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Best Beginnings is the podcast for everyone working in or caring about the early years. Hosted by George Looker, CEO of Babyzone, each episode brings together leading researchers, clinicians, practitioners, policymakers and parents to explore the evidence, ideas and innovations shaping how we support children and families in the UK.
From infant mental health and attachment to workforce challenges and systems change, Best Beginnings goes beyond the headlines to have the conversations that matter most in early childhood.
New episodes drop every Tuesday.
Best Beginnings is brought to you by Babyzone, a national charity operating free, evidence-based family hubs across England for families with children aged 0–5.
00:00:00:03 - 00:00:23:16
Speaker 1
If you were a child at the age of five in a school and your parents stopped working and the and the school said to you, your child can no longer come to school. So the 30 hours, perhaps they can only come for 15 hours. They would be absolutely outraged at the suggestion of that. But that is exactly what we do in 30 years.
00:00:23:18 - 00:00:53:19
Speaker 2
By the time a child turns to 80% of their brain, architecture is already in place. The connections that shape how they learn, how they regulate emotions, how they form relationships. Most of that is built before they can even speak in sentences. And yet, as a society, we invest the least in the years that matter most. 1 in 4 children start school without the skills they need to thrive, not because their parents failed them, but because the system did.
00:00:53:21 - 00:01:16:22
Speaker 2
What we babies have learned from over 86,000 family visits. Is this the early years, or a time when many parents feel unsure or overwhelmed, even when things are going well? It doesn't always feel easy, but when families have the right support through play, through evidence, informed guidance, through someone simply saying what your child is doing is completely normal.
00:01:16:24 - 00:01:48:22
Speaker 2
Everything changes. I'm George and this is Best Beginnings podcast brought to you by Baby Zone about what happens in the first five years of life and why it shapes everything that comes after each week. I talk to the people who are thinking most deeply around how to give every child the best possible start. Researchers, practitioners, parents, and policymakers not to lecture you about what you should be doing, but to explore together about what actually works and what gets in the way.
00:01:48:24 - 00:02:13:13
Speaker 2
Before I came to Baby Zone, I actually worked in education policy. I sat in some of the rooms where decisions about early years were made. Funding allocations, staffing ratios and expansion targets. And I learned something that stayed with me since the people making those decisions often have no idea about what it actually feels like to run a nursery to staff a setting, or to tell a parent that your group is closing.
00:02:13:15 - 00:02:35:11
Speaker 2
My guest today does. Neil Leach leads the Early Years Alliance, the largest membership body in England, representing over 14,000 settings and 800,000 families. He's been awarded an OBE, an honorary doctorate, and he's been in more ministerial meetings that he can count. Here's what makes Neil different. He left school at 14. He grew up in poverty and spent time in care.
00:02:35:13 - 00:02:42:09
Speaker 2
So when he talks about why the first five years matter, it's not theory. It's personal. Neil, welcome to Best Beginnings.
00:02:42:09 - 00:02:44:01
Speaker 1
Thank you. Delighted to be here.
00:02:44:03 - 00:02:53:12
Speaker 2
I thank you so much for your time. And I guess before we dive in, could you tell us a little bit about your role that the Early Years Alliance and what brought you to focus on the early, early years?
00:02:53:14 - 00:03:17:20
Speaker 1
I think I became involved by extensively on this time. I used to be in finance. I chaired the finance Industry Standards Association, which endeavored to regulate second mortgage lending. And I tell people that I think I developed a moral compass, and I got out of it actually in my second week of coming out of it, because practices at that particular point in time were pretty poor, to say the least.
00:03:17:22 - 00:03:45:15
Speaker 1
I was introduced as a volunteer to what was then the Preschool Learning Alliance, and gradually got roped in more and more and more. I had no idea that to this day I would be doing what I'm doing. But there is an affinity in terms of wanting to support particularly the most disadvantaged and vulnerable children. And it aligns, I think, with perhaps some of the experiences I had as child, but more importantly, the opportunities that I would.
00:03:45:20 - 00:04:05:02
Speaker 1
I think I was given that, frankly, my my siblings, not all of my siblings were. And I saw the difference between, I guess, where they became potentially a product of the environment. But I had love and attachment of my mother, which I think gave me a good, a good cornerstone to progress.
00:04:05:07 - 00:04:24:14
Speaker 2
It's amazing coin. And. Yeah. So you sort of said attributing your success, not, you know, early intervention from an academic perspective, but from your mum. And, you know, her love and attachment in a policy world that so obsessed with attainment, gaps in school readiness. How do we convince the Treasury that it's that love that's the most important thing?
