: R.B. Brooks, they/them, director of programs for the Midwest Institute for Sexuality & Gender Diversity

Cover Art: Adrienne McCormick

RB:

Hey. Hi. Hello, y'all. This is RB, your Midwest scout leader, helping you along the way to retrieving your Midwestie bestie badge on Take the Last Bite. A show where we send Midwest nice on a hike and forget to pack it bug spray.

RB:

Today's episode is a throwback to our 7th annual transgender justice teach in, where we brought together trans, non binary, and 2 spirit elected officials who have a front row seat to the mess and complexity of legislative debates around trans lives. Much to the political rights chagrin, it is officially pride month, and a very queerly pride month to you all. I hope you set out your cookies and poppers for the Babadook on the eve of June 1st. If not, that's okay. You can try again in October for queer history month, but don't forget it.

RB:

Otherwise, you'll end up like George Santos, ostracized by both the Republicans and the homosexuals, desperately trying to stay relevant by making obscure cameo videos and waving an upside down American flag on the 1st day of pride month. Please, oh, please, don't be like George Santos. However you do choose to celebrate pride month this year, always remember that we are beholden to the incredible transcestors who've come before us and fought for queer and trans liberation. Of course, pride month is a prime time for joy, shenanigans, and community, but it's also an urgent time for organizing, taking much needed breaks, and being intentional in our collective efforts to continue bringing much needed change to our world and striving to achieve liberation for all. There's no pride in genocide, and our pride month is placed squarely in the context of numerous global struggles that require our attention and solidarity.

RB:

Today's chat includes 2 powerhouse individuals who are intimately aware of the interconnectedness between issues at home and issues across the globe. Minnesota State Representatives, Leish Kozlowski and Lee Finke graced us with their presence during the 7th annual transgender justice teach in this past December, to discuss their initial motivations to run for political office, Their experiences on the legislative floor. How they navigate their positions when anti trans and other oppressive legislation comes up. And how trans refuge bills can offer a pathway to improve living conditions for trans, non binary, 2 spirit, and intersex people. We grounded this discussion with 3 key acknowledgements.

RB:

1st, that regardless of where folks are tuning in, we are all impacted by continued impacts of colonization and the displacement of indigenous peoples. And that the work of trans liberation is deeply tied to projects of decolonization. Additionally, because this discussion was held amidst ongoing global struggle and unrest, we encourage listeners to track patterns and make connections across various movements and justice work being carried out in our current moment. And finally, the Midwest Institute For Sexuality and Gender Diversity, as a 501c3, cannot officially endorse political candidates, and therefore want to assert that we've engaged with these panelists based on their current roles as state representatives and that no way should our inclusion of them in this program be considered as an endorsement for any future campaigns. Chatting with Leish and Lee was incredibly enlightening and showcases how we all have a role to play in combating anti trans legislative attacks.

RB:

As you'll hear through our discussion, these folks are committed to that role and offer some infinite wisdom about what the power of community is capable of. Brush up on your Robert's Rules of Order for this episode of Take the Last Bite.

INTRO:

Why can't we be in space with 100 of other queer and trans folks and having these necessary conversations?

INTRO:

When it comes to dynamics around privilege and depression and around identity, well intentioned isn't actually good enough.

INTRO:

And how far is too far to drive for a drag show? I don't know. We're in Duluth right now. I would straight up go to

INTRO:

Nebraska, probably. If you are not vibing or something's not right or also, like, there's an irreparable rupture, you have absolutely every right to walk away.

INTRO:

Definitely gonna talk about Midwest Nice. And if that's if that's, as real as it wants to think it is. Midwest Nice is white aggression. Aggression. That's what it is.

RB:

So I think we're ready to get into it, which makes me really happy and excited, because this has been a I'd say a long time coming, but just, like, I've been really hyped about this this being the focus of this conversation for many months when I was like, what are we gonna focus on? This this is what we're gonna do. So, Leish and Lee, thank you oh so much again for carving out some time in your obscurely busy schedules to have this conversation. I'm really jazzed to bring you both in conversation, especially since you're already very connected and are doing some, you know, collaborative and coconspiratorial work, in the state house. So, why don't we start off with some introductions, however you wanna frame that.

RB:

So who are you? What are you up to? And anything else you'd like to share with folks tuning in today?

Leigh:

So thank you, RB, so much for the invitation. I'm so grateful to be here with you and, with my coconspirator at the Capitol, Leish Kozlovski. It's a real honor. Yeah. So, my name is Lee Finke.

Leigh:

I'm the representative from District 66 a. I live in Saint Paul, in the Midway neighborhood, and I represent a portion of Saint Paul, a portion of Roseville, as well as Stockton Heights and Lauderdale. My background is in activism and journalism and documentary filmmaking. Before I was elected, I was working for ACLU of Minnesota. Before that, I was doing a lot of media production and journalism, covering social the intersection of social justice and pop culture.

Leigh:

I did a lot of coverage of the Black Lives Matter movement in the Twin Cities as well as, around the country. Trans and LGBTQ activism and other issues around there. So, yeah, that's a little about me. I could talk a lot more. I've got a couple kids.

Leigh:

I am, you know, very happily trans and, thriving, in in Minnesota.

Liish:

Cool. Hey, everybody. Anakwad, McKissian, and, Neesh Maniduwag. My English name is Leish Kozlowski. I guess you could say I'm a person of many names and identities.

Liish:

Mostly go by Leish these days, but, my real name is Yellow Cloud. And, also, I've got a pretty cool name in Ojibwe, which is Nikigoons, which is little otter, because we gotta have fun and, also work work and play hard too. And I'm Eagle Clan. I hail from the Grand Portage and Fond du Lac Reservation, so proud Ojibwe. And then also super proud to be Mexican American as well.

Liish:

I come to this work as, first of all, 2 spirit and digi queer, trans, non binary, whatever name we put up to, but, that's, how we refer to ourselves as 2 spirit. We're the people that came from the stars. And I also get to live up here in Duluth, with amazing human here and get to do this great work at the capital with my partner in Justice in rep Lee Finke, who I adore, and I am so grateful for coming to this work. There's never been a person that has been trans, non binary, or, BIPOC, that combination for Greater Minnesota. There's one other representative who's been at the Capitol holding it down and rep Heather Keeler, but we're closer to the cities than we are to each other.

