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The Try Tank Podcast is about innovation and the church
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: From the Try Tank Research Institute, this is the Try Tank Podcast. Hey, everyone, it's Father Lorenz Labrija, and welcome to the Try Tank Podcast. This time, it's on. When God gets real. We all have moments when faith moves from idea to experience, when God becomes real in a way that changes everything. Well, those are the stories that our guest has been looking for. And these are the stories that she, through working with Try Tank on an experiment, has been able to document and put together into a podcast. Our guest today is Sarah Holler. Sarah Holler is an Episcopal priest and a spiritual director in Charlotte, North Carolina. She serves her parish while nourishing relationships with her husband, children, stepchildren, seven grandchildren. There should be an award for that or something. Her wise, aging mother and a circle of dear friends. She is deeply curious about the complexity of the human experience and how God meets us in it. So she invites guests from all walks of life to share their stories of when God got real and invites you to reflect on your own. That is the podcast itself. What we're going to talk about is this is an actual experiment for Tri Tech that worked. Yay. They're not all not work, I suppose. Uh, this is one where we got people to share their story of faith on a podcast, which takes a lot of courage, if you ask me. And she's been able to share those stories with others through the podcast. What's interesting is what Sarah has heard from those who have listened to the podcast and what it's meant to them, and how she gets those who are in the podcast to share more and also what it means when we share our story of faith with others. So without any more from me, let's move right on into the Try Tank Podcast. Foreign. Sarah, welcome to the Tri Tank Podcast.
>> Sarah Holler: Thank you. I'm delighted to be here with you. Thanks.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: You know, I think this might be the first time that I have someone on the podcast where we're talking about an experiment that Tri Tech did that has been successful. Not the fact that we fail all the time, but just I think this, and this might actually be a neat way of telling the story of experiments that succeed. So welcome, especially as being the first sort of experiment that has gone, well, uh, to the podcast. So in the introduction, we briefly mentioned about When God Gets Real. But if someone was with you and let's say you were at a reception, and they're like, hey, Sarah Lawrence over there was telling me you do a podcast, Tell me about it, what would you say?
>> Sarah Holler: So I would Say that for a long time I have been really excited and interested in TED Talks and the Moth Radio Hour. They just fascinate me to hear these stories of human lives and real experiences. And I have often been left wondering, well, these are so interesting. But I'm not hearing, I'm not hearing about God moving in people's lives. I'm not hearing people telling a time in their life when God became very tangible and very perceptible. And I'm interested in that because I just know that absolutely has to be going on.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: You're like, we know the spirit is at work here, right?
>> Sarah Holler: Well, the idea would not let me go. And at the time, uh, that this came to me, there were not podcasts. There were the, there were these very, um, large platform kind of opportunities, just a few of them, but there wasn't something simple and accessible. Um, and as I say, it wouldn't let me go. It wouldn't let me go. And finally it came back to me again. Uh, when I started listening in podcasts and enjoying them, I thought, this could be something, uh, I want to investigate it. And when I mentioned it to people, they got excited about it too. They got excited about listening to it. I'm not so sure they were excited about sharing their story.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Well, I'm going to guess they were Episcopalians. And you know how we are about talking to others about our faith. You know, it's private. And then, uh, so because for me it was an out of the blue email that arrived in my inbox saying, hey, my name's Sarah, I have an idea I'd like to chat with you with. That might be crazy. And of course to me was like, that is the best way to get me on a call is to say, I have an idea and it might be crazy. I'm like, I'm there like a bear. And so we spoke about the possibility of doing this podcast when God gets real.
