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Hosted by Jared Correia, Legal Late Night is a weekly, pop culture-infused romp through the latest & greatest business management ideas and technology tips for lawyers, featuring engaging guests, and constructed in the format of an old school television variety show.
Jared Correia (00:00):
Hello everybody. We've got another show that promises to be mildly interesting for your listening and watching enjoyment. First, the AI takeover of search continues. I mean the AI takeover of everything continues, but you should be aware of what's happening in online search if you own a business, including a law firm business. Then we've got Nick Werker of answering legal. He's here to answer our legal related questions. I mean, that seems perfect. Finally, Nick helps us to figure out how much the weirdest jobs in the world pay. So what's been interesting to me personally and to some of the folks I've been talking to over the course of the last, I don't know, year or so just about is the relationship that Google Search has had with ai. And yes, I know there are other search engines and yes, I also know that most people don't care about those.
(01:07):
So August, 2024, Google does this core update, which is basically focused on content quality. And what that did was that fucked a lot of law firms, like a lot of law firms, especially small firms that had relied on blogging and content production, website updates to try to generate business. A lot of the folks I talked to is their traffic online was down as much as 50%. There are leads for suffering. Now the good news there is that most law firms actually do their best business in referrals and generating referrals from referral partners and from former clients. So it didn't really kill their revenue, but it definitely hurt their search traffic. Now the thing you should be aware of is Google is leaning even further into prioritizing content and AI features within their systems. So if you've been doing Google searches over the last six months or so, you probably noticed a couple things.
(02:12):
Well, you've noticed at least one thing is that there's this AI overview feature now in Google, which is basically at the top of most researchers results, you've now got this AI overview that's been produced by their regenerative AI engine, right? So I'm looking at that, what do I see? I see a summary of the topic I have searched for and I've also got links to specific websites. So check that out. Sometime do a search for a question a potential client of yours would have. What you're going to see is that there are a lot of law firm blogs covered, and in some cases when there's not a lot of content on a particular niche search or a long tailed keyword search, what you're seeing is Google's just like, maybe you should go talk to these attorneys, which is kind of staggering because now if you've done a really nice job building out your website, producing content effectively, having a content marketing strategy, getting a lot of backlinks, well guess what?
(03:13):
Now you've got sort of a free ad on the top of the real paid ads in Google. Now I think they're going to turn that around in a little bit, and you're not going to see these sort of ads functionally in the AI overview, although there will be ads available in the AI overview and they're already experimenting with that. But take a look at that, try it out, see what happens. See if you rank, see if you are included, I should say, in those AI overviews. So that's the first thing to be aware of. Next thing to be aware of is on the left hand side of the screen, you've got something called AI mode Now, which you can click into, you don't have to, it's not going to show up for you automatically. It's still going to look like the right U search tab.
(03:57):
But on the lefthand side, you're going to this thing called AI mode, and that's effectively a conversation that you can have with a generative ai. It basically give you a version of the AI overview and then you can iterate with it. You can have a conversation and you say, well, what about this? And what about that? And can you refine the search in some way, which I think is actually awesome. So the problem with Google search from me or any web search has always been if I fuck up my search some way it's not refined enough, now I got to go back and edit the search. Even if I'm putting parameters around that search, I have to edit the search or I have to conduct an entirely new search. I can't work within the constructs of the search results that just popped up really. But with generative ai, now I can have a conversation with the search engine and be like, Hey, I need this, or I want to refine that, or I was actually looking for this and that's great.
(04:52):
This is going to be very dated. But remember the library? Yeah, when you used to go to the library and you were looking for something, you could look around the library for a little bit, but get, this is fucking crazy. There was a human where you could be like, Hey, I'm looking for stuff on this topic. Can you help me? And you could have an actual conversation with that person. Now I know humans don't talk to other people anymore. I get it, but I guess the generative AI tool is close enough. So this is really helpful I think, and to me, this is a better version of search than the traditional web search. Now that's a good thing because this is what search is going to be. I get news for you, there ain't going to be any more Google AI mode. Google AI mode is going to be Google full stop.
(05:46):
It's going to be the same thing for any other search engine. Now the other thing I noticed over the last couple of weeks or so is AI overviews are now in the people also ask section of Google search results. And if you dunno what these are, scroll down about maybe like a third of the way down the page on a lot of searches and you've got this. People also ask section which are related searches that people have actually done. So first of all, this is a great way to generate content for your business, but it's also a good idea. It's a good way to explore more in a certain topic area. Now when you have the people also ask section, they've got the search question, and then if you click the carrot, you'll see the actual response to that. And so it used to be just generic search results that appeared or generic text.
