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Welcome to She They Us, a podcast about making room in housing for women and gender-diverse people brought to you by the Pan-Canadian Voice for Women’s Housing.
Join host Andrea Reimer to hear about why Canada’s housing crisis is hitting households led by women and gender-diverse people harder and what you can do about it.
Welcome to She.They.Us., from the Pan-Canadian Voice for Women’s Housing.
Your host, Andrea Reimer, is a housing advocate, educator, and former Vancouver City Councillor who’s experienced homelessness firsthand. Andrea has spent her career at the intersection of power, policy, and courage to catalyze transformative change— and here, she brings that passion to the stories of women and housing across Canada.
This is She They Us, a podcast about the women and gender-diverse people living at the frontlines of Canada’s housing crisis.
Andrea
Black women have a long history in Canada — longer than many realize — and it’s a story shaped by both hope and hard truths.
It’s hard for many Canadians to hear but slavery was part of life in early colonial Canada. In the 1600s in New France, and later under the expanded territories that came under British rule, both Indigenous and Black people were enslaved.
Black women and men were originally brought here through the transatlantic slave trade, and later by white Loyalists who brought hundreds of enslaved black people with them… when they re-settled in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, after being on the losing side, of the American Revolution.
During this period, some Black Loyalists also crossed the border from the United States seeking freedom, but often found something different: although promises had been made to them during the war, laws did not protect Black people living freely in the territories that would become Canada, and it was common for them to face extreme poverty and extreme violence.
Change began slowly in the late 1700s, and by 1834 the slave trade was officially abolished in the British Empire. Only then did people start to make their way north through the Underground Railroad, eventually numbering in the tens of thousands, building communities — and for Black women in particular, building safety.
Then in the 1910s more restrictive immigration policies all but closed the door to non-European immigrants to Canada.
After decades of exclusion, a new wave arrived in the 1960s — families from the Caribbean and Africa who helped shape modern Canada. Each generation came seeking freedom, stability, and belonging. Together, they built the foundation of Black life in Canada — a story still unfolding today.
In this episode, we’re joined by Stephanie Allen, a long-time advocate for Black housing, to help us understand the historical context shaping the realities of Black-led households in Canada. Then, we’ll hear from three Black women who immigrated to Canada — one in the 1980s, one in the 2000s, and one in just the last few years — to see how much has changed in modern times… or how much hasn’t.
Elvenia
When housing failed, everything else failed. So your health, your ability to work, your children's ability to thrive. And, you know, I've worked to make sure that black voices are heard in housing policies because for far too long, we've been the invisible people in this decision.
Andrea
A note before we get started: there is some language and discussion in this episode about gender and race-based violence. Please take care while listening and it’s OK to not listen or to need support afterwards.
Let’s meet Stephanie.
Stephanie Allen
Yeah, my name is Stephanie Allen. I'm originally from Southern Ontario, a little town called Port Dover, and I'm currently living in Vancouver on the unceded, unsurrendered lands of the Musqueam Squamish and Slatewood Tooth people.
Andrea
Stephanie has been part of conversations about building just cities — cities that work for everyone, but especially for Black communities — for a long time. I asked her to share a bit more about that work and what it’s meant to her.
Stephanie Allen
Yeah, you know, I started my career in real estate development in 2002 after finishing a business degree and I started in the private sector. And then around 2010, I really had this desire to work in a way that brought my kind of passion for social justice to my hard skill sets. So I was looking for work in the nonprofit kind of, you know, government sectors.
And through moving into that side of the business, I decided to do a master's of urban studies. And it was through this class called Urban Inequality in the Just City. We read Susan Feinstein's book and it really connected to that like higher desire to see my work have more purpose and more alignment with my values. And then a class about, you know, urban inequality, the way that we unpack that class.
really led me to learning about this local situation where a Black neighborhood had been destroyed and displaced through urban planning policy. So through a term paper that became a master's project, and then it led me into community organizing, I kind of learned how these systems and structures that I always just thought were benign, you know, I'm just getting my projects built, I'm building housing, you know.
actually have their roots in some things that are not always visible, but are quite harmful for certain communities and populations. And so, you know, learning about how urban policy has destroyed certain communities, neighborhoods, particularly how urban planning targeted racialized neighborhoods right across North America and how that kind of happened here kind of led me then into community organizing when I learned that the city of Vancouver
was removing the Georgia and Dunsbury Revival.
Andrea
Perfect. So in what you just said, you talked about, you said things that are harmful, but you didn't unpack the things. Can we do a bit of unpacking about what those things are? And I'm particularly like, there's things that are harmful to everybody who's not from sort of a dominant cultural demographic. But can you I'm curious about like, can you parse out the generally harmful and then the things that have been specifically harmful to black folks?
Stephanie Allen
Sure. Yeah, sure. You know, I think we gotta think of things almost in like two kind of buckets. There's structural things that have taken place that are economic. And those economic things starting, you know, 400 years ago through the expansion of colonialism across the world by European nations who were seeking land and seeking resources. The people that they encountered, they needed to deal with
the balance between their religious doctrine that had certain fundamentals about human value and how they were treating people who they wanted to take land and resources from, including their own human resources, I guess. And so this structure that kind of emerged was an economic structure, but it required people to be classified based on their skill and color, by their geographic location, by their ancestry.
And so what we have over 400 years now is a hierarchy of human life that says some people are the human example and they represent a full human and people fall somewhere down the line as being less human. And this is the justification for economic hoarding by some people and the deprivation.
that is inflicted and enforced on others. And it has happened to people of all races. It's happened to Europeans. It's happened, I it has happened across the world. And so what we live with now are the manifestations of this very complicated economic system that requires, you know, certain marginalization of certain peoples in order to maintain it.
Andrea
As Stephanie is talking I can’t help but think of Jenn’s experience in our last episode and how even for white women, the free market is not actually that free. But for black women, you have all of the challenges of being a woman, but then also all of being black. I asked Stephanie to talk about how that critical difference manifests in people’s day to day lives. This is a tough answer to hear and a reminder about taking good care.
Stephanie Allen
Yeah, I think part of the European, the colonial project that was enforced on everybody was patriarchy, which they practiced for thousands of years before they met other cultures. And that's that degrading and domination of women. And now you add to that the domination of non-white bodies as sources of extraction or elimination. And you kind of have black women sitting at an intersection of you know, combining forces where they are both excluded because of their race and excluded because of their gender. And, you know, when you think about the ways that everybody's trying to climb and get ahead, know, white women of higher classes in the Atlantic slave trade, they were also slave owners of other women. And so that's where the solidarity among sisters didn't really hold. Right. And so it was and so it was really important to recognize that, you know, while poor white women were being subjugated, they were given this kind of like, you know, you can give up your cultural identity and you can give up your ancestry and the things you come from in exchange for this aspirational ascension into something that would give you power over others.