>> Sarah Holler: Yes. And Try Tank, you and Try Tank were so helpful and, ah, connecting me with a podcaster, a producer. And um, I had done a little bit of research about the, the length of time that would be appropriate and the kind of things that make it go. And, um, then I started asking, I started asking people that I knew, I knew well enough to be able to feel comfortable saying, hey, this is, this is an experiment. This is, we're going to try this out. Would you be willing, can you think over the course of your life and your relationship with God, uh, an event, an awakening that you would be willing to, to sort of curate and think about right out and then tell the story and we'll have a conversation about it.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: And that's what is, I think, so beautiful about it. Because, you know, uh, uh, I'm going to shock some Episcopalians here. I think what we're talking about here is testimony. We are asking people to testify about when God got real in their lives. Right. When was it that your faith wasn't just something that was passed down to you by your family? When was it that your faith just wasn't something that you did? But when was it that your faith became almost a part of who you are as a person? And that's the moment when God got real. And you've been getting these stories.
>> Sarah Holler: Yes, exactly. Um, when people sort of realize that they had an experience of being in relationship with God, that God was present to them and that God was abiding with them. And they have been. It's been very interesting about how very diverse those experiences have been. Some of them, uh, you wouldn't. Some of them. It makes sense it would be during a medical crisis. Some of them have been a slow kind of awakening. Some of them have been, uh. One of the most interesting is when someone had the experience of God being in the negative.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: God being in the negative.
>> Sarah Holler: Exactly. So that. So rather than. It's. God was in all the bad things that didn't happen in this. In this circumstance.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Oh, interesting. Okay.
>> Sarah Holler: Right. And this person is an artist and. And is aware of the negative space of the thing. Right.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Oh, now we're getting deep here. Whoa.
>> Sarah Holler: Okay. Yes.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: That's interesting. Okay. Uh, you know what? I. We actually, um. For. For regular listeners, you probably know that, uh, Tritang was awarded a. A Lilly Grant on storytelling. Uh, they did a storytelling initiative about. And. And for. But to put together that grant, we did some research and we asked people how. If they could share with us their story of faith. But most people. And to the point you were saying, I think most people don't think about this. Right. They don't think about when did I first come to realize that God was a real thing in my life? When did I. When did going to church on Sunday stop being a thing I do because I used to do with my mom, or a thing I do because it's a habit, but rather I go because I make the choice to go. And it is an intentional choice so that I can become a better person. And it still turned out that most people don't know how to tell that story. Most of us, even though we know stories deep in our hearts, in our DNA. So we created a chatbot that helped people tell their story of faith. It. It asked them several questions, and then it guided those people through and then came out with like, does this story sound like what you've been trying to tell me? And it gave them the little up, and it's like, oh, my God, that's exactly my story. But what we found out, and we did deep interviews with it, uh, with 20 people, and, uh, 19 of them told us that sharing their own story of their faith actually was a faithful moment for them in the sense that it rekindled their faith a little bit. It reminded them, like, you're right, I do make a choice to go to church on Sunday because of this thing that happened to me at this time, when your words God got real in my life. Uh, I've always loved the title from the day you showed up to talk about it. So we showed that, right? That that is what. So I think that going through the exercise of coming with our story of faith is in and of itself faithful and helps us with our own. But more than that, what I'm hopeful that this will do for the people who have been listening to it is that it has allowed them the opportunity to say, well, where did I see God? You know, where. Where was God? When did God become really in my life? Even if they never share that story, doing that theological reflection, at least at first, it's. It's the first step towards that.
>> Sarah Holler: It's interesting that you say that, because that's what I'm hearing for. From people who hear the podcast. You know, I hadn't really identified that in my life, or I hadn't really thought about that in my life, and I spent some time doing that. And for the people who take the time to write the story, they say, I revisited this in a different way and it's landing differently. And I'm also seeing where God is making God self present in my life in ongoing ways. And I will also say that I've done a couple of retreats with people where they tell. They think about the story when God got real for them in their childhood. And that should not be neglected, that children have ideas that stick with them and are reminded. And one of the things we sort of talk about is who needs to hear this story from you?