Liish:

So this work, I'm often reminded that we're we're never alone and that, we might be the first, but we're just out here clearing the elbow space for many more to come. I came to this work, I guess, as, a kid that grew up literally in the streets, you know, bouncing from house to house, and I was mostly raised by my Ojibwe grandmother, who taught me from a really young age that for us as 2 spirit people, as, Ojibwe people that, our identities, is really comes down to what's our role and what are our gifts and our strengths versus any gender or sexual or orientation. And she was a fierce leader in education equity. So that's been a lot of the work that I've been fortunate to step into as the vice chair of the Posse Caucus. We can dig into that more about what the work that we've done across queer and posse, communities, but really working to, bridge those gaps out of my own lived experiences around housing, economic development.

Liish:

I came into this work as a MBA holder, and really believing that we don't have to give up our identities, any part of our selves. We're whole as human beings, and we're the sum of ourselves. And that's what makes our raddest version. So really grateful to be here.

RB:

What a dope way to, like, invoke and carry a scene. Like, thank you. So let's, let's go kind of a step in, a direction of kind of getting a sense of what motivated you to run for your elected position. I think those stories are always very, interesting because oftentimes, you know, generally speaking, there's a common narrative of, marginalized and disenfranchised folks who don't always feel like they ever felt like, anticipated they would run for office, and then they they end up here anyway. So let's talk about some of those origin stories too as part of, kind of getting to know y'all.

Leigh:

I can go ahead if that's alright. Leish, do you wanna

Liish:

take a Either.

Leigh:

Yeah. Who cares? Alright. Go ahead, Leish.

Liish:

Okay. Cool. Well yeah. I mean, I thought about this a lot, and I was joking with y'all yesterday that we were prepping that I got some stories. Right?

Liish:

And for me, when I really, like, sat down and closed my eyes long before getting into any of this work. It was as a kid, growing up in Duluth. Here, there's, I grew up in the West End neighborhood, and that's like, the poorest. It's where, like, the most black and brown folks are at. Right?

Liish:

It's where all the statistics are. And I remember standing there in spaces as a kid, like, in the liquor store, in the bar, and in that window was, like, a glass window and shown the through the darkness, like, the light would come through. And I remember standing there being like, if there's something inside of me that is being drawn to say, like, I'm gonna make this cycle different. Right? And that carried me through throughout my life.

Liish:

And my Ojibwe name is Yellow Cloud, and it it literally means a person that, like, would go ahead envision forward a a hope for better tomorrows. And so throughout my whole life, growing up, I think a lot of it was like this sort of evolution of my own racial and cultural identities. And then peeling back those layers, like deconstructing who the world, like, told me that I am or who I can and cannot be. And so growing up watching my fierce Ojibwe grandmother in the streets and making calls and showing up at every board meeting with, her friends, and it was always about native sovereignty and black liberation. And, that our justice, it is the fight and it is it needs to be the same fight like that solidarity in action.

Liish:

And as I went on in high school and then college, I was I kept being the first, like, the first one to make it, and you're kinda constantly always being, like, discredited and, like, oh, you'll never make it. Like, you're just gonna be housekeeper. You're gonna end up on, you know, selling drugs. And so I kind of always, like, being undervalued. And I just everywhere I went kept digging into this connection and into our ceremonies and into our people.

Liish:

And our elders would always, like, whisper when they see me, like, whisper into my ear. They say, like, you are loved. You're sacred. Keep going. K.

Liish:

Go when to when k on. And that's like a a command, like, don't ever stop. And so when I go into these education spaces, graduate, get my MBA, and then I actually was a runner and that was, like, the big thing that was the outlet for me. So I love I love ultra running. And we formed what's called Quaypack, which, you know, Ojibwe is, it's like a women's running group, but now we call it Daypack, which is kinda fun.

Liish:

Right? And we started running, you know, 5 k's became, 25 k's became a marathon, became 50, a 100 milers, became, so much more than just the running, but for our community to have this affinity space to say, like, hey. If you can run and you can do this, like, we could go and we could get a better job. We could get a promotion. We could get into that master's degree.

Liish:

We could get, you know, your kid back. And our tribal community started literally prescribing us as, like, medicine. Like, oh, you're anxious or, like, you got something going on. Go run with that group. And then it became like, well, yeah, why why wouldn't I why not us?

Liish:

Like, why not me? And so when the opportunity came, and it was at just a couple of years before that, Charice Davids and Deb Holland and Peggy Flanagan. And Deb Holland and Peggy Flanagan, of course, being the highest ranking native people. Charice Davids is the first, native and indigiqueer person at the congressional level, and I met, her the week that she took office. And, like, I'll never forget Sheree saying to me, like, we have everybody in the world who has the data.

Liish:

They got the numbers. They can, you know, write the budgets. They can do this and that. And that's really important. We need scientists.

Liish:

We need all of this. But what we need is people like you and me who have our stories and who have our cultural strengths and who have our gifts and who are gonna bring our people and make sure that our people who haven't been heard for a long time because we get all these politicians, but they're not listening up. We need you. And that was the moment that for me, I think I felt my body step into my 2 spiritness, but then also step into my power, and say, I'm gonna I'm gonna go for this. So that's like a snippet.

Liish:

There's so much more. But, I I think it's really important that we have those people who who go ahead, who show us what what can be, and clear clear that space and show us that 2 spirit people, that a digit queer people, that trans folks, that were medicine, that our gifts, are needed every single place.

Leigh:

That was amazing, Leish. I'm so glad that you're here. Yeah. So I just a little bit about how I got here. I mean, I never I never planned to run for office.

Leigh:

That was never part of my trajectory. Like I said, I come from activism. I got involved seriously in activism in 2003 when I was in college, and we were organizing against the Iraq war. That was when the first time I sort of organized in coalition in the streets doing work on a national movement that, I'm just kind of hooked in after that. So I was always kind of engaged in politics, but always from the activism space and never from the I should run for office space.

Leigh:

But, fast forward to the 20 16 election and afterwards when we have, it was really 2017 when we saw the North Carolina bathroom bill start getting the national attention. And then since then, you know, and the slow up rolling of the national coordinated anti trans movement, and it got really scary. It still is. And I was a trans person working at the ACLU, nervous about the future. And so I just started talking to people in my community in Saint Paul about how we get trans people into our government.

