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Students share honest dialogue about love, relationships, dating, and sex on Michigan State University's campus.
But yeah. That's a
Elle:quick recap on you getting Mike's name wrong. It was funny for me because, like, there's this is a scientific fact about cross racial identification is that it is harder for people to identify those who aren't their race because we're more used to seeing differences between facial features of people who, like, look like us. So there's a lot of, you know, microaggressions of, like, oh, white people thinking all black people look the same or specifically white people thinking all east Asian people look the same. You get the idea. So you getting his name wrong was very funny because it was like a
Shakyra:Yeah. I get what you're saying.
Elle:It was like a reversal of that idea. Like, I was like, wow. So you think he looks like a Mike? Like, do you think all white people look the same? It's hilarious.
Elle:It's like when I introduced you and, Samaya to my dad, and he he was like, Samira? Like Yeah. He got our My dad does not watch this too.
Shakyra:I think he got our names mixed up or something. No.
Elle:He I had just introduced I was like, dad, this is my friend Shakira, and this is my friend Samaya Samaya. And he was like, Samira? Like, he just kinda combined them. Not from, like, a he didn't wanna learn way.
Shakyra:It just just
Elle:be, I feel like
Shakyra:It was just really funny. I really like your dad, by
Elle:the way.
Shakyra:He's really nice. My dad is really nice.
Anthony:It's not a Mr. Frohn.
Elle:It's not
Anthony:a Mr. Frohn.
Elle:He just got a new phone.
Shakyra:Oh, nice. Oh. Heavy phone. Right.
Elle:I don't know. He's been overdue. His his old phone had, like, the home button. Oh. Right?
Elle:And you Wait. I clicked
Shakyra:the home button.
Elle:He could be, like, it's a company phone. I'm glad I'm happy to have
Shakyra:it. You know, sign with a chat. Do y'all prefer the face ID or the, like, the touchpad? Touch the
Anthony:home button. Because
Elle:you can add other people. Like, I'm directionally challenged. And if we're going somewhere and I don't wanna grab my phone, I'm like Yeah. Just do it. Phone.
Elle:I'm like, somebody else open my phone. So yeah. That's the story of the mic thing. I'm still with my partner. Anthony's in a new relationship.
Shakyra:And I am single. Happily single.
Anthony:Ready to mingle?
Elle:Yes. Not really.
Anthony:Not ready to mingle? Okay.
Elle:Not not really.
Anthony:Listen. Keep your peace. Keep your peace. But one of the main topics that we wanted to talk about is, like we mentioned, what does it mean to be a woman? And shout out Ariana Grande.
Anthony:God is
Elle:a woman.
Anthony:God. But, I'm sorry.
Shakyra:I'm sorry. I love Ariana Grande. No.
Elle:We were singing so much on last episode on the last episode that it made me realize I now have a new, like, worst fear. And that's people I went to middle school with discovering this podcast because I was kind of a menace. And if you knew me in middle school, I am sorry Duh. For so many of the things that I did. Because, like, I don't think I was a bad person, but I think I was just, like, 13.
Elle:You know? And, like, when you were 13, I was deep in my Hamilton phase. Like, it was just Yeah.
Shakyra:You was just that that kid.
Elle:I like picking up I like starting arguments just to start arguments, just for chaos sake. But I did get voted songbird because I was I did not wanna, shut the heck up. So me singing, like, I feel like if people I went to middle school with discovered it, they would be like, here she go. You know?
Shakyra:She used to sing a lot. It was so annoying. But she got a pretty voice.
Elle:No. And I can't sing.
Shakyra:It's just No. It was irritating.
Elle:So Yeah. If you went to middle school with me, aside from the people I'm still friends with from my middle school, hey. But if you went to middle school with me and you just are discovering this and you're like, that's what she's up to? Yes. It is.
Elle:Hello. Welcome. Stay alive. Stay alive.
Anthony:And this is
Elle:only Yeah. Not as much.
Anthony:The tip of the iceberg of what you've done. I mean, an incredible editor, great writer. I mean, listen, shout out. So I feel like if they do see you from middle school, they'd see just they'd see the beginning of your greatness and greatness.
Shakyra:Period.
Elle:Oh, you guys, thank you.
Anthony:No problem at all. I
Shakyra:so I'll
Elle:tell you guys the story later. It has to do with me doing this Mhmm. And how often I do it. Doug.
Shakyra:I think I'm
Elle:someone who does that for
Shakyra:you because I've been doing it lately.
Elle:Our friends and I, we weren't doing impressions of each other. We were talking about our mannerisms. And my friend went, every time I picture you, I can picture you doing this. I was like and then what's crazy is as I was sitting there, I was wanting to do it. So how do we identify?
Elle:We're gonna go through some questions. So the first idea here is, how do we identify as women internally? How does that differ between women? Is there one feminine identity? Probably not.
Elle:And if not, what are some characteristics that different ideas of womanhood shale? So if you asked a bunch of women, what does it mean to be a woman to you? What are some things you might find in that? Like, what are some common things you might find?
Shakyra:For me,
Elle:internally? Internally. So not in regards to
Shakyra:Yeah. Like textbook definitions and stuff like that. I got it. So So being a woman to me, it's about I don't know. It's about basically being true to yourself.
Shakyra:Be sweet, be calm, you know, be I don't know. I guess soft for me at least, not for everybody else. I don't speak for everybody else. And it's like yeah.
Elle:I have thought about this a lot, obviously, throughout my life, but also
Shakyra:I'm just a girl.
Elle:I'm sorry. I just have to put that in a case. I think I think I'm just a girl was a fun phrase when it started.
Shakyra:But it's like, now it's not
Elle:a new one.
Shakyra:They overused it. Like, they don't even use it right. I don't know.
Elle:Like, you'll you'll check somebody on, like, a behavior that isn't acceptable or them not being educated on something they should be educated on. Yeah. And they'll be like, I'm just a girl. Girl feel it. It gives, like I don't know.
Elle:It gives infantilization almost. Mhmm. Mhmm. So how do I identify as women internally? I've thought about this a lot.
Elle:I find that womanhood to me is very much like a strength of mine. It's something I have never personally obviously, I I've never questioned my own sense of womanhood or my own gender identity because we're gonna talk about little bit about this later. But I think everybody should have a complicated or everyone should examine their own gender. I think questioning your gender should not be unique to people who end up deciding that that gender doesn't align with their assigned sex at birth. Right.
Elle:Because I think we all should have a complicated relationship with our gender and what it means to be a woman. So I find a lot of strength in my own definition of femininity and of womanhood, but what that strength looks like can differ because there is strength in speaking your mind and being bold and being Yeah. I wanna say aggressive, but I also know that
Anthony:Yeah.