And so black women kind of sit at the very bottom rung of this racial caste system that puts both gender and race, the spaces that they occupy, their identity, their physical characteristics, as being the least human among the humans. And so they, and let's remember that Black women's bodies were the source of capital creation in the West. I want to add a warning here, but they're there for sexual violence, but
they experienced extreme sexual violence in forced impregnation for the purpose of creating more property because human beings then were the mortgageable interest, right? As opposed to land being the mortgageable interest. Indigenous peoples were, you know, pushed off of their land violently through genocidal means in order to acquire land. But because there was so much of it, the institutions that financed it didn't, you know, see the land as valuable as the humans.
Stephanie Allen
So the humans carried the first mortgage interest, they were property, they could be willed to heirs. This is the way that it was originally structured. So black women really sit in this position of having to have dealt with occupying this place of extreme subjugation and exploitation to build wealth and then coming through that through emancipation at the end of slavery.
Through the resistance, which they never stopped fighting. We have incredible stories of black women leading major slave rebellions, Harriet Tubman, one of our favorite stories. But this fight for equality has really not stopped for women of African descent in the West. It continues. We've made gains. just recognizing that that's where black women have been placed in the economic order.
Andrea
I was in the course of doing research for this, I came across this article from bell hooks on home place, Jay Pitter actually sent it to me. And in what you just said, it lands so
clearly, this idea of the home place and as home as a site of resistance and a site of humanize because it's a site of humanization. It's a place where you get to be fully human. So can you talk and help people understand who don't already have an experience of home that way, what the importance of home is for black women?
Stephanie Allen
Yeah, would say, you know, fundamentally, it's the same importance it has for everyone. It's safety, it's communal care, it's intergenerational linkages to those who came before you. It's a place for play, for education, you know, from sheltering, from the prevailing winds that are out beyond those walls, not just the physical winds, but the winds that people face that they brace from through the systems and structures that they pass through. And I really appreciated you sending that article. hadn't read it. I've read a good chunk of bell hooks, but not this essay. And I love how she talks about houses belonging to women. The people of West Africa who comprise the majority of the people kidnapped into the slave trade come from predominantly matriarchal cultures where royalty was passed through the women and therefore women had a very strong place in society and major authority. And I think that it's very possible that part of what Belle is describing in this houses belong to women concept that she talks about is I think some vestiges of that.
You know, while we've lost a lot, there are vestiges we've retained through our ancestry. I think recognizing how women really do set the tone of the home, they are the disciplinarians, but also how the slave trade has affected family composition in African, know, communities, African descent communities in the West by separating people from their children and their loved ones and their partners and their parents constantly.
You know, it has been really hard to hold together for Black couples to hold together who have had children, the economic pressure, the systemic pressure. know, grandma, and she talks a lot about her grandmother, like, grandmother's having this role and the importance of grandmothers and how they, and I even remember you talking about setting up a grandmother's table. I think this was way back when we were talking about some cross-cultural work about that.
Stephanie Allen
continuity of culture, the continuity of care, someone that is grounded and holding folks together, particularly when you think about the traumas that folks have gone through. And then when she talks about resistance to white supremacy domination by establishing home place, home is also a place where the eyes are not on you from the predominant society that has been controlling people. Even when I look at the sugar estate, that my ancestors worked on in Guyana where my mother's from, they had the little shacks where people made their home. And my mom described to me visiting her grandparents in these shacks where they remained working, even though they had been emancipated from the legal condition of slavery, they were still economically quite dependent on these circumstances to live. And these were the places where the women, especially when you think of the importance of food and meal preparation and how home is held together by Black women. And it's very true. And I think the health of women, and we've seen this through every study globally, the health of women in their communities is the health of the community and how home has been such an important part of that when we think of this diaspora that we've become here in the West.
Andrea
We are going to come back to Stephanie but the point she’s made that the health of women in their communities is the health of the community, is a critical one and I’d like to bring in some of the other women I interviewed for this episode starting with Elvenia.
Elvenia
Okay, so my name is Elvinia Grace Sandeford. I am from the island of Jamaica. Born, I've lived in Vancouver from the late 80s. So I've actually lived in Vancouver longer than I've lived even in Jamaica
Andrea
you've been involved in housing advocacy for quite some time can you tell me a bit about the work you've done.
Elvenia
Well, in the 80s, I was volunteering with rape crisis centers. I was also working in transition homes, shelters, Elizabeth Fry, Nova Transition House, Vancouver Rape Relief and Women Shelter. So I've done tremendous work around housing in terms of getting women safe housing and escaping violence and yeah just housing with families.
Elvenia
my advocacy have always been centered on how housing affect health and families and communities. When housing failed, everything else failed. So your health, your ability to work, your children's ability to thrive. And, you know, I've worked to make sure that black voices are heard in housing policies because for far too long, we've been the invisible people in this decision.
Andrea
I asked Elvenia if she’s faced discrimination in her work
Elvenia
I've lived in Vancouver where I was working at the rape crisis center and get a call to go out and to accompany people to the hospital or the police station. But in Ontario and in Vancouver, I've had people, I remember back in the day when HIV was rampant, people used to threaten us with your needles. I used to get a lot of threats with needles. Don't come close to me, I'd rather die before I have you.
Elvenia
work with me or you support me. I go to a hospital, accompany people to the hospital and I will get the same thing. I've had hot coffee thrown at me for being there to do accompaniment for someone who is in need. They'd rather have nobody than have me because of who I am and the skin I wear, right? I've had jobs where I've even in the women's organization, I've had jobs that wasn't given to me, but was given me. I got Saturday and Sunday, and the person who got Monday to Friday, when I asked her, said, if I have, I used to do nursing in Jamaica. I've been at the rape crisis center and other women's center for so long, for years, giving my time voluntarily.
Why wouldn't I have gotten this position? And they said, because you don't have enough education. I'm like, OK. Only to find out that the person who got the job only did a six months Montessori course, I have way more education than the person did and way more experience. And the work could not be done for Monday and for.
