Lennon Parham

Intro: NASA needs a producer, Copernicus, Don Knotts, Barney Fife, Monsters, Quentin Tarantino, Django Unchained, Shaft, 
Interview: We talk to Lennon Parham about growing up in Georgia, playing quirky characters, getting a taste for theater, soaking up all the non-performance aspects of theatre, improv, Upright Citizens Brigade, Pete Holmes, applying to Juilliard, doing Teach for America in Greenville Mississippi, auditioning for Veep with Julia Louis-Dreyfus and Armando Iannucci, callbacks, Playing House, Jack McBrayer, Jason Mantzoukas,  Betsy Capes, the 25th Annual Putnam County Spelling Bee, Jessica St. Clair, Best Friends Forever, the undeniable draw of having fun.

Creators & Guests

Host

Gina Pulice

Co-host, Writer, Actor, Director

Host

Jen Bosworth Ramirez

Co-host, actor, writer, consultant

What is I Survived Theatre School?

We went to theatre school. We survived it, but we didn't understand it. 20 years later, we're talking to our guests about their experience of going for this highly specialized type of college at the tender age of 18. Did it all go as planned? Are we still pursuing acting? Did we get cut from the program? Did we... become famous yet?

1 (8s):
I'm Jen Bosworth Ramirez.

2 (10s):
And

3 (10s):
I'm Gina Paci. We

4 (11s):
Went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.

3 (15s):
20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.

4 (21s):
We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet.

0 (30s):
Amazing. All good. Yay. Hi.

1 (33s):
Hi. Oh, my God. It's, it's literally, I was looking, it's been months and months and months.

2 (38s):
Months. I mean, a whole lifetime has passed by in this interim

1 (41s):
Oh, my God, so many things have happened. So many things. Not

2 (46s):
The least of which is that the government is finally acknowledging UFOs.

1 (51s):
Oh, well, that, I mean, that's like the only bright spot in what I would consider really late stage dystopic capitalism stuff. So

2 (1m 1s):
I was trying to watch the NASA conference about it. Oh yeah. First of all, I mean, they need, they need a producer to get in there and liven things up. Because if you want people to care about what's happening, you gotta, it's like the C-span problem. And honestly, they really didn't say anything. They were like, no, we're, these are things that we cannot account for. But I thought it was gonna be like, yeah, we made contact and here's our, oh,

1 (1m 33s):
No, no. Listen, listen. I think they're going to keep everything secret until those green fuckers are in our living rooms, like possessing our minds. Then they're gonna be like, actually we have a little problem area.

2 (1m 49s):
Yeah. you know, And I feel like maybe they have to do that because there's so, the amount of crazy people in the discourse ruins the whole thing. Like, you don't know what to take seriously and what not to.

1 (2m 2s):
Well, that is the truth for everything. It's like, listen, when these sort of people, the, the outliers become so much like the outliers aren't that out Lae anymore. That's when you get a real infiltration of like fucking kook mania in the, in the world. So listen, we're headed more and more towards where the kooks who are see the thing, the problem is with everything and, and we've talked about gray areas before. It's like, listen, there's a bit of truth in all the kook, most of it. I mean, like, some of it is like, okay, a chupacabra came outta your asshole.

1 (2m 42s):
I'm not quite sure. Although, yeah, I, I'm just, but, but, but yeah. So the kooks have a point. you know what I mean? Like that is like sort of the essence of

2 (2m 52s):
Yeah. And then when you think about histories, kooks, I mean Copernicus, we have a lot of really valid points coming from kooks. It's just hard to know who's the real deal. I know,

1 (3m 5s):
I know. So that's again, where we go back to like, oh, speaking, which like my Dr. Altman who I can say his name, he was my therapist, my mentor. And you said it like psychiatrist a million

2 (3m 15s):
Times. Yeah,

1 (3m 17s):
But I'm now gonna say that like, okay, so I love him. I credit him with a huge part of my growth and my life-saving, like helping me to reparent myself. Right. Okay. So then I, you know, every once in a while, cause he's old as fuck, I look him up to make sure he is not dead or see if he is dead cuz he will die. I mean, that's something just gonna happen. Okay. And then I found he's embroiled in this crazy lawsuit where he went to go work for the airlines. He, he was the airlines chief doctor to just determine whether or not people were doing recovery enough as addicts to fly again.

1 (3m 57s):
So like alcoholic pilot pilots and drug addict pilots who were busted would then have to go see em. He would evaluate them. Well he got embroiled in this crazy thing and people hate him. And then he just retired. Yeah. And I. I mean, I know, but I think he's kind of, he got old and kooky, but also he was really like, right. Like he was old school in that he was like, no, you're an, you're an addict. You shouldn't be flying an airplane until you've really like surrendered to the fact that you're an addict. And then, and people don't wanna do that. Also, he could have been kooky, I don't know. But all I know is that he helped me very much.

1 (4m 40s):
And that's the truth. And

2 (4m 41s):
It doesn't really matter. I mean, honestly, like you could kill yourself trying to figure out like what, you know, follow the line. Actually I just watched or read this really interesting book called Monsters and it's about one person's exploration of separating the art from the artist. So it's about Woody Allen and Bill Cosby and Roman Polan Roman. Yeah. Actually that's what it's first about. Cuz she wrote a whole book about Roman Polanski, which I have not read. But this was a really interesting book. And yeah, I mean, you sure it's noble to go down the the line and say, well this led to this and this, but, but you're going to find that everybody is really horrible at some, in some way or another.

1 (5m 31s):
So. Well I think like one of the, the first names we thought of maybe like we floated for this podcast or that we've talked about is everyone is problematic. Yes.

2 (5m 41s):
Yeah, dude,

1 (5m 42s):
Everyone is problematic. And so one time, it's interesting, Like I am gonna get a tattoo of Don Knotts as Barney Fife cuz he's like my comedy hero. Oh, didn didn't

2 (5m 52s):
Know that about, you know,

1 (5m 54s):
Yeah. I'm gonna get Don Knotts and then maybe Doris, but I, I, anyway, Don Knotts for sure, but specifically as Barney Fife, not Don Knotts as Mr. Roper, whatever the fuck Mr. Farley, what if he played one of 'em? Right. So, but anyway, the point is, I posted about this online that like he was my comedy hero. And I said, I'm sure he's done some really problematic things, but like, and this woman wrote like, how can you say that? How do you know he did problematic things? He's never And I said, listen lady, he was a white dude living through a yes. He's done problematic things. I don't know what they are, but I have too. So all I'm saying is I'm accounting for the fact that I was, I'm gonna have a super imperfect person tattooed on my body on a super

2 (6m 43s):
Guess what? Imperfect person.

1 (6m 45s):
Well also I have both my parents who were very problematic, tattooed my mom's face and my dad's name tattooed on my, so Like I get it.

2 (6m 55s):
But he, as they say, what specifically do you love about Barney Fife?

1 (7m 1s):
So the thing is, I've read the, the Don Knotts biography too. Miles And I read it cuz I'm obsessed. And so what I love about him in that role is, and the show is so problematic, you know, obviously there's like no people of color. It's an awful situation. However, and Tapping

2 (7m 21s):
Came out, there's some, something is moving on your, it's like, it sounds like a chord moving, it's making a creaking sound.

1 (7m 30s):
Is that any better? Yeah, I don't

2 (7m 31s):
Hear it at all now. Okay.

1 (7m 32s):
Oh great. It, it was And I. Think my leg was hitting something. Okay. Okay, great. Okay. Good to know. Good to know. Tell me if you hear it again. No, it's great cuz we don't want it creaking cuz Gina's the one that edits the shit out of these, so that's gonna drive her insane. Okay. So, alright, so Don Knotts as Barney Fife is a study in someone who takes anxieties. And he's talked about this as his acting process. So like, he also has this famous character, the Nervous Weather, man. Okay, look it up if you have it. So what happened was Don Knotts had Stage Frighted at some point, or a version of it, whatever you wanna call it, when he was on stage doing live shows. Cause he did a lot of like shows, like a variety shows and the like, that were popular at the time when he was, when he was an actor.

