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Intersectional feminist conversations about doing work and life differently. Hosts Becky Mollenkamp and Faith Clarke talk with entrepreneurs, authors, and thinkers about capacity, care, bias, and burnout. We name the systems we're taught to ignore, and imagine what's possible when we stop performing and start being honest.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:00)
Hello! Welcome back to the series of interviews we're doing with just really cool people doing really cool things. And today we have another really cool person, Dr. Igoza Abizamawan Hamilton, who is a black mother scholar. And we're gonna talk a little bit about black hair because you have a book coming out. Or is it out?
Dr. Eghosa (00:21)
It's out. Came out in March, yeah. But the audio book
Becky Mollenkamp (00:23)
excellent.
Dr. Eghosa (00:24)
dropped, so there's that.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:26)
That's nice for people like myself who prefer audiobooks. So I'm gonna make sure I request it if it's not already in my library system. I
Dr. Eghosa (00:33)
Beautiful.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:33)
have a book out too that I've been doing a campaign to get it into libraries. So I'm gonna be returning the favor to other authors and making sure that their books are also in libraries. So your book
Dr. Eghosa (00:43)
No.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:43)
is called Articulations, A Radical Method Methodology of Black Pedagogy. And then I know the like subhead is around hair. So tell us about the
Dr. Eghosa (00:51)
Is yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:52)
book.
Dr. Eghosa (00:53)
Yeah, the subheading is Redefining Education Through Black Women's Hair Experiences. And the book is essentially, specifically I was looking at black women educators, but a lot of what I was doing was trying to integrate black hair into the conversation with intersectionality, where we often talk about gender and race, class, sexuality. but specifically for black hair, it's such an integral part of our intersectional identity.
And how we are like seen, treated, sexualized, paid. It's so many layers to it. And so the book is really my excavation into that journey, my own journey, my journey raising a daughter and doing her hair, my journey as an educator. And then I work with seven Black women educators over the course of four months to understand and see if there were some parallels with their.
hair journey and their teaching journey. How did the shifts in your hair impact your pedagogical approaches? So that's like the root of the work and like where I was going with that research.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:53)
Well,
I love it. The reason I'm I was excited to have you on is because we talk on this show and in our newsletter a lot around all sorts of issues of intersectionality. And I mean, we call ourselves feminist founders, although a little secret we're about to rename. Because I think part of that is that word is so charged, feminist, in that it has a lot of history around not being very intersectional. And while I've always been somebody who wants to kind of like
reclaim it as from this intersectional approach. And say I also we realize it's like it's alienating in many ways. but one of the issues we don't really we haven't talked specifically about is around hair. Hi Faith. This is Igoza. Faith, thanks very
Dr. Eghosa (02:30)
And he
Faith Clarke (02:31)
Thank you.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:32)
and so we we were just just quick introductions and saying that we talk a lot around intersectionality, Faith, but hair has not been something specifically I think we've really focused on. And so it was I'm excited to have that conversation with you. And
learn more about what because you talk about intersectionality in all sorts of ways. And what made it me what was it about hair specifically that felt like the window you wanted to look through this
Dr. Eghosa (02:56)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:57)
time in in this with this study and this work you've been doing?
Dr. Eghosa (03:00)
Yeah, I mean, really like much of my work, it was really my own journey. when COVID hit and the schools were shut down and I was home, I started my lock journey. And it was a journey that I wanted to start before, but was always hesitant because, you know, I'm going into work. I work work in a very suburban space, a lot of white teachers. I just was like, what what other judgments are gonna be placed upon me if I also have locks, right? Because locks have so many connotations that carry
carry with them. And so being home, I felt enough space and freedom to just do what felt good to me, which was starting this journey. And in doing that, I started to think about I started my teaching career straightening my hair, pressing my hair when I started and I moved into protective styles where maybe I was getting braids and different styles like that. And now I have locks. What has been the shift in my career? And when I started really digging into it, I was like, wow, when I first started I was
getting all these lesson plans and it was like, okay, if that's what it means to be a good teacher, like that's cool. I still sprinkle a little bit of me in there, but I was kind of like, what does it mean to be a good teacher according to this space? And then moving towards my protective styles, like now I'm getting a little bit more centered in who I am and bringing it to the curriculum. And then when I had my locks, it was just like I'm I'm centering blackness in my classroom and doing it in all these different ways. I'm making it normal to do so. It's not like an
apparition or an add-on, it's a permanent element. And that to me was really powerful. So the research was really like how else is hair functioning as a catalyst for all these shifts in people's lives, whether it's on the job or otherwise. And that's what began that work.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:43)
Well, and Faith, I'm curious for you because you so you don't know it goes up, but Faith for a long time, I mean you're she's from Jamaica, was living in America for a very long time and has just recently returned to Jamaica for we don't know how long, but for at least a year. And I'm curious, as you're listening to some of this, Faith, what's coming up for you? Because obviously I have a feeling I could be way wrong as the white person in the room, but I imagine the relationship with hair.
that you experience in Jamaica has been was probably very different than the r that same kind of external perceptions and things as in America. I don't know, I'm curious if that's true or not true.
