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Lights Up is a living history project that aims to shine a light on inspirational women who have led the way in the theatre industry in the East Midlands and inspire the next generation of young women growing up in the region. This series of podcasts features 9 episodes interviewing pioneering women in theatre. You can subscribe to listen to all episodes or watch the filmed interviews on our website.
Lights Up is a project conceived and delivered by Fifth Word in partnership with Derby Libraries, in association with Derby Theatre and supported by The National Lottery Heritage Fund.
Bethan:
Welcome to Fifth Word’s Lights Up! podcast. This is a series of interviews with pioneering women in UK theatre that we hope will inspire the next generation of theatre makers. The women featured all have a connection to the East Midlands region in England and have been interviewed on camera by young women aged 16-21.
In this episode, Jenny Sealey, Artistic Director and joint Chief Executive of Graeae Theatre Company, is interviewed by me, Bethan Soar, on 5th March 2020 at Derby Theatre.
Graeae is an international leader and innovator in accessible world-class theatre. Jenny has led the company since 1997, was awarded the Liberty Human Rights Arts Award and co-directed the London 2012 Paralympics Opening Ceremony.
Can you please introduce yourself and tell me when and where you were born?
Jenny:
I was born on 17th September 1963 in Marston Green in a home for unmarried mothers. Which I only found out about three years ago. I am the Chief Exec and the Artistic Director of Graeae Theatre Company.
Bethan:
Can you tell us a bit more about the work that Graeae makes?
Jenny: Graeae is all about giving deaf and disabled people opportunities in theatre and opportunities to lead. It’s the most extraordinary job.
Graeae was set up forty years ago to redress the balance or imbalance that there were no opportunities on stage for deaf and disabled people. And when it first started out it went to very small scale theatres. And we still do that. But now more of the bigger reps, they have made their buildings backstage more accessible, so we have much more opportunities to grace the stage – grace diverse stages across the country.
We develop new writers, deaf and disabled new writers. We develop actors and directors. We work in London, nationally and internationally. So I’m on a mission.
Bethan:
Lovely. What is your connection to the East Midlands?
Jenny:
My mum was from Nottingham, then my grandparents sent her off to Birmingham, Marston Green, to have me, then came back. So I grew up in Nottingham. All of my education in Nottingham. And that’s where I fell in love with theatre, dancing and everything. So it’s home.
Bethan: What did your parents do for work?
Jenny:
My mum and dad both worked for this photography studio, that’s where they met. So they did weddings, parties, just headshots and they did the Boots catalogue as well.
Bethan:
That’s very interesting. What is your first memory of theatre?
Jenny:
Oh, blimey, that’s a hard one! I think my first memory of – I started ballet when I was six, I went deaf when I was seven, but I carried on doing ballet. And our dancing teacher Nora Morrison, from Morrison School of Dancing, ensured that we did a show every year. And we used to do it at the Cooperative Arts Theatre, which is now a cinema, in Hockley.
So my experience was actually doing shows rather than seeing shows.
Bethan:
What was the main trigger for you wanting to work in theatre?
Jenny:
I wanted to be a dancer, not an actor. When I did my A levels I did theatre studies and there was so much acting, and it was a real learning curve. And some dancing, but I carried on doing my dancing. I think Nora Morrison was an extraordinary, extraordinary woman, who just inspired all of her girls – there were a few boys but it was mainly girls. And her tenacity for discipline and for grace and to use your body to tell a story.
Then when I went to Middlesex Polytechnic they wouldn’t let me on the drama course, drama component of a BA, because of my voice, they were worried about cues, how would I cope and all the rest of it.
So I thought, hmm. So I went into the dance bit for an audition and I got into the course through dancing. I started to get more and more involved in the acting side of it and that’s when I thought, no, I would like to be an actor, not a dancer.
Bethan:
We understand you lost your hearing as a child. Would you be able to tell us more about that?
Jenny:
It was my best friend, Raymond Macintosh, spiky hair, little round glasses, we were messing around at school, Hayden Road Primary School, his mum was the cleaner.
