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How to Humanist asks life’s questions big and small with the help of brilliant humans along the way.
SHAY:
Happy Pride and happy How to Humanist new episode day. It is Shay Leonia, I'm your host, and I have had such a busy, fruitful, beautiful week this past week. It was just filled with different assignments from AHA for me.
So Wednesday I was given the opportunity to go visit none other than Stonewall Inn, the birthplace of the riots for the pride movement.
And I, you know, I gotta confess, although I am originally from Jersey, right outside the Bronx, and I've walked past Stonewall a million and one times, there are still so many places in the city that I actually haven't been inside. Stonewall was one of them. And I also would be hard-pressed to be able to tell you why it was so significant.
I knew that there were... in my mind, I was like, "Oh, a riot happened there," but I didn't know that the riot was actually riots, and there were three of them over the course of five days, and that they also included singing, dancing, fighting. Like, it was a full-out West Side Story moment.
But some of the people that threw the bricks that night, any one of those nights, they ended up, you know, being on the floats years later when pride parades were happening all over the country. I mean, I just think of how encouraging it is to think on those moments. In that moment, you feel like maybe your efforts are futile, but I don't know if you can relate.
But then you fast-forward to where we're at now, and you see that every single ripple mattered, and it's just so powerful. So if you are ever in the Village, I strongly recommend hitting up Pride Tours NYC, you can find them online, and get a tour. It was a 90-minute walking tour.
I was told that they rarely ever cancel or reschedule due to inclement weather or whatever. But anyway, so that was my Wednesday. Then Thursday and Friday and yesterday was Netroots Nation. If you haven't heard of this conference, it is a progressive conference, and we table there each year.
And I was given the opportunity to table since I'm local. And I met quite a few people that I have had on my wish list to meet. So I was very happy about that. Stay tuned because I'm not gonna say much more about that now, but I will say that it is exciting to know that things are in the works. So, whoo, it was a long, wonderful week.
Oh, I also finished up by singing at karaoke during one of the after parties one night, and I sang Careless Whisper because, of course.
Um, speaking of Careless Whisper, I am so happy that my friend Shane Lucas, who is a music head just like I am, was able to come on the podcast. Now, funny story about Shane and my relationship.
I met Shane from a previous client that I worked with and got to know him there, and was just instantly a huge fan of his. And then when I started working at AHA, he was like, "Hey, I'm a humanist," and I was like, "Get out of town." So that was just super cool to see a familiar face, you know, even if virtually, over at American Humanist Association.
But Shane is a huge deal. He's a huge deal. So he has his company A Great Idea. He is, as you're gonna hear in the podcast, gonna talk about not one, but two TED Talks that he's doing. Oh, shoot, I forgot to look up if it came out already or not. I'll put it in the show notes if it's there. If not, just stay tuned.
But here's his bio. So Shane Lucas leads A Great Idea, an award-winning agency delivering digital and print design and content solutions nationwide to grow, empower, and activate brand advocates for purpose-driven companies and organizations. In addition to his 10 years of success leading AGI, he is a proud humanist, lifelong harm reduction organizer, author, and public speaker named one of GD USA's Designers for Good.
This conversation is not gonna be about most of any of that. This conversation is gonna be something that does not get discussed often enough, at least in my opinion. It's gonna be talking about foster care, because if we think about how many queer kids experience losing their families or getting put into these positions where they don't have anywhere to turn, I just think it was such a powerful conversation to hear about Shane's experience with him and his partner being foster parents.
And before we get into the episode, I will say that there is mention of his dog Rock, who is on that part of his journey where he's winding down. So if you don't wanna hear about that, I'll put a little warning if you wanna skip ahead. But I think it would be a nice honor to Rock if you're able to stick around and listen. Just do whatever you're capable of.
I will put any information in the show notes so that you can get to know Shane. He is happy to answer any questions about becoming a foster parent, because as he mentions, this is something that we're in desperate need of around the country. And imagine what an impact you could make being a humanist and being a foster parent.
So continue to listen on, and thank you for being here.
SHAY:
I haven't gotten to see this background that you have. What... This background of yours is fabulous.
SHANE:
This is the Great Idea Studio, so this is Greensboro. This is where I come to work three days a week. So the rest of the team is remote. I come here. My computer system's all in the back.
This is my front area. You can see some of my record collection...
SHAY:
Yeah, I know. That's why I'm...
SHANE:
...some of my record collection...
SHAY:
I'm foaming at the mouth.
SHANE:
Yeah, I know. Yeah, music's a big deal for me. And then the whole walls are just covered with... And then actually there's a little puppy here too.
There, yeah, you see him.
SHAY:
Oh, puppy, wait, wait. I need... puppy, puppy vision. Hold on. Oh, hello. Hi.
SHANE:
That's Lou. She's my youngest. So the old man, he is here too. He's...
SHAY:
Oh my gosh, you have more puppies?
SHANE:
Oh yeah. There's my old man. Oh, he's 14 and a half, so he's up there. And he was my first. I love him.
SHAY:
All you see offscreen is this dog's tail just wagging, just contentment. Just all about what dogs are... Hi, sweetheart.
SHANE:
He'll take all the attention.
SHAY:
Yeah, we'll do the entire interview just about Lou.
SHANE:
The entire interview will just be about Lou.
SHAY:
I would not mind. Her name is Lo?
SHANE:
Lou.
SHAY:
Oh, Lou.
SHANE:
Oh my gosh, wait. Short for anything?
SHANE:
She was at two months, she was abandoned. They're both rescues. Somebody had named her Louise, and...
SHAY:
Louise is a lovely name.
SHANE:
If you're out there and you're named Louise, you have a place in this world. We appreciate you. She feels like a Lou.
Rock is my oldest, my bigger dog. They have just been inseparable since they began and they have roughhoused until this last few months. His myelopathy's kinda kicked in, so it's a little bit harder for him. But they've been roughhousing the entire time. So she's, I would say, just not a gentle dog. She is a lovable, just beautiful mutt whose DNA itself is just a hot genetic mess of chaos. The best.
And so Lou just feels good. Just all-encompassing.
SHAY:
I just finished watching my weekly We Rate Dogs video, so I just got to see the countdown, and I'm freshly just vulnerable and soft and squishy all about puppies. Not that I'm ever not, but it's fresh for me 'cause I'm just like, "Oh, I want one so bad."
[SHAY interjects: In case you're unfamiliar with We Rate Dogs, it is a social media channel... I can't remember the name of the guy who hosts it. Do I even know the name of the guy? All right, well, I need to rectify that immediately. However, you would recognize We Rate Dogs if you've ever been driving behind somebody who has a "Tell Your Dog I Said Hi" bumper sticker, or sticker in their window.
That's We Rate Dogs, and every week they do like a countdown of the week's funniest dogs or incredible dog stories. So it's really the best account for dog lovers. But the host, whose name is failing me right now, is also a big social justice advocate. So yeah, follow We Rate Dogs.]
SHANE:
Yeah, we'll probably get another puppy before too long. We're definitely a dog household. Oh, I...
SHAY:
I love that. Keep me posted.
SHANE:
They're with me every day. They get used to it. And so they travel with me to the studio every day. Or every day that I come here. Obviously I'm home most of the time.
SHAY:
Oh, I love that.
So hi, Shane.
