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Welcome to Driven By Excellence, your trusted place for all things logistics and road safety from PDT Fleet Training. Each month, join host Hattie Hlad as she interviews experts on a wide range of topics within the logistics field.
Hattie Hlad
Driven By Excellence, your trusted place for all things logistics and road safety. The UK economy has beenstruggling with the rising fuel prices and cost of living, there is also a well-documented shortage of truck drivers that is putting yet more pressure on the supply chain. According to Logistics UK, there is currently a shortfall of over 60,000 LGV drivers. The already exceptionally low number of HGV drivers claiming Jobseeker's Allowance fell to just 60. So the marketplace for drivers is extremely competitive. During this podcast, we will deep dive into what employers do or could do to attract more driving talent into the industry, and most importantly, how to retain them. So with me today are two logistics employers Jack Hicks and Peter Cox. Jack, let's start with you. Can you introduce yourself and tell our listeners what your background is and what your current role is?
Jack Hicks
Yeah. Good morning. I'm Jack. I've been in logistics for 13 years now. Initially, starting with DHL. I spent sort of three, maybe four years there and yeah, I've been with Pertemps now for 10 years, branch manager overseeing the recruitment business across one of our branches, and also heading up the skills boot camp, and working on that project, working closely with the gov and our employers, and providing more drivers into our industry.
Hattie Hlad
Amazing, and Peter, what about you?
Peter Cox
Yeah, my name is Peter. I've been in logistics for 40 years. So probably well before Jack was born and I started as a driver and I have my own business, latterly I've been working for CLEAN linen for the last 12 years as a transport manager, and now head of transport.
Hattie Hlad
So let's start this off super easy, let's go in with recruitment. How do you recruit drivers Jack?
Jack Hicks
So now I think the biggest avenue for getting drivers and getting drivers in and people seeing our adverts is definitely online job boards, multiple job boards. I don't think it's always about people going and looking directly on a job board. But I think that the most common thing a driver does these days is going on to Google, searching for jobs in my area, which will then take them on to a job board. So for us, it's about making sure we got all of the job boards are populated, multiple sources there and then yeah, social media, I suppose is a big one now. So trying to reach out and actually go find the drivers, using advertising to sort of reach out to them and going down that avenue really, they're probably the biggest ones. But then I mean, aside from that it's sort of billboards, it's visuals, getting out there sort of reaching out where we think the drivers might see us. So what about you Pete?
Peter Cox
Well, we piggyback onto a lot of that with PDT anyway. So we certainly use a lot of internal recruitment as well. So we do refer-a-friend schemes, where we offer financial rewards for those employers who are referring those particular people. So friends, family, workmates that they've worked with before. Places like Indeed, we use a lot and we use our own internal website and social media.
Hattie Hlad
You've both touched on social media, has that changed anything, made a huge impact in recruiting people?
Peter Cox
Well, I think for us it does. I mean, you know, the drivers of my ilk who would never touch a piece of technology before, we find even now, we're trying to recruit more younger people into the marketplace anyway and we find that, from a tech point of view, social media posts, get out there really, really quickly, it's very sharp. You know, we tend to get a lot of feedback from those, as well. So we get a much more website, on retainer. Now in my day it was a newspaper, we don't have newspapers anymore, I don't think I'd know how to apply for a driver's job anymore. But generally, we get a lot of contact through refer a friend and things like, you know, job posts on social media and such like.
Jack Hicks
Yeah, I think in terms of social media, I think even going back sort of 13 years, when I started, I think we still used newspapers a little bit then and even more so going back further than that, that it was probably the thing to do. But I think for me, social media is massive now, I mean, many drivers they're parking up on their breaks, they're scrolling through their phone, looking through Facebook, looking through Instagram, whatever really just to see sort of what's going on and then I think being able to use targeted marketing through social media, so that, you know, that it pops up on their newsfeed, it goes out and finds them is key for us and we attract so many drivers through that. I think using some of the fantastic marketing tools everybody's got now as well to use social media, I think is huge for us. So yeah, I think it's crazy, probably for you to think 20-30 years ago, it wouldn't even be considered but...
Peter Cox
Wouldn't have a clue
Hattie Hlad
But it's interesting now, would you say the printed press still works or is that something you tend to avoid as a whole?
Peter Cox
I don't think we use it at all. I don't use it at all anymore. It's generally all online, either through a recruitment agency or a job board, or through Facebook or LinkedIn or, you know our own website.
Jack Hicks
Yeah, I think, from my point of view, I think we noticed there was probably a time, probably around 8-9 years ago, where it was expensive as well to advertise through newspapers and so on and what we would get back would be not worth it at all. Not financially viable to run with them. I think the only place where I would say, sort of printing press does still work is maybe sort of industry magazines, industry knowledge magazines, things that are sort of left there, or exhibitions and sort of stuff that you can get printed in that way. So I think we would definitely do that and look at some of the leading magazines out there. But I think your local advertising newspaper, probably not something we would do anymore.
Hattie Hlad
What are other ways to recruit drivers? What are things you've both been involved in, like apprenticeship programmes? You mentioned skills, Jack, so that's the government skills boot camp?
