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20:24: I find it interesting that, in the eight years I've been teaching it here at Rice, I don't think I've ever had a class where the majority of people in the class, when I talk about the things that hold them back from power, won't raise their hands and say, "Yeah, at least one of those affects me." And, you know, things like—we call it the just world hypothesis—the idea of like, oh, well, you know, merit exists, and if I do a really good job, I will rise in the organization because people will notice. And we talk about the fact that our research is pretty clear that that's not true. We have years of research on this that says your boss doesn't have any idea what you do, and your boss's boss certainly doesn't. And so this idea of you have to advocate for yourself, even though it doesn't feel great to you.
36:09: What I told my students is, "I'm not here to make you into great leaders. Some of you will be great leaders because you have that natural piece, and I'm going to teach you this, and if you follow and do this information, you'll become a great leader. But I guarantee you, if you just follow what I say, you won't be a bad manager. You won't be a bad leader." And I've had enough bad leaders over the years that my crusade is to get rid of them, to try and, try and teach people so that we don't have them. And I'm hoping that the people who come out of here with Rice MBAs, and even our Rice undergrad degrees, have the understanding of how to be a manager that does the right things.
45:19: I hope that we can maintain doing that because we could provide our undergrads with a tremendous ability to get a great education, and one that they're not going to get in an undergrad program elsewhere, from people who really know what they're talking about and are good at teaching it.
Owl Have You Know is Rice Business’ podcast created to share the experiences of alumni, faculty, students and other members of our business community – real stories of belonging, failing, rebounding and, ultimately, succeeding. During meaningful conversations, we dive deep into how each guest has built success through troubles and triumphs before, during and after they set foot in McNair Hall.
The Owl Have You Know Podcast is a production of the business school at Rice University (Rice Business) and is produced by University FM.
[00:00] Maya Pomroy: Welcome to Owl Have You Know, a podcast from Rice Business. This episode is part of our Up Next series, where faculty, researchers, and alumni weigh in on the trends currently shaping the world of business.
I'm your host, Maya Pomroy. Today, we're sitting down with Jon Miles, assistant clinical professor of organizational behavior at Rice Business, where he also co-advises the Virani Undergraduate School of Business. Welcome to the program, Jon.
[00:30] Jon Miles: All right. Thank you.
[00:31] Maya Pomroy: And congratulations on your newest award. You were just given one of the highest awards from the Virani School, Teacher of the Year. Congratulations.
[00:40] Jon Miles: Yeah, thank you very much. The undergraduates voted on it. That always, for me, makes it feel more special when the students actually chose me, as opposed to it being something where the faculty chose it or something like that. So, it made me very happy.
[00:52] Maya Pomroy: Well, I am not surprised that the students chose you. You are a legend at Rice Business.
[00:58] Jon Miles: Oh, I don't know about that.
[01:00] Maya Pomroy: Well, I do. And what's fascinating to me about your story is that your path to education and teaching is anything but linear.
You started out chasing a quiet life in IT, a computer science degree from Kansas State University, multiple years in the industry, only to discover that a future without human connection was, you know, pretty miserable.
That realization sent you through an MBA program, eventually a Ph.D. in organizational behavior from Michigan State, where you did find the one thing that you've been looking for all along, which is teaching. There's also ownership of a comic book store, kind of, layered in there that we'll get into as well.
[01:46] Jon Miles: Sure.
[01:47] Maya Pomroy: So, since joining Rice Business in 2018, you have definitely built a reputation for classrooms that are anything but passive. Your courses include an undergraduate curriculum on professionalism and ethics that are designed around interaction, shared experience, and the kind of learning that sticks for a lifetime.
And while your heart is in the classroom, your research is incredibly compelling. You have done studies that increasingly are defined by technology and the constant competition for our attention. So, we're going to get to all of that today.
[02:22] Jon Miles: Wonderful.
[02:23] Maya Pomroy: But first and foremost, I want to know, how did you grow up?
[02:30] Jon Miles: So, I grew up, you know, I was in a middle-class, upper-middle-class family. My father's a civil engineer. My mother had a series of jobs, a bookkeeper, a real estate agent, a secretary, all these different things. But growing up in a family with two parents and two kids, my sister is two years younger than I am, and it was an interesting grow-up period.
You know, I, fairly open with my students about my own background, and I tell them about, you know, how I feel and everything like that. My father was not always the best person, but I have great love for the man. It has influenced how I see the world.
But the other thing about it is I grew up in a home where we had everything we needed. Family was very good at providing. We had no problems there. I, you know, went to some fairly good public schools and was very happy with that portion of life, is that I got the education that really helped me get where I needed to go.