(06:37):
Now the AI overviews are also of the people also ask section. So there's another way for your content to be featured. It's kind of crazy the speed at which this is picking up. And I think a lot of people have not necessarily delved into it or noticed it yet. So that's why I wanted to address it. So it means two things for you really. One is that leaning into organic content makes a lot more sense, and that's always been something that lawyers could be very good at if they put time and effort into it and through some effective keywords in there. Second piece is you're going to have to be aware of how search works in an AI world for legal consumers. If you want to be able to market to legal consumers effectively, and even in some cases your referral sources, Google search is going to become AI search.
(07:31):
So is Bing. There are already AI search engines like perplexity that people are using. So there's a lot of stuff out there in search that you need to be looking at. And if you have a digital marketing agency that you work with or warrant, start working with one. Talk to somebody who does this every day and they'll be way more on top of it than I am. Google search is dead long-lived. Google search next, pick up the phone, it's for you. And it's Nick Werker of answering legal. We promised he won't just make heavy breathing sounds into the receiver for several minutes at least. I'm pretty sure he won't.
(08:21):
Well, I've effectively run out of things to say, which is awkward because we're only two thirds of the way, one third of the way through the podcast. So I'm just going to run away. No, I'm not. I'm just fucking with you. That sounds awful. And let's be honest, I'm not running that much anymore. Now we're going to interview our guest, but our guest had a request, so I'm going to say this now. My name is Jared Kria and the legal tech is kind of my bag like James Brown. Papa's got a brand new bag. All right, enough foreplay. We've got Nick Werker, the marketing director at answering legal Nick, the hardest worker man in show business.
Nick Werker (09:07):
I have a lot of nicknames that have to do with my name Werker Bee Twe. That's unfortunate.
Jared Correia (09:15):
This is a little bit of a weird thing for me because you had this everything except the law podcast, which I'm not sure if that's still ongoing or if it's in hiatus, but you've interviewed me probably like a dozen times, but this is the first time I get to interview you. So I'm personally very excited.
Nick Werker (09:35):
I'm very excited. It's on a hiatus. It will reemerge at some point in the future. And then we will interview you for the 13th.
Jared Correia (09:43):
Oh hell yeah. Exciting. Alright, so let me start here. If we usually like to start with people, we like to do the origin story. So how did you talented Renaissance man like yourself come to work for answering legal in this marketing director
Nick Werker (10:01):
Role? Marketing director role? Okay, I'll give you God's honest truth. I spent two years at an upstate SUNY university. Hell yeah, the SUNY system. I'm well
Jared Correia (10:15):
Acquainted.
Nick Werker (10:17):
I did not go to any of my classes. I had other activities on my mind. And so I came home to beautiful Long Island and attended Stony Brook and my friend's family was starting a company about an answering service and I asked, I swear,
Jared Correia (10:36):
Oh, I didn't know this. I'm glad you're going through this. Keep going,
Nick Werker (10:39):
Dude. I don't know how I ended up here. It's like one of those things where inception, if you can't remember how you got there, it must be a dream. So I don't know how I got here. And so this is all fake. So they're starting this company. I'm like, what is it? They're like, it's an answering service. I don't understand the concept at all. They're like, but you need a job because otherwise your family's going to hate you for living at home and doing nothing. So I came to work here, long story short, I was a terrible, terrible salesman. And they were like, well, we have absolutely no marketing, no website, and people don't believe anything that we tell them about our business. So you should build a website and do all that stuff. 11 years later, I think I have some tiny semblance of what it takes to do marketing for B2B and talk to lawyers and help them capture more leads and run their practice more effectively. But that's really it. I tripped and fell into
Jared Correia (11:41):
This. That's crazy.
Nick Werker (11:42):
And that's it.
Jared Correia (11:44):
I never knew that that was the case. I had no idea you were friends with somebody who was starting this company. Okay. When did you start at answering legal? How long ago was that?
Nick Werker (11:55):
So they started it, I want to say the end or the beginning, March of 2014. That's what it was. And I was officially kicked out of my SUNY school. When do you get kicked out? September. And so I went to work for them in November of
Jared Correia (12:15):
2014. So you actually got booted from the suny and then simply
Nick Werker (12:20):
They delightfully put me on
Jared Correia (12:23):
Probation. Was that Stony Brook? Did you get kicked out?
Nick Werker (12:25):
No. Stonybrook kicked out
Jared Correia (12:26):
Schools.
Nick Werker (12:28):
No.