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Yeah, that's interesting. You know, and I love how you. How you say that you're hearing from the people, the. The listeners that they are reaching out. That means that that's having an impact. You know, I Just. I just want to point out, by the way, uh, that in any given moment right now in the world, there's. There's something like 5 million podcasts. Most of them are not active podcasts at any given moment. In other podcasts that are actually still doing something that someone didn't try, most podcasts don't make it to 10. So congratulations, you've made it past that. Uh, and most podcasts, I think, are listened to by the person who recorded them and their cat, because out of the millions of podcasts that are out there, very few of them get any sort of traction or listeners. Whereas you're in the top 25%. That means you're doing better than 75% of the podcasts that are out there in the world. With when the God Got Real podcast. It's not thousands of people. It just also shows you how many podcasts are. But it is. I would hope that it's. It's a good number of people that among them is someone who's like, well, maybe I want to share my story of faith, or is moved by their own story of faith. Because you're right, we don't think about that very often. It's something that's just there and we just sort of take for granted.
>> Sarah Holler: Uh, yes, yes. And that's really sort of. I mean, that's intriguing to me because we are wired God. Why? I. I am convinced of this. God wired us to be in community and to share our stories. It's. It's essential to our humanity. And in all times and in all ages and all cultures, people tell stories that matter to them. God matters to us.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Exactly right. Or at least God should matter to us, especially those of us who are in the faith now. I'm curious, and I know that the mix of people you had were people who were people of faith. Uh, I'm sorry, People who were lay people, people who were ordained. You had a deacon amongst them. You had multiple, uh, denominations that were featured in there. I am curious, was there a common thread amongst the. The ones that have been on the podcast so far, as you think deeply about that question.
>> Sarah Holler: As I think deeply about that question. A common thread.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Yeah. Like, did most people find their faith when they were little? Were most of them young stories? Were some of them, um, did you find that most of the people that you happen to talk to that are willing to share were ones who sort of had a. More like a Road to Damascus sort of conversion story of when God got real? Or was it more like Road to Emmaus? Where it was slow, and then they realized that God was there. Only in retrospect, I think
>> Sarah Holler: it's. So when you put the question to me so directly, the thing that they had in common were that they had. That they were churched people.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Okay. Okay.
>> Sarah Holler: So what, what that tells me is that they were in a community that in some form or fashion was articulating, uh, an importance of recognizing God.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Correct?
>> Sarah Holler: Right.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Well, hopefully. Well, it may have been your prompting that actually got them to, to. Because, you know, I traveled quite a bit and it is, it is. I, I, this, I. I'm not kidding. This is a little bit like testimony. And I have yet to find an Episcopal church where testimony is a regular sort of part of their, their, their ongoing life. It would be neat if we did, because I think that we would make it more obvious that God is active in our lives. We just sometimes don't pay attention to it.
>> Sarah Holler: Yes. Well, but here's the thing. I mean, if you're in. Whether or not you're being explicit or not, and I think being expl. Really, really important. I think it's important on a lot, you know, on a lot of different dimensions. Being an example of what I want to say is I have been with people on their deathbed when they said, I know my father loved me, but he never said so. He never said those words. I know he did. Just in that the fact that they cannot say he said so is saying something that they say. They know he loved him, but had he said so, it would have been really rich and really important.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: He.
>> Sarah Holler: Being explicit is really important. So people. But if you're, if you're with other people that are at least talking about God and having some vocabulary, it gives you, um, it gives you an expectation. Right. So what I'm saying is, is that, I mean, uh, I think it's a, it's interesting for people who have not been church to hear someone talking about faith. Well, what does that look like? And what does that mean to me? And who is God in my life?
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Yep, yep, yep, yep. That's, that's, uh, a. Well. Oh, here we are yet again, walking into another sort of, uh, Thou shalt not talk about this topic in the Episcopal Church. Right. Evangelism. In some ways, that gets into evangelism to, to tell people about our, our faith. Uh, we're, we're very good about saying that. Well, we live in a faithful way. So that's how people. Again, it's okay to sometimes bring it up too. I will give you the benefit of that, that you are living in a good and godly way. And, and, but it's also okay to, to invite your friends to, to, to that, you know, they don't have to say yes and it doesn't mean that you're going to stop being there. But you know, if you, if you are to look at evangelism as sort of like a pyramid, at the top of the pyramid, which is the hardest part of it, would be the, I'm going to drop you off somewhere in Africa where you don't speak the language and go and make some, you know, missions and go and, and convert people to Christianity. It's like, that's going to be really hard. The easies most opportunity is the bottom of the pyramid, which is your friends and family, people that you see on a day to day basis, people that are like, you know, see you and it's okay for them to be like, if you want to share with them, like, listen, God was really present in my life. Yes. Uh, and I've got to share this with you because you know, this happened or that happened and I feel like I was, I was spared something or I feel like God pointed me in this direction or I was meant to help this other person. Those are all sort of God moments in our lives that we just don't talk a lot about. And the more we can normalize that, I think the better it'd be. And I hope your podcast is doing some of that for people.
