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More to the Story with Dr. Andy Miller III is a podcast exploring theology in the orthodox Wesleyan tradition. Hear engaging interviews and musings from Dr. Miller each week.
Transcript:
Andy Miller III: All right, friends, I am here on the 9th of 9 interviews that I have done in the 9th one to be published. I'm delighted to welcome into the Podcast, John Byers, who serves, I believe, in Lagrange, Georgia, is that where you serve John.
John Beyers: That is correct. Just on the southern edge of the Metro Atlanta area.
Andy Miller III: Gotcha well, welcome to the podcast thanks for making time for me here.
John Beyers: Thank you for these conversations.
Andy Miller III: Absolutely well, it's it's been a real delight for me, and and forgive me, and some of you might be. This might be the 1st interview that you all have seen. But part of the reason it's been fun for me is, I've just got to spend time with these great folks, and I've enjoyed getting to meet them, and I imagine the same will be the case with you. Actually, John, why don't you go and say you? You have somebody in your church that has a connection to my family, and we just found out about that. So that was kind of fun.
John Beyers: Right. The Cox family at Weston Methodist Church of the Drains has a long Salvation Army history and so we've discussed that and and the history, and of course, a strong Wesleyan connection through the Salvation Army. So that's been a delight to be able to discuss together.
Andy Miller III: And your cock the the family in your the cox, as you know, their grandfather was the famous Sydney Cox, who everybody probably knows something he did, and it was write this song deep in the.
John Beyers: And wide. Yes.
Andy Miller III: Wide, which he intended it to be a prayer course, and he was a little disappointed. That ended up becoming a children's course where you have hmm, or whatever it is, so there it is.
John Beyers: I always knew the course, but I never knew the stanza, so I really enjoy reading and understanding the theology of the stanzas. I mean. It's great evangelical orthodox theology about Christ and his you know, giving Himself for us on the cross. And then, the wonderful refrain that that I I learned somewhere in myf across the.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, sure, sure, absolutely.
Andy Miller III: Well, John, as we're getting to know you just a little bit here. And this is all anticipating what's coming at the convening General Conference in Costa Rica later in the month of September. I'd love to just give a 2 min version of how you came to know Jesus, and I am going to time you here. I won't cut you off, but it's it's giving you 2 min here.
John Beyers: Well, thank you. I've never known a moment in my life when the name of the Lord Jesus wasn't honored and revered and central in my life.
John Beyers: nor a time when the influence of the Methodist Church was not extremely important. Now I was born before merger, so I was born into the Methodist Church.
John Beyers: but I had really an alder's gate awakening a little bit later in life. It was as a freshman at Baylor University, through the remarkable ministry of the 1st United Methodist Church of Waco, Texas, and the Reverend Dick Freeman, and I remember very, very clearly having that that awakening to experience the fullness
John Beyers: of salvation in Jesus Christ, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. And with that came almost immediately a call to ministry. It was not something that I was expecting. It was not something I was anticipating, but I was just. I was just flooded with this desire, this this hunger for the Word of God in this sense that I was intended to be in his service.
John Beyers: I thought I was going to be an attorney, obviously studying the laws of human beings, but he had in mind for me to study his word, his law, and to share it with others, and because of the remarkable ministry of this Church, I remember being given the opportunity to give voice
John Beyers: to that calling. I remember having a conversation with the senior Minister, Reverend Dick Freeman in his very Texas way. So Lord's got a call on your life, doesn't he, boy? Well, yes, sir, Reverend Freeman, indeed he does.
John Beyers: and he helped me talk that through and and through that experience I sort of adopted Jesus response to a very anxious Mary and Joseph when they thought he was lost in Jerusalem, and he declared I must be about my Father's business.
John Beyers: and from from that moment it was really clear that my life's calling was to be in his service, and to be ordained as minister in the in the Methodist tradition, and I've been serving under appointments since 1,987, and it's not always been an easy experience. But man, has it been a fulfilling experience?