1 (8m 18s):
Okay. Starting out before he became a star star and he got nervous and he developed these, he was like, okay, well, like he discovered that if he really leaned into the nervousness, he developed these ticks as a nervous weatherman or in some of those, you can see in Barney Fife where it is like, he uses that energy to create the character and it becomes pure comedy gold. So on two levels, I like it. I Like I just think it's a, a great character, but also I think it's a great exploration of what an actor, a performer does when they're really nervous to compensate and to take those, take our, our nerves and our terrible feelings and turn them into like comedy gold.

1 (9m 3s):
And so I'm just so inspired by that. And also, he's just fucking funny on that show. You're like, he's such a tool in so many ways, but he's also like so kind, so

2 (9m 13s):
Lovable. Yes. Yeah. He did the thing that Steve Corll did, you know, which is like, if the character is just a boob, then it's the nobody, there's nothing to root for. but he was so kind and sweet and he had such a good heart. And as a result, I remember, I mean, I, I, I did watch that show when I was a kid, don don't really remember under what circumstances, but that I it was

1 (9m 36s):
Probably under Duress by your father,

2 (9m 38s):
Probably. And I do just actually, no, that was not one that my dad watched, but I just do remember feeling like he seemed like such a safe person, which was important to me at that age. you know, like anybody who's safe,

1 (9m 51s):
Safe and nothing. There's nothing nefarious about Barney Fife. There's, he's so earnest and he is embarrassed really easily, which I fucking love. Like, so you have Andy Griffith never embarrassed, like macho man, really, you know, white dude, like owning the world or whatever. But Barney Fife is so the great foil and the great contrast to that, and that he's so vulnerably, like weird and awkward and he plays up so he knows that his body is skinny and weird. So he, he's, he plays it up by putting his pants like up really high and like being as gawky and his blood pressure's always too low because he is too skinny and he plays Santa and then he has to wear, I mean, it's, it's brilliant.

1 (10m 39s):
So he's like one of my heroes. So, but he I'm sure was a problematic dude because guess what? And everybody has, well, you're

2 (10m 46s):
Kind of talking me into getting a Barney Fife tattoo. He, I, I, I, this is a person I haven't thought about. Certainly a character, but an actor that I haven't thought about.

1 (10m 55s):
He's, oh, Gina thinks about him. He's

2 (10m 57s):
One of the people who, when did he die, by the way?

1 (11m 1s):
I think he died in the nineties. Okay. And I'm

2 (11m 3s):
Not sure, well, speaking of problematic people, I've just been on a Quentin, Tarantino, you know, parade just watching. After I read this book, Monsters, I was like, okay, cool. So I can watch all the movies.

1 (11m 16s):
Oh my God, I'm sorry. He died February 24th, 2006.

2 (11m 21s):
Oh, wow. He lived of

1 (11m 22s):
Lung cancer. Lung

2 (11m 24s):
Cancer. Okay.

1 (11m 25s):
He lived a long time. Well, 24 to 2003.

2 (11m 28s):
Yeah, that is a long time. He had a good life. Well, I, one thing I really respect about Quentin Tarantino is the way he brought back these actors that are from his childhood. I mean, he did, he, he has the mo he did what we were, what we did with Kiki, which is that he took all of his childhood memories and he thread them through this series of films that he made. I was just rewatching Django, And I. Forgot that one of the characters is named Von Shaft. And so it's the, it's the pre, it's the ancestor of Shaft, which I had totally forgotten about.

2 (12m 9s):
I mean, I love the brilliant universe. Brilliant. That he's, that he built. Right, right. And Christoff Waltz is

1 (12m 14s):
Amazing. I was, oh, Christoff, I mean that guy. What I'm really excited by also speaking of Kiki, is that, you know, people still ask me about Kiki and I'm like, someone needs to make it. And so maybe after the strike, you never know. We'll try again. I, I just feel like everything is gonna, so much has gone on Gina so much. You don't have that much. We only have 10 minutes before our lady comes. Before our lady comes. We'll have to do it again. Well, tell

2 (12m 38s):
Us, where do you stand with your job situation?

1 (12m 41s):
Oh, well, I, I, I have like, yeah, okay, so the job situation, oh, it's nil. Like I have no job. Still like, that has not changed. However, I've had some really, in interesting interviews. I've had some, oh, I have to say like a shout out to the podcast that, so who was it? Skyler, is that his name? Skyler, right? Skyler.

2 (13m 3s):
Tom

1 (13m 3s):
Skyler. Skyler. Skyler. Sorry I don't kill me. Skyler. He's not, he's a a god faring guy.

2 (13m 8s):
Siler, siler, Siler.

1 (13m 9s):
You're like, bitch. Anyway, I'm sorry. Cler. I, it's just,

2 (13m 13s):
He is a very forgiving person. He, he will be with

1 (13m 16s):
It. So Syler introduced me to someone, And I think I, I have a possible job with that human being doing some diversity and inclusion work. So that's great. However, I still have no job. I've booked, since we talked, I booked another national commercial. Yeah, a Spanish one. It's a You. Don't hear me really at the end, you hear me say something about Ropa Veep or Eatmore or something. Maybe in Spanish. But, so I booked that. But I, in terms of a job, I've had many interviews. I have, I've had two first rounds this past week to do communications work because as we know, the writers are on strike. I am not wga so, and neither are you So. that doesn't affect me in that way, although it does.

1 (13m 58s):
Because now I'm just writing, I'm writing like a mad woman. And, and then, but the actors are probably gonna go on, strike this mo in June coming up, and then the directors are probably gonna go on strike. So my feeling is that nothing will happen until the new year, which is really awful in some ways. But also, what can we do about it? So basically I'm okay am we're surviving. We've had some real ups and downs over here. We've had weird lawyer shit. We hired a lawyer to sue a crook, and the lawyer turned out to be a crook. I know everybody in podcast land is like, no shit. Like, dude, it was a first for me.

1 (14m 38s):
And so we're, we're, I, I really feel Gina that I am in cleanup mode for a lot of things. And as hard as it is, I gotta tell you, I'd much rather be in cleanup mode than, than either in denial mode or, or storm mode. I don't feel like I'm in the storm. So like, right, like Miles Work will say there's the form you form. So we formed already anything forms, then you're in the storm, then you find your norms and then you perform and then you, and this is the one that I'm always like, they gotta come up with a better word, Ajon, which is adjourn.

1 (15m 19s):
So let's not be

2 (15m 20s):
Right.

1 (15m 22s):
It's, it's a branch. And then you are,

2 (15m 24s):
What about then you are born or then you

1 (15m 26s):
Are reborn or then you are,

2 (15m 29s):
Then you're, yeah, then you're Mormon. No, that doesn't work either. That's off

1 (15m 34s):
The mother journey.

2 (15m 35s):
Well I, you know, I as always, the what is for you will not go by you. And it's just a matter of time until you get the right position for yourself. I am in that age old situation where there is so much that has gone on in my life, most of it involving my children. And, I keep revisiting this thing about like their stories. And because it's not only their stories, of course it's my story. but, you know, at this, at these tender ages, if you know me personally, feel free to call me or message me. I'll be happy to tell you. But yeah, stories about my kids who are going through lots of knocks in life, but who are trending upwards.

2 (16m 22s):
Learning and growing. And, and you mentioned denial earlier. And that's been, I mean, I'll never stop learning about denial. It is the, it is the biggest unwrapping, unfolding gift slash curse for me. Like every time I think. But I'm not in denial about this. Oh, I am in denial about that Like I. So my, my thing has been I just wanna approach everything with the clearest possible vision. And it's amazing how many things, I'm just so hardwired to look the other way that I don't even know inside of my own self.

2 (17m 5s):
I am looking the other way. It's so automatic and it's so intrinsic to me. And, and I've had several moments of, you know, people, my son, you know, people in my family saying to me, Gina, you are in denial like this. Cuz what I'll do, my classic thing is like, it's a problem, but it's not a big problem.

1 (17m 27s):
Oh right.

2 (17m 28s):
It's a problem. But it's, but it's, it's go, you know, but it's gonna get better. Right. you know, and sometimes problems do get better. So it's not that it's wrong to ever think that, but my, my, that's my thing in life. That's my beir, I guess is the term.

