Catholic Education Matters | Raising Souls in a Noisy World: Rolando Islas on the Heart of Catholic Education

This episode of Catholic Education Matters features a deep, wide-ranging conversation between host Troy Van Vliet and philosopher and Catholic educator Rolando Islas (making his second appearance on the show) on the challenges and opportunities facing Catholic education today. The discussion explores the meaning and purpose of Catholic liberal arts, the importance of grounding students in moral philosophy, and the historical shift from an outward, God-oriented worldview to an excessive inward relativism that shapes modern culture. Rolando reflects on how secularism, consumerism, and the speed of technological change—especially the early introduction of smartphones—create overwhelming networks of influence that families and schools struggle to counterbalance. Using philosophy, history, and storytelling, he highlights the need for strong moral formation, intentional family-school partnership, and education that helps young people develop maturity, resilience, and a firm grounding in truth in an increasingly complex world.

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• (00:01) - Welcome to Catholic Education Matters
• (00:27) - What Catholic Liberal Arts Truly Mean Today
• (02:29) - How Relativism Replaced a God-Centered Worldview
• (07:08) - The Rise of Secularism and the Crisis of Identity
• (14:23) - Influence Overload: Phones, Pressure & Modern Youth
• (21:59) - The Sword and the Sandals: A Parenting Story for Our Time
• (29:40) - Rebuilding the School–Family Partnership
• (39:16) - Technology, Phones, and the Loss of Real Social Interaction
• (41:30) - Complexity, Uncertainty, and Military Frameworks for Global Events
• (43:45) - Moral Foundations, Relativism, and the Erosion of Truth
• (46:00) - “Islands of Certainty”: Anchoring Education and Moral Formation
• (48:15) - Probability Over Certainty: Slowing Down in a Hyper-Accelerated World
• (50:35) - AI, Humanism, and the Decline of Creative and Critical Thinking
• (52:47) - Automation, Social Disconnection, and the Future of Human Interaction
• (56:24) - AI, Technology, and the Dual-Edged Sword of Innovation
• (58:52) - Creativity, Human Thought, and the Limits of AI
• (01:01:09) - The Importance of Critical Thinking and Reading
• (01:06:32) - Moral Education and Media Literacy in the Modern Age
• (01:13:11) - Responsible Use of Technology and Teaching Probabilities
• (01:16:40) - Embracing Fragility, Purpose, and Meaningful Relationships
• (01:22:55) - Catholic Education, Faith, and Forming Ethical Foundations
• (01:35:44) - Outro

Creators and Guests

Host

Troy Van Vliet

Host of Catholic Education Matters, father, and founder of Saint John Paul II Academy

Guest

Rolando Islas

Producer

Silveria Roselli

What is Catholic Education Matters ?

Welcome to Catholic Education Matters the podcast that celebrates the beauty of Catholic education, highlighting excellence in academics, athletics, and the transformative power of faith. Join us as we share the stories of those making a lasting impact on Catholic education.

[00:00:01] Intro: Welcome to Catholic Education Matters, the podcast that celebrates the beauty of Catholic education, highlighting excellence in academics, athletics, and the transformative power of faith. Join us as we share the stories of those making a lasting impact on Catholic education. Let's begin.

[00:00:26] Troy Van Vliet: Good day. Welcome, everyone. Thank you for joining us here on Catholic Education Matters and I am really pleased to have back with us by popular demand. I can't say enough about Rolando Yes, thank you very much for joining us again. We had a great chat last time. I actually listened to it again this morning because I thought: oh, need to refresh some of the things that we talked about and it was fantastic and we got into some deep philosophy. You are the philosopher extraordinaire, business philosopher, strong practicing Catholic.

[00:00:59] And we're going to talk today a little bit about how we're intertwining all those things and in Catholic education where it's important. We're going talk about a Catholic liberal arts and the list goes on.

[00:01:13] Rolando Islas: Awesome.

[00:01:13] Troy Van Vliet: So welcome, welcome.

[00:01:15] Rolando Islas: Thank you very much.

[00:01:15] Troy Van Vliet: Thank you very much. So I'm not sure where to begin, but we were talking a little bit earlier about Catholic liberal arts and I know at Saint John Paul, the second academy, we're looking at introducing that into our school, which is a big task actually because you got to get all your teachers on board and leadership on board and Catholic liberal arts to me as a school that practices that is introducing the faith not just in prayer at certain times in the day and not just during religion class, but it's introducing it throughout and it's weaving it throughout all of the programs in education. So including sports, including math, your sciences, your STEAM subjects and what have you. So do I have that right in terms of what a Catholic liberal arts program may or may not look like?

[00:02:11] Rolando Islas: Mean, I'm a big proponent of getting like moral philosophy into every kind of information that we deliver is especially nowadays that we are embedded in a quite complex system. Now, this term about liberal arts, in my view, it's a very North American term. I grew up under philosophy. Was Philosophy was the main theme. And from philosophy, you have moral philosophy, you have philosophy of science.

[00:02:55] So, when I came to Canada, I remember that I was offered an interview at UBC to cover for someone for a while in teaching ethics. And they told me to go to the liberal arts department. And I was like, I am not a painter. Why is that I have to go there? And so my guess, as I was telling you, is that it comes the term liberal comes from historically, this transition from a time where the church was everything.

[00:03:38] It was political power, it was education, and it was arts. Every artist had to express themselves through some sort of divine intervention or divine expression.

[00:03:56] Troy Van Vliet: So like the paintings, they were always religious paintings,

[00:03:59] Rolando Islas: so to speak,

[00:04:01] Troy Van Vliet: for a long time.

[00:04:01] Rolando Islas: Yeah, this is why also in Europe there are so many churches, because it was kind of an expression until renaissance came in. Humanism was this movement to return to see ourselves. Which it's also triggered in a way by one philosopher, I have one in mind, who is Descartes. Descartes Think about this. And this is going to link with why is that moral philosophy has to be considered in education.

[00:04:47] It's only one of the threads is we're living in a very complex environment, but this one is important. Around, let's say two fifty years ago, I guess, were before Descartes, all the way from the Greek philosophers to Descartes, we were learning who we were. I mean, our existential answers were coming from watching nature. We were finding our place in this universe by looking outside of us, by all the flows and rhythms of nature. Until, I mean, Descartes came in and said, well, how is that I know that this is not an illusion?

[00:05:44] This is not a makeup of mine. How is that I know that I exist? And he came with this idea like I think therefore I exist. His famous cogito ergo zoom. And and then something happened.

[00:06:01] For the first time, we were thinking inside first and solving nature or our place from the inside to the outside. I mean, both realities are truth. My inner self and the outer self Both are there. But the problem with the cart is that he began a movement of a pendulum. We began to get inside of us more and more and more and more until this relativistic exaggeration that we're living today happens.

[00:06:42] Troy Van Vliet: So, you're saying that started how long? Two fifty years ago?

[00:06:45] Rolando Islas: Something like that. Might be like give and take fifty years. So,

[00:06:55] Troy Van Vliet: rise of the West or western civilization, let's say over the last two fifty years, I mean especially in North America, built on Christianity. It really was. So how does that fit in when you're saying, so if we're turning inwards instead of turning to Christ, how does that work? When I'm seeing, you know, two fifty years ago Christianity was huge in North America and today it's been really diluted and secularism and atheism even has really become more and more abundant.

[00:07:38] Rolando Islas: It's one of the threads because let's go back in time before it was Jesus came in to save everyone. In this relativistic way, Jesus came in to save me. I sold myself according to my view of religion. What is that I take from religion? What it that I take from morals for me?

[00:08:12] What is good for me? And I well, then I'll try to fit in whatever suits me in the outside. So, bridge has to be there. It's just like I mean, think about this. I have my pain.

[00:08:33] And if I tell you I am in pain, well, you will understand because you have been in pain. But you don't know my pain. So, this is my reality. But there's also a reality that there is pain outside of me. So, the problem that we have now is that we have gone too far into this relativism.

