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Book a free discovery call for programming for Pride Month (and beyoooond!).
Bring Allyship is a Verb to your workplace at a special rate.
This week, Dr. Trisha Wallis (she/her) shares how two years of work led up to the passing of California Senate Bill 372, a great example of the "Curb Cut" effect. You will learn: 1. Why the identities lesbian and queer don't fully fit, prompting her to use both, depending on the situation // 2. What "recruiting" looks like, including versions 2.0 and 3.0 // 3. How she leverages her privilege and access to do the most good, and what she does to check herself and keep the work moving forward
🎙️ Connect with Trisha:
Host Charlie Ocean, MSW (they/them), has a background in LGBTQ+ training, community organizing, and technology. Guest episodes feature at least one allyship tip, including tailored questions based on the guests' unique intersecting identities. You can follow Charlie on Instagram, LinkedIn, and Substack.
Creators & Guests
What is Allyship is a Verb?
People want to do better, but they don’t always know how. Allyship is a Verb is a 4x award-nominated (and now award-winning!) podcast featuring conversations with LGBTQ+ community members of various lived experiences and backgrounds who share their stories and an allyship tip. The host is a silly, warm human who offers self-reflection questions and voiceovers to help deepen the learning for listeners. The host is Charlie Ocean, MSW (they/them), who has a background in LGBTQ+ education, community organizing, and social work.
[00:00:00] Charlie Ocean: Well, hello there. I'm Charlie Ocean and my pronouns are they/them. Welcome to Allyship is a Verb, a podcast for people practicing allyship for the LGBTQ+ community and beyond!
[00:00:26] Trisha Wallis: Hey there, my name is Trisha Wallis and I use she/her pronouns.
[00:00:30] Charlie Ocean: Trisha is a super kind human and friend who I've gotten to know for a while now. I haven't met her in person, but certainly hope to someday. We've been talking about having her on the podcast for ages, no shade at you, but rather, Trisha, thank you so much (laughs) for making the time, and I'm glad our schedules could finally align.
Here are three self-reflection questions for you to ponder while listening. Be sure to stick around after the conversation for three more.
1. Have I ever checked to make sure my therapists are licensed and in good standing with their boards?
2. What's a cultural intersection I wish I could explore more?
3. How is my heart doing today?
And now, our conversation.
Alright, are you ready to dive in?
[00:01:38] Trisha Wallis: I am!
[00:01:39] Charlie Ocean: Fantastical. You are a white, lesbian/queer, cisgender woman, in addition to being a psychologist and social worker. What do those intersections mean to you?
[00:01:56] Trisha Wallis: Ooh. First of all, it's so weird to hear my identities repeated back cause I'm like, "Oh, is that what it is today? Um - " (both laughz)
[00:02:07] Charlie Ocean: Yes.
[00:02:08] Trisha Wallis: And, and what I said that day, you know. And so it is, that is what is today. What those intersections mean to me is, maybe just that, that they're ever evolving and interacting with one another, right. So, like, one might be heavier on one day versus another. Yeah, the funny thing about intersectionality is, it's just how we all are.
(laughs) So, like, to call it out and talk about it and what those intersections mean to one person, it's a little bit like saying, "So how is it to be alive?" Like, you're like, "This is just how I've been." You know. (laughs) For a long time now, for, for all of those intersections anyway, as they evolve - gosh, this is really turning into an existential podcast (Charlie laughs) quickly.
[00:03:01] Charlie Ocean: There's a follow up, so brace yourself.
[00:03:03] Trisha Wallis: Oh, okay. So I'd say those intersections, mean to me, living in my own skin authentically and claiming them as they are, as the truth is for myself, and comes with a lot of privilege, a lot of access to a lot of stuff that I hopefully don't take for granted. And, on brand with the theme of your podcast, hopefully utilize those intersections and that privilege to help other people.
[00:03:37] Charlie Ocean: Something interesting came up in our chat before today because you feel the labels "queer" and "lesbian" don't fully fit for you, which is why you use both. Could you tell us more about that, if you feel comfortable?
[00:03:53] Trisha Wallis: I do, and thank you for asking. It was really interesting how it came up in our conversation, mostly because I felt like I hadn't said it out loud until our conversation, and I kept the uncomfortability of both sort of rattling around in myself.
I don't feel like any label really encompasses all the things, for me, not deciding what other people think or feel. And neither fully encompass the way I feel about my own sexual orientation, queerness, etc. "Queer" is probably the better label for, for all of it, (laughs) because it's like an umbrella term and I can be under the umbrella in different spots, if you will. Gosh, I didn't know that was a metaphor I was going to (both laugh) use.
But "lesbian," for me, is dependent on how, well, not only how I identify, but also to some degree how my partner identifies based on their gender, right. And I don't like "pansexual," personally. I just, I don't like the word. That's it.
[00:05:10] Charlie Ocean: There's just too many pan jokes.
That's the real reason, right? (both laugh) Like, "No, I'm not attracted to pans. Thank you."
[00:05:17] Trisha Wallis: That's it. That's it. Yeah.
And "queer," I think, is the most comfortable, but I also feel like when I use the word "queer," what kind of queer? (laughs) What brand? What flavor? What, you know, accoutrement accompanies that? (both laugh) Does - I don't fully come out with that, you know?
