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More to the Story with Dr. Andy Miller III is a new podcast exploring theology in the orthodox Wesleyan tradition. Hear engaging interviews and musings from Dr. Miller each week.
Transcript
Welcome to the more. It is story. Podcast I am so glad that you all have come along, and I have one of my favorite guests coming on one of the people I love to talk to both. I don't know if I've had a 4 time Guest yet, but he's he's a 4 time guest. I'm gonna introduce and introduce him to you to I'm gonna start over here.
david clarke: Right?
Andy Miller III: 3, 2. Welcome to the more to story. Podcast. I am so glad that you have come along. This is gonna be a great show. It might be my first 4 time Guest. I don't know. We'll see, and I'm I love having him on every time I have him on.
Andy Miller III: I have somebody reach out to me who this message has been, exactly what they needed here. So that's why I keep on by them. I'm so glad he keeps coming back. But I'm gonna introduce him to you in just a second kind of wanna make sure you know this podcast is brought to you by Wesley Biblical Seminary, where we are developing trusted leaders for faithful churches. If you are a faithful church and you're looking for a pastor, we encourage you to come and post your jobs with us.
Andy Miller III: We would love to try and think about how you. We could serve you. We have almost 600 students, and that is a 400% increase over the last 5 years here at Wesley Biblical Seminary. So we are rolling, and we have a beautiful opportunity to serve churches particularly. There's many churches in the evangelical Wesleyan tradition, and at this moment, where the global methods churches emerging, it's been a beautiful opportunity for us
Andy Miller III: to serve the Golden Methods Church. But we're not limited into denominations. We would love to serve anybody who is wanting to be trained at a school that's faithful to faith once for all delivered to the saints. So check us out at Wbs, Edu. Secondly, Wpo. Development. They're a great group that comes alongside churches, schools, academic institutions, and helps them plan and actualize capital campaigns. And they've done that successfully from a
Andy Miller III: 250 organizations around the country. And if you're look, if you're kind of like, not sure organization like how you're gonna take steps forward. I highly recommend you check out Wpo development and their team. Keith Waters is the CEO there? And he says, if you don't have a plan, any path will get you there, and that's certainly true. So there's that also several things for Andy Miller Thirdcom that are available. That's Andy Miller. iii.com.
Andy Miller III: I have 5 steps to deeper teaching and preaching a 45 min teaching and a tool that you can use to help you study Scripture in a more in depth way, with the aim of serving your congregations or your classes better. In addition to classes, there are 2 courses available on my website.
Andy Miller III: one on the afterlife and one on Jude. I'd love for you. Check that out. In addition, I have a few books. I have a recent book that's come out on Jude called Contender, so you can find out all about that stuff at Andy Miller, the third.com. Okay, I'm gonna welcome in to the show. My friend.
Andy Miller III: clinical psychologist, author and tick tock star, doctor David E. Clark, David, welcome to the podcast
david clarke: great to be here. Now, I'm the Tik tok guy. So we only have, like 30 s to talk.
david clarke: Boy, it is amazing, like I, you are exploding online with this ability to connect to. Who would have thought it just took a took about a couple of decades of your practice before time came for tick, Tock to come along where you could just take off.
david clarke: I know God knows what he's doing. We never anticipated this. I was never gonna do this, but God knows what he's doing. He's changed my practice. And then our ministry standardized ministry completely.
david clarke: and we're reaching so many people, especially ladies, in these abusive relationships. It and is using technology to do it is just what Jesus would do, of course, absolutely. What would Jesus do? He? Now tell me a a just a little bit about your your career. What's happening at this? I mean, you're telling me before we we came on here before start recording that you've almost stopped your in person practice. Say, it's
david clarke: gone primarily online. Is that right? Yes.
david clarke: through the video. You know the Tiktok, the Youtube, the podcast, Instagram, I mean, you, Facebook is is kind of exploded to and do these live streams. And so I phased out of the in person ongoing therapy, which I did for 35 years, and God's moved us. I've got one guy that I'm seeing one loan in person client. I have to actually put jeans on to see him which bothers me. Anyway, I wear my shorts.
david clarke: And now it's all phone. It's all phone coaching
david clarke: and giving, giving people resources and encouragement. What the Bible says about abuse. And you can leave. And God wants you and your kids to be safe. It's just a whole new arena that's just incredible, and we're loving it. I love it. And you've had books published by major publishers, moody folks in the family. I think I could list several of them, but you even made a pivot now to self publishing. Why is that?
david clarke: Oh, man! There are a number of reasons
david clarke: number one, the the Christian publisher. It takes so long to get a book out. If I sold one today with a proposal, it'd be a year year and a half before the book would even come out. They put you through all kinds of you know, editing processes which I've I've grown to hate because I've written that, and I like that. It's fine, and course they it. It doesn't. It's a money issue, but they they don't pay you much.
david clarke: and you get a little bit of promotion 2 or 3 months, and how that works, Andy, and then do. They're done with you. So you continue to promote their book and your book, and they make money, and you don't. So
david clarke: we don't need that anymore. Praise God, these self publish books. We're selling them, or where we can make them affordable. We make money. Publishers are just out in the goal. No interesting. So so where do people go to get your books in in these resources.
Andy Miller III: Just the website. Everything's at the website. David E. Clark, Phd. Phd. Com. Everything is there. I'm worried about you. I'm worried about you right now, because I just heard II don't know what's happening. And you might need to read some of your own books, but
david clarke: heard you call your wife the blonde for decades. But you've just called her Sandy 2 or 3 times. Is everything okay, Doctor Clark? Oh, my goodness.