Jack Hicks
Yeah, absolutely and Pete, who we've got here today, we work with him and his business on that. But I think that's been great for us and it has given drivers an opportunity to get into the industry that perhaps might have thought about it a few times, you know, they may have been van delivery drivers, or worked in the warehouses, or maybe, you know, a different industry altogether and thought, that's something I'd like to do. So many people ask me about HGV training and LGV training and before the skills boot camp, one of the first questions was, how much does it cost, you know, and that's quite a lot of money to sort of side with to go into the industry. So being able to work on this government incentive has been fantastic. I mean, we've had hundreds and hundreds and drivers going through, and we've had thousands that are showing an interest. So for me, it's great, it gives an opportunity to get drivers into the industry, gives us an opportunity to work closely with businesses like Pete's to say that, you know, we can help you here, as somebody who doesn't, maybe especially some of the SMEs that potentially can't commit to huge amounts of funding to get large numbers through the door, it's great to give them an opportunity and work collaboratively to get more drivers into those companies and into the industry.
Peter Cox
Well it's been a challenge for a long time, finding the right process and the right way to recruit externally. So I think we've actively been trying to promote our own academy and actually, the boot camp came along just at the right time for us, because it's enabled us to be able to develop the academy a lot better. So for the first cohort that we delivered on, we had 33, I think went through that particular boot camp process. The big lesson for us, has been, you know, making sure we get the right candidate coming through and it's got to be the people that want to come into the industry, rather than see an opportunity to just get another qualification because, you know, it's a life skill, this and it's just not about driving. There are many, many other opportunities in logistics, you know, we're really proud in our business that a lot of our current supervisors, team leaders, transport managers even, have started as drivers with us, and they've come through the process, and they've developed and we've allowed them to do that. So, you know, having opportunities is another thing. So, you know, a lot of people think it's just a driving role although that's very, very important, you know, there's a pathway that comes all the way through, and I'm probably a good demonstration from... it took me a long time, but it's a demonstration that 40-years ago, I was driving.
Hattie Hlad
Yeah. Looking from a wider perspective, how do you think the general public view both the process to become an LGV driver and then the role itself? Jack, can I start with you?
Jack Hicks
I think initially I think a lot of people just don't understand it. I think a lot of people think but it's a long process and it's something that's quite daunting because people are driving cars or working down on the motorways, used to seeing these big lorries and thinking, you know, it must be quite a process to get to drive that or not something I can do and I think working with a lot of with PDT and a lot of the people coming through, I think people have been surprised it actually is achievable. The training out there is of good quality, and it's something that we can do. So I think the process is something that, if I'm honest, I think people don't know a huge amount about, I think if people research it, I think a lot of different answers come up because you've got sort of class two, class one, you've got seven and a half, you got trailer licences, and all sorts of things. So I think some people potentially look at it, don't really understand it, and then sort of just move on. So I think that would be would be my experience. But then I think once you actually speak to somebody, and they get guidance on, whether that be from us, or from Pete, or whoever I think and you talk them through the whole process, they're quite surprised, actually, it is achievable and the timescales aren't what some people might think they would be, and especially in comparison to other qualifications or things that you would need to do to get I mean, you know, apart from wait times, it can be done pretty quickly. What's your thoughts Pete?
Peter Cox
Well, it's a real fast track, I think, through sort of to a qualification, you know, you'll struggle to get a qualification as quickly in any other interview, I think, you know, I mean, the caveats to that are I mean, people absolutely still think that it's a dirty job and it's not, you know, these days, the trucks are so much cleaner, the environment is so much cleaner, you know, facilities still, if you're tramping or on long-distance journeys, or overnighting a lot, it can be challenging, but they're not the only jobs in logistics, you know, there are many, many other jobs which don't require overnight work either. So, I think the perception sometimes it's a bit of a drawback for us, you know, we haven't ever until very recently sold ourselves particularly well. It's always been under-resourced, and I mean, the driver shortage has been here for donkey's years. It's not just a recent thing. This is years and years in the making and so, you know, trying to recruit younger people and being more diverse as well, you know, so the diversity piece for me, you know, we actively want to bring more women into our industry, we have to do that, you know, but we got to be flexible with it, you know, so we have to understand that people's needs are greater than just coming to work, nine to five, they need the flexibility to work whenever they need to, or whenever they can.
Jack Hicks
Yeah, I think on that as well, I think I think more people than ever are looking are Googling and seeing what it is to become a driver, because I think it's been such a hot topic and I say to people I think I have for the last 12 months, but actually probably for the last three or four years now. It's been a real topic about driver shortages. It's been on the news, we have been affected. We've got family and friends that have been affected. So I think because of that people have looked at and thought actually, well, if that's an industry that needs people, what do I need to do to get into that industry? So I think people do look at it more. I think people are googling and getting on the internet and seeing what it takes and how to get into the industry. So yeah, I think there's probably more out there than there used to be. I think it's up to people I guess, like PDT and other training schools and things to put marketing out there and to put good guidance out there to show what it takes and what's needed to become a driver because I think, you know, there's more of an appetite to become a driver now that I think I can ever remember there being so yeah.
