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This is part 3 of the popular Urban Awareness series where Travis Bader speaks with retired 35 year veteran of the Vancouver Police Department about dealing with situations of violence. In this episode, we explore the realities of what to expect after the incident. Avoiding and surviving the incident is important and dealing with with aftermath can mean the difference between winning the battle and winning the war.
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The Silvercore Podcast explores the mindset and skills that build capable people. Host Travis Bader speaks with hunters, adventurers, soldiers, athletes, craftsmen, and founders about competence, integrity, and the pursuit of mastery, in the wild and in daily life. Hit follow and step into conversations that sharpen your edge.
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We are episode three
of the urban awareness
series where our
discussions will revolve
around what to expect
after the incident.
But first Paul, now you
recalled something that
you wanted to clear
up from episode two.
Um, in the last podcast.
I couldn't remember the
name of Brian Willis.
And he is the president
of the, uh, of the
Winning Mind Training
and company, er training.
Uh, and that WIN
principle, what's
important now, is
the most important
question in life.
And his training, uh,
tells you how to develop
that concept and not
to horn in any more
on him and issues with
copyright, but I just
want to promote Brian
Willis at this point.
And, uh, and his, what is
important now, principles
for both everyday
living for normal people
and police training.
Excellent.
Met him about out 30
something years ago
in Ottawa, we were at
the Canadian Police
College together,
and I was immediately
struck with the guy.
Uh, enjoyed, uh, the
time I spent with him
stayed in touch for a
little bit lost track
and sure enough, he
turns up, uh, delivering
his WIN program at the,
um, I guess it was the,
yeah, it was the, uh,
city Vancouver Tactical
Training Centre and lo
and behold, there's Brian
and I look at them and
one of the things that
became important to him
was lose weight, and
boy did he ever, he was
hardly recognizable,
but that's that's it.
Awesome.
WIN, I like it.
What's important now.
Well, after you've
won, what happens?
So we're in the after
now, we had the, before
the, during and after,
now after, Paul, have
you ever found yourself
in a situation where you
have had a argument, or
disagreement, something's
happened and you spend
a lot of time afterwards
thinking about, oh, I
should've done this, or
I should've said that.
I think everyone's
had that.
And there's a very easy
way to help minimize
the effects of that.
And that's by properly
preparing before and
understanding what
this whole after
section looks like.
Yeah.
The 20-20
hindsight, right?
Tell me about it.
Everyone's got that in
crystal clear vision.
And, and, you know, that
happens with everything.
You know, you buy a
car, uh, you've got20-20
hindsight, buyer's
remorse, all those
things, you know, that.
And there's stress in
buying a car, I don't
care who you are.
There's you know, that
first meeting with
another person who you
have an affection for,
and you go, oh, as you're
driving away from the
disaster of that meeting
and re-living the moment.
But we're talking
about some serious
stuff here and some
of the things that can
affect you afterwards.
And I know we alluded
to, um, Joseph Wambaugh
and the onion field, and
you know, what happened
to those officers
after the moment, but
you really got to in
the planning stage for
the three phases of,
you know, a critical
incident, this now we
actually need to plan for
post critical incident.
Now the term PTSD post
traumatic stress disorder
is, is used a lot.
And it's a very,
very real thing.
It's evolving.
It, it does.
And, and our treatment
of it and our acceptance
of it, and our
recognition of who can
be involved in an, in
it's not just a first
responders thing as well.
Um, it was interesting
today listening to local
radio station, top of the
news, you know, they're
going through some of
the highlights and in
light of the recent, uh,
number of these open air
shootings, uh, targeted
hits, they're asking the
people, how do they feel?
What do they think?
And, and they're not only
reaching out to people
who haven't experienced
that the, the public
in general, but I think
they're starting to
talk to the people that
are there and, and that
can be, you know, a
lot of stuff going on.
Um, survivor's
guilt is part of
post-traumatic stress.
Um, and that is E
nothing happened to me.
I'm here and I feel
bad because, was there
more I could have
done, Did I you know,
put, you know what,
that's one, you should
never feel bad about.