Leigh:

We had elected 2 trans people to the Minneapolis City Council, in 16, 1 in 16, 1 in 17, and we needed to keep doing that. That that was incredible. 2 black trans elected. It's the first 2 black trans elected in the country. And as I was talking to people about whether or not we were going to be able to bring somebody into the the state government, some you know, a couple times people would say, well, like, you should run.

Leigh:

You know? And I was like, well, I can't run. I live in Saint Paul. I'm represented by Athena Hollins, who is bomb, and I'm not gonna challenge. You know?

Leigh:

I'm not gonna run against Athena Hollins or senator John Markey. He's been there for 30 years and is a beloved figure in Saint Paul politics. Right? Like, there's no there's simply no seat to run for. So it wasn't really an option, and I didn't really let myself consider it seriously because of that.

Leigh:

So I just organized with people, and I talked, started talking to people, and we started trying to figure out a way to make it happen. But always with that thought in the back of my mind, like, I would if if the opportunity was there and somebody needed to do it, I would I would do it. I just didn't see how it was going to be an opportunity. So fast forward to redistricting, 2022. So it's February 2022, and the re just the new maps come out.

Leigh:

And the new maps just kind of spooched one of the lines over, like, literally, I think, 2 o'clock, and it moved me into a different district. And then that that district had a 17 term, incumbent house member named Alice Hausman who was retiring. So I was in a new district, and that district did not have an incumbent, so I wouldn't have to primary somebody. So my city council member said called me and was like, you've been trying to get somebody to run for office. You now have a seat to run for.

Leigh:

Like, she said, no more talking. You just fucking do it. You know? You said it. You gotta fucking do it.

Leigh:

So I was like, alright. She just she said it. So I had 5 weeks after I got into the race until our convention in in Minnesota politics. We have local conventions, endorsing conventions, and they're a very big deal. And we organize like crazy and, yeah, managed to the person who was expected, the recruited sort of DFL candidate, by just being you know, I'm I'm an organizer at heart, and we organize like crazy.

Leigh:

And we took the opportunity, and people were supportive and ready and recognized the need for trans representation and recognized the intersectional value of trans representation. And we did a lot of work convincing a lot of people. A lot of people needed convincing that a trans person could represent them if they're not trans, which is always crazy because I have never been represented by a trans person. And somehow I've maintained satisfying ability to live in a society. But yeah.

Leigh:

So that's kinda how I got here. The seat the seat came to me, and I ran for it and won.

RB:

I love just, like, the 2 two block scoops, like, that just, like, literally opened that up for you. That's wild.

Leigh:

Yes.

RB:

I also appreciate the theme too kind of what I hear from both of your stories, many themes. But one in particular, I think, is just like the the kind of, like, periphery of people kind of, like, scooting you along in general. Right? Like, the pull asides from, like, elders or just kind of the the folks hyping you up and being like, okay. Like, you've been talking about it.

RB:

Like, let's go. Right? Just kind of I think naming that as a way to say that just, like, yes, y'all's names were on the ballot, and y'all's names, you know, are the ones that are, you know, as the representatives. But, like, that there's there's already even by the time you decided to to run-in campaign, that there's already this kind of body of people who are in your corner and these hype people. But then in addition to kind of what you're saying, Lee, though, is that, like, there also is levels of convincing, which I think is is what I'm hearing a lot of common narrative around with folks, marginalized folks, especially, who've ran of just, like, it's not as simple, as kind of, you know, our cishet white dominant counterparts where it's just like, well, duh.

RB:

Like, that's the that's the type of person who runs. Like, the amount of convincing and labor that I think comes with, comes with that. I know, Alicia, I feel like I don't know if this is the place. I know you had, yesterday. You're you're, like, unmuted.

RB:

Like, yes. I know exactly where this is going. Just kind of like I have something to say. Yes. I knew.

RB:

I was like, this I didn't mean to set this up, but it's right here. It's it's it's set set up perfectly. It was just kind of the the additional barriers and just kind of the additional discouragement that, you know, LGBTQ folks, black and brown folks, just like marginalized folks in general experience even with the thought, of running or, you know, being being part of electoral politics in general. I know you had I had some feels, that you wanted to name or some, you know, insight on

Liish:

that. And I think, like, you know, Lee, you mentioned this of, like, the idea of, like, how do you how could you possibly represent us and at at a time where we could get you know there was a report out about the number of we're and then you add in the the layers of folks with disabilities with, other undervalued identities. And if we are gonna have a inclusive multiracial representative democracy, then that means that we need to be in these seats with the gavels and the microphones. Right? And the decision making and the ability to disrupt and to manage the purse strings.

Liish:

And I remember when I was going along on the the campaign trail, it's almost like, the sense of you need to apologize for winning. I walked around this community sort of like, you know, being somebody who's like got all the the qualifications. And everybody always wants me to lead with, like, to make sure you tell everybody that you've got an MBA. Make sure that you tell people that, you know, you've got these years of executive experience at a city. Make sure that they know these things.

Liish:

When in reality, you run for office. What the all the qualification you really need is your lived experience. But we know that we need to work 10 times harder, just to be able to show, or to, like, appease, you know, oftentimes white cisgendered folks. When I was out door knocking and it entails lots of lots of process, and you get a team together. And and, part of that was, like, right, building out the bench of folks to bring into these spaces, which have us boxed out not just as candidates, but, along the entire kind of campaign process into being elected and beyond.

Liish:

But, I was knocking one day, and an elected official said, well, we don't we don't need any more women. We've got a lot of those. And I said, well, one, I was like, that's actually not true and great. I'm not a woman. I said, you know, I'm trans, non binary, 2 spirit.

Liish:

And they said, well, yeah, we have a lot of those at the capitol. We don't we don't need any more of those. And I said, what's funny is I'd actually be the very first ever in Minnesota history. And and then they pause and they sort of were like, well, what impact does that have on my life? And, you know, this is somebody who is overseeing education of our children and budgets and, curriculum development and our and our teachers and and so many things.