And I love the fact that I have my dad and my mom both, because my dad is the classic, he's a civil engineer, he's a math and science guy. He really wanted me to go into engineering. That was what he wanted. But it meant that, for instance, when he was trying to help me do my math homework, he didn't like the way we were doing it, and so he'd teach me this different way to do things or whatever. And so, I got to learn how to do it in two different ways, which meant I had a little more of an understanding of how math worked. But then my mother, you know, she wanted to be a social worker.
And so, in her case, you know, I learned a lot about compassion. I learned a lot about, you know, love. I learned a ton about the idea of, like, she loved writing, she loved, you know, the idea of expressing things in that way. And so, I learned how to write, basically, a lot from her. I learned about what was a good story or not a good story, or a good way to present ideas and a not good way.
And so, I felt like I got a really good, sort of, background that helped me. And it's funny because now I talk to people when I teach, I am using the material or the information that my mom would give me about how to present yourself, and how to talk to people, and how to treat people much more. And so, that's been really nice.
[04:34] Maya Pomroy: Wow, that makes perfect sense now, why this is the path that you're on, because it shaped you from childhood. But you did do what your dad wanted you to do because you started off in IT. So, tell me about that.
[04:49] Jon Miles: Well, and more like the rest of my life, interestingly. It's even a more complicated story than that. So, I started at Kansas State in journalism for all of two weeks. I was wanting to do print journalism. That was what I really enjoyed. And I sat in a large class, the Intro to Journalism class, which is, sort of, the first one you take to get into this process, and this was 1992.
And so, it was at a time when, you know, we were starting to realize that print journalism was moving somewhere else. The internet hadn't really come into its own yet. But one of the things I love about the faculty there is one, the faculty member who taught that class, it's a lecture hall, 400 people in it, and he, on day two of the class, said, "Okay, raise your hand if you're a journalism major." And, you know, a bunch of us raised our hand, probably 200 of the 400.
"All right, how many of you want to do print journalism?" And it was probably 100 of us. And he said, "Well, look around, because when you graduate, there'll be three jobs. Are you one of the top three of the people who have their hands up right now? If you're not, you're not working in journalism, or you're going to have to do something else."
And it really shocked us. I finished out that class, and I finished up my semester with the classes I had chosen. And I went and changed to electrical engineering.
And I was in electrical engineering up through my junior year and then lost basically a year of classes because at that point I realized I don't want to do this anymore. And the reason I went that long was because of my father. I really wanted to make him happy. I really wanted to get an engineering degree. I thought that was going to be, you know, something that would, you know, benefit me greatly. And I was just… kept running into these classes like circuit theory, electromagnetic theory, that were just not what was interesting to me at all about this, and the software classes.
[06:33] Maya Pomroy: Yeah. Sorry. That wouldn't be interesting to me as well.
[06:34] Jon Miles: Yeah. There are many engineers, I'm sure, who are watching this that think it's amazing, and that's why they're engineers. But I am not.
And so, I wanted to do the software side, but I had no desire to be a programmer, and so I didn't know what I was going to do. And I was fighting in this idea, like, "Oh, computer science isn't engineering really, and will my dad care? Will he like..." you know. But interestingly, it was '95 or '96 in that time when this happened, we were starting to realize that software was kind of where things were going.
And when I switched to computer science, he was actually perfectly okay with it. I was much more worried about what he was going to say than what he actually did.
[07:11] Maya Pomroy: Well, I was going to say, how did that conversation go?
[07:14] Jon Miles: Perfectly fine. He's like, "Well, yeah, I think the jobs are about the same. I think the money you're making is probably going to be about the same. The prestige is about the same. So, fine. No big problem."
And so, I switched to computer science. But it was so late that I had all these classes like differential equations, EM theory, and so on that did not qualify for computer science. And I knew I was going to have an extra year anyway. I started doing the, "Okay, every semester I'm going to take one class that is interesting to me."
[07:40] Maya Pomroy: Oh, I love that.
[07:41] Jon Miles: Whether it counts for anything or not, I'm going to take one class that I thought would be fun, right? And I ended up taking classes in history. I took classes in literature, theater, oh, philosophy. I loved, like, philosophy of mind, philosophy of religion. Those classes were amazing, and learned a ton of cool stuff that had nothing to do with computer science, and graduated with 167 credit hours with one major, no extra degrees or anything like this, with a bunch of classes that didn't count for anything, but I really enjoyed and taught me a lot.
And so, it was actually fun for me, but it did mean that I took seven and a half years to graduate with my degree. So, I know that there were times in there that my parents were very concerned about the fact that I was going to stay in college forever. And I came out in the computer science world with an understanding that what I wanted to do was more systems-based side. And so, I was a systems administrator and a database administrator more than a programmer.
[08:42] Maya Pomroy: So, like me, you were a professional student. I can relate to that as well.