[00:08:55] Everything is now relative to me. Now, put on top of that capitalism. Put on top of that this obsession that we have with pleasure. So it's everything is meant to give me some sort of pleasure. And money is the way to get into these pleasures or softness.

[00:09:25] There's a Korean philosopher, well, he's a Korean German philosopher that says that we're obsessed with the smoothness. Life has to be smooth. Right. And everything that is rough is supposed to be avoided. Don't want rough.

[00:09:41] But life is rough. So, this is part of the confusions that we have. And this is why we have to understand that we have to build the bridge between my inner self and the outside world. I am not going to be able to solve my existence within me. In a way, what happened with the card, he unhinged us from the ground.

[00:10:08] I mean, if you think of relativism like losing the pull of gravity, everything is floating in own rhythm. Which probably at the beginning I don't know, I have never experienced that, but it must be nice to be floating. But at some point you need to get back into the ground. Yeah. And this is where morals come in.

[00:10:35] Morals come and ground you towards the relationship with myself, with the others, with my environment. I have to take care of all of this.

[00:10:45] Troy Van Vliet: And morals are something that are learned. They're not innate, they're not something that's automatic. And I've said this for a long time too, even with the fall of Christianity I think there might be a bit of a rebound happening right now but even with the fall of Christianity as the grounding, you know, even within politics, everything if you take away that foundation, well all of a sudden anything goes, you know, and we've been riding on the coattails of Christianity because people say: well, it's good because I know it's good, it's in my heart. No, no, no, you learned it from something and you may have learned it from your parents and maybe they had a good grounding in faith from their parents when they were growing up. They passed on the rules but didn't pass on where the rules came from.

[00:11:34] Being religion, you know, being that moral compass that you get from your faith. And the further we get away from that in secularism, the further we start saying well really I don't like that rule and where did it come from anyway? I don't know, I see no basis in it. That doesn't make me feel good whereas this makes me feel good so I'm gonna do it. Whatever feels good goes.

[00:12:01] And well then you end up with chaos. It's a mess because you're in the mess that we're in right now where anything goes. If it feels good you know it says my truth. You know, no, there's the truth, not just my truth. There are truths out there.

[00:12:16] You may have feelings that are, but just because you feel something doesn't mean you have to be something.

[00:12:23] Rolando Islas: Yeah. And I mean, there's even Nietzsche understood this problem when he killed God. When he writes, well, I the madman comes back and the people, I have bad news for you because God is dead and we all killed him. And that's the phrase that he's remembered for. But what he's very interesting is what follows.

[00:12:53] He says, and we and there is not enough time to wash our hands of what we have done. And he doesn't say this like in a triumphant way. If you read the book, it's more like he's in horror saying, man, have we done? We just broke the only anchor that was here. So now there's nothing.

[00:13:22] It's just so just go out and do whatever you want because I have bad news for you. You are going just to disappear in oblivion. It's that is the fate of humanity after God is dead. And then he goes like, we have just shaded every possible sun from now on. Right.

[00:13:44] So even him understands that this relativism is dangerous. Is going to bring a lot of anxiety.

[00:13:55] Troy Van Vliet: Yeah, it's dangerous, it's destructive, know, suicide rates are as higher than they've ever been right now. People are not happy.

[00:14:05] Rolando Islas: That in my view has another, also another surge. And this is another thing that I think that everyone should be educated on. Not only, I mean, not only our youth, I'm talking about businessmen, I'm talking about families, I'm talking about, I mean, philosophers, science, everything. It's this surge of complexity. That's the term of how this concept has been evolving.

[00:14:40] So, in simple terms means that I mean, we come from Just as we come from this relationship with the outside and now to the inside and all this relativism is driving us nuts, we come from an idea of linear causal relationships. Like, there's a cause, there's an effect, who receives the impact of the cause? And we were able to get to where we are. Our science is, the whole development of humanity is based on this idea of control that comes from the enlightenment. It was our educational system is based on this idea.

[00:15:27] You dump this information into the kids and the effect is going to be this. Well, it used to be that way when the world was slow. The problem in complexity is, and again, simplifying it, it has like two main threads that have to be watched. The number of interactions that we have, our network, and the speed of exchange of information that we have. These two elements are going to change the receiver in ways that we have no idea.

[00:16:15] This is also the uncertainty principle. We ignore what we ignore, right? That we don't know. So, whenever something happens, sometimes I hear every now and then the parents saying, I don't know where is that this came from. My kid had excellent education.

[00:16:39] He was in a Catholic school all his life. And now, I mean, where is that these aggressive reactions or this eating disorder came from? We have been carrying family. Well, that is what complexity does. And how is that it performs it?

[00:17:03] It's because all of a sudden we expanded their network.

[00:17:10] Troy Van Vliet: So we're attached to, whether we know it or not, to so many different forms of whether it's information or influences that we don't even know. Like they're coming at us in all whether it's through our phone, whether it's through a family,

[00:17:23] Rolando Islas: whether it's through school,

[00:17:24] Troy Van Vliet: through friends, through acquaintances, through complete strangers on the internet.

[00:17:27] Rolando Islas: Oh yeah.

[00:17:28] Troy Van Vliet: We're getting influenced.

[00:17:29] Rolando Islas: I like to tell this story to my students. Plutarch used to tell the myth of the life of Tysius, I think is the name of the story. So, there's the king of Athens, whose name is Aehaos. So, Aehaos is getting old and he has no kids, no heirs to the throne. And his nephews are beginning to surround the throne and they are toying with the idea of getting rid of the uncle, right?

[00:18:05] So, he goes to the Oracle of Delphi and he asks, what is that I need to do? So, the Oracle gives him a riddle and he told him, well, you have to go to this far island and meet King Pythias. He's going to solve the riddle for you. So he gets his ships and he goes to that island, he meets King Pitheus and he tells them, well, the Oracle told me this, and King Pitheus says, I have no idea what you're talking about, but I will tell my daughter to host you. And the daughter ends up being pregnant of Theseus because of these.

[00:18:51] King Aehaos first realizes that King Pityas actually was able to understand the riddle, and so he acted accordingly. But now he has to go back to his kingdom, to Athens, And he has to make a decision. Should I leave the kid or should I take him with me? So, he's afraid, first of all, of the trip. And then what is at his nephew's once they get to Athens, which is a way more complicated society than this small island, are going to do?

[00:19:28] They might kill the kid. So, he decides to leave his sword and his sandals under a rock. And he goes and talks to the mother and tells the mother, You teach him well. I trust you. I trust your morals.

[00:19:42] I trust the ways of the island. And make sure that the kid is close to your father because he's a wise man. And when he becomes of age, tell him that under the rock, there's something for him. If he wants, he can go lift the rock and get these two items. But if he lifts a rock, it means that he's going to go back to Athens to take his place as the heir of the throne.

[00:20:14] But he also has to know that the trip for him is going to be really, really dangerous. So he needs to use the weapon that I am leaving there and he has to take the sandals so I can recognize him. So, of course, he comes of age, he goes to the rock, he leaves the rock and he takes the sword and the sandals and goes into this crazy trip. And you can imagine this is a mythology, so he's fighting with all sorts of evils and things, he arrives to Athens. And when he arrives to Athens, his father doesn't recognize him.

[00:20:54] And he has several items from his trip that prove that he was able to defeat all these evil. So now his father is afraid of this young valiant man. He might be claiming his throne. So, he plots to kill him. And so, the story goes and they are in the banquet where the father and Medea, his wife, pour some venom into his wine.

[00:21:30] And he has no cutlery. So he gets the sword, he cuts his meat, and the father recognizes him.

[00:21:38] Troy Van Vliet: The sword.

[00:21:39] Rolando Islas: Yeah. And he throws the cup away and he embraces him and Okay. There we go, The story has a beautiful message that we, I think we really need to understand as parents. Is that the boy has to be of age. What does that mean?

[00:21:59] It's like he has to be mature enough to understand a weapon and to understand what it means to walk on my feet. It's on my shoes, I mean. So, the weapon is power. Is he going to be mature enough to handle the power that this weapon is going to give him? This weapon can kill, but it also can deliver justice, it can defeat evil, it can help him survive, and all sorts of things.