Liish:

And and I just think, like, that to me just was so evident of the barriers and the misperceptions and, like, you're not enoughness in this space. And then I on the back end of coming off of the most, like, amazing trifecta session where I think I know me and Lee, we got so many bills then we delivered so big for our districts, and we did the hard yards for racial justice and gender equity and, right, all of these areas. And to come home and to be met with, Well, but how does that benefit us? And, so, yeah, it's it's a lot of unpacking and breaking down those isms and, we're really building in and building out our power, because there's a lot of people with us. And thankfully, those folks have been few and far between, but but they're there.

RB:

I think this this segues well into, kind of the next question that we wanted to talk into, which is, like like a 15 part question, but ultimately, right, like, talked about your motivations to run. Obviously, those motivations manifest into a successful campaign and being elected into your, position. So, I think the the gist of the question, right, is just like, what have been kind of some some learning curves, some, like, shocking moments, like, just kind of, like, the more specifically, like, experiences of just, like, being in this space. And being in this space is, like, trans, non binary, 2 spirit people. Right?

RB:

Just, like, coexisting in a space that ultimately kind of captured in the point you just made, Leish, that, like, doesn't really know what to do with us and doesn't really know how to, like, accommodate us. So just, like, what have been just some, like, moments, just kind of in this, you know, last year of being in this space and doing this work with your various experiences and identities?

Leigh:

I mean, I can start on that. I think that, you know, I came in from the first trans woman who served in our in our government, in our state government, and there was a lot of excitement. There was a lot of support. Our campaign garnered a lot of attention. When I was elected, I got a lot of, you know, first trans, coverage.

Leigh:

And, you know, it did set up like I said, prior, I I'm an organizer by heart. I wanna do the work. I immediately started thinking about how can we use any of this attention in order to successfully build a movement at the Capitol for trans people, which I consider to be my, that's my job. Right? Like Leish was saying, like, we are the first ones here, and the work we are doing is benefiting everyone whether or not those people realize it.

Leigh:

So I give myself the space to say I am here to help trans people, and I know that flows upward. All liberation flows outward. So it was like, what do we do with this attention in this moment? And, you know, one of the one of the moments that I remember will remember. So there's a lot.

Leigh:

I mean, this is like you said, this could be a whole night's worth of conversation, but, you know, I brought the trans refuge bill. That was immediately where I started organizing. I figured I determined it to be the most impactful sort of first bill for us to you, a commitment that we would make. And it was the first bill that was ever heard of the Minnesota legislature that was positive for trans people. We've had anti trans bills introduced.

Leigh:

We haven't passed any because we've had divided government. But what no one's ever tried to pass a bill that was, like, let's help trans people live. So we did that, and we had our first hearing in the judiciary committee. And, chair Becker finn, you know, created a space. You know, she was instrumental on the success of this bill, member of the Queer Caucus and the Native Caucus.

Leigh:

And, you know, when she gaveled that in, you know, we put up a call and we said, hey. We're gonna hear this bill. It's the first bill, and I would really like to have people come out and be in the room. Like, come be in the room. This is a historic moment.

Leigh:

And it was just a judiciary hearing, you know, and the room was just full. It was absolutely full of trans people. I am a 100% sure that to that point, it was the most trans people that had ever been at the capitol. I think we broke it a couple times that that year because we just kept doing work. You know?

Leigh:

The Trans Day visibility rally was really, really, really remarkable. I mean, that to me was one of the highlights. But but what I cons one of the things that I consider to be a special power of being in the offices that we hold is that we have the power to convene. Right? We can say to people, this is happening.

Leigh:

You should be here. We should be in this room. I am in this room. I am in this room with Leish, and we belong here, and you belong here. And now you can see yourself at the table.

Leigh:

And when we have made that invitation, you know, people have responded. People have been waiting for an invitation. Everybody wants to be seen and felt and participating in that. And, you know, that was maybe 2 weeks into the first session, and and it was just, like, really overpowering. It was a really overpowering moment, and I held on to it as we went through.

Leigh:

And I think we'll talk about some of the more policy debates, as we go, and I can talk about some of the horrible things. But this is something that I thought about as as we went into some of the later debates where, you know, it was really hard. You know? And and we were I mean, even in that first room, we heard terrible things, and my our community had to listen. But when you're all there together, there is power there.

Leigh:

You know? And it and it makes it different, and it feels different, and it meant something to the community. You know? And I think it showed them at least in terms of the trans refuge bill that, like, this work was gonna happen. People were interested.

Leigh:

People were here. The leadership had to take it seriously after that. You know, nobody was it wasn't on anyone's radar to move trans refuge. It happened because Alicia and I and the other LGBTQ members who were elected forced it. And we said, you're gonna have to pay attention to us.

Leigh:

And that wouldn't have happened if everybody hadn't come out and said, we're here for this, and we need to see it happen. And and that I mean, that was a really positive and powerful moment that I'll I will always remember, especially because there were so many really hard, hard moments, which I can talk about if we wanna talk about hard things.

Liish:

Yeah. It just listening to you, it is flashing me back to the capital, which is, to some of their beautiful things. It's it's a mixed bag, but I, you know, I'm I am immediately fast back to actually, when I worked at the city of Duluth and then when I launched at the state, my big cousin, Peggy Flanagan, told me this is a place where, you know, our spirits go to get eaten, and you need to do every single thing that you possibly can to tend to your fire, to tend to, and be a good relative to everybody else's fire, because we need you in this work. And so going into these spaces where that is how I start my days at the capitol, and I know we we have smudged together and used medicine, and it's always in the hallways because because we need it and because I think this joy and this goodness, is ultimately, like, the antidote in a space that was not only not designed for us, certainly not designed for black and brown folks and not even a thought in the world to trans and gender, nonconforming folks. Every day we go into a capital, room that has an image of Abraham Lincoln, which, for anybody who isn't aware, Abraham Lincoln killed the most native people, in the history of the United States as a president.

Liish:

So there's also an image of, like, this settler colonials that, my desk faces, and it's something about, like, the fair maiden settlers, who created the state. You know? It's sort of and then this, like, demure looking native woman who's just sort of like, take our land and our lives. Right? And so that's the context in the backdrop of which we do this work.