00:04:24:14 - 00:04:28:22
Speaker 2
And, you know, how can we make then measure that as a vital economic foundation?
00:04:28:24 - 00:05:02:14
Speaker 1
I think that's the massive challenge because, of course, by its nature, Treasury is fiscal in every conversation I have. We never talk about parents carers. We never talk about children. We talk about return on investment, GDP, etc.. And I think what it really takes is somebody in Treasury to have a had some experience of what it's like to be a struggling family, what it's like to just be a parent in today's sort of environment, and then also to have a vision that goes beyond a term of office.
00:05:02:14 - 00:05:27:20
Speaker 1
In other words, look at where do we want to be in ten, 15, 25, 30 years and make decisions that aren't specifically about their term of office, but about this nation, about people, about the world, frankly. If you've got that, then I think we'd be making different decisions. And I guess part of my role is to endeavor to convince people that they should concentrate on those aspects.
00:05:27:20 - 00:05:44:16
Speaker 1
And I've said this before, that I think there's little value in having some of the brightest sparks in the world, the biggest earners in the world, if they do not hold kindness. I want to get on a bus. I want to sit on a train next to a kind, gentle person. When somebody's struggling to get on or off, they stand up.
00:05:44:16 - 00:05:56:20
Speaker 1
I don't care how much they're earning, I don't care what their profession is. So I think my challenge and others have to have the same, I think, opportunity to meet with Treasury and try and convince them otherwise.
00:05:56:22 - 00:06:16:08
Speaker 2
I've got three kids under the age of five. So that sort of kindness thing is something that I try and think about the whole time and. Yeah, so important. But it's it's hard, isn't it? And these reforms, what you talk about on a daily basis to policymakers and to the people with the checkbooks, it's a really hard kind of conversation to have.
00:06:16:08 - 00:06:30:09
Speaker 2
And I guess, you know, that intergenerational social contract that, you know, sort of we're setting these children up. We're setting the next generation up for success. Why do you think it's been so hard? Why do you think there's been such a lack of continuity in long term thinking?
00:06:30:11 - 00:06:49:18
Speaker 1
I think the focus has been on it has predominantly been on, you know, higher education, further education, higher education, secretary of education. And I don't think despite the fact that all the evidence and you've alluded to this yourself, that all the evidence shows that the first five years of a child's life are absolutely critical in shaping their life chances.
00:06:49:18 - 00:07:10:13
Speaker 1
But I think historically, we sort of ignored that. When I say we I don't think I have, but I do think there are some colleagues within government historically that have chosen to ignore it and just focused on the economics rather than, well, where do we want our nation to be? I mean, there is no value as I say, in creating, you know, monetary wealth.
00:07:10:13 - 00:07:29:12
Speaker 1
If you can't walk out in the streets and be safe. And so that's why I think focusing on things like social, emotional development, kindness, gentleness, love, those soft words that don't fit into a GCSE category. It's critical, absolutely critical for life.
00:07:29:14 - 00:07:47:02
Speaker 2
And we'll come back to that in terms of some of what Baby's Own is exploring and how we're trying to help those parents with those types of concepts and some of our own programs that we're rolling out across our hubs. You know, I guess the biggest debate that's been kind of in the public domain over the course of the last few years is all about childcare.
00:07:47:04 - 00:08:15:21
Speaker 2
And thinking about the funding, that it's going to the free childcare hours that we hear a lot about. I think you've called that a misnomer in the past, whether it be free and then and the sort of national fund funding decisions, how do we make that show up in a nursery and help them stay open and help them thrive and do some of the things that you've been talking about, rather than just function as, as a shop for for children to come in and out every day.
00:08:15:23 - 00:08:41:14
Speaker 1
It's interesting when I talk to educators who do the work on the front line, and you ask them why they came into the sector, they don't use words like, you know, return in investment. I can earn a fortune. Career progression. They use soft words like love, care, gentleness. And so goodwill is right at the fore. But what we've had over recent years is we've exhausted that goodwill.
00:08:41:16 - 00:09:03:22
Speaker 1
And when I talk to people and we did a survey actually within the alliance as to why people are leaving the sector, we asked them to three reasons. Give us three reasons why you're leaving. Despite the fact that my colleagues are at the bottom of the pile when it comes to earnings, and almost every single year I appear in front of the Low Pay Commission to explain why it is that our people are paid such lowly salaries.
