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Becoming sustainably human at work isn't a small undertaking. It often means letting go of systems and behaviors that don't serve us individually or collectively.
So what do we do? As individuals, as groups of folks, as leaders? How do we carve out space for our humanity while making sure we're not the only ones? How do we thrive in the workplace while not imagining we must be superhuman? How do we cultivate spaces that are generative and healing, creative and extraordinary?
I don't have the answers to those questions. And, to be fair, I don't believe one human can EVER have all the answers to those questions. I'm working through those questions every day.
This podcast curates for you a set of folks with an opinion worth listening to and sharing. So join me as I ask people I admire to share their wisdom with you in accessible doses.
Join me on my quest to become sustainably human at work.
The coming sustainably human at work.
Isn't a small undertaking.
It often means letting go of systems
and behaviors that don't serve
us individually or collectively.
So, what do we do as individuals,
as groups of folks as leaders?
How do we carve out space for our humanity
while making sure we're not the only ones.
How do we thrive in the workplace while
not imagining we have to be superhuman.
How do we cultivate spaces that
are generative and healing,
creative and extraordinary.
I don't have the answers
to those questions.
And to be fair, I don't believe
one human can ever have all
the answers to those questions.
I'm working through them every day.
This podcast is an invitation.
An invitation for you
to join me on my quest.
I've asked my teachers to
share their wisdom with you.
And here we are.
This is sustainably human at work
and i'm liz wiltsey I'm so excited
to welcome Toi Marie as she's been
a teacher of mine for a long time.
So thank you for being
here.
Oh, that means a lot, Liz.
Thank you.
Thank you for
asking me and having me.
Yeah.
So toy you run a community
called business for the people.
And so I'd love to just talk about what
it means to be kind of sustainable.
In a capitalist universe.
And what you've seen kind of in your
travels, trying to both run your business
and support others doing the same.
I want to say, I don't know
if it's, if we're able to be
sustainable in capitalism, right?
So they sell us this notion that we can.
It's sustainable for us.
It's sustainable for the
environment it's sustainable for
all parties and it's really not.
And we see that now that through the
pandemic, for those who hadn't maybe
not been studying any of this, or
really looking or choosing to look at
this, the pandemic has opened the eyes
of so many people to be like, wait,
what have we been participating in?
What have we been sold as sustainable?
But really is eroding us,
our world, our connections or
relationships and all the things.
So I don't think, you know, capitalism
is sustainable, but I think what
we can do is once we have our eyes
open now, so, you know, we see the
things we can't unsee them, right.
So we have to grapple
with what that means.
And for me in my.
It means that we tell the truth and
then we try to move a different way.
So it essentially means being curious
and it means being open to not having the
answers and trying to remember a different
kind of way of existing in our bodies
with the land, with our relationships.
And of course at work.
I think one of the things is, you
know, right now, if you look online
social media, even though a lot
of our conversations, business and
capitalism, and like wealth, these
conversations are just everywhere.
Like it is the conversation like
that's all people really talk about
is how do you build a business?
Are you an entrepreneur?
Do you need to make millions?
Capitalism has essentially
infiltrated our language.
And so if it's in our language so
much, then it becomes the norm.
Cause we're talking, we talk like
business, even when it's not like in our
relationships, we talk like business.
And so in my work, even in like
business where the people in that
space, what we try to do is bring
the humanity back to everyday.
Like, what is at the root of us
desiring to have this kind of
offering or have this kind of work
or this kind of business, what is it
really trying to sustain our build?
Is it, are we building something because
we financially need to be taken care
of, or is it in comparison to what
we've been sold as what we need to do?
Right.
So have we been marketed to so much
that we think we desire millions?
When we really don't.
And so we uncover and look at
these questions and then look
at what's that intersection.
And then how do we create
and be from that point?
Yes.
So one of the things that I try
to make sure we talk about is.
Like, if someone comes to you and says
toy, like capitalism just feels so big.
Like it all feels so big.
What are the first?
And I know you said, you know,
we talk about, we tell the
truth, try to move, get curious.
Like if someone were in there just a
regular life in their workplace, what
would you say to them in terms of
here's a little thing you can do, like
start doing that's just a little bit.
That's such an amazing question.
And I've actually been like, thinking
about this a lot, because when you think
about or hear capitalism, people are
like, what does that word even mean?
Especially now because so many people
are talking about it, but if you really
are like average person who isn't
teaching about this or needing to
learn about it, and you just are trying
to live your life, what does that?
It means nothing to me, but.
What I like to say is capitalism is
more than an economic system, right?
So people just like, think that they
don't need to know about it because
it's something you learn in college.
And maybe you read a book about it, but
essentially capitalism is a practice.
We practice capitalism every day
and everywhere in our bodies, in our
relationships and all of the things.
So I like to remind people that.
It's beyond an economic system.
And so if you stop looking at it
that way and start to look at it as
a spell that we're under and I want
to credit my friend, Jen lemon for
always going back to reminding me
that capitalism is a spell that we've
been indoctrinated and assimilated,
conditioned to believe as a way to being.
And so.
I always suggest people to just
be curious about where, what are
your capitalist practices that
maybe are in your world right now?
Like how do we navigate relationships?
Are we only dating someone
because they have money, right?
Are we only taking jobs because they're
going to give us a level of success
and then get us a class that is.
That falls into capitalism, right?