Jared Correia (12:29):
Okay. I mean this sounds like the origin story. One of the deuces from Steely Dan, I'm not going to lie, I don't know
Nick Werker (12:37):
The origin story, but I do. I love steely. This could have gone. And so finally I get one of your musical
Jared Correia (12:42):
References. I know that's because I'm old. That's why no one guess my musical references. So one thing I glossed over when I was doing the Nick Werker origin story is what does answering legal do for those? Curious
Nick Werker (12:56):
For anyone curious anyone answering legal, it's a full service call center you could really call it that specializes in handling phone calls, delivering messages, and making sure that the appropriate parties get access to those messages. For law firm owners, law firms across the US basically means that we act as your front end receptionist and help you basically put all of the information that you need from your intakes wherever they need to go. So your CRM, our mobile app, where else do people put messages in their case management softwares, all that sort of stuff. We also do, we have a consultative approach. So it's like how should I ask these questions? What questions should I ask? When should I call them back? What automations do you have that can send outbound text messages? So anything that you can probably think of, we have a solution for as far as answering your phones and making sure you're communicating with your clients.
Jared Correia (13:58):
That's very good. So virtual receptionist service, but a little bit more than that, I would say. Oh yeah. Basically it's, let me rephrase a lot more than that. How about that? That's better. I try use that in the marketing copy. Alright, I want, I should. Anything new going on in answering legal new products, new features, offering, tell the people, the people demand
Nick Werker (14:19):
More information. Two new things. First, I will tell you a story. Oh, please do. In my time as a very unsuccessful salesman here, I talked to a law firm owner. This is true. This is 10 years ago. I talked to a law firm owner who was in Connecticut, and he said he liked me a lot and I swear to God I didn't get the deal closed. And he liked me. He would call me just to talk and I'd be like, are you ready? And he'd be like, no, he's, you're just friends. Every time I swear I'm out of the office one day I get a call, I'm like, yes, I'm finally going to get a sale and not lose my job. And he's like, I got to tell you every time that I want to hire somebody for my law firm, I'm very tech forward and the way that I think is very tech forward. So I try to do that with technology. And I had this thought, I wanted to hire somebody to answer my phone in Spanish, but I want them to be able to be on a call with me and translate for me. Can you do that? And I was like, I'm going to try and make it happen. And I couldn't. And so I lost that sale. I wish I could remember that guy's name so I could tell you and out him for not buying from
Jared Correia (15:34):
Me. That is really
Nick Werker (15:35):
Funny. But we have this thing now where on demand, you can get a translator who will sit on your consultations or meetings or depositions, whatever kind of thing live you have to do live in 186 languages.
Jared Correia (15:51):
Oh wow.
Nick Werker (15:52):
I swear they just did one in,
Jared Correia (15:54):
That's six more than I speak
Nick Werker (15:57):
Only six. Wow. Well, I'm the translator, so I speak all 186 and I just stay amazing four hours a day. So there's that. And then we just released, which I still think no one is going to believe me, which is fine. You can call me and ask me the same thing. A free AI powered intake chat bot. So a little web chat on your site. We train it specifically for your firm, so it has all of the information about you that you can possibly give to me. And it performs an intake on anybody who comes to your site and also answers their questions. Now I'm sure if Jared visits your site, he might have some additional,
Jared Correia (16:37):
I'm going to fuck that thing up, but I won't visit the site. Don't worry.
Nick Werker (16:41):
I've tried and here's a good one for you. So I did a test with this chatbot, right? And we built it for somebody's website and it was like, oh, who are you contacting us on behalf of? Because I said I wasn't the person.
Jared Correia (16:57):
Yeah.
Nick Werker (16:58):
And I said, my dog as in my friend. And it was like, I swear it said, well that's a very unusual circumstance. And I was like, you know what? I'm kind of
Jared Correia (17:10):
Impressed by that. That's such an AI response though. So did you do dog like DAWG, like this is my boy, my dog.
Nick Werker (17:16):
No, I think I wrote D-O-G-D-O-G, but I
Jared Correia (17:19):
Just clarifying.
Nick Werker (17:20):
Yeah,
Jared Correia (17:21):
You try that next time. I
Nick Werker (17:22):
Think maybe it would've had better context if I did DAWG. It would've been like, oh you're frank,
Jared Correia (17:27):
But I said my dog. Alright, those are available now. Both those features
Nick Werker (17:31):
Available now. So the live translation service is called legal video calls. That is a paid service. You don't have to be an answering legal customer to get that.
Jared Correia (17:41):
Oh, okay. So standalone product. That's good to know.
Nick Werker (17:43):
Standalone product. It's $15 for 15 minutes of translation and it's $15 for minutes translation when you go over. So it's just a dollar a minute. And the AI intake chat bot, I swear is free.
Jared Correia (17:57):
I believe you.
Nick Werker (17:59):
If you're not a customer, you can have it. If you are a customer, you can have it. We build it for you. It's really easy. You just give us a bunch of information and what you want us to ask the people who visit your site and then you can test it and it's pretty sick.
Jared Correia (18:12):
Does it have a fancy name?