Elle:There's a difference in how strength is interpreted along racial lines. Like, if I were to exhibit a certain behavior, people might say, she's confident. She's bold. Whereas if you might do that, they might say She's an aggressive black woman. We she got a bad attitude.
Elle:And it's just like, well, dang. I mean, I'm just speaking my mom. Like, come on now. Particularly in terms of, like, crying Yeah. And the way that my tears are perceived versus the way that your tears are perceived, which is very interesting, very worth talking about.
Elle:Y'all might talk about that on All Shades Chocolate.
Shakyra:Yeah. We're gonna switch it to it tomorrow. Or yeah.
Elle:Yeah. I find my feminine identity is very rooted in the idea of strength and compassion as
Shakyra:well. Compassion. So mine's it's like like I said, it's more like soft kindness. You know?
Elle:But also community, I think, is very important. Yeah. I was just gonna say,
Shakyra:like, sisterhood and stuff like that.
Elle:Sister yes. We're gonna talk about this later when we talk about socialization and care roles and stuff like that. There is a specific there is this thing in sociology called care work, and it encompasses a lot of stuff. One of the specific things is kin work, which is maintaining family relationships and maintaining familial ties. So if you think like, oh, my family is having a reunion or a barbecue or we're going over to grandma's house, ask yourself who is planning that?
Elle:Because it usually is a task that falls to women. Mhmm. As in, like, my grandma is the one who says, do you got does everybody wanna come over for sub sandwiches on the 23rd? Which hopefully, I will be able to make it to grandma. My grandma does not watch this either.
Elle:But tasks like that, maintaining those ties, maintaining sisterhood, maintaining community, I think is different in the in at least, you know, again, within this binary that does not exist, but between men and women. Like, have you, Anthony, I'm sure you've seen oh, sorry. I cracked my nipples. Anthony, I'm sure you've seen those posts that are like, I literally sent you one last night that was like, increasingly masculine ways to say happy birthday.
Anthony:Those are hilarious. Faking candles, my
Shakyra:brother. Yeah.
Elle:There was one that said,
Shakyra:many like, many balloons.
Elle:My favorite one was presence, like, with a c. Yeah. Presence with a t. So, like, presence, presence, and power.
Anthony:It was 1 on my heart.
Elle:Another point score to get a hug their time.
Shakyra:With the cake and candles.
Elle:I ain't even gonna hug you up.
Anthony:So my friend, Heaven, shout out her. She sent me a separate one. And this man literally literally was like tribute to the genesis of a gladiator.
Elle:That's the one I yes. That was the same
Anthony:oh, that was the same one. Yep. Why tribute to the genesis of a Gladiator.
Elle:You don't have to say all that nonsense.
Anthony:Like, that is hilarious. So it's funny y'all both sent me me that.
Elle:Yeah.
Anthony:And I wanna ask both of y'all based on I wanna ask this for externally too, but how would you guys prefer men to view you guys internally in terms of what a woman should do in a household or how they should respond in conversations?
Elle:I'm sorry.
Anthony:And then does how you guys would prefer it differ than how it is in real life?
Elle:We are gonna talk about this a bit later. Later.
Anthony:Oh, okay.
Elle:But that's a very good question. We're just even the fact that you asked on the question is is relevant. Yeah. Because we're talking about our own internal constructions of fem the feminine identity. Mhmm.
Elle:Then we're gonna talk externally, but we're also gonna talk about how what does it mean to be a woman in relation to men? And when you ask somebody, what does it mean to be a woman? How often does their answer involve treatment of or observation by men? What it means to be a woman is to exist in this dichotomy with a man. Like, why does our identity of that our identity of a woman attached to a man to be a man, personally, in a way that I think the masculine identity does not attach to women?
Elle:Mhmm. Like, I've been talking about this literally nonstop for so long now. I'm a big fan of Legend of Korra and Avatar the Last Airbender, and I have this theory. I think Tenzin is a very bad if not flaw or very flawed if not bad husband. Because we see his character flaws ex explored really well in the show.
Elle:Like, I could literally talk about this for so long. But think about what we know about Tenzin. Like, he's the son of Aang. He's an airbender. He has all these issues with only seeing himself as an airbender and not as a person.
Elle:What do we know about his wife?
Shakyra:You know, I never finished. She is a mother.
Anthony:I'm about to say so unfortunate. I have no idea what she's talking about.
Elle:Oh, you don't watch it?
Anthony:I've never
Shakyra:For those of you who watch Legend of the past.
Elle:We know literally nothing about Pema except for the fact that she is a mother. That's all of her character interactions. All of her arcs are her yelling out to Jinora, like, be safe, sweetie. And I think that's so interesting because if you examine her relationship, like, there's a scene where Tenzin reveals he can't, like, meditate, that's the meditation thing, into the spirit world. And she goes, what were you doing when you were off for hours at a time?
Elle:You have 4 young children. You were leaving for hours at a time when you already were, like, working late for the council? Anyway Seem pissed off. If you compare that, and I do think these pop culture, you know, and also
Shakyra:are relevant. Yeah.
Elle:If you compare that to Suyin Beifong, who her introduction is Cora saying, oh, are you a dancer? And she says, dancer, mother, wife, collector of rare meteorites, you'll find people here have many talents. So, Mhmm. But also, you know, in examining Pema's character, is that with her most of what we know about her being that she is just a mother, is that not its own own strength? How do we know that's not the role she wanted for herself?
Elle:How much of it is just the fact that the writers didn't give her a storyline? I'll wait. Oh. Although if we're talking about storyline issues in legend of Cora, we'll be here all day. Yeah.
Elle:So you asking about how we wanna be treated by men or people who don't identify as women, I think is relevant because, again, how much of our idea of femininity is linked to men? So
Anthony:So I guess before we get that, you guys, do you wanna go on to the external part? Mhmm. Okay.
Elle:How do we identify as women externally? How are means I'm gonna go through the questions and we'll talk about it. Okay. How are means of self expression, clothing, hair linked to words like masculine or feminine? Starting simple, when kids draw like men and women, they're stick figures with long or short hair.
Elle:Mhmm. And then I don't know if you've talked about this in sociology, but gender socialization is strongest in the first 10 years of life. At no other point in our lives are we more exposed to gender roles and expectations at least within American western culture. Mhmm. The dolls like, what kind of toys we buy, the clothes that people give.
Elle:If you've ever known a baby with no hair, my sisters, some kids I've nannied for, how often
Shakyra:do people cousin? I'm sorry.
Elle:Oh, like, is it a boy or a girl? Yeah. Because they they'll be like, oh, he's so cute. One time I got, your son is so cute. And I was like, okay.
Elle:This is neither a one, this is a girl. 2, not my child. Yeah.
Shakyra:No. I used to get that a lot too.
Elle:So how does this early socialization and emphasis on gender roles benefit our society, if at all? And how does it hurt it? Because I think like, Anthony, I got a question for you.
Anthony:Okay.