John Beyers: I've reflected a lot recently, over the last couple of years, through the very difficult process of of disaffiliation, a health crisis planting a new global Methodist church. You know, I've always believed in the doctrine of God's providence and preached it and taught it. But over the last 16 months, especially, I have lived the providence of God. I I have. I've been fully supported by, and and given grace by the providence of God, to to contend
John Beyers: for the faith, and to be in partnership with the congregation that has contended for the faith. So part of my story is, I'm I'm just really grateful for the providence of God, the saving grace of the Lord Jesus, the the filling of the Holy Spirit, and the high calling and privilege of being one of Mr. Wesley's preachers.
Andy Miller III: Amen. Amen. Well, I like that little addendum of Providence to close it out, even though it took us an extra 40 seconds. I just want to acknowledge the time. You're in good shape, though there's no buzzers, nothing like that.
John Beyers: Thank you.
Andy Miller III: It's coming around. Yeah. And and I'm curious. So you, when Baylor went to Baylor in Texas, and now you serve in Georgia, so were you from Texas, and then moved to Georgia? Or how did that all work.
John Beyers: Yes, my family was from Dallas, and my brothers and I were all born in Dallas actually grew up in park cities near Smu, I was going to go to Smu. That's where my mom had gone. My maternal grandfather had gone, but
John Beyers: my dad was transferred to the Atlanta area when I was fixing to start the 4th grade. So the very strong Texas ties and family I ended up growing up in in the North Atlanta suburb of Dunwoody, but back and forth on i. 20, before I. 20, was even finished. Through your neck of the woods.
Andy Miller III: Indeed.
John Beyers: On the way back and forth during the summertime to Dallas. But our strong Texas ties are important. But I went to visit Smu, and something just wasn't right in my spirit. We had family ties in Waco, which is where my mother's family was from.
John Beyers: and a family member who had been on the faculty at Baylor, and and just sort of almost as a whim we went down to visit, and there was a piece that passed all understanding when I walked onto the Baylor campus, and I give thanks again for the providence of God leading me to that place where he awakened me and gave me the opportunity to live into his purpose for my life.
Andy Miller III: Absolutely beautiful. One of the things is important for us. As we are establishing ourselves as a new denomination, it's emerging in a beautiful way. There is this sense of differentiation that is important
Andy Miller III: for any denomination. Well, why would there? Why wouldn't we just take all of the churches that disaffiliated and join another movement. Join another denomination, or even just be generically evangelical. A lot of churches function that way, anyhow. But I'm curious, John, what you think, makes a Wesley and Christian a Wesleyan Christian?
John Beyers: Well for me it's assurance the witness of the spirit, of course. I think Mr. Wesley summed it up best in 1742, and his character of a Methodist when he talks about one who who really knows the love of God spread abroad in his heart through the Holy Spirit, the Holy Ghost that's given to him who loves the Lord with his heart, mind, soul, and strength, has has a strong sense of an inner witness of the Spirit of God, but but that witness is intended to be lived out
John Beyers: in society with others for the sake of others. But I think the unique gift that perhaps we offer as evangelical orthodox
John Beyers: spirit filled Wesleyans. Is this is this capacity to really know that you know that you know the the assurance of God's grace, the saving grace of God, the filling of the Holy Spirit, which is not just to say, Oh, got that checked off, you know, on my way to heaven. Now I can
John Beyers: live. However, I want to live. No, as a beginning point to living a life that really matters, and growing in grace, and moving toward that, that marvelous gift of entire sanctification, of perfect love that really does cast out
John Beyers: sin and and overcome the reality of sin and and living life, of of that kind, of
John Beyers: of a pure love of God for the sake of others. So I think Mr. Wesley gets it right, and his own experience of assurance. His wonderful writing on the witness of the Spirit is something that uniquely identifies orthodox, evangelical spirit filled Methodist Christians.