Andy Miller III: she's the wonderful blonde. Yeah, I'm I'm getting. I'm calling her her name more these days. I guess that made you stand out to me. Is this like kind of like the fun thing that you talked about. So people can go back and check out some of the things you've done in past. Okay, well, there is a new book that's come out. And I'm excited about it, not because I need it. Okay, I just wanna make that clear. Okay, but
Andy Miller III: you know, I'm so I know. And in in my own ministry and serving congregations this is an issue that people are working through on a regular basis. So here's the title, stop feeling guilty for your divorce. Beat Satan, beat shame, and live in God's grace and freedom. So there's something behind this Dr. Clark that you have in mind, as you're saying, like, there's these feelings that people have in that's kind of your business
Andy Miller III: deal with people feeling. But why? Why is it that we need to tackle this problem of people sensing and feeling guilt regarding divorce?
david clarke: Well, Andy? So many good hearted Christian women especially, and some men, but mostly women. In my experience they they just played themselves with guilt. They're good, they wanna do it God's way. They're very sensitive that they did their best in their marriage if they're married to a person that's horrible. Okay, even if they have a Biblical reason when they they don't. The last thing they wanted to divorce, but when they make that decision, or somebody divorces them, they have a way of thinking wasn't me. I must have done something wrong.
david clarke: and so they continue to just plague themselves with guilt. So I had, client after client just stuck in this horrible, really not even guilt. It goes into shame. That's what Satan wants shame, and Satan wants that for a lifetime never to go away.
david clarke: And then, if that's every one of your relationships, and God is is saying in the Bible. I don't want that, but you know what I need to write. I would write a book on this. We made it just an ebook as more folks are buying ebooks these days. It's laid out, and I think there's a real need for. And it's it's God is blessed. And it's helping me
Andy Miller III: well, and I love it with your books. They're also kind of like a manual, like emergency manual, so to speak, like you come in. And you have these difficult situations, not the common thing people are writing about, but really and and it's a little longer than your more recent books as well. So what you have in it is like this, step by step process that people can work through. And you mentioned already. And I love. I love this, and this might not have happened if you would have published with a a bigger publisher. All throughout the book
david clarke: you lower you. Ha! You have Satan's Satan mentioned, but he's in lower case. Oh, yeah. And I had to correct that, as it were, typing it. I had to correct it every time. Okay, I'm not going to give Satan a capital S. I'm not going to do it
Andy Miller III: a any, and that this is, I think, theologically, this is one of the challenges that we have is that that it seems to be. This is what
david clarke: Satan is attacking. Why? Why is it that he wants to attack marriages. Doctor Clark. Oh, he hates marriage like nothing else. Marriage is a very picture, as you know, a Christ relationship with the Church. Oh, it's God's plan for the family.
david clarke: and so he hates that. And so he he! He knows if he gonna if he can break a marriage up, cause a problem, or even if a marriage has to break up, and there's Biblical reasons, and that happens, abuse whatever that he he's not done with you, he's never done with you now he can use the aftermath of divorce, and how difficult it is, and the traumas he just inhabits those and continues to wreak havoc when it's all over
david clarke: and God is saying, I want. I want you to get a reset. So Satan never stops trying. Of course Satan wants to now infect and cause your ongoing shame and guilt to ruin your next marriage, if you don't mind, and that's exactly what can happen if you don't clean it out of your system.
Andy Miller III: Yeah. So you and you have 4 steps for destroying shame through this book like you're working through. So so why don't you walk through those with us like, what is it that we need to do? And and some of these could be applied in other ways to other ways that we experience shame, but particularly as it relates to divorce.
david clarke: Here's here's the outline. It's it's first of all we start as we always should start with what the Bible says, Yeah, I've got more Scripture, as you know, Andy, because you read it in this book and in any book I've ever written. Maybe in all my books combined out that way as I was doing it. Because I thought, I'm gonna really these are Christian people. That's my audience. And I'm gonna let them know that God's words speak.
david clarke: Who cares what Dave Clark says? I have a way of presenting it, like we all do, but new to Andy, but I want God to speak very clearly. So what does the Bible say about marriage, about divorce, about remarriage? Because people wonder about that, and about his his grace and forgiveness, and and the reset. So all that I go into great detail on with a lot of Scripture because I could just give my opinion. But who cares? I mean? God has made it very clear
david clarke: course. Every story in the Bible is that of of sin and restoration and forgiveness and new life. Yes, what hit that hard!
david clarke: And then, once we clear that you're not done yet, even though that's a big step forward. Now, what a psychology say God's truth in psychology there's healing we have to do. There are traumas we've been through.
david clarke: and even in a situation where you you have been married, and you got divorced for a biblical reason. There's still traumas you have to work through, because if you don't, all that will create and sustain shame. So let's heal psychologically. Once we have the Biblical foundation, God wants that.
david clarke: And then, thirdly.
david clarke: what what is the third 10, yes, oh, small less he, I've I've after talking to people for decades. I've got 105 of his classic. His most popular divorce lies. Divorce lies.
david clarke: and I'll give the lie. And then what? How? You can respond to that line very specifically. and that's gonna be powerful. And then, lastly.
david clarke: I've got this whole community now that God has created for us, of of people that are following us and involved in social media people that I've talked to on the on the phone and their input has been so important in all of my books. And now this one, especially when my question was, How do you?
david clarke: How do you? How? What things did you do? What did how did God guide you in terms of what helped you get out of the guilt and get out of the shame? And they gave us some wonderful ideas. So those are things that actually worked for actual people. So I think it's a it's a great package.
Andy Miller III: I love it. Well, I wanna kind of just hit on all 4 of those areas just a little bit. Of course, I don't wanna give it the full treatment cause. What they need to do is get your book or check out your tiktok channels, and that those sort of things our Tik tok channel. But the the Biblical case is that the first thing and and you always do that, and just to, we don't need to talk about here in Sicily. But I always love it. It's coming somewhere in a David Clark book chapter 8 comes in and you just present the Gospel after you've kind of talked about. The Bible says, you know, like everywhere in a David Clark book, that somewhere comes along and then says, Hey.
Andy Miller III: are you Christian? If not, here's how you become one. So I love that
david clarke: always that that, of course, is so important, man alive! And of course it's so simple. And of course I make the point, like in all my books. If you if you're gonna pull off what I'm talking about in this book, it's extremely hard. You can't do that unless you know God through Jesus.