Elle:When you were growing up, did you ever picture your wedding?
Anthony:Up until a certain it it took a minute for me to get, like, maybe even, like, double digits age, like, 12 and up, maybe.
Shakyra:See, that's the thing. We always we always, they thought about it, like, at age well, like, 5 well, for me, at, like, 5 years old.
Elle:Yeah. How about you? Yeah. And then this is a common,
Shakyra:Like, I also wanted to be like, oh, I wanna become a wife and a mother. You know? That's suspected of us. So
Elle:Yeah. You I played with my dolls. You
Anthony:know? I
Elle:and this is I also wanna stress, not all of these experiences are universal. I have many female friends who I've talked with this about. I've been like, did you guys ever, like, think about your wedding? And they were like, no.
Shakyra:No. Not at all.
Elle:No. Not at all. And a part of me is like, oh, that's good that you weren't necessarily socialized to dream about that. But when I was a kid, I also a lot I've been to many, many weddings. I've been in many weddings.
Anthony:Oh, get anyone?
Elle:So I just wanna get married. Like, one of my cousins, who I won't mention by name, but I love her dearly. She, got married in the winter and she looked like a pretty, pretty princess. And I, because of her, wanna get married in the winter. I do have pictures and I look so cute in them.
Elle:There's one photo of me with all my cousins and I'm like the only one looking right at the camera. Winner that I am. And I I showed that picture to Mike and he goes, do you like this picture because you're standing in the middle? I'm like, what? Stop cooking me.
Elle:A story about gender socialization that actually relates to that silly little t shirt I'm wearing here. This is, oh my god. I just forgot the horse's name. This is the horse from She Ra Princess.
Anthony:Friday?
Elle:What?
Anthony:You don't get the the horse's name was Friday. You get the joke?
Elle:No. No.
Anthony:You don't get it either? It was it's a it's a riddle. It's a riddle slash iCarly reference.
Shakyra:I don't know.
Anthony:Do you do you get it?
Elle:What? I'm on it. Wait. I was done. Listen.
Elle:I
Anthony:love iCarly, but I don't get the riddle.
Elle:It's It's not just from iCarly. It says
Anthony:It's much for more stuff? Well, I know it's initially a riddle.
Elle:The phrase comes from a famous riddle that dates back to an unknown time. Yeah. The riddle goes, a cowboy rides into town on Friday, stays in town for 3 days, then leaves on Friday. How did he do it?
Anthony:The horse's name was Friday.
Elle:The riddle was made popular after it was mentioned in the episode, I give away a car of iCarly. Boom. Okay. Well, I don't know if
Shakyra:you remember that.
Elle:I'm just gonna call this even a horse.
Shakyra:This is a This is a slash Yeah. You did. Right.
Elle:So this is from the TV show She Ra Princesses of Power. Fun fact, I wrote an essay about it once. Really? Yes. Nice.
Elle:And that's the essay Do you have a copy? I do. Yes.
Shakyra:I'm gonna read it.
Elle:Oh, thank you. The opening of my essay relates to socialization because I have worked, babysat many families, and I was babysitting this family in this little tiny 3 year old girl. Oh, I miss her. She asked me. She's just playing with her dolls.
Elle:We're having a conversation. And when you work with kids, you get asked all the time, do you have a boyfriend? Do you have a boyfriend? Do you have a boyfriend? And this little tiny 3 year old goes, do you have a boyfriend or do you have a girlfriend?
Elle:And I nearly started crying because I was thinking about how when I was that age, I didn't know what gay people were. I mean, I did,
Shakyra:but I was, like, too afraid to, like, express it because, you know
Elle:Oh. Yeah. And for this little tiny child to just act like it was the most natural thing in the world was so important to me, and it made me think about socials. The essay that I wrote was about, queer representation in children's media. And, Yeah.
Elle:And She References the Power, I think, is a wonderful show because it does a great job of balancing existing queer relationships in the world, like, with parents and other characters while also addressing the possibility that the child themself could be queer. So instead of just like a book that's like, my friend has 2 moms, which is super important, super necessary. It addresses the queer child with, spoilers, Adora and Catra's 5 season and friends to enemies to lovers arc. Oh my god. When Catra's like, Adora doesn't want me, not the way that I want her.
Elle:Lives were changed. So, yeah, these I think our society as a whole could really benefit and has benefited from media geared towards children that shows them more than one expression of femininity, more than just motherhood, which isn't to say that motherhood isn't incredibly meaningful. Right. Exactly. Not the only part of what it means to be a woman.
Anthony:So that presents an interesting question then. You may hear it sometimes in the discussions of mainly people who are homophobic, but, like, certain things shouldn't be taught in, like, children's media or children's books. So I wanna ask y'all, 1, I guess, would y'all agree with what y'all just said of, like, having those certain type of educational conversations in school. And then if y'all do feel they should be relevant or in the in the school system Yeah. How would you personally go about it?
Anthony:Especially since you've worked with kids. So
Elle:Right. Anything that you can show straight people doing to children, you can show gay people doing. Because the idea, eventually, you want like, with this little 3 year old, you wanna get to a place where it's not even something you have to bring up. It's already ingrained in their understanding of the world and what could exist. Mhmm.
Elle:So I don't have a whole roll out here for Yeah. How to introduce that in our school system. But
Shakyra:I feel like you just have to start small, you know. Just teach them, you know. Don't even be like, oh, well, it's complicated. No. Just give it to them straight.
Elle:Exactly. Yeah. Mhmm. That's yeah. Because for children who are queer or children who oftentimes, well, not oftentimes.
Elle:Some transgender people know from a very young age that they are trans.
Shakyra:That yeah. Exactly.
Elle:And this has to do or it doesn't have to. It's similar to how a lot of white people or, non black people don't want to necessarily teach their children about racial violence. If an 8 year old boy is old enough to know that he needs to interact with the cops in a certain way, and if he is old enough to know, I can't do this to the cop, I can't do that to the cop, not that I have to tell you this, then your 8 year old white kid is is old enough to understand why. Yeah. Exactly.
Elle:So yeah. Just the goal is that it it won't even be something they recognize as not normal. Mhmm.
Anthony:I definitely agree because when it comes to these conversations, no matter if you try and shun them away from your child or not, it's in the world. So these are worldly conversations, whether it's about the LGBTQIA plus community or just about women or how they should be viewed in the world. You're gonna get these conversations anyway. You may hear the good and the bad. You may hear the homophobic or the sexist or, unfortunately, sometimes racist comments, but you also hear the, this is why I represent myself this way, whether that whatever community you're a part of.
Anthony:So I agree that they should have a place in the school system regardless. And like you mentioned, Shakyra, it really just starts as a conversation. Usually, the problem is they're just not talked about these type of conversations.
Shakyra:Yeah. Because it's yeah.