SHANE:
Hi, Shay. It's great to see you. It's been a minute.
SHAY:
I know. It's great to see you too. So I don't know, how comfortable do you feel sticking with this topic that I've invited you on to talk about?
SHANE:
I think we could talk about a few things. One thing I would love to talk about, just because it's not out yet so I'm not sure when you're looking to air this, is my second TED Talk will be coming up, and it's really about values conflict. So I would love to talk a little bit about that. Although I don't, again, know when it will come out. As soon as one of the presenters has theirs, typically it'll be all of us. 'Cause this is my second, right?
I could talk a little bit about TED Talks and that.
SHAY:
Brush that off your shoulder real quick, Shane.
SHANE:
I could talk about why. I got contacted by my hometown to put in for it and do it, and so it was a good opportunity to go back to my hometown and what that feeling is like, and then to go back and talk about Midwest values, especially as somebody who grew up in the Midwest.
So I'd love to talk about the TED Talk. And then yeah, other than that, I think I'm happy to talk about what we do at AGI in terms of our commitments, and certainly we employ... I would say we're very centered in humanist practice, when you talk about empathy-led work, when we talk about what it means to work with organizations, even including faith-based organizations. And I loved, and I may reference it during the interview, the interview you did with the Norwegian representative. There was a really good one.
But also when you talk to your friend of faith, and really talking about shared practices and where there's overlap, I think can be...
SHAY:
Oh my gosh, Shane, you've been listening. Oh my gosh. Thank you so much.
SHANE:
I try my best.
It's isn't it crazy how when we first met, I didn't even know what humanism was, and now I'm the other way.
But you're so amazing. You always bring, again, I think you just bring such an energy and a generosity of goodwill into the conversation that I think you are such a great fit for that narrative, right? For bringing that forward about what it means to see people and welcome people as they are. And I think that's lovely.
SHAY:
Thank you, Shane. And I feel like there's so many other people out in the world like that, which is why we want people to know that there is such a thing as this, that you can feel like you belong. But it was just so serendipitous to have rediscovered you and be like, "Oh yeah, I actually, I've known about AHA."
So there goes the tail again. Hi, Lou. Hi. Hi, sweetheart.
Is that gonna be distracting? Do I need to move her?
SHANE:
Not at all.
SHAY:
Not distracting in a bad way. It's just making my heart pitter-pat. So...
SHANE:
The tail does so much labor. It is a weapon in the night at times.
SHAY:
Aw.
SHANE:
She can't help it. She's just so happy. She can't. When she dreams, same thing.
SHAY:
Oh my gosh, she's a happy dreamer?
[SHAY interjects: Okay, this is where we're about to start talking about Shane's dog Rock and what he's going through. So if you're feeling very sensitive right now and you wanna skip ahead, if you go to like the 14 or 15-minute mark, you should be good.]
SHANE:
Yeah, Rock is weirder though, 'cause Rock will chase stuff in his dreams. So she's just kinda happy. But Rock will chase things, so he'll literally be chasing and he's... he lays on his side 'cause shepherds don't typically go on their back. They're just typically kind of on their side. And so he'll just be chasing, and he'll be barking at it. And it's the only time he barks.
SHAY:
Oh my gosh.
SHANE:
Because she barks all the time. He'll bark in his dreams. And that's how we know he's actually okay, 'cause trust me, this is a very hard time for us with him because...
SHAY:
I can imagine.
SHANE:
One, he's my first puppy that's mine, like not as a kid, but as an adult. And so he is nearing his end of journey. And so it is that process of keeping it palliative, ensuring that he's comfortable.
He's also got what's common for shepherds, which is myelopathy, and that is where they... It's basically like ALS for humans. So boxers and shepherds both get it. And basically, he's losing the ability to control his back legs right now, and you can see that, 'cause sometimes he'll just splat. And that will progress into the rest of him, so it'll go to his front paws. It will go, eventually, if he lives long enough, from not a heart attack, or if he's not suffering, he will probably suffocate, because it will stop his lungs.
And so obviously we are very careful about where his suffering is and how to manage that. Right now, while he is challenged, so he cannot do stairs anymore. I have to pick him up everywhere, and I have to pick him up sometimes from the floor when he can't get up. That's fine. But his tail still wags, and he still dreams. He still gets pets. He's still the puppy that he is.
This is the hardest part. Even when I worked in serious illness care, so we branded a number of from the North Carolina Serious Illness Coalition to other initiatives around hospice, it's one of the hardest conversations to have, is to figure out where, especially when someone cannot articulate where they're feeling. So if they are at a point where they're non-verbal or whatever it is, and it's really hard to glean, are you good? Are you ready? Are you ready to close this book?
And he can't do that, right? He can't tell me. So the journey with him is very much about, for me, it's a new practice. I've walked many people through that part of their end of life. But a dog can't tell me.
SHAY:
Yeah.
SHANE:
They can tell you a little bit when they're in pain, but they can't, it's not like they can be like, "Woof, pain." They can't do that. And so it's really monitoring where he's at, and is he comfortable, and is he not suffering? And at what point do we determine that? So trying to do it together.
We were nervous a few weeks ago. It was looking bad. We took care of him, and he's doing all right. But at some point, when they stop being themselves, then we have that harder conversation.
SHAY:
Yeah.
Sucks. I'm so sorry that you're going through that right now.
SHANE:
It's part of our agreement.
It's funny, and again, I don't know if we're starting the interview or not yet.
SHAY:
Yeah. Hey, why not?
SHANE:
Because it's different. It's a weird thing to say, but it is, when you become a parent for a puppy, the agreement is... and technically a parent in general, you are with those individuals, those young people, or should be ideally, with them for the entirety of their journey. And how difficult or challenging that journey is, you are there, right?
And so the agreement with a puppy or a pet, most of the time, very few of them, turtles aside, whales... if you have a pet whale, that's kinda cool. But other than those, you really have to make peace, if you're going to have that pet from the beginning when they're cute and cuddly, that you're gonna take them through their entire journey. And that is part of what I see as my ethical agreement, right?
I have to be thoughtful about what this process is. So as someone who's processed death very early on from a parent and things like that, it was an early conversation I had. And people were like, "Why are you already thinking about that?" And I'm like, "Because it will get harder as we go through that process. And if I'm not doing the groundwork now, when it's harder, I won't have any foundation. I'll be too responsive to the emotional and the grief than I will to the needs of what my puppy needs."
And why this sort of very loosely comes back to things like foster care is the same thing, where you are really trying to prioritize youth. Especially what we do, is we do respite care, and so we're working with youth usually when they're urgently coming in for need. Sometimes it's as they're transitioning from one maybe care facility or one family to another. But oftentimes it is being asked when an individual comes into care for the first time.
And so they are shell-shocked, you know, is an understatement. So many things are being switched around on them. They are coming often from an environment that is challenged, and your job is not to fix it, 'cause you can't. Your job is to respond and make sure you're creating as healthy an environment as possible, and bringing that empathy in that process.
To me, as people who don't have children, my partner and I, we both come from very unstable childhoods. We come from environments that were very challenging. Any time I'm making a decision about a life that I am now caregiving for, then I have to really think about in what ways I am bringing myself. Am I prepared for this? How am I getting support in that? And then so that I can center their care, right? To make sure that this stays about them.