Faith Clarke (05:19)
it's it's different, but not in the ways you would imagine. because it goes so like like you described, growing up straight hair is the hair to have. As soon as you're
Dr. Eghosa (05:29)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (05:29)
old enough to get your hair straightened, that's the aspiration. And then the constant struggle to keep it straight, whether that's because of you know, chemicals or the hot comb or whatever it is that you're doing, because my hair was the hair that just needed to look at the weather report.
Dr. Eghosa (05:47)
Mm.
Faith Clarke (05:47)
And then it
became a frizzy bob again. and so the I actually locked as I've I've had locks now for how old is my son? He's 27, so that would be 24 years I've had locks. And I I know I'd gone, stopped processing my hair because I decided I wanted to become pregnant, and I and I and I'd become aware, so still in Jamaica, but I'd just become aware of what are we doing to our bodies.
Dr. Eghosa (06:12)
Yes.
Faith Clarke (06:13)
Yeah, just like that that if the skin is the largest transfer organ, forget empire for just a second and the fact that they're trying to poison us. if the skin is the largest transfer organ, then what am I taking in with these chemicals? So I I kind of paused that, and it, but by the time my son was three, I went into a lock journey. But these are sister locks, and it was almost a sneaky way to hide locks.
Dr. Eghosa (06:36)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (06:37)
Because
for two years nobody realized that what my hair was not, I thought it was still braids. And I got away in church. Nobody was asking me any questions. because hair, Becky, not only is straight hair, you know, the hair you look forward to, but straight hair is almost morally right.
And so now in Jamaica, now that I'm back thirty, thirty-five years later, it's it's much more integrated. A lot of people wearing their hair naturally in a lot of different ways. And I my experience in this moment, I noticed that I am less fussy about my hair.
So when I
Dr. Eghosa (07:12)
Mm.
Faith Clarke (07:13)
was just three or four months ago when I was leaving, I was hyper-vigilant. I have some thinning spots because when you get to a certain age and there's the hormonal changes, and I have these thinning spots, and I was so, how do I make sure nobody sees them? And the moment I got here and saw so much different black hair in its natural form, like I relaxed and I was just like.
This is just the way my hair is, with thinning spots, and it's okay. So, yes, you know, environment plays a huge difference, but also just to appreciate that the colonizer project impacted us all. And I mean, Becky, you and I talked about the fact that you spent all this time trying to straighten your hair as well. and just this idea that we can't just let our bodies be the way our bodies are.
that we must be adjusting them to fit some kind of whatever, you know, is yeah, how is
Dr. Eghosa (08:04)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:05)
And I'm guessing it goes,
Dr. Eghosa (08:06)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:06)
these are the kinds of stories you've heard a lot as you've been doing this research.
Dr. Eghosa (08:10)
Absolutely, absolutely. I I when I did one book talk, I had someone from Nigeria talking about how girls they automatically cut their hair before they go to school. So they have to have their hair shaved off and some of the connotations around locks were if your child is born and has hair that is locked, that gets considered evil, all these things. And I was like, whoa, taken aback by all the the things that come across different cultures and obviously in South Africa,
The tests, the pencil test to see if the pencil slid through your hair, then you can pass. If it did it and it got stuck, then you are marked as colored. And then that shapes your whole the rest of your life, right? I think all these things are are relevant and important. And I think I really appreciate what you shared as well, Faith, in terms of like the part of my book I talk about the true cost. And that's both financially and physically when it comes to doing these things that we have been taught to.
do in order to make ourselves palatable, in order to get the job, in order to be considered beautiful. And a lot of those things, the costs in terms of health, right? Because no one really cares about what's happening to black women's bodies. So they are not caring about those products. The financial cost of upkeep that it takes and the toll in that way. and also the nuance of in interviewing these women, that some of them are not.
Just like passively accepting the colonial project of your centric standards, right? Some of them are like actively making decisions. In order for me to get this job to better support my family, I have to do this. And I'm doing that for that reason. And so that agency I thought was
Faith Clarke (09:48)
Exactly.
Dr. Eghosa (09:49)
really interesting too. in in my book, I talk about it as texturized code switching, where we talk a lot about code switching via language and having to make adjustments and being forced into
you know, speaking in ways that are considered correct. So with our hair, what does it look like? And the the the difference I think a little bit is just the understanding that so many women are intentionally making decisions versus I have an internalized racism around my own kink, kinkiness and all that stuff. So that was really dope to kind of understand and hear from them how they were using
straight styles to do that. Some are using protective styles. One woman said, I got cornrows so I can do my interview. And if they were acting funny, that's not where I'm supposed to work. I wore my hair specifically for that reason to know whether I'd be accepted in this place or not. So I think all those stories are really powerful. and what I want with this book is for women to think about those stories and how they're impacting their everyday lives.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:49)
I just am really curious about that one piece you mentioned about the internalized racism versus the intentionality and and agency of making the choice around the code
Dr. Eghosa (10:55)
We're going to
Becky Mollenkamp (10:56)
switching. And I'm just curious, is that a change? Because Faith, it kind of lines up with what you're saying about the difference 30 years ago in Jamaica versus now. And like, does that feel like it's been something that's been happening over the last few decades or even more recently?