Andy Miller III: So yeah, that's my dad and I were very big on that. Of course my dad's gone now. He's always in heaven. And and now but we're going to continue giving the gospel. Yes, we are. So. What are some of the the Biblical reasons for divorce? And, like you, you walk through that you? You want to be honest with people with what's going on, and I love that you just you. You print present this pretty clearly at the beginning. But give us some of those reasons.
david clarke: There are 3 in my way of thinking. After after careful study, we and 2 are accepted by the Christian community almost universally, and the third is not, I mean the minority on that. But too bad, I'm right, I think, has has has taught that. But the first one is adultery.
david clarke: That's 19. Jesus himself makes this clear. This is a reason. And all these reasons, like adultery. Once that happens, the marriage is shattered, it is destroyed. You could heal from that, if if you choose, but that that breaks a marriage so adultery.
david clarke: and and with all the cases I've seen. Frankly, it's not just one instance, it's a pattern. And the person's not gonna stop it. Okay? So adultery. And then we have first Corinthian 7, 15, which I think covers the other 2, and there are other verses we could look at, but we have the abandonment by the unbelieving spouse. This is clear. Paul, of course, taught that most Christians would say impasse, yes, that's certainly one
david clarke: the third one, and this probably been maybe 4 or 5 years now I've come to this after a lot of study. Dr. Wayne Gruden was instrumental in my understanding this brilliant man.
david clarke: and he was really the I think the pioneer here, and that is first granted in 7 15. The last part.
david clarke: when he says, in such circumstances, what that is referring to is, I think, chronic, ongoing abuse, whether physical or emotional, would also be a Biblical reason
david clarke: for divorce.
Andy Miller III: Yeah. So, going back to the the first one we talk about adultery. This is where it gets a little people can can try to.
Andy Miller III: I don't know. Then what do you do with the needle? You take the thread the needle. You try to thread the needle, so there's well, what is it? Is? Is adultery, addiction to pornography is adultery an emotional affair where you're, you know, Le, living in intimate, sharing secrets and being, you know, intimate in a ways it's not physical, the spouse, or is it just when the act is committed. Help us understand, like what what's in what's involved with that? What is adultery?
david clarke: Jesus himself uses the term porneia in that passage, and that is a broader term for sexual sin. So I believe I've seen it in person in my office over 35 years, 40 years. Certainly this would be physical adultery, actually with having physical contact with someone, not your spouse.
david clarke: but it also includes in my mind pornography, that is adultery. It's it's a it's a problem with the mind. Jesus himself says to Matthew 5, if you even look upon a woman to lust after her, you have committed adultery with her in your heart. Okay, that that's that's a good definition. I will include script clubs. I will include a massage parlors. And all these emotional affairs. Many men have tried to tell me my office well, day, but II never touched her. She was in Texas. It was just all online. I said, I don't make a difference
david clarke: that you have permitted adultery.
david clarke: the intimacy, the sexual things that were shared, the bonding. Putting that person over your wife and look. Every single emotional affair involves the sexual
david clarke: only in your mind. Well, of course it does. This isn't a brand. So no, all those things and if someone doesn't agree with that at my office, II say, well, there's you see that there that's called the door, Lee, I'm not interested in talking to you.
Andy Miller III: I love that you say that very often I think it's helpful. This is, I'm not changing on this. By the way, like this. This is the foundation that I'm moving from. I love it. That now one thing in interesting like the challenge can be sometimes is people ee, let's say an emotional fair something's happening. But what even if it's just attention
Andy Miller III: that you take away from yourself, like some some people talk about the Mike Pence or the Billy Graham rule those type of things that are around, where you're not alone with another person like. I even wonder when we, when we move to the place for and putting ourselves and our people put themselves in positions where they just have a deep friendship with somebody who's not their spouse, but of the opposite sex. I mean, some people say, Well, Andy, how can you work? How can you live in the world if you do that? But do you think those type of boundaries are appropriate.
david clarke: absolutely cause. I've seen the current engine so of you being administered. And yet what happens when you don't do that and send us like you're on a path that doesn't seem so bad at first.
david clarke: Well, I took my secretary to lunch. It was. It was a secretary's day was just the 2 of us and her and I you know it. My! My! My my work! Life, you know that's kind of a joke. It's that's all. Reserve. God wants all that for your spouse. So they have to be clear lines. You can get along with people.
david clarke: I'll tell couples for years, hey? If you are, if you're a couple you have. You do not have individual, you know, opposite sex friends that are just yours. That's wrong. You're if you're single, go ahead. You're married, you have couple friends.
david clarke: and you do couple of things together. because once you step outside of that, Satan is thrilled. and and 2 years from now 3 years from now, 6 months from now you're gonna cross the line.
david clarke: And at that point it seems like no big deal cause you've already gone this far. Why play with fire? Oh, no, I'm very, very clear on that, because we see all the horrible things that happen. If you don't do that.
Andy Miller III: Umhm. So like even even people who use that language workwife, that's that's like a a red flag like, let's not even let's not even say these type of things I love. I mean, I love that you're emphasizing. I want. If people need to hear this, Dr. Clark. They it's it's easy kind of well, you know, our job requires us to have to be alone. And we we just needed to do this. And so what else can I do?
david clarke: Yeah, there's all kinds of things you can do. And what's happening is what I talk to these people all the time. They're if they're honest, there's something else happening. It is not just business.
david clarke: You know. II you find this person attractive. They're they're a friend. There's a little bit of a vibe going on. That's what Satan can play with. There shouldn't be a vibe. In fact, I was. I was taught this years ago at the beginning of my practice. It was very wise for both my dad and a great psychologist named Dr. Tim Foster said, Look, if you if you ever see a lady and you, you don't see them before you come in. Obviously, you you don't really look like it. A woman comes in
david clarke: and and you, for whatever reason she's she's seductive, or she's coming on to you. Or even if that's not happening, would you find yourself thinking, Wow, this is a beautiful woman. That is the last time you're going to see her you come up with any excuse at all, but you do not see her again.