Survivor's guilt, um, is,
you know, a real thing.
Uh, it can be treated
of course, as any kind
of, uh, disorder, as
a result of something
like this, you know,
getting treated for it is
probably one of the plans
you should have if you've
been through something
like this and you think
that you should just
ride it out afterwards
and not talk to a pro.
Forget about it.
Pardon my expression,
but you're a crazy.
Like that, uh, if you've
been somewhere and
something of this high
order occurs in front of
you and you're just gonna
shake it off and tell
your friends, not good.
So after an incident,
whether that was a
physical altercation,
whether there's a weapon
involved, whether,
uh, maybe it was just
a verbal altercation
that somebody was in.
How bought a horrible car
accident in front of you.
Right.
If I'm personally
involved in that
incident, one of the
first things that I will
tend to do is give a
quick rapid body survey,
make sure I don't have
things sticking out
to me that shouldn't
be sticking out at me.
Maybe when the adrenaline
kicked in, I didn't feel
things as I normally
would and make sure that
there isn't any immediate
medical attention that I
need in order to be able
to continue surviving
after the first incident.
So that's one
of the things.
I will then look to
those around me and
see, are they in
the same situation.
Is everybody else okay.
Right.
Uh, and then there's
going to be the
physiological effects
of the adrenaline
wearing off and
the shakes and the.
Extreme fatigue.
Huge.
And knowing that that's
normal, knowing that
this is a very natural
response that the
body has to critical
incident stress.
And when all of this
stuff kinda, abates
there, if the police are
involved, be prepared
to be questioned as if
you were possibly the
bad guy, the bad person.
Yeah.
So we'll just,
lets just clarify.
And we'll talk,
you know, post
incident, this is it.
This is where you did get
involved in something.
You were, you got,
you got physical with
somebody or, or they
got physical with you.
And, and there was,
there was a conflict,
there was a physical,
uh, contact and
everything went that way.
Okay.
So we'll keep our focus
on that maybe as, so
in the immediate after
at, excellent, check
yourself out, have
somebody else look, look
through your hair, look
through all these other
things, make sure that
there's nothing leaking.
And because what happened
when, during, when you
had that huge adrenaline
dump that also can send
all kinds of, you know,
natural painkillers
throughout your body to
keep you in the fight.
And now that may start
to, uh, to start to
show up, check the
people around you.
Absolutely.
One step before that,
are you a hundred
percent safe at that
moment before we
start doing that?
Like, we need that
one in there now.
Now we are safe.
We've checked ourselves
out, we've gone over.
The hands start to
shake, potentially.
Um, and again, I it's,
it's a lot, uh, based on
how much you've trained
beforehand, whether
that's going to happen.
And I gotta be, you know,
forthright with this,
the, the person that got
through it, got through
it on a minimal amount of
training without a whole
lot of rehearsal, likely
to feel those immediate
effects a little bit
more than the trained
person and, you know, um,
your cognitive effects,
starting to come back
at this point as well.
Thinking of the bigger
picture, I have seen
people that are just
they're, it's over,
it's done, everything's
safe, but they're
still not there.
They're, you know,
running around in circles
there they're having
problems processing what
they just went through
and the more trained
person is now realizing,
okay, what are the
next steps involved?
You know.
So, uh, you know, I
don't know, without
getting into too many
specifics, but you know,
the subject is down
and out and there's
no fight left in it.
The one plus one rule, is
there anybody else, who's
checking to see that,
who's watching, who's
administering first aid?
You know, all these
sorts of things
are important, um.
Make sure the
police are called if
needed or ambulance
.
Absolutely!
Preservation of any
evidence that may be
potentially there.
All these things, you
know, are in that moment.
But let's just, again,
going back to the
handshaking, one of the
things that people want
to do is now make it
look like they're normal
and the emotion of maybe
some, like, maybe it's
appropriate if I'm I'm
upset with myself and
started saying things
like, oh, I should have
done something else.
Maybe this, you
know, when it
turned out so bad.
They start acting it up.
Yeah.