The work that she did Monday to Friday, I would come in Saturday and Sunday and have all the residents waiting for me to come in because their needs are not being met Monday to Friday. And even though my coworkers would stand up against it, when I got to know the assistant executive director much more, she said to me that...
The reason why I didn't get it was because they this is the first time government is putting money into this pot. We cannot give it to a woman of color. So I was expected to come in and do the work Saturday and Sunday because it wasn't being done Monday to Friday. Like, what am I going to do? Not serve the people while I'm there? You know what I mean? So when I look at it to see back in my days, most of the black women that came in were women who came in as caregiver. I came in as a caregiver, as a nanny.
Elvenia
Yeah, yeah, so most of us came in as caregivers in that time. We didn't have that much black women coming in to go to universities and stuff like that. And even though a part of the agreement when we came in as caregivers was that we have to show proof of how we for lack of better words, make ourselves better in Canada, right? Working as a nanny. don't know, sentences can go together, because it doesn't. Because I know for me, when the people I worked with, they're not giving us time to go to school. And what can we go to school to do at night? Like in terms of getting a career.
I remember when I, didn't have to work as a nanny anymore, which they tell us, you know, when they were recruiting us here, they say you work for two years, you apply for land debt, and then you can bring your family in. That was a lie from the pit of hell because that wasn't so. They didn't tell us that we'd have to wait up to 10 years to get landed permit. What do you do within that time? And then when you get out of that work, who is going to hire you, even if you had education, when you work for the last five to seven years as a nanny, like who's going to give you a job?
Andrea
This point about coming in as a caregiver is an important one and a thread that will run through this episode but we are going to leave that for now.
Elvenia has an organization called Harambe. I asked her to tell me about that.
Elvenia
Harambe means pulling together for one cause in unity. And so our organization, we look at equity across the board, lifespan. And so we look at the determinants of health. And one of the determinants of health is
Elvenia
is living condition is housing. So now that we're here and especially when we come to looking at the age and the aging.
From my days of working in shelters and working in crisis centers, I know that when we look at the people who come into shelters and crisis centers, a lot of time it's not black folks, because we were taught not to air or dirty laundry. So you will probably see them moving from place to place to place, staying with a friend and staying with a friend. Now we know that the couch surfers don't get When you look at the numbers, they don't get listed in the numbers because nobody can find the coach surfers, right? And a lot of time when we're doing research and data, the coach surfers are not involved in these numbers.
Elvenia
I remember at one time that years ago, I remember where
We had so just a whole bunch of black women used to come to my house. it was almost as if we're a little transition house for women who had no place to go. And so I have had the opportunity to always be housing people in my house, always. I think this is the first time that I am actually living in Vancouver where I'm not housing people.
Right? And that's because right now myself, I'm living with my sister. So it's not my space to be bringing women in.
Andrea
If you’ve been listening to the podcast for a while then you know the challenges of women’s housing precarity being invisible but I am curious to know how this particularly affects Black women. Here’s Elvenia again
Elvenia
You know, I've been looking at Harambe, I know not Harambe, Hogan's Alley. I've been visiting them and I've been hearing them speak about the research that they're doing in terms of getting the data for black women and housing, which, because it's now, we're not considered in a lot of data. So we're not considered in a lot of strategy and policies. Like the system is not built for us as black women, because nobody wants to hear our voice and you can't do...
anything for us without us, right? So, and if they're not hearing our voice, how are you gonna plan for us? And are you gonna look at equity where black women, whether it be in health or in housing or whatever the needs be, nobody's listening to anti-black racism because the word anti-black racism is such, it's a bad thing. Once you say anti-black racism, it becomes a bad thing, right? They'd rather use the word,
Elvenia
BIPOC, the acronym BIPOC is used a lot. But a lot of time when the acronym BIPOC is used, it's not about us. I can tell you that because a lot of time my face is the only black face in the crowd and I'm saying, which BIPOC people are you talking about?
Andrea
The themes Elvenia is touching on are not dissimilar to what I hear from women who are not Black but what Elvenia has just said hits hard about how much harder it is for Black women to see a pathway out of it. I asked Elvenia if during her time in Canada things have been getting better or worse.
Elvenia
I don't know about us being better. I think we're better because our children who have had opportunities to come to Canada have grown up and are doing much better. We made sure that they were doing better. We worked ten jobs to make sure that they went to school and they can go to universities and for some of us anyways and that they live better lives than we do.Like, I can't see a job that's paying me livable wages at my age that I'm only gonna have to work one job. And that's the scariest thing for me right now. for me to have a roof over my head and food in my belly and pay my bills even insurance, you can't get a place to rent without having insurance. The cost of housing in Vancouver, I cannot live by myself, that's for one. So I have to continuously live in with somebody, right?
Elvenia
Like I'm a grown woman, you know what I mean? I'll be sharing room with anybody and thank God I don't have to.
But when I think about that, that scares me a lot. That I would never, I don't think I'll be able to live, what my living reality right now is that I will never be able to live in Vancouver and live on my own.
Back in the days, I kind of feel like it was much better. We had less salary, but we were able to pay rent. You could rent a one bedroom apartment and pay $700. A one bedroom apartment now is $2,200. I am university graduate and I can't even get a job. You know what I mean? That's gonna pay me for more than $25 an hour and you're sending me to find housing and to work with people who need housing. But when a crisis worker is in crisis, where does the crisis worker turn?
Andrea
Let’s meet Fahdilah
Fadhilah
So thank you Andrea. My name is Dr. Fadila Balugu. I'm an internationally trained medical doctor from Nigeria. I now live in Waterloo region and I pay market rent in the rent to jail complex that I live in right here in the region.
Andrea
Fahdilah came to Canada 20 years ago. I asked Fadihlah to talk about her housing journey to Canada and how she ended up in Waterloo.
Fadhilah
So, actually I left Nigeria when, know, I had, I, you know, when I went to meet my husband in Saudi Arabia, so we're based in Saudi Arabia, but you know, but we had processed our permanent residences. after two years, after I lived in Saudi for two years, we came, we finally relocated to Canada, but initially it was to New Brunswick. So we lived in Fredericton because my husband, you know, got the opportunity to continues his PhD in geotechnical engineering.
Fadhilah
And then we decided to come down to Waterloo region. because of the EMB to finish his EMB because he's very interested in, he's still very interested in business. So that was why we eventually ended up in Waterloo region.