Nick Werker (18:15):
No, I wish that it did have a fancy name and I am the marketing guy and I wanted to name it something like absurd. Yes,
Jared Correia (18:24):
We can workshop
Nick Werker (18:25):
That. I think we're still working through that. They're like, no, we're going to go live without your absurd naming conventions for things. Come on and just offer this. Come on guys. Yeah, come on. You got to know. Somebody's got to reign me in.
Jared Correia (18:39):
I got one more answering legal question for you. I'm sort of impressed that you've been at the same place for 11 years, 12 years. That's a real deal. You're kind of on the Gold Watch program. How do you stick around at a company for that long and then why don't you leave? Because people change jobs, they change underwear at this point for being honest.
Nick Werker (18:59):
You know what? So it's truly that I've been friends with the family who owns it and it's still family owned That's awesome
Jared Correia (19:06):
Here.
Nick Werker (19:07):
And they treat me kind of good. And I know people probably say this, shout out to the team that I work with specifically Tony, Giselle, Tyler and Joe. They are some of my favorite people in the world. I don't want to leave them. And my whole life is here. I live here with my wife. We have a pretty cool life together and I like who I work with and no one has really come to me and been like, Hey, here's a boatload of money for you to leave. So I'm still here.
Jared Correia (19:42):
That's awesome. Joe. I engage with regularly. I think he's a good dude.
Nick Werker (19:48):
Joe's a good dude.
Jared Correia (19:50):
Lemme ask you. You've got answering legal, you do intake stuff. Let me ask you that. You probably get questions like this all the time. Do you have best practice tips for law firm intake? I
Nick Werker (20:02):
Bet you do. I really do. And I go deep on this, so I'm going to try and not talk your ear
Jared Correia (20:09):
Off. Well, let's see. Let's do the 30,000 foot overview and then we'll get deep on it if we need to.
Nick Werker (20:14):
30,000 foot overview is if you don't have an outlined process for intake, you don't do intake at all. That encompasses what your plan is for when your phone rings, what your plan is for. When somebody submits a web form, somebody talks to a chat, sends you a text, sends you an email. If you don't have a standardized approach on how you're going to engage with that person, you don't do intake. And largely I exist in the world of helping you answer phones and making sure that you call people back. I can't make you call anybody back. So when you get a bad review about, I called them three times and I got 'em as a referral and no one ever called me back, it's not on me. So stop complaining, but I'll say this, your type of case, the person that you're trying to help.
(21:17):
But the one thing that I'm really down a rabbit hole on is I've talked to thousands of lawyers and a lot of them have the same complaint over and over again. I'm sure you do have this too, is Oh, I get all these phone calls and the cases are no good and the people they can't afford it or they can't this or in personal injury, it's so crazy. They're like, oh, help this person. And I'm like, but you don't know if you're asking the right questions and it gives me a headache. And so the best example that I've seen of this lately is somebody posted this on LinkedIn and I'm like a LinkedIn troll, lurker, crazy person. And they wrote something about asking deeper questions.
Jared Correia (22:01):
Okay, yeah. So let's get deep on this. How do you do that? I think a lot of law firms struggle with this.
Nick Werker (22:08):
So standard legal intake is like, oh, say it's personal injury, what's the injury that you sustained? And they'll be like, oh, my back hurts. I have back pain and I went to the hospital and they did an x-ray and X, Y, and z. And the person or the law firm will be like, oh, well they're not in a lot of pain. They're not this. They're not that. Like, oh, it's not really a good case. It's this. And then somebody wrote, they ask, is there something that you can't do now that you used to be able to do because of the injury? Is that a better question? Oh, I have trouble walking up and down the stairs and I have to do that for my job because I work at a catering hall and kitchen is down. That's
Jared Correia (22:54):
A great question.
Nick Werker (22:54):
I used to do catering a lot and the thing was downstairs you get along from steps or part of my job is I'm a pipe welder and I can't work for a few hours a day. My buddy's a pipe welder. Then you're like, oh, this person is actually injured because you're not asking the right question to get the right answer from the person. If you're just saying like, oh, so-and-so my toe hurts. Yeah, well that doesn't give me the full scope of what's going on and I understand that and stuff like that. But I see all the time people will be like, I hate that people answer. They call my firm and they ask me these questions. And so from now on, you have to do this crazy questionnaire in order to get, okay, cool, but that's not a good way to conduct your business.
Jared Correia (23:41):
This is great. So this is another thing I hear from a lot. There's this, you got to thread this needle because some people, they want, I think most attorneys would be like, let me get this person hooked into my business and I don't want to ask too many questions. That's going to piss 'em off and they're going to go find another law firm. But then I want to get information and do I ask those questions later? So initial intake, is there a sweet spot in terms of the number of questions you ask? What can you hold off on and ask later? What are your thoughts on that? Do you talk to people about that too?