[08:47] Jon Miles: Oh, yeah.
[08:47] Maya Pomroy: But it does create this opportunity to really dive into areas that you would have never, if you had just stayed in that straight line and just done those classes, then it would be such a one-dimensional experience.
And I'm sure that the people that you met in, you know, the philosophy classes and in the theater classes and all of those were completely different than anybody else that you'd ever met before or would ever meet in civil engineering, or if you were to just stick with that one major, right?
[09:18] Jon Miles: And I tell my students now, the classes that I lean the most on from my undergrad now are the theater classes I took because it's how do I present to a class and get them enthusiastic and excited about something, even if I'm not necessarily enthusiastic or excited? How can I portray that in a way to get people up and wanting to talk about things, and really wanting to be a part of the class?
And so, I use the theater classes much more than I certainly do my computer science classes.
[09:48] Maya Pomroy: So, after you graduated, when was that moment that you really thought, "You know what? I think that I want to teach"?
[09:57] Jon Miles: Right. Interestingly, it wasn't until I went into my MBA. So, well, it was in computer field, the IT field. I worked a series of jobs, and I ended up in a job for a company called The IDEA Center. And what they do is essentially student ratings of teaching. And so, it was very academic-adjacent in many ways. I would meet with a lot of professors to talk to them about what our systems could do for them, things like that.
And so, I got to be around professors — and professors who were concerned about their ratings of teaching. But I got to see how we rated teaching and what things that the students thought were important, and quite honestly, develop a few tricks on how you, we know that you could actually improve your scores in some way by doing particular behaviors, such as giving the students feedback opportunities and then changes to the course based on their feedback, for instance.
And so, I was really interested in that, but I just, my role was system administrator, database administrator, project manager, and it just wasn't for me. I really wanted to spend more time with people. And so, I went to get my MBA, thinking I was going to be a, you know, I'll be a tech manager. That's what I'll do. I'm good at talking “techie,” and I'm good at talking “manager speak,” and so I'll be the interface between. That was what I thought.
But while I was getting my MBA, I got smart and realized that, "Oh, I'm paying for this myself. That doesn't seem like a really good idea. Let me go see if they've got opportunities for, like, GRA, GTA positions or something so I can offset the costs."
[11:27] Maya Pomroy: What are GRA and GTA positions?
[11:29] Jon Miles: Oh, yeah, graduate research assistant or graduate teaching assistant. And so, as I'm getting my master's, I'm essentially going in there to say, "Hey, you know, can I teach a class or help you with research projects or something like that and be on the payroll?" Which was nice, if you can do it.
What I ended up hearing is that in the business school, they don't have that. They generally teach with the professors teaching, and the graduate students, the GRAs, are all either Ph.D. students… At Kansas State, they don't have a Ph.D. program, so instead of Ph.D. students, they're often undergrads who are interested in going into that field. And so, their MBAs weren't really used in that way.
But they said the stats department needed somebody, and they have a...
[12:07] Maya Pomroy: Great. Here I am.
[12:09] Jon Miles: Yeah. They have a BUS stats class for the undergrads, and they always had more sections of it than they had Ph.D. stats students to teach it. And I had A's in my stats class, both in my undergrad and my master's. And so, I was like, "Okay, well, let me go see."
And got hired to do that, got given very little prep for how to deal with the classroom.
[12:29] Maya Pomroy: How many students were in your first class?
[12:30] Jon Miles: 40, Generally, it was a pretty steady state at 40 because the classes would fill up, and that's, kind of, the maximum they wanted for that class. And so, they put us in rooms where there were 40. And yeah, it was interesting because I'm teaching stats, so the students come in scared to death.
[12:44] Maya Pomroy: Yes, I was scared to death when I had to take stats three separate times for three separate degrees.
[12:49] Jon Miles: Yeah, exactly. Nobody really wanted to take stats, and they all were worried that it was going to be really hard. And so, I set myself on this plan of, "Let me try to break this down to the essential elements and get them through it." And it meant that I'd had them doing some things that were basically like I would give them these worksheets that were basically step by step, "How do you do a correlation between two groups of numbers by hand?" And then, "Okay, now let's look at how we would do this in MATLAB," and, you know, that kind of thing.
And so, we went through this process, and I feel like I had that moment that most professors have where a student gets it, and you can actually see on their face the light bulb go on, where they're like, "Oh, if I do it this way, it actually works."
And that was absolutely addicting. Most teachers will tell you that they're waiting for that moment, and when that happens, it's the best. But I also had the other best experience about being a professor, which was I helped a student with their resume and with interviewing, and they got a job.
And so, I had this student come back and go, "I got a job, and it's because of you." And I'm like, "No, it's because of you, but I was able to help you with the process so that you could do it." And that's also just addictive.