Elle:Yeah. Kids understand more than you think they do. Exactly. It's like it's more like
Shakyra:they're not I'm I'm sorry. They're not stupid. Come on now. They they are not stupid.
Elle:You can tell a shot. Like, did you catch this in, I think 2 weeks ago, the Abbott episode? The substitute teacher in Janine's class used gender neutral pronouns.
Shakyra:Yeah. Yeah.
Elle:It just said, it just said m x. Mhmm. Yeah. Kids will like, you could say to a child, oh, like, this is uncle or aunt wait. No.
Elle:You wouldn't say sorry. That's my chair. You wouldn't say uncle or aunt, but you would be like, oh, this is my friend. They and then the kid would be like, are you a boy or a girl? And you could be like, oh, this person doesn't really identify with either of those terms, and the kids would be like, okay, watch me do this, and then they'll do like a stupid thing especially
Shakyra:like a
Elle:back flip. They have more pressing things on their mind.
Shakyra:Yeah. You know, they have short entertainment span too. So it won't probably, like, stick, but at the same time, I feel like that we do need to, like, teach them to get them, like you said, to understand so it can stick with them, if that makes sense.
Elle:So Mhmm. Yeah.
Anthony:And then especially oh, were you about to say something else?
Elle:I I was gonna talk more about how we excuse me. How we identify as women externally. So clothing here, like, when we link these terms to feminine or masculine.
Shakyra:It's funny because I have a story.
Elle:Go ahead.
Shakyra:So when I was 15, I decided to, like, get a haircut. It was, like, shaved and this and this and
Elle:things like I remember. Yeah. I remember. Yeah.
Shakyra:So I was like, can you turn
Elle:our mics down a little bit?
Shakyra:Oh, sorry.
Anthony:Crazy enough. I asked them to turn you up a bit. Oh. But sometimes, you kinda ticket. Oh.
Shakyra:Yeah. But, yeah. So I decided to, you know, do a shortcut and stuff like that. And I was living under my granddad. I love him to death, but, you know, he he pretty old school.
Shakyra:You know how old school black
Anthony:Traditional, you decide?
Elle:Traditional. Okay. I don't much.
Shakyra:Well, you don't. But, you know
Anthony:Is your grand is your granddad black?
Elle:If you know, you know. Inside joke.
Anthony:Shout out Brad. But
Shakyra:But yes. So so funny. It's funny because I think where I was at? I was at my dad's, for a weekend, and I decided to, you know, cut my hair at my dad house. And, you know, I went to a male barbershop, which is, like, the weirdest experience I ever experienced.
Shakyra:Really?
Elle:Yeah.
Anthony:It was just Could you expound upon it?
Shakyra:Man, it was just bad. They were just like talking about women in a, you know, like, in a sexist way, like, oh, you know, in a perverted way.
Elle:Didn't they?
Shakyra:Oh, no. I don't think they did. But, like, they were just, like, talking, like, sexually around me. And it was like, bro, I'm a 15 year old girl. Like, come on now.
Shakyra:Yeah. But, yes. I was at my dad house because my dad I mean, he's, like, really open minded. So he was like, if
Elle:you wanna cut your hair, go ahead.
Shakyra:I mean, I'll pay for it. Aw. So I did it, you know, when I was at his house. And then I went back to my granddad's house and things like that. And he was, like, he was, like, really mad.
Shakyra:He was, like, why would you cut your hair? Kids will pick on you. You're a girl and stuff like that. And I was just, like, dang. I mean, why my hairstyle's gotta define me as a, you know, a girl or not?
Elle:I mean
Anthony:It's so interesting when the conversations like those arise. And it always
Shakyra:my feelings at the time. I was crying.
Anthony:And it usually okay. Yeah. And that's so unfortunate because it usually comes from, like, a underlying, like, concern on, like, not trying to throw you down, but just they don't want kids to pick on you. Right? Like you said, you said kids are gonna pick on you.
Anthony:But it's unfortunate that, a, that probably was the truth.
Elle:And I
Shakyra:didn't get picked on.
Anthony:Of just the idea of, like, kids being cruel is what I'm speaking of. Like, kids can unfortunately talk about the darnest things, and then just you did it to express yourself and you thought you look good with it. So that would that's just all you were thinking about. But then you might have to think about all other factors of all that. So it just becomes unfortunate when you get that clash of why'd you do this, and then your answer may not really be good enough depending on what
Shakyra:you want to do. Yeah. And it's just like they not to, like, put my family on blast, but they was the type to, like, not hear you out at all. They used to, like, shut me down a lot. So, yeah.
Shakyra:That that's another story. But yeah.
Anthony:And you mentioned some interesting, Al, when you were, asking. If I heard you correctly, you asked, what they saying, like, female? Is that what you had to
Elle:ask? Yeah. I'm not a big fan of the word female being referred to as human women. If you're talking about Actually, I'm not just let me let me clarify.
Anthony:I was about to say, can you and my question was gonna be, can you educate me on the perspective of why that's bad? Yes.
Elle:I'm not a big fan of the use of female as a noun.
Anthony:Mhmm.
Elle:If you're saying, like, female basketball player, shout out, Caitlin Clark, or Angel Reese. Mhmm. But if you're if you're talking about just wait.
Anthony:Esha Kyra shows or something.
Elle:See? Exactly. It's a tweet talking about
Shakyra:An adjective is used to describe a noun. Female is an adjective to use to specify a type of noun. Female doctor, female tiger, female s u SUV port, etcetera. Female is not a noun.
Elle:USB port is Yeah. I don't know.
Shakyra:He was just talking to his side of the neck. But, anyways yeah. So
Elle:Yeah. It's it's no. It is a noun. And as a linguistics minor, parts of speech are all lies and made up anyway.
Anthony:Dot. You
Elle:fighting for my life trying to take a final. But, I there is a specific way it gets used now in terms of men complaining about women saying, like, oh, you know, females this, females that. Mhmm. And it's like and it's they never say males. Mhmm.
Elle:So I'm not a big fan of that the use of that word. I don't think anyone's ever used it once as a mature person. To me. I just think it it Mhmm. It's subjugating in a way.
Elle:Yeah.
Anthony:So well, from my perspective, because I do have a different perspective, even though understanding that it makes a lot of sense. I just feel like it's a tone a tonal issue of, like, if I am referring to someone who is, represented as a woman, think it's more tonal, at least, when I use it. But you made an important distinction of, let's say, men who do refer to women as female sometimes, but they don't say males. That is an issue. Yeah.
Anthony:Because then it seems more intentional to kind of Oh,
Shakyra:it is intentional.
Anthony:Objective or not objectify. Just I think you said subjectify or subject
Elle:It it is. It it's like women are often, in many countries in the world, second class citizens. Which means we do not have the rights that men do. Let alone people who fall outside of that binary. Mhmm.