Dr. Eghosa (11:10)
Yeah, in in my research, what actually was the correlation was the rise of social media. there's a lot of research on that. And because of the rise of social media, what was happening is instead of like I'm watching TV, I'm looking at magazines and I'm getting what they are telling me, I'm actually curating my feed and I'm following black women who do natural hair, I'm following black women who are dark skinned and wearing locks. I'm and so now I'm curating this whole space where I'm seeing a lot of myself. And so the
The social media rise also correlated with the decrease in chemical straightening, the increase in natural hairstyles, natural products. And so there is definitely some level of correlation there. and I think that's really kind of speaking to what you said, Faith, about going to Jamaica and feeling like, okay, you're seeing all these things, you're seeing people like this and not worrying as much. I think it's similar. Once you start to see yourself, your hairstyles, and it's not always having to be constricted and adjusted.
you will be more comfortable trying new things, trying different styles and the natural hair movement pretty much exploded shortly after the rise of social media.
Faith Clarke (12:15)
I think too that in terms of agency, the awareness of the white case and how you must perform for it is it's not it isn't just about internalized racism. It's about actual safety, actual protection of your resources, actually having your kids be able to go to the school you want. I have friends now who are worried, who have teens who want to wear guys who want to wear the big afro and they're going there primarily in white schools where that is is
Fine. Nobody's saying you can't wear the big afro, but parents, people my age who are who have lived through the cost of overt blackness, of looking too black, are just worried about reduction in access of support and resourcing and and then whether bullying or other things. So it it's it's complicated as you talk about the cost. It's not just about standing up for your
self being your full self. I think about my kids who were in a pre-professional course for many years and like they performed at Carnegie Hall and but there's a dress code and the dress code for performance is that the girls have to have the hair in buns and
Dr. Eghosa (13:21)
Mm.
Faith Clarke (13:22)
My daughter also at that time had locks and very, very she she, you know, aspirationally wanted to have locks like mine at the time. My locks were all the way down my back. And so so were hers. But you know, when you show up at eight o'clock for eight o'clock in the morning for a performance that's four in the afternoon, and you are a kid and you have to dress yourself, and there are people and dress you know, people are there to put your hair in the bun. Who's putting
Dr. Eghosa (13:47)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (13:48)
my daughter's locks down to her behind?
In this bun. So we had a whole elaborate situation that ended up in the six-inch circumference bun that had to be anchored in our head. It was like it's not gonna move. Don't let anybody touch it. Don't hit anybody up, you know, and and that's that's a cost. and when my when my son was kind of getting up in the chorus and they wanted the hair gel back, it was just like it's
Dr. Eghosa (14:14)
Yeah.
Faith Clarke (14:14)
not gonna move, it won't gel back.
Yeah, so
Dr. Eghosa (14:16)
Yeah.
Faith Clarke (14:17)
there's there's all this that is a part of the day to day thinking. That's again I Becky and I talk about invisible labor. It's it's invisible labor 'cause I when I'm thinking about my kid getting dressed for a performance, I'm not like, hm, what am I sending her with to make this possible
Dr. Eghosa (14:32)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (14:33)
if I'm not gonna go there, you know? So
Dr. Eghosa (14:34)
Mm-hmm.
A hundred percent. And it's invisible labor that ultimately it does it doesn't it doesn't always, you know, we we are trying to support someone in the study talked about like toxic generational programming where they did their hair all the time, straighten chemical, and but the parent is trying to protect them when they're going into school, when they're going out into the world, right? But also the acknowledgement that, you know, what's the case that's happening? Nolan Wells, I think is the name, the young man, like it
Whatever we do to try to protect our children, by way of being black, they are at risk every day. Whether we straighten their hair, whether they're wearing their furrow, whether they're wearing their locks, they're always at risk. And so that's type of like our bodies as parents don't ever really fully get to be settled, right? No matter what we do. And I think that's something to acknowledge as well as people are navigating the different ways to do their hair and trying to up meet all these different complexities.
also the acknowledgement that just being black in this country is coming with that risk regardless.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:34)
Well, and I'm glad you named Faith that invisible labor because it's what I was thinking about as you all were talking. It was just the this additional, like the calculus that's going into an everyday decision on how you show up in like specifically in the workplace, as I'm thinking about it, but anywhere, that you know, women, obviously just women, already have that calculus around what am I gonna wear? How will that be perceived? Where's what how much skin am I showing? What does my body look like? Am I showing up as professional by male standards and all of that?