And so, I went to talk to my favorite instructor, who happened to be teaching the organizational behavior class in my MBA, and I said, "I like your class the best. I think you're my favorite instructor." It was a guy named Dr. Bill Turnley. And I told Bill Turnley, "I would really like to do what you do. How do I do this?"
And he walked me through the process of going to get a Ph.D., and he had to reveal to me the harsh truth, which was, "Well, you can be a college professor, but it means a five-year commitment to a Ph.D. program because that's what it takes."
And so, I chose to do that because it was such a strong pull for me at that point. This is the career I want. I think in the back of my mind, I was also, you know, I've talked to my students about this as well. I think that part of it was I wanted to show my family, "Look how smart I am. Look that I can do this thing. It'll be prestigious," et cetera, et cetera, and, sort of, prove my intellectual ability in some ways. And so, it also seemed like a challenge that I could take on.
[15:02] Maya Pomroy: Yeah. So, the organizational behavior part, that is something that right now, in this day and age, is really interesting to watch just because there's so many different variables.
[15:15] Jon Miles: Oh, yeah.
[15:15] Maya Pomroy: Statistical variables, that, sort of, play into, you know, the way that people behave, the organizations that are successful, the ones that fail, and the power and the influence part as well of, you know, who's leading it and if they give the people that they work with, the agency, right, to be able to make those sorts of decisions.
But, you know, one of the things that you teach, and I took this class from you, and it was one of my favorites, is about power and influence.
[15:45] Jon Miles: Oh, nice.
[15:46] Maya Pomroy: And so, tell me about that class and why you feel that it's really a requirement for anybody that wants to understand organizational behavior.
[15:56] Jon Miles: Right. First of all, I have to give credit to Jeffrey Pfeffer at Stanford, who is the, sort of, old guard Paths to Power class. He's been teaching at the MBA program at Stanford for decades. It is the classic, you know, version of this.
And then over years I've, sort of, made it more my own or more, sort of, tailored to the students I have. But the idea of the class was I need you to understand why you've been up until now in your career, if you're really good at your job, you've been getting promotions and raises and things have been moving for you, and now suddenly you're finding this problem where people are getting promoted above you that you think you're a better worker than. Why is that happening?
And it's because you're not playing the game. You're not doing the things that are necessary to actually show people in the business who you are. So, the managing up portion was a big part of it, but the other reason I wanted to do it was the managing down portion. And that is, when you're managing people, how do you get it to where they will be the kind of team that will, you know, run through a brick wall for you, that really want to work for you because they like your leadership?
And that's an area of power that I don't think most people think about off the bat, but it is really important. And so, that's why in the class we look at two different books. We look at Pfeffer's book, which is more Machiavellian. It's more about, sort of, how do I impress the people above me? How do I, you know, rise in the organization? How do I move forward?
And then we look at Dr. Keltner's book out of Cal. His idea is, "How do I gain power in an environment that has no hierarchy at all?" And it applies very well to how I deal with subordinates, how I deal with my peers in a way that I can show power by essentially showing that I have the best intentions and that I am in, I'm actually doing things to make things better for everyone. He calls it the greater good.
And so, that's the idea I like, is that power has multiple dimensions, and I want students to come out of it with a power style that uses both.
[17:56] Maya Pomroy: So, what do you think is the biggest misconception people have about what it means to be influential in work?
[18:02] Jon Miles: So, the hardest part I have with the class… Not the hardest part, but the thing that I think actually gives me the most benefit from a student standpoint, what the students love, is we start the class off with a, "You are holding yourself back from this." And we talk pretty frankly about, "Do you feel like it is icky to try and influence people? Do you feel like it's icky to..." And I talk about this, like, "to manipulate people?"
[18:29] Maya Pomroy: I'm sure you do. Is that the word you use?
[18:32] Jon Miles: Yes, I use that to see, you know, to start this off. And I say, "I've been manipulating you since the first day you stepped into this class because I want you to be excited about this subject. I want you to..." You know, that doesn't mean that my manipulation is bad, but I'm guessing that when I call it manipulation, you have a little bit of a negative connotation.
[18:49] Maya Pomroy: A negative connotation. Yeah.
[18:52] Jon Miles: And so, I have to, kind of, walk them through this, and we talk about things like, "Would you tell your CEO if you had an opportunity, you're, you know, in an elevator together or something, would you tell your CEO about something that you'd done so that your CEO knows something about what you've accomplished?"
And a lot of people are like, "No, I wouldn’t, I'd feel so awful doing that." And it's like, well, what's the consequences of this? And we talk about, “How can you do this?” But the idea is you are probably not doing the things you need to do to gain power, and you're probably doing it because you feel there's a morality to it or something like that. But it's not actually immoral, you know?