Andy Miller III: Amen. Oh, I love all of those adjectives that you use to describe that. They're they're all important. And I I like, I like that. You're willing to use the word evangelical. Some people would say, well, and I've had people say to me, Andy, let's be careful with some of these. Some of this language, you know, you at Wbs seem to say that a lot, and I I know like like even the term evangelical. Because some people see that as a political party a political entity.
Andy Miller III: But I still maintain there's a well, I won't say why I do it. But I'm curious. Do you think we should use the link, the word evangelical to describe ourselves as a global Methodist church?
John Beyers: Absolutely because the Uang Alion, the good news, the good message, changed my life.
John Beyers: It is the central tenet of the Christian faith. This unique good news of God acting uniquely and intentionally in the person and work of Jesus Christ. I. Yes, it evangelical, may have been co-opted by some, but that doesn't diminish the power of the Word itself, and what it really means. If we understand the Greek behind the word evangelical, and that is always pointing us to Jesus. The Word of God, written.
John Beyers: which is infallibly true to the Word of God, risen
John Beyers: in the person and work of Jesus Christ.
Andy Miller III: Amen! Amen! Indeed! That has happened.
Andy Miller III: John! At at this stage there are a couple of things
Andy Miller III: in in a month from now, after the convening conference is over, we'll know the direction of
Andy Miller III: how the Church feels about the Episcopacy and what what is vote in there? Basically 3 options that could emerge. One is that we stick with the transitional book of disciplines plan which would keep bishops Webb and Jones in place. Another would be the Florida hybrid plan, which has a residential bishop. But then the plan that you're a part of
Andy Miller III: in this sense. Just by virtue of your nomination, is calling for more a general superintendency.
Andy Miller III: Why, John, did you respond or answer, or affirm the nomination that came of your candidacy? I'm just curious why you would want to serve in this role.
John Beyers: Well, I'm a self, confessed Wesley. Nerd, okay, I rejoice in the circumstances on in which God really honored the Methodist revival movement in America, especially after the the Revolutionary War, principally through Bishop Francis Asbury, the American saint.
John Beyers: and how there was this strong sense of guarding the faith, defending the faith, teaching the Faith from an enthusiastic perspective. I I get excited about theology and doctrine. I I think orthodoxy leads to orthopraxy, right believing really leads to right living.
John Beyers: and the capacity to be set free, perhaps, from the overwhelming sense of administration which characterized our former tribe, and really being able to lean into spiritual doctrinal teaching and preaching, and equipping all from an enthusiastic and life
John Beyers: changing life, affirming perspective, and and being able to share that as as a cheerleader for the faith, as one that believes our our unique Wesleyan accent really adds something to the conversation, because we can have that personal experience that leads to a a broader witness and and a real sense of confidence in who we are.
John Beyers: and I think to reclaim a sense of doctrine matters, I I believe, for Mr. Wesley. A a sense of of doctrinal consensus was a primary importance for the stability of the Methodist societies. Having been a member of the World Methodist Council for 13 years. There are
John Beyers: many different ways. Methodist churches are organized, President, vice president, bishops, archbishops, different ways, clergy, vest different styles of worship. But what unites us is what we believe doctrinally about God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and and how we, how we meet Him.
John Beyers: how he lives in us, how he equips us, and and to be able to be an advocate, to, to inspire others, to aspire.
John Beyers: so that life that really lives has a real resonance in my heart as it did. I, I believe, for the Episcopal leaders of of early Methodism.
Andy Miller III: And and so.
Andy Miller III: as you like have accepted this, I'm just imagine that your colleagues in the North Georgia Conference.
Andy Miller III: saw some experiences that you had, that maybe would equip you for this moment beyond just that passion. But but I appreciate that you highlighted that because that's going to be the role and not just a passion, but the the teaching, shepherding role of of ensuring proper doctrine is contended for. I think, like that. That's at the foundation for sure. But I mean, what what type of experiences did you have even in the Umc that position in even in this transition? Transitory time?