[00:22:36] So he really needs to understand the sword and the powers that he will receive from it. And then he has to decide when he puts his father's shoes, how big these shoes are. But the other analogy is the father doesn't recognize him because of the trip. I mean, this young adult, before getting into this trip to Athens, was more innocent. And now the trip and the weapon everything that happened changed him.

[00:23:19] So what is interesting is that the father understood the education, and this is where it links. And this is where we have to be really aware of what kind of education are we giving to our kids. It's, he is leaving him in an island where, things move slowly or slower than in Athens. He trusts the educators. He knows that he's going to be, I mean, well versed in morals, in family, in, in how he's to fight.

[00:23:59] And then he gives him the weapon. But he lets him decide freely. Nowadays, I find that this is one of the biggest questions that we have to ask ourselves as parents. When is that I am going to let go?

[00:24:17] Troy Van Vliet: Do you ever let go?

[00:24:20] Rolando Islas: Yeah, I don't know. Well, I come from a culture where we, I mean, stick together. When I tell this to my Canadian friends, people look at me like, well, man, this guy is weird. I left my parents house when I got married at 31. But then you had all these exchange with the place where you grew up.

[00:24:47] Here in Canada, I remember my neighbor when we first came, she was kind of apologetic because her son was coming back from university and was going to stay with them. And I thought like, yeah, well, that's what I would do. He's like, he will be trying to find his own place soon. Like, didn't understand it. But I understand that that's the culture.

[00:25:16] That's the way that we have been doing things. Nowadays

[00:25:21] Troy Van Vliet: And that's more of a recent culture too. When I say recent, probably in the last thirty or fifty years, It wasn't always like that here too. Well, when you think about it, there were so many European settlers that have come from other parts of the world, which were all very family oriented. Know, my family is very from The Netherlands, they're very family oriented. You know, when we grew up my dad had nine, there was 10 brothers and they all immigrated over here one at a time and they all came to the same part of Canada and they all worked in the same company.

[00:25:53] You know, they were partners in one company at one point. And then all of my 50 cousins, we were all close and we got to get together every year, you know, and it was like that. Like family was a huge part and then it's fallen away. Like you said, it's slowly we've adapted to this new lifestyle and, you know, as your parents get older they don't live with you, they go into a care home facility or something like that, you know, and it's not really big on that, you know, I think we're missing the boat. There's so many things that we learn from all of the different stages in our life, being born as a baby and then having your own kids, then taking care of babies and you're taking care of them and then as you get older your parents need, you know, they were the ones that were taking care of you and now you got to take care of them and you got to watch over your own kid.

[00:26:56] And they're all lessons. They're all teaching us humility all the way through, right till the very, very end, you know. And then when your parents die, they are teaching you the last lessons in life that they could possibly teach you, Which is the loss of a parent, you know. And there's only one that can do that, know, and that is your parents. So all of these are lessons along the way and we are losing sight of that here.

[00:27:20] Rolando Islas: Going back to complexity and these weapons, it's This is a problem that we really need to understand. The average age that a kid receives its first phone, I mean like intelligent device, let's call it that way, it's around 13 years old. This is average, so you have a lot of kids that have it before. And of course, since babies now, they are exposed to this technology. But they are exposed, under some sort of supervision because it's my phone, I give it to my kid so he can stay quiet or whatever, but I still have some sort of control.

[00:28:05] We give I mean, trust the education that we give our kids. We tell them, don't talk to strangers, don't receive gifts from anyone. I mean, have these these are like the standard sayings, where is that disease coming from, what happened and da da da. And of a sudden, we give them a device that exponentially, but their network of influence explodes. It's not about talking to strangers.

[00:28:46] It is a fact that all of these myriad of strangers are going to be talking to them. And we don't realize that. That is a complexity trigger because we are losing control.

[00:28:59] Troy Van Vliet: Right.

[00:29:00] Rolando Islas: Some parents sometimes tell me, but we have to introduce them to technology because this is the way of the future. And so this is going to be the reality. They need to figure it out. Yeah. But not at 13 years old.

[00:29:15] We're giving them the sword before they come of age. And so everything is relative. And this is a problem, Like, for example, in religious education is now, yes, I am sending them the message, but they are receiving a ton of counterbalancing messages. And that is a problem.

[00:29:39] Troy Van Vliet: Exactly. So we've got to load up the other side. In education in general, the family is supposed to have the most influence and the school is supposed to be an extension of the family. At least that's how I see

[00:29:56] Rolando Islas: it.

[00:29:57] Troy Van Vliet: They're both, I don't even say equal, the family is more important. But if you take one of them away there's a problem. If you've got a horrible family you might be able to build it up with a great school and a great community. If you've got a great family and the schooling is not there you're rolling the dice because where is that influence coming? Okay, yes we talked about through the phone, which is a massive influence and then who you surround yourself with.

[00:30:27] But ideally you want to have both. You want to have a good solid family and then you have to have that good solid school. Traditionally the Catholic schools have been that extension, you know, because everybody's of especially if you're all of the same belief and you've got the same moral compass, you're all singing off the same song sheet and you're all moving in the same direction. But now, like you said, it's coming from us in every different direction at a super young age and the influencers aren't mom and dad and brother and sister and aunt and uncle and the family. The influencers are the world.

[00:31:04] I was reading

[00:31:08] Rolando Islas: an article that really gave me the shivers because this lady says that the first source of influence or the more trusted influence in a teenager is not mom or dad. So I thought, well, it's their circle of friends. Not their circle of friends, especially with very delicate issues. Let's say, like eating disorders, sex, suicide, all of these things, I don't want to talk about them. I go to a source that is discreet enough to give me some answers.

[00:31:57] And so nobody knows. If I am having these issues like I like to eat, but I feel like I am fat. And I did some research and I found these horrible places that, I mean, I think this is criminal, but there is not a legal framework. These people, influencers, tell kids, especially girls, how to I mean, basically return their food without anyone noticing. So they give some tips like do it while you are having a shower or you know when mom and dad are not going to be there, stay away from your brothers and sisters and whatever.

[00:32:54] Man, this is What are we talking about? This is a problem of complexity. You see, these are the unforeseen things that might happen.

[00:33:05] Troy Van Vliet: Right.

[00:33:06] Rolando Islas: Because the network is there.

[00:33:08] Troy Van Vliet: Right.

[00:33:08] Rolando Islas: So, we need to realize that we have been pushing the gas on all of this information, on all of this technology, and we keep accelerating. The more we accelerate, the less we see the road. There's these French philosopher, his name is Paul Berrillo. He calls this Dromology. I don't know, seems like he made up these words, but he's the logic of speed.

[00:33:41] Logic of speed? Of speed, yeah. It's just the more you speed up the process, the less control you have over the outcomes.

[00:33:50] Troy Van Vliet: Right. So this is Well, which is what we're experiencing with AI right now. Like where knowledge doubles every well, it was going so fast at every six months. I think it's even faster than that now where knowledge used to double every 100. You know, it's funny you were talking about the story where with the king and the sword, you know, he buries it under the rock, you know, until the son comes of age.

[00:34:16] Today if you did something like that, you buried something or kept it for your kid that whatever it was that you buried would be ancient eighteen years later, you know. It's a sword, what is this thing for, you know? The iPod! Yeah, your iPhone from eighteen years ago, think of what that looked like, you know, compared to today. So,

[00:34:37] Rolando Islas: I don't know if you heard yesterday and this is also has to do with complexity. Yeah. And this is the thing, information is coming and coming and coming. This was yesterday coming from OpenAI. They acknowledged publicly that at least half a million their users are experiencing psychotic symptoms.

[00:35:05] Oh, wow. And about, I don't remember the percentages, but a fair amount of those people are experiencing suicidal thoughts. Wow. And the problem that they have now with GPT agents is that they are looking into the web for information. We need to understand that these are algorithms, algorithms that are trying to give you the best answer to a problem.

[00:35:39] Troy Van Vliet: Right.