With the puppy right now, it's just constantly monitoring and making sure he's in a good place, and it's palliative. When it comes to other forms of caregiving, it's really about thinking about the person and, as they are sharing where they're at, processing and making space for that.
So a weird kind of grouping of those, but they're all in my head together, so I'm thinking about what it means to provide care.
SHAY:
You're right, there is so much overlap there that I hadn't even considered, about what you agree to take on when you take on these responsibilities.
And I think that's one of the things that I keep getting confronted with, is everybody's like, "Oh my gosh, Shay, you're obsessed with dogs. Why don't you have a dog yet?" And I'm like, "Because I know what they need, just from my brief time as being like a dog foster. And I'm not even home enough, let alone able to provide the kind of life that I would wanna give them.
And when I know that there are gonna be other options out there for them most of the time, hopefully, like a family that has kids or somebody that is very adventurous and has time to go hiking with them, I'm just not in that place right now. I am working full time at a nonprofit, and then I am a wedding singer on the weekends.
There is no... Oh, you didn't know that?
SHANE:
We gotta put a pin in that 'cause I definitely wanna come back to that. But I love what you're saying though, and it is really critical, because it is funny in some ways. I'm talking about the puppies, that they cannot convey their feelings, right? They know they feel things, they cannot tell us in their words, right?
People can't either. And even I'm sure I'm guilty of this plenty. I'm sure my partner will point out all the places that I do it, or my team members will be like, "Oh, we know what you're thinking. You just can't..." 'Cause all of us run through this dialogue in our own head. We're still sometimes coming to realizations in spaces in our own lives. And people can see it from external spaces, sure, but it's really hard to go through that process internally and kinda know it, and then be able to articulate and ask for it, if it's care you need or whatever the case may be.
And that is the reality. In this situation the puppy can't say anything. And when you have a young person, they may not. But adults can't do it either. And I love what you're saying about, "I recognize where I can be the most good, where I can provide the most care, the most empathy, the most..."
In order to have this living being thrive in my care, I need to be able to have these things. I wish people would do that.
I actually took care of a friend's dog for about nine months before I got Rock. Because I was like, "Nine months, great. I'm gonna try this, and I'm gonna take the dog out." And the dog was, what was his name? Gus? Gus was probably 11 or 12. So he was an older dog too, so he had his routines. And he was a mean dog at times. And a runner. He was a runner.
So I did a lot of running. Not running laps, running away, and I mean from everybody. Yeah, some dogs are just like, once they get off that leash, they're like, "Free," and they don't know where they're going. They just go. And Gus was a runner. And so I ran very many places around the neighborhood, because it wasn't like I let him off leash. It was just like, as soon as there was any second of a break, that dog was gone. And he loved it. And he would come back, but he was gone.
But I learned in those nine months whether or not I was going to be able to care for a dog, and with the amount of travel and the amount of life that I wanted to have, is this a space I can have? And in a way, I'm giving myself permission. Am I permitting myself to have this? Not because I want it, because wanting something doesn't mean you have the responsibility and the capability and the skillset to do it.
There are a lot of things I wanna be. A wedding singer. No one would want that for me. I could do a mean Pearl Jam maybe, and I mean it would probably hurt. But I would do it.
But knowing those parameters says a lot about you though, Shay. It says a lot. To me, that ties back to a lot of humanist principle as well. It ties back to an empathy that extends beyond ourselves. It's not just about the desire I have, but it is about what is the impact of that desire? What is the impact of my decisions on those around me? How am I engaged in this world in a way that is constructive and allows other people to thrive?
That's what certainly fuels my service, fuels my work. And I love that you said that, 'cause I think it is that introspective moment of having to be like, "Sometimes not the time. Sometimes you're not in a position."
I wish, because again, we do foster care, I've worked with high-risk youth, I wish a lot of people would do that before having children. I love that people want to have children in this world. I think it's great. If you wanna grow your family, awesome. But hubris alone does not take care of a kid, and I think that is the... I wish more people had opportunities to really think about those decisions.
In a way they do, 'cause I'm a big fan of Planned Parenthood, all reproductive justice. I love when education and resources are available for all people to live and thrive in the way they want to. I wish the nation felt the same.
SHAY:
Same. Yep. Ditto.
So that people could make those decisions in their best framework, in their most empathetic, responsible selves.
But we're so far away from... even right now I'm just feeling some solace in the reckoning that seems to be happening around, even just women realizing, "Oh, I don't have to have kids?" That's such a major wake-up call.
What I'm seeing as the consequence of that for those who aren't handling that realization well, I'm really trying to be careful how I'm wording this. I can't remember his name right now, but there is this self-proclaimed guru online. We all see his clips, and he's had everyone from Jay Shetty on to everyone. And he literally brought on a guest that was saying, "How do we fix this? How do we make more women have kids so that we don't lessen our chances?"
Are you kidding me? I'm not even wording it as offensively as it was, but it was just so disgusting when we're asking for so little. For so little, and to not have to be the primary parent.
And I'm saying all of this to say is that in the United States in particular, there is just this unspoken rule, especially in a heteronormative relationship, that the woman is gonna take on the brunt of the mental capacity of everything.
I mean, we've seen those clips from late night of fathers being interviewed about, "Hey, what are your daughters' birthdays?" And they have no idea. So just, we're sick of that. And to know that they still are thinking, "All right, but tradition says, time to have a kid."
I don't even... I'm getting to that point where I get angry and flustered in my head. I'm hearing all of the examples, so I wanna be clear. I just feel so awful for all of these people who end up writing in anonymously to whatever source will amplify their story about how they wish they had known.
And I agree with you, just the opportunity to foster kids, to not have any guarantee or control over the situation, especially on how somebody else is gonna behave, is crucial.
SHANE:
No, I appreciate you sharing that, 'cause I laugh only because the absurdity is on so many levels in the current moment. And I think you're speaking into so many things. And I wanna highlight one good example, in case you hadn't heard this. You may have.
I think it's Tennessee that is making June nuclear family month to counter LGBTQ+ families, and to counter... which, again, I think drives to your point, this need to reassert or reaffirm a model that frankly didn't work in the first place, right? It was fundamentally inequitable. It fundamentally was harmful. It put a great deal of power... again, this is an era we are trying to salvage, that cis women did not have the ability to do credit cards or checking accounts. They didn't have the financial infrastructure.
All the things that we're trying to call back to from this era, a woebegone era that should be woebegone. It was never good, and the fantasy of it is entirely white supremacist and entirely misogynist in its base.
But you're hearing so much of this call, and I think it speaks to your point about like, why aren't they having kids? And that's actually not... I don't know the statistics on how many young people are having children. What I will say is that they're waiting longer, and I think that is a win on so many levels.
I grew up and I started with Planned Parenthood when I was 14. And I'm so grateful we have Planned Parenthood as a client now, and it's something I'm really proud of. Back then they were bombing them, you know, and this is the 1980s into the '90s. And so this conversation, all the way from Roe v. Wade's passing all the way through the destruction of Roe v. Wade, there has been just a constant desire to try to take, brick by brick, to take away the decisions and the abilities for people who have the biology to give birth, to be able to control those processes.