00:09:03:24 - 00:09:31:23
Speaker 1
Number one seven I'll never forget these figures, but 77% said it was because they felt undervalued and particularly by government, because if government views it as very, little more than, let's say, ensuring that a child is safe throughout the day and not about education and development, then they feel basically that they are overlooked. 72% said it was down to exhaustion and stress.
00:09:31:23 - 00:09:56:06
Speaker 1
And that's because in the earlier sector, we have struggled for many years actually to recruit and retain people. So of course they're having to work extra hours. We're seeing more and more children, dare I say, come into settings with social and emotional development needs. And then right at the bottom of the poll, around 5,057% said it was down to salaries.
00:09:56:08 - 00:10:20:11
Speaker 1
And so I think until we get the government that is honest in terms of how it views the earlier sector, we won't get the funding that we need because they won't view it as true education. I find it really interesting if you go into any search engine and you type in one of the most respected professions in the world, teachers will always appear in the top ten.
00:10:20:13 - 00:10:45:16
Speaker 1
Unfortunately, politicians are right at the bottom, but teachers will always appear in the top ten. And when I last looked at that, it was interesting that there was a graphic within The Sun newspaper that was high. It was headed the the 20 jobs that nobody wants to do. Right in the middle was early years practitioner. And yet we come back to the point.
00:10:45:18 - 00:11:15:22
Speaker 1
First five years are absolutely critical in shaping their life chances, but we view it as care, not child development, not education. And I think until we get people recognizing the importance of that, that's why we will struggle. That's why I struggle to get significant change. And I would also just add this final point. I think there's been mass dishonesty in terms of the Department for education in terms of its funding.
00:11:15:24 - 00:11:37:03
Speaker 1
So it sounds like a long time ago, but you'll see the relevance of it. Back in 2018, when we were sort of tired of hearing the government tell us there's enough money in the system, don't know what your problem is. Stop complaining. We said, well, if you think there's enough money in the system, shows you figures, go away.
00:11:37:05 - 00:11:59:08
Speaker 1
So we did a freedom of information request. Took us two and a half years to get that information. And you'll probably recognize why it would have taken two and a half years in a moment. Right. Because when the Information Commissioner's Office ruled in our favor and say it's unreasonable, give them the data. The Department for education said this is said to adequately fund the sector.
00:11:59:08 - 00:12:33:16
Speaker 1
For a three and four year old, we'd have to pay them an hourly rate in 2021, a 7.49 pounds per hour. They specifically put a figure on it, move it on to 26 now, which had double digit inflation at times. We've had the wonderful Liz Truss budget, the energy costs today we get on average around 5.60 pounds. And so they knew that they were grossly underfunding the sector, which means they knew they were holding back the people that work in the sector.
00:12:33:18 - 00:12:56:05
Speaker 1
And they were also they also said that we would have to increase our prices by around 30% to those parents who did not get the entitlement offers. That's dishonest. And so that shows you the respect that they have for early years or had for early years. That was education in schools and a five year old or a six year old.
00:12:56:07 - 00:13:00:05
Speaker 1
I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be the same case.
00:13:00:07 - 00:13:21:01
Speaker 2
Yeah. I mean, it's, it's been a hard negotiation. I know that you've been at the forefront of advocating for those early years professionals and practitioners. And I'm sure they're all enormously grateful for the work that you do. And I remember I was reading that report you were saying around, you know, why the sector is struggling to recruit and retain.
00:13:21:03 - 00:13:33:14
Speaker 2
And one of the, practitioner quotes I found. So they want to be respected as a highly educated professional, rather than someone who makes Play-Doh you. And that was something that kind of resonated as someone that quite often has trauma. It played a weekend.
00:13:33:16 - 00:13:52:14
Speaker 1
Well, somebody put a tweet up, which I thought was just summed it up a tweet. I say it was, you know, I'm using Twitter as opposed to X going back a little while, but they said, want to play all day long, go to pulse, come and work. In early years. And of course it was a sarcastic remark, but clearly that's how they felt.
00:13:52:17 - 00:13:57:18
Speaker 1
No, I don't believe that a teacher in a primary school would have those views.
00:13:57:20 - 00:14:24:12
Speaker 2
So how do we flip that switch? How do we make the change and advocate for the profession in a different way? How do we get policymakers and the people that write the checks, but also ourselves as parents or as people within the ecosystem, to really appreciate and acknowledge the work that I say in baby zones, all of my the team that run those different settings, the teams that work with them, the incredibly hard working, you know, class leaders that we have.