Uh, and w a true feeling
that comes from a lot
of this stuff, if you
did win, and you did it
successfully, is a sense
of overwhelming pride
and satisfaction that
gee whiz, I did that.
And you know, what, if
you've laid waste to
somebody physically,
whatever the case may be,
people started thinking,
well, you blood thirsty
son of a gun, you know,
daughter of a gun maybe.
And, and how dare
you feel good
about what you did?
Well, it's not wrong.
No, it's natural.
And, and, and now we're
going to save this for
just a little bit later
in the aftermath, and
who's appropriate to
tell this to, but don't
hide that from yourself.
It's not a wrong
thing to feel in that
immediate aftermath.
It's not, you know, pride
in yourself, relief.
You want to
congratulate yourself.
You, you know, you,
you, you go, oh my
God, I like, that was
me that ended that.
There's nothing
wrong with that.
Mhmm.
Now turning around to
the TV camera, that's
shown up and they shove
a microphone in your
face and wanting to,
you know, fist pump
and, and everything else
in that circumstance,
we'll save it.
Right.
High five's for everyone.
Yeah.
Let's not do that
at that moment.
Whereas you've seen
time and time again in
a critical incident,
law enforcement, the
military, uh, they've,
they've gone and just
overcome a situation
of extreme stress.
And the next thing you
know, they high five
each other, and that
gets captured on camera.
Right.
Well, you know what.
There's no context there
because nobody who's
watching that on TV or
in the taping afterwards
has the emotions that
those people have.
And were they
wrong emotions?
No.
Were they expressed
incorrectly and was
it captured on tape?
Absolutely.
And you know, and then
these things are hard
for the people, the non
sheepdogs to appreciate.
And, and, and you know
what, the wolves are
not just the people
that are attacking you.
The wolves are out
there in society
because they want to
suppress the sheepdog.
Sheepdog is always
a threat to a wolf.
Now the wolves may
not be physically
attacking, but the wolves
have agendas, right.
I'm getting a little
bit political here,
but that's the
way I really feel.
Mhmm.
I don't disagree
with you.
And if you can belittle
the sheepdog for doing
what the sheepdog
does, the sheep who
has no grounding
in the sheepdog's
purpose sees it.
So anyways, getting back
to in the immediate,
don't be embarrassed
by that feeling of,
of a sense of pride.
That's a good point.
Okay.
Don't be, you know, don't
be upset about that.
So we're in the immediate
here, your physical
self is taken care of.
You're feeling some
different emotions.
Okay.
Uh, don't be afraid
of that feeling that
that said I did the
right thing and don't
feel there's a huge
obligation at that moment
to start explaining
what you just did.
Law enforcement arrives,
first aid arrives,
whatever it's that
big of a thing they
need to talk to you.
Interesting thing
about law enforcement
arriving, just a
bit of a side note.
Whoever calls law
enforcement in
first tends to
wear a white hat.
So if you're able to
get on your cell phone
and get it out there
that, uh, you are the
reportee uh, you are
that entity that has
called the police.
Yeah, that's a good plan.
And that, that is, and
then you also set a bit
of a stage by, you know,
relating a little bit,
but what you got to be
careful of is if you
did cause physical harm
to another individual,
even though it was in
complete defense of your
own self, you don't want
to be too willing to try
and explain everything
in the moment, because
what you're not realizing
is in that 24 hours
following an extremely
stressful event, you're
still suffering those
effects, those good
effects that you had of.
Um, I suppose like we
call it, uh, a wrinkle
in the space time
continuum, but really
visual narrowing,
auditory, exclusion,
um, depth perception,
all of these things are
altered in the moment.
Okay.
Um, people, you know,
say, oh man, I got the
guy and the time it took
for him to, you know, to
do you really don't have
the grounding to start
talking a lot about that.
You're kind of the
worst possible witness
to your own event.
Right.
Because you've
got a very, very
narrow perspective
of what happened.
Whereas somebody
else looking at this
might have a much
better perspective.
And one of the things
we see in today's world
is the reliability of
eye witness accounts of
what really happened.
A really good
investigator will
rely much more on the,
whatever they have
for physical evidence.