david clarke: Well, end of story that only happened to me, I'm thinking, back on my career. and the blonde can't hear me, which is good. But she already knows, I think it happened maybe twice
david clarke: over. How many thousands people have I seen?
david clarke: I thought, you know what? Yeah, there's just I don't even know the person. But there's just a little bit of a vibe. We're attracted to certain people. There's like a chemistry. Okay? Done
Andy Miller III: on the right psychologist view. Why would that be why you come up with whatever reason, you know, and you just move. And that expertise, there's a vibe here. It's not, you know. I don't think I could be the right person, for you both. See, that's you have a secretary. How many times hundreds of times I've had men in my office, they ruin their marriage because they went too far with their secretary or some other co-worker.
david clarke: At the beginning they would have said, Oh, what's the big deal? There's nothing going on here. Yeah. Well, there is now. and you're one solving on my couch, and and you've destroyed trust because of some woman that you went too far with. So don't even. Of course this is the message description don't even go up even near the line right? Not a hint.
david clarke: You don't want to see the line get away from it.
Andy Miller III: I love it. I love it running from that I so appreciate. I think it's just helpful to see how people get in these situations. I don't I know that we're kind of emphasizing on this book, thinking about divorce, and where it's headed, and what and how we move beyond that? But people can look back, too, into other things. You've written about abuse, and why we need to run from it. And part of this is generally you are hard on them.
Andy Miller III: These dirt bag narcissists, you just like you. How do we see a narcissist coming, Doctor Clark? What do we? What do we need it like? What do we do? Oh, no, no, I'm asking, what what is a narcissist like? Why do we need to avoid them? And who are they?
david clarke: These are supremely selfish individuals. It is all about them. They are the center of the universe. That's the core value and principle of a narcissist. He really is his own. Most of them are man. There's some women, but he is his own God.
david clarke: That would be bad enough. You can see all the terrible things that would happen there. But it's the person who is highly critical of you.
david clarke: and a verbally abusive, and there, there may be some physical abuse. There's no communication. Your need to mean nothing to him.
david clarke: What it the bottom line is. It is just blaming you for everything controlling. There's all kinds of things we could say, but the bottom line is, he is destroying you day by day, slowly destroying another person course to life.
david clarke: Everybody outside the marriage thinks this guy's the greatest because they don't live with it.
david clarke: The covert Narciss is loved by the community, and it's church. He knows the pastor, you know what. No, you're not living with them. These ladies are dying. He has no use for you, so it's just a steady diet of destruction and tearing someone down, and they know exactly what they're doing, and they enjoy doing it. It's entertaining cause. They have no conscience, there is no empathy. So I'm describing in my books. This is a monster. This isn't just a selfish guy, your typical man, that needs some correction. I did that for 30 years. That's not a problem.
david clarke: This is far, far beyond that. This is somebody who's not going to change, and if you don't get away from him he will destroy you. He'll. This is the person that turns your own children against you
david clarke: and spend a a 20 year period turning them against you because it suits. He wants to be more important than you.
david clarke: So it's just an awful evil person. That's what we're talking about.
Andy Miller III: So a lot of times that's at the center of what happens when abuse comes and you walk through, too, in this section in the Biblical section, where you talk about remarriage, too, and that, good as people are getting over the guilty feelings they have of divorce. The the biblical understanding of remarriage is something that you address here. So tell us about that a little bit.
david clarke: This is a very controversial topic.
david clarke: It's not for God. I think he's clear in the Bible which I had to had to study these patches very carefully, because many in the Christian community for their own reasons. These are petty, judgmental people. They don't care. There's a there's a pretty large camp. They don't care what happened in your divorce. Whether it was your fault or not you cannot remarry, and the point is some versus where Jesus talks about remarriage, and he doesn't mention any of the reasons, or doesn't mention remarriage. Well, that there are other verses they're missing
david clarke: bottom line. If you had a Biblical reason for your divorce
david clarke: and and and one of those 3 we mentioned earlier adultery, abandonment, or chronic emotional abuse. And you divorce for that reason, then, by, if so, facto you are, you are free to remarry. It's not your fault. It was your spouse's fault. And you now, if you marry someone who's a Christian for strengthens 7 makes that clear? But if okay, you he will give you a total reset.
david clarke: Now, here's the tricky part. Here's where people kind of fall down and have it fit over. and why Christian publishers wouldn't have this book. I think most of them.
david clarke: even in the event that okay, you I you would say, Dave, I, Andy. It was my fault my marriage ended on me. I did one of those 3. You know, marriage sins. I was divorced whether I filed for a bogus reason, or I was filed on my fault. I own it. Even those people guess what Jesus Christ died for that sin
david clarke: he absolutely did. If you'll receive that forgiveness and confess
david clarke: and do some recovery steps. Then you are also free to remarry. People don't like to hear that they would say you have to suffer the rest of your life never remarried and not even date. Frankly, if you don't mind, because of that sin.
david clarke: it's like Jesus didn't die for that, said, well, yes, he did so. If you heal, and you put you myriad, you, you curse, you healing, and you put God at the center of your personal life and your new relationship, your new marriage. God! Guess what God's gonna bless that! He'll give you a fresh start.
Andy Miller III: Amen. Yeah, this is great. I love it, emphasizing and stressing the importance of repentance, even if you were the person in the wrong. And and course you said heal like you have to move doesn't mean that you get to. We're we're not giving clearance for the person who had an affair with their secretary to go ahead and just marry their secretary in the same way, and just keep things going, because every without ever coming through and working through
david clarke: mode of repentance so well right. The the dirt balls, and I saw plenty of those you have in your ministry, too. Yeah, if I have an affair, my secretary, divorce my wife. I'm not sorry. Don't think I did anything wrong, because I'm a Nar. God. Will not, that you are committing ongoing adultery with that new person that will never stop, and God won't bless it.
david clarke: No, this this is the person who says, I before God, this all God requires. Praise Him. I'm so my fault. I own it. I was wrong. I'm I'm I'm claiming your forgiveness for this lord, and then and then there's a healing process, and then and then a reset.