Elle:But we don't have the rights over our own bodies and the choices that we get to make for them. Exactly. So for a long time, women, especially women of color, did not have the right to vote. Mhmm. Obviously, black people didn't either.
Elle:But, like like, you know, we're coming up on or no. We already passed it. A 100 years of white women being able to vote, which is a big deal. But, yeah. Being treated as second class citizens means you are not seen the same way You're not seen equal.
Elle:That men are. Again, I don't have to explain that to you guys or both. Yeah. No. Yeah.
Elle:When you say females, like, why why wouldn't that sentence work if you said women? And It would
Anthony:work the same way. It should work the same way.
Elle:But it doesn't because also, it's it's just any generalizing statement. Mhmm. So, an another thing in terms of self expression, when you link means of self expression to words like masculine and feminine, I really think you limit the possibilities of your own self expression. Like a man thinking that he cannot wear a skirt, think about all the cool looks you are missing out on.
Anthony:Mhmm. Or I
Elle:bet you could rock that.
Shakyra:I remember, do you know who Dennis Rodmian is?
Anthony:Of course.
Shakyra:Yeah. That whole thing
Anthony:Shout out to Chicago shout out to Chicago Bulls and Detroit Pistons.
Shakyra:Right. Right. Right. Yeah. So it was just like well, I guess he was, like, wearing a dress and stuff like that.
Shakyra:And everybody was just, like, in a outrage about it and just, you know
Anthony:And even more personally, I won't put the people And
Shakyra:Kid Cudi too.
Anthony:Shout out Kid Cudi. I won't put the people who specifically said this on blast. Even though if you know me, you could take a wild guess. But there was a documentary of Dennis Rodman that came on, and it showed that, he had a belly button piercing. And my my people who I was talking to at the moment were made an expression or made a comment that said, he's so weird to have that belly button piercing.
Anthony:Why would men ever get that?
Elle:Because it looks cute.
Anthony:I'm sitting there with a belly button piercing.
Elle:Or you have a belly button piercing? No. No. You were like, we are out. They went knee deep.
Elle:Because we don't know how to swim. Yeah. I was scared. So funny. It was me and Claire, our other friend, who is white, and then the rest of the friend group who is not.
Elle:And they were are you Claire and I, we swam all the way out past where the waves break.
Anthony:I thought there were mermaids. I thought there were women. Yes.
Shakyra:He kept calling them mermaids.
Elle:I turned back and they're all standing again. Like, we're not even waist deep. We're going It was like
Shakyra:on a short I thought
Elle:you guys said you were coming out, and y'all went We were. We were. I'm like, just say no.
Anthony:And We got
Elle:who I think we got Stevie and Janae to come out farther with us. And they were like Shot out both of them.
Shakyra:And then
Elle:they came back, and they were like, it was so fun. We were totally safe. I'm like, yes. You were.
Anthony:I was spooked.
Shakyra:Let's go. I used to
Elle:be a lifeguard. She knows CPR. She's not gonna let anything happen to you. So that was very funny. But, no, I didn't notice you had a naval piercing.
Anthony:Yeah. And with the conversation that I had with those people who made that comment of me having a bellybutton piercing, it was really negative in their response. And I'm also someone who has worn, like, crop tops, for example, and just the fact
Shakyra:that are fun. I love crop tops, even though I got a little pouch. But, you know
Elle:And Okay. I love them. I'm a couch. Okay, aunt. Right.
Elle:So do kangaroos, and people love them.
Anthony:Wow. That's hilarious. And even to tie it kangaroo. To tie it back into women, I was having a conversation with a woman who was very close to me, and she was explaining how if she wore more male presenting clothes of, like, a sweatshirt and sweatpants, her, inner circle could deemed at deemed her as a part of the LGBTQIA plus community. And when asked pretty much to be more blunt, like, are you gay because you wear those certain clothes?
Anthony:And it was so frustrating to me because, a, of just having the reverse of, like, if I wear certain things of having my male counterparts be, like, are you trying to tell us something, quote, unquote?
Elle:I think But
Shakyra:Just like when That's you know, guys wear, like, eyeliner and stuff like that, a eye shadow. Mhmm. And it's just like, why does makeup have to be, you know
Elle:It's a very interesting case of the usually, when a, someone who identifies as a woman takes on masculine qualities, are you I'm trying to think of the best way to say this. You are I mean okay. In Western civilization, women are more impacted by sexism, Which is to not to say that men aren't impacted, but it's more like like if you hear people talk about, well, men also suffer from the patriarchy. Yeah. Who set the system up?
Anthony:Yeah.
Elle:So Oh, we like, we're we're not being treated equally too. Well, whose fault is that? Right. But, that's an interesting case of where men
Shakyra:come from the house. Exactly.
Elle:But where men tend they get more, at least in my experience and opinion, they receive more pushback from presenting in a feminine manner than women do for presenting in a masculine manner. Like, it's way more common to see women wear pants than it is to see a man wear a skirt, for example. Mhmm. And when people do push these boundaries, as is the case with so many things, it's the white people that do it that get the credit. Like, Harry Styles being on the cover of Vogue wearing a dress, even though Billy Porter has been pushing gender norms and fashion for Do you watch Vogue?
Elle:Far longer. No. You should watch that.
Shakyra:That's a great show.
Elle:But not and it's not to say even when Harry Styles was on the cover of Vogue in a dress, it was a huge deal. Dresses are fun. Exactly. I love a good dress.
Shakyra:I used to didn't like dresses, but I'm grown to them now.
Anthony:This reminds me, I didn't told, Shakira and Jada, shout out Jada, because we when we, live in the same space, and when they wear, like, their nightgowns, I be telling them, like, that looks so comfortable. Like, I
Elle:they need to make male nightgown. Matter of fact, let me look
Anthony:at the cap.
Elle:They need to make male nightgowns.
Anthony:And I I wanna make a Kaisa Nat joke, but I'll
Elle:I don't know who that is.
Shakyra:That's the the surgeon.
Anthony:Mhmm. Yeah.
Elle:Anthony, you can get a male nightgown, and then you could get one of those, like, stocking caps like, a Yeah. Yes. That's a vibe. Y'all be looking so comfortable. Oh, it's so This is the
Anthony:most random side track in
Elle:the world.
Shakyra:Girls. Oh.
Anthony:But I don't
Elle:Girl. I'm just my head. It'd be so comfortable. I mean, I don't know.
Anthony:The most random sidetrack I could think of, but it's crazy how they do y'all with pockets. Like, how y'all pockets be barely existing, but then they want y'all to wear, like
Elle:because they wanna they wanna sell us hands.
Anthony:So that they do y'all so scandalous. No. Ayo. Oh,
Elle:I like that you
Anthony:did not like that.