00:14:24:18 - 00:14:32:17
Speaker 2
And they deserve to be respected. They deserve to be empowered and put on a pedestal. How do we make that switch? What do you think needs to change?
00:14:32:23 - 00:14:51:15
Speaker 1
Well, I think there is hope. I mean, everything I've said so far has been a pretty negative position, but I do think there is hope. For the first time ever, we have a Secretary of State for education that I can recall in all the time I've been involved in early years. Who has said that the early years are our number one priority?
00:14:51:17 - 00:15:11:00
Speaker 1
So that is a good starting point. We have a strategy. We have the best start in life strategy. That was released recently and that has really strong good intentions, particularly for the most vulnerable, deprived families. So I have to believe that there is hope.
00:15:11:02 - 00:15:43:06
Speaker 1
The challenge will be to convert that rhetoric into reality. And so every government that has been the challenge, you know, so the sort of the calls for more investment, etc., etc. from the sector, they have to be backed by somebody actually doing something about it. And you said something earlier, which was about really working in an environment where perhaps people did not have the knowledge, so they were responsible for developing policy, but they did not have the knowledge to develop it.
00:15:43:08 - 00:16:05:22
Speaker 1
And it was really interesting because it's still there. If you if you dig really deeply into the Department of Education's website, there is a five point plan that they created several years ago, which policy formers should look at before they basically conclude what that policy should be. And the two that really stuck out to me was one, will it work?
00:16:06:00 - 00:16:33:11
Speaker 1
Because of course, that is pretty important. But the most important one said, who made you the expert? And so a government that engages with the people that know what they're doing, more importantly listens, because we had engagement on the last consultation on the change to ratios where the parents were opposed to it. In terms of two year olds, parents were opposed to it, educators were opposed to it.
00:16:33:13 - 00:16:56:08
Speaker 1
Everybody was opposed to it. Even in the, documentation, when they release the outcome of the consultation, they had to say there was overwhelming opposition to it, but they ignored it, and they just went ahead and change the end of the child ratios. So consultation in isolation is nothing unless basically it's listened to. But who made you the specialist?
00:16:56:10 - 00:17:03:16
Speaker 1
Consult with the people that basically know what they're doing, know what the challenges are, and their parents as much as educators.
00:17:03:18 - 00:17:34:12
Speaker 2
I think that's that's exactly right. And, you know, as a parent, we're all really thirsty for information, for reassurance. We're doing the right thing, babies. And we talk a lot about parental confidence and how to imbue parents with that sense of they're doing the right things when they're trying their hardest and supporting them on that journey so that their children can thrive, and so that they can be part of a community of people that they exist with and enjoy the experience of being a parent as well, rather than sort of constantly being told, we should be doing this or we expect you to be doing that.
00:17:34:12 - 00:17:59:08
Speaker 2
So it's forming that conversation and realizing that every child is different, every family has a different scenario, and it has a different life that they're leading. Yet we're told what a good level of development means. We're told, you know, that they need to be counting to 100 or naming all of the planets or whatever the specifics might be, of any, any minister at the time was, you know, potentially you think it should be about kindness and empathy.
00:17:59:10 - 00:18:08:18
Speaker 2
How do we measure that, though? What do you think the right measure is for a good level of development or being school ready, as opposed to perhaps what we already are tasking our children against?
00:18:08:23 - 00:18:31:02
Speaker 1
Well, I just preempt that by saying that I do think the parents are under enormous pressure at this point in time. I mean, I was fortunate enough when I was growing up, rightly or wrongly, it was accepted that you could survive on one salary almost if and you could probably buy a home on one salary. Frankly. Now I talk to parents who are exhausted, absolutely exhausted.
00:18:31:02 - 00:18:51:06
Speaker 1
I was asked by the chairman of a large supermarket, I'm going back a few years, but I think it's relevant. If I would give a talk at one of their conferences, I think it was their annual conference, and I said, what on? And he said, how we can get more mums back into the working environment at an earlier point in time.
00:18:51:08 - 00:19:17:23
Speaker 1
And I said, well, I'll, I'll do it, but I need to talk to these parents basically, and I'll never forget the figure. I spoke to 42 mums. Nearly every single one of them said they would change the pattern in which they had to return to work. Many and I could, you know, I would probably say most at some points in those discussions ended up in tears because they would say they'd come home in the evening.
00:19:18:00 - 00:19:42:00
Speaker 1
They spent such a little window with their child because they were exhausted having to make tea. Whatever it happens to be, they buy the most sweets. They would buy, the more toys they would miss. All of those wonderful moments. And I think with all this school readiness agenda, we have to be really careful that we're not basically pitting parents against teachers.