Hattie Hlad
Just for our listeners, you've both mentioned that it's a quicker process than people think, would you be able to give me an average timeframe just for people that might be interested?
Jack Hicks
Yeah, I think realistically, even with sort of Gov waiting times, and waiting for test slots and so on, I think three to six months is achievable. At the moment, we're going through a large cohort of people with the government boot camp schemes and large amounts going through. So it is difficult because it completely depends on where you are geographically. If we wanted to book a test in Yeovil, we could probably get one in a few weeks, if we wanted to book a test in Manchester, we might be looking at a couple of months. So I think it depends where you are geographically, but in terms of the actual training, you know, if you've got a good training school that will organise everything for you, from your medical to your theory and give you the tools that you need to get yourself through that theory, the actual practical itself. I mean, once it's booked, you're probably only talking between five and seven days, including your test. So yeah, I think it's more than wait times, but realistically, I think three to six months, even in today's market is achievable.
Peter Cox
Yeah and I think, certainly been a boot camp, we decided right from the very start to employ our people. So we took them on from day one, knowing full well that there was quite a lengthy process going to happen. However, we've learned by that as well. So initially, we would have had them on a three-month probation whilst that was occurring, but it was quickly realised that because of the, you know, the government wait times for tests, more than anything else was a problem. You know, we've had to extend that. So I think, you know, our average time to take to get through the complete process was seventeen weeks. So you know, it's not a bad timescale to get them through. I mean some are a lot longer. Some were a lot, lot longer, but we did have guys going through within 12 as well. So...
Jack Hicks
Yeah, and I think what Pete was alluding to there is the way that their model is and how it works well with them is that they offer some upfront employment, which is great as well for us as a training school to me is engaging with them and I think it's important whilst we talk about timescales and looking at how long it takes and how quick a process it is, especially compared to an apprenticeship as you're looking at sort of a minimum of 12 months, that the training doesn't stop there. So once they've got that licence, I mean, we work with employers, and part of my role with PDT is key to work with employers to say, what training you're going to give these individuals once they passed because, you know, I think just speaking honestly, the LGV training gets them through a test, the training is not too dissimilar to your car test, you know. So I think once they then pass, it's looking with the employers and saying, what are you doing with these individuals, almost using them as if it's an academy or an aftercare service to build them up and get them into there. Because what happens if you don't do that is if they go straight in at the deep end, have a terrible couple of days, things don't go to plan, because they're not ready, they just fall out the industry and we're back to square one. So I think Pete actually it's probably quite good for you to say what you can do in terms of that?
Peter Cox
Certainly, from the onboarding perspective, once the guys are trained, you know, we need to make sure that they're safe. So having a ticket or licence to sell you can drive doesn't necessarily mean you've got the experience to do so. So you need to make sure you're gonna build that experience up, but in a controlled way, you know, we put buddies with these newly qualified people to ensure that they've got the support that they need, we're continually assessing their progress, we're constantly talking to these people every single day, to ensure that they're happy, they're satisfied. We do see some challenges along the way, absolutely. People lose confidence, you know, when reversing, you know, let's just say for example, they clip a bollard or something like that, they lose a little bit of confidence, and maybe they think it's not the job for them. But that's when, you know, our job really kicks in, is to make sure we can support that and if we can do that properly and effectively, by constantly giving them the availability of toolbox talks and e-modules, and you know, the assessments that we carry out as part of the academy, then we will keep these people and we're gonna come on a little bit later, a little bit more how of retain people. But there's a couple of analogies in there that I think are really, really useful. But, you know, the support is really important and the onboarding process is absolutely critical.
Jack Hicks
Yeah, I think Pete touched on buddying there and I think that's key. So a lot of employers will get them buddies, so they initially go out as a passenger, see the job firsthand, see what's going on, and then that buddy then, who would tend to be an experienced driver within the business, who's potentially gone through the same process and been with the company a while, and they would then become their mentor. So I think having that as well, is a huge help and just gets people along sort of the right path early on.
Hattie Hlad
Yeah, definitely. What incentives do you use to attract drivers to the role? Peter, I want to start with you.
Peter Cox
Well, I'm not saying we are any different than anybody else. But there was very much, just before Christmas last year, a huge push to keep drivers and there was, you know, employers are throwing money at drivers, absolutely throwing money, and it's not sustainable. You know, rates are still rising and again, depends on what industry you're working in, is whether you can compete. So, you know, we have to make sure that the incentives that we give are sustainable. So we've introduced a bonus scheme that allows drivers to earn more money through performance and that's based on safety, and functional performance, and service. So there are three things there, you know, we've got to be really careful on what we offer, because we can't incentivise the wrong way, we can't incentivise people to go faster or to finish quicker. So it's got to be in the right context and in the right way, from a legal standpoint. But I think, also, we try and be as flexible as we can with our people, we have to be, you know, we are a 24/7, 365 operation and so we need drivers every minute of the day and we operate a shift pattern and again, that's not always the one size that fits all. It's very difficult to have flexible working around that, but what we can do is fit drivers in around shifts. So the am shifts and the pm shifts, and so on and so forth, the weekdays and the weekends. So you know, we're able to do that, but it's increasingly difficult.