1 (17m 43s):
Well that's a good, that's a good term. What does that mean?

2 (17m 47s):
Well, now that I say it, I'm doubting it. but it, I think it means like,

1 (17m 52s):
Best darkness is no knight or night, you

2 (17m 55s):
Know what actually be noir is more like a pet peeve. That's the wrong term. It's my pro to bear. It's my ax to grind. Whatever you wanna say. Whatever. It's one of those applicable expressions. It's the thing that I have contended with my whole entire life. And I. Just know that I'll always be contending with it. Yes. And that was the piece I got about it. Like, okay, so that's it. You're just, you're built on a foundation of denial. You'll never totally get out of it. Embrace it. Learn what you can, change what you can and stop, you know, ha wearing a hair shirt about the things that you, you, you've missed the, the things that I've Yeah. Been denying in the past that I've missed.

1 (18m 32s):
So yeah, And I also think that like, like you said, something really stuck out what you just said, which was right, that we, part of the deal with denial, which is why you need to get outside help, is that Sometimes, I don't even know I'm in denial at all. I think I'm wide awake, I'm walking through life, looking at things and then all of a sudden I'm like, and And, I've done that particularly with my health and particularly with how much I have relied on other folks to give me a sense of foundation and grounding to, to how how much I really at any first chance will abandon myself for the sake of looking for someone else to take care of me or to make it okay.

1 (19m 23s):
Or to even just tell me. And in therapy yesterday I discovered that like to tell me I'm okay, like it's great on a plane. Cuz I always talk about planes. If I'm sitting next to someone who loves to fly and who's like, lady, we've got this. But the minute they get afraid, if something goes out of their wheelhouse and triggers them, then I'm like, oh no, my whole foundation is rocked because my rock, this person who I don't know, who basically has just said everything's gonna be okay, apropo of nothing. They don't know that they're afraid now. Or some they get triggered, it's over for me. So then I had to realize, oh no, in therapy.

1 (20m 5s):
I said, yeah, the only real way, the only mantra that works for me right now, the only one is I will no longer abandon myself no matter what happens. There

2 (20m 15s):
You go. I love that. Okay,

3 (20m 22s):
Today on the podcast we are talking to Lennon Parham. you know Lennon, she's a hilarious actor. She's also a writer director. She's currently directing episodes of the television show. Somebody somewhere. She's an Upright, Citizens Brigade alum, a performer and a teacher. She was also a teacher in a previous life for the Teach for America program. She taught French. She's an interesting person with really interesting history. And she went to the University of Evansville for theater. And. I. Think you're really going to enjoy our conversation with Lennon. Parham

5 (21m 6s):
Usually Zoom.

1 (21m 8s):
Oh,

5 (21m 9s):
Classic Zoom.

1 (21m 10s):
Good to know. Welcome to, welcome to our podcast.

2 (21m 13s):
Yes, welcome to our podcast. We always start by saying congratulations. Lennon Parham. You Survived Theater School.

5 (21m 20s):
Thank you. Thank you. Yes. Skin of it. That's

2 (21m 24s):
Everybody really was Everybody

1 (21m 26s):
Except for like two people who were Like I loved it. it was my favorite time and I'm like, oh, that's Like. I

5 (21m 32s):
Did love it. That is true. I loved it. Loved every second. I'm

2 (21m 35s):
So happy to hear that. How does a person from Georgia end up at school in Indiana? Indiana?

5 (21m 42s):
It was via my thespian conference.

2 (21m 46s):
Oh dear

5 (21m 47s):
Caspians, right. So yeah, thespian. Okay. So I was really super involved in theater in high school also. it was in my marching band, not to brag. Woohoo. So just juggled it all. Also held high positions in the United Methodist Church. Just big.

1 (22m 6s):
Oh

5 (22m 6s):
Hey. Big deal All over.

2 (22m 8s):
That's a whole other podcast.

5 (22m 9s):
Yeah. Yeah. I Survived meth, ch Youth group or whatever. Yeah. So the, my senior year thespian conference in Georgia and like all of these theater kids come together and you do competitions of like one act plays and people are doing monologues for competitions, et cetera, et cetera. Yes. So we ended, I ended up doing my, my whatever, my monologue aunt song. I think it was just a monologue for a group of like recruiters, you know, from schools all over. And I met a gentleman who was recruiting and he invited me to come visit the University of Evansville in southern Indiana, which is a really great liberal arts theater school.

1 (23m 2s):
I know this well. I'm from cuz I'm from Evanston and a lot of the folks in, in Illinois and a lot of folks went to, that's a great, anyway, I wish I had gone every time we talked to someone. I'm Like I. Wish I had gone there. But anyway, keep going, keep going. So you went and visited and what did you think?

5 (23m 16s):
Lennon? Well the trip itself was kind of a shit show. It, it was called like Maniac Weekend or something. And they bus kids in from all over the country. Evansville did do like a really good job of recruiting outside of Indiana, which I think, I mean there were kids in my department from all over. Like just, it was very, it was, I mean it wasn't that diverse, but it was like geographically diverse. Not necessarily right,

2 (23m 49s):
But maniac. They called it man maniac.

5 (23m 51s):
Yeah. it was like a mania weekend maniac. I can't remember why. And the deal

2 (23m 56s):
Was really problematic. They would not call it that now.

5 (23m 59s):
Right. And I got hosted by like a student in the theater department. So I slept on the floor of a young woman's dorm room. I guess she was like a sophomore or something. She did not really want me there. I'm not sure. Did she volunteer it? If she was tasked with like helping me like navigate the place or whatever. She failed that miserably. But maybe

1 (24m 28s):
She was drunk and on pills, Like I would've been, I'm just saying it could have been anyway.

5 (24m 33s):
I don't think so. I, she was pretty straight and narrow. But she just like it, the, the feeling was Like I just have stuff to do and you're like, you know, it was just, I was not part of she,

2 (24m 47s):
It was giving, it was giving, I'm an adult, you're a baby child. There's a graft, there's an ocean between us, right? Yeah.

5 (24m 55s):
Yeah. And I think she was in the theater management department. So that make

1 (25m 1s):
Sense. Oh yeah. Oh that makes sense. She's gonna manage you right The fuck out of there.

5 (25m 5s):
Yeah. So it wasn't a great experience as far as that. But I did see a production of Seasons Greetings, which was the best theater I had ever seen in my life up until that point in my humble baby opinion.

2 (25m 23s):
And had you seen Theater up, scene Theater?

5 (25m 26s):
Yeah. I mean I lived Atlanta sub the Suburbs of Atlanta. So I saw a lot of the stuff at the Alliance. I did like a summer theater program there. I saw all the shows that toured at the Fox Theater, like all the national touring shows of Le Mis and what else? Hair And, you know, et cetera. Fan of the opera, you know, the, the classics and

2 (25m 52s):
Always musicals. Right? That's always what they wanna bring to everybody is musicals. Yeah. Some people think that that's all the theater there is is musicals.

5 (25m 59s):
Yes. And we did theater and plays at my high school. And I had studied it in some, you know, in in some form or fashion. And I just was into it anyway, I was like, you know what, this may be a hellhole for four years. I may be really unhappy, but I have to come here because I, I have to know how to do that. I wanna be that good. And so I just was like, I'm gonna do it. And I was on the bus with a guy who, who ended up going there as well. He was from Georgia, this guy Preston Dykes, who became a friend and was at school with me. Now he works for NASA. Oh

1 (26m 37s):
No, no big deal. you know, he really,

2 (26m 39s):
That's funny. We were just talking about NASA. That always happens.

5 (26m 43s):
Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, that's how I found myself there. So

1 (26m 48s):
Did you, when you, I mean, I'm gonna, I'm just Like I gonna fan lady out a little bit because I just love, so I'm obsessed with the idea of people that are now women, especially directing as well as Okay. So we'll get there. Just know that that's waiting in my wings is like, cuz whenever I'm on set as an actor and there's a woman director, I get a little crazy and people are like, simmer down Bosworth. But, but anyway, we'll get there. What I'm gonna ask you is when you showed up in Indiana and you're like day one Yeah. And you're like, they're like, this is a movement class or this is a, what were your initial, we always ask people, you walk in and you're like, oh, this is blank.