And so when I say "queer," for me it means cisgender queer, but then that feels like too much to say, right. So I'm talking about sexual orientation or attraction, and then I start to go down the rabbit hole of like, but gender and sexual orientation, gender identity, they all start to get shapeshifty, right?
So, so I said "Well, I'm queer," and then I'm like, but it doesn't really essentialize so people know what I'm talking about. So for - personally, I like the label "queer" for me, internally, but communicating to other what brand of queer, that's why I use both "queer," "lesbian," "woman" - "queer," "lesbian," "cis woman." And it's just, this is the constant thing, yeah.
[00:06:22] Charlie Ocean: I'm kind of interpreting it like you feel like you're lying, almost.
[00:06:27] Trisha Wallis: Hmmm.
[00:06:29] Charlie Ocean: Because you're not telling like the full truth or something. But like, do people need to like know all of your micro labels?
[00:06:38] Trisha Wallis: That's totally fair. I think, as someone who - a really fair question, now that I'm like, absorbing it (Charlie laughs) entirely.
[00:06:49] Charlie Ocean: This was a therapy session that you didn't know that you were opting into. (both laugh) You're welcome. I won't bill you.
[00:06:56] Trisha Wallis: I was gonna say you should bill me. And at a really good rate, because you deserve it.
[00:07:01] Charlie Ocean: Thank you.
[00:07:02] Trisha Wallis: I think that: yes, and. Oh gosh, here it comes, here comes the therapy.
[00:07:08] Charlie Ocean: Get your bingo cards for the therapists and social workers.
Here we go.
[00:07:12] Trisha Wallis: (laughs) Here we go. Yes, and. Yes, not everyone needs to have all my labels. Not everyone should have all my labels, depending on the context, right.
[00:07:21] Charlie Ocean: Yeah.
[00:07:22] Trisha Wallis: And at the same time, right, the "yes, and," the "and" part is, I feel like visibility is really important. And to the degree that I'm comfortable to, I want to share so that people see me and I see myself in other people, reflecting back. Gosh, yeah, it's a yes and.
[00:07:46] Charlie Ocean: Reflecting back, we're filling up the bingo card. I love it. No, (Trish laughs) I mean -
[00:07:52] Trisha Wallis: I haven't said "holding space" yet.
[00:07:54] Charlie Ocean: No, because I'm holding space (laughs) for you. There I said it. Yeah, that's probably like a free space, honestly.
So I'm not trying to like psychoanalyze you at all, because it's not my thing; I'm a more of a macro person. (laughs) It's just interesting, cause I - it almost feels like you're carrying this tension of you wanna make sure - and I'm not, I'm not saying this is completely out of guilt, although I would imagine there's some element to that, and I -
[00:08:20] Trisha Wallis: Mm-hmm.
[00:08:21] Charlie Ocean: I have like my own that I work through - but almost like, "Okay, if I'm practicing allyship - " and you started with talking about those intersections and that you're aware of certain privileges and access that you have, so in my mind, when you feel like "queer" isn't the fullness of who you are, because you're not also like, let's say giving those micro labels -
[00:08:48] Trisha Wallis: Mm-hmm.
[00:08:49] Charlie Ocean: I don't feel like you're being dishonest, and I don't feel like you're not still using your access and privilege and all that to benefit the rest of the LGBTQ+ communities.
But -
[00:09:03] Trisha Wallis: Hmmm.
[00:09:04] Charlie Ocean: Yeah, what's going on? Your face, (laughs) what's going on?
[00:09:08] Trisha Wallis: I'm, I'm - yeah, thank you. I'm processing, because I think, perhaps, I know I'm talking to you. I'm holding the tension between: I'm having a conversation with you, knowing that this is going to be on a podcast and I feel safe with you, and also knowing it's going to go to a wider audience of which, theoretically, I think the people that listen to it are queer-friendly/queer-understanding/part of the community.
To the outside world, non-queer world, some people don't know what queer is.
[00:09:39] Charlie Ocean: Yeah.
[00:09:40] Trisha Wallis: And I also don't want to have to explain it. So I sit at queer/lesbian, then they're like, "Got it." Maybe a followup question about "queer." If I say "queer" inside the alphabet mafia, people get what I'm saying. And sometimes I want to say "lesbian" so they know what brand; for visibility, for all of that.
It's a constant dance of my own comfortability and being visible to people. So people kind of know where I am on the chessboard, I guess. (laughs) And it's a, it's a constant tension. And that's why I feel, I think, that's partially perhaps why none of those labels fit completely.
[00:10:19] Charlie Ocean: It's interesting because I would make the assumption, which we know what that does, and I won't say the rest of it.
[00:10:25] Trisha Wallis: Mm-hmm. (laughs)
[00:10:25] Charlie Ocean: I would make the assumption that queerness is just super expansive and allows for the fullness of you and whatever that means because it's such a wide umbrella, all encompassing term. So it's interesting that you feel actually, like, more limited by it in some ways because it's not giving your full brand.
[00:10:51] Trisha Wallis: Yeah, that is really interesting. I hadn't thought about it like that way, because I was thinking more that the "lesbian" gave me more restriction. And now, I think hearing you say that both do in different ways.
Which is interesting because then there's this parallel process, I hope that's also on the bingo card, (Charlie laughs) that I'm a social worker and a psychologist, and in different spaces, that means different things, and to some folks it would just be like, "Yeah, therapist, it's in the umbrella of therapist, why don't you just say that?"