Andy Miller III: that it kind of equipped you for this moment.
John Beyers: Well, I found across my years of serving under episcopal appointments since 1987, that people really are hungry for the Word of God, and how it all fits together, and how it makes a practical impact in their lives. And and the Lord's equipped me in ways that I don't really even fully understand that every church I've served has has grown in membership and discipleship, and and the response of stewardship and service.
John Beyers: And and I I really do believe it's pointing people back to the the matchless Word of God, inspired authoritative, infallible Word of God.
John Beyers: and and how it fits together from a Wesleyan framework, the Ordo salutus and and less linear and more circular. We're we're always being called. We're always being justified. We're always being sanctified. And how that really does bring life to people, and they want to come to church. They want to get involved in small group discipleship. They want to serve. They want to bring their Bibles.
John Beyers: Sure, sure, I love to hear pages turning on Sunday morning. So I I think the teaching and preaching ministry with enthusiasm, with confidence, certainty communicating in a way to others that they could receive that confidence and certainty. Is something that
John Beyers: that I believe God has used in in my life and my ministry, and the 6 congregations that I've served. Yeah.
Andy Miller III: Wonderful. I.
Andy Miller III: One of the things is important for this next phase of Methodism, particularly because there would be some who would. Actually, I just
Andy Miller III: bumped into somebody a politician the other day. And they, I said, where I I'm serving as a President of Wesley Biblical Seminary, he says. Oh, do you even believe in the Bible there? And I oh, I was like, it's pretty tough. Well, in part. The reason that he might have felt that is because there are people who have been, use the word Methodist or Wesleyan
Andy Miller III: who he had reason and believe they didn't believe in the authority and inspiration of Scripture. So I I think, obviously, we're able to identify ourselves with as a global Methodist church. That that isn't just a response, but is a renewal of what like as you've often described in this interview, Mr. Wesley's original vision. I'm I'm curious. If you could just outline for us the how you've
Andy Miller III: understand the inspiration and authority of Scripture. And why? That's important for this moment.
John Beyers: I think early in my life God gave me the gift of a high view of Scripture. Now I have mined that gift, but i i i think I I came into being with a sense of of a reverent respect for the revealed Word of God in the Bible.
John Beyers: and therefore I approach God's Word as authoritative, and what I don't understand yet says more about me than it does God's Word. So I have an inherent sense of a high view of Scripture which has never
John Beyers: let me down, and I love getting behind the Greek and the Hebrew. I love using the very best of our academic skills. What was the setting? What is the language saying? What's being communicated? Because I believe that God has a central message in every passage? Yes, it was contextual to a different time, but the principle, the application, is universal. Thus the fact that the Holy Spirit has preserved it, those passages in the Canon of Scripture. So I I
John Beyers: I
John Beyers: I have high view Scripture.
John Beyers: I went to seminary. I didn't realize that I went to the seminary that seemed to have as its purpose to tear down everything, I believe, and then, unfortunately, just sort of leave me there. i i i sort of backed into becoming an apologist
John Beyers: for the faith and an apologist for the Wesleyan way of faith because of the way that I was challenged. And I think that sharpened my skills. That helped me to go deeper, and I have a more profound sense of the truthfulness, the authority of God's Word, the relevance of God's Word now
John Beyers: than I ever have in the past, and I think the members of the churches I've served. They want
John Beyers: to grow in that regard. They want to be confident and know why
John Beyers: the trained mind and the warm heart is to me what makes a Methodist effective in the Christian community today.