Andy Miller III: and I have known. We have known many of our friends
david clarke: who who got divorced for non Biblical reasons, they admitted now, but God has Gru brought them to new Christian partners. They've done the healing, and they're happy, and they're serving the Lord, and it's it's wonderful. God loves restoration. That's why he's got.
Andy Miller III: Amen. I love it. And this is, that was a really helpful chapter that you had like for these people who are thinking about the fact that they? They know they look now. And they say, man.
Andy Miller III: I did this because I wasn't happy, that that was the wrong reason. How? What do you recommend. Like, let's imagine that that's in a situation where somebody wasn't a Christian, or maybe they were a nominal Christian, and they they got divorced because they well, I'm just not happy. I'm not fulfilled. We fight all the time that whatever it is. And now they recognize that that was wrong, and they're maybe moving on to a different relationship.
Andy Miller III: What what do you recommend? And I know you have recommendation for this. They do with their former spouse.
david clarke: You you're gonna have to make that right as much as you can. Not in some cases. And this is a wonderful thing. It doesn't have to happen, however, but if if you, if you, if you divorce your spouse because you were unhappy and you're not married, and your ex spouse isn't married.
david clarke: then the reaching out could include healing together, making it right, and then actually reconciling. Hey, that happens. And God would bless that. If that's not gonna happen, either one of you are remarried. Still, you need to go back and clean up the mess.
david clarke: And if the person wasn't abusive, then you're gonna go back and there's some steps you have to you. You you're looking for not necessarily in person meeting, but some letters and some contact where I'm sorry I was wrong. You make you make it right. You would ask for forgiveness, even if they don't grant that.
david clarke: Okay, with that, before God, you've done all you can. And so that that's a healing moment, kind of working it through, because if you don't do that, it will keep you in shame on some level, and it will affect your new marriage.
david clarke: Well, we don't want that, and the Bible's clear. You're at the altar, Matthew 5, and there's something between you and someone else. You stop what you're doing at the altar, and you go to the person. Okay, that's what we're saying.
david clarke: and that's very difficult to do.
david clarke: And the world would laugh their head off at that. Well, you you had every right to get divorced. They don't care about marriage, and you're unhappy. That's a great reason. Well, no, it's not so you're saying I was wrong, and that I've heard people that have gotten those kind of calls or their letters, and it means the world to them.
david clarke: It allows them even the person that was wrong to release it and kind of heal. And and especially if you have kids, that's the way to really kind of heal. So as you're parenting, co-parenting, and all that, it just helps.
david clarke: But yeah, I think it's important to do. You don't just pray to God and move on. You have to deal with that person, I think.
Andy Miller III: in in marriage is such an intimate, important thing for society, and the way God has instituted pre pro pre political institutions apart, the very essence of how we exist as people. But I'm curious, Dr. Clark, do you think, like that same approach this Biblical approach. Psychological approaches that could even be applied to other sin. May maybe you've cheated somebody in the past, and it's all over. You've repented. You've recognized your problem. But is that something that you should go back and and do something similar?
david clarke: I absolutely think so. Still. Caveats in Scripture. And it could be a neighbor could be a a previous business partner. Anyone you have wronged
david clarke: you, you need to make that right. This doesn't happen in society very often, because there's so many narcissists, and I don't think I have to do that. That would be awkward. Well, you know what sharing Christ is awkward. You have to do it. So yeah, you make the approach. And again people would say, Oh, but I know I know that person, and they'll be angry, and they'll be furious, and they'll treat me bad. You don't know that, and that isn't the point. Anyway, you make the approach.
david clarke: and and you're simply admitting fault and asking for forgiveness, and and and that's what that's your responsibility. But in many cases that will be well received, cause you're not calling and saying that was your fault, you lousy! I'm I'm owning it. I that was wrong, and in the and the Bible's clear on this, too. If there's if there's if you defrauded someone, and there was. There's money involved, and you paid that money back.
Andy Miller III: Zacchaeus, in the Bible in the New Testament. Right? Right? Restitution.
david clarke: I mean for heaven, how much did that cost the man?
david clarke: Whoa! You made it right, and God honors that. And so you that because if you don't do that same loves it. If you don't do that because it's still a thing in your life, and it's like a cancer, it's eating you alive. It's affecting everything cause you carry that
david clarke: had an example to my life. Let me tell this real quick. I just I just thought of it.
david clarke: I had wronged a man and his wife. Years ago, at church I was a deacon. I was too too young to be a deacon frankly, but that's another story. They asked me, and I said, Yes, but III it wasn't some awful thing, but it was awful enough. II had them removed as Sunday School teachers because of some situation that came to my attention, and I was wrong. I thought I misinterpreted.
david clarke: and so it took me, probably a couple of years until I heard my pastor talk about if you've wrong. So my thought.
david clarke: okay, that's that's these dear people. And as it happens, I was going to my car thinking, how could I? And they're standing right by my car, this very couple, wow! I thought, Whoa and I walked out and I said, I am. So I just have to say I it shouldn't have taken this long. I was wrong. I'm sorry for doing that to you, and they were so gracious to say, you know what? It's okay. We forgive you. But that was a big I was carrying that.
david clarke: Yeah, carry that. And I made a mistake.