And, in career land world. Sometimes those things (laughs) are in different camps or different campsites. (laughs) So it is not lost on me and good fodder for me to think about how those two sort of claim against or with each other.
[00:11:45] Charlie Ocean: Before we hopped on today, I was thinking - I don't tell people very often, but I do claim, and I don't say that to be like "allegedly" or something, like I do have previous experience as a lesbian. So I do talk about having lesbian roots and it doesn't just go away, because I was part of that community for several years and I really immersed myself in it. I was surrounded by other people who also claim that term; and so that doesn't just, like, go away, those experiences stay with me.
Is it a term I would use for myself today? No, because it doesn't encompass the fullness of my sexuality and attraction and all of that. But it's interesting because it's not part of, like, the intersection list that I would give people and -
[00:12:40] Trisha Wallis: Mm-hmm.
[00:12:40] Charlie Ocean: It sounds like you work through the discomfort of (both laugh) I'm not making fun of you, I'm just making fun of the profession.
[00:12:48] Trisha Wallis: Bingo!
[00:12:48] Charlie Ocean: Yeah, you work through (laughs) - yours is already full, great. You, you work through it by picking and choosing, yeah, where you're going to share those and where they're going to maybe do the most good, honestly. Because you can be the shape shifter - and I think that's kind of what you were talking about because you can use those to your advantage, but - you know, to move forward the gay agenda, which is the most important thing. (laughs)
[00:13:16] Trisha Wallis: Absolutely. I need another toaster oven.
[00:13:19] Charlie Ocean: You got yours?
[00:13:21] Trisha Wallis: I got mine. Yeah.
[00:13:23] Charlie Ocean: Jesus. I never got that or the lesbian manual. I'm still bitter about it.
[00:13:28] Trisha Wallis: Well, the toaster oven has upgraded to these times as an air fryer. (Charlie laughs)
[00:13:33] Charlie Ocean: I knew you were going to say that. I knew you were going to say that.
[00:13:36] Trisha Wallis: So, you know - who doesn't like a crispy, you know, item at home, right? (both laugh)
[00:13:43] Charlie Ocean: I know. The, the funny part is I got it for french fries and then I've only made them once in there. And I make literally like anything else in there, outside of that, but like the intention genuinely was, I was like fuck yeah I need more steak fries in my life and this will like you know do it, but then I think it was just one time.
[00:14:06] Trisha Wallis: Yeah, I think that like I also had the intention of crispy fries action (Charlie laughs) and then what happened is, now it's mostly toast.
[00:14:17] Charlie Ocean: Yeah (Trisha laughs) that too.
[00:14:19] Trisha Wallis: So yeah, yeah.
[00:14:21] Charlie Ocean: Yeah. We're complicated humans.
[00:14:24] Trisha Wallis: We, we really are.
I think one aspect of this that is so interesting is the reclaiming of the jokes. We have a really good sense of humor, I think, and also not (laughs) at the same time in the queer community, in the LGBTQ+ community.
And I really enjoy the interplay of being able to laugh at what others are saying about us; as a reclaiming, to then feel more empowered and like the toaster oven and the, you know, "recruiting" and everything, it's absolutely ridiculous. I'm not recruiting anything, except for people to stay alive.
[00:15:06] Charlie Ocean: Yeah.
[00:15:06] Trisha Wallis: Like if, if you're going to tell me that I'm recruiting for people to be alive and, you know, 2. 0, would be authentically living and happy. And if 3.0 is living their best life, then yeah, that's what I'm recruiting for. And why shouldn't we, as humans, recruit for that? And I don't mean that about gender or sexuality, I just mean that as a human experience.
So I like to think, and maybe I'm deluding myself, that's okay if I am, that I use my intersectionality and allyship for more good for other people and the part where it gets tricky is, when I think I am and have done harm from it.
So part of, perhaps, the tension that I'm holding about those identities, sub-identities, micro identities, visibility for everything, is: how can I use that for more good, to be visible, to do the most good. And constantly reflecting back to, "Am I doing the most good? Can I do more? Did I do harm?" All of the questions and more. It's complicated.
[00:16:18] Charlie Ocean: Yeah, when taking on allyship work, like how you you talked about like checking yourself.
[00:16:25] Trisha Wallis: Hmm.
[00:16:25] Charlie Ocean: And if you have feelings coming up because the ego is like "Hello", how you balance that with also, I don't know, almost like a mantra you had shared with me of, "Okay, what's my next step," and pick it up and take it on, but then also balancing that with self-care.
It's like a constant, exhausting dance. And I'm not saying it's not worth it, and maybe some days you're more graceful than others.
[00:16:53] Trisha Wallis: Mm-hmm.
[00:16:54] Charlie Ocean: When you're doing that - I mean, cause you also talked about how it's constant work. And quieting your own ego and centering those around you and not just taking the front stage, but like, when do you allow yourself, do you even allow yourself to take front stage ever? Because you're - it's not like you're exempt from hardships or any of that, so.
[00:17:17] Trisha Wallis: Right. Yeah.
[00:17:19] Charlie Ocean: I just asked you like 15 questions in one. Good luck.
[00:17:23] Trisha Wallis: I love it. (both laugh) This is, I mean, this is the work. This is the connection. This is the stuff that makes life alive; for us to be able to sort through all of the complexities, dance with the complexities, constantly churn it, and not in just a navel-gazing way.