[00:35:40] Rolando Islas: So if I want to commit suicide and, I express myself in a way that pain is so big that I have no desire to live because I have this condition or whatever. I go into the government legislation as an algorithm, I'm going to tell you, well, you know, if the government says it, it's under an ethical framework. So, I can give this is a way that these algorithms work. They find different sources. They have to evaluate which one is the one that aligns with their directives.

[00:36:23] And they will tell you that, yeah, well, if the government agrees that assisted suicide is good, probably this is not that bad. So, the algorithm is pushing these people towards that line. But the scary part is that I don't know if these numbers are real, but they come from OpenAI. So they might be bigger, way bigger than this. The other number that was also

[00:36:53] Troy Van Vliet: How did they even determine that? You know, OpenAI is saying these people that are asking these questions are psychotic?

[00:37:00] Rolando Islas: Yeah. And they, you can tell that they are like getting into the data. They are actually listening to all the conversations that we have with the engine. The other one is that, a fair amount of people, and I can see that happening, are getting emotional attachments towards the algorithm.

[00:37:23] Troy Van Vliet: So, we have a problem. And wait till the emotional attachments and the algorithms come from a human like looking and sounding and even feeling robot. Yeah. You know, that's in your home and that's whether you're being used as a maid or whatever, you know, somebody that's a housekeeper or somebody that's taking care of your place And then all of a sudden, you know, it's like you're now you're having a conversation and philosophical conversation, moral conversation with, you know, something that's not real.

[00:38:04] Rolando Islas: Yeah, it's for the algorithm. We forget that we are only a variable. Yeah. It's just a variable in an equation. So I need to solve the equation in the best way possible according to my directives.

[00:38:16] And the big question is how old are these half a million people? I bet you that they are quite young adults.

[00:38:26] Troy Van Vliet: Well because it's the older ones, you know those probably 50, 60, the older you get the less you're using something like ChatGPT. The less you're using, you're just like: I don't want to learn something new again. I've got my old ways. This is how I do it. I go to the dictionary when I want to look something up.

[00:38:45] There's some people that don't want to use electronics at all. God bless But like you said, our kids as young as five and six years old, this is what they're, you know, they're right in there with it. And whether it's, you know, simple things, games that they're starting out with, but they already know how to use advice. Well, they're addicted to the device and away it goes. And I mean we're taking a step in the right direction by just eliminating the devices out of schools now.

[00:39:16] So I mean that's been a huge benefit. You can see it just under, know, where kids are sitting around at lunchtime or something like that and they're not buried in an electronic device. They are actually having to have a conversation with their friend or a classmate or whatever and they're being forced into awkward social moments that they have to work it out and they have to get, you know. So whereas before, you know, even a couple of years ago an awkward moment would be avoided by just diving into your phone.

[00:39:50] Rolando Islas: Because technology, I mean going back to where we began this conversation, technology kind of triggers these relativism, this thing about the the inside forgetting about the outside. Yeah, have now my best friends, my 1,000 best friends in the phone. So I don't care about the outside because I have everything that I need in here.

[00:40:18] Troy Van Vliet: And we're forcing it even more. Like it's exponential isn't it? Because we keep accelerating. Like I'm not feeling good, I'm gonna dive into TikTok and I'm gonna watch happy videos. I'm going watch things that aren't real, that aren't happening in real life and I'm just going to do this because it's going to take me into another world where virtual reality is going to be a whole another thing that we got

[00:40:39] Rolando Islas: to deal We really, really need to wake up. You know that complexity is an issue when the American military gets in. They refer it as, what's the term? It's accelerating uncertainty, think, or accelerating. Yeah, something like that.

[00:41:04] So they have developed a few frameworks in order to try to figure out what are the consequences of different events. For example, is like, think about this in this way. A big drought in one part of the country has their crops and their water supplies and everything depleted.

[00:41:32] Troy Van Vliet: So,

[00:41:33] Rolando Islas: these provokes, I mean, course, or whatever and displacement of the people. These displacement gets into, I mean, or at some point face the borders and it becomes probably a violent conflict.

[00:41:54] Troy Van Vliet: And

[00:41:55] Rolando Islas: then it can become a war, a destabilization of economy, and you go on how these things weave into each other.

[00:42:07] Troy Van Vliet: So

[00:42:08] Rolando Islas: this is what the American military is trying to figure out. How to put together these frameworks in order to make what is complex understandable. Or at least we're switching from these linear cause and effect predictions that we used to have into probabilities. What is the probable outcome of this or that? How is that they relate?

[00:42:36] This is what these frameworks are about. So I was thinking, well, if the American military forces are trying to figure out this, and of course, they are talking about macro events, but macro events begin in elemental parts, which is the self. So I was thinking we need to understand how is that these elemental parts on these very complex conflicts actually function, interact or get affected. And this begins with education. And you have to understand a lot of the moral implications of the things that you don't understand.

[00:43:30] Troy Van Vliet: Well, what is moral though today? Like that's where the problem starts, is it not? Like we can get caught up in all the noise and the busyness down here and talk about the complexities of what happens when I do this, how many things, what kind of reactions does it cause? Like going, you know, indefinitely. You can get caught up in that, but where is the problem starting?

[00:43:58] It's our lack of focus and our moral upbringing, our moral background that's been eroded. It causes chaos. Nobody knows what's right or wrong anymore. When there is a truth, there is a right or wrong, but nobody knows what it is anymore.

[00:44:17] Rolando Islas: This is the thing about Nietzsche is we we got unhinged.

[00:44:21] Troy Van Vliet: Right.

[00:44:21] Rolando Islas: So we need and I think as as parents and let's let's suppose that we are not talking about Catholic education. We are talking about education in general. If I am a parent and I understand these complexities, I would want to bring back, I mean, some sort of anchoring to reality. And

[00:44:48] Troy Van Vliet: these anchoring Well, those that are smart enough to see it, that aren't caught up in the selfishness themselves. I mean

[00:44:56] Rolando Islas: And these anchors, call them islands of certainty. It's just like the island of chaos. In fact, that's the title of the book that I was telling you about that hopefully would get published next It's we know some things that work because it's the nature of ourselves to make them work or to react to these certainties. And this is where moral education and religious education really hinge because we know that if we do anything with love towards others, probabilities, remember, is not direct cause and effect. The probabilities that I am going to get a loving answer are huge.

[00:45:55] If I care for the others without asking anything in return, what I will get most probably is blind trust. Think about this, these are really powerful certainties. We don't know what is going to happen. We know now that everything is tangled. We know that, I mean, after we discovered the very nature of the atom and what was going on there is we realized that nothing was cause and effect.

[00:46:37] You know, the atoms have electrons. And we always thought that these electrons were, you know, the atom all the time. But the fact is when you don't see them, they become a cloud of probability. And when you, the cloud of probability is relates to where is most likely that the, that this particle is going to appear when you observe it. But it's not exact.

[00:47:10] It's a cloud of probability. What is funny is when you see it, when you analyze it, it appears as a dot in space and time. But the moment that you stop studying it, it becomes another cloud of probability. What does this tells us? It is not us from the inside looking at nature from the outside.

[00:47:34] It is nature. I mean, is that the observer becomes part of the whole observation. And this is I know this sounds weird in a way, but these also the this tells us that we have to begin thinking about probabilities instead of certainties. And in order to do that, we have to slow down a little bit the pace. If we cannot trust, in my view, we cannot trust governments or businessmen.

[00:48:14] I, while I was reading the, the, these news about OpenAI, I thought like, oh, they know, they know what they are doing. They, they know that they are pushing these people towards the cliff. And, and then what? What is your responsibility, dude, in what you are saying is you have to slow down or you have to put some some sort of, restriction into this. They can do it.

[00:48:45] Why is that they are not doing it? Because now it is a race to see who becomes the first getting nowhere or who makes more money. So we have to return to, I mean, in my view, we have to return to get control of these. We need to slow our pace. If the government is not doing it, if businesses are not doing it, we need to establish clear restrictions to ourselves.