Hattie Hlad
What about you, Jack? Do you have any incentives that you use to attract people?
Jack Hicks
I think for us, I think on the agency side of our business, I think it's definitely about sort of training, development, being able to offer them some extra things whilst working closely with our training department. So if we've got HTV two drivers or LGV two drivers, it's about being able to give them the opportunity potentially to upscale to class one, it's about giving them support with their CPC sessions and, you know, a lot of people will just expect them to go and do their CPC on their own. So it's about being able to deliver that for them. We do some other things. I mean, you know, we do recommend a friend, which I think was mentioned earlier, which we definitely do and then I think also we we sort of act as that person on their behalf to speak with our employers to try and ensure that our employers are paying a fair price for what they're doing, making sure that we're providing industry knowledge and salary surveys and all sorts of things to try and ensure that when we have a driver coming to work for us, we can give them that sort of, that peace of mind that, you know, we'll pay them sort of fairly, and we will act on their behalf to ensure we give them plenty of work, I think that's the key as well as they want to be working. So it's what work they want to do, being able to say to them, what type of work are you looking for, and then talking through the opportunities that we have, and working closely with them and I think Pete touched on flexibility, I think that's become vital as well, you know, so, with so many agency, obviously, that's a biggie, a lot of drivers like that flexibility to be able to say to us what days they want to work, what shifts they want to work, when they want to take their time off, when they want to book their holidays. So I think for us, you know, we need to use that and as an agency employer, I say that flexibility is key, whilst we want them to help us and to use a phrase, jump out the trenches for us when we need them to, at the same time, we'll do the same for them and you know, if they need time off, if they need to do something different, or, you know, have the capacity to backfill that and let that happen.
Peter Cox
I mean, we are offering, you know, eye care vouchers, and eye care for drivers. So you know, we test their eyesight twice a year, as a standard for safety perspective. So you know, if there's a requirement, you know, we've got the eye care vouchers and the eyecare system, we use a policy, but also, you know, we pay now for their medicals and we can do that through PDT again, which is really easy. So it's a managed service. So that takes a lot of the issues off of us and also, in a lot of side of the bonus scheme really does help and the refer a friend scheme as well, Jack like we were talking about before, you know, again, it's a significant amount of money and I want to go back to the fact that, you know, they were throwing money at the drivers before Christmas last year, I think it has calmed down a little bit, we're comfortable where we are at the moment, we're competitive, which is where we need to be, we won't pay the top money, because we just wouldn't be able to afford that all the time. But we understand where we are in a marketplace, and we understand what we're trying to attract.
Jack Hicks
Yeah, I think in terms of the monetarys there and what Pete touches on with, you know, employers paying extra on bonuses and uplifts in pay during peak times, but I think for us, it's an incentive as well. It's working with drivers to say, Look, these are the opportunities we have, we can have regular work for you all year round, we can provide you these opportunities with our large client base and you know, I think we try and work with them to say, yes, there's probably going to be some more money around that you can go and earn for six weeks, or eight weeks. But you know, when that dries up and that comes to an end, what's then? You know, what opportunities do you have then? And I think we try and work them to say, these are the opportunities we've got, they're there all year round. Stick with us try and work with us and you know, we'll keep you busy throughout the quiet periods as well as the peak periods.
Hattie Hlad
That was what I was going to mention is, apart from obviously money or that any sort of things that the drivers have come to you and suggested or requested any incentives in that way?
Peter Cox
Yeah, I think drivers often come with some good ideas of incentives, they do like an incentive. I mean, some of them are out there a little bit. So things like gym memberships that they asked for, I think in our line of work, sometimes you won't need to join a gym, or you'll just come to work every day and that's probably enough for what you want to do. But I think you know, they come up with a lot of good ideas and generally, it's for their benefit and generally for their family's benefit. A lot of it revolves around the times, and so they can get this work-life balance. Don't forget, especially in this day and age now, what we've got is a really, really tough economy out there and we've got drivers that have got young children and partners that have to work as well. So that balance is getting harder and harder. So you know, again, as an employer, we want to be as flexible as we can towards our employees so...
Jack Hicks
Yeah, like we've touched on before, I think drivers always going to ask for financial benefits and bonuses and large bonuses over, especially peaks like Christmas and things like that, in terms of trying to keep and retain them. But I think what we know is there's definitely more drivers out there in the industry now and I think from my point of view, I'd be hoping that businesses, rather than throwing large amounts of money at bonuses and looking to attract new drivers that way, I think to put more money into the newer drivers, I think there's been sort of a concern about taking on new drivers or putting drivers through their licences and having newly qualified drivers in their businesses. But I think if they can invest some of that money in working with those new drivers, giving them the training, the support that they need to get them up to speed, then I think that'll override the additional workforce that they need. So I think if they're trying to attract in drivers from other businesses or from agencies or from other lines by paying big bonuses and paying increased rates, I think, for me, it'd be a far better option to say actually, let's look at the new drivers. Let's look at the new drivers coming through and how can we put some money into giving them the training materials and the guidance and the support that they need. So that, you know, as we come into peak, we've got these additional drivers that are now ready for our business and can work with us that way. For me, I think that would be this year, something that we will see more of, and hopefully we'll see a lot more of. But yeah, for me, I think that would probably be the best avenue to go down.