Nick Werker (24:17):
A hundred percent. And this is where I go back to where we're consultative because this is more of a common problem than I would even think because if you spend time online, you're only really interacting with people who are online, chronically and tech solution oriented. So people will ask, how many questions should I ask? What questions should I ask? And I think the most important thing to get in contact with people is like, what's your name? What's your phone number in case we get disconnected, cover that base. And then I would start with the, I always say four to five, but the four to five most important facts that you need to know about the particular type of area that you're talking about. But it shouldn't just be a questionnaire. You shouldn't be like, check yes if this check, make it a conversation. You know what I mean? Why are you calling me today? Oh, well this was the scenario that happened and let people talk, not just ask them yes or no questions, otherwise you're just bombarding them with questions like, this person doesn't understand me at all, isn't listening, doesn't care about my
Jared Correia (25:24):
Issue. They want to be able to be like, yeah, I have an issue that you didn't even help me with. Now I need to get that off my chest. That's a big deal.
Nick Werker (25:30):
Think about if you call the plumber, they wouldn't go through a checklist of is it your pipes? Is it this? Is it that you call them? They'd be like, oh, what type of problem are you dealing with? And it's like I clogged the toilet again because I like to use dude wipes. Shout out to dude wipes sponsor of Jared Re's podcast. If not, you should sponsor 'em. But I like to use dude wipes and they say they're flushable but they're really not. And now my whole set pool has collapsed.
Jared Correia (25:59):
Now this whole thing is fucked. But I have to ask dude wives, what is that all about? Truly? Do you know Liquid death? You ever heard of this? Liquid death is like a drink, isn't it?
Nick Werker (26:14):
But I'm big into marketing and so it's a really hilarious way to get toxically masculine men to use scented baby wipes.
Jared Correia (26:26):
Is that what it is?
Nick Werker (26:27):
Okay, dude, you can go to the store and just buy flushable wipes and don't do that because it's bad for your cesspool, just don't do it. But dude wipes, again, I'm really into marketing.
Jared Correia (26:39):
It's baby wipes. Is that really what it is?
Nick Werker (26:41):
I swear to God it's just baby. But they're super expensive because think like ax body spray, you could just get that's crazy. I don't know, a normal deodorant and you don't need $7 can of smelling like a high school locker room.
Jared Correia (26:55):
This is like a thing though. It's just marketing At the last version of the show, they also have this deodorant that you can use on your nether regents, same type of thing, which I don't know, I don't need all the parts of my body to smell good. Alright. I think they'll just out with anything to make money. We should probably transition. Let me ask you this. You've talked about AI chat, which has been around for a little while, but now you're seeing ai, virtual receptionist services. I don't want to get you in trouble, but I'm sure you guys are working on that at some level. Are attorneys interested in that? Are they trying to use that? Is that ready for prime time? What are your thoughts on that?
Nick Werker (27:41):
So I've tested a bunch because to your credit, we're working on it. Here's my take, and maybe I'm just an old school, an of guy is, I think not if you're using dude wipes. Anyway, go ahead. I'm not paying extra money for some scented dude wipes, but I'm old school and my true belief is that especially with AI and firms that aren't using AI and the whole jump scare of your competitors are going to outwork you, I think the people who are going to go the furthest in the age of AI are the people that deliver the best customer service and have the best brand and customer service is part of your brand. And so that's like human to human interaction still. It's not that it's not ready for prime time because CallRail is a really good example of somebody that has an AI voice and you can use it to answer your phones and it's a way cheaper solution than paying a human to do it. Because think about the cost of hiring somebody that knows how to do all the shit that chat GPT knows, right?
Jared Correia (28:47):
Or they could speak 187 languages just as a tool.
Nick Werker (28:50):
Exactly. Yeah. Do I think it's ready for prime time? It's really close. I've tested a lot of them that are really close and really customizable. Obviously it's way cheaper for me. I think right now AI is the hot topic and everybody wants to use it and it has so many practical applications and to your credit, we're working on something that'll come out eventually when it's ready for us to do it. I see it being a hot topic and then people getting burned by it and running back to traditional virtual exceptions.
Jared Correia (29:29):
My big concern is attorney client relationships and I think it is obviously much more difficult to control an AI tool and put rails on that in terms of am I giving legal advice? Did I tell this person I'm representing them and maybe we never have an intake call. Those are my big concerns. I dunno if you've shared those concerns or if you have others, but those are two of my big concerns with ai, virtual reception.
Nick Werker (29:55):
I've tested a bunch and I'll tell you, I ghost called other people's voice AI crap and it's not perfect. And it sounds like ai, it's not fooling anybody. They tried to make it sound human.
Jared Correia (30:11):
Right. We're still a little bit in the uncanny valley as well to your point about customer service and branding.