[00:49:17] Aristotle will say temperance, find temperance to regain equilibrium between the use of our technology and the amusement that our technology gives us.

[00:49:31] Troy Van Vliet: So isn't there going to be, okay, so there's this call it natural, call it unnatural progression right now towards AI and the use of AI and what it's doing because everybody's still amazed by it. Information's doubling, know, constant, can now ask JatGPT anything and you'll get an answer. It's not always the right answer, but you're going get something and it's going be quite extensive and you can elaborate with it, you can argue with it, debate with it, know, there's all types of things. You can give it parameters to get a more exact answer. So, it's just taking away the humanism out of a conversation, you know, something stimulating in that regard.

[00:50:13] It not be like everybody says: well, it's going to destroy humanity. And I always thought too how could it do that? And it's like, well, we've already seen what iPhones have done to kids and we've seen what social media has done. And that's in a relatively short period of time, even over like ten-fifteen years, where you look at it and you go like: Wow! That's having a massive, massive impact.

[00:50:33] AI is just going so fast because it learns from itself, not just what you feed it, but it's learning from itself and it's thinking on its own. How is that going to affect like is there not going to be groups of people that are going to see the dangers of it that are going to say hold on a second here I don't want my kids involved with that. Like the homeschoolers, families, things like that, that are already saying: the education system is horrible and maybe I don't even entrust the faith based schools. I'm keeping my kids at home. They're going to learn at home.

[00:51:13] I'm going to be in more control of what they're doing at home. And then you're going have other people, especially the further you go out from the city, the more real people seem to be for lack of a better description. Is there not gonna be more like colonies that are setting up that are just saying no, you know what, we're gonna hold on to our traditional values and our traditional way of life as much as we can to slow it down, let's say, to slow down this crazy speed of progression. Because I see robots replacing humans. It's already happening with the conversations that you can have with Chad GPT and they sound real.

[00:51:53] Like you're talking to a real person, know, all the humanistic, you know, tones and everything. You know, when is that gonna happen? Like when you take away jobs, when you take away, when Uber is no longer a person driving the car, it's now, you know, you get in, you don't say 'hi', you don't say anything, you know, and if you are it's a computer that's talking to you. And you're always like, you know, that humanistic interaction gets eliminated. Know, when you go to the coffee shop today it's not just for the coffee.

[00:52:26] You know, people say: well I'm just gonna grab a coffee. You could have got it at home. You're doing it for the social even if it's just the barista that you're talking to or the cashier you're talking to and you might wave to somebody, you might see something. We need those humanists. But if now you don't need the barista anymore because a machine can make your coffee as perfect or better.

[00:52:47] And it's the touch of a button and you wave of your phone and there it is and it's perfect and you walk out and all of a sudden am I better off having had that interaction with a computer? You know, is my day that much better or have I just totally missed out by getting my coffee from the teenage barista that I had to say hi to that I maybe I see every week and say how are you doing you know and then have a conversation.

[00:53:12] Rolando Islas: This is the thing about complex environments is we don't know. Yeah. I don't think really that this is going to destroy humanity by itself, but we are volunteering to destroy ourselves.

[00:53:29] Troy Van Vliet: Right.

[00:53:31] Rolando Islas: The use of technology is proven to diminish our capacity to be creative. I mean, see a reflection in, for example, music. Now you have all these music that says nothing. It's just or the lyrics are super aggressive or is what it sells. Is not an art anymore.

[00:53:59] It's not that the expression is aligned to what it sells. So it's, it affects our, capacity to concentrate. It affects our creativity. And now we have a machine that thinks for itself or thinks for ourselves. So it's, I mean, sounds convenient, but now I am losing my critical thinking abilities.

[00:54:33] So, I mean, I go back to these elements or these basic element in complexity that he saw us. We need to make a decision. Am I going to rely too much into AI or not? I cannot abandon my writing and reading skills because these have a certain function in the or a certain exercise for my brain.

[00:55:10] Troy Van Vliet: I

[00:55:11] Rolando Islas: turn abstract ideas into concrete words in order to express myself. When I do that, I can go into a conversation and express myself more clearly because these are my ideas, my conceptions, and I was able to tell them to myself.

[00:55:28] Troy Van Vliet: Right.

[00:55:28] Rolando Islas: So I can bridge them into the outside. When they come from a machine, I probably understand them, but I don't know how to express them. It's just they are there. And because they are there, they are facts. So is one of the things that I keep telling my students is you, you have to read.

[00:55:49] You have to make a stop. I tell them, promise me that at least you are going to give yourselves thirty minutes of silence doing nothing. Just sit down in your bed and do nothing, please. But think. And they laugh because they know that they don't do it.

[00:56:09] Troy Van Vliet: No, they don't. If they don't have that constant input and I'm guilty of it too. I see that all the time. I'm filling a dead space with some, you know, watching a YouTube video or whatever. I probably like to fool myself into thinking, I'm trying to learn something, you know, I'm trying to get something.

[00:56:27] So like anything, technology and AI can be used for good and it can be used for bad. Television, when it was invented, could be used for good to get a message across and in innocent entertainment and it can be used for bad. You know, getting bad or propaganda style messaging across, you know. And we're in that time now with AI, you know, I like to think I'm using it for good. When I do use it and I'm learning, it's usually an educational type thing, trying to get some information or having it, you know, adjust some information for me to make it quicker so I don't have to spend so much time trying to fidget with it.

[00:57:08] And so I like to think that I'm using it for good in terms of what it can do and just learning a little bit more about what it can do now, but how many steps ahead is it going to be six months from now, you know, or tomorrow even. That part is scary because there's as many people wanting to use it for good or more wanting to use it for bad than there is wanting to use it for good.

[00:57:32] Rolando Islas: I think that, mean, and don't get me wrong, I'm not saying dump your technology. What I think is that we need to use it wisely. One of the things that these engines are never going to be able to imitate is creativity. They cannot conceive a new idea out of nothing. And what we can do.

[00:58:00] There are some defendants

[00:58:01] Troy Van Vliet: I don't know about that.

[00:58:02] Rolando Islas: Yeah, there are some people that say, no, I'm not sure, but think about it. These are mechanisms that imitate what we do, but it's,

[00:58:11] Troy Van Vliet: Like it's scary how much ChatGPT knows about me already. Knows who I am, like when I log in, who I am, knows my family because I've talked about my family, knows a bunch of things. And you know, you could say, now based on what you know about me, write a poem about something you think I might like.

[00:58:31] Rolando Islas: And it's going to get some previous structures that are there, but it's never going to come with a novel idea like saying I'm going to change the structure of the poem or whatever into something really bizarre today, but it might work in the future. You know, it's what is being proven. I might be wrong. Probably those mechanisms of creativity would like at some point suggest the card. Yeah.

[00:59:09] Why don't we begin from the inside to solve our existential problems? Is, I mean, that jump requires a lot of creativity and an idea that just pops out of nothing.

[00:59:22] Troy Van Vliet: But doesn't our own creativity get influenced by what we take in and what we've learned through life? Of course. So wouldn't AI's own creativity come from that as well? Because it's not just getting information from what I'm saying, it's scouring the internet. Like if you tell it you want a video showing a bear attacking a cougar in the woods, you know whatever, with big fir tree, it's gonna fill in all of the blanks.

[00:59:51] Rolando Islas: That's the thing.

[00:59:52] Troy Van Vliet: It doesn't just do that and there's one color, you know what I mean? Yeah. It's gonna go from the information and experience it has, I'll call it experience, and it's gonna create something that's complete from it. Even though I gave it very couple small parameters.

[01:00:09] Rolando Islas: That is why we need to go back to reading. Mean for example I have my little niece,

[01:00:19] Troy Van Vliet: Yeah.

[01:00:19] Rolando Islas: Is her name is Mila and he has, our world upside down. If you ask Mila, Mila, how is that the little mermaid looks like? Yeah. She will tell you, well, is, is a dark skinned woman because that is the movie that she was exposed to. If I give her the book without any exposition to the image, she has to figure out how is that.