Andrea
I asked Fadhilah to talk to me about her experience of being a Black women in Canada
Fadhilah
Yeah, okay, so coming into Canada, I always tell people this joke. I never knew I was a black woman until I came to Canada. All I knew growing up in Nigeria was I was Fadila. And I was a Muslim. That was the only thing, those were the two identities. It was when I came here, I had to be like, okay, I'm, you know, I'm black, I'm black, really.
I didn't see the colors growing up. Not because I grew up in my own country, because we, know, Nigeria has always had lots of...
foreigners. So I went to medical school with lots of foreigners. So I didn't see maybe you know, maybe because it was my own place, was my own, you know, on my own soil. So I didn't, you know, have that experience. But coming to Canada, you know, I found it odd that I had to, you know, be identifying over and over, you know, as a black person. I just wanted to be known as Fadila because every other person around me, I believe everyone is human, right? I accept, you
We are not, and anybody that doesn't identify as a human, then maybe we are in the wrong place. So that was one of the first things, that fight for identity. And even if I wanted to label myself or not, I was labeled the black woman. You understand? I was like, okay. And then secondly, having to fight for what had worked for all my life. and not have that recognized. So as a medical doctor, didn't, one of the reasons why we came to Canada was okay, was a fast track on, you know, in my professional life. That was what my husband saw to me. Otherwise I wouldn't have, if I had known that, let me not say if I had known. But you know, that was one of the reasons why we came to Canada. Fast, you know, growth in our careers.
Fadhilah
So, you know, like having to fight for, you know, what had worked for all my life was also, you know, another challenge, you know. I would say for me it was the biggest one because...
At the end of the day, it was really painful. I'd lost a part of my self coming to Canada and not having my work and my degree recognized. I was so much pushed into a box that just wanted to label me as a black woman that didn't know anything coming to Canada.
I that. I refused that narrative. And even if I wasn't working as a doctor, I was not going to accept that narrative that I didn't bring anything worthy into Canada. I came here as a professional and with my family and I was just going to look for the best way to use my skills, my knowledge and my experience.
And that was how I found myself in community work.
Andrea
For reference: at the time I recorded this interview millions of Canadians lack access to a family doctor and Health Canada recently released a study that estimates we need approximately 23,000 more doctors in Canada to meet that need. Just like the market isn’t free for some women, it turns out that supply and demand is not the only thing governing the job market.
I asked Fadhilah to tell me about her community work.
Fadhilah
So like I said, when I came to Canada and faced my own challenges and...you know, wondering how, you know, I could, you know, so one of the ways I found, I found myself again was helping the community, helping my community with those skills that I had. And one of it was language. So, you know, know, having English as, you know, one of the languages or the language I I've studied in throughout my life, you know, and English is the Nigerian official. language, right? So having that, you know, and seeing when I started, you know, going into the community, learning about, you know, religion of Waterloo and learning the Canadian ways of doing things. I knew that was important because when you get to a place, you get to any place for you for one to thrive, you one has to learn the ways of doing things, you know, in that in any setting you find yourself. So when I came to I had the choice either to stay at home and continue to cry over spilled milk that I couldn't work as a doctor, you know, I had lost my identity, I couldn't do anything, or go out and just learn, learn, learn. And there's something about me, I call myself a life-long learner. I like to learn and you know, just any free training, any opportunity to learn, I would, you know, apply for it. And that was how I connected with you Andrea, right?
Andrea
Fadhilah and I met through the Pan-Canadian Voice for Women’s Housing which Fadhilah connected with through her work with the African Women’s Alliance of waterloo region. I asked her to tell me about her organization.
Fadhilah
So with the African Women's Alliance of Otalu region as the executive director following the death of the pioneer and founding director, Saadia Ghazem. So around 1996, Saadia and a handful of other African...professionals found themselves in Waterloo region. If you were to ask any immigrant on the street, they would tell you they came to Canada for better future prospects, So as of that time, way back then, Waterloo is not what it is today. wasn't that. was really, I was a white community. so as of that time, they found themselves to be isolated. And the opportunities were not there for them to grow. So somehow, know, with their different struggles, know, the struggles and the challenges they faced brought them together. And they found healing in meeting with each other weekly, you know, to just debrief about the week. And that was how they felt and thought that it was necessary for them to have an organization that would provide that, you know...
Fadhilah
familiar faces, services, know, to new, to those that would come after them. So after a year, they held a family picnic because then some, of them had their husbands here too and their children and everyone in the family was going through that isolation, that loss of, you know, of identity and everything. And so when they held the first picnic, they realized they need to really start an organization and because we are women, it was even more important to have an organization where women could come together as sisters to be able to unravel and just manage life as women living in foreign lands and battling different challenges.
Fadhilah
And so as African Women's Alliance, our role is just our main mission and vision is to create a safe space for African women and their families as they come into the region, to help them in this resettlement journey and this phase of their lives, knowing that there will be barriers and challenges for newcomers as they come into the region.
Andrea
Through her work with the African Women’s Alliance, Fadhilah has seen how things have changed in the Waterloo region. I asked her to give me some of the flavour of that. Just a note here that Fadhilah references “rent to gear” a few times in this section. That is “rent geared to income” which is where you pay a percentage of your income to rent with the idea that you always have money left over for food and other expenses.
Fadhilah
It went from just being able to provide first and last payment to bring, know, verifying proof of income and verifying that shortly before the pandemic,
One of the regional housing, you know, management that I called because I was, you know, looking for, you know, some places to rent for the newcomer families. You know, then the, what do call them the property manager told me point blank as of 2019 that if, you know, there was no proof of income of up to 60,000,
For a family of four that the person was not going to get the unit and I was shocked.
Fadhilah
When I came into Waterloo region, our first rent was $890. Now for a two-bedroom flat, now for a two-bedroom flat, we are looking at 2,800 plus utilities.
So it's really been, it's just been crazy, know, seeing the change in you know, secured housing. Now we don't have secured housing because the waitlist on the rent to jay housing in Waterloo region is 10 years. That even the, you know, the region had to come up with some programs to help to buy people off the waiting list.
Fadhilah
Peace.