And there's this added layer, right? And this is where we get into intersectionality. And what you're, you know, the the gist of your whole work here, Gosa, is this idea of the intersectionality is this additional layer then that as a black woman you're bringing into that, this additional calculus that's having to go into all of those decisions that we as white women are not having. Certainly not to that degree. I I was listening to your podcast, and you and your partner were sort of saying, I don't think white women
Have this relationship with their hair. I don't think they have these thoughts. And I'm certainly as a white woman sitting here thinking, like, I mean, you know, sometimes I think about is my hair looking a little too messy today or, you know, whatever it might be, but certainly not the degree of what you're talking about and not the concerns around safety, advancement, those sorts of things. So it's just that these are those layers that we're talking about that I think often white feminists and white women who care, who, you know, who wanna be good.
They don't always understand. Like, this is that additional labor that's always sitting there. It's always sitting there for you.
Dr. Eghosa (17:04)
Yes, yes. It's like a lot of you know, as a mom, my kids may be gonna be four soon. and you know, I have my husband, a lot of parents talk about the cognitive load that the women carry in the relationships, you know, thinking about all the appointments, making sure that all the paperwork's in, future schools, etc. And so for for parents to think about that transference doubling, tripling, quadrupling for black women as they navigate the world.
That's that's really what it is. It's every move we make, every space we're in, this is what we're carrying, this is what we're thinking about. and I think if people acknowledge that more, then we can also offer better supports and pushbacks and disruptions across the board.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:46)
Well, in Faith, you mentioned that we had been having this conversation around my hair yesterday as we were talking about you coming on and I had just taken she had just saw me with my raw, wet hair out of the shower, and I have a natural wave. Now this is day two, so it's fallen and I don't have all of my wave, but I have naturally wavy hair. I wish I wouldn't call it curly. but I went
through a big period in the 90s when the standard had really like it was you had to have this stick straight hair, right? And I was hot ironing my hair every day, trying to get as thick as as stick thin as I could and
like you, Faith, the second I see the weather report, my hair's like, shink. It's like, nope, we're gonna we're frizzing right back out. And so it would drive me, I was like, I don't know how to get this look, right? And I just remember the time wasted on that. And then I finally was like, I'm just gonna have my natural hair. And and then we're in this then this whole thing started to happen in like the 2010s, I would say, where the Kardashian, which we can there's a whole lot to say about that, but this look that that sort of like
look of you know rounded figures and full lips
Dr. Eghosa (18:44)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:45)
and this appropriated sort of look became the look. And so then white women were like, well now I now curly hair became the thing, right? Like how do I get the curly girl hair and all these products for white women for curly hair. And it's just been very interesting. And I was saying to Faith yesterday that like I feel like as we're seeing the GLP one and the the the the move back towards this like scary
Dr. Eghosa (19:06)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:06)
thin versions of bodies, I'm wondering how long before hair follows.
So I just I'm curious about your thoughts on that too, Egos. and I didn't mean to cut you off, Faith, if you wanted to ask something, but just kind of those the cyclical nature of of the s the beauty standard.
Dr. Eghosa (19:20)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (19:21)
But you know, Becky,
as as you're as you're asking that question, I was just seeing the cycle of beauty standards and then seeing black folks. Like there's a way that it doesn't matter what the cycle is, we can't catch up and we can't measure up. So we must, you know, we will have 15 alternatives to the one in style.
And some of that is about black style. And Ecos, I'm I'm really curious to hear what your research was. But I just as as we said, okay, when pencil thin here comes the straight hair comes back, what will we do? We will still have tons of labor around either straightening or wigs and weaves or or pushing back. We will not be just part of the wave.
We will be moderating, mediating and creating around it. some of it is going to be fashion and style and some of it's just gonna be straight up work.
Dr. Eghosa (20:20)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (20:20)
But I yes.
Dr. Eghosa (20:22)
Yeah, exactly. Exactly that. And I was even thinking, like, even though with the rise of social media, there's this kind of push back to the natural, we also have the Black is Beautiful movement in the 70s, right? We have the civil rights and all the the groups that were wearing their afros as resistance, quite literally. there was, I think it was SNCC, which was the youth activist group who started thinking about hair because they were getting hosed down by the police. And like, now we're getting wet. Our hair is getting wet. We have to think about
So there always will be black people trying to mitigate. And as creative beings, right? Black people being creative beings, hair I think is a extension of our ability to create any and everything, to learn informally and formally and do amazing things. I also see when you mentioned Kim Kardashian, I I think it's something I talked about with my students, I just think we have to also like
understand when someone like Kim Kardashian wears cornrows, is on a magazine cover and is praised while simultaneously black women with cornrows are being criminalized, we have to like acknowledge that type of like insidious movement from media, from people to create this like
space where we're taking advantage, we're stealing from, while also marginalizing the very people that we're doing that with. And I think that I say insidious because it is a way to try to rewrite a story that supports whiteness, colonialism, patriarchy, by doing that with folks like that. And we also talk about that with hair color too. Like me having green hair is a very different connotation than
Becky, if you were to dye your hair green, probably, right? In terms of how people are perceiving who I am and what is ratchet for someone like me versus someone like you, if that even applies, right? And so I think all I say all that to say that this is why I want hair to be equally part of the conversation, because the connotations, the criminalization, the sexualization, the types of
Oppression that comes from just looking at hair for black women is critical and important.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:34)
there's just this weight of all of the decisions and the thought the thought process has to go into something seemingly, I think for a white person, as simple as your hair, where for me it's like, don't want to cut it long, do I want to cut it short, whatever? Like, you know what I mean? It's just it's a very different.