Liish:

And so, yeah, trans day of visibility. What a beautiful day. I also think, like, at the same time as we had all this anti trans and anti LGBTQ legislation, we were also waiting on, ICWA in Minnesota. We have the Minnesota Family Indian Preservation Act. And so just sort of like our bodies and our spirits and our communities, you could just feel it, this edginess of, like, what's gonna happen?

Liish:

What next bad thing is gonna happen? Right? And we started out the session with the round dance, which was the first time ever that, the state government allowed us to have our drum, which is the heartbeat of the people. And so to start off our very first day with a drum and a round dance, and then to flash forward just a short time after to fill that same rotunda, with our people and to have our expression and our joy and our celebration, that flowed into, in the senate side when we heard the trans refuge bill, it was the exact same day that we were hearing the MIFPA, Equaville. And so the tribal leaders were actually in the room.

Liish:

So you had indigenous people, indigiqueer, filling the room at the same time as all of us trans folks were in there. And, with the boarding schools and the history of Christian, like, colonial violence, it's actually trans and 2 spirit people that they plucked from our communities first. And so I think the fact that like Lee and me ended up at the Capitol being called at the same time that we called our communities and convened us was absolutely, like, magical and amazing and, something that will be doing good for generations to come.

RB:

There's, like, a shiver trying to work its way. I don't know if it's up my spine down, but it's doing something. Just thinking just thinking about, like, energy and physical space and just, like, disrupting, like, the complacent energy of just, like, what has historically always been, you know, the dominant representation of who is in electoral politics, who's represented, who's not, is just really significant and, like, I'm low key experiencing some FOMO that I haven't been in those spaces, so I feel like I need change that in the inevitable future. So, like, send me a text message when the next, like, big rally of, like, trans folks hanging out at the capital, I guess. Who?

RB:

This is a little sidebar, I think, but I feel like I'm I sidebar in terms of this is not prepped, but I I feel like I'm also mindful that, this feels like a maybe a growing wave or trend of kind of just, like, folks with less conventional backgrounds of in terms of who ends up in political office. Right? Like activism backgrounds, you know, like, very deeply rooted embodied community work, right, organizing, etcetera, that both of you spoken to. And so I'm thinking too about, like, just, again, this trend that feels like it's happening of, like, state, state representatives, being more bold and audacious than perhaps we've seen, you know, ever. Right?

RB:

I think about, Montana state rep, rep Zoe. I don't know if it's Zephyr or Zephyr. I don't. I've, who just, like, got put on blast for just literally to show up and participate. If folks aren't familiar with, like, that background, like, I highly encourage looking that into that.

RB:

Right? Just, like, literally being pushed off the floor and not able to participate in discussion on bills, regarding trans experiences because of, you know, her audacity and her risk, but trying to advocate on behalf of her constituents. I'm reminded of the Tennessee 3, the 2, black, state representatives, and the additional, woman who got ousted again for being audacious and taking risk, and then being removed from their seats, which caused quite the stir. I I think there's also a a representative in Oklahoma who's definitely gotten some just, like, asinine treatment, but just, like, this is not specific to just, you know, one area. Right?

RB:

We're talking about Minnesota today that happens to be where we're situated. But that there seems to be this trend that I don't know there might be a question in here of just, like, kind of speaking to, like, is this what the next wave of especially localized politics looks like or can look like, in terms of what you're seeing from colleagues, what maybe you're seeing folks motivated to do, and if this is just like a vibe that's gonna carry into kind of, you know, upcoming years of policy action and activism. I think there's a question in there. Just kind of I feel like there's a lot of through lines between some of the experiences you're naming of disrupting. But from the standpoint of folks who, like, got elected, and you're you're now allowed and supposed to be here because you you did the work to get there.

RB:

Yeah. I

Leigh:

can start on this if that's alright. 1st, I wanna thank you for shouting out our members around the country. And you mentioned, but, there is a black, non binary, Muslim representative, Maury Turner, who you made reference to from Oklahoma, who was censored and very badly mistreated by their colleagues. And that is that is true of a lot of people. And I think I mean, I will speak specifically to Minnesota because I I only wanna speak from my own experience, but I do believe that there is so I think I have 2 I think that about this in two ways.

Leigh:

Right? Because right now, you're right. Right? The the trifecta class of people who were elected last year, like, we are coming in and we're playing for keeps, and we're not taking, you know, we're not waiting. We're not doing the thing.

Leigh:

Right? Where, like, you wait your turn. You serve a couple terms. You get some power. You get a gavel.

Leigh:

You run your committee, and then you start to make changes. Like, we don't have time for that. Alicia and I, we we sit next to each other on the house floor, and we immediately were like, alright. Let's organize. Let's accumulate power.

Leigh:

Let's distribute it. Right? Like, let's figure out how we're supposed to do this because we only have this, like, chance, and we don't know how long it's gonna last. And that's not unique to us. You know?

Leigh:

I mean, it's I think one of the things that Leisha and I are realizing and and and that does give us power, frankly, is that our communities have targets on us. And by occupying that space at all, we are able we are able to claim power. And it is, like, what politics is about. A lot of us have a hard time with that word. I know I have never been a person who's like, I want to accumulate power.

Leigh:

But that's how we do it. We just wanna do it for good and distribute it towards something that has meaning for our people. And so, yes, I do identify that, but I also think for me personally, I am really important to just recognize that, like, this is the moment when trans people need, you know, this is the moment when trans people need to be able to occupy that space and claim that power for our community so we can live and not die. That's basically the the stakes. But that has been happening.

Leigh:

You know? That has been happening, and it has has been undocumented people, and it has been people with HIV, and it has been, gay rights activists and and civil rights activists. You know? Like, we have of Rabel Rogers at the Minnesota House right now, and I'm really proud to be a part of them. And we're, you know, we're not even close to what we were seeing in the sixties, you know, when people were getting elected and and raising hell, you know, because the time that you are in calls for you to act accordingly.

Leigh:

And our times are severe, and they are dangerous. But in this country, that is not unique. That is just it's just this moment that it's our community.

Liish:

Yeah. Well, I mean, that was so powerfully said, and, I resonate so much. So gripping, like, in the throes of it. You know, it's sort of that whole notion power doesn't concede anything without a demand. Right?