Andy Miller III: Amen. Well, you use a lot of words, truthful, authoritative, infallible. At at Wbs, and in place like Asbury Seminary, use language and say we believe the Bible is without error, and all that affirms it's it has come to us perfectly, and it will do all that's intended to do we? We use a Chicago statement on an errancy as something that we affirm at Wbs. As a way to kind of get beyond some of the
Andy Miller III: nuances that people might think, oh, well, we don't want to necessarily be a 6 day creationist, or something like that. Not that I'm opposed to that, but we don't
Andy Miller III: make that a requirement at Wbs. I'm curious. Are you comfortable? With the language of inerrancy?
John Beyers: I I've studied the 3 Chicago statements. I see an errantcy and infallibility almost as 2 sides of 1 point. I I know their technical differences. I believe the autographs are absolutely without error and incapable of teaching error, and I believe that the manuscripts that we have received, though they are mighty close and mighty faithful. All the way back to
John Beyers: being at Manchester, John Ryland, a couple of years ago, and.
Andy Miller III: And the.
John Beyers: Presence of p. 52, I mean perhaps the oldest extant piece of Scripture, maybe around a hundred or 125. Where? But the famous question is asked, I mean, who do you say that I am? But.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, sure. Yeah, you know.
John Beyers: And i i i believe I'm comfortable with inheriting. I prefer Mr. Wesley's word, infallible from his teaching on the means of grace and referencing. Second, Timothy, 3, 15, and 16, and then that often leads to conversations that I've had with colleagues and members. Well, what do you mean by that?
Andy Miller III: For sure, for sure.
John Beyers: For some I I find inerrant they just sort of dismiss.
John Beyers: And that's unfortunate. But there's something about infallible that's almost one wants to lean in and know a little bit more about that. And and so I mean the Bible's
John Beyers: says it is. I mean.
Andy Miller III: Where it is, it is what it says about itself. Yeah.
John Beyers: And and you know.
Andy Miller III: The law of the word Lord is perfect. Yeah.
John Beyers: Man. Wesley has no defect, no excess. Yeah, you know, in his preference to the notes upon the New Testament, and I honestly believe that
John Beyers: with all of my heart
John Beyers: I believe that, and I want to lead others to believe that too, tested
John Beyers: to be found faithful.
John Beyers: so that when everything else is shaking around us. There is the firm foundation, the anchor that we find in the matchless Word of God always.
Andy Miller III: Yes, indeed. Yeah, I I firmly. I think we have to use the appropriate language that will help us communicate what we believe God has done in space and time as clearly as possible at those moments. And so if if it gets in the way, then we want to be careful. What what I've generally sensed is that I just want to use the most reverent language that I can. And I think that classical tradition that Wesley was a part of is finds his best expression
Andy Miller III: and the inerrancy. Tradition, I know, of course, is not necessarily something that's a part of of
Andy Miller III: a bit been in the many of the United Methodist, or even some other Wesleyan denominations. Traditions? But I think it can be helpful at this moment, you know one reason John is like as I've gone in and spoken at a variety of churches with with churches who have disaffiliated, who are thinking about affiliating as I've articulated Wbs's stance, I see since. Kind of like a a calming like. Oh, you mean, we can affirm that you know.
John Beyers: 82.
Andy Miller III: That's that's not a Baptist doctrine like no, no, like your evangelical Wesleyans were a part of this, the State stating the helping to form the Chicago statements. As you indicated, I appreciate you clarifying that, too. So yeah, I I appreciate the the heart and the mind behind what you just said.
John Beyers: You're an E. You're an enthusiastic and errantist.
Andy Miller III: The.
John Beyers: Probably really close, if not absolutely 2 brothers of different mothers. In that regard, it's just maybe a little bit of a technical difference between the 2 words, but I I believe.
Andy Miller III: Inerrantist would have.
John Beyers: Permanent.
Andy Miller III: Fallibility, too, I mean no, I I know I mean I don't. I I think they there might just be a preference for a language, but I have no no problem with that. There's historical connections of what might have happened with the fuller seminaries kind of like starting to emphasize that language, but then I I digress John.
John Beyers: But to your point, let me just say one more.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah.