>> Sarah Holler: Excellent. Here's the thing. All you're doing is telling the truth of, uh, your life. You can't be argued out of it. You don't need to persuade anyone else about. You're just saying this is the truth of my life and I care about you and I want to share my real self with you. And it's not about, you know, wrestling somebody to the ground and hitting them over the head with a treatise.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Yeah, never do that. That is not evangelism. That's called assault. For the record, that is just assault. So as we look ahead, uh, uh, as to what will be in season two, I know we were talking a little bit about the fact that you might be looking into getting some more people from some of our, you know, close denominations in the main lines. So the Protestants, the, the process, we are all the Presbyterians, the Lutherans, some Methodists, uh, or something. I think that will be interesting to see also. And I think for us as mainly Episcopalians to hear, oh, look, their story of faith is not that different than mine. You know, it's Sort of similar. God is also active in their life and God became real in their lives too. I think that's kind of exciting.
>> Sarah Holler: Me too. I think it's very exciting. Uh, I think it's good for us to hear the breadth and depth in various ways. One of my favorite, one of my favorite saying is God loves infinite variety.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: There you go. There you go. So don't surprise you of, of these conversations did anything like, jump out? I just like, I was not expecting that.
>> Sarah Holler: Well, as I said, they have been very, I mean, they are very, very diverse. And um, again, it's people, uh, this is something, you know, it's, it's intimate. A relationship with God is intimate. And their, uh, and their, and their willingness or God's call to them to share it, um, has not been surprising. But, but, uh, I, I, I, I hold it gingerly and tenderly.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Well, the, yeah, these are sacred stories. What you're holding sacred stories. They are very much sacred stories and they need to be handled with care. Yeah, this is, this is something else. I think that actually I brought that up because before, if any priest who's listening to us or anyone who just wants to go ask people about their story of faith, a Good instinct, uh, we should do more of that. But b, be careful, you know, uh, even a look, if you give someone a look that says like, I'm judging you right now or you're questioning something, right. When you were saying it's your story to tell, the one thing I kept thinking about is like, and there is no wrong story. Right. That you cannot be. There's no wrong answer to the question of when did God get real in your life? Because it's your life. I can't tell you. But this is, you know, where we have to hold it with the sacredness of what it is almost, uh, you know, for, for those of us with a more high church proclivity, uh, how we hold the, uh, the Eucharist. Right. Once, once it's there, you have to reference it as to the fact that this is very special what you're holding and they're sharing with you something that they probably haven't shared with many people in their life.
>> Sarah Holler: Exactly, exactly. And it does feel it in the, in, in the moment, in the presence of that. It feels holy. Holy.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: It is. Oh, it absolutely sounds. And it feels holy because it is holy. I would, I would venture, you know, in some ways. Do you remember those Chicken Soup for the Soul books that used to be a thing in the 90s. Amazing myself here on the podcast people uh, these stories will remind me of that because they're very human stories. Right. There's no denying after listening to these stories. And I encourage everyone, if you, if you have a, a moment to, to go and check out some of these stories at some point, just, just go there. They are faith filled. They will make you feel better about life and yourself and faith and all. But they're very human stories which should be a reminder to us that practicing the presence of God, as Lawrence would say, is, is all around. God is always all around us doing stuff, doing things. And it's up to us to sort of notice when God is doing those things.