Hattie Hlad
Would you like to see legislative changes made to reduce or simplify the massive rules and regulations that drivers need to comply with?
Peter Cox
No, because most of them are for safety purposes, there are certain things, I mean driver CPC is one of them, you know that's always been quite contentious with drivers. I mean, we apparently we lost a lot of drivers out of business because of driver CPC, I'm not sure that's true. But I think it's seven hours a year, and over a five-year period. However, you know, it's got to be relevant to the job that they're doing and I'm pretty sure that there are a lot of CPC modules out there, that are filled up with stuff that just needs to fill the day up, you know, and it's not relevant, I think, you know, actually, it'd be much more constructive to employers as well, if they were shorter and they were much more bite-sized pieces of training over maybe a longer period of time. You know, drivers have already got the education through their training and these guys are professionals, you know, and I think sometimes they're not treated like professionals, and they should be valued as they are professionals. They're the experts in the industry, they're experts in their job, they come to work every day to drive vehicles that are killing machines, if they're let loose with the wrong people, you know, the biggest part of their job is safety. So that part of legislation, you just can't skip, you can't change that, we are huge within our business around safety, it's the main priority for us. We want our guys to go out every day and come back safe every single day and that's our mantra and I think, you know, any changes around training from a legislative point of view has to revolve around, you know, driver CPC alone, but nothing else, in my opinion.
Hattie Hlad
What about simplifying the EU driver's hour rules? Do you think that needs any work?
Peter Cox
I think they're fairly simple as is and I think a lot of drivers find them fairly simple, you know, professional drivers find them fairly simple. Working times, they're the ones that they find the most difficult. That's where they will probably pick up the most infringements. But you know, as a rule, again, you go back to the training, providing they've got that training, and that's been supported by their site teams, by their transport managers, and their team leaders and supervisors, it's part of their role, you know, it's part of their training, it's an expectation, I don't think that it's a difficult thing to expect a driver to do. So back to my previous answer, they're professionals and experts in their field, you know, and that's how they should be treated.
Jack Hicks
Yeah, I think in terms of the driving hours, I think where they do become slightly difficult is for newly qualified drivers, I think it tends to be something that once they've passed, and they've gone into the business, that they potentially are expected to know, or they wouldn't be as confident with it as they should be. So but I think that goes back to saying, you know, what we said about earlier is working with employees to say, are they given them the time? Are they working with them on these things? Because I know myself, I know the EU driver's hours rules, and, and it's not something that you can learn in a two-three hour session, you know, they're things you need to be told, again and again, need to look at again and again until they stick. So I don't think they're massively over complicated, they certainly wouldn't be for an experienced driver. But I think somebody new coming into the industry, knowing when they need to be taken that breaks, when they need to have daily rest, which way round they need to take their 15-minute break and their 30-minute break and I think those little things, definitely, you know, we need to make sure we're supporting them, their employers are supporting them. Even things like manual entries, and using tachographs and things. I think, touch wood, I think we're quite lucky, now there's not many of the analogue tachographs out there anymore. So we're pretty much all digital, which does simplify it a little bit and you know, makes it easier in terms of having to train people on two different things.
Peter Cox
Yeah, just going off that point as well Jack, with the advent of smart tachographs now, I think it's even more important these days that drivers understand drivers hours rules and laws effectively because these things will pick you up on the side of the road and identify any infringements that you might have. So it's massively important that the training is in there the drivers are aware of it and that they actually complete their manual entries every day and they just follow the rules.
Hattie Hlad
What does best practice on onboarding look like? How can you engage with new drivers that enter your business?
Jack Hicks
So I think it needs to be robust. I think you need to interview these people, go through the job and make sure they understand. For me, the businesses we'll be looking to put them into, I think for employers, they need to be making sure it's clear what type of work will be expected, what the working hours are, how things might affect their home life, if they're going to be doing a job that's completely different to what they've done before. I think it's very easy to and it has been very easy to say to try and sell a job to a driver to get them into the business rather than actually be honest and upfront and what that job entails and then obviously keeping the drivers and retaining them because I think from an onboarding point of view, you need to be sitting down with them, having a thorough interview with them, talking them through the job. Me personally, if I was an employer, I would want them in for a trial day, I would want them to see the job firsthand, I would want them to come around and see the truck, see what they'll be driving, and go through the ins and outs of the whole operation. So just from what I can affect in terms of an agency point of view, it's about going through all those clients, all the different, you know, businesses we work with, what we are sort of, are we putting them into multiple clients? Or are we assign them to one particular client? And we're going through the in-depth bit. But I think, probably from your point of view Pete, into you as a business, what are you doing to bring permanent drivers.