[01:00:51] Then some mechanisms inside our brain kicks in because we're filling all of these blanks with our own appreciation of whatever we have inside, with our concepts. And this is where creativity triggers and where we can get actually into different ways or different approaches that are not given. That is one of the dangers of technology. Everything is given.

[01:01:23] Troy Van Vliet: Yes and no. And I'm going to ask you to help me understand this because technology like still you get more out of it the more you feed into it, right? So you don't just turn on ChadGPT and nothing happens. Like nothing will happen until you say it might say, you know, good afternoon. That's it.

[01:01:42] It stops there. So you have to engage it and have to tell it what you want.

[01:01:46] Rolando Islas: But you are thinking linearly and that is a problem. It's not only what you feed, it's what the whole network feeds the thing.

[01:01:56] Troy Van Vliet: Yeah, no, no, no, I agree. Which is that's why I was saying, you know, it can create a picture out of just a few words that you feed it because it's taking information from everywhere not just from what you fed it.

[01:02:07] Rolando Islas: And he's profiling you probably as well is a conservative view whatever what is the art that conservative. I mean it's very, these are very very clever Now

[01:02:21] Troy Van Vliet: when it talks to, what is that doing for my own creativity, I would agree like reading, listening to a sporting event on the radio because you have to visualize what's going on through the words that they're being spoke and you do that and you picture that and that's where you know I think kids back in the day when there was no television was just radio and you listen to a hockey game and people were just like you know they'd seen a live hockey game so now they have to take that and create their own visuals with how with what's being described. Writing to yourself.

[01:03:00] Rolando Islas: It's how many people have these habit of keeping a diary of random ideas. It doesn't have to be anything transcendental. Is that I feel today? What is that I learned today? I need to stay in touch with myself.

[01:03:21] Troy Van Vliet: Because

[01:03:23] Rolando Islas: it's funny, we are losing that even in this relativism that is crazy. We're losing that because all our idle moments go to the network. And this is why education is so important. If we don't educate our kids to use the weapon as a weapon, they can end up just cutting themselves with the sword, which is the thing that is happening.

[01:03:52] Troy Van Vliet: So, and then it comes full circle and it's not just education, it's what kind of education. And is there a moral moral education?

[01:04:04] Rolando Islas: Trying to push CHAT GPT into Catholic education is going to evade you all the time. Do you want that?

[01:04:13] Troy Van Vliet: Well, like I said, I think mine knows me now. Mean I've had mine, I've made chat GPT spit out the rosary for me. Say the Hail Mary, say it back to me and say it 10 times, you know.

[01:04:26] Rolando Islas: Ask Chad GPT if Jesus is the way to

[01:04:33] Troy Van Vliet: Salvation or whatever.

[01:04:36] Rolando Islas: Probably whenever you push it into a moral corner, it's going to try to

[01:04:41] Troy Van Vliet: avoid I've pushed it to force it to answer and those are some of the things too. I even encourage my older daughter to, you know what challenge Chad Chibia, it'll help you debate. You know, if trying to get it to say something and it keeps, you know, avoiding it and you have to, you know, force it into that corner and get it, you know, like when does life begins? It knows how to answer me now Because I've debated it and it's like well that's not a philosophical question. I said scientifically speaking you know what when does life begin?

[01:05:20] And it's like well many people believe no no no no I want to know based on mathematical probability or based on scientific research and observational studies when does life begin you know and just keep forcing it down there and rather than don't give me the fluff liberal style answer I want to know when does it begin and eventually getting it to say it.

[01:05:41] Rolando Islas: I think that I mean that is a good use, a positive use of technology, but that is what we need to teach. We want to ask child GPT where is that life begins and just stay quiet with that.

[01:06:00] Troy Van Vliet: And then just listen to the answer and go, okay, yeah, that's the answer.

[01:06:03] Rolando Islas: Because that is one of the problems, the lack of criteria. So you are departing from a very solid criteria and you just want to know the fact, right? Or the, let's say, probably the biology or whatever it is that you are looking for. Which ChatGPT can find it for you. But you don't want it to tell you what is the foundational

[01:06:28] Troy Van Vliet: You need to be taught critical thinking. And it's the same thing with anything. It's the same thing with media in general. Mainstream media versus alternative media versus social media. They're all forms of media and they're all forms of whatever brainwashing or indoctrination or whatever and propaganda.

[01:06:49] Propaganda, especially government propaganda has been around since the beginning of time. It's nothing new. It's just different methods, you know, it used to be in newspapers, it used to be, you know, the town crier, you know, whatever it was, you know, it was different forms. It was slow. So you have It was slow, yes.

[01:07:06] Rolando Islas: You have the chance to discuss these. I got this paper in the street and you will talk it in dinner time. Today our kids get probably with thousands of propagandistic messages in their head and they are not even able to articulate what is that Because they are

[01:07:27] Troy Van Vliet: the next one's in there already and the next one, you know, if it's news now, you know, in an hour from now it's not news because the next news thing came to you because we're watching news from everywhere around the world now and whatever's the most interesting one is the one that pops up, right?

[01:07:40] Rolando Islas: And then you have the parent asking himself where is that this

[01:07:44] Troy Van Vliet: went wrong? To sort through this, like we're talking, so that's why education is important. Not any kind of, not every kind of education is important and the one that we've been lacking is moral education. So in all of this, so when this does come at our kids, you know, through a fire hose of information, right? We got to be able to stop and say, okay, how am I gonna morally view this?

[01:08:09] You know, is what I'm seeing, is this right or wrong? How, you know, is this a good thing? Is this not a good thing? Am I feeding my brain positive stuff or am I feeding it negative stuff? Am I a better person for having looked at this or spent the last twenty minutes staring at it or last two hours staring at it?

[01:08:26] Right.

[01:08:26] Rolando Islas: I keep asking my students what is that for example Instagram sales? I mean not I'm not talking about publicity or whatever. What is the core of their business? What is the purpose Well, of their

[01:08:42] Troy Van Vliet: you are the product. It's you. The more time that they can spend keeping you engaged on Instagram and telling them what you like, they know what to feed you and then they also know what kind of ad to feed you, you know. And we've used it for marketing as well even with the school and with other businesses we've used it for marketing. It's like, you know,

[01:09:04] Rolando Islas: they sell is a way to waste your time. It's just to put your

[01:09:08] Troy Van Vliet: But that's not the end product. No. They're not selling time wasting.

[01:09:13] Rolando Islas: No, no.

[01:09:14] Troy Van Vliet: That's their method of

[01:09:16] Rolando Islas: That means

[01:09:17] Troy Van Vliet: to an end. Exactly. That's just what's happening. But what they're selling is that engagement and we can sell you as much as possible so then we can insert here, you know, an ad for something that you can buy.

[01:09:31] Rolando Islas: But I think that they are selling one thing that is even more dangerous this idea of comparison. Keep posting my life. I mean, most of the people post the positive things about their life because I want to show the world how good and everything is.

[01:09:53] Troy Van Vliet: Or the fake positive things in their life.

[01:09:55] Rolando Islas: And every time that I post a fake, I deny my own reality. This is frustrating.

[01:10:01] Troy Van Vliet: Yes, very frustrating. That's why I've actually chosen on many social media, I don't even go on it anymore because it's like the engagement would either make you feel inadequate or negative if you're doing a comparison, which is like the root of so many evils when you're comparing yourself to others or others lives or other families lives or whatever and it's just like, you know what, I'm wiping that out, you know, I don't need to feed it to others. I love to brag about my kids, but you know what, I'll do it via text to my family members rather than put it out there to the world and say, look at my great family or look at my great kids. It's like, you know what, I don't need to put that on anybody else's family. When you start thinking, well, how is so and so going to take this?

[01:10:43] Are they gonna say, oh, look at he's bragging about this or am I gonna make them feel bad because their kid hasn't had a success in this way? And it's like, you know what, I'm just gonna choose to not share it.

[01:10:55] Rolando Islas: And this is where, for example, mean, moral education comes within complexity because you don't know who is going to be watching those messages and what is going to be the interpretation of those messages because they are not explicit, they are images. And you don't know if you are the culprit for someone taking his life. Right. Exactly. So how is that we teach that responsibility Yeah.