Elle:First of all, I'm playing. So I just I know. I've had hints like that. Like but also, another factor in limiting means of self expression to the ideas of femininity and masculinity are that women who want to push back against that developed internalized misogyny. Like, when I was a kid, I was like, I don't like pink.
Elle:It's girly. Why does that make it bad? Mhmm. Because I didn't wanna be girly. I didn't wanna be I'm not like other girls.
Elle:That's why I have a feminism playlist. And one of my favorite songs in there is Most Girls by, Hailee Steinfeld because she's like, I wanna be like most girls, as she should. But it develops this idea of I don't like dresses. I don't like pink. You push these things that are deemed as feminine away because you think being feminine is lesser.
Shakyra:Yeah. It's a bad thing. And it's like, it's not a bad thing. It's not at all. It's not.
Anthony:So building up to where we are now in the episode, I wanna ask, based on what we've just talked about and or even you've mentioned, like, the fact that sometimes the control of your bodies are sometimes taken away from the other side or other people. So based on wanting to still express yourself and even still being safe, how do you guys feel is the best way to represent yourselves? Whether it be vocally or externally based on, like, even when you get in situations of, like, if you reject a man, it could become unsafe. Talk about certain things.
Elle:Or they'll say, I'm I'm probably not your type. A guy hit on me in my laundry bag. He He asked for my snap and I said, no, thank you. And then he said, that's okay. I'm probably not your type.
Anthony:Like, pick pick yourself up.
Elle:And for reference, what was crazy, what surprised me, he was black, and I thought that's what he meant. I'm 95% sure sure that is what he meant.
Shakyra:I think that's what
Elle:he meant. That's what
Anthony:he meant.
Elle:Because I double back, I said, what does that mean? And he was like, it just means I'm not your type. I don't I prefer I mean, not that it happens all the time. Not to toot my own horn over here. But when I am hit on, I don't love to say, well, I have a boyfriend because I don't like it when men respect another man's claim to me more than they respect my own.
Elle:Yeah. Like No.
Shakyra:Bro. I don't like it.
Elle:I shouldn't have to tell you that
Anthony:I have
Elle:a boyfriend. Exactly. But he was also wearing a shiesty mask in the laundry room. Who is gonna get you there? Okay.
Shakyra:So who What are those?
Elle:Do you have?
Shakyra:Who don't know what a shiesty mask is? It's basically just a type of ski mask.
Elle:It's worn to conceal your identity. Who is gonna get you in the laundry room of an East Lansing apartment?
Shakyra:It's a stylist, you know. It's it's just a trend, you know.
Anthony:And he thought some tie
Elle:pops was coming for it.
Shakyra:Stop playing.
Elle:I like
Anthony:to clean y'all up.
Elle:I like to mop you up. And I I was telling my boyfriend this story. I said, who's gonna get him in that laundry room? He typed back in all caps, me. As he shoulda, period, Mike.
Elle:So I'm not your type. But, yeah,
Shakyra:can you can we talk about getting catcalled? Have you ever got catcalled?
Elle:I have been catcalled. Of course. And that's And that's
Shakyra:the sad part about it.
Elle:That's another thing I wanted to talk about. Oh my gosh. I hope we have time for everything. But Sydney Sweeney has talked about this, the actress. She developed, secondary sex characteristics like breasts.
Elle:We're gonna talk more about the physicality in just a moment. But at a young age, and it really changed the way that people looked at her. That's true for me as well. I remember Me too. My 6th grade graduation, I had a dress my grandma took me dress shopping, and I had 2 dresses that I loved.
Elle:And one of them was like an a line, like one of these, and I loved that dress. And the other one was completely covered all the way up to my neck.
Shakyra:And Your grandma told you to put the other one on?
Elle:No. My grandma let me take both of them and said
Shakyra:Which one?
Elle:She'd let me pick both of them and send your mother who's gonna decide. Oh. So I showed them to my mom, and my mom didn't let me wear the one that That yeah. And it was I really, really didn't like that. Part of it has I think part of it has to do with it.
Elle:I went to Catholic school, so my 6th grade graduation was in a church. Yeah. So you're not supposed to wear spaghetti straps anyway. Mhmm. But I think if I had a different physique, it wouldn't have been a problem.
Elle:And it really changes the way people look at you when you're younger.
Shakyra:Yeah. I had a battle with that too. Like, you you know how I'm wearing my skinny jeans right now?
Anthony:Any jeans on and your nose and that. Hey. Hey. I wanna do this do this dance now. I just doing that.
Anthony:Yeah. Yeah.
Elle:You just told me to put my in your pocket. So, yes, I did know you were wearing skinny jeans.
Shakyra:But, it's like a thing that I used to grow up with. Okay. So I'm a very curvy girl. I always been a curvy girl since I hit puberty. I mean, that's just how it is.
Shakyra:So I couldn't really wear, like, shorts or whatever or, like, a skirt because, you know, of my body and things like that.
Elle:When you say couldn't, were you uncomfortable with it? Or No. Were you silent, or were you silent?
Shakyra:I was silent. I was silent. I wanted to wear this, you know, the skirt and the cute shorts, but, you know, my parents, like, they were my family just wasn't going for it because they was like, oh, well, you know, men is gonna be looking at you. Like, okay. I get it now that I'm older.
Shakyra:Men are so perverted.
Elle:It's so 2 minutes ago, we just had a discussion on general statements. But it's it's interesting who is more likely to because even when people talk about, oh, well, men are assaulted too. Men are assaulted too. Yeah. But by whom?
Elle:Most of the time, other men. Yeah.
Anthony:I love the fact that you know when to use who and whom. Like, that is just so cold to me. But
Shakyra:I used to struggle with that
Elle:a lot. I haven't gone to
Anthony:the tunnel. This presents a question that, if you know me, I always express on how I love to have a daughter when I have kids. And I've asked this question a lot to the women in my life. But how do y'all feel of the dynamic of having to change your clothes because a man is coming in the house?
Elle:Absolutely. I that is not something I've I had never heard of till I was older. I I never had to do that. Yeah. It's fine.
Elle:No man who ever would look at me that way would be allowed to do that.
Shakyra:Yeah. So I just feel like if you're worried about that person, why have have that person around your your daughter? But at the same time, it's just like I don't know. I kinda I just feel like well, at least my family, they just presented it in most family, they just presented it wrong. They made it seem like that the daughter or the, you know, the little girl in the family was in the wrong.
Elle:Mhmm.
Shakyra:But it's just like, you can just teach your daughter how to, you know, like, present that self in a better way without shaming them. I personally feel like
Elle:But why should she have to change the way she presents?
Shakyra:No. I absolutely get that too.