Peter Cox
Well, it's all of the above Jack, and the key for us is because transport is not our main part of our business, it's a supporting mechanism to what we actually do, which is launder linen, for our customers. So it's massively important that our drivers understand the business as a whole. So they will spend time in all areas of the business in service, they will spend time on the production line, we'll spend time with engineering and we spend time within the transport department, spend time going out with buddies, they will have all that experience in terms of the induction, which allows them to be able to do some of that on the job, but also some of it in the classroom. So they get to know, you know, specifically, I would say, we've recently introduced a new CPC module for customer service, bespoke to our business, which is a real game changer for us, because the importance of service because drivers are the face of our business, they always have been and always will be. So it's massively important that, you know, we ensure that they've got the ability once they're customer-facing, to be able to deliver a fantastic service.
Hattie Hlad
It's interesting because when doing some research, the average age of an LGV driver is 51 and less than 1.5% are female. How do you think the industry as a whole can attract a younger and more diverse pool of drivers, especially when there's multiple alternative career options available now?
Peter Cox
Okay, so in terms of the average age, it's been rising sharply over the last few years and again, you know, we're alluding to a driver shortage, it's been out there for probably well over 10 years, it's not a recent thing, it's only very recently in the press, because it's come to light, because people aren't getting their goods delivered to the supermarket and the stores. But it's been there for a long time. So you know, trying to recruit younger people in there, all I can revert back to is what I wanted to do when I was younger, you know, it was something that I always wanted to do. So it's either it's sometimes that's in you or it's not. So trying to promote logistics in the right way, is incumbent on our trade associations as well, which there's a lot of work going into in terms of younger drivers, and also in getting women into the business as well and there's a lot of challenges in that respect. It's a very, very small percentage, CLEAN have definitely targeted that as one of the things that we want to do and I've got a really good example of one of our women drivers that started as a driver, who's now a team leader at one of our plants as well. So the pathway was there, I think the challenges are around things like nights out and where they stop, you know, it's not the best place, the facilities aren't great in terms of stopping at and also it may well be that they're the main childcare provider in a house with two people working. So again, you know, that flexibility, you know, is required and it's no surprise that it's such a low percentage, more needs to be done, and more needs to be done to allow that to, you know, to facilitate that as well.
Jack Hicks
Yeah, I think in terms of numbers there, I do think it's a hot topic. I do think it's probably the time now, where we will see a slight change and things will start to improve. I think the average age is a mixture of things, I think now being able to have more funding programmes out there like the skills boot camp to enable younger people to get into the industry without having this huge upfront cost. I think that will help. I think our figures show that it has improved, those percentages are not good. I think the percentage of women, I think, on our skills boot camp programme is getting up towards 5%, which is still very, very low. But it's a large improvement on the industry average. So I think that's a positive thing and I think in terms of the average age and things as well, it's about employers and looking at things and what they've got set up as well. I mean, we still come up against employers that have got minimum age of 25 on their insurances to get drivers in and in working for them and their trucks, which is crazy to think we're putting people through on the skills boot camp, the minimum age criteria is 19. So there's sort of six years there that we can be working with. So I think it's about employers looking at their insurance premiums, looking at what they can do to bring new drivers in to have them set up and then definitely what Pete says, you know, I know it sounds like an easy thing to say, but getting out to schools, marketing it and showing the importance of it and actually saying, It's okay, it's okay to join this industry. Doesn't matter if you're male or female, come and do it. I've spoken to multiple women who have said they've never been sure about it or they've their family's been in the industry for years and the dad was a lorry driver and so on, but they didn't think that they could do it and I think actually giving them the reassurance and showing them case studies of where we've got women in logistics and where we've got women out there driving and delivering for our businesses, and using marketing campaigns to show them that is, I think crucial, and just getting a national coverage out there to say, come and join us come and get into the industry. There's work that needs to be done for sure. Pete mentions about facilities and things out there and I don't think that's an issue just for women. I think facilities in general need to... that's a wider conversation
Peter Cox
Without a shadow of a doubt.
Jack Hicks
Yeah. So, but I think the time is now and I think if women out there are thinking about getting into industry, I would just say, do it, join an employer that cares, join an employee that will work with you and we as a training school and PDT and as our agency side of the business, where we will always work with them to make sure they're welcome into the industry, for sure.
Hattie Hlad
You've touched on this throughout the conversation, but I did just want to ask, are businesses receptive and willing to work with newly qualified drivers, and how was the risk mitigated?
Jack Hicks
Okay, I think historically, that was an issue, I think, especially from talking the agency side of the business and being a recruitment agency, we were forever told, I want this much experience. I think the known number out there was I want 180 days experience in the last two years, and I want somebody that's been driving for three years minimum, and there definitely was an issue, we hear it less now than we ever have done and I think that's because businesses have understood and known that they need not just younger drivers, but newly qualified drivers into the industry as well. So I don't think it's as much of an issue. I would say that working on, I don't want to keep referring back, but working on one of my projects I'm working on, the skills boot camp, I've been overwhelmed with how much employers have actually worked with newly qualified drivers, how employers like Pete's business here, and many others have said, actually, we'll put a training module together, we'll put an academy together for these people, and welcome them into the business because they understand that that's the way forward. You know, it's open to all ages, and we're happy to take more senior drivers as well. But I think thinking about longevity and getting people in, if you're only looking to sort of take people 25 and plus, he's losing an age gap there, but I think, yeah, I mean, to answer your question, I think businesses are more open now, for younger drivers. That's easy for me to say, as an agency point of view, I'd be interested in Pete to know what sort of, for you as an employer, or how do CLEAN go about that?