00:19:42:06 - 00:20:11:12
Speaker 1
Of course, it's important that children reach a good level of development because for everything that we've said before, if they fail to do it, their life chances will be marked out in a negative way. 40% of a child's educational attainment is baked in by the age of five. UCL just did some research that shows that 50% of poor of those children who had poor GCSE results were identified at the age of five as basically being behind.
00:20:11:14 - 00:20:51:00
Speaker 1
So it's important, but it has to go hand in hand with allowing children to be children and parents to be parents, and they don't all develop simultaneously. That's why, you know, I said this the other day in a TV interview. That's why one is called Janet and one is called Julian. You know, the different. Absolutely all different. So a good lesson development for me is concentrate first of all on social and emotional development, because if you have a child that is hungry to discover, to learn, wants to engage, wants to share, the rest will follow.
00:20:51:02 - 00:21:14:07
Speaker 1
In my life, I have never read a book for pleasure ever. Because as a child and not my mum's problem, because of her circumstances and when I was a care home, I'm pretty sure they were done busy and all the rest of it. But because I was never read, to never engage with them, basically as an adult, I don't read books for pleasure.
00:21:14:09 - 00:21:44:22
Speaker 1
I need I read enough documents from various departments, but not for pleasure. I can't help feeling that if I had been stronger socially and emotionally as a little child, then the rest would have followed. The rest would have followed. I would have had that hunger to discover and to engage. So, I'm not sure I answered how the perfect parent should look, because I don't think there is a perfect parent.
00:21:44:22 - 00:22:06:22
Speaker 1
What I am absolutely certain of is many parents are desperate for support and help and school readiness, and what comes forward should be a guide for them. It shouldn't be us. Being dictates us to say your child is a failure. If they haven't reached this particular point in this particular area at a given point in time.
00:22:06:24 - 00:22:26:22
Speaker 2
What we find a lot of the physical babies are locations, but also some of the interactions we have with parents via WhatsApp communities and various other channels that they can get in touch is your point? Exactly. They're sort of trying to understand where that child should be, but also help them regulate themselves, help them when they're struggling with routines.
00:22:26:22 - 00:22:48:14
Speaker 2
And how can you find a child that is resilient to change? And what are these different, challenges that are thrown at them? They live in a very fast changing world, and, you know, things can be unsettling and uncertain. So for parents to be able to have the confidence that doing the right thing as everything else is moving around them, we hear a lot from parents that they find that incredibly difficult.
00:22:48:14 - 00:23:13:20
Speaker 2
And some of the work that we're trying to do in baby zones is working with different, partners. We have over 260 different partners across our, eight hubs that are open at the moment. And whether that be, you know, local NHS, healthcare visitor teams or midwifery teams or just other early years professionals that we're able to talk to, it's helping navigate that kind of coalition of different people that are all trying their best.
00:23:13:20 - 00:23:39:03
Speaker 2
But maybe they don't speak to each other regularly enough, or it's hard to find out when people might have a time that works for them and, they can all come together. Which is why, we think the babies are not all trying to bring all these people under one roof. As I said, a one stop shop, as it were, for parents without barriers, without having to fill in loads of forms or provide lots of information about their family background and circumstances is the way forward.
00:23:39:03 - 00:24:06:04
Speaker 2
So, and that's what really excites us about our growth plans. Okay. So I want to come back to one of the things you were talking about and also one of, your trustee at the Food Foundation as well, and, you know, reading something around over a million children or eating in different childcare settings and the reality of food poverty as well, and helping children from a developmental standpoint and everything else and making sure they're nourished, not just intellectually, but also in their tummies.
00:24:06:06 - 00:24:17:13
Speaker 2
How do you feel about combining all that sort of making sure that there's all of those different parts of the ecosystem are talking to each other and working together to support children and support families?
00:24:17:15 - 00:24:39:07
Speaker 1
It is a challenge. So I have to say, I mean, we have a situation where, for example, in some of our settings, we operate, 27 settings exclusively in areas of deprivation. And it is fair to say no. Every parent in those settings, you know.
00:24:39:09 - 00:25:10:08
Speaker 1
Is living in poverty. But there's a there are a disproportionate number of families that are. And when I have witnessed and I witnessed this firsthand, I went into a nursery very early in the morning, and I saw a little child going through the rucksacks that were on the various hooks, stealing food out of the rucksacks. They're not stealing kitkats and biscuits or sweets, stealing cheese sandwiches and items like that.