You know, so where the,
you know, the blood
splatter is, where the
casing lands, all those
things are way more,
you know, absolute than
what a person says.
And I would just,
honestly, from having
been there myself,
say look, I want to be
completely cooperative
with everybody right
now, but my statement
may be affected by the
feelings that I have.
And that's, that's the
thing, be prepared to say
that I'm not withholding
anything, but without
having the chance to
talk to someone who's not
involved and the time for
me to gather my thoughts.
I will give you
a full statement
tomorrow, or later.
And it's very tough for,
and haven't been one
for as long as I was,
for cop to accept that.
Right.
And say.
They're not good.
They're not going to
want to, they want
the whole story.
They want it now, they
want to get the report
written and, and get
the investigation
underway and all
these other things.
Well if you've got
nothing to hide, why
wouldn't you talk?
That's right.
Yes, exactly.
And that's, you
know, that is it.
And you don't have
anything to hide, but.
You don't.
But in the interest and
you got to, you know,
explain and articulate
this properly, in the
interest of accuracy,
I'm not prepared.
Now, if the situation is
still ongoing, somebody
has fled the scene.
That's still important
to the investigation, by
all means, you gotta give
what sketchy details as
possible, but you need
to preface everything
that you're saying.
It's like, you know,
I'm telling you this,
now this is the best
I understand but the,
my absolute statement
that I'm going to live
and die for or buy is
not coming right now.
This isn't it, I'm,
I'm too close to the
incident for you to,
you know, uh, listen
all this stuff and, and
it is, it's very, very
tough to accept on the
part of an investigator,
but you know what?
This is you.
As I was sitting in
the major crime office,
I had been given my
rights that I didn't
have to say anything,
you know, just like on
TV and I'm there and I
said, yeah, that's fine,
I've called my lawyer.
Um, there is a
post-incident team that
will come and talk to
you, they're on their way
to come and talk to me.
But the, the sergeant
comes in and he says to
me, he says, you know,
uh, I know you, you
said you don't want to
say anything until you
speak to your lawyer,
but the forensic guys
at the scene, they
can't find the casing
from your pistol.
Uh, is there any chance
you picked it up?
We just need that and
you know, and I said, no,
it's in the mop bucket
in the hallway next to
where I was standing.
Cause now going back
to the moment and, and,
and all the things that
were going on when I
fired that shot in my
peripheral vision, I
saw the case arc up out
of the ejection port of
the pistol and somewhere
deep in the back of my
head, I still heard the
plunk sizz, and actually
a sizzle plunk of that
case going into a mop
bucket, it was in the
hallway of, of where the
shooting had occurred.
And I could see the
look on the sergeants
face like, oh, and
he's on the cell phone.
Okay rainman.
He's on the cell phone
to the forensic guy.
That's there
who's was a guy.
I know actually a
hunting partner.
And, uh, he goes, what?
You can hear
him saying this.
So anyways, got it.
And they just said,
got it, and that's
where it was.
But weird.
I took that in,
in that moment.
And you know, so, but the
point being is I wasn't
saying anything, I talked
to my lawyer, I gave the
statement to my lawyer,
um, that I recalled,
he was fine with that.
We got back together
later the next morning,
uh, to review the
statement, which
he had recorded and
then prepared for my
signature, which we were
going to offer up and
everything was fine.
There was no, you know,
there was no big if,
ands or anything, but we
wanted to get distances
and everything correct.
And, um, that next
day I went about some
business, which is
another interesting
thigh side to things,
gave my statement.
And then I get, you
know, in the police
world, what happens now
is they say, you know,
always sounds suspicious,
the officer has been
put on paid leave.
But they just basically
say, Hey, you know.
Take some time.
Take some time.
And they want you
to take some time.
In that time thing, the
only thing I wanted to do
was go back to the scene.
I really wanted
to see it again.
There was no
opportunity to do that.
I, you know, took
my couple of weeks,
whatever it was at
the time, uh, went
about my regular life.
I'll tell you, uh, in
that period of time,
one of the things
that bothered me more
than anything, um, you
know, and, and things
will irritate you is
everybody wants to
hear the story over and
over and over again.