[01:11:27] And in a young adult, we need to show them the facts and we need to, and this is again, remember this is our probable is we are toying with the probabilities of a good outcome.

[01:11:40] Troy Van Vliet: So, is why I think we have to go back to these certainties. So, specifically then, so in our education system and I'll talk specifically about well, K through 12 or even through university. It is changing so fast and AI is coming, we know. Right now our teachers and our faculties are saying: no AI, you're not allowed to use AI. And I see the benefits of saying no, you need to think it through yourself, write it yourself, make sure that you know yourself, which is good.

[01:12:17] However, we already know how AI is going to be taking over in so many ways. Should we not also teach AI in a responsible way?

[01:12:29] Rolando Islas: I think that's the answer.

[01:12:32] Troy Van Vliet: With that moral grounding,

[01:12:34] Rolando Islas: exactly,

[01:12:36] Troy Van Vliet: and the moral grounding, I mean I'm going to refer to it from our Catholic faith. That's where we draw from it. That's our mission statement. It comes from our faith. You know, your life mission statement.

[01:12:50] You know, we're playing to an audience of one. And I don't mean your yourself, we're playing to the audience of God. If our goal here is to get eternal life at the end of we die, what does what I'm doing today or what I'm learning today help me get myself move forward towards that ultimate goal? And that question is not being asked enough or it's not being taught that philosophy or that belief is not being taught anywhere near enough. That truth I'm gonna say is not being taught enough.

[01:13:22] Rolando Islas: I think that we need to teach our kids around probabilities, about uncertainty, uncertainty principles. They need to understand that you have to improve the probabilities about a good life by following what you know that is not going to move. It's going to keep you grounded. Yeah. We need, I think, engage these ideas of complexity.

[01:13:55] I truly believe that we need to teach in schools about responsible use of technology. We should, I mean, we are way behind on that. Yeah. Media literacy is not in the schools. It's something that probably someone goes and give a talk or whatever, but it's not within the system.

[01:14:18] We need to warn our kids because we need to bring them to come of age, to mature, to leave the rock and then improve their chances once they are out there. Something that sounds probably even naive or dumb is I really believe that we need to teach our kids about how to be happy in schools. What is happiness? It's not I mean

[01:14:50] Troy Van Vliet: Isn't happiness just like a fleeting moment in time usually though? I mean you can't just walk around with a smile. I guess it depends on your definition. You can't just walk around with smile on your face every day and just say I'm happy, I'm happy,

[01:14:59] Rolando Islas: I'm happy.

[01:15:00] Troy Van Vliet: It's like You know, like what is happiness?

[01:15:02] Rolando Islas: That will be the I mean the psychological definition will be that right? It's something that goes in waves. So you have an ecstasies moment and then you have a depression moment. So, happiness in my view is related to meaningful relationships with everything. So shouldn't

[01:15:29] Troy Van Vliet: we be teaching that our ultimate goal and purpose is to have meaningful relationships with other people? How many times is that heard? You never hear that. But you do hear, Well, I just want to be happy or I want you to be happy. Just be happy.

[01:15:47] Know, it's like really that is our goal. Is happiness our ultimate goal? What does any feeling come from? The ultimate joy that you may have or this feeling of fulfillment and satisfaction if it comes from relationship, meaningful relationships with others. And if you have no connection.

[01:16:05] Rolando Islas: And not only with others, with our environment, with our work, with ourselves.

[01:16:12] Troy Van Vliet: With what we're producing everything.

[01:16:14] Rolando Islas: Forgiveness begins with ourselves. You don't have a meaningful relationship with yourself, it means you are full of regrets. Regrets are the pushback to a meaningful So

[01:16:27] Troy Van Vliet: then coming full circle is your I don't know that you can have a true meaningful relationship with yourself without faith. God,

[01:16:37] Rolando Islas: because there is no hope.

[01:16:39] Troy Van Vliet: There is no hope. You know, it falls back to the other: why are we here? What are we doing here? Right? It's like, well, if can't keep my eyes on the horizon, all this noise, everything here is just going to depress me because there's so many things to worry about, so many things to busy yourself with, so many negative things to focus on that we get bombarded with every day as well.

[01:17:00] And then fake happiness things, which just depress us more because we think I'm supposed to be doing this, but instead I'm, you know, working, you know, I'm supposed to be on a vacation in Hawaii, but here I am, you know, stuck at my job. And which is, I mean, if all we're doing is living for the next trip to Hawaii, which might come once every, you know, five years or something.

[01:17:21] Rolando Islas: And it goes like that and then goes into that depression.

[01:17:25] Troy Van Vliet: Yes, exactly. I

[01:17:27] Rolando Islas: really think that one thing that our younger generations don't understand and don't embrace is fragility. And I think that we find our true power, true selves in fragility is, if you know how to look. Like for example, I have a friend that she was in a trip and got into an accident and she ended up losing a leg. In that fragile moment, she had to make a decision either to just have, I mean, pity about her situation or whatever be sorry about what happened or embrace it. Embrace it and all of a sudden the purpose that was a little bit fuzzy because if you think about purpose, that's another big one.

[01:18:27] If you think about purpose today in a cultural way is money builds happiness or fame, it means acceptance. And there are these stereotypical formulas. When you are in front of your fragility, purpose becomes clear, Super clear. I need to get back on my feet without the leg. And I am not going to walk away with my life because of this, which is a temptation, right?

[01:19:01] This is what

[01:19:02] Troy Van Vliet: Well, it's a choice right there. I can do this or I can do that.

[01:19:05] Rolando Islas: But if you have solid moral grounds, you will embrace your fragility because everyone is fragile. Mean, even the most powerful people in the world, you see their fragility all the time in the news. It's how they stumble with it and they despise it. They don't want to show it. Well, here the proposition is to embrace it because then you might be able to find your purpose.

[01:19:32] And when you have a purpose, everything becomes clear. You have a bearing. It's something grounds you. Now, go back to Catholic education. Man, you're fragile.

[01:19:49] Embrace it. It is. Embrace it and deal with it. And I will help you deal with it. These are in my view the certainties that we have to instead of despising them because we don't want to show our fragility, we don't want to suffer, we don't want the roughness of life.

[01:20:18] Life is rough.

[01:20:20] Troy Van Vliet: Best embrace it, otherwise it's gonna kill you.

[01:20:23] Rolando Islas: And we need to understand also that it's just like, I mean, nature is screaming at us even in this subatomic craziness. Is, life is becomes when it is, I mean, when it is observed by the others. This is when you or by the one who is trying to conduct an experiment or whatever. When is that life becomes complete? When you die.

[01:21:02] That is the moment that you, all your decisions, everything that you chose, everything becomes this. Right. Troy was this guy. He's not becoming anything else. He's this guy.

[01:21:18] I think that the one thing that our youth need to understand is that if everything goes right, this guy moment is far away. So they can become a ton of things that they have to choose. And it I mean, they don't necessarily have to be related to be rich or famous or accepted by everyone because I I mean, these are the basic needs in even Maslow's pyramid. I want to have social acceptance and then self love comes from the outside because everybody loves me. So I must love me.

[01:22:02] We are in the middle these really really troubled times. Yeah. And I think we need to really look back to how is that we are educating our

[01:22:19] Troy Van Vliet: youth. Yeah. I'm happy to say that I think our school is going in the right direction when it comes to that. And we're really conscious of it in terms of our schools growing, it's going to grow really fast and we're going to have it's not just Catholics, there's, you know, people of all walks of life are welcome. But what we need to be is the influencers, not the influenced.

[01:22:45] They're coming to our school for a reason and that's to be influenced as to the morals of our faith. And that's why I think the Catholic liberal arts program is important going forward because it's putting that faith in all the courses. It's putting it in everything. So, it's not just in religion class as we talked about already. It's in the sports, it's out in the field, and when you run out in the field you don't just leave your religion on the sidelines and then pick it up when you come off.