Peter Cox
I've always been keen on taking younger drivers on, it's how we all start, you don't start unless you get the opportunity and when you talk about insurance, that is a challenge for a lot of businesses because the cost of insurance just keeps going up and up and up. However, it's not as much of a challenge to our insurance, we're one of those businesses to self-insure, as well. So, we are absolutely 100% committed to taking in younger drivers, newly qualified drivers. But also not just the younger drivers, but the newly qualified that have come through to the skills boot camp, or those that have decided that they're going to just change their job role or industry. I've seen and had conversations with members of our team that have come out of I.T., 12 years in I.T. and decided they want to come and drive for a living. We've had directors of companies come to us on the skills boot camp, would you believe, that want a change from what they're doing and people do see it as an opportunity and that pathway that we were talking about before as well, is absolutely ingrained in what we do. So I want people to understand that, you know, if you come into our business, for example, you know, there's no glass ceiling, and you know, you can absolutely navigate your way through if that's what you want to do.
Jack Hicks
Yeah, I think so many new drivers, they have so many other skills, I'm specifically talking about, Pete mentioned about people changing industry, I think there's a lot of people that work in different industries, that spend a lot of time on the road, they may even be in a professional capacity, where they're going to and from meetings, and they're used to driving long haul. So I think them thinking that actually, they have the stresses on top of that, which comes with those roles and I think a lot of people think to themselves, do you know what I'd quite like to be out there, I like driving, and I enjoy driving, being out on the open road, in my own space and doing that myself is something I want to do. So I think the employers do need to work with those and say, let's take on the new people because some of the skill sets that they bring from their other industries, in terms of professionalism, in terms of organisation in terms of the sort of mental side and how they put themselves in certain situations. I think it's massive. So I think it can only be a benefit, but it's something that needs doing. I think employers need to be working with newly qualified drivers and that's the only way we're going to get more into the industry.
Hattie Hlad
When going into the retention of drivers, Pete you mentioned you were a driver, how did you get to where you are today? What was the key thing?
Peter Cox
The key thing? There was a lot of key things and actually, I've got to think back a lot of years. I'm not sure my brain can go back that far! But I was lucky enough that I was working for an employer that put me through my class one. So we've almost come full circle with this because there was a time when I passed my class one the first time back in 1984. You could go from a cat B to a class one licence or a C+E as it is now. The government changed that law, brought in a new category C one as well as ensuring that you could not go straight to a class one, you had to take that step change from a car to a rigid vehicle, then on to an articulated vehicle. That's now recently changed...
Jack Hicks
Gone back to the same hasn't it.
Gone back, so it's gone full circle again. So you know, and with that, you've got a huge amount of risk that you have to manage as well. So I can only revert back to what I did when I first started, you know, you went from driving a car, or learn in a 25-foot trailer with V-series Ford on the front of it and getting out once I passed my test and on the road, it's the most frightening thing that will ever happen to you. But at the same time, the most exhilarating. But I'll go back to the fact that, you know, the employer that I was working at time must have seen something in me that allowed me to go and take my licence, and then I was on the road for 27 years, worked for a number of different companies, and eventually decided I wanted to start my own. So that's what I did, started on my own, had a load of fun doing it and I eventually sold a business and then went to work for CLEAN and I think my progression, a lot of it was self-driven. A lot of work that I did previously was off my own back. You turn yourself into a salesman, you almost become a jack of all trades and by the time I got to CLEAN, you know, they what I've got now is a whole host of experience of what I've picked up over the years.
Jack Hicks
I think what you're getting across though, and I think it is important is it's an industry that people tend to stay in. There's a lot of people, a lot of longevity in transport logistics, people who start like Pete, as a driver go into different avenues into different ventures and I think there's so many different opportunities within such a big industry to move around. So I think when we're talking about LGV, drivers and new drivers and coming into the industry and younger drivers, it doesn't mean they're going to be a driver for the next 50 years. You know, it means that actually, that's an avenue into the industry, a lot of drivers that I know have ended up going into the office and going into transport into planning, going through training to learn about that side of the business, and then going into transport managers and doing a transport management CPC and all those types of things. So I think you're right, so many people that I meet within the industry have been in it for a long time and I think, you know, I think what Pete's getting across there is there's so many different avenues you can go down I mean, for him himself to go into industry and stay in it, it goes to show, you know, sort of what's there and what can be done. I think that's what we try and say to these new drivers as well is actually yes, become a driver, come into the industry, and see where it takes you because you know, you can really go on and do so many different things in so many different avenues within transport and logistics, it's such a wide-open industry to be in.
Hattie Hlad
With retaining drivers, can you think of anything the government could do to help? What do you think the priority is?