1 (27m 30s):
what is it? Yeah. What was the word for you?

5 (27m 32s):
Good question. I, I don't remember day one. I, I mean, it was so, the whole thing was so foreign. you know, I'm living far away from home. I have a roommate, like my first roommate ended up being one of my lifelong friends, Heather, she And I are s like still see each other all the time. And you know, a deep love formed immediately and you're, you know, you're just like inundated. You're just there with all of these young people and you all want the same thing. And you were all the, you know, top tier whatever in your high school or wherever you came from. It just, it's so thrilling.

5 (28m 14s):
It's so, it was so excited to be there. I don't remember like, what my early classes were. Like. We had, I'm sure we had auditions pretty quickly for we, there were se there were like, there were like audition practices. So there were things called Departmentals where you practiced auditioning, but there were also general auditions. it was a great idea. We should had that which were for So there was no stakes except that you were getting judged on your auditioning, right, of course. Yeah. And then there were general auditions would, and they would cast the season from those.

1 (28m 50s):
So what kind of casting did you have? Because we talk a lot about this. Like Yeah. What were you, what were you, what were the roles that you people saw you as and how did you feel about it?

5 (29m 3s):
I, so I, you know, I was cast pretty, I was, I was cast as like the special one or, or you know, the one who's like a little off, you know, the one who's just like a little off and they don't say house some blue leaves. Yeah. I, we did like dancing at Luisa. And I played Rose, we did Luke Homeward, angel, And. I was like the, the like spinster who's like longing for someone. We did the Diviners. Those are, they all kind of have like a toe in the Like I don't know, in the, not the occult, but like,

1 (29m 42s):
But it's like, it's, it's a little bit, there's a,

5 (29m 44s):
A magic to it.

1 (29m 45s):
Yeah. You were one of those actors in the, at that age was, it was probably like what I described at least to my students as what, like,

5 (29m 54s):
Yeah. Okay.

2 (29m 56s):
Like we're little a character actor. Isn't that what we call, I mean, in theater school, if you're non ingenue, you're a character actor. That's it. Yeah. There's only those two choices. And, you know, it took me 20 years to realize, oh, that's what you wanna be. You wanna be the character actor. Well, also ing

1 (30m 12s):
Think at theater school too. Like if you're not so Like I, I would say that there's three categories. I would say it's the Aja News, the character actors, and then there's like people they don't know what to do with. So they played elderly people. And that would be like me. Oh yeah. you know, so, but I, I love a little, my, my jam is people that are like, oh, I understand what this, no, I don't. They're a little bit, oh. And it's so interesting. Okay. So you got those roles and were you happy being the, the sort of slightly quirky in Spanish, it's tota, which is a little, so how did you feel?

5 (30m 45s):
Yeah, yeah. I, I think I liked it. I got Like I got a, I was also an old lady in the diviners. Yeah. I mean, you know, you, I think you kind of always want Like I always wanted to be whatever the lead role was, but that just, that wasn't, they don't make, they didn't make plays about the character actresses. you know, like there's a different Yeah, I wasn't in the seagull, but the, the thing that was so good about it for me was that I, you worked like, you just lived Wreathed theater and, and in all capacities.

5 (31m 26s):
So I, I did my work study in the costume department. I had several semesters in the scene. s you know, the scene building department. I didn't do lighting, I did Like, I did hair and makeup. Like I was the head of wigs for top girls. And I, you know, like Yeah,

2 (31m 46s):
You did all the same shows, honestly. Like we, it must have just been the thing of that time. Cause I think, I think you're exactly our age. We graduated in 97.

5 (31m 57s):
Yeah. 98 I graduated. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was, I kind of got like a taste of it all, you know, which, and, and also grew to appreciate. And also that's just like my jam is like learning how to do all that. And, and Like I loved my like, rendering class, like costume design class, Like, I. Don't know. I Like I like to be, I like to have to understand it all and how it works. But I also like to watch other people who are incredible at their work as well. Yeah.

2 (32m 32s):
It, it kind of sounds like you experienced the whole thing as a whole new world with, with like being in a toy store and, and you could go with this toy and this toy and you know, you sort of, that's what college is for, right? Is honing the thing that you're really interested in. Yeah. But I really wanna ask you about improv. I don't know if you did improv when you were in theater school. it was a core component of what, what we had to do. Our, our first, our first year acting class was all improv.

5 (32m 58s):
Did you guys go to Northwestern?

2 (32m 60s):
No, we went to DePaul.

5 (33m 2s):
Oh, okay. I auditioned for DePaul. And I didn't get in, I guess. Oh, that was for grad school though. Grad school. Okay. Yeah. Well, I really, I really loved what I saw, what I saw cooking over there.

2 (33m 13s):
Okay, good. Well, their loss anyway. But my thing, so Bos was really good at improv. And I really wasn't. And I've been thinking recently about what the deal is with that. And I. And I. Because I think about everything psychologically. I know it's psychological, And I know. it was really in my head, worried about saying the wrong thing and Yeah. you know, I never could really get to the point where I was, how people describe, they're just kind of channeling something. I never felt that. I always felt nervous and tense and tight. And you have taught improv a lot. And I'm just wondering like when you have a patient, a patient, when you have a student like that Yeah. We

5 (33m 50s):
Are patients too. Right,

2 (33m 51s):
Right. When you have a student like that, how do you encourage them to break through? Because our acting teachers were just like, you fucking suck. Sit down. Yeah,

5 (34m 2s):
Please. Well, I'll tell you a story about Pete Holmes. So Pete Holmes, I think he'd be okay with me sharing this. Pete Holmes was in my level 1 0 1 intensive. And it was like an incredible class with like a lot of people that I actually am still in touch with and who have gone on to do amazing things. Michael Kane, who's got a off Broadway show called Sorry For Your Loss and this amazing podcast called A Good Cry. And this guy ej, who is in all those Wendy's commercials now and is one of the funniest humans I've ever met. Yeah. Oh, Jill was in that class. it was just like a great, great class.

5 (34m 42s):
And so we just had so much, I loved teaching And I. I obviously got too close with my students, but Pete Pete, you know, is an incredibly funny human. And he exists mostly in his head. And he is very physically at the time, was very physically rigid and is used to like, a lot of standups are holding, holding the whole thing. you know what I mean? Like in, in improv you have to let go of control in some ways because it's a scene between you and another person. So you're building something together and the gr you know, the, the, the whole between you and your scene partner or your group is, is greater than the, than the sum of its parts.

5 (35m 30s):
So you have to let go of the, of I'm, I'm driving this scene, I'm making every choice, that kind of thing. And he was gifted with the character of a witch doctor, which is totally out of his wheelhouse. And he was saying so such funny things. but he was standing like just still just so like still and tight. And so I, I don't, I paused the scene. And I came in, And I was like, okay. Or maybe I gave him a note like, this is a witch doctor. Like you've gotta act, you've gotta move your body in a weird way, in a witch doctory way, not a Pete Holmes way, you know, whatever.

5 (36m 17s):
And, and we did it again and he was still, he tried, but it was, you know, it was just still so stiff and And I that could have technically become the game of the scene. This witch doctor who's, you know, like a super yeah, super tight witch doctor. But I, I went in And I paused the seat. And I. I went in And I was like, okay, I'm, I want you to match my physicality. So I'm gonna be standing across from you doing these like crazy loopy body movements. And I want you to keep talking and, and active in the scene, but just mirror what I'm doing. And, and he did.

5 (36m 57s):
And it, I think it was a success for both of us. Like it felt like it like unlocked something. He was able to get to a part of his brain where he wasn't judging himself physically. Cuz he was, that was kind of taken care of. And it was really funny. Did

1 (37m 15s):
He ever comment, I'm sorry, you can go ahead after second,

5 (37m 17s):
But he talked about it. Okay. We talked about it. Yeah. And, I, And

1 (37m 22s):
I. I just have a question about like what in you, I guess that's what makes for a good teacher because I'm like, for me what I hear is that like sometimes And I could have used this too. It's like physicality, like the body. I think it's a huge part for me of improv and Like I feel like at, especially at a time, And I know, I don't know how old Pete Holmes was at the time, but it doesn't matter. But like when we were kids learning improv, I was so ashamed of my body and so disconnected that Like I was. I think that's part of it. But I do think the answer lies Like I know in a room and stuff when I'm auditioning and I can feel myself leaving and not being present.