And that is incredibly frustrating, right? Because it should seem like a no-brainer. In fact it was, in some cases, right? Roe v. Wade had faith-based support. It had a lot of support early on because of the destruction and damage done, the self-inflicted harm that was done in those eras when those services weren't available. There was already a desire for people to control when they had the families that they want to have, and I think that creates a more and healthier family system. Because that is a time when people are prepared for, or at least, if they're not prepared, there is a fertile groundwork, no pun intended, in order for them to be in that space to raise their kids and let them thrive, right?
But what you're hearing and what you've said is, "No, what we wanna do is take away all this access." We're gonna have a lot of unintended pregnancies in that process, and I'm sure those numbers, again, it will take a few years. That's the hard part. It's not a night and day, it's not a light switch. It will take years, but you'll start having more unintended pregnancies, and out of that, you're gonna get a lot of unintended needs for childcare. You're gonna get a lot of harms that are done to those young people, 'cause again, negligence is a key reason we tend to see them in foster care. So all of those things are going to happen and continue to happen more and more because there aren't resources.
Simultaneously with pulling away access to reproductive justice and the ability to access those resources, is a reduction in public services, right? We've all heard about the decimation of so many services that were there to care for young people and to care for young parents, to be able to do that support.
So those two things are happening at the same time. So more young people, but less resources to care for the young people, are all going to happen at the same time. And then what?
So it's hard to believe that the people who you're talking about, who tend to be more conservative, and again I think that goes relatively without saying, both speak of a need to create more families, and yet simultaneously harm those families directly out the gate.
And I could understand, if they were consistent in that process, and their empathy and their desire to support those families was in fact throughout the entirety of the young person's existence. But instead, it's these populations that are taking away their school lunches. It's the same populations that are taking away early childcare. It's the population that are ripping away any public school systems and access, depending on your resourcing. Same population.
And that tells you that what they don't mean is the wellbeing of the parent. And as you said, in many cases the caregiving parent, and in many cases when it is single parenthood, it is oftentimes fem of center that they just continue to want to cause harm on a given daily basis. And it is infuriating.
So to watch them be like, "Nuclear family mo-..." It wasn't good. It was called nuclear 'cause it blew up everybody in the process. Whoever said, "Oh, nuclear is great..." Nuclear energy, I guess, but family? Like, you put your microwave dinner next to them and I guess it's done in a couple minutes.
So yeah, it is unfortunate, because if they came from a space of empathy, if they were conservative in a way that held that continuity of logic, then they would actually be in favor of many of the services, many of the abilities for a community and neighborhood and people to respond collectively to ensure that every young person thrives in their own bodies, in their own ways.
But that has historically not been the case. It's certainly not the case in what we're seeing today. And instead what we're just watching is a harm unfold.
SHAY:
Yeah, and it's interesting too, because it's not even just those who don't necessarily have the resources or accessibility to what is available to them. It's also the fact that we have people like Nick Cannon in the spotlight, or others who just have these breeding kinks.
There was this story I heard recently of a woman saying that she just discovered her one of her close guy friends was plotting to mislead six different women to get them all pregnant, just because he wanted to claim the power of being a father of six children, and was willing to dupe women into it.
So it's just, it's like whether you have the resources or not, the emotional damage and infliction... 'cause you cannot be a present parent when you have that many kids from that many different... It's just insanity to me.
And that part comes back to the power that is demonstrated, a lot of which was in religious text, about this idea of men being this all-powerful... But the resources at the end of the day is what's killing me, because them wanting to strip...
Hi, Lou.
...them wanting to strip the resources is leaving us all in this predicament, because at the end of the day, stripping away the resources is what is impacting the people that are able to give birth. And they're the ones that need it the most, especially those that are marginalized and ones of color, because right now Black women are risking their lives each time. Everyone is risking their life, but Black women are more than three to four times more likely to risk their life.
SHANE:
And I think it comes down to also, it's funny when you... Not funny, but we talk about accountability, right? And the fact is a misogynist system is fundamentally set up so that men do not have to take accountability for the harms that they cause.
I've not heard too much about that scenario. I guess part of it may be my sort of queer perspective, whether...
SHAY:
There was an SVU episode.
SHANE:
An SVU episode?
SHAY:
Yeah. John Stamos played the guy that was going around and just spreading his seed, so to speak.
SHANE:
I believe it, because there's no... The history of culpability, this is again, when I started Planned Parenthood when I was a teenager, and then throughout much of my life working alongside reproductive justice leaders, right? There is always this... And it is unfair, and I think it needs to be said clearly. It is unfair that oftentimes the responsibility always lays at the feet primarily of the cis women who are talked about within these conversations. And that happens over and over again, right?
It happens in IDD conversations. It happens in all these conversations, as if... And we could talk about parallels in other areas, like racism always, never lands at the feet of white people. It always lands at the feet of people of color. And it's like, "Whoa, we created it," right?
So in the same way, many of these issues around reproductive justice are really at the feet of men. They are at the feet of men who do not take that responsibility. And the court systems have rarely created punitive responses to this. They've oftentimes penalized, again, primarily cis women, but not only in the scenario, the most within the system.
The responsibility, it never feels right. It's the "You dressed this way, therefore..." and that is a horrifying narrative that just routinely goes through the environment and goes through our system.
And I don't think it's gonna change anytime soon. I'm really trying to flag trends that I think don't suggest we're going to see a move away from that anytime soon. I think we're gonna actually see it get worse.
But not to be all Chicken Little about it, but I actually think we're moving away from systems critique, and we're moving more toward the word that everyone's using, the buzzword, is agentic critique, right? Or agentic behavior. And I think that is a code... It's used in AI referencing, but you're seeing it among social media, you're seeing it among other places. This idea of agency and my own, controlling my own mobility, my own future. This idea of agency, which I love. As somebody who feels very agentic and has spent his life being very agentic, including the controversy, including all the things, including the challenges to that agency, I understand it.
But I think the idea of penalizing people for facing systemic oppression by laying it at the feet of them as an individual, this sort of example of what I call the Oprah problem too, which is, again, if one woman of color can be successful, then somehow all women of color face the burden of, "Clearly it's possible, so if it didn't happen for you, it must be an individual problem," rather than really systems of oppression.
And again, for every Oprah, and I'm... she's amazing. Love Oprah. Love you, Oprah, if you're hearing this. Awesome. But I'm sure there were another thousand, ten thousand, a hundred thousand other women of color who were incredibly amazing women who could do a lot of things. And Oprah delivered when the opportunities came, but the opportunity came once, right? The opportunity came in a very limited way to a very limited number of people, and she did a lot.
And then those opportunities just diminished because everybody looked at it and said, "See? It's possible. We don't have to change our system because the system itself is not broken." But the system is broken. And that's the thing, is that I think we're moving into a period where people don't wanna look at the systems.
I think they looked at what happened after the Floyd protests. I think they looked at all those things and said, "Well, you threw all this system stuff at me. I'm very uncomfortable with it because I benefit from these systems. Again, as a white cis male, I benefit from these systems, and I recognize that. And so I would rather make this about your agency and your inability individually to succeed in this system, because then it makes me feel like it was more fair, when it was never fair."
And to me, when we talk about reproductive justice, so much of that, again, is a systems issue. It is where access to resources, access to information, access to care, access to just facts, frankly. Again, even if you are going to one of these faux community, what is it, community pregnancy centers, which are themselves a travesty of just such gross, immoral behavior.