For me, it's more of a, how can I learn more about myself to then stop looking at my navel and go out and do? I'm a social worker. I was a social worker long before I was a psychologist, and I like doing things. I like making progress. I like boots on the ground, doing stuff. "Logistics" is my middle name sometimes. (both laugh)
And getting stuff done, right? And so just sitting and thinking about it doesn't feel comfortable for me. It's the thinking about it to get ready to take the next step, to do more allyship, to push in a direction where something, myself, an organization, a city, laws, our society, culture should go nudging in that direction.
So the self is the work and the work is the self, but you're not yourself in a vacuum. I'm not on a deserted island.
[00:18:49] Charlie Ocean: Yeah.
[00:18:49] Trisha Wallis: If I were, we wouldn't be having this lovely conversation. We live in context of one another. And so I want to keep looking at how I show up and how I am in context, not simply to shapeshift to fit in or get a pat on the head. It's to continue being in community in a way that feels really good for me and also uncomfortable, which ends up feeling good, right.
Yeah, it's this constant dance of, of how to, how to consolidate all of that and how to make it work. And you know, the times where I have allowed myself to be center stage or take credit, or let myself go there, it feels good for a period of time and then it, it's done.
(laughs) Like it's good for a period of time. It feels good to be recognized. Who doesn't like to have someone recognize the good work you've done. I don't want it to be at a detriment to myself or other people, and that's just a constant balance thing.
If everyone was just giving me awards all the time, that's not - that's a - I don't know, (laughs) I don't think I'd like that for many reasons.
The question you asked was, do I allow myself to go there? I think the answer is yes. And I see so many people in the work I do, never recognized. Never center stage or in a way that I see anyway, recognize for the amazing work they're doing. And the type of personality that they are, I kind of think they feel more comfortable in the background, right, not on center stage.
And I honor that. And that's cool. And I think about all of those people that are getting stuff done in the background, not the CEOs, not the presidents of organizations, not the, the honorees at the whatever event, that truly make the world go around.
[00:20:56] Charlie Ocean: And sometimes those awards are political.
[00:21:00] Trisha Wallis: Absolutely, yeah.
[00:21:02] Charlie Ocean: Which feels gross.
[00:21:04] Trisha Wallis: Very.
[00:21:05] Charlie Ocean: Yeah, I, so, I feel like I have 15 different trains leaving the station. Pick one, Charlie.
[00:21:14] Trisha Wallis: Welcome.
[00:21:15] Charlie Ocean: Yeah.
[00:21:15] Trisha Wallis: Welcome to the neurodivergent mind, yeah.
[00:21:18] Charlie Ocean: Well, this is what happens when I don't take my meds earlier in the day before these conversations. (laughs) They don't have time to like, kick in. They'll like, kick in halfway through, but it'll still be unhinged chaos.
Times I've been honored, I've appreciated it. Something that's weird, like with podcasts, as an example, most of the time you have to submit it yourself. And it feels weird, because, like, who do I think I am that, you know, but, because, like, my friends will, not knowing, will be like, "Oh, that's so amazing, like, I'm so glad you're being, like, honored for your work." But in a way they don't realize, like, I submitted. Like, it's not like someone else submitted me.
[00:22:00] Trisha Wallis: Yeah.
[00:22:01] Charlie Ocean: Because a lot of these are also inaccessible, because there'll be hundreds of dollars to submit per category.
[00:22:10] Trisha Wallis: Ugh.
[00:22:10] Charlie Ocean: So you have to like really bet on yourself and there's financial barriers for people, especially based on their intersections, right, that they're -
[00:22:22] Trisha Wallis: Right.
[00:22:23] Charlie Ocean: Likely working with some more hardship there, and then that also doesn't feel good.
And what you're reminding me of and what you shared is that leadership looks differently for everybody.
[00:22:37] Trisha Wallis: Yes.
[00:22:37] Charlie Ocean: And it doesn't inherently mean that you're like the person with the mic on a stage or on a platform because leadership can also be more quiet and subtle but still have - and still have profound impact.
It's so funny that we're like on the " don't say but" train when I love buts - well, other butts more than (both laugh) the "b-u-t" one.
Yep, she - this is, I really should have taken the meds sooner (laughs) today. Anyway.
Yeah, I'm curious your thoughts around that, yeah.
[00:23:14] Trisha Wallis: I'm here for it because I - I too now have multiple trains that want to leave the station in different directions, and I did take coffee before, (Charlie laughs) you know, so perhaps it's not a med issue today. I'm just giving that as an option. (Charlie laughs)
The wild thing about recognition or like that example of, of submitting, you know, to be considered for an award, is ironic on multiple levels. And then, from where I sit, I think about just the submission for the award, just the nomination, even self nomination, gets the name out there, gets your podcast out there, creates a bigger reach for you, which in turn gets people thinking about and activated around allyship and doing things in their communities.
So I can see a world in which it's not performative, you know, ego-stroking stuff; it really is a function for good. And at the same time, I can feel the tension when you talk about like nominating yourself for something. Feels so like, "What?" (laughs)
[00:24:27] Charlie Ocean: Yeah, yeah, cause I recently nominated a friend for an award. They make it so fucking awkward because - not my friend but like some of these institutions - because it's like, "Well this person must be available on this date to like fly out in-person to New York, blah blah blah, like, we'll cover like travel expenses and blah blah, but they have to be there." So it's like "Okay, so, awkward question: do you have the potential to be in New York on this day?" And then you can't really say why, right, initially. I don't, I just, I couldn't find a good way to ask.