Andy Miller III: Now, when you go back to do that type of thing. I'm curious. I've had occasionally had people come to a Po apologize to me, but it hasn't felt very much like an apology like somebody said to me one time, I'm sorry that you felt that I wronged you. What's a good apology like? How how do we do that?
david clarke: Well, that's a good question. It has to be hard. No, they worse than the lame apology like you were mistakes made. Certainly. Do I feel badly. Yes, I do, though. You you like these folks, I said. Look, I am. I am very sorry, and it's heartfelt.
david clarke: I'm feeling pain. I'm very sorry for what I did to you, and then you tell them what you did to them. You make it clear. So they know here's what I did. Here's what I said absolutely wrong. The other key is, I own, a hundred percent responsibility.
david clarke: And I. And furthermore, the next stages and I I'm trying to understand. I will never fully, but the pain I caused you, not just lip service, II and then the last stages, and this dear folks didn't do this, but I would have been okay with it.
david clarke: If you, if you want to talk this out with me, if you need to vent now or spend some time talking about it. II hear you you ring the time. And that's an apology. We are gonna during the relationship. Not that. Okay, like reading off a card. And I, okay, got that cause, you know, they don't get it. And they don't care
Andy Miller III: this so important, because, as we're trying to, you're trying to give people a prescription for getting over the guilty feelings they have for things that have happened in the past that are wrong, getting over the guilty feelings in divorce. And so like, that's the title. That's the the subject of this book. And and the second section, for this shame destroying method is to really work through the psychological
Andy Miller III: conditions that are needed to move beyond the shame. So we've we've addressed some of it a little bit. But anything you want to say about what happens in that face?
david clarke: Yeah, this, this, this will take some time to do. But I've seen these stages work very effectively.
david clarke: You gather a support team, big god of courses on the team or recovery coach, close friends, someone that's mentoring you, maybe a Christian therapist, and then and then you start reaching out to these people. You're gonna do 2 things. You're gonna go to all those who harmed you and traumatized you in your past. This is not just around the divorce. That's, of course, a key part of it. But
david clarke: since Satan will use any trauma and transfer it to your current trauma, the divorce. Okay, you're gonna go back, mom, dad, the neighbor boy down the street that abused me someone else, a a friend that betrayed me a previous marriage where they had an affair and devastate all that. We're gonna clean all that out. And secondarily, okay, who who have I heard? Who have I traumatized. Who am I really wrong? Like being that dear couple? You're gonna take care of that. So what God wants in your divorce is to catch you up to the present and clean all that garbage out
david clarke: doesn't have to take. It will take 3, 4, 5 months, but
david clarke: you vent it verbally to your therapist and your close friend, and to God a lot of venting about these things.
david clarke: and then depending on the circumstances that I'm abusive person. Then you I'm I'm a letter, Guy, so you will write what I call the throw up letter where you just leave. How could you? And that's not what they don't send that, and then for those that harms you, and then and then the letter of forgiveness where you okay you. This is one you can send when you just kinda condense it. And here's the deal, and you would send that off. I've seen that work many times. It's tough. It's very difficult, so it isn't just a brief prayer. God's already forgiven you.
david clarke: But but yeah, this other person, okay, haven't, hasn't had a chance, or you haven't forgiven someone.
david clarke: And again the world says to you, Okay, if you've been abused or sexually mistreated, and that's obviously awful. But the world wants you to hang on to that you should never forgive that person. You should hang on to that forever. Well, hey, that doesn't work. That's gonna eat you a lot.
david clarke: Now you're not gonna reconcile with that person. Okay, this is really forgiveness. But you know what cleaning that out that gives you the fresh start God wants you to have. But it always comes with work
david clarke: as Christians. We love to think that, God willing, there are breakthrough moments, of course, and ceremonies and prayer, but he doesn't just go boom! You're good. I mean, he could do that, obviously, but he doesn't. He wants the process, and as as through the process we heal, we grow closer to him. That's what he wants.
Andy Miller III: This is this is hard, Dr. Clark. I'm just gonna admit some of these things that you're saying like, I think, of some of the people. And there are multiple people who, as a result of you being on my podcast. Have actually left abusive, hard terrible situations, and I'm thankful
Andy Miller III: it's kind of a strange thing to say I'm thankful for, but I'm thankful God Jews, you in these people's lives. I'm glad that I could be a channel for that.
Andy Miller III: But even thinking of some of those situations, and from when I was a senior pastor. there are some real dirt bags out there, Dr. Clark.
david clarke: there are some real, unrepentant.
Andy Miller III: terrible, awful men I'm sorry to get. Just keep on them inside. I'm sure there's some I know there are some awful women, too. But it's
Andy Miller III: is this asking too much? I mean, is this is this, it just seems like so much they have to like. Try to go back to that painful situation. III don't think it is, but I want you to answer that kind of imagine people are thinking it.
david clarke: Oh, they are. I get a lot of resistance. Do I have to? Yes, you do now with a dirt ball Narcissist, who harmed you, sir, terribly okay. You're not. You're not going near that person directly. You're not. That's a pool, and and he's gonna harm you. But you will still go through the steps
david clarke: in my office. I often had the the empty chair. You're gonna okay. We're putting the dirt ball, Bob, in that chair and you're gonna talk to him and psychologically, and God makes it happen. It's as if he was there. So you're gonna write letters all the letters, and you're gonna vent. He will never know what happened, because he's a dirt ball
but you still have to go, and that's very painful work, even without going near the dirt ball. He never knows what's going on.
david clarke: because the the the dirt ball narrow to simply use it all against you and cause more trauma. We're not doing that.
david clarke: but to clean it out even behind the scenes is, are I have to relive that. Yes, you do. My point is, you don't know it, but you're reliving it every day. If you don't do it, it never goes away. And guess what, Betty, if you don't do that with your ex and clean that out. If that's gonna try. All that stuff that's connected to him is gonna be fused to your new guy, your new partner. Well, you don't want that.
david clarke: That's exactly what happens. I'll never trust another man as long as I live. Okay, great, if you stay single, who cares? But if you remarry. That's not good. Whoa! So
david clarke: it is. It's I'm always the bear of bad news. It is
david clarke: brutal work. But, boy, it it works in the other. Yeah, this I, this is what takes. If you really want to move beyond
Andy Miller III: this sense of guilt, that's dominating your situation. Yeah. So you walk through. You have you have the these examples for kind of variety of cases, when people were the ones who are wrong in the divorce, when they were the ones who had been wrong. And are there? Are there other examples, too? II think there was a few more that you had, or, yeah, what were what were some of those examples of the ones that you wanna help walk people through.
david clarke: Yeah, there's different scenarios. There is the case where? Okay? III was not at fault, my partner, it committed adultery or abandon me or chronically abused me. And so and and I file, okay, that's that's that's one. And you can still feel guilty, or it could be that, you know. Okay, II was at fault, and and and my fault, and they and they filed on me. That's another scenario. A lot of people fall into the category of okay. There's no
david clarke: marriage, you know, ending sin. That happened none of those 3, but were just unhappy, and I divorced for that reason. That's not a Biblical reason. That would be a sin. That's something you have to heal from.
david clarke: So those are the I think the main scenarios and Sandy doesn't care what the circumstances are. He's gonna he's gonna still come after you.