Liish:

That also with each generation, like, it's on us to continue to fight for our rights. And I think back to what what kinda gives me, like, a lot of hope and some, like, field audacity is to think back, like, I was talking about to my grandparents. And, you know, Lee and I come to this work through movement politics and organizing and activism and getting into a lot of good trouble and to go back and to think in those moments where it feels inevitable. Right? Where it feels like it's an impossibility for us to make progress, or we're just, like, holding on to what we have.

Liish:

How could we keep fighting for more? Or what if the work that we do, we do all this amazing work, and then the next crew comes in and they just dismantle it. But that's how systems of power and oppression and colonial violence want to keep us feeling there. And so that's why in this work being so committed to, like, Miriam Kabe says, like, hope is a practice. Right?

Liish:

Like, hope in action, and and I come from a people who we're we're praying folks to Armani Dew, but it's with our hands and with our feet. And so what we have right now is we have one one more year. We're in the first we just finished our 1st year of our 2nd terms. And I think what you spoke of, like, this group of people who are led within by community to have, you know, not power over, to not feel but to, have power with and for. And that's what it is that, our communities that my elders, that our young people remind us every day that, it might be the title that got us into the room, but it's the people who put us there.

Liish:

And it's our purpose, and it's those values that is the mandate for what we need to keep doing. And so thinking back to, sort of like this framework, in, I mean, apparently in a very Ojibwe centric mode today. But, you know, like, reframing and shaping our, which is like a framework of love and how we get back to deconstructing these gender binaries, right, to deconstruct this separation, this othering of ourselves and our existence and find our ways back home to ourselves and to each other into this land. And I think that's the work that's at hand and that's the work that I'm committed to, very deeply. And I know that, this class of trifecta majority makers are too with this community that, our families don't have time to wait.

Liish:

You know? Savannah Grey Wind to Savannah Williams, they didn't have time. And so we just have to keep pressing on, and because it's our hands that are out here doing the the work. We're driving buses. That's our communities is out here who are taking care of our babies and our elders in the hospitals.

Liish:

Like, it's our trans and queer communities who are out there, making sure that our communities are fed. And so I think, like, continuing to assert our the impact and the contributions and who we are and reminding each other of that, is is the way forward. And, we're gonna get there.

RB:

Word. I'm gonna even pivot. So I so I don't know why I visited the Trans Refuge Bill. I feel like this is good, like, kind of, like, oh, this is a, like, a literal tangible, like, representation of some of the the hard work, the heavy work, the timeliness work that you're speaking on both of you are speaking on. So I, one, can we just start kind of with just like a overview of, like, what the bill entails.

RB:

Right? What what it's about? And then I knew it was, you know, not as simple as, like, here's the bill, and everyone passed it. And hooray. We're all happy.

RB:

I know that's not what happened. So I definitely wanna, like, touch on, like, what it is, what it's, you know, where it came from, how that how that made its way across the finish line, and just kinda like some futurity thoughts about just, like, you know, what else can be stacked on that to kind of keep the momentum of that big win?

Liish:

I feel like this is your big one, Lee. Do you wanna start?

Leigh:

Yeah. I feel like I started the last one, but yeah. I mean, I was the primary author of the Trans Refuge Bill, so I'm happy to talk about what the Trans Refuge Bill does. It is so, I mean, first, as I said, like, the trans refuge bill was the one that I decided I mean, as a community, we put together our priorities. Right?

Leigh:

But, like, this one, it was just like it felt like the one to lead the the the new day here with, because it is a promise to protect people. And when you make a promise to protect people, you can't stop protecting people. Right? Like, if you have children, you know that, like, by agreeing to protect someone, you have to do that every day. You know?

Leigh:

You can't not continue to do that work. So when we get to the second part, like, the reason, that the TransRifield took that central role, was because it was a statement, but it was also a promise. What the bill does essentially is it creates a shield around Minnesota, and it says if you want to access gender affirming care, and you live in a state that has either banned or restricted gender affirming care, you can come into the state of Minnesota, access your health care, and the state of Minnesota will protect you and protect your, health care records from any negative legal consequence outside of the state of Minnesota. So we introduced it right at the beginning of the year. At the time, like, 11 states had, enacted to restrict or ban gender affirming care for minors and vulnerable adults is the phrase that they use.

Leigh:

That's not, of course, the point. The point is just to ban gender affirming care for everyone as Texas and Florida both have essentially accomplished, and other states have, gotten close. The bill also allows for minors who are in custody disputes to be able to have their custody disputes heard in the state of Minnesota. If they are seeking to have health care provided in Minnesota, it does not as certain trolls and trollish colleagues of ours have said, require anyone to have gender affirming care. It just says this is one of the options if you live in the state of Minnesota.

Leigh:

And if you live in a state where there is simply zero option option for accessing care, then that case can be heard here. And one of the options for a family court would be to proceed with health care, life saving, medically responsible health care. Yeah. So that's sort of what it does. It doesn't actually have any health care provisions.

Leigh:

It's really just a judiciary court, related bill. Yeah. I mean, in terms of, like, what we did to get it passed like I said before, a a representative Becker finn was essential. You know, she helped me get this bill drafted before we even got into the legislature last year. So because I had no idea what I was doing.

Leigh:

I didn't know the the literal process. So she piggybacked me, mentored me through that process, mentored me through the committee process because she was the chair, and I was in her committee. And then it was just bringing people in to talk about why it matters, what the reality of the threat against trans people is in America, and talking to our colleagues, our colleagues who don't know trans people, don't know what gender affirming care is, don't know thank you, dear. Don't know, anything. I mean, it just by by way of ignorance, not even, you know, cruelty.

Leigh:

Right? So we had Felicia and I and the the whole queer caucus had a lot of education that we had to do, around what this means, what this does, what this doesn't do. And and then I just ended up sitting in the caucus room kind of 1 by 1 talking to the members about what it was gonna look like, what they were gonna say. One of the one of the members had a radio one of the Republicans did a radio interview in which they referred to the trans refuge bill as the kidnapping and mutilation bill, which is very, terrible. Right?

Leigh:

The word mutilation actually is kind of a triggering word for me now after after last session. I don't like to hear it or see it. That got a lot of traction. Right? So then Democrats would get emails that would be, like, stop the kidnapping and mutilation bill.

Leigh:

And then they would come to me and say, like, what's this kidnapping bill? You know? What are they talking about? If they knew I didn't have a kidnapping bill, but they didn't know anything about the legislation other than someone had sent them an email about this. So it was a lot of education.