[SHAY interjects: What Shane is mentioning about the pregnancy centers, I'm not gonna go into it too much right now. They're called crisis pregnancy centers, because we are actually gonna be having somebody come on the podcast to discuss it more. But for now, all you need to know is that there are pregnancy centers around the country that are posing to be pro-women's healthcare and reproductive health, but they are actually using tactics to dissuade these people from being able to get the healthcare that they need. So really nasty stuff.]
SHANE:
And that, it just, the system stacks so hard. And I think if we end up leaning too hard in agentic mindsets, while it is great to think about people who are able to overcome systems barriers, there are still systems barriers. And our job is to fight and challenge and push those barriers out, get rid of them, create a more equitable system.
When you think about the Oprah example that you gave, how ridiculous is it when you think about essentially what they're saying is, "Oh, look at you. You squeezed through. Look at you. Well done. You found that little hole that we left uncaulked." What the fuck? Fix it.
SHAY:
Like...
SHANE:
But see, what it does is, for people in privilege, it says, "See? The system's not rigged." And then what I'm gonna do is say, "Well, the system's not rigged. The people who just didn't make it through," the other, again, let's say a hundred thousand other women of color, "that's on them. They just weren't working hard enough."
And I think if you've spent time with any immigrants, if you've spent time with any community members who, again, do not intersect with high amounts of privilege, just are coming from very different places, very different challenges in different ways, working really hard. Working so hard.
And it's not to say that people with privilege don't work hard. It's just that the benefits for working hard are just clearer, further forward, fastest. The amount of work that gets employed feels like work, and I don't wanna invalidate anybody's stuff. I appreciate all the people who are doing all the work.
But it's important to note that in a system that is fundamentally stacked, the amount of work I put in is going to be very different and get a very different result than the amount of work that someone of color or someone of trans identities will face in putting in the same amount of labor.
SHAY:
Absolutely. So are you finding when you're approaching these foster situations and the kids that are coming into foster... First of all, what's the age range that you're usually encountering?
SHANE:
So we tend to prioritize a little bit older.
SHAY:
Love that.
SHANE:
Everybody wants a baby. There are a lot of responsibilities, and people who are able to do that level of care and do that kind of infant care, brilliant, love you, glad you're in the system. Really important work. There are less people who are comfortable working with older youth, and there are reasons for that.
There are just systemic challenges to that. Part of it is accountability and responsibility. Part of it is that now they can talk to you, and what they say to you isn't always good. They can set your place on fire. They can do all kinds of things. And so they just require more attention and more attentiveness and more care, right?
And that's not to say, again, all youth. It's just that many of these youth are coming in from neglect or abuse. There's a reason they're in care, for a variety of reasons. And that displacement, for whatever reason, it's hard. It's a trauma. If I were displaced in any way, it would take me a while to figure out how I'm gonna respond.
This young person has a toolbox that's a little bit leaner, and so they're just working through all of those things. And they're trying to figure out, "How am I a kid? This is my fourth place in two weeks." So all of these things they are processing at the same time.
And so you have to be ready for that. Add to that puberty, add to that just teenage angst, and it can be a really big mix.
Now, that being said, some youth we've had have been phenomenal. Some youth we've had, there's a lot of needing the world to feel that same hurt, and they will go out of their ways to create that hurt. And so you have to be prepared for it.
Again, both my partner and I come from, I would consider, very challenged households. We are familiar with a lot of instabilities and a lot of different violences or addictions or things like that. But we're both white, and so we also recognize we also come to the space with privilege in our own way. And so we have to be really conscious and be able to listen and make sure that we're both setting ground rules and also trying to help them find the agency, since we're on that word, in the ways that they have had to self-parent oftentimes. And make sure that we acknowledge what that self-parenting means and where its limits are.
'Cause again, you can't eat Pop-Tarts for every meal. So that's a problem. But if you've been fending for yourself since you were two, you have systems by which you operate.
SHAY:
Wow. I'm so curious how you... 'Cause my knowledge of what I've witnessed of foster parenting comes from the TV show This Is Us, and also the movie the Oscar-worthy Free Willy.
Yeah, I can't believe Michael Madsen's gone. But yeah, I just remember there was this scene where Beth, who is the foster mother to this kid, it's their first time fostering, and they wanna talk to her about brushing her hair, but they don't know how to broach the subject.
So I'm like, if I were a foster kid and I was able to see in hindsight what I was gonna get into by having you as my caregiver, I would be thrilled. So how do you balance not overwhelming them with this emotional intelligence that you have and your ability and toolbox to help them with many and any situation that they might be going through, while also recognizing that might be too much?
SHANE:
One thing I'll say, and I appreciate that, is there's no one way, just like there's no one way to work with a human being at any level, right? So you are learning and listening and kinda working alongside it.
Two, there's no perfect. And anybody who's an actual full-time parent I'm sure knows this. You're going to cause that kid to go to therapy. So just know that. You could do all the right things, and I've seen this, like all the right things, and then the kid goes to therapy going, "I don't know. Everything was so perfect, and they were so attentive, and I was like, 'Leave me alone.'" And you're like, "Okay. What do you want? Like, I don't get it."
So humans are humans, and there's foibles, there's challenges in all of them, right? So these are people who are coming into care.
Thankfully, the foster system has a lot of training and a lot of support systems that are available, and that helps that process. It helps that my partner was a schoolteacher, so again, there's some training there that he has working with youth. I worked with high-risk youth, so I'm familiar with some of that. But that was many years ago. And that at least gives us a sense of where empathy is, and that we're like, "Okay, well here's the places we think we can be helpful."
And then there's just ongoing training to kinda help get our skillsets, 'cause there are things that shock us. And there are moments we've had with young people that are like, "I don't know what to..." Technology's a big one, right? Technology changes all the time. Reliance on social media, what they do on social media, how they connect on social media, how they try to control and throw gates on stuff. That's hard. So all of those things are part of our learning process.
One thing I try to do is drive home the idea that we will never live in their shoes. Especially because they're coming to us a little bit older, we don't know all the displacement. We don't know the challenges that are in that process. We're not here to say it's going to be all better. We're not here to say it's going to get fixed. What we are here to do is to listen and make sure that we help you thrive as best as we can.
And that sometimes just means making sure you take your meds if you have prescription meds, making sure you're fed, that you're in a safe place, that you are getting enough sleep, that you're getting to your school on time. All the things that just on a practical base level just allow you some space.
A lot of this is getting them to behavioral health professionals that they can access, so they can have some of those conversations with professionals who are better skilled and more appropriately positioned to do so.
Sometimes though, again, two of the cases we've had have been very long-term respite care, so over eight months into a year. So typically respite is short-term, so it's maybe a weekend, sometimes a week, sometimes maybe even up to a month. We have had some long-term.
And that's really involved building more of a relationship over time. And we've seen that both tested. We've seen young people really want to assert and try to drive because they're familiar with the hostile household and they really want a hostile household. And we're like, "We're not that household," and have that conversation.
And sometimes we've seen them be incredibly capable, where they've been self-parenting for a very long time. And so our job at that point is to make sure where they're self-parenting and they feel secure and they can manage those levels, like if they wanna do their own laundry.
We had one young person who really loved, she came from a Caribbean American background, and so she had a particular type of food that she liked to prepare. And so she would make dinner once in a while because that was what she wanted to do. She was like, "Can I... Do you mind if I make dinner? 'Cause this is what I'm familiar with. This is what I really love."