But, so, once my friend was like, "Yes, potentially, why? Like, what for? Like, are we doing something together?" I'm like, "Well, I want to submit you for something, but you'd have to be available that day." So it's like, I can't nominate you in the first place if you're not also going to be available, that's it. There's probably like, neurotypical people or something, listening to this right now going, "Oh, Charlie, you poor sweet thing. Like there's an easier way of asking your friend this question, but I made it this whole awkward thing."
But my friend was honored and you know, I, I submitted, I just. What also felt good was, you know, I was like, "Listen, I've experienced you certain ways, but there's likely even more cool shit you've done that I'm not privy to, so if you could just do me the favor of, like, giving me a list of everything as much as possible, just, like, info dump on me. (laughs) I love it. Just info dump all these things you've done, you know, here are some of the questions I'm answering so that I can brag about you."
And then what I did too is, because whether or not she was going to be picked, I don't think we tell people enough while they're here, how we feel about them.
[00:26:10] Trisha Wallis: Yeah, Mm-hmm.
[00:26:11] Charlie Ocean: So I actually copy-pasted the answers to her in an email. And I was like, "Here, since I talk shit about you behind your back, (laughs) I just thought you should be able to read it."
[00:26:20] Trisha Wallis: Aww.
[00:26:20] Charlie Ocean: You know, and maybe that was even more touching than the fact of, I don't know, submitting her in the first place, but -
[00:26:27] Trisha Wallis: Yeah.
[00:26:28] Charlie Ocean: Then not everyone wants to be honored that way either.
[00:26:31] Trisha Wallis: Right.
[00:26:31] Charlie Ocean: Because it's awkward and an uncomfortable for some folks.
[00:26:35] Trisha Wallis: It sure is. If anyone is out there listening to this and judging you or judging this process of nominating someone else. I invite them to do it once, because it's very awkward and very funny and brings up all kinds of stuff, especially when you have to submit a CV of theirs.
I don't know about you -
[00:26:57] Charlie Ocean: Oh my God.
[00:26:58] Trisha Wallis: That requires me asking them for their CV.
[00:27:01] Charlie Ocean: Yeah.
[00:27:01] Trisha Wallis: And it's a wild time. It's almost like, perhaps nominating folks is just like conspiring for good.
And it's literally an honor to be nominated, or even thought to be nominated, by your friends and coworkers and colleagues. Because that's the real gift.
[00:27:19] Charlie Ocean: Yeah, she was the first person I thought of. I didn't have to think about it. Just like, "Boop," like popped into my head. So, it was, yeah, it was super easy for me. But yeah, then I made it super awkward asking her and I'm sure she like didn't feel it that way, (laughs) the way that I'm feeling about it. And unfortunately, she didn't get picked but I don't think that was all for nothing, because I'm like, great, well if you weren't already on their radar, I hope you are now, and I hope something else can come from that. So -
[00:27:46] Trisha Wallis: Yeah.
[00:27:47] Charlie Ocean: If nothing else.
[00:27:48] Trisha Wallis: You bring up a really good point that is a big part of my allyship of centering other people's voices rather than my own. I really try to do that, and especially around whatever the issue is.
Taking a page from the disability rights movement of Nothing About Us Without Us, and trying to center and celebrate folks who are doing the work, who have been doing the work, who continue to do the work, who've always done the work, is really great.
And being able to be in community with those folks and alongside them to see the amazing stuff they do is, that's the real joy for me in allyship work.
[00:28:34] Charlie Ocean: Yeah. So go nominate someone for something. (both laugh) That's the allyship tip. No, I'm just kidding. (Trisha laughs) But also not.
[00:28:44] Trisha Wallis: But also yes.
[00:28:46] Charlie Ocean: I do think, even though it can feel really crunchy, I think that if we can take a moment to stop and pause and recognize how we've contributed to the world - and sometimes we're never fully I mean, well, we're never fully aware of our impact on people and the ripples, and I'm sure there are stories people tell about me that I'll be none the wiser because I was this awkward ass student that showed up in their class one day and shared my story, you know, and for the times I do have it come back to me - I mean, that's incredible. That's not why I do it.
[00:29:20] Trisha Wallis: Hmm.
[00:29:21] Charlie Ocean: I don't know. It almost feels like I have to.
[00:29:25] Trisha Wallis: Yeah.
[00:29:26] Charlie Ocean: Just because it's what drives me - and I think you're similar.
[00:29:30] Trisha Wallis: Yeah.
[00:29:31] Charlie Ocean: I've just recognized that in the things that you've shared so far.
[00:29:35] Trisha Wallis: I spoke about my grandmother at her memorial service and the things that she was so amazing in doing, were just because she did them, because it was part of her. And that's, I think, what you're talking about, the need to keep doing the things, because it's just who we are.
And in that way, I think for me, allyship is very closely entwined with authenticity; I hope it is. For folks that are looking to get active as allies and in allyship, doing something that feels good to them and close to their heart and just be yourself in doing the thing, or things, is the way to do it.