00:25:10:10 - 00:25:13:15
Speaker 1
Something tells you.
00:25:13:17 - 00:25:37:15
Speaker 1
We have a lack of equity in the way in which we think about nutrition for our youngest children, compared to maybe primary school age children. When I have a situation where one of our staff members is taking food from the kitchen and putting it into the rucksack of a child so his family can eat in the evening, we have a problem.
00:25:37:17 - 00:26:11:17
Speaker 1
When I'm in a nursery and I see a mum in the corner crying, arise! And I ask the manager why? Why is she upset? Because she's just spent her entire daily food allocation on a travel card. Something is fundamentally wrong with what we do, and I do find it difficult to understand how the current government can herald breakfast clubs in schools, etc., etc. and we come back to it's a first five years of that critical.
00:26:11:19 - 00:26:37:23
Speaker 1
How can you ever allow a situation where child could arrive in an early years setting hungry, or with a poor lunch because their parents cannot afford to pay? Because the government does not subsidize lunches in early years settings. So you may think that you have 30 hours of free entitlement, but as a parent, that is not a it's not adequately funded.
00:26:37:23 - 00:26:58:18
Speaker 1
I will tell you that. So that all the reasons I said earlier. And then secondly, government expressly says it doesn't take care of trips, food, nappies, sunscreen, whatever it happens to be and the families are likely to be hit by that more than anyone other more vulnerable, deprived families.
00:26:58:20 - 00:27:27:00
Speaker 1
In a world where we are one of the still one of the richest countries, it feels just alien. When you know we're talking about. Tax bills from individuals into literally the multi, multi millions. It just feels like the distribution of wealth could be better. And the way in which we treat the most vulnerable could be better as well.
00:27:27:02 - 00:27:54:22
Speaker 1
I don't buy the fact when people tell me, well that's their parents, they can't do this or they haven't done this, etc., etc. so that has absolutely nothing to do with a child. My father was an alcoholic. He was an awful wife abuser, one of six children. We were all put into the care home. How is that the fault of my mum who was desperate, solely reliant on him to try and care for his and gave the best that she possibly could?
00:27:54:22 - 00:28:05:20
Speaker 1
I would suggest so. I don't think we should be that judgmental, but we should be incredibly supportive and particularly when it impacts children.
00:28:05:22 - 00:28:29:20
Speaker 2
It's a very powerful story and, you know, it's amazing what you've been doing over 18 years, she said earlier. We try it. Babies and obviously to try to make sure that our settings are barriers that parents can access them. There's no sign ups to classes. You can come and go freely and there's no stigma or shame associated with being there all day versus just coming in for one class and leaving.
00:28:30:01 - 00:28:46:19
Speaker 2
We try and obviously I hope that they spend time with other moms, dads, carers so that they can spend a part of the community of the early years and be alongside their peers and form friendships and help their children also socialize and do some of that development. You you were touching on those critical.
00:28:46:19 - 00:29:10:04
Speaker 1
I've got to say. Also, I think that's absolutely critical because that's how the Early Years Alliance started over 60 years ago, was a group of mums coming together at one mum in a in an apartment, single mum in an apartment, had their daughter's birthday, she had no friends to play with and she ran down the stairs. She thought she saw a friendly face with another little girl and said, you know, will you come to the birthday party?
00:29:10:06 - 00:29:36:22
Speaker 1
The whole interaction with other people that share your challenges, your frustrations, etc., as opposed to somebody that might be lecturing you about, you know, lecturing to you about what your child should be doing at this point in time and why they might be a failure if they're not. It's about balance. Come back to the point, of course, it's important that children are school ready, but how we do it is is how we support families is critical as well.
00:29:37:02 - 00:29:55:04
Speaker 1
But that informal, I guess it's a long winded way of trying, I know, digressed, my apologies, but it was a long winded way of trying to say to you, the ability to be able to talk to somebody is not going to judge you and say, mine doesn't sleep all night long, you know, or you know how can only delete the lecture.
00:29:55:08 - 00:30:03:10
Speaker 1
But but school or with a child minder, but he won't eat the things at home. You know, it's just.
00:30:03:12 - 00:30:29:16
Speaker 2
Now very familiar with that. I social you all sorts of reports are saying, oh, we ate here for lunch and then it gets home. Nothing gets thrown on the floor. But I guess, you know, to your point, we're trying to bring these families together. We see a lot of families that work or struggling with isolation, post-natal depression, and trying to form a cohesive society and a collection of support infrastructure that they can rely on.