Peter Cox
Well, certainly for me it is at the moment, the skills boot camp is great, the one that we are running is fantastic. It is absolutely about what happens next. So it's that continuous professional development with them and the government needs to fund that, in my opinion. You know, it's very, very onerous on businesses, once we've got drivers in there to continue to fund that training. So we would like to get some more assistance with funding it. The boot camp is great but we just need that little bit more because I'll go back to that part again, about the risk management part of it, you know, it's all very well getting these drivers qualified and trained, you know, we got to make sure that they're safe and I think that's the big part for me and again, you go back to retention, you know, I think, for me, I'll use an old fishing analogy all the time is where, you know, if you want to get the right people, you got to throw a lot of rods out there with some juicy fat worms on the end of the hooks. When you catch them, you've got to land them, and then you've got to keep them. So that's the analogy I always use with people, you've got to treat people, right, respect them, and treat them like the experts that they are in their field.
Jack Hicks
When we talk about retention as well, I think we spoken a lot today and I've obviously spoken a lot about newly qualified drivers, getting new drivers into the industry. But I think when you look over the last couple of years, I think we've gone through a period where actually people are more aware now of how important drivers are and I think even looking at existing drivers and drivers that are out there and even going through the whole period of being key workers and me personally, I've had family and friends and stuff here seems to take more interest in the industry and say, Oh, wow, how are your drivers doing and what are they up to? So I think that's really key as well that we need to sort of push on and make sure that that that stays and isn't forgotten, because I think from that has led to some investment and has led to the government pushing some money through to bring new drivers in, but also, those ones that we've already got is you know, just going back through, you know, the hospitals, the supermarkets when people are locked in, and they still need to get food on the shelves and they need to get medical supplies out there and the demands that were just crazy, you know, working with some of the medical and pharmaceutical companies and thinking, where are we going to get all these drivers from and how are we going to deliver this and then the drivers out there working in those environments when they've got families at home or maybe vulnerable people that they've got to think about. So I think all of those things, which I think were very hard-hitting at the time, and now possibly starting to sort of fade away a little bit in the background. I think it's about remembering that you know, it's such an important industry, these drivers are so important to us, to our country and to what we do for everyday life. So I think, try and keep that message strong market that and also make sure that, you know, we keep investing in these people and do all we can to keep them and retain them and keep them in our business.
Hattie Hlad
Yeah, they keep the country moving,
Jack Hicks
Keep the country moving, yeah.
Hattie Hlad
Exactly. What are three of your main top tips to retain a driver?
Jack Hicks
I think there's obviously an investment element, I think we need to make sure that we have regular pay reviews with them. I think the other thing, and we've reached out to our drivers, and we've spoken to them and done surveys and things as well and actually, they just want to feel valued and a lot of the drivers want to know that there's a support there, that we care, we understand that they've got families at home as well and I think anything we can do with working conditions and to make life easier, especially with those drivers we've got who are having to night out in the week and go and use these facilities, I think that's a key. So I think in terms of... I'm not sure there's three actual things to put in place, but I would say definitely ensuring that there's regular salary reviews, I think, understanding them and working with them, and investing in them for their development and then I would definitely just say the personal approach and understanding what they've got going on in life.
Peter Cox
Yeah, again, I'll repeat what I said, you know, a few times before today that the respect part of it is huge for drivers, if they don't feel respected or valued, which a lot of drivers don't, it's an issue that we've just got to stop. You know, we make a point, that the most simple thing you can do every day, is say thank you at the end of the shift, you know, we encourage our transport managers, and team leaders to ensure that they do that every single day to our drivers, because it's so important. If we don't value our people, you know, we don't deserve to keep them. If we don't respect our people, we don't deserve to keep them and somebody else will get the benefit of what we put into them. So we put a lot of work, a lot of training, a lot of effort into making sure we want to retain these people, because we absolutely do. We absolutely value them, absolute respect them. They are the professionals, they're the experts in the industry. You know, why would we not?
Jack Hicks
I think that's key, I think time, give them time. So I think we see our drivers so little, because they're out there doing the job. They're out there, like you said, being the face of the business and out there doing the delivery, I think it's very easy to forget that when a driver does come into the office or come to drop his timesheet or comes to dip his tacho card or whatever they're doing. If you see that driver, get up out your seat, go and speak to them, give them five minutes, not necessarily to say how's the job gone today, but how you doing? How's life? Everything okay? Anything we can support you with? And I know it sounds so simple, but honestly, it goes a long way and the feedback we get from drivers is that actually, that's something that doesn't happen. They're just seen as sort of a number, goes out there, delivers, comes back, doesn't speak to anybody, does their sort of clean up, gets back in the car and goes home. So I think Pete's alluded to it there, but I think that's key as well.
Hattie Hlad
Thank you, Pete and Jack. I'm sure our listeners have got some fantastic takeaways from today's conversation. I really appreciate you taking the time to share your wealth of knowledge for us today.
Peter Cox
Absolutely. My pleasure.
Jack Hicks
You're welcome.
Hattie Hlad
Running through my head right now is just thank you, thank you, thank you. What a simple way to enhance the sector for all those involved by just saying thank you. Thanks for tuning into this episode of Driven By Excellence. We hope you enjoyed listening and if you did, please don't forget to click that follow button, leave us a review or share this episode with a colleague. For more information and to keep up to date with industry news, head to our website, pdtfleettraining.co.uk