[00:30:17] Charlie Ocean: Well-said.
[00:30:18] Trisha Wallis: That sounded like an allyship tip, but it's not. (both laugh)
[00:30:22] Charlie Ocean: Sneaking 'em in.
Mm-hmm.
[00:30:25] Charlie Ocean: For two years, you worked to pass SB 372, which, for those who don't know, stands for California Senate Bill 372. The nutshell version is that it removes dead names or given names, previous names, whichever version you want to use, from therapist license lookups, and also updates the gender marker when applicable if that's also what they're doing.
So, first, cause people are like, "What the hell is a therapist license lookup?" Could you help explain what that even is and the significance of how not having something like this has hurt people in the past?
(start musical PSA in the style of an upbeat 50's advertisement)
[00:31:04] Charlie Ocean: Well, if you didn't know that you could look up if your therapist is legit.
Whatever you're doing now, just quit and go look him up. Go look him up. Go look him up.
It can't wait.
You don't want to be stuck with some asshat.
You deserve to be with the legit one, a therapist. And that's a fact!
So go look their ass up, come on, look their ass up.
You could do a search on the internet for "therapist," "license," "lookup," and your state.
Hurry up, don't wait, hurry up, don't wait, don't wait.
(end of musical PSA)
[00:31:58] Trisha Wallis: Absolutely. A consumer wants to make sure that the person who says that they're a therapist, is in fact licensed in the state.
In the state of California, there's the Department of Consumer Affairs that regulates all these boards. And there's a couple of therapist boards. There's the Board of Psychology, the Board of Behavioral Sciences that licenses social workers, marriage and family therapists, and licensed professional counselors.
And the consumer can go on that website to look up not only is - "if this person licensed?" But also the status of their license, if it's in good standing, etc.
And part of that license lookup process, gives you information about the person: when they registered with the board, the date they got licensed and the school they went to, lots of information. And one of the things that's been on there for a very long time, are name changes. And name changes over time - typically you've been, if someone got, for simplicity's sake, married or divorced or changed their name in some form or fashion.
As a byproduct, when people transition and their name is very gendered previously or afterwards or a mix thereof - a person can make a lot of assumptions about that. And giving everyone the absolute most generous assumption, at best, it triggers our implicit bias, when we see it. At worst, we can then discriminate based on that, if the person is very anti-trans, etc. But it gives information that can harm the person and can create lots of issues.
So for example, if a person is, let's just say, a therapist, a psychologist, and they transitioned and their previous name, given name, dead name, is very, very gendered in one direction. And then every time the license lookup occurs, whether it's by a potential client, by a current client, by an institution that's checking their license to make sure that they're in fact licensed and in good standing for a promotion, for hospital privileging, or insurance reimbursement - there's lots of reasons people look up licenses.
Every single time that person is potentially misgendered, potentially dead-named, potentially triggering implicit bias in the person looking up. It even can be overt, where clients can then circle back to the person and say, "I can't work with a trans therapist. I'm discontinuing my services with you." And it has done that; people do experience harm. People are passed over for promotions and in one example, are not credentialed with the hospital.
And if everything else on their record is clear, in that case, trans therapist is then thinking, "Is it because they saw my dead name? Is it because now I've been outed as trans, because of my gendered previous name?" And that question is part of minority stress over and over and over again. So it can be in a wide range of things.
I should add that it's not just about - the law that was passed, isn't just about trans people, and there was some addition in that language that's now, if you read the bill, you'll see it. People escaping domestic violence have order of protections and have changed their name due to stalking, domestic violence, etc. they also, too, can have their previous name erased from the rolls, if you will.
That is a really cool way that we were able to encompass more allyship, even in the allyship, to be able to help trans and nonbinary therapists and folks licensed under DCA, but also those experiencing, and have survived, domestic violence and stalking.
[00:35:42] Charlie Ocean: Yeah, it's the curb cut effect.
[00:35:44] Trisha Wallis: Exactly.
[00:35:46] Charlie Ocean: (post-interview explainer added in) The "curb cut effect" means things like laws or programs that are designed to benefit vulnerable groups, such as disabled folks or people of the global majority, often end up benefiting everyone. Some examples include: closed captioning, which can be used by hearing people, including neurodivergent folks such as myself and curb cuts, (laughs) the parts that dip at the end of some sidewalks. Those can be helpful for items like strollers and suitcases beyond mobility aids. (return to interview audio)
We don't maybe always know how this is going to help one particular group, but then also others for very different reasons, so I'm glad that you brought that up.
Something that both of us we're very passionate about, was when people think states like California and Colorado - because I live in Colorado now, but I'm originally from California, where you are - they think they're safe like blue bubbles, but that's just not true. And something I brought up when we were talking was that people forgot that Prop 8, which banned same gender marriages, passed back in like, I don't know, 2009 or so.
And a while back, you were mentioning the potential for maybe three or four anti-trans ballot propositions in California to like be coming up soon.
[00:37:12] Trisha Wallis: Mm-hmm.
[00:37:13] Charlie Ocean: Yeah, I'm curious if you could talk a little bit about those and how they're impacting clients that you work with.
[00:37:19] Trisha Wallis: Yeah, like we were talking about before, we don't live in vacuums, and even legislation happening in other states affects the emotional and psychological health of people in "blue bubble states."
[00:37:33] Charlie Ocean: Mm-hmm.