Right.
And that's
totally normal.
It's normal for
people to want, cause
they want to learn.
They want to hear.
Right.
And there's nothing wrong
with talking about it.
But there's certain
people that you
probably want to avoid
talking to it about it.
It's been, I sought out
a couple other people
that have been there
and those were the ones
I want to talk about.
And that's nothing
wrong with that.
So in that post
situation, if, if
you can find somebody
to relate to, and in
many cases, you know,
the, the post critical
incident team that, uh,
those are people that
have been there and
they have, um, empathy.
Right.
And I think you
bring up a good
point about talking
about it afterwards.
It's an important thing
to do, but there's a
right way and a wrong
way, to talk about it
because, as research
looks at how our brains
work or prefrontal
cortex which has got
our decision-making and
our short-term memory
and our hippocampus
we'll take our long-term
memory, our amygdala
will hold our emotions.
And as we start
processing certain
types of events
and our prefrontal
cortex, it'll start
downloading hard copies
into your hippocampus
and your amygdala.
And even though you
aren't actually in a
certain situation at that
certain time, you will
recount those emotions as
if you were, and if you
continually download the
information into those,
into those storage banks.
It's like a
flushing almost.
In the improper way.
It's like, and I, and I
liken it to going down
a dirt road and you wore
some tracks in there.
The more you drive the
same road, the deeper
those tracks get, and the
harder it is to get out,
which is a big part about
where PTSD, critical
incident stress and PTSD,
um, theory and therapy
is being worked on.
How do we get the brain
out of that rut and
those tracks in order
to be able to view the
same from a perspective
as it ought to be.
So talking
important, I told.
Yes.
Talking to the police at
the time of the event.
You're the worst
possible witness.
Nope.
Yeah, you're not a good
witness at that time.
Talking it out with
somebody, the idea is
also about culpability.
You know, if there's any,
um, somebody wants to
make some suggested that
you did something wrong.
Do you remember anybody
you talk to, uh, can
also be called later,
uh, as, as a, you know,
as a witness to you.
So, you know, the
best person to talk to
about this is somebody
who cannot testify
against you, which
is your psychologist
or a psychiatrist or
someone like that.
And getting in and
before that person to do
your initial download,
oh, the lawyer also
is very good, lawyers.
Sure.
You know, and
they can listen.
They may have no
grounding in it, but
they can certainly,
uh, listen to you.
And then the lawyer is
not gonna look at you
say, geez, you should
leave that part out
of your statement.
Cause they don't do that.
No.
You know, that's
not what they do.
I mean, if you've really
done some significant
harm to somebody,
but you got out of
it that way, a lawyer
is definitely there.
If the whole situation
we're talking about is
maybe you've defended
yourself against a sexual
attack or a robbery.
Okay.
Um, talk, one of the
things you see the
police is I only get
my statement now, but
I sure want to talk to
somebody and I want to
talk to the right people.
In today's world, most
of the time that police
might be the very best
resource you have for
directing you to do that.
Despite everything
that people want to
say, today's police
officer is trained to
understand the effects
of post traumatic stress.
And they are told, they
are told that victims
are going to feel that.
And almost every agency
has some form of victim
services, uh, that will
be available to you.
And, and don't, don't
be that person that's,
ohh, I don't want to
talk to anybody about
this, you know, I'm
going to be okay.
I'm going to run home
until my wife and tell,
you know, my friends and
I'm going to, you know,
have a couple of beers.
Cause it was
exciting too.
That's that's another
tendency that you
have, you know, like,
wow, I'm, I'm alive
and I'm okay and.
You're happy.
Well, you know, there's
probably a much more male
thing to do, you know,
but to go out and get
together with your buds
and tell them about it.
Um, some people can be
effected at a deeply,
deeply emotional
level by this.
You got to
deal with that.
And the sooner
it happens.
And done with a
professional who can
carry you forward,
that's a good thing.
And it's going to affect
everyone differently.
Yeah.
I mean, people are gonna
have different, uh,
cognitive resiliencies.
Uh, they're going to be
in different situations.