math again. But on the other side of that, as I was listening to your conversation about this w on your podcast, Black Women
Be which I was saying I hope you bring back. But you and your partner in that show were also again talking about like white women not having those same thoughts around it. But then there's also this beautiful side that I want to highlight because you know we can talk about a lot of this stuff and it's like, this is heavy. And
I think there's also just this really beautiful part around black women's hair that I think white women don't have. I mean, there's a little old ladies who show up every week to get their hair styled, maybe at the salon. But in general, like for I think a lot of white women, the salon visit is like a once every eight to twelve weeks. And it's a very different kind of experience than I think black women have with hair around like community. That hair is a piece of
community, that that I don't think white women experience. And I think there's there is, it seems like, real beauty in that as well. So I'm wondering if you could speak to the community element of black women's hair.
Dr. Eghosa (23:48)
And I
Becky Mollenkamp (23:49)
Because I I I think most white women probably can't really relate.
Dr. Eghosa (23:53)
Yeah, I mean, one I wanna highlight, there's a research on hair therapy, which is essentially like the kind of community and talking through issues in life that happens in the salon. And so there's research kind of centered on the salon in that space and how community was. And you know, me being a 80s baby, also like before phones took over everything, I have very
strong memories of being in the salon and the chatter, the conversation. Also the barbershop, you know, like my dad used to take my little brother to the barbershop, also the barbershop. It's a little bit different now because people are so in their own kind of worlds. but it was a beautiful space. I think for my own experience and work, community also look like going to Nigeria and having like, you know, 10 people doing my hair at the same time, whether it's taking down the braids or putting them in, community is
Me being home with my child and looking on social media to find styles for toddlers and trying to do it, trying to learn from other black women and just what it means for my mother to have learned how to do hair in Nigeria, come and do my hair here, and that kind of generational passing on of the knowledge that comes with doing hair, but also like the stories that are shared between people as they're getting their hair done, the time I I
Because I my mom is no longer here. I talk about it as such a critical memory point because there's so many hours where I was sitting between between her legs, getting my hair done, getting my hair braided, or she was chemically straightening my hair, or flat ironing and I was jumping, trying to avoid the heat from, you know, because it's old school. You put it on the stove and you know. but it was like time. It's hours and hours we spent together talking, sharing, just whatever. and I think that's
really beautiful and and like I mentioned before also the creativity that comes with doing black hair like I when you look at cornrows and you look at the the mathematical equations that are happening to create these perfect lines it's beautiful when you think about the hair shows where people are just creating art with hair. there's an artist who has locks and she just literally does art with her hair where she's creating images through it. It's just beautiful and I think
For us as black women, how we can hold on to that like tradition, the the history that is built into our hair is is is so important.
Faith Clarke (26:17)
I have love-hate relationships with the salon, but the community
Dr. Eghosa (26:20)
Uh-huh.
Faith Clarke (26:22)
element of black hair, so I used to, I also used to do hair like as a side hustle situation.
Dr. Eghosa (26:29)
Okay.
Faith Clarke (26:30)
But also I did my my grandmother did my hair until I was like enough of you, you know, I had to learn my own self because it's like a she was heavy-handed. and
as I so I've I've become my hands are comfortable with hair. And so
Dr. Eghosa (26:43)
Mm.
Faith Clarke (26:44)
as I got older, then it was just a a way to do different things. so with my clients though, because it was locks, it was four to five hours. It was often at night. I'd show up, I'd go to their home. So I'd show up at seven o'clock and we'd set up all the shows that we hadn't watched that we're gonna catch on. She set
Dr. Eghosa (27:01)
Yes, we have it.
Faith Clarke (27:03)
up
food and we're
Dr. Eghosa (27:04)
Yes.
Faith Clarke (27:05)
she made sure of my cushions and our thing and she's between my legs or she's on the ground, we're watching TV and so
Dr. Eghosa (27:11)
Yes.