You know, and still with that, you know, like I, you know, because of our advocacy work in housing and other, you know, settlement, resettlement issues, you know, we were opportunity, we were offered, you know, some sports for, you know, like I said, you know, to buy off people, you know, in lieu of rent assistance, you know, to buy off them off the list. Do you know we've, I've offered to people over and over that they were going, were going to be in exchange for them going off that list they were going to be offered you know some you know rental you know you know assistance. You know people have refused to do that because they said it's better for them to get into rent-to-gear. Why? Because rent-to-gear if you earn more you pay more. If you earn low you know you you pay low and I really you know I and I I understand with them because that was my situation many years ago. We moved into this unit. My husband didn't have stable job because he wasn't working as a professional then, as his profession, as an engineer then. He wasn't working because he couldn't get that job for a very long time. it was all this time. temporary agencies. and you know, with temporary, you know, agencies, are never guaranteed a steady income. So with that, you know, at times you would, you know, you would get some hours, know, at times the hours were not guaranteed. that being in a rented housing really helped, you know, stabilize us at that time. I can't imagine, you know, if, you know, our situation
Fadhilah
situation, know, fast forwarding that situation into today's market, rental market.
Scenario it should have it to be disaster. I think yeah, it will be disaster one thing that kept me true You know what one thing I believe you know, like you know, identify as a Muslim So I everything I said believe it's you know, do you know my god, right? I Know that one of the ways that God helped me, you know when you know I did you know when we're facing our most difficult challenges was having that secured house
you know, knowing that if we earned more, we paid more. And if we didn't even earn anything, we had, you know, that base amount, you know, and we had base amount that we could, you know, easily afford to pay. So that helped us. That gave us stability. It gave us identity, you know, a place to, you know, come back, reset and...you know, look for other opportunities. And I think that is one thing that is missing now for many new immigrants in the Waterloo region and across Canada.
Andrea
These circumstances sound hard for households led by men. I asked Fadhilah if the African women’s alliance works with any single moms
Fadhilah
okay, so just in preparation for my interview, I really wanted my team member to chip in. And I will tell you, I can tell you some of their direct quotes. So for one of the team members, who is a single mom, like we have two single moms. So one of them has been, so over the years, so this is a direct quote because I wanted their direct I felt it was not just the interview I wouldn't be doing it justice to the interview if I didn't you know bring the voices You know of the women so I wanted them to ask them from force for that we know for some courts so like So so for one of the staff so over the years she's lived in six different places And these included shared apartments basement rentals and at the point a townhouse
And each move came with its own set of challenges from affordability to discrimination. So recently she's had to move from a townhouse because the landlord within a month increased the rent by $500.
So to a basement, you know, apartment where, and it has been a very unpalatable experience for her. She has had two major flooding, you know, in her unit as a result of leakages from the washroom of the unit above hers. Flooding which destroyed half of her properties that could not be remedied, right? As a result of the dirty water from the washroom and the heavy flooding. So another one says,
It's housing, you know for her, you know housing has not just been For has a single mom to housing hasn't
Fadhilah
I'm trying to get her coat too.
So for her, Housing 2 hasn't been just about just a shelter. It has been about stability, dignity, and opportunity for her and her young son in Canada here. But the experiences has always been challenges, racial challenges based on gender and race for her.
And coming from Nigeria where she had that stability, it's been very challenging for her. And she hopes that they will create systems that would see these unique challenges and actively work to dismantle them for black women and gender diverse households.
Andrea
If it's hard to be a household led by a Black woman in Canada, it’s really hard to be a household led by two black women. Let’s meet Dara.
Dara
Okay, so my name is Dara Dillon. I'm originally from Trinidad and Tobago and came to Toronto, Canada in 2020 by way of the UK. I lived in Scotland for two years before that.
Andrea
I asked Dara to talk about her housing journey here in Canada.
Dara
Huh. Yes, I can. So let's start with coming to Canada in 2020. I came with, at the time, my teenage son. We lived in a hotel. We came two months before COVID. So if you could go back in your mind on Canada before COVID, just pre-COVID, early part, we landed the day after snowstorm in January.
Even though we were in the UK, snow wasn't to this extent. Depths of snow that we saw, we were like, wow. So we stayed in a hotel for three months. then because I was assigned to York University to do research and to go to school, I got housed in there with them the day or just a week before COVID. Because I remember going to Walmart and then after not being able to go anywhere.
complete lockdown. So that was fine. Stayed there for two years. By then, my partner moved to Canada. They were living in Europe at the time. Their contract ended and they came to Canada. And so we wanted to move out to a bigger place. And that's when everything to me came full, like really in my face as to how systemic discrimination can be. So...
Dara
We're both not from Canada. Obviously, we're not a heterosexual couple, so that also stood out. And then we both identify as black. And we've had investigations done when we applied to rent. Someone called my then employer and proceeded to ask a lot of personal questions about me to that person. They did not believe that I was working for that type of money.
They did not believe I was working there and so they felt that we didn't deserve to have a townhouse in Pickering to rent. That happened a lot, especially when we dealt with private landlords. We have not been able to purchase our property. We don't actually get anything from the banks or any financial institutions. We are scrutinized, questioned, investigated on every time, every single time.
And so after eight months of looking, we were just driving and we saw this sign and we got in and it's a development. The scrutiny was not there.
They were very friendly. They were very open. We still live there in that condo, that development. What we have noticed, it's predominantly immigrants or non-white persons living in this building. There's a handful of white identifying people here. It could just be that they are themselves the developers are immigrants. I'm not sure, but they're very open. will, credit score wasn't something they asked for.
They just wanted to know that you had the income that you can pay and you can get a space. They welcomed families. But at that point in time, after being denied so many times, we did not say that we were family. I came in as a friend and my partner and well, by then we had another child. My partner and the kids came so that we can get a three bedroom condo. And I just came as a friend that would be here for a while helping move.
Dara
So we never declared that we were in a relationship. I don't know if that helped or didn't help, but it's something that we've learned to do. Even when we go to any space, we normally just don't say that we are in a relationship. So we say sisters, cousins, friends, and just kind of leave that whole thing out of the, even if we go into the doctor. So when my partner was pregnant, same type of thing. Or I'm just a friend, a company in her, keeping her company.
Never. Because you get the looks, you get a lot of those things. So one of your questions would have spoken about the intersection of just being black and being a woman. And I think we have to add on some of the other elements of being an immigrant, accent bias, being part of the 2SLGBTQIA plus community. Those all of those things play such a crucial part in the deciding factor.
And so housing has been challenging. We are at this point, we've decided not to buy at all in Canada. Even if we could afford it, we did not like the scrutiny. I think when you know that you're doing everything and you're doing everything that society says you should be doing. To be policed in all sorts of ways is not the most comfortable thing. It really takes a toll on you.