So we were going to jump out behind the book shelf and scare her. I mean, not a very nice thing to do, but anyway. So we were working out, plotting out how we were going to do this. And he was just messing around and he pushed me, it wasn’t malicious, it was just one of those, oh Jen sort of thing. Fell, whacked my head on the corner of the table. Bang!
And I got up and I went, “Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh,” and I still do that when I put my hearing aid in to make sure I can hear, “Uh-huh, uh-huh.” I went, “I can't hear.” And I just ran, ran home, got to the corner of our lane and the Roberts family were up there, these horrible boys, and they were beating up my friend. So I got stuck in and I fell again but this time on my arse. I got up, “I can't hear!” Ran down the lane, got home, I went, “Mummy, mummy, I can't hear.” And she said, “Don’t worry, darling, you know, sleep on it, in the morning you’ll be fine.”
And the next morning I woke up, and I thought, right, because there’s a tree opposite and we had a red squirrel in the tree, which were very rare even back then. But I thought, if the squirrel is there I will be able to hear, if it’s not… Oh… no squirrel. So I hate squirrels. So we had hospital appointments, blah, blah, blah, nobody could work out why I was deaf. But they agreed I am deaf.
So I got my first little hearing aid, little box hearing aid. And nobody tells you how to be deaf. So I just went straight back to school and I thought, oh – I mean, I had to teach myself to lip read, teach myself how I was going to cope in the class with teachers walking up and down. I always had to sit next to someone who had good handwriting, even if I didn’t like them, I had to sit next to them.
Bethan:
How do you think it’s impacted the career that you chose?
Jenny:
I would not be at Graeae if I wasn’t deaf, because Graeae is around opportunities for deaf and disabled people. So I do have this ongoing nightmare that I’m in the office at Graeae and I’m on the phone and I’m chatting away, having a great conversation, all of the staff come in and go, “Jenny, you can hear!” (Laughter) And I have to pack my stuff and leave. And it’s an awful nightmare. But if I wasn’t deaf I wouldn’t be at Graeae.
So actually for me it wasn’t a barrier. My very first acting job though was with Graeae. And I will never forget that audition. Walking into this room full of women, it was a women’s play, people who were deaf, blind, no legs, guide dogs, white sticks, wheels, this plethora of difference. It was extraordinary. And I suddenly thought, ah, I’m home, this is where I finally belong. It was just amazing. I got the job. Terrible play, but what an education.
And the tour was all over the country, sometimes in inaccessible spaces. So we refused, this radical group of women, we refused to do a play in an inaccessible space, and instead we did a forum piece for the audience arriving, saying, “We can't get in there.” And then years later I go back as the Artistic Director.
Bethan:
That’s lovely, yeah. Where’s your own personal journey into the industry?
Jenny:
I wanted to work. And being at those small companies, because of the hard real political undercurrent of how they were formed or what they were about, it was like, oh my God, this is heaven on earth, and this is what I want to do.
I think that’s when I realised, the TV and all that stuff, I’m not actually interested in this, I want to be a person that makes theatre or does theatre for people that matter with politics and care.
Bethan:
That is absolutely amazing. Can you tell me about any training that you’ve had?
Jenny:
Apart from Middlesex Poly, no, I’ve had no training of how to be a director. I am one of these people that makes up life as it goes along.
I think so many women have imposter syndrome and I really do have that. I think one day someone’s going to find me out. I only know four Shakespeare’s. I’m so embarrassed. So there’s loads of plays that I don’t know. And how to manage and run a company, I am just making it up. (Laughter)
Bethan:
When did you first realise that you were good at directing?
Jenny:
I was seven months’ pregnant with Jonah, and there was a little tiny, tiny weeny advert in the Stage paper, Interplay Theatre Company, based in Armley Leeds, were looking for a trainee director. And it was just a six week contract. I thought, oh, I like that. So I applied, got it and sat on a beanbag, (laughs) because I was massive, sat on a beanbag and watched John Palmer direct this play called Dream Kitchen.