John Beyers: Methodists want to know that this has been a a doctrine, so to speak, from historic Methodism all the way back to the West. So this is not importing something new this is living into who we should have always been.
John Beyers: Why, we didn't use that word more readily, or even affirm ourselves as being Creedal vis-a-vis, the Nicene Creed, the Apostles Creed, which clearly clearly the West as evangelical Armenian Anglicans were, I think, we missed something along the way. I just want us to reclaim who we've always been, or or were intended.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, that's right. Intended. Yeah, that's right, cause it, it's sadly we haven't always been who we were intended to be. And you know, of course, that's also not who I'm becoming, who God's sanctifying me to become. So. I'm thankful that we we can live in that tension. But there have been heretical traps that have come in light of a diminished view of Scripture. So I just want to use the strongest language possible to show that I believe God has revealed Himself in space and time.
John Beyers: Technically, yes.
Andy Miller III: Perfectly. I love that word too perfect. Yeah.
Andy Miller III: maybe maybe that's even better. All right. So, John, you've led 6 churches, and you you described how God has blessed that work that's happened in those communities of faith. What are you? And because that you're a leader. And so I'm curious. What do you think might need to be unlearned by global Methodist churches, particularly those coming out of United Methodism? And what needs to be learned.
John Beyers: Since the day that I received my license preach it strikes me that we've been in an adversarial role, or at least those who came along in the United Methodist tradition, because, just as I was coming in, the theological statement in the Book of Discipline was being rewritten, corrected from the mistakes, particularly of 1,972, and theological pluralism, and all of that, and some that I,
John Beyers: that turned out to be great heroes of the Faith for me were working on those statements that ended up being in the, in the discipline, in the late eighties and and early nineties. I I think we we still have some post denominational stress
John Beyers: syndrome, and we need to unlearn this combative state, this lack of trusting each other, this assuming that the shoe is going to drop and and begin to see ourselves as
John Beyers: colleagues in the faith again. Since we don't have a trust clause, we don't have guaranteed appointments. We shouldn't be in this competitive mode anymore. We we shouldn't be wanting these offices of power, since at least right now I'm a presiding elder, and I do it as a mission outreach, because my congregation is willing for me to take that time to help encourage the churches and and the superlative 7th district of the.
Andy Miller III: There you go!
John Beyers: Of the North Georgia Conference, a. A. As well as to work with our Lay Empowerment Institute, because seeing lay people's eyes come alive because there really is something to believe. And
John Beyers: we need to learn again that we can trust each other, that we have a theology that is stout.
John Beyers: that is historic, that is life affirming and life changing, and and be able to teach that with confidence again, and
John Beyers: maybe to say with Mr. Wesley, I'm a Bible bigot, I mean. I I trust it in all things great and small, and you can, too.
John Beyers: and not check your brain. In fact.
Andy Miller III: Amen! Amen!
John Beyers: It's. It's the greatest volumes in historic libraries, and has been spilled over. Why, God's Word is what it is, and transforming as it promises to be so. Lord, help us learn again. We can trust each other, we can trust the Word of God. We can trust you, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and that you intend for us to engage the world in real transformation.
Andy Miller III: Amen.
Andy Miller III: When we talk about engaging the world. You know, John, there are approximately 3 billion people in the world who have no access to the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Andy Miller III: How would you give voice to this crisis and mobilize local churches which make up the Gmc. To be responsive to it?
John Beyers: Well, it all comes down to Jesus. Do we really believe he is
John Beyers: the way, the truth, the like the life. That definite article in the Greek is important, or is he simply a way.
John Beyers: a truth.
John Beyers: a a form of life for people that sort of look like us from our culture.
John Beyers: no reclaiming a sense of the infallible Word of God and centrality of Christ and His cross, then becomes the motivation, because life is not worth living in my judgment, without the Lord Jesus Christ. Now, I'm not here to tell you what's wrong with your belief system.