And I think I want to kind of give a parallel to what I'm saying because recently I was working for an international organization and it got me the opportunity to go back to Trinidad and Tobago for a bit. And the salary was far more than I would have possibly gotten here in Canada. Two masters, 20 years experience and I usually only get internships or entry level.
but let's not talk about that just yet. And I got this really very senior management, senior leadership job in Trinidad. And within the first month, I was able to go to the bank. I was pre-approved and pre-qualified for a million dollar property, which I would never have a conversation like that here in Canada. I was able to go to a car dealership.
Dara
I have been to car dealerships here where people look at me with scorn. They say, no, you can't get a Lexus, you can't buy a BMW, you can't get these types of cars. But I was able to do that in Trinidad. Granted that I am from Trinidad, I have not lived there for quite a number of years. They look at you at face value as to what your documents say and what you say you do. And that was the most to me.
Dara
I think the word I'm looking for here, it was just eye-opening. It really just took some stuff off of my shoulder that I was carrying for years, that I didn't know I was carrying for years. I didn't understand what I was feeling for the last five years that I was here in Canada. And I'm not sane, and I don't like to compare these predominantly white countries, but I didn't even feel like that in Scotland.
Dara
The scrutiny that we experienced here in Canada was we were like, what is this? This is not how, this is not what we're used to and we've traveled a lot. We've lived in different countries and this, what we were experiencing here in Canada has us contemplating if we're remaining in Canada. Is this a place to raise your children?
What would our children experience when they are coming of age and they have to move into space? What would that look like for them?
Andrea
it feels like this is a lot more than the housing crisis so I asked Dara about that.
Dara
So, agreeably, affordability is an issue. But if you're speaking about big cities, densely populated areas, Toronto, Vancouver, you're speaking about those places that's understandable because comparatively, Geneva is expensive, New York is expensive, LA is expensive. These are big cities. They are expensive. So affordability is a discussion, yes. And I agree that that should be on the table.
But that is not the primary problem. The problem is the bias and the systemic discrimination that is embedded in how you get a place, in where you get to live, where people determine that you don't suit the look of their condo. We've gone to places downtown because we felt if we go downtown, we won't need a car. We can walk to everything that we want. We're still relatively young in our minds at least. You want to be a part of that hip crew. You want to be a part of the young upward mobile.
crew. And so downtown was something that we considered. The price point is high. At that time it would have been maybe $4,000 a month. You get two plus one, which is never a three bedroom per se. So that's one of the things. It's tight. The spaces are tight. They don't consider families downtown, or in most places, in my opinion. And then you have the agent that you meet. So the first agent that you meet
would have, they'd question you and they'd say, sure you want to live here? I'm sure we can find somewhere else in another area for you or another location. So that starts there with the agent. And then we go to the landlord's agent. That's a different type of discrimination that you get as well. So it starts with the first person you meet. So we did a deep dive looking for black identifying agents. Very hard to find.
Dara
very very very difficult to find in a country that has at least 1.5 million black people at minimum and you can't find a good black real estate agent there's no directory for you to look at there's nothing so we ended up on facebook group for renting while black there is a facebook group maybe about three or four thousand people there now so to kind of keep it close knit and you have to send a picture to show that you identify as black and we try to rent to people or places that we know that are open and really want to rent black people. And Andrea, we're just speaking about renting. We have not even touched the part about ownership. Because if we want to do that, we'd be here another hour because we have to also speak about just getting access to mortgage.
Dara
And that will take us to one of your questions about the mere fact that we're not getting the jobs.
Why would I only get an internship when I have worked for 20 years in senior leadership? And the most that you can offer me is entry level which means that my salary may not cross the 90,000 mark. Very rare. I've interviewed, I've gotten to interviews for that level. Never pass the interview. I don't believe it's my interview style. The last question I had posed to me in the interview I had last month was would I be comfortable not being a leader after having leadership roles before? But at this stage,
I think as a parent first and foremost, I just want a salary, fixed income, so that we can make some plans and we can do some stuff. So I said, yeah, I'm okay with it. I just want to work at this point in time. I have resigned myself to understanding that middle management, lower level management would be as far as I could get in Canada. And if not,
Dara
do what I have done, is open my own business, which is the next best thing.
Andrea
Originally I contacted Dara about the economic situation of black women in Canada. After researching her I realized she’s kind of an expert in everything. I asked her to talk a bit about her educational background and work experience. It’s pretty mind-blowing.
Dara
Okay, so in the early parts of my career, it was all private sector.
I think we call that quasi-government private sector. So it's similar to Canada in Trinidad where you have the government's hand in most things or agency of the government. So I worked in private sector, partly owned by the Trinidad and Tobago government. Moved up to middle management there. Had an experience, personal and also with a friend with an abusive partner. And we formed an organization called I am Power Foundation.
where we helped persons, and I don't want to use the word flee, but get a new and fresh start in life. So we provided housing, we also did micro-credentials so that you can improve if you are lacking skills, that you can get a job, and then we went deeper into helping you become entrepreneurs. One of the things that we would have discovered is that the difficulty in persons leaving abusive relationships, it's financial freedom. They lack that.
Dara
And many of them also lack the skills to navigate the work environment. But they do have soft skills or other skills that they can either cook, they can make something, they can do craft. And then they can do that from home so that they don't have to get childcare, which is also another challenge. And so we've kind of twisted it into helping them become small business owners, micro business owners, so that they can get financial freedom.
That then sent me to do a Masters of Business Admin and I did that in Organizational Development and a bit of Entrepreneurship courses to help lead those courses. I became a program evaluator by then, moved up the organization because the organization grew, we got people interested, funders, donors, domestic violence, intimate partner violence was, it's still very prevalent in Trinidad and in the Caribbean in general. Honestly, Love kind of took me to the UK and I followed my partner to the UK and I decided to do another Masters at the time while waiting on them to do their stuff and I got a research position because of my background already. I did strategic studies there in the UK is security studies in North America. So it's something like the CIA type of studies, understanding how policies are done, how homeland security works, how that type of thing is, how MI6 and MI5 works, and understanding also geopolitics. That shift came because working with intimate partner violence or domestic violence can take an emotional toll.
Dara
And I was frustrated with how things weren't shifting. The cult here of it wasn't shifting. Systems weren't shifting. You still can't go to the police comfortably and report and know that you'll be protected. And I really became despondent and disillusioned by it. And so I decided to do a complete shift to geopolitics. Then, and...