Faith Clarke (27:12)
catch me up is who in college? What's going on with them? And this, you know, and it was so it was this uninterrupted time of connection. Nobody's
Dr. Eghosa (27:20)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (27:21)
going anywhere. There are a good 500 locks on this head. We're gonna just we're gonna
Dr. Eghosa (27:26)
Yes.
Faith Clarke (27:27)
and I think that there is something about the
the heart to heartness of that kind of experience. When I used to have braids, I had braids again down to why. Why did I have braids all the way down? But these braids were crimped. So you know instead of doing the plat situation to make it curly, the crimping irons, you just like this three hours. You're just trying to get crimps into the length of it. But there is entire life happening. Who's talking about herbs? Who what what are the modalities people are exploring? And so just the yeah, the one
paid writing gig I got was because I walked up to a person and I said, my goodness, what product are you using in your hair? And black women have that as a starting conversation all the time and we're not offended. And we got into it and she was an editor for a magazine and we started talking. And so I think that there is that communal connection. We understand
Dr. Eghosa (28:17)
Yes.
Faith Clarke (28:18)
it and it goes it goes straight into the heart when we start through our
Dr. Eghosa (28:22)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (28:22)
hair talking about life.
Dr. Eghosa (28:24)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I think that's historically rooted as well. You know, when we were brought over here from Africa, you know, the hair styles were a symbol of family, of status, of communities that you came from. Like they they literally held all of that with their styles. And so I think we know historically our hair is much more than just design. You know, there's something,
ancestral about what's between our strands.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:55)
Yeah, that's such a that the term like crown, and I hear that often, like that idea that I just don't think I mean, I think even the white women who spend the most money and the most time and all of that just don't have I mean it's not rarely I think is a woman spending four or five hours getting her hair done, right? Or and ha and that kind of thought process around it. And again, like you said, there's all of this stuff with the world around you, but there's also such an incredible opportunity for like
Community and expression. and how where are you at now in this journey? I know you said sort of started around 2020. So you're like six years into this journey with this particular way of expressing yourself. But on your thoughts around hair as expression and for a liberated kind of way of showing up, like where what's your thought process around that now?
Dr. Eghosa (29:43)
I mean, yeah, I mean, I think for me what I tried not to do in the book is be super prescriptive that you have to have locks in order to be the liberated person, right? It's not necessarily that. I do think what came up is you have to know your hair to know yourself, right? You one person in the study said you at s you know, they hadn't seen their natural hair till they were like twenty-two, I think, because they have been getting it chemically
relaxed since they were three years old. And so she was like, you have to see your natural hair. Even if you choose to continue to do that, you have to be in community with it at some point to really know who you are. So for me, I have done all the styles, you know, I I never did weaves and wigs, but I've done all the protective styles. I've done the chemical, I've done the straightening, blow drying. But for me, I felt at home with my locks. And so when I walk into spaces now,
Always still evolving, right? I'm not at the pinnacle of the end of the road. But I feel like when I walk in, I am me. This is you're getting this, like authentically, head to toe. I am a black woman, a mother scholar who is rooted in my community. And I'm my purpose, the way that I'm walking, the alignment that I have is to support black people, black women, black girls, and and every room that I go into that is at the forefront. And I think.
I became rooted in that once I began this journey. I think I always am known. I've always been like interested in I talk about, you know, in 99 when I when we had newspapers and I saw the Amadou Diyalo was shot, you know, 20 something times or what it 41 times, 19 bullets hit his body. I remember that. 99, I'm a teenager. I remember the visceral impact of that and like my thinking around what it means to be black in this world.
But to really walk in that every day is more of a, you know, twenty twenty-one and on type of thing. I think before I've always learned to silence it when necessary to survive, to be muted in spaces that I know I'm already, you know, because I'm as an educator, I'm in a lot of white spaces, often, right? And in higher ed similarly. so for me it's it's no longer shrinking.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:04)
I love that. You I read somewhere in researching you and I don't remember where, but I remember a quote from you or something, maybe it was even with your book where it says, I am my hair. And
Dr. Eghosa (32:13)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:14)
when you're talking about that, I sort of get that feeling, but I just wonder if you could expand a little bit on what you mean by that feeling of I am my hair.
Dr. Eghosa (32:20)
Yeah, I did there's a article published in Harvard Ed Review called I Am My Hair and it's like my journey through all these different styles, Bantu knots, locks, press. and really it's you know, Erica Baudu came out with that song, I Am Not My Hair, and I remember loving that song. Like that is a great song. And I am my hair, quite literally. It's not I am not my hair, right? She was trying to say, Don't judge me because of my hair. Don't think about it like that. But I'm saying, no, think about it like that.