I remember talking about
a, um, uh, uh, there was
a study once about these
vets from world war one
fighting in world war
two in some horrific
instances where they
figured that the younger,
stronger soldiers would
be out surviving the
older ones and they
found the inverse was
true because the older
ones had developed these
cognitive resiliencies
and they look at, and
they say, you know, my,
my second divorce was
worse than this, right?
Like, whereas a young
guys in there, this is
a worst thing that's
ever happened to them.
And you know, again,
going back to the
policing and I don't mean
to bore people by talking
about, but it's what
I know, what I've been
around in a lot of cases.
Um, some of the, the
crazier stuff that I've
been involved in while I
was on duty, I would have
rather been surrounded
by, you know, a bunch of
gray haired, fat guys,
you know, that, uh, could
keep their wits about
them than the strongest
fittest, you know.
Right.
That are there.
And, and I hate to say
that and no disrespect
to people who maintain
a high level of physical
fitness and everything
else, but gray hair
and some experience can
sometimes be a little
bit better, even though
you don't think they
have the physical,
uh, abilities, but.
A couple other things
like, you know,
immediately after, if
the thing that happened
is big enough and
almost everything is
big enough today, it's
going to hit the media.
And then you're
going to have a
whole bunch of people
armchair quarterback,
what you did.
Right.
Doing podcast, funny
enough, people armchair
quarterback what you say.
Yeah, they do.
And you know, it's as a
person who tries to pride
himself in the ability
to communicate things,
sometimes you're not
communicating, you know,
your point correctly,
or the other person
wants to take something
tangentially away.
Sure.
And then you, you, you
know, your dander gets
up when you go, does this
person just not get it?
Did I not communicate
everything correctly?
And they're never,
we're never gonna make
everybody happy, but
yeah, if you've been in
it and all of a sudden,
and this happened,
listening on the radio
the next day to a chief
of police, it wasn't
really a chief of police
because that organization
never had them, is
being interviewed on
the local radio station.
And he's telling
everybody about, you
know, all the things that
the officer involved in
the shooting yesterday
would be feeling and
everything else, and
I'm going, you know,
you weren't there.
Right.
You weren't there.
And I had the opportunity
to track that guy down.
After I had done my,
you know period of time
off, he happened to be
making a presentation
on that very subject.
And I made a point
of going and I went
up to him afterwards
and I says, you know,
you've been talking a
lot about this stuff.
You talked about me,
you never met me, you
never interviewed me,
you weren't at the scene.
And you made a whole
bunch of things
into factual points.
Yes.
That weren't factual.
And I think that
is human nature.
Oh!
You want to fill in
the blanks, right.
Totally.
But it's so difficult
for the person who
is in it for the
survivor of the event.
Who knows exactly
what went on.
Right.
And it comes down to.
And when we talk about
being a witness to our
own event, and maybe
we're not the best and
me being a third-party
witness watching would
be better, but maybe
not the most reliable as
well, even video cameras
are being shown to be
an unreliable witness in
certain circumstances.
I remember I was at a
conference and there
was some guys that are
doing some high-level
forensics work with video
and looking at about
the frame rate and lost
frames and the speed
that it goes at and end.
It can actually tell
a different story than
what really happens.
So I guess what I'm
trying to get at
with all of this is,
everybody's different.
Everyone's going to have
different resiliencies.
Everyone's going to find
themselves in a situation
maybe they leave and it
means nothing to them.
Or maybe it's a worst
thing in the world to
them, whatever it is,
this critical incident
stress that they're
feeling is a natural
physiological response
to an unnatural event.
And that's it.
And they should just
simply accept that for
it, what it is, how
I'm feeling right now,
whether it's the guilt,
whether it's the anger,
whether it's a depression
or whatever it might be.
Hey, this is actually
pretty natural in the
same way is if I got
a hammer to my knee
cap and that hurts,
is a natural response.
And everyone's going to
be a little different
in how that reacts.
Correct.
And I got a funny
story on that one.
But if you get that
hammer to the kneecap,
do you just go home and
put some ice on it or
do you go get x-rays
and get a doctor to look
at it and tell you to
put it back together?