And I forget, it's the corn with the hot sauce on it. I'm blanking on it. It's really good. It's a street food in many nations in Central and South America.
[SHAY interjects: It could be... My first thought was elote, but when he said Caribbean, so I think it might have been Trinidadian boiled corn, which is apparently when you marinate it in coconut milk with habanero peppers, and then put a whole ton of herbs and stuff in. It just, anyway, it sounds delicious.]
SHANE:
But she really missed it, and she really wanted... She was like, "I know how to make it. I've been making it for myself for a long time." And so that was helpful for her, because it also, in a household with two white guys in the woods, which is where we live, on several acres of woods, it really gave her space to feel like something familiar.
We made sure, with her social worker and other places, that she felt safe, all the things. But we do not share the cultural depth that she was used to. And so she just spent some time teaching us, and sometimes we spent some time learning on our own. And we really worked hard to make sure that she felt comfortable, and she expressed that she did feel comfortable the whole time.
But things like that were really helpful to help her feel like, "You are not just doing this for me, but I'm here and kinda participating in this," because she had always been a contributing member, taking care of other people in her household.
And so we were really careful about, if this is what you wanna do, we'll do the dishes. We'll get all these pieces done. And we've had young people come in and they wanna do their laundry. And sometimes they shouldn't, they don't know how. And so they've been doing it, and we kinda do it alongside them, and we're like, "Oh, what if you actually broke these out in colors? What if you did... We can do two different ones."
And so, but again, that is different than their lived experience. No guardian, no caregiver has been there to help them in that process. But they have done it. And as a testament to their strengths and their courage and their resilience, that they are here and doing this work, and they figured their pathway out.
I relate to that. While I was not a foster child, I came from a very fractious and hostile household. So I am familiar with self-parenting. And so no one taught me how to do stuff. And I did things like put pudding as frosting on cakes, and I made cakes for dinner because I could.
SHAY:
Aw.
SHANE:
'Cause there was no parenting. Yeah. And so it wasn't good. There should've been somebody there, a hundred percent.
And so we just try to make sure, because they're only with us for a short amount of time, we work with them to essentially transition to where, if they don't already have a more permanent placement, we help them in that process. But our job is just to make sure that they transition healthy, that they're oftentimes coming in out of urgency, and we just give them space to do that.
SHAY:
Not that you intend to be forgettable, but having listened to several stories of different adults who went through foster care, it's great to hear them being able to pull out a few names of people that really made a difference in their lives. And I'm sure that you guys are those people.
SHANE:
We try our best. I appreciate that.
I think we've talked about it, and why you do it is important. And again, it comes back to my own biography and why I care about service and why being and doing work that is transformative is just at, to me, it's at the very heart of the work that I do. How I wanna spend my effort, how I wanna write my story, how I wanna do this life.
And so I appreciate it if they acknowledge it and it's there. That's great. That's lovely. But if they're thriving, if they find their pathway to then move on and continue their lives and we are just a footnote, if that, fine, right?
If you're doing community work and what you want is a big thank you, you're probably not doing it for the right reason.
SHAY:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
As part of what they're finding familiar, how do you balance if they're coming into your home and they... Like, have you encountered any foster kids that have deeply religious beliefs?
SHANE:
So it's a combo. I've actually had discussions in the past with some of the licensing and the social care services. It's a challenge.
One of the big challenges is not actually young people. Young people oftentimes come in and they have an idea of where they wanna be, and then we coordinate. So if they wanna go to services, we will take them to services. We will join them if they want us to, or we will wait outside if that's what they want, however it is that they engage in their faith practice.
I would say the bigger challenge sometimes, at least that I've felt throughout the foster care system, is that religious institutions are very generous in working to try to provide foster system support. And I think that's great.
What makes me nervous about it is that, and there are stats on this, there are a disproportionate number of kids who are queer, a disproportionate number of kids who are not faith participants, or at least have a diverse faith participation, who are in foster care systems. And because of the reliance on a lot of very faith-based practice in those systems, even if you weren't experiencing religious trauma, which if you've grown up in the Midwest or other places, you probably have, it can be jarring. Because that is what propels some of those individuals to do the service. That is part of what propels them to be foster parents.
And I think it's a conversation that would be very healthy to ensure that while whatever brings you to the table to provide this level of care and this level of investment and this level of empathy to this young person, that's great. If that's a faith practice, if that is a philosophical practice the way that humanism is, whatever that is, great. I'm a big fan, whatever helps you wanna provide equity, empathy, whatever drives that narrative for you, great.
It is the evangelism component that becomes problematic. This desire or this sense that those who do not share that faith practice, or that specific faith practice, that is the part that I think really does an additional harm. Because if this young person is in a position not of power, 'cause they are oftentimes not choosing where they get to go, they are now latched to a system that is doing its best, often with limited resources, to get this young person into a safe environment. And if that safe environment is also trauma-inducing, it can be problematic.
And the idea that the young person would be able to share that is also challenged, right? If you are a young person who does not feel particularly agentic, since we're gonna go back to that word...
SHAY:
Word of the day.
SHANE:
Word of the day. Word of this year, I think is probably it.
If you are not feeling comfortable expressing that level of control over your opportunities. And it's understandable why. There are too few foster parents. There are a very limited amount of resources in order for these young people. And the other options are foster homes, or in some cases almost confinement systems that are not great. You would do a lot to not be in those spaces.
And young people who are familiar with the system know that you go along to get along. And that is a strategy for these young people until they get old enough to start exercising their own decisions.
Now, it's not to say that the foster system does not listen to them. They do. In fact, young people, at least over the age, and forgive me I may not remember this number, I think it's 12 or 14, oftentimes get to appear on behalf of themselves in court cases and proceedings, to respond to who is providing care, their opinion about that care, whether they seek other care, all that kind of thing.
But that's, for a young person who has dealt with a lot of trauma and a lot of instability, I don't wanna infantilize them. I'm just saying it's hard to look at a system like that and then make demands on that system to say, "I would like this specifically," and have that be a reality. Especially oftentimes with those people in the same room. And that can be hard.
Also, people in the system, there are a lot of faith participants who are a part of the system too, who may not see that as a problem. So those are, it's challenged.
And so I would love humanists to really think about how we approach that conversation and what role humanists can play within that. 'Cause I do think it's worth making sure that we are a part of that conversation.
And even for those who are faith participants who could be introduced to the idea... wow, that sounds like evangelism, and I don't mean it to. But this idea of empathy within that conversation, that at least a multiplicity of faith or philosophical approach, that those be part of the conversation, and maybe even drawing attention that they might be doing harm. Now, I don't know that they would feel that way, but I think religious trauma does account for a number of things. Not even getting to the proportion of kids who are maybe queer-identified or other challenges where that Venn diagram of religious conservatism can have a lot of overlap.
SHAY:
And this is not even theory that you're speaking of, because we literally heard this during one of the meetings of the so-called Religious Liberty Commission, was a foster parent telling their testimony about how they were fostering a queer kid and they didn't wanna respect their pronouns. They didn't wanna respect them as a queer person. Like, they could give two shits. All they cared about was their own sanctity and treating their home and anyone in their household under their own rules.
And so I hadn't even considered that, about what it must be like for these kids who are already going through so much and then to land in a home that's gonna make you attend church every Sunday and hear the same garbage that you grew up with that already destroyed you.