Leigh:

It was a lot of patient work, you know, talking to leadership, telling the speaker we can pass this. I know it's important. We must do it. We can pass it. And then she would say, well, if you have the votes, we can vote on it.

Leigh:

You know? I mean, they weren't doing the work for us. It wasn't a priority. It was our ability to organize the caucus. And absolutely elemental to our ability to organize the caucus was the support of the lieutenant governor, Peggy Flanagan, who was an extremely vocal, ally of the trans community, became very dear organizing partner to me in this process and brought the governor, with her.

Leigh:

And they were willing to really, really go to the bat for us with members who needed those calls. So that's how that's kind of the gist of it. Leish, please fill in anything else. There's so much I could say about this bill process. So I'll just slap that.

Liish:

Yeah. There's so much and just, like, so grateful to have, our fearless queer caucus chair championing and there there it really is. It's like a a snowplow. Like, you're constantly plowing, like, 5 rows at the same time because you're you're, pushing on the senate, in the house, at the governor, in the executive level. At the same time, getting all these messages from community.

Liish:

And then we're bringing community in. And the the the thing that, was also really striking and important, I think a momentum shift and also could have been a hiccup roadblock was when governor Walz actually did the, is that the proclamation for trans refuge. And it was incredible and amazing, and put these protections in place. And it and it could have been a moment where it was like, take a breath and alright. Now they're appeased.

Liish:

Right? Like, we're good. We did the thing, but staying crystal clear that, no, this needs to be in law, codified right, set in stone. And on the night that Trans Refuge passed, gosh, you know, there was a lot of, as Rep Finke mentioned, like, really pushing to get this bill so it's actually in the limelight. It has its moment.

Liish:

It's gonna pass on the house floor. And I don't remember what time we started the bill, but, what, around, like, 8, 9. It was pretty late at night, and it was sort of like, oh, let's just you know, we'll we'll kick this down the road and and just looking like, no. This will not we're gonna do this today. And then all hours of the night, was, like, 3, 4 AM, and our eyes are, like, red.

Liish:

And we're looking up, and we see our trans community, 2 spirit folks filling the, the house galley. We know that folks are chiming in. They're messaging. They're watching online. They're setting their alarms to get back up and see what happened.

Liish:

And there was a moment where it was like, oh, we'll just come back and finish this later. And, absolutely, we did not let that happen. I think we would have just, like, about screamed, because we went there and we were not gonna go and hear all the crap that we heard. Like, can can we talk about, like, how weird people are, like, the obsession? Pretty strange.

Liish:

It's like, well, people are trying to get the work like Fanny Books and drag and trans people. Like, we we would like to be working on things like banishing houselessness and hunger and gun violence. But we got it across in the next morning. The thing I wanted to add is that, like, this is absolutely it's promises made, and I'll also say we are now in the processes of keeping process it promises that we're going to make sure Minnesota is a place that's a refuge, that's a cocoon that will protect. And some of the work that we had been working on, that I was carrying was around missing murdered indigenous women's, and 2 spirits, reward fund.

Liish:

And so around this anti violence work, we had brought forward a bill in our economic development committee for the first time ever, LGBTQ businesses and there was also for Greater Minnesota and, BIPOC owned businesses supports in the COVID pandemic, in the aftermath of George Floyd's murder. We know that over 50% of our our queer owned businesses had shuttered. And so where there was these other mechanisms being put into place because it's about that web of how are we making a Minnesota that, is actually gonna place that you could you could come. We're saying you can come. We're saying that this is gonna be a place that's got you.

Liish:

And the big bill that I was carrying with our youth across the state was around gender inclusive school facilities. I haven't told this story of anybody in public before, but this is the bill that I was really scared to carry because when I had put out the the homeless youth, bill that I had carried, to make a cash stipend so that we can end houselessness for youth and get get our young folks sheltered, especially our queer and black and brown youth. There was this horrible, nasty, like, hit piece in media and the right wing, and they put my picture. And then it was like me with gobs of money and looking like a creep. And, it was awful and just the messages that I got.

Liish:

And then going in, they did another one on the school facilities bill, which we heard the next day. So imagine we passed TransRefuge at, what, 5 AM, and we all had to be back at committee the next day at, 8 AM. I look like a raccoon presenting that bill, and I'm so grateful that we had the chair of education, you Hakim. We had representative Sydney Jordan from the queer caucus, and we had Lee was there. Our queer caucus was there.

Liish:

And in a moment where we had just heard testimony after testimony and shared story after story, The next day, everybody stood up after they stayed up all night. They came and they talked about why we need gender inclusive restrooms in our schools. And actually, the leading Republican on the education committee, he was the only one he spoke, and I thought he was gonna just, like, go off. And he said, good design is good design. I'm gonna support this bill.

Liish:

And it was, like, the most anticlimactic moment, but I think because they didn't they didn't have any fight left in them. So sometimes you just outrun them.

RB:

I love that. Just like wore wore them down to the moment. Just like, I got nothing. I got nothing. I love that.

RB:

So you you mentioned kind of what the refuge bill currently covers, what, what the what the gist of it is. So I guess kind of a follow-up question of just, related to things that are already in place. Right? Bills and and work that's already been done. What are maybe some not necessarily limitations, but just, like, things that you'd like to see kind of in, next phase.

RB:

Right? Like, that might build off of the momentum of the policies that have been passed or the the bills that have been passed. Right? Like, what would a, you know, next leg of, you know, building that momentum look like, legislation wise?

Leigh:

I can say that, after the trans refuge bill became law, it was to me so that was, like, kind of like a triage bill. Right? We had states when we started, there was 11. When we ended, there was 20. There's now, like, 26 or whatever states that have restricted or banned some level of gender affirming care.

Leigh:

Right? That that work continues to be absolutely necessary. The the the state of trans rights is an emergency in this country. So that was why we passed trans refuge. And but and I do think that, you know, now what we need to do is sort of we've done the triage.

Leigh:

Now we need to do some of the repair. Right? Like, we we need bills. We need data, for example. We have as a state, our date or we haven't really collected the LGBTQ plus data on any level, and the lack, you know, my friend Rox says the lack of data is oppression.