After we left the UK and my son told me about some of his experiences at secondary school there, I really went all the way into what systemic discrimination looks like. So I am a, I think a mix, mix here of what happened in life and then also what happened, what I learned in school. So I took a lot of what I learned with social sciences and business and brought that together with critical race theory, black feminist thought, intersectionality. Kimberley Crenshaw is one of my favorite writers and the things that she comes up with I really love. So, Kanga just merged all of that together. And I took as a parent what my son would have experienced, the bullying, everything that he went through that he didn't tell me while we were in Scotland, because he felt it more than I did. I took that and that Kanga just...built on that from there. To work in Canada, Andrea, and anybody else who knows, you need to have either Canadian education or Canadian experience. No matter where you come from, no matter what you have in your hand. And so while I'm at York University, I dabbled with urban studies. And I know you want to ask why urban studies.
Dara
At the time I didn't know why, I just felt it sounded like this has something to do with everything. A little bit of everything. There's a bit of urban health in it, public health. There's a little bit of housing in it. There's a little bit of sociology and how humans interact with each other. There was so much of everything. There's a bit of geography in it and I felt, this just sounds good. It's the best course I ever did. I met one of the most, I think, prolific lecturers, Abiruzi, Teresa Abiruzi, Professor Teresa. She was perfect. She understood the assignment of teaching, and she was passionate about what she was teaching. And she encouraged you to learn, to grow, and to be the best that you can be.
And from the jump, I started writing, which is what I did all the time, and I wrote a paper on how endemic systemic racism or anti-black racism is in liberal democracies. And I used Canada, and I looked at the education system, I looked at the housing, and I looked at the workforce. And that people got some awards and publishing, I grew from there. I connected with another lecturer, and she wanted to write on homelessness and the unhoused and criminalizing homelessness and wrote on VATs so I got published again with her and and that's how it grew. It grew from the understanding that this is not something that we can pung the pavement about. This is deeper. The policies, the way they're written and when I say language I don't mean that it's in English. I mean how confoluted the language is.
Dara
If you have a high school diploma, it's highly unlikely that you can read an IRCC paper or a form and understand what they're asking. I have to stop and think three times before I answer yes or no. I don't know if it's intentional that it needs to be this confusing for anyone, but it's difficult. Then we could talk about the societies or agencies you need to join.
to prove that you're an engineer or a doctor or a lawyer or even an environmentalist. It's just a lot. It's a lot of layers. And I think it's done so intentionally so you could never get out of it. You're just going to just be here, trying swimming upward, upstream, and never, ever get into the end.
Andrea
Do we know anything about differentiation and experience in Canada, or is it just being black? Because anti-black racism, as you pointed to, is a pretty deeply embedded thing.
Dara
Yes. I don't think that.
Arguably, I'd say that I don't think other groups understand there's a difference. Within the black community, we know there's a difference. We're aware of the difference. And some of the differences would be in Canada, primarily. The Caribbean or black people from the Caribbean have been here longer. So they're more established. We're more part of the fabric of the society than even those that came from the African continent. We've been here.
way longer we came as domestics before we established we have a lot more that are citizens primarily and born and bred in Canada so I think we're being a part of the community or the fabric of the community what is happening not just here because if you're following in America you're hearing this this kind of tit for tat from those are African immigrants and those are that African-American
And it's here, but it's not that loud yet. So the difference is those that come from the continent, in my opinion, are a lot more educated on paper. They're coming here with their degrees. And if you understand immigration and the immigration policy of Canada, most of us can't come here without at least a bachelor's. So we're coming here without at least a bachelor's.
minimum one-year work experience and if you have more you get more points. So if you have a master's you get a little more points, if you have more work experience you get a little more points. So you get these points that allow you to now become a permanent resident of Canada. You're entering here on the premise that I'm qualified, I have earned my space here and if
Dara
if we work the way that liberal democracies work and we deal on merit alone, I am to get the type of job that I am qualified for. And then we meet all the stumbling blocks that come with that, which would be you don't have Canadian experience.
So your immigration status is not an issue right now because you came in as a PR, because you have to do all of these things before. Most of us, at least my understanding is that most of the people that come from the African continent came like that. They came in their qualifications, they applied for PR, they came in. So when you come into the airport, you go to a special room and you get your stamp and you get your stuff and you have your sin that does not start with nine, which I only learned when I was applying to a job. A sin doesn't start with nine.
So you learn all of this and so they're coming here with that premise. I have met people who were bank managers back home and they are PSWs now.
Andrea
PSW is a personal support worker, people - generally women - who do basic care duties for older folks or those dealing with disabilities.
Dara
That is a job that even myself, I don't know. I don't know if I could have lived with it and continue to stay knowing this is what's happening to me. Knowing that I did follow the rules that is laid out in society. You go to school, you get an education, you make yourself qualified and so you will be rewarded. You will be rewarded with a job that pays and to live in Toronto, in my opinion, needs to pay you $90,000 a year.
minimum. That is to qualify for a three-bedroom. That is to at least own a vehicle. That is to go to Costco and Walmart. I'm not talking traveling to south of France every year. I'm speaking basics. 90,000 a year basics. That's one person needs to be making that. So that the other person could be making something else. So then we could travel to south of France for vacation. But so
You do all of that and you come down and you tell me that all I can do is do a three month course in a college and no name college is just built up on a second floor of kind of building. You go in there and you do this course and you become a PSW and now I am serving seniors and I have nothing against the senior population but this is what I'm doing after getting my degrees and running a branch.branch before coming here. Or I come here with two masters, first degree, I worked in an international organization, and all I can get is a call center job in a bank. This is where you see me.
and that's $40,000 a year, I could probably get a room to rent with someone else. I can't have a family with that money. I, I uh... What am I doing with $40,000 a year? When groceries are up here? So I can't eat healthy, I could probably get McDonald's, like buy a happy meal every day. Because that's within range of what I could afford. A coffee from Tim Hortons One.
Dara
They'll get too excited and buy a bowl or anything, you know? So, and then you're despondent, you're disillusioned. What happens next? What are you going to do? You're going back home? We are not, there are refugees here in Canada, but I would argue that most of the immigrants that came to Canada came as economic immigrants, meaning that they were already doing well.
but they wanted to do better. They came to the Canadian dream that was sold to us. Come to Canada, be a citizen in three years, you can get good jobs. No.
Andrea
I asked Dara about what safe, affordable and appropriate housing for Black women would look like and she gave a very similar answer to the other women I’ve talked to in this episode.