This hair that sits on my head is me. In that particular article, what I'm doing is kind of what I started out telling you is that I it's basically I call it the Bantu Knot Theory, where each piece of my journey comes together to create the whole picture. And so I walk through what I was doing as an educator when I was straightening my hair, what I was doing when I was protective styles and teaching, and then what I started doing with my curriculum and locks. And so that is why I say I am my hair. I literally was shifting.
as a as a person and educator as I was shifting my hairstyles. And so it's really just saying I'm intimately wedded to this four C texture that holds all these things, that holds my relationship with my mom, that holds my own history. I'm Nigerian as well. So all of those things.
Faith Clarke (33:33)
It reminds me of and I'm not against coloring hair. I colored my hair black. My dad had grey.
For as long as I have memories. So he was in his thirties with his hair gray. I had more gray hair than my mother had when she passed. So I have had been coloring my hair jet black for a minute. And and then I remembered, you know, mixing the color and finished and applied it in the bathroom. And then noticed that left the activator. I hadn't put in the activator. Yeah. I was wondering, is this gonna it was was a c
What's gonna happen, you know, and for a moment just feeling like I want to release this labor, but I also I earned every one of these gray hairs. I you know, I have a I have a very youthful looking face, courtesy of my grandmother, and I was like
What if people knew I was older? And so there's a way that wearing my hair not colored, wearing my grays is also for me a statement of, yeah, no, I've been on the planet for a minute and
Dr. Eghosa (34:41)
Yes.
Faith Clarke (34:41)
and I am happy with all of them. And
Dr. Eghosa (34:45)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (34:46)
and just yeah, to to just be it it's an for me it's an expression of my freedom to be able to just like, yep, this is
This is what the hair is doing right now. Somebody in the supermarket here stopped me and said, Is this yours? And I was
Dr. Eghosa (35:00)
You heard
Faith Clarke (35:01)
like, Yep, I grew all of them. I grew it.
Dr. Eghosa (35:04)
Yes.
Yes. Expressions of liberation. I love it.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:09)
I feel like gray hair. Okay, so I'm also on my graying journey as I've stopped coloring my hair many years ago now, and it's starting to come in. And I do think that that might be, and I know prefacing this with all of the I know it's not the same, but I feel like it might be the closest that a white woman might be able to come to understanding some of this stuff that we're talking about here around perception and the way our hair pr it affects the way the world receives us and and advancement opportunities and all those things, because I think that is calculus that.
That white women often do around do I color my hair? Do I go white? Because obviously in a patriarchal world, let alone a white supremacist one, youth becomes a calling card, right? That becomes a a ticket towards advancement and career and all of that. And so many women, white women, are constantly with that battle of do I color my hair or not. So I feel like that's a place where white women might be able to find some thread of understanding. And I I say that to say, what would you want white women who are listening to this?
to especially in the workspace, to know, to think about. I obviously I think that piece around the labor the invisible labor is important, but is there anything we haven't discussed or that you just want to really drive home for white women listening to this who are maybe it's sort of their first understanding around just the the layers and depth that are involved in the discussion around black women's hair.
Dr. Eghosa (36:28)
Mm.
First, don't touch. That's I I wanna say that. That's something that came up with the study, you know, the the curiosity that leads to the touching. I taught it in in my work I call it disembodied voyeurism because there is comfort, pleasure, in touching talking about black women's hair in ways that I think are unacceptable with other parts of the body for anybody, right? So that's
First. second, I wanted to touch on part of what you say with white women too, is hair is very much tied to femininity for white women specifically. I think black women, it's a little bit different because we we don't often get that access to femininity in the way that white women do, right? We are often you know masculinized, we are often ungendered, and so
Femininity plays a role with the grays and the aging. I think we're getting closer to kind of understanding the weight of hair dictating what you can and cannot do. I think in the workplace, outside of, you know, the disembodied voyeur voyeurism, I also think it's important to note sometimes I think as white women who want to be on the right side, there's
Ease of acknowledging, like I see that this is challenging. I see that maybe you're being stereotyped because of your hair, your skin. And what it means to be a co-conspirator is to actually do something about it, right? I think I I work with folks and sometimes like, that's so terrible that's happening. Like I see it, I hear you, and I feel terrible about it. And what are you gonna do to make things easier? What are you gonna do to use your privilege as a white person to ensure that.
The the damage that is being attempted to be done to me is stymied. so just in this society, I can acknowledge that being a woman is a marginalization and being white is a privilege. So how are you using that? And particularly for white women, womenness sometimes gives you access, and I'd say specifically in education, gives you access to spaces, right? Like social justice,
As a white woman is easier to access than for me as a black woman. So once you get into those spaces, make sure you are doing what is necessary to bring black women with you to challenge and disrupt those who are trying to use their power to dismiss, to extract. And I think that's when we become, you know, powerful in our alliance and the solidarity that is necessary to kind of really reject.
White supremacy, colonialism, patriarchy, all the anti blackness.