Leigh:

Right? Because if you do not collect data, you cannot solve a problem. And we really need to start doing that. And we have done some of that in human services, another committee that I've been where we just have to start man requiring you know, if you're collecting any data, we gotta add this these metrics. I don't know if that's, like, the least sexy answer.

Leigh:

Right? Like, data collection, but it's just so essential to policy making. We're also I'm, we're gonna bring a bill that just will provide small grants to individuals and organizations who are supporting the families who are coming to Minnesota. We know that they're here. There has been a coalition of organizations and health care providers who have started to, meet and coalesce around how to make sure that we are making good on the promises.

Leigh:

If your family uproots, they don't just need gender affirming care. They need housing, they need schools, they need jobs, they need community. We are it's going to be a lot of work, to make sure that there is a soft landing for the people that we have invited. We need to codify gender affirming care into our actual law. It is not protected by law.

Leigh:

It is protected only in the negative. Right? We haven't banned it. And I'm very concerned about our supreme court. They will eventually hear cases related to us, and I I want us to be proactive so that if something were to come down in the future, we'd know that we would be making good on our promise.

Leigh:

I will say that, like, passing the trans refuge bill was an extremely important and proud moment in my life and in the work that we do, and it keeps me up at night that we are not going to be able to provide what we have said we will provide. I take very seriously the idea that we need to move every year to continue to fulfill that promise because our community is too traumatized to be fooled. So you need to make good on it.

Liish:

Yeah. I agree. I mean, there's this in so many realms, work work to be done, and it's good work. And, we're we're ready to dig in. I think, the data collection is super important.

Liish:

As, black and brown folks, we know that if you're invisible in the data, you're you're not getting the funding right. You're not getting the investment in policy and the changes. And, also, we see that that's also need to protect us in the data as we've seen across the country that, there's been databases to try and share trans and gender nonconforming folks. You know, in California, I just saw, something out in NBC News that, pharmacies and other organizations were were sharing that. And so I think that pairing, but we need to collect that.

Liish:

And so we're making those steps and and things like, deed with the grants that I mentioned that we did. You know, we're gonna have a whole year now of sending those dollars out to queer owned businesses across the state, and we needed to diver dig deeper into those investments. I sit on the economic development committee and the capital investments committees, and those are state dollars that goes to fund public goods that should be, accountable and investing in queer owned spaces, things like our businesses, things like, libraries and, queer owned, you know, gathering places that we can continue to enrich and to, sustain our culture as queer folks. I think within health care, I absolutely agree. There needs to be a lot of work done there around curriculum, whether it's, you know, in our schools, in our public schools, on up to our health care providers that I think we have a lot of schools in Minnesota and some of the medical universities who are starting to take those steps.

Liish:

But we need to make sure that our health care providers, whether it's pharmacy or it's nursing practitioners or it's, family physicians that they know who we are, that they know the issues, that there is no mistake or, you know, it's just an everyday standard of care. You're used to interacting and treating queer folks in those settings as well as, you know, continue to fight for our, culturally is really looking at holistically, like, returning to our ceremonial ways. You know, there's a whole process for, 2 spirits and indigiqueer folks coming into adulthood, to come into your name in ceremony, to step into your life and to really, own all of who you are. And that's gonna take what has been I won't say destroyed because it it hasn't gone away. But we need help.

Liish:

And it's on the government, who created it to make sure that we're helping our communities pick those back up. This year, one of the big things we'll be moving forward is within, you know, requiring gender inclusive facilities across Minnesota because it shouldn't be that, oh, you should live in the cities to be, feel, thriving as a trans or queer person. You should be able to live in rural, metro, to the res, and anywhere else in between and have a good life, and thrive.

RB:

So I just wanna make room, for any final thoughts, wisdom, words of encouragement, advice for, you know, maybe folks interested in office in the inevitable future, just any anything you wanna name, the floor is yours, to, to speak on whenever you wanna speak on as we we put a nice big bow on this and close it out.

Liish:

Awesome. Well, I'll I'm happy to close it out. Let me jump in 1st. I just wanna say a big giant, Padamier, for having us and inviting us into your space. It is really humbling to gather with everybody, of any place that you could have been.

Liish:

You chose to be here together, and this is, this has just been amazing. I I just wanna say, like, if you're interested in running for office, if you're interested in getting involved in this work, you're already engaged in the work and we should be taking our lead from you. Like, we need you. We'll have our I think we'll have our contact information shared out. I would love love to connect, encourage, get you to the capital.

Liish:

I know from Greater Minnesota, it can be a little tricky, making the track, but there's ways that we can either get connected remotely, have you down there, or bring the capital out to community, to meet you where you're at. And, you know, the biggest thing that I think I just wanna leave you with, is that we are the people who are the original healers. Right? Like, trans and and queer folks that we are the storytellers and the culture bearers. And this world can feel a little heavy at times, a lot heavy at times.

Liish:

And so I just encourage you to continue to lean into those words that my elder would whisper to me that, giggle, window, and, like, don't don't you ever give up. We need you. We know that. We want our babies, our queer babies to turn into queer adults, into queer elders, into trancestors, and go back into the star world. And so, don't ever forget that, inside of you is star and fire power, and you're incandescent and radiant and, beautiful and, super grateful to be in this work with you.

Liish:

And so please, please don't ever hesitate to reach out and let's keep connecting.

Leigh:

I mean, it feels kind of like why say anything more. You know? That was that's it. That's everything. I'll just add, please do reach out.

Leigh:

Please do keep in, in the work. It's hard it's hard work, but it's it's full of joy and and, power and wonderfulness, and I'm so grateful. Like, every day, I'm so grateful for Leash and the partnership that we have formed and and our ability to do this work. And, you know, those connections are just like they exist they're existing everywhere, and they're waiting for everyone to step forward into these roles and to build those connections to be able to change the world. You know?

Leigh:

I mean, being trans is, a great joy and a great power. And right now, we need people who are trans and non binary and 2 spirit and gender expansive to to step into that power and claim claim it because people are dying, and and we can do it. We can have fun doing it. We can find meaning doing it, but it is really necessary. So thank you, RB, for gathering us here.

Leigh:

Thank you, Leish, for everything that you say every day. And, yeah, I'm looking forward to the to the future.

RB:

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RB:

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