Andy Miller III: Well, it's good. Let's get back to the state and piece. This is good cause I love, I mean I don't love it. I hate that we have to do this. But your section third section deals with the lies that come and these these
Andy Miller III: are intense. And there, this is so common. I it's it's multiple chapters where you work through these lies, and then tell us, tell us not your favorite. Tell us a few of the ones that you hear the most.
david clarke: And again, these. What Satan does is for Satan. He's the great liar, of course, the father of life, so still find ways to breathe these into your head, hit himself. But what he often does is he goes through other people, people that even you trust friends, neighbors, your bastard people that are frankly clueless, and and they'll put this on you Christian people.
david clarke: Okay.
david clarke: here's one. Here's a lie. And these people will say this, you broke up the family with your divorce. They don't care even what the circumstances were, the respond. Of course I always have a response. You're going to respond to that person. The key here is not just in your mind.
david clarke: But if this happened 2 years ago, or 6 months ago, or last week, and this person laid this on you in the church parking lot, or whatever my deal is, you're you're gonna be assertive. And one time you're gonna contact that person, email, text, whatever phone call. And you're gonna give the response, and then you're probably done with them.
david clarke: It does. Of course it's Biblical. It's truth. It gives that person a chance to repent. They're probably not going to. But the answer to that is, you broke up. The family is the family was already broken. Now the family can heal. See? That's truth.
david clarke: Yes, yes, yes, I told these ladies that have been in these horrible marriages. You are. Only if you file, you have a right to file Biblically, you're only formalizing what's already happened. He has destroyed it, anyway. But the church doesn't want to face that. Here's another one.
david clarke: Oh, and here's you hear this from the church all the time. The most important, you'll be told the most important thing was saving the marriage. They don't care if you're destroyed saving your marriage. Okay, what you have to put up with you, Major. Bet the the truth is, what about saving me? There was no marriage to save. I mean that that's true. I haven't had a marriage for 10 years. He's treating me like garbage, but they want you to save the marriage.
david clarke: Okay, one of the classics which has an element of proof to it, because we know that Malachi, too.
david clarke: God hate you. We told God hates divorce. Well, gosh, thanks, I'm already divorced, I guess so. The response to that is, and this is, here's the nasty truth. When you hear that
david clarke: what you're really saying is, God hates me. That's what they're saying without saying it. That's not true. God loves me more than the marriage, and this is what people understand. He loves you more as much as he loves marriage, he loves you more.
david clarke: He doesn't send Christ to die for your marriage, he, he, even though it's a high value. He sent Christ to die for you. So these are, I think, these responses. Course I'm I'm edier than most people, as you know, Andy, but I think if you can approximate what I say back. It is free, it's empowering. And it isn't about the other person, because who knows how they're gonna react. And frankly, who cares? You're gonna speak truth, cause if you take the hit
david clarke: and we don't say anything, it hurts you. It's another wound and kind of fast ring in your mind. Well, God does hate divorce
david clarke: until ladies, he doesn't hate your divorce. You wanna know why? Because he loves you.
david clarke: If you confess the same, even though it was your fault. God literally says in the Bible, what! And you keep confessing it? He says, what are you talking about?
david clarke: It's gone deepest parts of the ocean. The Bible says.
david clarke: I'm on a ramp. This is one of Dave Clark's rants.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, it will put it on Tiktok, I'm sure. Go ahead and do it it. It's it's so interesting that think about these lies you have. I'd like how you you kind of turn around like against Satan, but it also could be that Satan is using
Andy Miller III: somebody who is texting you or writing, and you could take II love. II was thinking about this as I was reading this section for your book, that you see these lies, and I think you would be fine if people just took word for word what you said. So, for instance, yeah, you broke your marriage vows. No, I didn't. This is the truth. I had a Biblical reason to divorce, so I didn't break my vows, my spouse broke laws. And then here's this one, my, that! My spouse broke my vows. Sorry. Didn't complete that sentence.
Then how about this when somebody says, well, you broke your marriage vows because you filed for an unlocal reason. Here's the David cart. Truth.
Andy Miller III: Thanks for staying the obvious. I did break my vows, but I have repented, and then completely forgiven. By God, I don't ask for or need your forgiveness. I like, I just think, if people are hearing these type of lies, they can just take these kind of simple pointed responses and apply them. I mean, you're okay being plagiarized in that way. Right? Absolutely. II like my words. I worked hard on those responses.
david clarke: and if you say that that's empowering, and it is the truth.
david clarke: and you don't. Even you don't even wait for their responses in an ongoing relationship. I've had some cases where you you get back to personal like that. You say, look about that thing you said to me, here's the truth. Text email phone call done and you hang up. You're done. Sometimes that person will actually
david clarke: be convicted and call you back or contact you, and say you know what you're right. I had no right saying that I'm sorry, but don't bet on it.
david clarke: Blind squirrels do find a chords. Not very often. These are judgmental people, and they're petty, and they believe what they're telling you and the end. And there's. There's an awful list of this, because these people.
david clarke: it's wolves and sheep's clothing. They want you to continue to suffer in shame for the divorce that's that's what they want.
david clarke: Well, that's that's not what God, that's what say they're really in in Satan's Satan's camp. That's not what God wants right? The the thief on the cross. Obviously a Christ had no business. Being on the cross, he he was guilty of no sin but the people next to him, you know, and and the one guy, obviously a murderer who? No, he was, he deserved to be there, and Christ forgave him. Well gone.
david clarke: So whatever is, was far guilt worse than divorce, for Heaven's sake. But in the church divorce is maybe the number one inexcusable sin.