1 (38m 2s):
It's Like I am disconnected from my body and my breath. So I'm wondering Gina, this goes back to Gina's thing about like if you had, if we had somehow connected, cause we had movement classes up the wazo. Yeah. But if we had connected the movement of the body to the SPO work or whatev improv work Yeah. Then there would've been like an unlocking. Cause what I hear is that you helped Pete unlock something. And I think that's the key. And the way that people think they're gonna unlock something, at least back in 19 94, 5 and six seven was by screaming and telling you you're terrible.

2 (38m 36s):
Yeah, that's exactly work. you know, And I. but he did, he did try his way of trying was to say you're uptight. Which was, you wouldn't think that was helpful. But it was helpful cuz I really didn't know that at 17, I really didn't know I was uptight. But I've thought about this a lot, so I'm glad you asked me if I was in that class now or if I, if I was the teacher, I would say to that kid, it's okay. It doesn't have to be funny. It doesn't have to be the most creative amazing lever thing that ever came out of your mouth. You really, if you are doing it without thinking about it, then you're doing it.

2 (39m 20s):
Don't be so product driven. That was my thing. I couldn't get past, but I would have an idea. And I'd say, but that's not funny. And I was just that it all ended for me there. It's not funny. And I, that was sort

5 (39m 33s):
Of my, well in the, in the UCB methodology or whatever, you know it, when you watch it, it feels zippy. It feels like fast. And they, everybody's like thinking like super fast and coming up with these really funny quips. And for me, the thing that worked was to present a character that felt real in the world. And then it just happened to be funny because you were being specific. Like if you, you know, whatever character you're being, they have, you know, they have accoutrements, they have stuff that they always do rhythms that they always say And I. I think I was always an observer of those little weirdos in our world.

5 (40m 13s):
And so when I go to do a character, it's just Like I have a whole encyclopedia of characters in my head somewhere, you know, that I'm accessing that. And so it's almost like, yeah, I mean, I have felt the pressure specifically to be funny. I'm sure when I first started U C B and especially like if we're doing a show, Like I did touring company with U C B for years. And we would go to college to college and if I was doing a show for the first time, these kids may or may not know what improv is, how it works, what callbacks are that, what a Herald is. Some of them, like the school that we went to repeatedly at Haverford College Week, like they understood it and they're, the audience there was different.

5 (40m 57s):
But when you're doing like a big auditorium at, at like Ohio State or something like maybe there's 12 kids that know what you're doing and the rest of them are like, just make me laugh. Right. And if you don't like win right away, you're not, you're never funny again, like And I, that's really hard. That's a really hard lesson. but it, if you're overthinking it, it makes it even worse.

1 (41m 22s):
I mean, I think this is like, that's such a, a wonderful thing that you just said in terms of like, listen, it is what really stuck out to me was that you, because of the work that you have done to create all these characters by unlocking your body and by going through the process of creating real honest characters, then what I'm hearing is in, when you move forward on set or on stage, you have tools to call upon from when you are standing in front of Ohio State or wherever it is, and you can sort of call upon all the past work that you've done as a performer and an improv.

1 (42m 3s):
Yeah. And you don't, it doesn't feel like, yeah, it's just, I'm just hearing that like it's a process. I guess I'm in this whole thing where I'm like, oh, it's a fucking process. I didn't understand that. So yeah. But anyway, I love that, that you cre like creating real honest characters and doing that over a period of time is where then when you are on a stage or on a set as a director or actor or anything, you can call forth stuff that already exists in you rather than in the moment having to fucking re try to invent a wheel in front of people who are judging you, whether or not they're gonna pay you to get the job or whatever. So I think I love that. Are you still, I know that you're, you're doing so many things.

1 (42m 44s):
Do you still teach or is that over for you? No haven

5 (42m 46s):
Haven't taught in a long time. I, I did a workshop probably when I first moved out here. Like a character workshop. Yeah. But I haven't, I just don't, I, my schedule is so banana. Yeah, that's what I

1 (42m 57s):
Figured. Yeah.

5 (42m 58s):
And I mean for improv. I didn't, I came to it late. I, I did a comedy, I did one comedy sports competition in high school and we won And I. Remember that feeling? Yeah. I had, I did a scene, I did an inappropriate scene now two person scene. And then we did like a freeze, like a super freeze where like every, you know, someone's tagging and coming in and come And I had like the button on the final frame and it just like killed And. I was like, you know, just like Oh

1 (43m 37s):
My God

5 (43m 38s):
What, you know? Right. There's no feeling Like I don know to, to at Evansville there wasn't, I think we did one class where we sort of did improv exercises, but it wasn't, you know, it wasn't like comedy improv. It would've been, you know, bass objects and Yeah. It would've that kind of stuff. Yeah. And then when I auditioned for grad schools, I think we did some improv kind of things. Like when I auditioned for Juilliard, there was definitely some Like I improv stuff.

1 (44m 12s):
Juilliard, I just have, so I have a bunch of friends that are not friends, but like youngsters from Chicago that had just done the Erdas and all the things. Yeah, yeah. And the Juilliard one is still the same. Like it is still the same. I mean, I didn't even get, I don't think I even dared to audition for Juilliard, but there was like one person from Evanston that got called back to Juilliard and that was like a huge thing. but it's the same. But anyway. So you auditioned for for grad schools?

5 (44m 43s):
I did, yeah. I auditioned for a ton of grad, you know, I did Art is I did, and then I did the summer like, you know, all in one kind of thing. We, we went to Chicago, that was our closest big city and it was the Palmer House and it was like room to room. Yes. you know, and then it was terrifying. And where I wanted to, I wanted like Yale or N Y U, this is where most of my friends and, and like people before me had gone. People that I like really looked up to, went to Yale and, and y u and a r t and you, you know, that kind of thing. A c t I got into, not those though.

5 (45m 23s):
I got Like. I got offered to go to like Missoula, Montana. These were like rep repertory programs I guess. And there was one in Detroit, which actually is where Keegan Michael Key went, which was Wayne State. And there was one other And I just at the same time I was applying, I had applied like on a whim Really? To do Teach For America. And yeah. And they really wanted me and And I And I. The closer I got every round that I made it through, I realized that I really wanted that as well. So I ended up leaving undergrad and doing two years of teaching high school French in Greenville Mississippi, which is the heart of the, like delta, the, the home of the blues, the catfish capital of the world.

5 (46m 16s):
Like two hours from any major city. And, and it was, it was perfect. it was

2 (46m 24s):
Hard. it was hard. Right. My husband did Teach For America. He did, he he ended up, where was he? He was in East Palo Alto with Oh yeah. Dual language. Like a, not an immersion program. An esl. An esl. Oh yeah. Population. He had 38 kids in a trailer with no air conditioning and no books. They simply said no, we do not have books. Yeah. And it was that kind of a situation. What was yours? Like

5 (46m 54s):
I was in a double wide trailer. I shared with the health teacher who chain smoked And. I would have to like stop up. She was amazing. She was really a piece of fucking work. I mean, talk about characters. I tried to do her as a character. And I was like, nobody will believe this is real. Yeah. And I, basically they were, they were doing like blocks. it was like a time when we were doing like an hour and a half block of class. So the kids would come to me for an hour and a half an hour. And I have three of those. And yeah, like 25, 30 something kids. I'm teaching them French. They're in like, they're registered for French too.

5 (47m 35s):
They've, they don't speak any French. Like they, the teacher prior to me I think was more like a ditto kind of teacher. So you fill out the, the worksheet and then you with whatever time was left over. Oh yeah. They could play spades.

1 (47m 49s):
Oh sure. Oh well Spades is a good skill to have, but it's not French unless you're playing spades in French.