John Beyers: I'm here to tell you what's absolutely right about receiving Jesus as Savior and Lord, knowing that one sins are forgiving, tasting the fullness of the Holy Spirit living into our giftedness.
John Beyers: I I believe, Romans 2, 4, that it's God's kindness that leads us to repentance, which means we choose to build relationships across all the divides that we have constructed, not to say, Oh, I'm after you. I've got to mark off another person that comes to Christ. But genuinely building relational evangelism with the hope that someday someday someone would ask, What's different about you?
John Beyers: Why do you give in the way that you give?
John Beyers: Why do you respond to challenges in the way that you respond. Why do you see the glass half full rather than half empty?
John Beyers: And in those relational bonds, hands on mission engagement hands on relationships being that witness of kindness that leads us to repentance because he has been kind
John Beyers: to us, and and I don't believe it's putting anybody down and their culture their religious system again. I'm not telling you what's wrong or or presuming to judge your system. I just want you to know what I believe is absolutely right about Jesus, and how the universal message of Jesus has taken the whole world.
John Beyers: and and brought hope
John Beyers: and salvation and purpose.
John Beyers: types of every culture, every race, every every bloodline, every ethnicity, the message of Jesus.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, wait, John, when you think about what's getting to countries where they don't have access to the gospel or languages, or even have a written language. How? How can the global Methodist church respond? Like, yeah, we get the evangelistic impulse that has to be at the heart of all that we do. But do we start? A global Methodist Church Mission agency from within the denomination.
Andy Miller III: do we? I mean, what are some practical steps that we would take to do that.
John Beyers: That's a really good question, Andy, because right now I'm institution averse.
Andy Miller III: I'm creating another.
John Beyers: Board of a General Board of, or whatever, even though I love the witness of the Board of Evangelism and Harry Dinman, and you know there were times when boards actually made a positive difference
John Beyers: how we build that I'm not entirely sure. At this point I just know the mission and and evangelistic impulse that I feel at times we're the only Bible people can read, but finding a way, then, to to bring the Word of God in the colloquial, the the
John Beyers: the common language of the day. I have a Bible in pigeon English
John Beyers: when I visited Papua, New Guinea, and I love the fact that God is referred to as the Bic pella.
John Beyers: The big fellow is pigeon English for God the Father Almighty.
John Beyers: How we do that, Andy, I'm not entirely sure I'm just not sure that it's gonna be
John Beyers: institution building again, but partnerships.
Andy Miller III: Yes, yes.
John Beyers: How we do all that.
John Beyers: It's it's worth considering. But I just I just don't know that I want it to be a an institution that doesn't.
Andy Miller III: I'm with you. I was trying to set you up for that, too, to talk about partnerships. When you think about other groups. And, for instance, I imagine your church didn't. Just once you became Gmc. Or no longer. The Umc stopped giving to missions. I imagine that you did like so what? What does it look like for us to move away from being too institutional and finding partners? Is that a better way for us?
John Beyers: I think it is, and finding trustworthy partners that share a common theology and doctrine and and approach is really important, and I know that there are those partners, whether it be someone like a Tms global here in the Atlanta area, to be able to advance the mission of Christ unapologetically within a Wesleyan framework. But instead of recreating the wheel, we're adding value to proven
John Beyers: organizations proven outreach ministries that we can be a part of that we can learn from that. Hopefully, we can add value to and engage members of local churches at the same time, in in advancing our mission and ministry together.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, I think the same thing could be said with our approach towards pastoral education. In seminaries like seminaries, I believe, exist, we say, at Wbs. We exist to develop trusted leaders for faithful churches.
John Beyers: Amen!
Andy Miller III: Now along the way we've developed some great scholars, people like Tom Mccall, Jerome van Kiichen. I could go through all the people lists of our people who are writing books with the, you know, top academic presses around the world, making a difference in the scholarly community. But we primarily exist to serve churches, and so when when what's happened in the gold Methodist Church, we had never served the United Methodist Church. I I way beyond my history at Wb.