[00:37:34] Trisha Wallis: Even in blue bubble areas, right, where the potential for those types of laws happening is very low. And at the same time, in California, because we have a super majority, very trans-friendly and supportive legislature and governor office right now, it takes a different form sometimes. We see things popping up in school boards and in different ways in different pockets. One way that it can pop up is with this constitutional amendment, or propositions, for people to vote on.
And there's of course a process to have those qualify. I think that's partially why Prop 8 happened in California. People using the process of democracy to test things out or to try to further different agendas or pass laws about things.
What I think - you know, the machine will machine, right? (both laugh) The machine is machining and the way that it affects the clients that I see and interact with and their support people, is it really contributes to that gender minority stress, that hypervigilance of, "Am I going to have to worry about this? Am I going to have to make an exit plan from this country? Am I not safe in California? If I'm not safe in California, where will I be safe? How can I get there?"
Constant hypervigilance and scanning the environment for safety. I have folks that are making potential and real exit plans to different countries, depending on how November goes.
[00:39:19] Charlie Ocean: (post-interview explainer added in) For those of you not in the States, this is a presidential election year, which happens every four years and means higher voter turnout, especially compared to our midterm elections. (return to interview audio)
[00:39:32] Trisha Wallis: And/or potential and very real plans regardless of how November goes, because they need emotional, psychological, and physical safety in ways that they need it.
It's not lost on me that that is both a privilege and tragic that people even have to consider that or think that. I think what people forget that aren't in marginalized categories, and I use that term very shape shifty, is that for gender minorities, especially trans and nonbinary people, it's constant hypervigilance.
If it's not in their physical immediate environment, or their friends, or their family, it's their state, or their city, or, "Can I, can I be out in this place? Can I wear gender affirming clothes at this place? Can I even go to this place?" etc. It's a constant background running tape of safety scanning.
And that wears on people, psychologically.
[00:40:40] Charlie Ocean: Yeah.
[00:40:40] Trisha Wallis: Even in the bluest of blue areas.
[00:40:43] Charlie Ocean: Yeah, and places like Denver aren't as blue as people think they are. Yeah. It's more purple than anything else at best, so -
And in your case, when you're working directly with clients who are trans, nonbinary, gender-expansive, it adds more pressure to something that can already be stressful of making big decisions: about your body, about your future. Not even just exit plans of like relocating to another state or country, which is not easy, and you're giving up a lot when you do that, though there are financial privileges and everything, you know, if folks can make that happen, it's not available to everyone.
And some people do want to stay and fight, and I'm not here to, like, weaponize. allyship and say, "Oh, well, you should have stayed and fought or whatever." Because people have to make the decisions that are best for them and their families.
[00:41:39] Trisha Wallis: Absolutely.
[00:41:40] Charlie Ocean: So there's that piece. But yeah, I imagine, and you've shared with me, that for your clients, it's like, "Do I need to like, hurry up and get this surgery now? Is this like, still gonna be an option for me in the future?" And you don't want to feel any more pressure about making those kinds of decisions.
Not because I think people will make the wrong ones, but I think that - any medical thing I've had happen, if I was not in like the best, especially like mental and emotional state to, to deal with it, it absolutely hurt. Like, the experience of like, healing, it made things like more challenging, and you know, especially when you do something like having top surgery or whatever, like I had. Like, you really want to have people around you, championing you, and checking in, and bringing you food, and helping you shower, and all of these things, because all of a sudden you're very vulnerable.
[00:42:39] Trisha Wallis: Yes!
[00:42:40] Charlie Ocean: But you also don't want to have to rush those decisions, especially when insurance fights like hell to not cover it.
[00:42:48] Trisha Wallis: Right.
[00:42:49] Charlie Ocean: It's a hot mess.
[00:42:50] Trisha Wallis: Right.
I think for people who haven't walked through that, or had to walk through the mental gymnastics of that, don't understand it to a degree that, "Well, it doesn't affect me, it doesn't bother me." Or it's whatever, "those people", blah, blah, blah, fill in the blank, awful thing.
What folks don't realize is that no one should have to make decisions around bodily autonomy and care, medical care, emotional care, mental health care, that are pressured by governments, that are pressured by other people other than their own decision about their own thing that's happening right now. It adds different elements that really complicate things.
Having government involved in your decision around your own body is something that I wish for - that no one has to have.
[00:43:57] Charlie Ocean: Yeah, the intersectionality of gender-affirming and reproductive care issues. And I think you've demonstrated really well how these are very similar liberations that we're working toward.
[00:44:18] Trisha Wallis: A lot of overlap there and having worked in both fields, in my career and allyship journey, there's a lot of overlap in a lot of ways, that I wish there wasn't - (laughs)
[00:44:33] Charlie Ocean: Yeah.
[00:44:33] Trisha Wallis: And understand it to be.
There's a lot of work to be done. I know so many people that I've gotten the privilege of knowing that do the work and are absolutely amazing, and wish we didn't have to know each other for doing the work, (laughs) if you will.
[00:44:53] Charlie Ocean: Yeah. Something that has come up recently, and this is pretty heavy: one of the ways that people sometimes can weaponize allyship is saying, "Oh, but it's so much better than it was before."