Anthony:It's a very especially as a man and as a eventual dad, it's such a hard, conversation to think about. Because the right answer, in my opinion, should be they shouldn't have to change their clothes at all. And if, like you said, if there's somebody in their house that's presenting a danger, they shouldn't be around in the first place. However, I can see the alternative of, let's say, they have hit puberty early and they have body parts that may show more than others, then I can also get from the perspective of how you're carrying yourself and not from just the people entering
Shakyra:your home. They I personally feel like, well, maybe that's just me. They was doing it in a way where they was, like, making me feel bad about it. Like, dang. It's not my fault that I have this and this and that,
Anthony:you know. What makes it weird is I have had to also be in that position. Like, me and my sister have been in that position of, like, my parents, they were, they'd usually be against, like, if I'm wearing a tank top or shorts, if somebody's coming over. Like, I can't want them to throw on, like, jog your pants and the shirt, which I always
Shakyra:guy perspective.
Anthony:And it always I would always counter it because I would say, like, one, I live here. Like, they don't live here. Why I gotta change my clothes? And I'm not about to be in a family to be in my room. But
Shakyra:Exactly.
Anthony:Oh, De Montee showing. I can't see what he's, if I'm a grab this real quick, show it to the camera.
Elle:Yapping? State news, Michigan publication that I'll if you could explain why you're showing me this. So this is
Anthony:it's good news.
Elle:Shout out to
Anthony:I don't know. We'll talk about it off off camera. Shout out whatever that is.
Elle:Yeah. Is it are we still recording? Yeah. Okay. Just make sure you cut out again.
Anthony:I also just in case and I used to start doing this anyway, but I record it on my phone just in case. Oh. So if it do stop again, I can't.
Elle:This is, this is actually all the stuff we've been talking about ties really well into my next set of questions. So in a I'm constructing what it means to be a woman. What is the role of assigned sex at birth? That's the AFAB term we were talking about. How do sex organs and secondary sex characteristics play into our ideas of womanhood?
Elle:Then this is a personal statement of mine. Limiting the feminine experience to just physical traits holds us all back, not only because it's transphobic, but because womanhood is so much more than just physical. Mhmm. How do women who aren't assigned female at birth construct their identity as women? And then that's what I was saying.
Elle:I think it's important for everyone including cisgender people to examine their own relationship with gender and how that contributed contributes to their identity as a whole. Because I think we all should examine our gender, but I don't think anyone's identity should only be rooted in their understanding of gender. Mhmm. And this has to do a little bit with physicality and self expression. I, I did Shakespeare camp in the summers.
Elle:Shakespeare I did a outdoor theater Shakespeare camp. Was it fun? It was so much fun. Oh. I it was probably the best part of my high school experience, like, hands down.
Elle:I played, a man 4 years in a row. I was trinkulo in, Tempest. I was Hamlet and Hamlet at 15, black. Well, it was a youth Shakespeare program, but I was still on the younger side. I was Oberon and Theseus.
Elle:I was double cast in Midsummer Night's Dream, Both male characters, and it was a woman playing my wife, and then I was Macbeth and Macbeth, and it was again a woman playing my wife. Mhmm. But I so I've played male characters four times. And I did wear pants, but I never like it was in the summer and it was outdoors, so I was wearing a tank top because it's hot. Yeah.
Elle:But I remember I had a super awesome director. Shout out, Frannie Shepard Bates. I have no idea if she would ever see this, but I miss her dearly. And she was a wonderful, wonderful influence and role model throughout my life. But one thing she said to me was after I'd been playing Hamlet for a while, I got used to sitting in a more masculine manner.
Elle:Oh, like Like woah. Oh, I
Shakyra:said like this. Oh my gosh.
Elle:I mean, I gotta yell now as the mic picks me up. Like this So or like with my hips spread quite wide or my hands down on my knees. So
Shakyra:sometimes it's kinda, like, hard for me to, like, you know, close, I guess, close my legs or whatever. So when I was, like, in middle school, I used to, like, sit like this in class or whatever. And I remember these girls, they was like, close your legs. Be a lady. And I was just like
Elle:My grandma says be a lady all the time. No. And I was just like No. Dang. I just can't sit.
Shakyra:Listen. I don't care. I sit like this. I be like this. Y'all not gonna tell me how to sit.
Elle:I mean There's a there's a singer. Her name is Devin Cole. My baby sister introduced me to her. She has a song called Hey, Cowboy. And in the song, she says, I'm a woman not a lady.
Elle:And I like that line. There's a, but what this this woman said to me, this role model mentor to me, I was telling her I'd been sitting like that more. And I said, I don't I don't remember what I said, but I remember her response to me because it has stuck with me for so long. I said, now I feel weird though. I said, I don't like I was like, oh, I've been sitting like this, this and this and this.
Elle:I don't wanna bother people. I don't again, I don't remember what I said, but it was something of an apologetic nature, like, that since I've been practicing that way sitting that way because I was playing Hamlet, I've been doing it more at home, this and this and this. And I felt bad and she looked at me and she went, never apologize for the space that you take up in this world.
Shakyra:I think you told me that.
Elle:I think of of course. Yeah. Because I think about it all the time. So when I sit in more masculine ways or I, like, lean not me. Almost hitting myself in the mic.
Elle:In the face of this mic.
Shakyra:We gotta go
Elle:talk about that. I gotta joke for you later. That's that's something that I remember. So how we sit the space we take up, we as women are often encouraged to be seen and not heard to make ourselves look small.
Shakyra:Mhmm.
Elle:And I think that's very limiting. Yeah. So okay. What's the role of assigned sex at birth? How do sex organs and secondary sex characteristics play into ideas of womanhood?
Elle:Because that's an important distinction to make. Breasts are not sex organs.
Anthony:And when she's when we were, curating this episode and making the pitch and everything, she explained this to me. And I was just sitting there like, I never thought about it like that.
Elle:They are not there for a sexual purpose.
Shakyra:So sex
Elle:organs nursing
Shakyra:are babies.
Elle:Exactly. But if we think about I I couldn't give you a full list of sex organs. But, like, if you think about a penis or testicles or the vulva or but actually, fun fact, the clitoris has no actual purpose. There isn't it is not necessary. Is that like the chair on the pod really?
Elle:No. Literally, the clitoris is the only organ on anyone's body that exists only for pleasure. Period. As a joke. No.
Elle:So but but breasts are not sexual by nature. There is nothing about them that is for sex.
Shakyra:Yeah.
Elle:Which there there is, like, a free the nipple movement that women should be allowed to walk around topless like they like men can.
Anthony:Mhmm. Frida nip. Hey.
Elle:But it's taken out of context.
Anthony:Hey, brother. Take a candle.
Elle:That's what I'm talking about though. Okay. See.
Anthony:And I'm making a I'm being funny for her point.
Elle:Yeah. I know. It's a complicated discussion because that also has to do with what we were talking about earlier. You do you remember what I said about, like, kids and gender? We eventually wanna get to a place where they don't even recognize it as weird.