>> Sarah Holler: Exactly. And it's, it's almost like a habit. Once you have identified an experience, an awakening, um, you have that experience and that makes it easier for you to see the next one and the next one and the next one.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: There you go. Kind of like when you buy a car of a certain color and then you see everybody's got that color of the car. It's like, oh, I thought I was the only one. So, uh, practically speaking. Well, actually, yeah. Let's talk a little bit about your retreats. M. You mentioned, uh, uh, a few minutes ago, when you, when you do these retreats, are they like storytelling retreats? Come and share your story type? Uh, retreats,
>> Sarah Holler: yes. So it's an idea that you're. You, you come and um, we talk a moment about. A hot moment, about what storytelling means to us as humans, why we do it. We talk about how, how it is that the story of Jesus post resurrection, how did the world, did it get out in the world? How? Because there was no, there was no rational reason for it to, to get out of Galilee, get out Jerusalem. It was dangerous. But people had this experience. They had to share their story. God, God was very real to them and they had to. Something within them said they had to tell the story. And God is still working and we still have our stories. And so they take them, they take some time to go apart and write a story from their childhood. They come back and they share their story in small, uh, table setting. They do the same thing with one from their adulthood and they share that. And then there's some reflection about how, what it meant to them going forward and who it is they would feel comfortable or feel called to share their story with when they leave.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Oh, interesting. So you're actually being, uh, I guess intentional or proactive about them going and sharing that story with others and how has it been received? How has the, the retreat gone? Well,
>> Sarah Holler: people have said this is really meaningful to me and I, I, I know who I need to tell this story to and I'm excited or I'm, I'm, I'm going to be intentional. Intentional about doing that.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Yeah. There you go. Wow. If someone, uh, if someone who's listening to us, either themselves or has someone in their orbit that they think would want to share their story, would be a good candidate to share their story. How can they get a hold of you to, to, to, to let you know that they're interested so they can
>> Sarah Holler: email me Sarah at When God Got Real dot com.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Excellent and very simple. Sarah is that's S A R A H, uh, you know, the youngins nowadays without these not just kidding. Edwing.com and uh, or anyone can just. If you can't remember, just remember Lorenzo at Try Tank and I'll get it to you. Um, I just want to say congratulations again. Uh, you can't see because this is only on audio, but I am smiling a huge smile just knowing that this was an experiment that succeeded. That we were able to get people to share their stories of faith and that not only were we able to get those stories of faith, but that they were deep, they were meaningful, and that it leads to other things. As people listen to the stories and hear those stories, we are changed. Uh, which is a beautiful thing, isn't it? To, to realize like I, Lawrence Labrija, huh, Can be changed by Sarah's story of faith of When Sar. When God Got real. For Sarah, that interaction can also have an impact on me and change me as a person. And that, that's, that's a powerful thing to know.
>> Sarah Holler: It is powerful. It is powerful. And that's God's good grace.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: God is good all the time, as we say. Sarah, thanks so much for joining us again. When God Got Real.com is the website and um, you for, for listeners. In fact, if you're in your car right now, as soon as we're done here, because we're not quite done, as soon as we're done here with the podcast, go on over and, and just go to your, wherever you get your podcast and look for When God Got Real and you can listen to the podcast, uh, have it continue to go up on the ranking so that it is, you know, top 10 percentile, uh, better than 90 of the others. So Sarah, thanks so much for the work you're doing. Thanks so much for your ministry and, and for continuing to do this work with Tri Tech. I really, really appreciate that, that you.
>> Sarah Holler: Oh, thank you. Thank you for your support. It is much appreciated.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Excellent. Thanks for listening. Please subscribe and be sure to leave a review. To learn more About TriTech, visit tritank.org Be sure to sign up for our monthly newsletter where you can keep up with all of our experiments. The Try Tank Podcast is a production of Try Tank in association with Resonate Media. Try Tank is a joint venture between Virginia Theological Seminary and General Theological Seminary. Again, thanks for joining us. I'm, um, Father Lorenzo Labrija. Until next time, May God bless you.