Nick Werker (30:17):
Yeah, I could prognosticate all I want. That's just my opinion. Again, I've seen a bunch of really impressive ones and I know people are having success with it for sure, but it's still, I got to tell you, I know what the cost of it is and I see what people are charging for it and it's like, sure, it saves you money, but you don't understand what margins are happening on the back end of it.
Jared Correia (30:46):
Can we do something totally different? For my last question for you. Sure. You posted the other day on LinkedIn about mental health issues that people in general and attorneys have, and I think that's a big issue with attorneys that nobody likes to talk about. Nobody wants to talk about being depressed or upset or whatever. Do you have tips for attorneys who may be experiencing mental health issues and how to get out of that?
Nick Werker (31:14):
I absolutely do, but I'm only going to speak from personal experience.
Jared Correia (31:17):
That's fine. And we can extrapolate. I don't know if a lot of people know this about me at this point, but before I started my consulting company, I worked for a free consulting services in Massachusetts and basically we had a psychiatric component to that. So I see a lot of lawyers come through, they'd have practice management issues, but the thing is a lot of that was based on some mental health struggles they were going through. So the floor is now yours.
Nick Werker (31:43):
I appreciate that. Obviously this is important to me. I'm a person who struggled with depression, anxiety, burnout, all that stuff, and I also exist in a world of a 12 step program where a lot of the calls that I get are people that are dealing with a lot of those similar issues and not wanting to be here,
(32:11):
That sort of thing. So I have experience with it. I'll say this, that what works for me is all the stuff that people tell you to do that doesn't sound like it's going to work for you. When you're in it, you're like, I don't want to fucking meditate. I don't want to get a therapist, I don't want to go outside. I don't want to eat healthy, but I'll make it really simple. Do one thing for yourself, one thing, and see how it feels, right. Reach out to one person and see how that affects your mood. I started with a three minute, it's called Emergency calm on the Comm Act. There's free stuff everywhere.
(33:02):
There's cheap therapy, and if you're a lawyer and you're really struggling, I have a really good relationship with a few people. The legal burnout solution, which is Cynthia Sharp and Becky Hallett. Dina Lefkowitz put me in touch with a wonderful woman named Courtney Skolnik, who is a former practicing attorney turned mindfulness coach at the Jefferson Mindfulness practice. And there's a lot like I Will is out there for lawyers. There's a lot of organizations that will help lawyers learn how to live better lives. And I'm going to be so real when I say this. If you're a lawyer, you have enough money and if somebody you cared about was suffering, you would enable them with money, time, energy to help them get better. You have to do that for yourself. I had to put it in perspective that if my wife or my dog were experiencing something, I love my dog more than anybody in the whole world. I would pay out of my pocket to make things happen for them. And so I had to invest in myself and if you need any pointing in the right direction, I am always available. So call me, email me, and I'll help you. Hey man, that's
Jared Correia (34:20):
Awesome and I appreciate your willingness to talk about it because not everybody wants to do that.
Nick Werker (34:25):
I appreciate you asking me about it because that shows that you're a real one.
Jared Correia (34:29):
I try to be, and then like you talked about, there's tons of resources out there. There are also some free state-based resources as well. Alright, will you stick around for more fun in our next segment?
Nick Werker (34:40):
I think this will be even more fun. So yeah. Great.
Jared Correia (34:43):
Thank you. We'll be right back with Nick. Welcome back, everybody. That's right. We've arrived at the counter program. It's a podcast within a podcast. This is a conversational space where we can address usually unrelated topics that I want to explore at a greater depth with my guest. Expect no rhyme and very little reason. Nick, in keeping with what we talked about before, I named a segment after you we're calling it hard work. Work WERK, because I love punts. Okay. The object of the game is simple. I'm going to name a job title and provide you with a description of the work, and all you have to do is pick from three options to tell me how much someone makes doing this job. Pretty easy, right?
Nick Werker (35:35):
I love it. It's like the price is, except for
Jared Correia (35:40):
I'm not confident, except for not at all. Okay,
(35:43):
I got six for you. We'll start with the least aggressive and we'll roll down from there. Okay. Job number one is a bed warmer. Bed warmer. Here's the description. In some high class hotels, particularly in colder climates, a bed warmer is a human person who literally gets into a guest bed before they do to warm it up and they may wear a special jumpsuit to do it. I've never come across a hotel bed warmer before and I don't know if I would want one. I think there are probably better ways to do this, but that is an actual job.
Nick Werker (36:22):
I feel like you could just have the mattress have some sort of heating apparatus in it. But I'm going to say because rich people,
Jared Correia (36:32):
Are you just going to guess the rate of pay without me even giving you examples or suggestions? Kudos to you if you are.
Nick Werker (36:40):
Oh, you're going to get the options. That's right.
Jared Correia (36:41):
Oh yeah.