[01:23:20] You got to play with everything, you know, with that base and that foundation and everything You you can learn a great science program or philosophy program in any secular school and you can have a great sports program in any secular school. But the faith we believe in by mind, body and spirit and the spirit needs to be nurtured through grounding in faith. And I'm proud to say we're figuring that out. Well, it's been figured out a long time ago, but I mean at our school we're doing our best to keep that in the forefront and people are listening and people are saying I want to come to your school because of that. Know, want to come to your school because my kid needs a

[01:24:06] Rolando Islas: And we need to understand as parents and as teachers and educators and everything that these efforts increase the probabilities. But they don't necessarily mean that they are going to work for everyone. I mean, is a monster that we are

[01:24:27] Troy Van Vliet: fighting. Well and like we said, that's why you know at home you're the number one educator and then the school is supposed to be an extension of your home and you're supposed to be working together with the school not just dropping them off and saying okay you raise my kid for me. Yeah, that's dangerous. That's what the government wants in the public system.

[01:24:46] Rolando Islas: Oh yeah.

[01:24:47] Troy Van Vliet: They're Yeah, because that's it's easier to manipulate.

[01:24:50] Rolando Islas: Yeah, we are in there. I mean, that's another big problem. It's just the economy of boats against the moral values and demands of what their work. I mean should be. Yeah.

[01:25:09] It's, they, I mean that's really a dangerous path because of all of these rules of complexity. Right. As I was saying even as businessmen and everything I have been working with a couple of universities and I think I mentioned that last time. One in Rome and one in Chile. And I am here alone in Canada because, oh, I have the support of the university to a certain point, but these guys have the full support.

[01:25:52] They developed a program that is called Governance in Complexity. It's about, I believe, seven weeks program that is done online. Teaching people about all of these saying, well, you have to change your set of mind into whatever you put in motion is going to touch, all sorts of, of people and places and whatever. So as a businessman, you have to be aware of these. You have to have a strong ethical foundation.

[01:26:32] As a parent, you have to have this, also this strong ethical foundation. And, but most of all, you need to understand that these are just probable outcomes. So, they teach about these frameworks and one story that really got my attention, as I was telling you, some of these frameworks have been developed by the US military.

[01:27:00] Troy Van Vliet: Right.

[01:27:01] Rolando Islas: Yeah. I heard one of the, of the, guys, I don't know if they're generals or whatever that developed one of these frameworks that, when he was asked, what is that, these, these frameworks require from us to work? And the guy, you know, with his uniform and everything, his humility. This teaches us to be humble. Right.

[01:27:30] Because it's we have to change the set of mind from control to probable. Because nature is indifferent to our whims. It's nature is is like, if you want to be floating and you in and and this is a a good way to put it. If you want to kill god, okay, it's your choice. Is God going to disappear because you said he's gone?

[01:28:00] No. It's indifferent to well, God is not that indifferent. He will say, come on, man. Yeah,

[01:28:08] Troy Van Vliet: yeah, coming back.

[01:28:09] Rolando Islas: But it's, I mean,

[01:28:11] Troy Van Vliet: But you can separate yourself.

[01:28:13] Rolando Islas: Yeah. So it's, this is the thing that we need to get back to our senses. Now, in a way, I am not sure about this, but this seems to be what is happening in The US. You see, they are decelerating some things. Is the relationships, I mean, things that seem not to make sense might have an answer in these complexity approaches.

[01:28:45] They are putting some strains in their economic relationships with the world, which I think they are going to decelerate. I mean, whatever is going on. They are also decelerating in immigration. Not in the best way, not in the most ethical way, but they are closing their borders. They are in a way taking a step back.

[01:29:16] The big question is who's going to follow? Or are we going to follow or not? But it seems to be what they are trying to do at the end. Let's try to get these things under control. Immigration was, getting out of control was getting too complex.

[01:29:35] Let's, just take the pedal from the gas and figure it out. Economics the same thing is we are becoming an economy of consumption more than production. Oh yeah. And I don't know, are they going to be able? I don't know.

[01:29:56] Once the consumerist idea or concept, I mean it's in your brain, it's going to be very difficult to learn.

[01:30:07] Troy Van Vliet: It's very difficult to break that habit. It's an addiction, consumerism. And it starts really young. It's pretty tough to deprogram yourself when it comes to that and to break those habits. Wow.

[01:30:19] Well, it's going to be fascinating to watch over the next. Oh, can give me, say, five years from now in terms of what, you know, how things are going to be changing. And I think now more than ever, we have to morally equip our kids for the future because that's what's going to separate, I think, you know, those that continue to live and thrive in a humanistic way and those who become absolutely miserable and fall into the trap.

[01:30:52] Rolando Islas: Yeah. And this idea of that we were talking about liberal arts still, I mean, makes like a short circuit in my mind. If we understand it in this way, we need to develop an art to liberate ourselves from the oppression now of So it's in a way the act or the education that I am proposing is an act of rebellion against technology. We need to oppose to these in a way that we make good use of technology, but don't let technology use us. It has to be a tool.

[01:31:43] We cannot become the byproduct of whatever technology is.

[01:31:48] Troy Van Vliet: Right now, me at the end of this phone, I am the product. I am what's being sold. Television used to do that, know, the TV stations used to be selling the viewers as the product, right? That's how they would get there and they would sell their advertising dollars to, in essence get to the viewer which was the Market product that they're

[01:32:15] Rolando Islas: research or whatever is I'm learning. Now we have something that is called neuromarketing. I don't know if you have heard about that.

[01:32:25] Troy Van Vliet: Sounds scary though.

[01:32:26] Rolando Islas: Yeah. This neuro marketing, they measure all sorts of, of things going on in, in the person who's watching the ad, the different stimuli being. Yeah, they follow your eyes. They, your heart rate. Some of them put like, the things in your brain to see which, I mean, zones are Yeah.

[01:32:51] Being triggered And in that sense, they design a product, not that you need, but that you are going to want and say yes to the, like to the, that buy button that you have in the brain. Like, yes, I want it. Do I need it? Think about, for example, I mean, brands and things like that, that they, I mean, you have these, bags made of plastic full of, of the logo of the brand because they, they mean that you are wealthy. But these, at the end, it's just a plastic bag.

[01:33:33] And probably, mean, a very fancy plastic or a very high quality bag, don't know.

[01:33:43] Troy Van Vliet: Oh I know, never ends in terms of marketing, terms of the brands are everywhere you know and that's a whole another thing.

[01:33:53] Rolando Islas: The technologies freedom that we need to find is we need to just don't care. And then these will bring our life into balance. Meaningful relationships with the outside, but meaningful to what is really my purpose.

[01:34:17] Troy Van Vliet: Exactly. Keep your eyes on the horizon.

[01:34:19] Rolando Islas: Yeah. If you ask and how it People, what is their purpose in life? Most of them are going to tell you that, well, the purpose will be to have enough money to live a good life. Right. Like,

[01:34:35] Troy Van Vliet: don't know. What is a good life? Exactly. And the way it goes down the rabbit hole. So, it's great to have you back.

[01:34:42] And it's always so stimulating for me to have a conversation with you. So, although half the time you're way above my pay grade

[01:34:51] Rolando Islas: in terms of education. So,

[01:34:54] Troy Van Vliet: thank you very much. And I'm sure we'll have you back again to continue for you to be able to share your philosophical views on everything.

[01:35:04] Rolando Islas: Thank you Troy and hopefully this will help people to reflect a little bit and give themselves a little space and come to terms with their technology.

[01:35:16] Troy Van Vliet: Yes, for sure, for sure. And I'm gonna take you up on that offer to be on our society board as well for the school. So I'm gonna be pressing you on Now it's on record here.

[01:35:27] Rolando Islas: Okay. No worries. Yeah. All

[01:35:31] Troy Van Vliet: right. Thanks so much, Fernando. And we'll have you back and thank you everybody for tuning in again today. And we hope to see you again soon. Be sure to watch the next couple of weeks.

[01:35:42] We've got great, great interviews coming up. Everybody have a super day.

[01:35:46] Rolando Islas: Thank you.

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