And it was watching him do things, I was thinking, oh, I don’t think that’s the right story, I would do it like this… And it was that thought process, I thought, oh, maybe I could do this. And what an amazing man. As soon as, baby out, John gave me two of my own shows to do. And all of their work is hugely multisensory for young people with profound and multiple impairments so you have to think on every single level of how you're going to communicate.
So we did the Tempest, which remains my favourite play ever, and a beautiful play by Mike Kenny called Stepping Stones about mothers and daughters and independence. And it’s from there that I got the confidence to apply for the Graeae job. But all my trainee assistant directors I say to them, “You won't learn from me what I do well, you will learn from watching me thinking, oh God, why’s Jenny doing that? That’s not going to work. That’s when you know that you could do it better.”
Bethan: What qualities do you think make a good director?
Jenny:
I think there has to be a level of transparency that I don’t know everything. You know, I’m one of these directors that hate sitting round the table. I don’t know how to do it. I’ve got the books, I’ve read the books, I don’t get it. I think it’s boring. But it’s a really good way of working for many, many actors. But for me it’s like, get on the floor, play around.
So I think I like to collaborate but I also know that I have to be the person that stops, because potentially it could go on for like five hundred hours. So I think the best thing is to be collaborative, and to give space for actors to find the journey themselves and to do their homework.
Bethan:
Yeah, I agree with that. What is the difference between being a director and being an artistic director?
Jenny:
An artistic director oversees the artistic whole of the company. So it’s about what happens with the young company, what happens with the ensemble, what happens with the new writers, playwriting.
I have to oversee and get my hands stuck into all aspects of the company and deliver an artistic overview. I suppose strategy, I hate that word, but it’s what we want to do and then how are we going to do it. And who are we missing? Because we haven't done enough with deafblind people, we haven't done enough with Changing Faces, we’ve got a lot of people that we still haven't embraced. So it’s about how are they all part of our artistic future.
Being a Chief Executive means I have to know where the finances are. I’m not very good at that, but I’ve got a very, very good financial director.
Bethan:
It’s just so interesting to hear. What do you enjoy most about your job?
Jenny:
What part of my job do I enjoy the most? Oh, directing plays. I hate being in the office doing typey-typey – I’m not very good at that. I love being in a rehearsal room. And I love being in schools.
I’ve got a new schools project, I’m doing monologues and half the group are nonverbal communicators, so we are redefining what the monologue is. It doesn’t have to be words, or spoken words. And they are just glorious, smart people. I love being there. …Being here today, talking to you, anything that’s not in the office I think (laughs).
Bethan:
What do you struggle most with in directing?
Jenny:
Finding a way of how – because I have interpreters with me, in rehearsal, I have to. So it’s about finding what the communication is for the performance and for me. So if I’ve got deaf actors, the interpreter’s working for the deaf actors and they’re working for me, so we have to organise the room.
I think because at Graeae, our aesthetic is how do we have signing, captioning, audio description woven into the heart of every production. And every play is different. It has to be the play that informs you how to create the access, not put access on it. So it’s inside, it’s probably inside out rather than outside on, if you know what I mean.
And that is hard. It’s really, really hard to get it right. We haven't made the most accessible play yet, we are on a mission to do it. Because every deaf and blind person has a different viewpoint of how access should be.
Bethan:
Yeah. If you had to choose, what three words would you use to describe your job?
Jenny:
That’s a really hard question, for someone who talks a lot. Challenging. Political. Awesome.
Bethan:
What gave you the confidence to pursue this as a career?
Jenny:
I’m still trying to find that. I had a board meeting the other day and when I’m in a board meeting I go to pieces. I struggle to talk about the work, I babble. So my board have suggested I have some coaching. I mean, I’ve been at Graeae for twenty-two years, you’d think…
But you are only as good as your last job, if you know what I mean. So I think that terror that it’s all going to go tits up is – I’m not saying that I’m not confident, obviously I have a level of confidence, but I’m also constantly terrified that it’s all going to go tits up.
But that’s good, it gives you a sort of adrenaline, you have to keep going. Do you know what I mean?
Bethan:
Yeah, I completely understand that. What’s been the biggest setback in your career?