We didn't lose Matthew Shepard that long ago, and we basically just had almost the same thing happen to a young trans person in Utah. I just read it. And I just also watched the Laramie Project for the first time in ages, last year. And so like having that fresher in my mind and then reading the story about this young trans guy in Utah, it's just like, "Fuck."
And that's why, when people try to say, "Oh, well we'll fight it and we'll win" and everything, "Okay, but - sure." You know, do I believe we'll win in the end? Absolutely. I, I do believe that. And there are real consequences to what's happening here and in the UK, because we're seeing an uptick in violence against, especially trans people.
[00:46:03] Trisha Wallis: Mm-hmm.
[00:46:05] Charlie Ocean: And I imagine, you know, that's a really tricky space for you to be in, with your clients, because this isn't like a pretend or an imaginary fear; this is, this is reality.
[00:46:21] Trisha Wallis: There's an adage that helps me re-center or think about when those really heavy topics like this come up. And I don't know if it's the macro social worker in me, (laughs) maybe it is, that's okay if it is. It's taken from public health, and it's "When people are in the river, you need to pull people out of the river, but you also need to go upriver to find out why they're falling in the river, or being pushed in the river." How did they get in the river in the first place, and how do we address that while we're also pulling people out of the river?
I like that for many reasons. (laughs) I like rivers. I like the metaphor. And I like that we can address both at the same time and think about both at the same time.
And what, unfortunately, has happened in history over and over again, with queer people, with women, with marginalized folks, with people of color, etc. it's people say, "Hey, this thing is going to attribute to more people in the river." And then people say, "Ah, doing Chicken Little stuff, 'the sky is falling'." And then there's more people in the river. And then we got to pull out more people out of the river. And we got to also address why people are getting in the river; it's like this constant dance about that. And it tends to shift over time with whatever the issue is.
And being in community with people who are addressing both is incredible. And I've met so many amazing people doing both, and continue to. It's going to wrap in, in a beautiful way, hopefully, my allyship tip (laughs) of, of being able to think about where you want to intervene. You can do both. We also have limited capacity because we're human and because time is finite.
So if you want to do more pulling people out of the river, and that is where you want to spend your time, cool, do it. If you want to figure out why, and then also address how people got in the river, and you want to do that, cool, you want to do both.
Doing anything to be an ally is amazing, and has served me more, arguably, than I've served people. And my allyship tip is -
[00:48:51] Charlie Ocean: Well, let me, let me ask you.
[00:48:52] Trisha Wallis: Okay, sorry. (both laugh)
[00:48:55] Charlie Ocean: Don't ruin my format.
[00:48:57] Trisha Wallis: "Stop there, Trish!" (laughs) Got it.
[00:48:59] Charlie Ocean: What's one allyship tip you'd like everyone listening to consider?
[00:49:04] Trisha Wallis: Think globally and act locally.
Nothing in your immediate environment is too small for you to address. City council is not too small. It doesn't have to be grand. Even your next-door neighbor, or something on your street, still matters. So acting locally and doing something right in your community does have ripple effects and it does impact the world.
While also thinking about global issues is really important, and knowing that you can do both, you can do something for both. And watching the impact that you get to make in your own sphere, your own local area is wonderful. So that's, that's my allyship tip.
[00:49:58] Charlie Ocean: Well, Trisha, we did it.
Thank you so much for having this conversation with me. I appreciate everything you shared and it was fun going down some of those rabbit holes, even though both of us were like, "Oh my gosh, which train should we take?" (laughs) And thank you for sharing so much joy and laughter with me. It's such a unique treat to be able to poke fun at ourselves from time to time, so I'm glad that we were able to do that. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
All right, it's time for the final three self-reflection questions:
4. If I'm part of the LGBTQ+ community, what's a stereotype I don't fit? What's one I do? If I'm not part of this community, what's another community I'm a part of that these would apply?
5. Who is someone I know doing incredible work in my community who doesn't get recognized? How can I recognize them in a way that would feel good to them?
6. What kind of leader am I?
Alright, folks. Before you go, this is your friendly reminder: Pride Month is coming up, book your people! Book your people.
Listen, there are a lot of speakers, especially those that are highly sought after, that are probably already booked out entirely. Like, you won't even have a chance, maybe if there's a cancellation, and even then. So, now, get, get that fire under your ass going, and go and find your speaker, your trainer, whatever the situation is, your moderator for your event, get them, get them now because You want to get the people that are at the top of your list.
And I say this with all of the love. So, like, for example, I still have spots open right now, so feel free to reach out to me, if you want to have a conversation about that and what we could do together, but every year, every year, I'll get people that contact me at the end of May, mid-June, trying to get an event for the end of June. Y'all, Pride Month is the same month every year.
And depending on your role within the company, especially because there's been so many budget cuts, including closures of DEI programs, budget cuts for ERGs, I have some solutions that may be more accessible to you. And I plan on expanding on what that looks like.
Not only do I have an offering that is now $500 a session, with some extra details in there that I'll be sure to include in the show notes, but also, I'm planning on releasing a bunch of do-it-yourself stuff. So that if you wanted to host some sort of screening, needed inspiration for discussion questions and things like that, that you'll have more opportunities available to you if you need to do things in-house.
So, reach out! Let me help you. And let's see how creative we can get together to do something cool.
Visit AllyshipIsAVerb.com for any resources and a full transcript of the episode.
And remember, sometimes allyship means to think globally and act locally.