5 (47m 56s):
So I just kind of, I, I just, I was like, you know what, we'll, we'll we'll do our best to learn about French, but really what I'd love to do is open up the world to these kids. Like let them see that there is more than Greenville Mississippi and the nearest mall. Like that French has spoken all over the world, which, you know, that language is, is good for that because they speak it in Africa, they speak it in Europe, they speak it in southern Louisiana. you know, And I ended up taking them to like a conference called the in Lafayette, Louisiana, which is called the Louisiana, which all these French speaking bands come in Zydeco.

5 (48m 37s):
And it was just like the best And I ended up while I was there. So the first, I guess the first couple months I was really kind of drowning as like first year teachers do And I was Like I gotta figure out how I'm gonna survive this. Cuz if my day in day out is, it's gonna be, I'm not, I don't know if I gonna make it out a lot. you know.

1 (48m 59s):
Did you do what my friend who did? Who's first? I, I saw them all going through first. Did you cry at the end of every day? They would call me crying and say, I don't think I can do that. And I'd be like, it's gonna be, it's, this is the first year every single one, the first year was even And I. And they weren't even in Teach for America in a trailer. Yeah. And they cried every day. Or how did you, you just coped?

5 (49m 22s):
Yeah, I mean I started smoking. I, I found like we, you know, we had a group of te of t f a teachers that were there. My roommate was, it was a t it was an elementary teacher in a, in a school nearby. And I started doing karaoke every Friday night religiously at the How Joy restaurant and lounge. And then I, with a friend went to see a production at the Delta Center stage, which is like this community theater. And I really wasn't expecting much and they did Greater Tuna and it was two men, you know, playing every character in drag and stuff.

5 (50m 9s):
And honestly it was, it was, it was way better than I thought it was gonna be. And the, the gentleman who was in it, I ended up dating and then I started doing auditioning for, for, for stuff at the Delta Center stage. And there were some incredible like theater artists there and you know, folks that had been there for a while, And I really made a connection. And it became a lifeline for me because I would do this work. But then I also had this other thing that was keeping me, you know, that was serving just me, you know? And we did Narnia and we did the apple tree and we did, I did an original play that went to the Southeastern Theater Conference, you know, competition.

5 (50m 60s):
And so yeah, it was, it was, it was really great.

1 (51m 6s):
Also, I'm just picturing you, cuz you said you started, this sounds amazing in so many ways and hard as hell, but, but amazing in those hard as hell ways I'm picturing you and the health teachers, cuz you took up smoking. Like, I'm already writing this pilot in my head. You are. Guys are smoking in the double wide. You're the young

5 (51m 22s):
One. I don't, I never smoked at school. No,

1 (51m 24s):
No, no. I know you didn't. This is got never, she never smoked at school. Yeah. But I'm just these two characters, like the young one and the, and the more seasoned one. Yeah. And just in the, in the double wide in there, in the heart of the Delta Yeah. Teaching kids French and health. I mean, that is a, that is an amazing, this is

2 (51m 41s):
An Abbott Elementary spinoff that you should definitely write.

5 (51m 44s):
Yeah, I've thought about it. you know, I've thought about the, what the screenplay would be because I've, it was such a transformational time for me. But I, but then I'm Like I. Don't know. That's a pretty,

1 (51m 58s):
You know, it's hard.

5 (51m 59s):
It's, it's a, it's a tough story to tell. Yeah. All my kids were, were black except for the two exchange students, strangely from Czechoslovakia

1 (52m 9s):
Oh, my God. Now they have a story to tell. Can you imagine?

5 (52m 12s):
Seriously. And it, it was like, it was a pretty, it was almost entirely segregated. The city, the public schools were all, all black. And then the private schools were, and Christian schools, yeah. Were all mostly, mostly white. Yeah.

1 (52m 28s):
You don't wanna tell that like Hillary Swank movie, whatever that was where she came in and taught on poetry and like changed all their lives. Yeah. Stand and deliver on

5 (52m 35s):
Hillary And. I mean stand and Deliver, right? Yeah, yeah. Or Dangerous Minds or something. Like I. That's what

1 (52m 41s):
I'm talking about. That's the one.

5 (52m 42s):
Yeah. I, Michelle Pfeiffer, I feel like, yeah, I would have to figure out how to tell that story in a way that's not about me. Whatever coming in, because that is not what ha that's not what happened at all.

2 (52m 54s):
Wait. But Linen, honestly, that is such a good idea because nobody has approached that trope since we figured out it was a terrible trope. Yeah. I think there's a really nice in for you to write something that's funny. I don't know necessarily like a send up of those movies, but that's

5 (53m 13s):
Yeah. More

2 (53m 14s):
Truthful. Just more truthful. I, I mean, since it was an actually an experience that you have, I, I wanted to ask you, I mean, in, in ev you are funny in absolutely everything you do. You're never not funny. Thank you. I I I I cry watching you in Veep. It's, it is just fucking funniest thing I've ever seen. Thank you. But part of what makes you so funny is you're just, you seem so comfortable. Oh, is that true? And is that, or, or inside, are you a roiling mess or do you really feel comfortable?

5 (53m 51s):
It can be both. Like I mean in Veep, for instance, when I, first of all the, when I got that part, I, it was like a dream come true. you know, that show is like the Comedy Olympics. The audition itself was a callback with Julia and Chris Addison And, you know, Allison Jones casting. And it was just like, the room was so generous, And I improvised. And it was like the best audition I've ever had. And And I was like, God, if I don't get this, Like I will at least have had that, you know, because it was so, it was just so, it was just such a, a nourishing experience.

5 (54m 34s):
And I just felt so successful. So then to go get to do it was like icing on the cake. And when I got there, I was terrified. I had a one and a half year old, I had my nanny with me because my husband was traveling. She had never been on a plane. We were in Baltimore in the middle of winter staying at a, yeah. Some sort of, you know, Homewood Suite situation. I was again, like, it was like stepping in. you know, when you, when you get onto the w the moving walkway and some people are already like walking on it and they're double timing you, you know, that's what it feels like when you get on.

5 (55m 18s):
You have to start running, you know, And I. It's like, oh God, I hope don don't fall because they're already playing at such like a high level And I, remember I think Armando Iannucci, whose show it was, could see that and he knew what I had done in the audition, so I think he was like, he came over and just like, was like, don't you know, just go for it. Like don't, don't hold back. you know, I know what scripted, but like, just, just start repeating everything she says, you know? Just like, put, put a coda on everything she says, And I. And so I started to do that and pretty quickly, you know, yeah.

5 (56m 2s):
It, it got, I got into a groove and then it's also, it was so fun to be the one that they all hated. Yes. it was just so fun to be there and just say things that I knew that they would be able to be like, Jesus Christ, you know? Yeah. And I think

1 (56m 19s):
That that is what I'm hearing is that you are able to, and you can see it on screen, that you are able to do things simultaneously or sin simultaneously as my coworker would say, which is simultaneously you're able to stay grounded in breathing because you didn't fuck that callbacks up royally clearly. You went for it. You're able to take in feedback. He came over and said, Hey, like you didn't just put up a wall and say no, I'm gonna just repeat what I did. Right? Yeah. So you're seasoned enough that you're working enough. You can play at a high level without getting so nervous that you sabotage or whatever that is. Yeah. You really were able to go for it.

1 (57m 0s):
You did things. I think what I would say to young folks is based on what you're saying is like, or people just starting out or more green. Yeah. It's like you gotta be able to do things si simultaneously in this career and Yeah, it's hard. But you had put in the work to get there and you had a really, it sounds like you had a really great callback that was, which is the name of our company. Like completely undeniable. Yeah. Like whether or not you got the job. Yeah. Like, okay. But you were undeniable in the room. Yeah. And that is, I think, a better goal to go for, for me anyway, than being good or be getting the job right. Yeah.

1 (57m 40s):
Like were you, when you got the call, what did you do? Because I, we talked to people and, and like Trel was telling us what he did when he got what you call it, severance. What did you do when you got the call

5 (57m 52s):
For, for Veep? I probably screamed. I usually scream or yell or like, it depends on who's around me. If I can, you know, like when I take the call. I think also too, when I see the agent number like coming up, I'm like, well, this isn't a no, you know? Yeah. Right.