Jenny:
Setback? Oh. I mean, there was a time when we had a report done, I can't remember why we had a report done, but basically this HR person came to talk to all the staff about the structure of the company, what wasn’t going right and all the rest of it. It was like some members of staff gave me a vote of no confidence. It was horrible. And my partner at the time was so very sick, very, very sick. So I handed in my resignation but the board wouldn’t accept it. That’s happened twice. So that’s very reassuring. But that was a real setback.
And actually recently, we’ve had some hard times with our board, and that’s really knocked me for six. So I’m so lucky that my staff allow me to ball it, be vulnerable, say I want to give up and they just - bam - they group and they hold me. They are amazing. And let me be crap. Over a period of time they’ll be saying, “Come on, Jen, get over yourself,” and support me.
But that ability to be vulnerable in an organisation is very powerful. So many people can't, so I do feel very lucky.
Bethan:
How do you cope with these setbacks?
Jenny:
Not very well. I’ve said it in my answer in a way, I just go underground, but I’m allowed to. But I’m a stubborn old bugger as well and I like a fight, I like a challenge.
So I just have pick myself up and go, right, come on, Sealey, go for it.
Bethan:
It’s wonderful you're doing that. You were joint artistic director in the opening ceremony of the Paralympic Games in 2012, how did that job come about?
Jenny:
That was one of the most incredible fourteen months of my life. It was the hardest thing, apart from childbirth, it was one of the hardest things I think I’ve ever done.
But I found out that another company, a nondisabled theatre company, had got the job. So I went to see the head of the ceremonies. And I just kept saying, “Oh, I hope the work will go to a deaf and disabled artist, there’s lots of us around who could lead this. And I think because we’ve got the Paralympic sport we need to match that with the excellence of disabled people.” And he said, “Oh no, no, we’ve got a nondisabled company doing it, do you think – will you work with them?” I said, “We will, of course we will, I want opportunities for my artists. I’ve set up circus training, we’re prepared.” But I think what a shame, what a missed opportunity.
Although I was in Japan on the underground and my phone went, that company had pulled out and Martin was asking Bradley and I whether we wanted to go for an interview to become joint artistic directors. We had six brutal interviews, oh God, they put us through the mill, they really did. And finally when they said that we could get the job, Martin took Brad and I out for a drink. But we were just like… Cheers, well done. Go to bed now.
And we had five weeks to come up with our narrative because the government were about to go on holiday. We’d gone for something, we used enlightenment as our theme, and equality. And used the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as our foundation. I just remember Boris going, “Oh, it’s a bit clever, isn't it?” Well, what do you want? You know, we’re not going to do the Teletubbies. And it’s like, no, no way, we are going to tell a story, it’s going to be political, it’s about rights, and we are going to populate our field of play with as many deaf and disabled people, and really embrace diversity in its wider sense.
And we did. And we trained up forty-four deaf and disabled artists in circus skills and they were part of our professional team. My Miranda was Nickie Wildin, wheelchair user. And Ian McKellen loved her. And we had Stephen Hawking. Lizzie Emeh, learning disabled songstress, she sang I Am What I Am with Beverley Knight right at the end. It was amazing. And at the end there’s a photograph of me, I was just like that, and it’s my facial expression is exactly the same as when I’d just given birth to Jonah. Oh God, it really did feel like giving birth, it was hard.
Because we were the only disabled people in the whole of the operations team. So we had to be a stuck record about what we wanted. I cried a lot with frustration really, but I had the most fantastic team of interpreters with me, so felt supported. So access wasn’t an issue, it was just getting everyone on message.
Bethan:
It’s absolutely amazing to hear the stories.
Jenny:
So there were two brilliant moments when the captioning guy said, “Can I play around artistically?” I said, “Yes, please, that’s what we want you to do.” So he created beautiful captions.
Then I was walking across the field of play and this guy with a big roll of rope and Gaffa, whatever, and I said, “What are you doing?” He said, “I’m just marking out the area for the navigation section,” because we had quite a lot of blind performers in there, so that they had the rope on the floor so they could navigate. They didn’t have to be held or dragged on, they could navigate their way and they knew what their dance pattern was because of the rope.