Faith Clarke (39:00)
I I
I I hate it when we are we're linear and so I just want to also say
That I don't want white women to hear a conversation about here and try to help me with the labor around here. Like that that when when we talk about some of these different topics, I think there's advocacy and action that's needed definitely in the area.
and also to to Igosa's point about your point about this this broadening, this is about patriarchy, this is about anti-black racism, it's a bigger picture. And if you understand that I have this labor, so my kid is in the hospital, and by day two their hair looks like bedhead, that is my labor, but you can do some advocacy and activism on behalf because you know you also know that doctors aren't listening to me.
Dr. Eghosa (39:53)
Exactly.
Faith Clarke (39:53)
So if you
can be my white friend in the hospital while I'm trying to help my kids here, there's a way that understanding the labor that we carry means that there are their pockets that you're well suited to step into that
Dr. Eghosa (40:05)
Exactly.
Faith Clarke (40:06)
we don't have the capacity to step into, you know. And so, yeah. So as as you were talking, I was just seeing my friend whose kid had a surgery for a brain tumor. And I'm just, she has a big afro, you know, and I'm just
Yeah, it's the the hair is a section of the work, it's significant and also we we just need people around us kind of filling in the other spaces we can't because we're involved
Dr. Eghosa (40:31)
Exactly.
Faith Clarke (40:32)
in the labor of our lives.
Dr. Eghosa (40:33)
Exactly. Hundred percent.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:35)
I love that. Is there anything that we didn't talk about that you want to make sure we did talk about or anything as we've had this conversation that's come up that you thought, ooh, let's make sure we also hint to that?
Dr. Eghosa (40:45)
I students who know me are may judge me, but I have to also say, you know, I am enjoying seeing some of the media complexity with black hair. And specifically as some of my students and I, we watched Love Island and seeing having that show been on for, you know, 15 years or whatever it is, seeing black girls come in with their hair braided, versus trying to manage a a wig for six weeks that's bone straight.
seeing what's it called micro braids on Cynthia Revo and Wicked and that being a big, you know, film. just what's the movie coming out? Children of Blood and Bone coming out next year, which is set in Nigeria and all the different textures. There's a black woman who was in charge of doing hair on on set. And so there's afros, there's locks, there's sister locks, there's you know, bald cuts. I think the
exposure via media is increasing and I'm really happy to see that. It should be more, but like the tidbits that we're seeing now compared to when I was growing up, although we had a stint in the 90s with like Poetic Justice and Moesha, where they're you know braids. But I think, you know, the the scandal hairstyle is what I saw most of the time, you know. And so I'm I'm I'm happy to see that kind of shift and I'm hoping just having these conversations. Oprah did a documentary
With Tracy Ellis Ross as well, called Hair Tales, where they were talking to different celebrities around their hair. and I remember an episode with Ayana Presley, who lost her hair with alopecia. And so even not having hair, it's still part of the conversation in terms of like what that means as well. And so I think I what I'm trying to say is I'm hoping that more dialogue around this, more exposure, will allow us to elongate these conversations.
and center them in ways that just allow black women to acknowledge the role that hair is playing in their lives and adjust accordingly.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:44)
I love that. Thank you for sharing and being part of the conversation. And I have to know for people watching and not listening, what does your sweatshirt say? Justice for
Dr. Eghosa (42:52)
black girls.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:54)
Okay. I wasn't sure what it was for. I love it. That's perfect too.
Faith Clarke (42:57)
anything
new that you're doing, what's next for you?
Dr. Eghosa (43:01)
that's a great question. I think I just released the Audible for the book. So that is on. And so for folks who want to listen to it, and the person doing the audible is a black woman with locks and it's her first time doing an audiobook. So I love that. that's really exciting. I'm still in the midst of the book because the book came out in March. So just trying to like connect with folks and reading groups. I've
dropped a reading guide as well. So if you want to read in a book club, there's an entire guide that kind of takes you through questions, overviews, activities that you can do as you read the book. And I have a paper that just came out called We Be Audacious. And it's really myself and a friend talking about maintaining our audacity in education. And we talk about moving through K through 12 graduate school and now having academic
appointments and what it means to try to keep that intact in an institution that is inherently anti black. So that's that's the quick and dirty that I can think of. I appreciate you asking.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:01)
I love that. I love the word audacity, most especially
Dr. Eghosa (44:03)
Right.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:04)
for folks who aren't white men. So I think that's fantastic.
Dr. Eghosa (44:07)
Exactly.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:08)
Yeah. Thank you so much. I will make sure if you send me the the reading guide and whatever else, make sure we'll put all those links especially.
Faith Clarke (44:15)
The DOI of
the of the public latest article and stuff, yeah.
Dr. Eghosa (44:18)
I will
do that, yes, definitely. Thank y'all.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:18)
Yeah. So we'll share
all of that in the show notes or the description or wherever you're getting this. And I really appreciate you being here. Doctor Ihosa. Yes, thank you.
Dr. Eghosa (44:25)
Thank you so much. Thank you so much.
It was really good to be here and thank you. It was good to meet you, Faith. Appreciate your shares.