1 (58m 11s):
Yeah. When I see the number too, I don do this. You got, you should know you. If you ever see me on a phone call doing, and it's, you know, like a, a Walmart commercial, but still it's good for me. I, I get And I go I don know what that is. It's real dorky. It's like the dorky thing and the

5 (58m 28s):
Like that I'm sure I do that I've done, I've definitely done that. I will say though, like the flexibility, I don't know if I had that when I started. That definitely has come with doing it a while. And also being Like I, guess you gotta get out of your own way because when you show up, all you wanna do is be the best version. Right. But usually they're casting you because you solve their problem in the room. So once you get there, you just need to do that again. And then if they don't like it or need something else, they will tell you it moves so fast. But like, if you come and you're Like I thought about a lot of this stuff, and I'm so excited to show you all the other things that I've wanna do.

5 (59m 8s):
And it's like, no, no, no. Like, you know, we'll let you know if we need that. But like we, we saw what you did, we liked it, we want that, you know, we need, we need, we need you to just deliver what you've already shown us that you, you can deliver. Right. That's why you got this job at the first place.

1 (59m 24s):
Yeah. It's like, it's like that whole thing of you. The other thing when you were talking was like that thing of like, you are enough. Like you did enough the first time. Yeah. Like, you don't need to get And I. I, that has been my thing is like learning that, like what you just said, which really hit at home just now, which is like, if you're in the callbacks situation, what you did worked fi just fine. It's enough. Yeah. Let's see how it is today. If you do what you did then, but with being present and stuff, like it's enough and going in that way and knowing if they wanna see more or different believe you me, they will let you know, is a great way to go into a callback.

5 (1h 0m 8s):
I think too, the, you know, when I get, like if I got an audition, And I was like, why am I even going out for this? Like, this is not, this character is not like me. This, you know, it, I always Like I, now I know this, I didn't always know this. But also having been in on the EP side of things and casting things and seeing like, like we would watch in Playing House, we would have to cast the next episode that was shooting the next week. Three small parts. We would watch 10 auditions in between takes on an iPhone, and it would be literally a yes no before the audition was even over.

5 (1h 0m 52s):
And that had nothing to do with whether somebody flubbed a line, whether they centered themself in the frame. Right. Like, it was literally just, is this kind of the thing that I was thinking in my head, do they make me laugh? Like the reason our friend Greg Hess got the part of String Bean in the marching band drum line in that episode is because he put himself on tape when he was at home in somewhere for Christmas. And he just went outside and filmed himself jumping into a hot tub. He had one line and it was screaming as he jumped into the pool And. so he just did it in a hot tub.

5 (1h 1m 33s):
And I was Like I want this guy on my set. Like, he's fun. Right. Okay.

2 (1h 1m 37s):
That's hilarious. Because Honest, my son is an actor, and when we were, when I was first doing self tapes for him, I was directing them like movies, like we were outside, we were trying to be in the, in the spaces. They were, they were these epic things. And his agent was like, no, just like standing in, in front of a wall. So that's surprising that you Well,

5 (1h 1m 59s):
I mean, that was just for that one, you know, I, yeah, I mean, auditioning is so hard and it, and it really has nothing. It, it really has little to do with. It

1 (1h 2m 13s):
Does.

5 (1h 2m 14s):
It's your, you know, Like, I mean you, it, it's so much to do with like what you look like, what your type is. And that's like, you cannot change that. So when I, when I audition now, even if I'm like, this is an insane part, I'm like, okay, well this is, this would be the Lenin version of this. This is how right. I would do it if I got this job. And even though these things don't check off or whatever, if they ended up casting me, this is what it would be. And if they don't want that, like, that's not on me. you know? Oh,

1 (1h 2m 46s):
It's just, it's just sort of going to the grocery store and the recipe calls for tomatoes and you're like, yeah, but I also wanna know if we could maybe do the version with Pimentos or whatever, and you're a pimento. And then it's, it's so hard. I think when you're, you're a pimento. I'm a pimento too, but if, but whatever. But if, but it, it was so hard to tell young folks go, you know, going back to when we were in school, it's like, it's so hard to say like, look, be the best motherfucking pimento that you can be. Be go for that thing and really learn and be open. And then at least, you know, like you in Veep at the callback that you fucking rocked it no matter what.

1 (1h 3m 29s):
They may have chosen someone else, they didn't, in this case, that role was yours. It was meant for you, it's yours. But that it's so hard when you're young or even when you're older, like, yeah, whatever, to really understand that this thing that you love that's inside of us that needs to come out, sometimes most of the time won't be picked. And it has nothing to do with, you know, how Yeah. It's just, it's just so hard to get that through to student's head. And so I think theater, conservatories, And, I wanna hear what you two have to say. Like, conservatories are sort of hard because you're telling people at such a young age that you know, it's not about you, but it is about you.

1 (1h 4m 13s):
It's not about you, but it is about you. And so it's hard to know what the f it is about until you have this time under your belt like you do. And we do. Yeah. So that's why Conservatory is so hard and wonderful and amazing. But also for people with self-esteem issues, which we all have to a lesser degree. It can be really, really, really tricky. And a lot of our listeners are like, yeah, or, and our guests are Like I didn't have the, the whatever inside of me to know that if they didn't pick me, it wasn't because I was awful fat, ugly, fill out the adjective,

5 (1h 4m 46s):
You know? Sure. Yeah. don don't think I knew that in theater school either. I somehow, though I did know that I, you know, I would, one day I would find my way Like I remember in high school feeling Like I will find my people. I don't know where, I don't know how something, sorry, I saw that twice this weekend. And then in college, I think it was, you know, I mean, I, I was all in on like dramatic theater, And, you know, ready to go and do Shakespeare, And, you know, all of that.

5 (1h 5m 27s):
I mean, my life ended up going in a different direction and that, that has been the right thing so far. But I mean, for instance, when I got to U C B, because I had the training of a really solid theater school, I feel Like I was, you know, I was set up for success in a way because I, I mean, I looked at the, I was Like I. It can't just be about, you know, game or whatever, you know, like, so I'm also, I'm meeting, I'm meeting what they're teaching me with what I've already learned about myself, about what I think is funny about what I do well and kind of like marrying the two, you know, because I didn't do, I, I mean, Like I said I didn't do hardly do improv in college.

5 (1h 6m 21s):
it was like a lot of intensive, like, you know, it wasn't, E Evansville wasn't kind of like one of those, like, we're gonna break you down to nothing and then build you back up schools. At least for me it might, it might have been that way for others. The thing about Evansville that was so striking was the community for me, like the class, my class, and honestly the couple classes ahead of me and behind me, we are all so supportive of each other. And like Jack McBrayer went to college with me, and he was a couple years ahead of me. He's the one who said, I think you would be good at this a after an improv show.

5 (1h 7m 1s):
And he was instrumental in helping me start doing shows at U C B. And also he helped me when my manager wanted me to sign a three-year contract. And he was like, Lennon, absolutely not. you know? And then there's just tons of like, Mary Catherine Garrison who's in somebody somewhere that I directed last summer. She was like the it girl when I got to Evansville, like there's just, there's And. I've got like so many friends from my year that I still keep in touch with and are like family. And then there's, there's folks that came after me also that, and everybody is their own special breed of, of Cool and something and bringing something to the table.

5 (1h 7m 44s):
But we all are very different. you know,

1 (1h 7m 50s):
You're muted Gina, but I love your, love you so

2 (1h 7m 53s):
Much. Sorry. Usually when we ask people how they made the move from primarily acting to also directing, writing and producing, they say, because it just wanted to make my own content. Yeah. But that's not necessarily true for everybody. It, well, how did you branch out into those things?

5 (1h 8m 13s):
The first thing that I, well, I, I, I hated writing. I kind of still do, but I, I'm good at it. I knew that. Like, but it just, I think the, I don't know if it's like the way I write, it's like laborious. I, you know, I'm, I wanted to be great, you know, and so I, we, you know, I I pour over it over and over again. But yeah, I, I, the first thing I wrote was like, of comedy or theater or whatever. I wrote, I wrote a little bit, I did, it took a screenplay class in college.