How are we showing up in our
families and our relationships?
Like all of these things
play into capitalism,
it feels like so often we're told
that if we don't have the answer,
there's something wrong with us.
And so that, like that curiosity
is something that we have to build.
Access to yes.
Right?
What helps you, I mean, cause in
your team, when you teach, you're
like I am a perpetual learner.
I am constantly learning these things.
How do you kind of stay in that mind
space?
I think because I have seen the benefits
of what learning and excavation.
I have done for me, not just like
in my mind, but like tangibly in my
relationships, like my relationship
with myself, with my body, with my,
you know, how I mother so I'm curious
to like interrogate really what
I've been taught to believe as true.
And I think.
If we think about critical thinkers of
like, not just taking things for face
value, but really being like, do I believe
that thing, does that really resonate?
And is that true for me?
I think a lot of times you know,
we grow up a certain kind of
way in a family and a location.
So family, religion our culture really.
Has this believe one thing.
And if you, and start to interrogate
that, sometimes you can feel like,
oh damn, I'm going to lose everything
because my worldview is going to shift.
And that, that can be scary.
And I will say that there are the level
of severance that happens that has
to happen when you start unlearning
so much of these things, right?
Because you just start
doing life differently.
You start believing things differently.
For me, the learning has really helped
me to be more embodied and to withstand
when there is certain severances
that have to, or have had to happen.
Like it's not easy and
there is grief there.
I think that's somethings
that we don't see.
Like if you're scrolling on social
media around, like you need to change
your thoughts and believe these things.
And that's hard, right?
If that means you're going to lose family.
If that means you're going
to lose friends, you can't
go to that place anymore.
Like that is a whole like identity shift.
And so, because I've been doing this for
so long like just really unpacking, like
what it means to be me, what it means
to be in my intersections in this world.
Like I can, I have a capacity for it, but
honestly you have to build up a capacity.
And that's what the learning has been
for me to like, read these books and
then be in conversation with like
my beloved and be like, okay, all
right, this is a new thought for me.
Are you still gonna
love me and be with me?
And I think find, being able to find
people who say yes to that who are maybe
on the same journey has been helpful.
I would have said to people did it.
It really only takes one person.
To reflect back to you that
like, they'll still love you.
If you go in a space, like
we think it's like 15,
it's not.
No, because who has time to
have 15 deep relationships,
no talking too much.
Can't do it well.
And you and I were talking a little
bit about the liberatory imagination.
Yeah.
Do you want to say more
about kind of how that
factors in to.
Credit Sonya Renee Taylor.
Cause I heard her say this on an IgE
live that she did a couple of weeks
ago around things like capitalism,
like specifically capitalism.
We think it doesn't have a root or.
We think that it's just existed and
this is the way it's always been.
This is why history becomes hella
important because we can look back and
track like when things pivoted and when
things shifted into this mode of being.
And so if we don't have the route,
we're like, there's no other way.
We can't see another way.
But if we can look back and
be like, what were they doing?
How did they exist before this now?
Was it perfect?
No, and I don't, like, I think that's
the tricky part, like not romanticizing,
how it was before, but looking back and
being like, okay, this was the journey.
What here, can we pull and
take with us on this journey
of like liberatory imagination?
And when I'm speaking about that,
I mean, how do we really get.
What is it like?
Cause we're really in a war for our minds
and our imagination and our consciousness.
Like What we believe is really important.
So being able to imagine and be
curious is how we birth new worlds
and then having people to be like,
you want to try this thing with me?
You want to see if we can do it
and collaborate and then, okay,
this can be a small space of
where we're seeing it possible.
And then we can move out and
maybe invite more people in.
And essentially that's what
business for the people is.
It was, it's a space for me to welcome
in people who are like questioning
and being like, alright, what's here.
What's possible.
Let's explore.
So, it's all about exploration and like
kids, if like, you know, I have four
boys, my sons are still really curious and
because they're not so much indoctrinated
into capitalism, they're not working,
they're not doing any of those things.
We lose that.
And so I think it's a reclamation
that we have to get to, to be curious.
And again, Yeah.
So my last question for you
is what are you grappling
with?
Oh, so many things.
I think one of the real big things
that I've been speaking to the love
it's about is love inside of these
systems and what it looks like when
you have certain values, when you
have certain perspectives, what does
that mean in our love relationships
and our intimacy and how much.
Do we hold to our values when
someone has different values than
us, or they're completely different
from the perspectives that we have.
Are we able to still be in love with them
and love them deeply and have intimacy
or are we being hypocritical and how much
of that do we need to hold and navigate?
I think because there's such binary
thinking like I'm pushing against
that and trying to be like, What
does it look like to be in love and
in relationships, knowing with my
eyes wide open and knowing so much of
these systems like what's possible.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Thank you so much for being with me.
I appreciate it so much.
Thank you for having me.
That was amazing.
Full show notes for this.
And every episode are available
at future proof skills lab.
Dot com slash podcast.
You'll find a transcript there as well
as links to everything we talked about.
Plus links to all the ways
to connect with Toi Marie.
In this episode, you heard toy talk about
the idea of the spell of capitalism.
You can find information about the
year long container she holds with
Jen lemon@spellofcapitalism.com.
I've mentioned it before
and I mentioned it again.
Toy's regular newsletter is one of
the few emails I make sure to read.
You can find that link in the show notes.
Thanks for listening