I didn’t have to tell them to do that, they just knew that they had to do it. So little things like that, you think, yes! Small wins. But every day Bradley and I had to choose our battles.
But my mum still wants to know when I’m going to get a proper job. So this feels a bit like therapy.
Bethan:
What were the biggest challenges of the ceremony?
Jenny:
As a woman, it was dealing with so many blokes. God, it was so hard. The main producer was a fantastic woman called Catherine Ugwu, she was on the floor with us, she was amazing. And I went to her and I said, “Catherine, that bit of the choreography with the sound thing, this is what needs to happen.” She said, “Yes, well, tell the team.” I said, “I have been telling the team until I am blue in the face, they are not listening to me.”
So in one of the big production meetings at 3AM in the morning after a dress rehearsal, there was about forty people around the table, terrifying, Catherine said, “Oh, and that bit, blah, blah, blah, blah, that needs to happen.” And my team went, “Oh yeah, oh Catherine, absolutely.” And then she looked at me, “Jenny, was there anything else you wanted me to add to that?” To let them know that I’d gone to her with the idea but they weren’t bloody listening.
So she really put them in their place. She was – everybody talks about inspirational women - she was actually phenomenal. Yeah. So just dealing with blokes. Men like it to be their idea. So I became very clever at getting my ideas in and making them think that it was their idea. It was exhausting. (Laughter)
Bethan:
What was your greatest moment with the ceremony?
Jenny:
Oh God, there’s so many. So many moments.
We were told that we had absolutely zero money for a real firework display, but they didn’t tell us, on the actual night the fireworks were incredible, they’ve kept that a secret from us, which was really, really lovely.
Being in a tiny little sound studio with Beverley Knight, she was saying, “Right, Jen, this is my wedding pictures, what do you think? Oh, for a song, I’m thinking about…” and she just blasted out the first bit of I Am What I Am, in this tiny room, she’s got a massive voice. And I’m like, wow!
But some of the personal journeys, one of my circus artists, this young man called Stephen Bunce arrived - first day of training – he’s a double amputee, he had meningitis when he was eleven, he’s got some fingers missing as well But he wouldn’t show anybody his prosthetics. Then one day someone went, “Jen, look, look.” Buncey came in and he’d shorts. And a bit later on he was up on the trapeze, his legs off. And then he had his sway pole test, double amputee, climbed up, slotted himself into the very, very tight buckled round your legs, so basically he is floating in air. And he came down, and Grant, who was the sway pole director, “You know, you could be a sway pole performer.” Buncey balled it and said, “I’d never dare go swimming with my stump because of my body,” all this stuff, but his confidence, you know, that personal story of him just really owning who he is.
And he’s still a good friend and I’m still always there to back him up. He’s amazing. So those stories are the ceremony.
Bethan:
I’d like to talk about the changes in the industry for women. Have you noticed anything?
Jenny:
There has been a lot of change. About time, you know. We have Indhu at the Kiln, Vicky Featherstone at Royal Court, and Vicky Featherstone was at the National Theatre of Scotland. Women are getting out there. So there’s less fear.
We’ve still got a lot to do. It was so ridiculous. The National announcing their programme and you look down, it’s all men. They were very shamefaced about that. But a lot’s changing. What we still need though is more lighting designers, more women in the technical side of theatre.
Bethan:
Yeah. What are the advantages of being a woman in your role?
Jenny:
Oh blimey, oh, I don’t know how to answer that. I think the advantages, I think women are much better communicators then men. We are more transparent and we work with our intuition and guts. And we’re not afraid to do that. So I think that’s what makes us better directors, dare I say that… – yeah, I think that’s an advantage.
Bethan:
What are the disadvantages of being a woman in your role?
Jenny:
Constantly having to just keep our heads above the parapet. How do you say it? Keep your head up. I think that, it’s hard.
I feel like we’re constantly having to run a campaign for equality. And when it all came out about the gender pay gap, it was like shocking, shocking. So, yeah, we’ve got stuff to do.