00:30:29:22 - 00:30:47:22
Speaker 2
Why do you think that doesn't exist? Why is that been taken away or how can we make sure that there is that infrastructure around families that need it most in the first three months, first six months of a newborn's life? Mum, dad, the other people around them feel supported.
00:30:47:24 - 00:31:22:24
Speaker 1
I think first of all, in terms of supportive agencies might have been around 20 years ago. We've seen the diminution of colleagues working in health, etc., etc. and so what's happened is to traditional support that they might have gotten the frequency of support that they might have got has drastically changed. I think when you look at the statistics of family, in terms of grandparents and older grandparents having to to to work longer and longer and longer, so that sort of family network I think has has diminished as well.
00:31:23:01 - 00:31:30:22
Speaker 1
And then I come back to this point that if you take the new entitlement program.
00:31:30:24 - 00:31:59:14
Speaker 1
It is predominantly about getting people back into work, and it's predominantly about getting mothers back into work. And so I've touched on it before, but this whole thing about parents under are under immense pressure. You know, I find it interesting that my my eldest boy is 63 years of age. He's him and his, his, his wife still have to work.
00:31:59:16 - 00:32:03:12
Speaker 1
They start to pay the mortgage.
00:32:03:14 - 00:32:27:00
Speaker 1
We have we live in a world where those financial pressures are. And so I don't think and so you if you take that and then at the same time you remove the infrastructure that was in place, it's inevitable that something has to give. And we're pushing parents back into work. You know, faster and faster than ever before. I would suggest.
00:32:27:02 - 00:32:49:17
Speaker 2
We have to try to be as universal as possible. Babies own. We don't turn anyone away. We make sure that our doors are open, as welcoming as possible for everyone in society, across the communities that we operate in, because we know that for every child doesn't matter about their parents education status or employment status. Those first few years are when the neurological connections are made.
00:32:49:20 - 00:33:14:01
Speaker 2
It's when the most important parts of their development are taking place. That universality isn't shared necessarily across the ecosystem. You spoke about the 30 years funding, 30, 30 hours funding. Commitment earlier. How would you shape that policy so that it's more universal or ensures that every child gets the benefit or support that they need?
00:33:14:03 - 00:33:41:16
Speaker 1
Well, first of all, I have to say, I think it's fundamentally flawed because if you happen to be a child where your parents aren't working, can't work, even in some instances perhaps decide that they won't work. That has absolutely nothing to do with a child, and I find it incredibly interesting. If you were a child at the age of five in a school and your parents stopped working and the and the school said to you, your child can no longer come to school.
00:33:41:17 - 00:34:09:13
Speaker 1
So the 30 hours, perhaps they can only come for 15 hours. They would be absolutely outraged at the suggestion of that. But that is exactly what we do in early years. And you would argue, actually, that some of the most vulnerable children whose parents cannot work won't work. Well, maybe there's not an entitlement. The very children that do not receive access to early years care, education and development.
00:34:09:15 - 00:34:39:03
Speaker 1
Why would we do that when every child basically deserves the right to a future? The whole best start in life strategy from the government is about giving every child the opportunity, the opportunity to progress. Every child has talent, but not every child has opportunity. And this program of bias towards working parents, and I understand the economics of it, and I know it support great support for those parents at working.
00:34:39:05 - 00:34:54:04
Speaker 1
But if you're thinking about the child, you would have every child with the equal opportunity to be educated, developed to share, to discover not just those where their parents are working. It's crazy.
00:34:54:05 - 00:35:01:02
Speaker 2
So I think I know the answer to this. If you were early years minister or the Chancellor for a day, what would you do? How would you change things?
00:35:01:04 - 00:35:26:04
Speaker 1
It'd be a universal offer. I would ensure that all the evidence that we already have that shows the biggest return on human capital investment is when you invest. In the early years, I would be brave enough to say I'm not just looking at my four years, of my five years in terms of office. I'm more concerned whether we still are on this planet in 200 years time, and we have kind, empathetic people who want to do the best.
00:35:26:06 - 00:35:38:03
Speaker 1
I would invest in universal office. I would make sure that the early years is prioritized, that it is part of the education system, and then we'd have a wonderful world.
00:35:38:05 - 00:36:00:24
Speaker 2
I love it, and for parents, what would you say to them? What is the recommendation or the worldview that you'd love to share with parents as they're going around? That's the struggle every day of bringing up young children in the UK in 2026. Advice or guidance that perhaps you might share?