Nick Werker (36:42):
No, I'm not. No, I'm not going off the
Jared Correia (36:43):
Dough. So does a bed worman make $34,000 a year? $52,000 a year or $80,000 a year? 34 52 80 in US currency
Nick Werker (37:00):
Bed
Jared Correia (37:00):
Warmer.
Nick Werker (37:01):
I'm not going to lie to you, and this is my same opinion that I was going to say before. Rich people will pay extra money, I think to exploit people.
Jared Correia (37:13):
Oh, sure.
Nick Werker (37:14):
I'm going to say, let's do it. Eat the rich that the smartest of us in the world have figured out that only you need to lay in a bed and have excess body heat for the low price of $80,000.
Jared Correia (37:28):
Oh, good guess, man. That was great reasoning, but it's 52,000. Okay. Alright, let's move on. Iceberg mover is the next job. What to come in handy Back in the day with the Titanic iceberg mover, this job primarily carried out by the Canadian Coast Guard and private companies involves using tugboats and other specialized vessels to tow or push icebergs away from shipping lanes and oil rigs to prevent collisions. Seasonal job, as you might imagine, how much should I make as an iceberg mover? $25 an hour, a hundred dollars an hour, or $150 an hour. Iceberg moving. That's a
Nick Werker (38:07):
Big range.
Jared Correia (38:08):
Yeah, it's a wide swath. I
Nick Werker (38:09):
Know Jack wouldn't have had to let go of the wooden plank, and I bet that the funding from this comes from the Jack and Rose Foundation,
Jared Correia (38:20):
Memorial Foundation. Yes.
Nick Werker (38:22):
Yeah, I bet you Leonardo DiCaprio donates a portion of his very large income every year to this. I am going to say that you need a big amount of equipment, and again, I'm going with because you picked option B last time, a hundred dollars an hour to move icebergs. 25 bucks an hour.
Jared Correia (38:43):
Can you believe that? Shit, that's nuts. To move an ice
(38:46):
Iceberg. Yeah, it's crazy. You got to go. I learned this the other day. Hopefully not a lot of icebergs have to be. I've been watching a lot of Titanic documentaries on YouTube to the chagrin of my children, but basically the Canadian Coast Guard goes out and they map where the dangerous ice areas are in the North Atlantic. So basically they telegraph shifts and they're like, Hey, don't go in these areas, and when they don't, there's been no iceberg related crashes for the last 120 years or whatever. So maybe it is just not a thing that people do on a regular
Nick Werker (39:22):
Basis. It's also iceberg Education has come a long way. We know now that it may look like this, but it's really like this
Jared Correia (39:29):
Iceberg education. Yes, sir. All right, we're going to do five. I'm going to skip one. I like this one better. Here's our next job. Hot dog leg inspector. Do you want to have a guess at what that is? Would you like me to read the description?
Nick Werker (39:43):
Yeah, tonight. Okay. Hot dog leg inspector is one of those people. It's a real job. No, I'm going to make this up. I'm actually going to make this up. They moderate social media for people who post their legs. Oh shit. Did ever see this shit? That's good
Jared Correia (39:58):
Stuff. Yeah,
Nick Werker (40:00):
They moderate social media and make sure that you're not posting some nude content. Too high censored sites. Shit too high up the leg and they make sure that they are hot dogs, not legs. That's what they
Jared Correia (40:13):
Do. That is an excellent guess. Unfortunately, nowhere near what it actually is, but this is kind of gross. I learned this the other day. So a leg on a hot dog is an uneven end of the hot dog or a bulge at the end of the hot dog, which is just nasty. So basically what these people do is they take the hot dogs and they will review occasional hot dogs as they come down the assembly line and they will snap them to make sure that they have the right snap that you're supposed to have on a hotdog if you break it in two and they look for these legs and they take 'em off the assembly line basically. It's basically just quality control.
Nick Werker (40:52):
That I love Lucy episode.
Jared Correia (40:54):
Yes, exactly.
Nick Werker (40:56):
Except with hot dogs.
Jared Correia (40:57):
I love that we're talking about I love Lucy. That's perfectly my demographic. Okay, so if I was a hot dog leg inspector, am I making 25, 35 or $45,000 a year? Hot dog leg inspector 25. 35 45. What do you think?
Nick Werker (41:14):
Take your
Jared Correia (41:14):
Time.
Nick Werker (41:15):
I'm going to say call Oscar Meyer. Oscar Meyer, Brett, Hebrew National. I'm going to have faith in all of you that you're paying your people for the quality hot dogs that you produce $45,000
Jared Correia (41:27):
Into your final answer. Yes. Hell yes, correct. I do. I said Alex. I met
Nick Werker (41:32):
Regis.
Jared Correia (41:33):
I love Hebrew national hot dogs. By the way, greatest hot dogs ever. He national. Oh yeah.
Nick Werker (41:39):
I'm a RET man.