Bethan:
We’ve spoken a bit about the theatre as a place for women, but can you tell us a bit about the industry for deaf and disabled artists?
Jenny:
I mean, that is changing, because of twenty years of Graeae campaigning and Graeae doing big shows like the Threepenny Opera, where other reps were all sort of, wow, you know, This is good theatre. Reasons to Be Cheerful, by Ian Drury, punk musical, it’s good theatre. So people’s eyes have opened, “oh, maybe we too can employ these people.”
And deaf actors are hugely in demand, which is great, but I think everyone’s a bit like, oh my God, sign language, it’s so beautiful. That irritates me a little bit because there are a lot of other differently impaired actors that need a chance as well. But there is work now. And that’s the message I keep saying to the drama schools, it is worth training us, because there are jobs. So many drama schools say there’s not enough plays written with disabled characters. It’s like, that’s not the point. Shakespeare didn’t say that Juliet was or was not a wheelchair user or deaf or blind. So, come on.
So one of the things that we are really trying to challenge is companies cripping up. You never, ever black up, so why do you crip up? And I keep saying but acting is about being somebody else so you can play a disabled person, but not at the moment, not until there’s absolute parity on the stages and we are employed as much as nondisabled people, then we can think about how we cast and divvy up the roles.
Bethan:
Would you say it’s progressing?
Jenny:
It is progressing. It is progressing. But we need training. The most awful thing will be, is if there’s a massive hole in training - that the new generation don’t come through
.
Bethan:
What would you say is the biggest thing that needs to change?
Jenny:
Drama schools. Drama schools need to train us.
At the moment, our ensemble is we’re supported by Rose Bruford who really understands it. And all the tutors for ensemble are from the drama schools. So it’s like a twofold thing that those tutors who are terrified about disability get a chance to work with our lot, realise how they can change and adapt some of their teaching practice, so it’s really inclusive.
We get brilliant tuition, they are brilliant teachers. But the next stage has to be that they have more than one disabled person on a course. What? Come on.
Bethan:
If you had a magic wand and you could change one thing in the industry, what would it be?
Jenny:
Well, at the moment the whole thing that’s really impacting terribly on deaf and disabled people is Access to Work, putting a cap on the provision. And PIP, Personal Independence Payments.
Two of my ensemble have had their care packages cut. It might mean for one of them that they have to go back and live in a hospital, because they need two support workers 24/7, and they’ve cut their – 60%. And a lot of my other performers have had their mobility cars taken so they can't come to work.
It’s horrendous what the government are doing. If I could magic that access and payments would not be an issue, everyone has what they need. It’s heart-breaking, it really is.
Bethan:
I completely agree with your political view on that. What would you say is your greatest achievement?
Jenny:
My biggest achievement is being at Graeae for twenty-two years, it’s extraordinary, a) that they’ve allowed me to stay that long (laughs).
When people say about the ceremony, “Oh, that must be the best thing you’ve ever done,” it’s like, well, it’s one of many things I’ve done, – every play is different, every play is a challenge, every play takes you on a new journey. So they’re all achievements.
I don't know what my biggest achievement is. I suppose having a child and being a working mum is always an achievement, juggling all those things.
I think I am incredibly proud when I go and see someone who’s in a different play. Like last night seeing Oliver! seeing three people who’ve all come through Graeae, well done for that. Seeing how we’ve impacted on the industry, that is massive.
Bethan:
What drives you to do your job?
Jenny:
Oh, the absolute inequality that’s out there for deaf and disabled people. That’s what gets me to work every day, to try and make the world a better place.
Because Graeae was founded because there was no opportunities for Nabil Shaban when he decided he wanted to be an actor. Theatre directors to his face said, “Oh, someone who looks like you, no, we can't you have on our stage. You’d put the audience off.” I mean…
So, you know, what you could do back then was go to the Arts Council and say, “Right, I’ve got an idea for a theatre company for deaf and disabled people, can I have some money?” Boom, and off he went. And the mission statement in 1981 when the company was founded is exactly the same as it is in 2020. We’ve made a lot of change.