00:36:01:01 - 00:36:35:01
Speaker 1
I would say, don't despair. None of this, none of this is easy. It is tough. There is no manual that says this is what you do with your child. You have three children. They're all different, aren't they? And I'm sure you have to adopt and and engage, etc. firstly, don't give up. Secondly, reach out. Reach out. If you're in an earlier setting, reach out to people that are in that setting because they have dealt with just about every eventuality, every set of circumstances, and they should be there and they will be there to help you.
00:36:35:03 - 00:37:05:02
Speaker 1
So that's the second thing that I would do. And I guess the third thing I would say is sometimes make some tough decisions and prioritize what's important. I think there's a saying that sort of says the best toy that you can give a child is your time. And so look at your lifestyle, perhaps, and it's very easy for me to say when you've got a mortgage to pay and you've got to pay, you know, or you've got the rent to pay, you've got to run the car.
00:37:05:02 - 00:37:08:01
Speaker 1
Whatever happens to be.
00:37:08:03 - 00:37:19:12
Speaker 1
But you only get one chance at this. And at the moment there's a lot going against parents spin being at success.
00:37:19:14 - 00:37:22:00
Speaker 1
And they can play a part. They can play a part.
00:37:22:04 - 00:37:46:23
Speaker 2
Absolutely. I mean, parents are vital to make sure that their children can thrive, that they're happy and healthy. And we need to make sure we're supporting parents. I'm going to make them, be interested in, you know, you spoke about your career path. Your life story is just fascinating. Now, what would you say to you if your 14 year old self right now, kind of looking back over the progress that you've seen, but also the challenges that you've seen as well?
00:37:46:23 - 00:37:54:09
Speaker 2
Is there anything that you would yeah, like to think back on. Yeah. Advice that you chat to your younger self.
00:37:54:11 - 00:38:12:16
Speaker 1
My problem has been that my children have always said, well, you left school without any qualifications and you did okay, so everything is going to be fine. I think if it was about me, I would say in an odd way.
00:38:12:18 - 00:38:17:04
Speaker 1
I'm happy with where I am actually.
00:38:17:06 - 00:38:25:14
Speaker 1
But I wish I was more educated in as much as.
00:38:25:16 - 00:38:35:02
Speaker 1
I had a better foundation. Perhaps I'd be brighter and smarter than where I am now, but I'm not unhappy with where I am now.
00:38:35:04 - 00:38:46:03
Speaker 1
I probably would have made the I think I probably make the most of it. I always say to my children, I don't care whether you.
00:38:46:05 - 00:39:00:10
Speaker 1
Want to cut trees or be an investment banker, but I want you to have choices, and I want you to be happy, and I want you to be happy above anything else.
00:39:00:12 - 00:39:18:12
Speaker 2
And it's creating that world where parents do have choices, where children do have choices. And you sort of yeah, spreading that opportunity, I think is a really powerful message. And thank you, Neal. What is the quality that you most value in an early practitioner desire.
00:39:18:14 - 00:39:39:19
Speaker 1
And desire to and I'm not ashamed to use the words love, care, support. But children and parents and if you haven't got the desire and all the technical stuff can go out the door. Real education starts in the heart.
00:39:39:21 - 00:39:48:17
Speaker 1
And so you've got to have a heart that wants to basically lend itself to all the academic side of things and all of the other experiences.
00:39:48:19 - 00:39:54:03
Speaker 2
And I read somewhere that you wanted to be a Beatle as a child. Do you still play?
00:39:54:05 - 00:40:18:03
Speaker 1
I do, I played, actually as a very young man. I was in I was in a group with, I must have been about 15, 16 and I was old. I was offered a recording contract, and this is going to sound really egotistic, but they offered me it was a risk, the records and not the band. And how stupid I was in the right.
00:40:18:03 - 00:40:34:10
Speaker 1
Because I said no, if you don't take the band, you're not having me. I probably would have been a big failure anyway. But regardless, yeah, I still played guitar, saxophone, little bit of keyboards and and really sent everybody out of the house. When I do so.
00:40:34:12 - 00:40:56:15
Speaker 2
I love it. No, that's great onus. Yeah, music is so important and that's something I spend a lot of time listening to music school music with my kids as well. If you remember one thing, the early years matter enormously, but you don't have to do it alone or have it all figured out yourself. Neil, thank you so much for joining me, and thank you for listening to the Best Beginnings Baby Zone podcast.
00:40:56:17 - 00:41:07:02
Speaker 2
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