[19:29] Maya Pomroy: Well, there's so many talented people that struggle to advocate for themselves, right?
[19:35] Jon Miles: Yeah.
[19:35] Maya Pomroy: Where you don't want to feel icky, and you don't want to feel like you're trying to, you know, push your own agenda.
[19:42] Jon Miles: Exactly. And one of the things I think is interesting about that is I've taught this class so many times now. And I find it interesting that in the eight years I've been teaching it here at Rice, I don't think I've ever had a class that wasn't the majority of people in the class, when I talk about the things that hold them back from power, will raise their hands and say, "Yeah, at least one of those affects me."
And, you know, things like, we call it the “Just-World Hypothesis,” the idea of like, "Oh, well, you know, merit exists, and if I do a really good job, I will rise in the organization because people will notice." And we talk about the fact that our research is pretty clear that that's not true. We have years of research on this that says your boss doesn't have any idea what you do, and your boss's boss certainly doesn't.
And so, this idea of you have to advocate for yourself even though it doesn't feel great to you. And then we talk about, “How can you do this in a way that isn't against your principles?”
And interestingly, what I find is most people stop short of their principles. So, it's not that they're worried about this being immoral. It's that this feels gross because it's getting close to my line that I won't want to do something. But it's not there yet. You know, I'm not thinking that this is bad. Like me, talking about what I've done on a project isn't bad. I'm not saying that the other people didn't do anything or anything else, and it… But it feels icky. So, how do we get to a point where you can do this and feel uncomfortable but be willing to deal with the discomfort?
[21:07] Maya Pomroy: So, how do you do that?
[21:10] Jon Miles: Well, you've got to take the class. You’ve taken the class! You and Brian both?
[21:13] Maya Pomroy: I did take the class, and I do know, and I still have all my notes.
[21:17] Jon Miles: But no, but I will say that one of the things that's most important is actually understanding where your lines are and being willing to push yourself to the line. Being willing to say, "I'm not going to be dishonest." Okay, great. You're not going to be dishonest. Great. But that doesn't mean I can't tell, you know, someone, "Hey, on the last project, I did this," because it's true. I'm not being dishonest, but that feels icky.
Okay. Well, if that feels icky, what can you do that will allow you to push that far? Maybe it's, "Hey, this person on the team did this, and this person on the team did this, and then I did this." Great.
[21:51] Maya Pomroy: Right. Make yourself last.
[21:54] Jon Miles: Yeah. But the idea there is then at least you're willing to make that statement so that you're getting across your advocation for yourself.
And then, okay, now that we've got that, now we can talk about if that felt less icky, but you're willing to do it, that's way better than not saying it in the first place.
[22:12] Maya Pomroy: Right. Which sort of parlays back into ethics, which is another class that you teach.
[22:18] Jon Miles: Yeah.
[22:19] Maya Pomroy: So, could you tell me about the professionalism and ethics class and why you feel that it is just so, you know, vital, especially in today's world?
[22:30] Jon Miles: Right. And here at Rice, interestingly, I'm now not teaching this class because I have too many other ones on the undergrad side that I'm doing. But we do still teach for every cohort that's coming through, you take what's called a CSR and Ethics class.
And what the class is designed around is this idea, or when I teach it anyway, the class is designed around this idea that I can't change your moral framework. You're too old now. You know, if I got you at age six, maybe I could make some work on building a moral framework that will work for you. But at this point, you've built it already.
But I can tell you what factors will make you break your own moral framework. So, I can walk you through, "Hey, if you feel like everybody else is doing it, you will be more likely to do something that is against your own moral framework because you think, 'Well, everyone else is doing it, so it's okay,' right?"
The other thing you'll see is things like conflict of interest certainly is one of those, but there's some interesting ones that we don't think about. Like, if I feel like this is benefiting others, I'm often willing to cut corners and do unethical things and feel okay about it because I'm doing it for the right reasons, except that you're still being unethical.
[23:41] Maya Pomroy: Right.
[23:41] Jon Miles: And you're still breaking your own ethical framework. You wouldn't do this in another situation because it's against your ethics, but now you're willing to do it.
And what I'm hoping to do, and I looked into it, and our research was pretty clear that ethics classes, especially in the MBA, don't have much of an effect because we used to teach them as like, "Here's deontological ethics, here's utilitarian ethics," that kind of thing. And unfortunately, you know, all those people at Enron had MBAs and had gone through an ethics class, and yet still did these things.
And so, what I was hoping to do, and I have no idea if it worked better. I did get some feedback from students that said it, you know, they thought about it while they were in their career, and it kind of helped them out in some ways. But it's the idea that instead of us talking to you about, “Here's what's ethical and not ethical,” let's talk about, "Hey, when you're making a decision, and you're tempted to do something unethical, I want you to know why, why you're tempted.” And it's not because this is the right decision. It's because of these other factors.