SHANE:
It is. But going along is a form of safety for people. And again, I don't think there isn't a sympathetic ear within the system about it. I think it's that religious institutions, particularly Christian institutions, but not only, have within their charge to serve, and evangelizing is part of that service. And those same systems have recognized and have served that gap.
And I'm deeply conflicted in the sense that if they weren't, who would? And that is when I look at systems leaders, I can't be mad at them. They're not wrong. There are more young people who need care than there are homes that are able to provide them.
But I do think that there are opportunities among queer communities, among humanists, among a variety of communities, to think about what it means to work with youth constructively who are not your biological children. And I think people really wrestle with what that means.
I recognize that people wanna have kids and they're deeply attached to that relationship, and sometimes it doesn't always go well. I think you provide as much mentorship and support and care for all young people to develop to be their best selves. And for those who are able and want to produce a family that way, great.
I think families come in so many different forms, and the healthiest of families have been some of the least traditional forms, simply because they are shaped to the wellbeing of the individuals who are involved. And that, to me, is what we should be advocating for. That if everyone is thriving, then great.
SHAY:
I know it's probably dependent on the location and whatever region you're talking about. But is there a tendency in the foster care system that makes these non-traditional family forms go through extra hoops potentially? Like, is it always gonna be more difficult, or is there more to prove for a queer couple that is wanting to step up and be foster parents, or even a single parent showing up and wanting to be a foster parent?
Is that gonna be significantly harder with the systems that are established today?
SHANE:
That's a really great question, and it's a complicated answer.
I would be doing a disservice here if I did not acknowledge the foster system has had, and I'm sure still has, abuses. So we've heard about foster mills. We've heard about these systems.
So the challenge of working within these systems is the amount of training, which I love. I'm glad I get to learn things. But I also don't, because it's also a lot of time. I have to go and do CPR every couple years. I have to do all these things every couple years, which is, you know, fine. It's good for me as a good citizen and a good neighbor to do these things. Awesome.
At the same time, I'm like, "Ugh, it's so much work. If I just had a kid, I wouldn't have to do any of this." And then you're like, "That explains a lot, doesn't it?"
Wouldn't it be great if birth parents, if people had to go through some of these same hurdles around education, around trauma, around trauma-informed care, around all that. I actually, I'm not saying we should mandate it, but I've dealt with a lot of kids coming out of a lot of homes.
At least Nick Cannon. Just to be, again, just to be a good... it's a complicated thing. 'Cause again, I'm not a parent, so there are definitely some systems and structures in there to affirm and help parents along. I don't know who's using them, but I know they exist.
As far as foster parenting goes, there are a lot of hurdles to the system in general. So to be a foster parent and to go through that process, there is a process to it, right? There's also a check. So it's important to acknowledge that the state sees this as a constructive way to provide childcare, and part of that childcare involves also a stipend. Some kind of stipend and some kind of payment, which is why foster mills existed in the first place, right? So the system has to have checks and balances in order for it to maintain its own ethical practices, and that makes it in many ways have these additional hurdles.
Now, are there additional hurdles, to hear your question correctly, for LGBTQ+ people or single parents? None that I've witnessed. But, you know, again, my licensing happened in Durham and other parts of North Carolina. I love that team. They've been great. They certainly treated everybody equitably.
Is it the same in rural parts of the state? I don't know. I certainly would ask the same question that you asked. If I were to come in as a same-sex couple or as a single person, would I experience a constructive experience? Would I feel like I was supported in taking action in this way to support a young person's path?
So I don't know, but I think it is fair to ask that question on whether that process is itself equitable and supportive. I'll say from my experience, they were nothing but supportive. I think they welcomed... But again, I think that has to do with there being so few people who will opt into this conversation. And we need more.
SHAY:
I can't tell you, I know we're at time. I can't tell you how insightful this has been. Thank you so much. But I wanna give you a chance before I let you go. Depending on when this comes out, you have TED Talks a-plenty. Tell us more about what's going on with you.
SHANE:
Thank you. This has been a great conversation, Shay, and it's such a great opportunity to spend time with you. I appreciate you. And being able to have these conversations... and again, I do welcome if there are other humanists who wanna have these conversations. My partner and I are hardly the landmark of respite foster parenting. We've had good experiences, and we certainly encourage other people to do it. But there are just certainly experts out there who I think can provide other insights. I appreciate everybody listening to my experience and that as at least one point of view about it.
In terms of my own stuff, I'm excited. I have my second TEDx Talk coming out soon, so that's something I'm really excited about.
I do a lot of work as part of my company, as part of our work at A Great Idea. We work with purpose-driven companies and organizations across the country, and we do a lot of work around value systems.
And one thing I was invited to do was go back to my hometown in Central Illinois. To submit, and then you have to get approved and all that kind of stuff. And so I submitted to really talk about, kind of Midwestern nice in a way. But really talking about value systems.
'Cause the general approach people have is "Live your values." And who doesn't love a good little crocheted thing to put on your wall, live, laugh, love, just blah, blah, blah.
SHAY:
That's exactly the thing I thought.
SHANE:
So cute. So adorable. But the reality is, and I talk about this in the talk, the reality is that our values will come into conflict. They come into conflict with each other, and they come into conflict with the world. And there are practices that I use in my brand work that work also for individual practices, and I talk about that a bit in the talk, on how to approach managing that conflict and really coming out the other side in a way that essentially fuels your spark. That feels like a space, and saves your spark in many cases.
'Cause I really feel like in the current moment we're being asked to respond to things where sometimes the answer is pretty blunt and obvious. Sometimes you're like, "That is inhumane. That is cruel. That is prejudice-informed, and I don't wanna do anything with that."
Sometimes it's a little grayer, right? Like, sometimes it's a case where I have really competing senses of self, like I really feel this way about something, and now I'm like, "Ah." Marjorie Taylor Greene, there's a good example. You know, I'm stuck with, what do I do when I have things in my value systems that come into conflict?
And that can cause us a lot of internal agita. It can cause us a lot of sleepless nights. It can cause us a lot more chaos, a lot more tension. For brands and organizations, that can actually have cost, like material cost, because you end up confusing things, or you end up doing things that are contrary to the way that some people may tell your story, and suddenly you're stuck trying to do a lot of damage control in that process.
And we work with a lot of organizations to prevent that. And for individuals, I wanna see people step into their best selves, just like I wanna see organizations and purpose-driven companies step into their best selves. I wanna see a world where transformation happens. But it can only happen if we're clear about what we're asking, and also clear about what these limits feel like and how our priorities line up.
And I spend time in the TED Talk really laying out an approach there that has worked, that makes sense, and that can help in these particular moments determine what are the things that matter the most.
SHAY:
Ugh. Shane. You're so awesome.
Thank you so much. It's great to see you.
SHANE:
Thank you, Shay. We'll talk soon.
SHAY:
What are you listening to right now? What's currently... in your record player? You mean these records? Oh, tell me, tell me, tell me. Yeah. Or these records?
SHANE:
Yeah, I know. Rub it in. This is all I have so far, is just... Christmas...
SHAY:
Oh, those are beautiful. Look at those.
SHANE:
Yes. Which one are you gasping at?
My partner and I were laying in bed the other day, and he is all about Christopher Cross. I mean, that album...