Derby Theatre got a complete integrated cast for Treasure Island. The Ramps on the Moon work in an inclusive way, the RSC, the National, the Globe, they’re all starting to think about it. Which is brilliant, but we’ve still got a long way to go.
Bethan:
Yeah. Is there a production that you're most proud of?
Jenny:
I’m proud of – we did The Fall of the House of Usher. And I didn’t have any money to have it audio described or signed, so my board said, “You’ve got to do it though, Jen.” So I had to be really resourceful. And Steven Berkoff has written more stage directions than text, you know, in the wonderfully pretentious way that Steven Berkoff does. So I wrote to him and said can I use the text for stage directions as audio description, spoken by the actors? He said that’s a really good idea. And I pre-recorded all the sign language with a deaf actor, so that was projected onto this mirror above the bed which was the main set, which I designed to save money.
So it was simultaneously signed and audio described by the actors, so we did it in all, nothing was added on. That play changed the face of Graeae forever. That’s when we realised, oh my God, this works, this is exciting, this is different. So Usher will always be, wow, I loved that play.
Bethan:
Obviously, you’ve done so much in your career, but what do you feel like you have left to do?
Jenny: Oh God, stuff. I want to direct an opera. I want to be the first deaf opera director at the Royal Opera House. I don’t think that’s going to happen, but – the opera will happen but whether it’s at the Royal Opera House, probably not. So opera. We’ve never done anything at the Barbican. I have never done anything at the National. Amit Sharma, my associate, had his play on at the National, The Solid Life of Sugar Water, a Graeae production, brilliant.
Nickie Wildin, my associate director, is Rufus Norris’ protégé and he keeps saying to me, “I’m interested in Nickie, Jen.” I keep saying, “But Rufus, it’s on my bucket list.” Not interested. So I need to just get over myself on that one. I do want to really, really push the agenda with deafblind performers, of how we work that. I did a project in Moscow with deafblind actors and that happened here. And it’s a whole other landscape of exploration.
But I also want to do some work with the little ones. I’ve got my own solo show that I’m doing, but that’s sort of aside of Graeae. So stuff to do.
Bethan:
Yeah, a lot of stuff to look forward to. How do you suggest a young person like us can get into the industry?
Jenny:
How do young people get into… I think join a youth theatre. Really, really important.
Some of the best actors out there went to youth theatre, and I wish to God that they would always put it in their bio, because it’s really important. And I think it’s so upsetting when so many theatres, when they’re having to restructure or make cuts, they cut the youth theatre. No, youth theatre’s better than drama schools really. You get so much more diversity in – and you're allowed to play and explore.
But so many youth theatres are not accessible for deaf and disabled people, and that really needs to change. So go to youth theatre, see a lot of work, if you can. Start to know what sort of theatre you like. And read plays. And try and write plays. Just immerse yourself in the whole world. And because it’s a brutal, brutal profession, the rejection, you need to learn how to build your resilience. You have to have so much [strength] to get through it.
Bethan:
What advice would you give your younger self?
Jenny:
I knew this sort of question would come up.
I wish at the age of seven I was brave enough to say, “I’m deaf.” I didn’t say I was deaf until I was twenty-three. I got through life by nodding and trying to lip read. My education is pants. I’ve got so many gaps. I don’t have a chip on my shoulder, I’ve got a forest around academia and education, because mine was rubbish.
So that’s what I would say, “Jen, be brave, say you are deaf, it’s all right.”
Bethan:
It’s been so fascinating talking to you.
Jenny:
They’re good questions. Hard. So thank you. You're a very nice interviewer.
Bethan:
Thank you, Jenny.
And thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with others. All episodes in this series are available on major listening platforms, and the full-length video recordings are on Fifth Word’s website where you can also look at images and other details from Jenny's personal archive.
Next week on Lights Up!, we’ll hear from Indhu Rubasingham - then - artistic director and chief executive of Kiln and - now - the incoming artistic director of the National Theatre, interviewed by Jas Nolan Green, age 18, at Kiln Theatre.