5 (1h 8m 53s):
When I studied abroad, they had like a study abroad program in England. And I took a, an amazing screenwriting class and then, and we studied screenplays and how they break down and stuff like that. But the first thing I wrote for was for myself. It was what my one woman show. And it was directed by Jason Mantzoukas. And it was, it came honestly out of, I was doing career coaching with this, with this awesome woman named Betsy Capes at Capes Coaching. And she was kind of a new up and coming And I had met her through Dan Fogler, who I had, I did, you know, the Putnam County Spelling Bee on Broadway?

5 (1h 9m 37s):
Yes. So the, the, in the, the original, like what impetus for that was a, was a play an off Broadway play called Crius, which is a hard word to spell. And it was about a Spelling Bee. And I was in that with Dan Fogler and Rebecca Feldman. And Liz Feldman, who created Dead to Me and a bunch of other amazing people, some of who went on to be in the Broadway show as well. And anyway, that's how I know Dan. So Dan introduced me to his sister-in-law, Betsy, who's starting this. Anyway, long story short, I have these goals that I've set up for myself about what I want.

5 (1h 10m 21s):
And one of the things was I wanted to be on S N L. And so in order to do that, I needed to start putting characters out into the world. And that was terrifying to me, to say to the world, like, look at what I do. Here's what I think is funny. And just like 30 minutes of me, like what? So I wrote that Jason Mantzoukas directed it, and he helped me a ton. And I ran that. I put that up on its feet, And I ran it in New York for about a year before I came to La And I did it here. And when I got my manager, she remarked on how well written it was.

5 (1h 11m 1s):
And, and then I, when Jessica And I started to talk, cuz she was, I think looking for a woman to write with. And we knew each other from U C B in New New York, but we were kind of falling in friend love here in la my man. I was like, well, I'm not a writer. And my manager was like, yes, you are. You're, you're a writer. You wrote this incredible thing. And I was like, well, that was just like that one thing that I was doing. She was like, Lennon, you're a writer. And I was like, okay, so Jess And I, you know, it was just, it wasn't just, I wanna do my own content. it was like, all the stuff we're auditioning for is like, so I don don't formulaic.

5 (1h 11m 45s):
it was like the bitch, the overbearing, you know, friend, the, the weirdo, the slut. And I'm like, neither one of us are only that, you know, or only one thing, And I think we were really interested in telling the story of two full complete women who happened to be in Friendship. And we wrote a pilot for H B O. That was the first thing that we did while we were both on other people's sitcoms. And then that got passed on and my show got canceled within 24 hours after I'd already given notice that we were moving to LA and my husband had of course given up his like, high school principal job in Brooklyn.

5 (1h 12m 32s):
Why not? But then we got the blind script deal for what became Best Friends Forever, which was our short-lived b c Setcom. Short

2 (1h 12m 43s):
But sweet. I mean, yeah. Like really high quality, really good

5 (1h 12m 47s):
Thanks. And then, and then that, you know, kind of led into Playing House. So it's,

1 (1h 12m 56s):
It's amazing. And it's also ins it's inspiring to know that Like I think for me hearing you is like saying, okay, do the things like when you were talking to Dan's sister, right? The coach Yeah. And you wanted, you start out with goals. Okay. So like, the goal is to be on SNL at that time. Okay. So like, it's really hard to get an audition and all that shit for snl, but like, it's, it's like manageable. What it sounds like she had you do was like in, if you believe in woowoo shit, it's like our, the universe doesn't know the difference between you auditioning for SNL and you putting your characters out into the world.

1 (1h 13m 40s):
Yeah. It's not interested in Lauren Michaels, you know, it just wants you to do the thing you wanna do. So I feel like a lot of times, people, actors, performers, writers, we don't take the step of putting the thing out in the world unless it is in the form that we think it should be in, which is on Saturday Night Live. So by you going to, you know, Citizens Brigade and do, and, and all the things and putting your characters out into the world Yeah. You, you, it didn't, wasn't like an immediate SNL situation, but look at it, it, it still works. I think that's the thing. Yeah. That I would wanna tell people. Like the the formula still works if you put out into the world what you want, what is the goal and how can you go closer to it, do that, it's better and

2 (1h 14m 25s):
Just work and just keep working.

5 (1h 14m 27s):
Yeah. I mean, I, I think I felt a tangible shift once I was going somewhere And I didn't know where, you know, I had in mind an end goal of where I thought I was going or what I wanted. I didn't, I didn't even know for myself what was right though, you know? So I'm like, the same thing with, with grad school. Like. I was Like I wanna go to NYU or Yale. So I'm putting myself out there in, in this way for this. But like, once you're on a train going somewhere, wherever the fuck it is and you're excited to be on that train.

5 (1h 15m 8s):
Yeah. Like discovering, building characters, doing a show, doing another fun show. Keep

1 (1h 15m 12s):
Going, keep going. Sit on the

5 (1h 15m 14s):
Train. Then people wanna be on that train, right? Yeah. Nobody is gonna like, reach into your apartment where you are by yourself and pull you out. It's, you know, it's

1 (1h 15m 24s):
So true. Like, it's so true. Oh,

2 (1h 15m 27s):
This is very similar to the conversation about improv because it's the same principle. Yeah. If you're not being self-conscious and not being necessarily very product oriented and just inhabiting the thing that you're making Yeah. It it's inevitably going to be more attractive Exactly. Than anything you're really sweating over.

5 (1h 15m 46s):
Yeah. I mean, and nobody's gonna pull you off the back line, like to come out to do a scene, you have to come forward and say, I think my ideas are valid and important and funny and trust that, you know. And also too, if I always said to my students, like, if you're not having a good time, like change it. It's improv. Like edit it, turn, transform into a panther. Like whatever is gonna make it fun for you. Because if you're not having fun, Lord knows the audience isn't

1 (1h 16m 14s):
Right. And And

5 (1h 16m 15s):
I think nobody wants to watch an audition where you're dreading doing it. Oh

1 (1h 16m 19s):
My God, it must be fucking torture. I've seen it as like helping And I know I've been the actor. And I. Think just to sort of put a, put a point on it, is that like, that's like you're saying improv is the same as life. Like switch it up, nobody fucking cares. If you need to pivot in your life, if you are doing it, be in a, in a way that is true to yourself, pivot, become a panther just in, in real life. Shapeshift do do your thing. Yes. Also, I know I'm mindful of time, so, but I just wanna say also, maybe I'm just wrong at this, but does Francis Conroy know that you need to play her daughter in a new movie?

2 (1h 16m 58s):
Yes.

1 (1h 16m 59s):
Serious.

5 (1h 16m 60s):
I really like Francis Conroy. Dude,

1 (1h 17m 2s):
You guys remind me of each other in so many ways. And I, watch work. I'm like, oh my gosh. Or Sister, somehow I'm putting it out there because I think both of you are just amazing. And I think you Yeah, she's incredible. Can you imagine both of you on one

2 (1h 17m 15s):
Screen? That would be good. That would be good. That would be great. I have to give a little shameless plug be That's for you and for me because my son is in a movie with you. what is it? Yeah, Holland, Michigan, which will be coming out in the fall. I'm the person who DM you. Wait, you talk to me in the hallway. I is all coming back

1 (1h 17m 36s):
Together. Yes. Isaac, right?

2 (1h 17m 38s):
Yes. Isaac. Yeah. Aww, So. that was a really good ex talk about female directors. Mimi Cave is amazing. Yes. I loved every second of working with her or watching Isaac work with her. She, she was really, really cool. She, she created such a nice environment on set and also And I wanted to meet you because, you know, I said, you're in the bitch se universe. I know you're not like a real Housewives person, but you're friends with Casey and Danielle and that's like, you know, I love that whole course. I love that whole universe. And I say hello. It's, it's just truly incredible. Yeah. Seriously, seriously,

0 (1h 18m 14s):
Thank you so much.

3 (1h 18m 19s):
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I Survived Theatre School is an undeniable ink production. Jen, Bosworth Ramirez and Gina Iannucci are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina Iannucci. For more information about this podcast or other goings on of Undeniable Inc, please visit our [e-mail]. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.