Andy Miller III: Wow! It just seems like it dominates.
Andy Miller III: Well, yeah, I love the the end of the book, the fourth section where you work through these, the the peace situations that have arisen. And so and you, you get this community that's coming up with opportunities of how this really can work. So tell us some of those insights as well. Yeah, this. This was great. My people really came through things that they'd actually done.
david clarke: Here's a few one, of course, and you would expect this to be the case. I just I am worse myself in the Bible. I've studied the Word of God. and and and and and the verses on divorce, and remarried. That's why I made that a part of the book, and that really it really helped, because we know the power of God's Word. Absolutely talk about nuclear power can't touch it. It's powerful.
david clarke: And then, of course, building a new life. If you stay static in a dark room and you never change, and your life isn't different. That will always remind you where you're stuck. So we move forward, we and that's what the local churches for. We serve. We help other people. We get out of ourselves. That was very helpful to many of my people.
david clarke: And just the realization, one lady said, just the realization that my life was so much better after the divorce. My piece, the joy! That's what God wants me to until I have to do guilty, because look what's happening now, all the way. God is God's God is a blessing me.
david clarke: another lady said. They've been a guy, and I look at my children, and they're better off
david clarke: even half the time not being around the horrible person is is has improved their lives.
david clarke: So just just things like that practical things family friends are. These ladies get isolated during a bad marriage, and so they they reach back out to family and friends and church and man, that many of them have to start with a new church.
david clarke: But God is God is faithful. He'll lead to the right place, and you can begin to grow and prosper. And it was just great hearing that because and they would just say, this, this is what really helped me. And now I'm at peace. That's what God wants. He wants you to be at peace. He's done with a divorce, if you confess it done.
Andy Miller III: Amen. Amen. It's interesting. Dr. Clark is in my role as academic Dean at Wesley Biblical Seminary. I'm often the disciplinarian sorry to say, particularly student and some people, and also the person people complain to about concerns they have with their classes, and that's fine, like I'm that's that's a role that I need to take on. But I had somebody come to me this past summer, and they're wanting to be a pastor. They're wanting to be a better pastor.
Andy Miller III: But they said, Look, my professor, I just can't. I don't. I don't. He's having me write too much. I don't wanna write. And I really don't wanna read either. What I really wanna do is I just wanna be some tips to be a better pastor, you know. Can I just come to classes and sit in a class and just have some tips and get some tips here and there, and like, I remember this list and like man like.
Andy Miller III: And I think, like some people might be listening. Maybe they clicked on this Youtube channel, or however, they're hearing this on the audio like, podcast and they're saying, Well, II want to move past the guilty feelings.
Andy Miller III: But after hearing all Doctor Clark says in reading this book
I don't wanna do it. It's like I'm I. It's just too hard. Can you get? You've you've hit on a little bit, but just highlight. Why somebody should want this, why they should pursue this work
david clarke: now, because if you don't, then you're you're stuck in guilt, and you're stuck in shame, and Satan's not gonna lose any opportunity to keep you there. So you don't have to do the work. But it's not like it just goes away. Time doesn't help you. You have to do the work. So you're you're gonna be stuck. And you know, God love you, you can make that choice
david clarke: but the benefits.
david clarke: And and you think about always saying the benefits. Anything of value in life is worth working for. Things aren't just handed to you. You've got to work for them. Even the sanctification process. Our salvation is completely free. Praise God, sanctification is hard work. It just is.
david clarke: I have to get up in the morning, and I have to, but I want to but spend time with the Lord, and throughout the day, and grow and serve. Faith has to be built so the benefits of what you'll get at the end. Oh, my goodness!
david clarke: You know we we have 2 brothers in the same family, and one barely makes it through high school and ends up working at Mcdonalds, and that's nothing wrong with that. But he could do more. But he's he's satisfied, and that's that's where he gets
david clarke: no work. The other guy who goes to medical school, or even psychologists go, which is harder. I'm just kidding, or or he, it becomes a theologian like, anyway, you are. Iii, you can, you know, then really advances? Okay, what's the difference? Work? Just work. It's it's always worth it. But it's course it's up to you. You make the choice. That's right, and you have to leave it to them.
Andy Miller III: I just want to
Andy Miller III: thank you, Dr. Clark, of last time we talked to you. You found out about my contender book, and this has gotta be published, and you've gotta do some work, Andy. You gotta you gotta put it out there. And so you wrote letters for me and we got it out. And then this past summer is published. So my thanks to you for helping me realize that I needed. I had something that needed to have a little wider access, you know, wider publication in the world. So you've been a great encourager to me, Dr. Clark. I'm so thankful
david clarke: thankful for your time today and for this word that comes to to people who are still trapped by their own guilt of their divorce, we want them to get beyond that. So thank you for writing this book. Nobody really talks about it.
david clarke: You never hear it, and it's awesome. It's in the Bible for a reason, and you've done a wonderful job with it. Yes, you have. Thanks so much. 25 versus it's just 25 verses. But, man, if we were able to read those verses and act on them and really see this call to contend. Poof!
david clarke: Anyway, it's what we need. That's why you like it.
Andy Miller III: Thanks so much for your time, Dr. Clark and people. If you're interested in this, if you're listening and you're interested. Book, there's a there'll be a link in my show notes for this, or you can go to David E. Clark, Phd. Com. And you can find out more about Dave, Dr. Clark's ministry, and or maybe there's like something you're you're aware of like marriage challenges dealing with people who are nurses. This all these type of things Dr. Clark has been gifted by God for this moment to be able to help you, and II hope
Andy Miller III: I hope you'll check out his resources. Thanks for coming, Dr. Clark.
david clarke: Thanks, Andy. A pleasure.