Right.
And this is the thing
your emotions may not be
good enough just to put a
little bit of ice on it.
And the underlying
thing of a very high
level stress incident
to you is it's, it's
gotta be dealt with.
It's got, it and, and.
And the sooner
the better.
Correct.
And so, and you're,
you're, you're going to
go forward and you're
going to listen to that
person, the right person
as well, pick and choose.
Okay.
It's it's like, um, you
know, do some reviews on,
on who the person is, you
know, you, you don't want
to go to, you know, uh,
uh, a particular field of
study psychologist that
doesn't deal with post
critical incident stress.
I mean, you know,
the Randy Mackoffs,
the Georgia Nemetz,
those type of people.
Right.
They know.
Right.
They are the
ones that you'll.
And both of them happened
to work with police.
Yeah.
Police.
And that's where,
you know, we gotta be
upfront about this.
The people in the
military, people in
the police, um, all the
first responders are
much more likely to have
experienced this stuff.
And, and, and, and,
and that's the thing.
So, you know, reach out
to these people, um.
The one point on
that though, if,
if I can quickly.
One of many.
The one of many.
If I can quickly
interject is, quite
often, I find that the,
an, a person who finds
themselves in a situation
like this will look and
say, well, I'm not a,
I'm not a police officer.
I don't see the
atrocities that
they see, I'm not a
soldier, I haven't
seen the atrocities
that they've seen.
Regardless of your
background, whatever the
effects you're feeling
could be the exact same
as what somebody has
seen an atrocity to
something, the effects
that are having on your
mind and your body.
And there is there's
one story that I read
talking about PTSD
uh, I don't know if we
talked about this one
before Paul, the, uh,
the chocolate bar eater.
Have you heard this one?
Nope.
Okay.
So this guy goes
he's in the states.
He goes into a corner
store and he gets
himself a chocolate
bar, gets halfway
through the chocolate
bar before he realizes
it's full of maggots.
Okay.
Goes to the shopkeeper,
says chocolate bar's
got maggots in it,
I'm pretty revolted.
Shop keeps us, sorry,
here's a refund,
get yourself another
chocolate bar, whatever,
have a good day.
The guys good,
he goes home.
But then he starts
having nightmares and
dreams about magots
being in his food.
And then he says he
doesn't want to go
to church anymore.
Cause he figures
everyone's going to
be talking about him
and laughing at him.
He's humiliated as
the magot eater.
Right.
And then he's having
these recurring thoughts.
He's having avoidance
of things that
he usually likes.
He's having depression,
all off of eating
something that some
people in the world would
readily eat anyways.
Right.
Just worms, larva,
maggots, whatever
it might be.
You or I might look
at this and say,
that's nothing, but
how that affected this
person exhibited all
the signs of PTSD.
So if somebody listening
to this finds themselves
in a situation, then they
say, well, I don't, I'm
embarrassed to go see
a doctor, to talk about
somebody because I'm
having these thoughts
or it's affecting
me in these ways.
I'm feeling grief, fear,
guilt, intense anger,
irritability, chronic
anxiety, apprehension,
or, or depression.
And yes, I'm reading this
off of a list right now,
but these are all sort of
the emotional things that
that can be happening.
It doesn't matter.
It, no, one's going
to think less of you.
You've got to get
that addressed.
Absolutely.
Now, and you know,
as you're saying that
there's real symptoms
and if you're not
trained to recognize
these real symptoms,
they're gonna, it's, it's
gonna, it's gonna go.
Um, one of the things
that was really noted
with people who weren't
getting treatment after,
you know, and in the
police world and in
today's police world, man
is as soon as something
sketchy has occurred
while you're working, the
supervisors are there,
the managers are on top
of the supervisors to
make sure that everybody
gets it addressed.
Guys used to, you know,
back in the old days.
And I mean, the old
days were when I first
started in the late
seventies, you know,
something happened, it
was straight to the, you
know, the liquid, um,
you know, self-medicate,
and, and let's sit around
those, you know, little
tables and we'll talk
this out, lots of laughs
and everything else.