SHAY:
Okay, so here's... okay, side note. If anybody hasn't watched, there's an FX show. I'm blanking on it. The Beauty, I think is what it's called. And it's a horror drama thing. It's a very saturated kind of show. But it has a really interesting monologue about Christopher Cross, 'cause Christopher Cross is the emblematic example of what happened when music video happened.
Because Christopher Cross is a very talented musician, and he is a very generic-looking person. And I don't mean that in a bad way. He is a lovely looking person. He is a human being in all of his beauty, and we're gonna sit here and embrace it. But the lack of manicured, kind of classical beauty made it challenging in an era that suddenly made everything very visual. And in that visual sell, this person who had just won five Grammys, I think, or some astronomical number of Grammys, was probably on the fastest track to making AM radio everything. 'Cause that's really what that album is. It's a gorgeous album.
Career just halted, just stopped. 'Cause they couldn't put him out in public in the same way. He was just a really talented musician with a beautiful voice, and just doing stuff. And people were like, "Yeah, but like, he looks like my dad." Like, there was not a lot of resonance.
And so my partner, who's 10 years younger than me, did not grow up in Christopher Cross' era. And so we were playing a number of the classics. And then for about a week, Sailing was everywhere, just everywhere.
Did you... Sorry, I have to ask. Did you show him the SCTV skit of Rick Moranis doing Ride Like the Wind?
SHANE:
No, but I will look it up. Can you...
SHAY:
You've... Wait, have you seen it?
SHANE:
No, I don't think I've seen it.
SHAY:
Oh my gosh, Shane. You have to see this immediately. As soon as we're done, you gotta look it up.
SHANE:
I will look it up.
SHAY:
It's with Rick Moranis and... Oh, God, I... Is he playing Michael McDonald? So I think he's playing Michael McDonald in it.
You gotta watch it.
SHANE:
Oh, I love it. I love it. I love it. I'm already here for it. I think it's amazing. Do you sing it when you do your wedding... Oh, I wish.
I wish somebody would request Christopher Cross. I mean, well, not, not Christopher Cross will make it. Oh. But like I wish that they would request him too. Oh. Why not? Who's not mashing that up?
[singing] Sailing, take me away... Jump, jump!
See, this is what happens when you leave us on a podcast for too long. We're gonna just start making remixes.
SHAY:
I love it. Oh my gosh.
SHANE:
I'm already a fan of this. I'm already a fan.
Which, by the way, okay, so one of the things that is now on my playlist that I'd never heard about is a DJ named Amerigo, who I'm not familiar with, and I just came to be familiar with their work. And they do mashups, and this is what made me think of it just now. They do mashups, and they have a mashup of Lauryn Hill and Nina Simone that is about an hour long, and it is really brilliant. So I do suggest checking that out, 'cause it is just really brilliantly done. I'm sure without any of their approvals, so totally done on the sides.
But you know what? Music is revolutionary, and that is part of the process. That's where hip hop and a lot of music has had its greatest invention, is in fact in that ripping and shredding of ideas and then bringing them together. And Lauryn Hill mixed with Nina Simone, brilliant. There's also Mos Def and Marvin Gaye. He also does those as a mashup set too. So brilliant.
But I'd suggest probably the thing I'm listening to a lot that I'm addicted to right now is Jorge Drexler, who's an Uruguayan musician.
SHAY:
Ooh.
SHANE:
It's an album called Taraca, and it's all about percussion in Uruguay. And it's the influence of Spanish percussion, so out of Cadiz, and brings a lot of Afro-American influences.
SHAY:
Oh, he did a Tiny Desk!
SHANE:
Oh, he might've. Yeah. He won the Oscar for Motorcycle Diaries for the song from that. I was not very familiar with his work, and I have been spending a lot more time dug into his work. So that's probably a big one.
And I'm very excited about Ezra Collective, who just announced their new album. And it's out in September. I'm a huge fan of them. If you're not familiar with them, they're a Mercury Prize-winning jazz band. Basically I wanna say somewhere eight, nine, ten, eleven members. But merging a lot of African influence. It's a British-based band, and they're taking a lot of Pan-African sounds and bringing those in as well as mixing with a lot of other sounds.
And I really just fell in love with them many years ago. And then their last album, Dance, No One's Watching, is just one of my favorites of that year. And then they have a new one out coming up in September, and the first single just leaked, and I'm already kinda spinning that one.
SHAY:
I love it.
I think I have Dance, No One's Watching. I think I have heard that one, but now I'm gonna have to catch up on the rest.
By the time that this episode airs, we will have launched Pride Month with none other than Cain Culto. I don't...
SHANE:
I love... Yeah, actually BimBamBow is great. Yeah, that's been in my list. Actually, I would love, please connect me with Cain. We would love him for The Power. So we do The Power Beyond Pride podcast of queer change makers from across the country. We've had Dominique Jackson on. We've had great folks on.
And if Cain is listening to this, I would love to have you on, 'cause I'm a big fan. I've loved all the way from KFC Santeria to obviously BimBamBow. So definitely hit me up. Call me. Here's my digits.
SHAY:
Thank you again, Shane. We have definitely gone over time, but I've enjoyed every moment of it.
SHANE:
And I cannot thank you enough, Shay. Again, I know I said it when we started. I know we're over time, but I appreciate you. You're amazing. Thank you for letting me prattle. I hope I didn't prattle on too poorly.
SHAY:
Prattle away.
By the way, it was so cute how you say agita. I've only ever heard it said by Jews, and we always say agita. So hearing it said so properly in Midwestern was very cute.
SHANE:
Thank you. I appreciate that.
I have many friends of the... because I lived in New York and have many friends of the Jewish community, including my college roommate of two and a half years, was Corey from Skokie, which I think is the second most Jewish population after New York.
And yeah, I have so many stories about his mom calling and how much I love Corey. He's now over in California. I love him. And it was so funny 'cause once in a while his mom would call and be like, "Ah, Corey there?" And you're like, "Hi, Ms. Eagle." "Shane, oh my God. I love... Ah, Corey says you're doing so good, but you stayed up too late." And I was like, "I do, Ms. Eagle. It's true. I do stay up too late."
SHAY:
Everyone's Jewish mother is Harvey Fierstein. Like every single one.
SHANE:
It was... I, yeah. And again, Corey is just one of my near and dearest. I certainly love him very much.
AD:
This is Fish Stark, Executive Director of the American Humanist Association. I'm getting married this summer, and we could not be more excited. But weddings can be a lot. On top of dealing with caterers and photographers, it just feels challenging to plan a ceremony that both honors our humanist beliefs and my fiancee's Jewish culture and traditions. There's no script for something like that.
That's why my fiancee and I are getting help from a humanist celebrant, our friend Greg Epstein, who also happened to be the first-ever guest on this podcast. If you're preparing to celebrate your own love story but you're not excited about a traditional religious celebration, you should consider working with a humanist celebrant like Greg.
The Humanist Society can connect you with professional humanist celebrants who are excited to help you and your partner craft a ceremony that reflects your unique story, background, and values. Humanist celebrants are frequently sought out for interfaith, intercultural, and same-sex marriages, but they are available to everyone, and they can legally perform marriages in all 50 states.
If you wanna explore what it means to invite a humanist celebrant into your wedding, visit thehumanistsociety.org. We've got people who can help.