Jared Correia (41:40):
Okay. Okay. That's fair. Alright, I got two more for you and we're going to get a little weird, weird earth. Okay. This job is a toque, a toque. In some parts of Mexico, particularly at bars and street events, individuals known as Toques offer small controlled electrical shocks to people often to sober them up. Clients hold the electrodes and the toques control the intensity. Have you heard of this before? You're like, yes, I have not. I've done it. I have not, but I need it. I could see this. I walk out of a bar, I'm like feeling a little bit off. Then I just get electric shocked back into sobriety. So if you happen to be a toque, would you be making a hundred dollars a night, $250 a night or $750 a night?
Nick Werker (42:39):
Again, I'm going to go into the psychology of who would pay for such a thing.
Jared Correia (42:43):
Please do.
Nick Werker (42:43):
Yes. I'm going to say the drunk people don't understand the concept of saving money. I just read a whole thing about Malcolm Gladwell, about how you become your truest version of yourself when you're inebriated because part of your brain shuts off. I'm going to say $250 a night because most people will refuse to be electroshock, but the people that do want to be electroshock will pay enough money for it for you to make two 50.
Jared Correia (43:16):
That's why I love having people on the legal field on the show, which I say regularly because the analysis level for this stuff is amazing. It's actually a hundred bucks a night. Alright. All right. It's still not bad. I got one more for you. Last one. A panda fluffer. Hell yeah. Well, let me explain. We're not hugging pandas. We're preparing them for breeding. Oh, at panda breeding centers, this job involves trying to encourage shy pandas to mate. This can include a variety of methods sometimes involving feather dusters to stimulate the pandas and get them in the mood. It's critical for conservation of the endangered species just like a fluffer for pandas. So you're just out there tickling with the feather duster. It's crazy. This job probably cannot pay enough, really, but what do you think a panda fluffer is making 35, 50 or $75,000 a year? 35, 50 or 75.
Nick Werker (44:26):
I got to tell you, one of my mottoes my whole life, maybe because my last name is Werker, is that if you pay me enough money, I will shovel elephant. Shit. I have been heard to say this many a time quote me on it, Penda. Fluffer, I was really hoping is somebody who combed the hair of penda and made them attractive at zoos. Unfortunately, it's not that at all. And so I do not revoke my hell yeah, about panda fluffing. I am all for the conservation of pandas and I am all for pandas getting laid.
Jared Correia (45:00):
Same,
Nick Werker (45:01):
Same. I'm going to say because of the danger of dealing with a panda.
Jared Correia (45:05):
I feel like there's danger vault here. Yeah, I, dude, pandas are big panda. I'm pretty sure they are crazy panda erections flying across the enclosure.
Nick Werker (45:18):
I'm going to be optimistic and say that if you are involved in the eroticism of pandas, you are making 70 5K. Sadly, you're not even making close to that. You're making
Jared Correia (45:29):
$35,000 a year rough stuff
Nick Werker (45:32):
For all that danger.
Jared Correia (45:33):
You remember the Simpsons? Maybe you just love pandas. You remember the Simpsons episode where Homer dressed up as a panda and got in the enclosure and he was wearing a panda suit and he was molested by the pandas and Anders, and then Mars is talking to him afterwards and he is like, I'm naked and wreaking of panda love.
Nick Werker (45:51):
What's crazy is I've watched every episode of The Simpsons and every episode of South Park and every episode of Seinfeld, and when it comes time for somebody to make a reference, I don't remember that me about those things. I'm like, never seen it before.
Jared Correia (46:07):
All right. I got some YouTube clips to send you when we're done here,
Nick Werker (46:11):
But I'm looking forward to it.
Jared Correia (46:12):
Nick, tremendous performance on the show today in several capacities. Truly the hardest worker in command in the legal tech space. Thank you for coming on. We'll, let do it again sometime.
Nick Werker (46:23):
Thanks for having me on and letting me let my freak
Jared Correia (46:26):
Flag fly. That's what we do here. Thanks again to our guest. That was Nick Werker of answering legal. To learn more about answering legal visits, answering legal.com. That's answering legal.com now, because I'll always be a nineties kid whose pod collection was almost nonexistent, but whose true passion was burning CDs for anyone who would listen. I'm not just doing the modern version of that, which is creating Spotify playlists for every podcast episode that I record where the songs are tangentially related to an episode topic. This week's playlist is songs about phone calls that seems appropriate and it's sponsored by Lionel Richie's bust from the 1983 music video for his song. Hello. That was less long-winded when I was drafting it. I'm just kidding. By the way, I don't even think that's an actual product, but I wish it was. I'd buy one and place it prominently somewhere in my home, perhaps behind me right next to the ghost flipping birds. Join us next time when I apply to become a panda fluffer. I have my feather duster all ready to go. See you next time. I.