Elle:Like yeah. So if I ever have a daughter, I wanna get to a place where she can wear whatever she wants, wherever she wants. I want her to feel empowered. But I also recognize that that is not the world we live in. Mhmm.
Anthony:Same.
Elle:I'm not, like you know, is it is it safe for me to send her into the world if she develops at a young age wearing something that could potentially get her Yeah. Or no. Yeah. That's some see, I don't even know how to say it.
Anthony:Potentially bring on attention that she may not wear.
Shakyra:A lot of attention. There's a Yeah.
Elle:There's an exhibit called what were they wearing. That's what different women I don't I think it's just women, but were wearing when they were assaulted and there's like a military office uniform or like children's clothes because people will find a way to assault you regardless. It does not matter. Which you there's nothing that you can wear that will ever justify being assaulted.
Anthony:And that's the counterargument that I think of when you get the conversations of, oh, change if you're going in a different area or these type of things. It's like, if a sick person is gonna do a sick thing
Elle:They don't
Anthony:do it regardless. It doesn't matter if they're fully covered or not.
Elle:But it it affects our discussion of, like, the free the nipple movement because we want to be in a world where breasts aren't overtly sexualized. Mhmm. Like, freeing the nipple is not a sexual thing. Yeah. It the entire idea is just that women or here we go.
Elle:People who are assigned female at birth, people with breasts should be allowed to walk around topless the way men can.
Anthony:Mhmm.
Elle:But there's so many other implications to that. So when I say sex organs and secondary sex men's hands, or people who get really into math or to us people those who were assigned male at birth. Hands. See, I'm learning, guys. Mhmm.
Elle:Like, you ever seen that? People are like, oh, look at his hands. Yeah. Okay.
Anthony:And it brings an interesting discussion of, like, even with me making my joke of, like, yeah, I agree with Freda Nipple. It's usually if, a man were to say something like this, mainly to be sexual or to view those as a turn on or things of that nature. But when you really think about it, it's like breasts are there to breastfeed.
Elle:Yes. For nurses.
Anthony:So it's really and even I've been in situations to where I, again, my second job at the Breslin Center to where mother had her, I think it was their daughter, but their child, and they needed to breastfeed them. And they had the lady had asked me, like, is it cool if I breastfeed my kid over, like, the little side area? And then I was like, of course. Yeah. Go right ahead.
Anthony:But I thought about it. I'm like, wow. That's really that that has to be a question. Question. Yeah.
Anthony:Because of making people uncomfortable people staring or
Elle:There's like a particular photo. I forgive me. I don't know the photographer. But of a, a person with breast. I don't know how they identified.
Elle:But breastfeeding their child at a mall in front of, like, a Victoria's Secret ad, And it was like, one of these things is not allowed.
Anthony:What was the thing that was not allowed?
Elle:Breast feeding. But the breast being presented in a sexual contact context to sell something was allowed. Mhmm. So but the role of assigned sex at birth and constructing our idea of womanhood, like I said, is not only transphobic, and that's all it has to be for it to be wrong. It shouldn't need to affect other people.
Elle:If it's transphobic, it's transphobic, and that is enough. But that's not all it is. It hurts, like, if people talk a lot about transgender women in sports and how, like, they're they tried to do this thing where they instituted a cap of certain hormone levels that you could naturally have in your body. Yeah. That hurts cisgender women too because there are cisgender women with high testosterone or high whatever the particular chemical was.
Elle:And this is, like, one of those if you don't see color, you don't see patterns. They were black women.
Shakyra:Mhmm.
Elle:Sports are based on natural advantage. That is the entire point. And no one ever shares the stories of the time. Like, there's a transgender swarmer. Her name is Leah Thomas, I believe.
Elle:Nobody ever talks about when she loses.
Anthony:Mhmm. So with that conversation being presented, because that is also another interesting thing, is someone who is into more sports that are more physical than average, like UFC boxing. Do you feel based on nothing of do should transgender or let me not ask, should transgender women be allowed in sports like that? Do you feel as though it should be universally accepted that transgender women are in sports of UFC, boxing, etcetera, regardless of testosterone or whatever's Personality?
Elle:Yes. But I will estrogen, you were saying? Estrogen? Yes. But there are other chemicals too.
Elle:And I also acknowledge that I don't know enough about the science behind it.
Anthony:Same.
Elle:But I am also not a fan of these sports. Because I think a lot of the times, people who are like, oh, there's a trans woman. She's a swimmer. I didn't know you cared about women's swimming. Tell me one other fact.
Elle:Who's your favorite swimmer? They don't. They just wanna have a problem. They just wanna talk about As interesting as that is, it's not our topic today. But another reason, like I said, it impacted it being transphobic is enough for it to be wrong.
Elle:But it doesn't just impact trans women. It also impacts people, like, limiting femininity to the idea of motherhood is very, very harmful and toxic for people who cannot have children. Exactly. Especially if they want children. It's harmful for women who have had ovarian cancer, endometriosis, a hysterectomy, menopause.
Elle:Mhmm. Like PCOS. PCOS. Yeah. Breast cancer, like, who have to have heart.
Elle:A I forgot what it's called. Possibly a mastectomy. But, like, who have like, there are people who had their breasts removed for reasons other than, gender affirming surgeries. And gender affirming surgeries also aren't limited to trans people. If you've ever seen a man get jaw implants, bad money, you will know.
Elle:Cisgender people have all kinds of gender affirming surgeries. Yeah.
Anthony:I was go I was add that in my notes to cut that out. But you said it in a way, I don't think I could cut that statement out without the statement. So you got me. But I never is that like fact? But but if I'm gonna keep it in.
Elle:It's allegedly. To quote Wendy Williams. Allegedly. Oh, well. I just I don't like the gender affirming care is not limited.
Elle:No. I didn't. To trans people. Like, when I didn't know that. Who decide that they want boob jobs themselves, that is their prerogative.
Elle:Exactly.
Anthony:Their prerogative.
Elle:So not only do these to limit does limiting I've said it like 3 times now. The feminine experience to physical characteristics, especially secondary sex organs and secondary sex characteristics that we are assigned at birth, there is so damaging. Because the idea to at least to me of what it means to be a woman is not physical. I'm not like, oh, I'm a woman because I have boobs
Shakyra:and I have hips and I have thighs. I mean, it's
Anthony:it's almost like those are normal things that anyone can have.
Shakyra:Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. A man can have breast too. A man can get breast cancer too.
Shakyra:You know that. Right?
Elle:Mhmm.
Anthony:And I didn't know that for the longest time. Yeah. So that is crazy. And it proves the point that these are not just Especially.
Elle:Feminine or masculine. Trait. And even some of the things when we think of gender versus sex, even some of these, like, things that we would lump into the sex category as purely biological cannot be changed, they can. Like, people with a 9th grade understanding of biology should not be telling us what sex and gender mean. Stop talking, myself included, to ever shut up.