Andy Miller III: We never knew why we could never get approved by the University Senate. I use that actually as a badge of honor these days.
John Beyers: Jesus.
Andy Miller III: But at the same time, like now, the global Methodist church comes around, says, this is what we're looking for, at least in the transitional book of discipline. This is what we're looking for. And so, when I was serving as Dean before serving as President, we then developed a model that fit the church, the church's need, and that's then led. And what you said. It's not only is it that we're able to serve the gold Methodist Church, but there's a way
Andy Miller III: we in the scholars that we have at Wbs, and the infrastructure we have, we're fulfill. We're blessed. We're doing more of what God has called us to do through theological education, as would be the case with Oms. Tms, wgm, I allies doing their sort of their piece. There's different different nonprofit groups that are existing serving the church. So I think there is a beautiful way that we're able to connect.
Andy Miller III: I'd be glad to have you comment on that some more. But also I just what how
Andy Miller III: talk to me this this won't have anything to do with if you serve as an interim, Bishop.
Andy Miller III: But I'm I'm curious if what you think theological education and pastoral education should look like in this
Andy Miller III: emerging moment in global Methodism.
John Beyers: Well. Mr. Wesley never saw himself as a systematic theologian. He never saw himself as a a theologian of theologians. He focused on his word practical divinity, or practical Christianity? How do we teach the very best of the tradition, honoring the mind.
John Beyers: honoring reason.
John Beyers: embracing experience, which I do think is a unique addition to the Anglican model of Scripture being illuminated by tradition and reason, you know, vivified by the experience of God's Word. How do we bring that alive in a theological education setting where it's focused on. Okay, how do we share that in practical ways? How do we equip others
John Beyers: with what we are learning. Not just so we can say we've learned it, or we've read certain theologians. But what is the impact of the teaching? And how does it. Translate, then, into our unique settings
John Beyers: one heart at a time, equipping people for holiness of of heart and life, to to really make a difference in the world so practical application, practical divinity.
John Beyers: as I think Wesley did with his lay Preachers, you know, publishing little tracks that were very clear about what to believe, and why to believe it, and expected to teach
John Beyers: this and and live this doctrine personally, and share it within their societies?
John Beyers: I believe we have schools of theology right now that are enabling that certainly Wbs. I love what's happening with Wesley House of studies at Truth Seminary at Baylor, because that's that place very close to my heart. I know. Just down the road at Samford, in Birmingham something very similar is taking place, and Tim Tenant going there, so it it excites me to see these historic institutions
John Beyers: opening their hearts
John Beyers: to the Wesleyan way, and partnering with us, working both ways to enable theological education.
Andy Miller III: Yes, that's great. Well, John, it's been a real delight to hear from you today. Is there anything that I didn't ask you that you'd like to to speak to.
John Beyers: Oh, gosh! There's so much I I'm just excited about the particular time in which we live. I always know that I'm with with global Methodist, because we all smell like smoke.
John Beyers: We've all been in the fire. Some of us have been singed more than others, but we share a common experience that I believe has called us back to to Jude. 1, 3. We have chosen to contend for the faith once and for all delivered to God's holy people.
John Beyers: we may we never lose that passion for defending, contending, advancing the faith, standing on the matchless Word of God, seeking to reach others in his name, and finding great joy.
John Beyers: and living out the call of Jesus Christ.
Andy Miller III: Well, that is a great way for me to finish these 9 interviews. Thank you so much for your time, John. Look forward to getting to meet you in Costa Rica and work with you in the future. As we continue to move forward in this great moment, that God has provided us this wonderful time that we get to live at the start of this exciting new denomination. So thank you again for your time today, John.
John Beyers: Andy, you're awesome. Thank you for the kindness of doing these hosting these conversations. God bless you! Look forward to seeing you in Costa Rica.