Like, "Hey, you have this framework. Now, because you have this framework, I don't want you to break this framework. I want you to live with the morals that you've decided are proper for you, and I know that you'll do it if I put you in these situations. And so, let's talk about how we don't put ourselves in these situations, or if we do, we understand the situation we're in and the effect it'll have on my behavior."
[25:05] Maya Pomroy: So, now let's talk about AI.
[25:06] Jon Miles: Yes.
[25:07] Maya Pomroy: Because AI just, sort of, just, like, throws all that out the window, and it is dominating conversations right now, and there's AI-related layoffs and actual business impacts that companies are seeing. So, tell me your thoughts about AI and the benefits, and also, you know, the pitfalls, and what we really need to be focused on. Because, you know, you can't put the genie back in the bottle.
[25:34] Jon Miles: Yeah. So, this is actually following a very predictable pattern. It's the predictable pattern we saw when virtual teams became popular, and this was before COVID, when virtual teams became popular with companies, especially because they were offshoring something or whatever. What we find is companies try to reap the benefits of the technology before they actually see results from that technology.
And so, for AI, for instance, there have been a couple of different research reports that have come out that something like 95% of companies have seen zero ROI increase due to AI at this point. What they're using AI for isn't actually producing better profits for them, and the fact that they're firing people doesn't actually help them with the bottom line or whatever.
What I'm guessing will happen, as a prediction based on what has happened with other technological advances in the workplace, is they will eventually realize that AI on its own isn't the competitive advantage it's supposed to be. It's employees who understand how to use AI to do more of what they're doing that are a competitive advantage.
And so, firing employees often isn't the right track. What instead you should be doing is training your employees in AI, making sure they understand it, finding the ones that are really good at using AI to improve their normal capabilities, and then making sure that those are the ones that you're, sort of, working with and trying to use the most.
And unfortunately, what we're seeing is a lot of companies who think, "Oh, because AI makes it possible for one person to do three people's job, that means I can fire two people." And that's really not true at this point. The AI won't make that up. And we have some examples of where it's gone ugly, and I'm waiting. There will be a terrible scandal coming up, I guarantee it.
Some company is going to do something with AI that will blow up in their face because they don't have enough people to follow up on what AI is doing, and they won't follow up. And what will happen is AI will do something wrong, and it will be wrong enough that it will actually affect the company's bottom line in a terrible way.
And that's when companies will start to realize that we actually have to have enough people to ride herd on the AI to make sure it's doing what it wants. And we've got some examples now that are impressive in the law field. AI is, kind of, built for contracts, for instance, and for legal opinions. A lot of them are formula-based, and AI understands formulas very well, or the large language models we have understand formulas very well.
And so, what ends up happening is we have these lawyers who are getting, you know, put before the bar because they use AI to create, you know, a docket or a brief or something like that. And then what will happen is they don't go through it, and they realize that it's actually citing cases that don't exist. There is a rash of lawyers who are going to lose their certification. They're going to lose their bar qualifications because of this, because they put out a brief that was obviously AI. But because it's got fake things in it, that is an integrity breach based on what they're supposed to do, and you can lose your license for that.
And so, there are going to be lawyers who can never practice again because they weren't following up on the AI they were using.
[28:55] Maya Pomroy: So, do you think that it's just going to take that kind of systemic failure for people to, sort of, take a step back and say, "Maybe this isn't the best use of this technology"?
[29:08] Jon Miles: I can see two different scenarios that could work. So, one of them is there will be a big systemic failure, and that will result in a lot of companies rethinking what they're doing. And I think that's likely to happen. The other that could be, and that's a more optimistic result, is some company will figure out how to use AI properly and will start really outperforming their competitors, and then we'll start to see how they did it, and, you know, the inevitable several years later, the rest of the industry will copy them.
And generally, what we see is the best way to use AI is to have people who are good at it who work through it. I mean, and we have people who are consulting on AI and showing companies how to do it the right way. We have, you know, some people here from Rice that are working for those firms, and they are at least the vanguard of that.
And I'm hoping that that's what happens instead of the, you know, systemic failure that I'm expecting. But I'm guessing one company's going to take it in the teeth, and when that happens, then we'll see other companies step up.
[30:09] Maya Pomroy: So, for all of your students, the baby MBAs and the baby Viranis, and then you got, like, the old people like me, when students leave your classroom, you know, what do you hope stays with them five, 10, 15, 20 years down the line?
[30:25] Jon Miles: So, I tell my students this, and I, you know, I don't know if this bothers them or not, but I tell my students that what I want more than anything is I want them to be decent managers. And I say that because we have a lot of information on when we, you know, teach leadership and studying leadership, and that it's basically 50/50.