For Black women, housing isn’t just about a place to sleep — it’s about creating a home that reflects the way their families truly live. Their households are layered and intergenerational: mothers, daughters, aunties, and children often under one roof, working hard and caring for one another. Because of the challenges of economic access, many are juggling multiple jobs, deeply committed to keeping their families safe and housed — paying rent first, even when food or comfort come second.
Yet too often, housing systems don’t see their reality. They judge by credit scores that don’t tell the story or by narrow ideas of what a “family” should look like. The vision is for housing that recognizes this strength and connection — homes designed for care, for community, and for the way Black women build and sustain family.
Andrea
The last question I asked Dara is this
Andrea
So it's been a bit of a, like, like a tension, but a thread that's been moving through our interview. If you could change, if you only got, if you got a magic wand and you could only use it once, would you change the housing policies or the ability to access the economy fully?
Dara
Mm-hmm.
Dara
Huh.
Dara
Access. I answered that quickly. Access. Access is it. If I can walk into the bank and I can access stuff, if I can access it, let me know that when you say this policy is it, it's open for all of us. We're working with the way that the society is set up. We're in a society that's supposedly liberal democracy. We're building this on merit.
if you say that I can get it, regardless of how I look, how I identify, my voice, my tone, I can get it because I have all the things that you asked me to have, accesses it. If I get access, then... then we would have black landlords. We'd have black owners. We'd have black developers. Because then we got access to capital so that we can own things. And so then...
the space will open up. But we don't have black landlords, we don't have black developers. Which development? You know, condo development that is owned by a black person here in Canada. We don't own things, we don't have ownership. And without that, we don't have anything.
Andrea
We are going to close out this episode where we started, with Stephanie Allen. On top of all the barriers Black women face, there are very few elected to political office locally, provincially or federally. This is not surprising as political power tends to favour those with economic power…
But it creates the brutal situation where Black women end up depending on those who’ve benefited more than most from the uneven playing field in the current economic system to act on their behalf to change it.
At one point in our interview I asked her if she thought the Minister of Housing, either nationally or in our province of BC, could implicitly understand the challenges Black women face to access safe, affordable and appropriate housing.
Stephanie Allen
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, and I shouldn't say no so quickly. I mean, they might relate because I think we're we're learning more about how trauma shows up in individuals and collectives like we're learning more about that. And I think that's really important, but to deal with just the structural, you know, and, and I haven't had the chance to talk to them since they moved into their new roles, but
One thing that I would say and I maybe have said to them in the past is, you know, it takes courage to look at the system we have right now and speak truthfully about what is causing it and how to address it. And the reason it takes courage is that the people that are in the most powerful positions in our society
are content to let things go the way things are going. And the social safety net, such that it may have been, is tearing apart and more and more human life is falling through into circumstances and conditionings that bring great suffering, that impact us as a society. If people have to survive, you know, because they're deprived of the basics of life,
that survival is going to result in them doing things that we don't want to see in our communities. We say we want safe communities. And so I would really like invite them to consider the courage that it's going to take to be truthful about what the financial pressures are on housing and how that is kind of gobbling up the social fabric.
that we need to survive and to maintain ourselves as a culture and that it's going to take extreme courage and policy to recognize these root causes and put limits on it. It needs limits. You know what I mean? We can debate capitalism and socialism for infinity, I'm sure, but essentially we can't have systems that produce these outputs.
Stephanie Allen
And if we want to see human beings be given the human rights that they deserve, and the National Housing Strategy said that, you know, housing is a human right, then I would tell them that they are going to need a significant amount of courage and that it's going to take practicing courage every day in small ways, in little decisions in their lives across the spectrum in order to stand and look at this thing and
encourage the leadership that they're a part of to put the guardrails on, put the limits on, invest where investment is necessary, take the approach that every human deserves, a place to live that brings them some modicum of experience of love and joy and safety. And that means there's going to be some people that are very powerful that have
many billions of dollars that have to be encouraged to share and do their part of giving back to the systems that they have extracted so much from. And I know that that's not easy. And I know that that's the political challenge of our time is how do you go up against the very people that
are your donors and are the ones funding your political campaign so that you can be reelected and stay in power. But it's going to take something very different with the headwinds we're flying into. And I just would hope that they would, and I like both of them there. I met them and obviously in the times that they've served here in Vancouver, I think they're really people that have heart. Not everybody has heart that we met Andrea in this work.
Some of them have decided to shrink their heart and not use it in their work. But I would really encourage them to continue to exercise that space in their lives.
Andrea
Deep gratitude to all my guests today: Stephanie, Elvenia, Fadhilah and Dara. It’s one thing to live day-to-day with discrimination: it’s a whole lot more work to name the barriers you face and consciously confront them. I hope you’ll honour their effort by sharing this episode with someone who needs to hear them.
Give us a follow on whatever social media platform you use and of course tag @voice4 - the number 4 - housing on social media. Let's amplify the voices of Black women and advocate for equitable housing and economic access for all.
Next episode we will be carrying on this historical journey for women and housing talking to women whose ancestors came to Canada from Asia via a variety of journeys. Join us.
To close today’s episode, I want to thank the women and gender-diverse people across the country who had the vision to create the Pan-Canadian Voice for Women’s Housing—and the tenacity to keep it going. Because of you, we can imagine a future without the violence, poverty, and housing insecurity that so many have endured.
I’m Andrea Reimer. Thank you for listening to She.They.Us., a podcast from the Pan-Canadian Voice for Women’s Housing. You can find other episodes wherever you get your podcasts.
Before we go, I want to share a few resources—and a call to action. If you’re a woman or gender-diverse person who’s experienced housing insecurity but feel unsure about sharing your story, the Pan-Canadian Voice for Women’s Housing can help. We offer training programs to support and amplify your voice. Learn more and sign up at pcvwh.ca/training.
Your story is one of the most powerful tools we have to drive change. You can speak at a city council meeting, join a local housing advocacy group, or meet with your MP or Provincial Representative.
And if you haven’t personally experienced the housing crisis, we still need you. As many of our guests have said, allies are essential—and that means you. Share this podcast, use your voice, and help others raise theirs.
Thank you to Everything Podcasts for bringing She. They. Us. to the next level. Shout out to Jordan Wong, our Sound Engineer, Linda Rourke, Producer and Writer; Lisa Bishop, Senior Account Director; and Jennifer Smith, the Executive Producer. And my final two thanks. First, to my partner on the She. They. Us. project, Ange Valentini with the Strategic Impact Collective and the Project Coordinator, Monica Deng.