So, 50% of what you're accomplishing as a leader is something I can train you in and make you better at it, and it's mainly things about structure and how to set this and how to treat your employees and things like that. And 50% comes from you, your charisma, your natural leadership ability, whatever you want to call it.
And so, what I told my students is, "I'm not here to make you into great leaders. Some of you will be great leaders because you have that natural piece, and I'm going to teach you this, and if you follow and do this information, you'll become a great leader. But I guarantee you, if you just follow what I say, you won't be a bad manager. You won't be a bad leader."
And I've had enough bad leaders over the years that my crusade is to get rid of them, to try and, try and teach people so that we don't have them. And I'm hoping that the people who come out of here with Rice MBAs, and even our Rice undergrad degrees, have the understanding of how to be a manager that does the right things. If they just follow what I talk about in class, they're going to be so much better, and it's going to benefit their careers. So, that's one of the things I'm looking for.
And then the second piece I'm looking for is I want them to understand that their workers are people, which I know that sounds strange, but it's amazing, you know, when I ask questions in class, how often they ignore the idea that each of these people have their own goals, their own values, their own beliefs, their own things they're trying to figure out.
And so, what ends up happening is these people are stuck. These people that they're trying to lead, they're basically being forced to do something rather than asked to do something, rather than led to do something, and that causes issues.
[32:18] Maya Pomroy: Let's go back to some things that would surprise your students about you and, you know, sort of, your leadership style and things that you've done in the past. So, let's talk about your comic book store.
[32:30] Jon Miles: Yeah.
[32:30] Maya Pomroy: Because that was, sort of, in between. What made you want to go be an entrepreneur and start a new business? Because you've definitely got that expertise as well, and you're teaching, you know, entrepreneurs.
[32:42] Jon Miles: You know, I always think this is weird because I was a comic bookstore employee while I was in college, in my undergrad. I wasn't a comic book person, but I was a role-playing games, tabletop games, card games person. I played all these different things.
I was your classic nerd. That is absolutely true. And I worked at a comic book shop there in Manhattan, Kansas, for many years that also had all these games, and I really loved it. I met some of my lifelong friends there, but I actually spent a lot of time there. I really loved the fact that we provided this space for people like me to come and do these things. And you build, kind of, this family of people who are all interested in the same kind of games and that sort of thing.
And what ended up happening was they had to close, and it was after I had left and then come back to Manhattan, Kansas. I was working full-time and actually had signed up for the MBA program, a professional MBA, an evening MBA program at Kansas State. And while I was doing that, my friend, one of my business partners that I worked with on this, who had worked with other comic book stores in the past, he came to me, and we talked about it, and he said basically, "We need to have a comic book store in this town. We need a place like this available for people."
This one's closing. There was one other in town that we didn't particularly like. We didn't like the mood and the feel of it, and so we're like, "Maybe we should do it. We should just start one."
Now, I will say I dropped out of my MBA. I took one class and then dropped out basically because I was like, "Okay, I need to concentrate on this business." And then we proceeded to make every mistake you can possibly make as retail. We overdid our inventory. We were grossly undercapitalized. I think we started with something like $20,000 for a retail store. We made all the mistakes on our triple net leases, where we messed things up on there.
[34:38] Maya Pomroy: Those are great, aren't they?
[34:41] Jon Miles: Oh, yeah. And we did everything wrong you can do. But, but I'm confident and happy of the fact that we never made the same mistake twice. And so, we learned a lot from this. I was a part of it for seven years. Then I left.
But I built this huge group of friends that I still interact with, that I still love. Every time I go back to Manhattan, Kansas, I meet these people I haven't talked to in a couple of years, and we hang out, and everything's great again. I built a tremendous understanding of retail business, specifically as it's related to things like the person side of this. How do I get people excited about things?
And I, you know, I joke about this, but it's absolutely true. In the movie High Fidelity, it's a record store, and this owner of the record store comes up and talks to one of his employees and says, "I will now sell five copies of this record." And then he puts it on a turntable and plays it through the whole store, and you hear it playing, you see people, kind of, jiving to it, and someone will come over and go, "Hey, what's that?" And he says, "Oh, it's this record here, and, you know, it's fantastic. I recommend it greatly." And they'll buy it, and, like, he sells five copies of it.
I would do the exact same thing with board games. I'd have 20 people in the store, and I'd say, "Hey, I got a board game that is going to take us 20 minutes to play, and it needs five players. Five of you want to come play this board game just so you can try it out?" And they'd come play it, and they'd have a great time, and three or four people would stand around watching us play, and they'd have a great time. And then we'd sell five copies.
And so, being able to understand how to grasp and build enthusiasm and get people excited about something and get them to then buy was a huge deal for me, and learning that was really important. But when I decided to go back to my MBA, I would run the store during the days, and then when it was time for me to do my MBA classes, which was around 3:00 p.m. most evenings, I would go into campus and do my MBA. And what ended up happening there was I got to see in the MBA, "Oh, that's what we did wrong." We'd learn all these things. You go to accounting class, and they're like, "You need to do this." Oh, that's where we messed up.
And so, it was actually interesting. I got to learn all the lessons again in the MBA and learn why everything that we'd done hadn't worked. And so, I highly recommend the idea of starting this.
I mean, I tell people, you know, I've never had children, but I know exactly what it's like to have a child because when you start a business, every minute of every day that I wasn't at my full-time job, which I was also working while we started the business, was spent either in the store or working on something for the store or thinking about the store or trying to figure out what we were going to do with the store.
And so, it was like, because we were so undercapitalized, we did it out of the sweat of our backs, and we did it out of, like, as much ingenuity as we could throw into it. And so, I spent all of my time there. And it was fun to build this, but boy, it was tough. So, I learned a lot.
[37:28] Maya Pomroy: Yeah. No, I had an educational toy and bookstore, and I was very naive. I'd never even had a worked in a retail store in my life, and then I proceeded to have a, had a two-year-old and had another baby in the middle of it during fourth quarter, which is when you make all your money. So, that's the rub, is that you don't know what it is that you don't know unless you have that experience.
So, final thoughts. What do you hope for the future of Rice Business and the growth, you know, of the Virani School, and where you want Rice Business to go, and what part do you want to play, in addition to what you have already done, to make this school so successful?
[38:04] Jon Miles: Well, I am really interested in growing the undergrad program because I think it's really great. One of the things I tell my students is they're lucky, and I don't know how long this will be true, but what I would want from us as we move forward is that we maintain what we're doing now, which is the classes we are teaching in the undergrad program are identical in many ways to the classes we teach in the MBA program and are taught by the same instructor that teaches at the MBA level.
And what that means is when you take investments from Kevin Crotty at the undergrad level, that's the same class he teaches at the MBA level using the same materials, and he's the one that teaches it. And there aren't many programs out there that that's true. Most of them, they're very separate, that you get the young professors teaching the undergrad classes, and then the older professors will teach an MBA class, and the ones who've been around a while, and it's not the same class, and it's not the same way they're teaching it.
And I love that we have built this program in that way, and I hope that we can maintain doing that because we could provide our undergrads with a tremendous ability to get a great education and one that they're not going to get an undergrad program elsewhere from people who really know what they're talking about and are good at teaching it.
[39:19] Maya Pomroy: Yeah.
[39:19] Jon Miles: I am excited about the new building, and I'd love to see, kind of, what it will help us do from a standpoint of building community. I'm super excited about the fact that the undergrads and the grad students will mix in the new building in many places.
And so, the servery we'll have down there, where there's a coffee shop, Audrey's, and all the different food, it's for everybody. And we're hoping that they'll, sort of, cross-pollinate, and so that they'll talk to each other.
And so, what I want from our program is for us to basically build an understanding that this is Rice Business. And yes, you could be in the Virani School on the undergrad side or the Jones School on the graduate side, but I'm hoping that over the years, what will happen is they will start talking to each other. And if we start seeing that, that'll be tremendous because I think that there's a lot that they can share with each other that will help.
And I think the new building will really generate that environment where we can do that. And so, you know, as someone who understands social identity processes and everything else, it's going to be requiring us to do some work on our side to make it happen because, naturally, you're going to hang with your people and not hang with other people. But if we can work a little bit to make that happen, I think that is the greatest thing I could see coming out of this new undergrad program, is having an undergrad program that actually interacts with the MBAs. No place I've ever been has that been true, and I'd love to see it true here.
[40:41] Maya Pomroy: Well, you know what? If anybody can do it and the first to do it, it will be Rice Business, and you've got all the right brilliant minds all right there together.
It has been a pleasure to talk with you, Professor Miles, and thank you for taking time out of your day. And again, congrats on your award.
[40:58] Jon Miles: Thank you very much.
[40:59] Maya Pomroy: Very well deserved, and we need to catch back up, you know, in a year or so and say, "Okay, so what's happening now?"
[41:06] Jon Miles: No, absolutely. This has been wonderful. Thank you for having me up here. It was great talking to you, Maya. It's always good to see you again, so anytime you want to chat, just reach out.
[41:18] Maya Pomroy: Thanks for listening. This has been Owl Have You Know, a production of Rice Business. You can find more information about our guests, hosts, and announcements on our website, business.rice.edu. Please subscribe and leave a rating wherever you find your favorite podcasts. We'd love to hear what you think. The hosts of Owl Have You Know are myself, Maya Pomroy, and Brian Jackson.