Right.
And you know what, it
was very reassuring
at the time everybody
had a, a good go
with it and so on.
And what happened,
uh, with that kind
of treatment for that
kind of an incident.
It really had no long
lasting effect in
the moment it felt
good to have a couple
of drinks, uh, numb
yourself a little bit
and, and go home, sleep
it off, or do whatever
you were going to do.
But the cumulative
effect, if, if you don't
get things treated and
this is where, when
you, you, you hear about
people like, oh, you
know, they saw something
horrible happen and you
know, they didn't really
feel that bad about it.
And then they something
else, you know, and you
know, the old happen in
threes, I really believe
in that things, you know.
So when people say,
well, I've seen something
like this, it's never
going to happen again.
Oh, boom.
It happens, you know?
And then, yeah.
And then the third time
after it's over, they
completely breakdown.
Mm.
And maybe the third
time wasn't that big,
but there was something
in their psyche that
triggered all this other
stuff that they were
holding back and I'm no
psychologist or anything
else, but, but we see
it again and again in
untreated people, right.
That's the important
part being, you know,
unarmed for the next one.
And the only way you're
going to get armed and
prepared for the next
one is to get that
professional help.
Right.
So we got to tell
it and, and nobody
should be ashamed.
And a traumatic
event could be seeing
a car accident.
A traumatic event could
be seeing somebody fall
off a mountain side while
you're rock climbing,
you know, watch somebody
fall and get hurt, right.
A traumatic event to
some people could be
seeing literally a body
being taken out of a, you
know, a drowning victim
or something like that.
Sure.
That, you know, you
don't need to see that.
And that's one of the
things, again, societaly,
we'll see, you know,
whole people going, oh
my God, look at that.
There's a yellow blanket
over that person,
let's see if we can
get a little closer.
No, you don't
need to see that.
Leave it.
Don't subject yourself
to it anymore then you've
put something in there.
You don't need to
wonder about it or
anything else, because
it will actually
help you continue on.
You don't need
to get close.
You don't need
to see blood or
anything like that.
It's, it's shocking
how people will come
up and want to take
pictures of blood
and everything else.
You don't need that
because you were
actually, and especially
if you drag a kid up to
see it or anything else.
Right.
You don't know what
that does to kids.
So, uh, be um.
That's a good point.
You know, you're
not only responsible
in the after-effect
for yourself, the
rapid body survey.
You're.
Yeah.
And your emotional
wellbeing and physical
well-being, you're
responsible for your
loved ones and those that
you care for and make
sure that maybe you're
not the right person for
them to be talking with.
Right.
And maybe, it's
just engrained.
Like, it's like, you
don't know how your
kid took it, what they
saw and everything
else like that.
And that has happened,
you know, a bit of my own
life and everything else.
You don't realize how,
you know, emotionally
sensitive your kid might
be or how much damage
you can do to your kid
by saying, oh, just
toughen up and, you know,
get on with it right.
They don't even have
to be at the incident.
But they're responding
to you after the
incident and how
you're dealing with it.
That's a good point.
Um, a couple other things
too, and, and, in the,
um, old days when they
first started, you know,
in the very experimental
days of looking towards
post-traumatic stress
and the syndrome or
the disease or disorder
that would follow that,
they would tell you,
get, get ready for this.
And I did kind of
mention this, I think.
You did yes.
But, but truthfully,
don't listen to that,
you know, because the
self-fulfilling, um.
Prophecies.
Suggestions or
prophecies, because
you're, you know, again,
you're, you're, you're
not fragile, but you're
open to suggestion and.
Yep.
In these things and
you think, oh my
God, I've just seen
this horrible thing
what's happening next.
And here's how I
should respond next.
And you will, and you
don't want to do that.
Right.
So, you know, watch that.
Again, if, if
you shed a tear.
And you can't sleep
about something
you're affected by it.
And if you shed a
tear, when you just
think about something
after it's happened
a day or two, and you
can't sleep a couple
of days afterwards.
You're affected.
Oh yeah.
You know, those are
the things that, you
know, you, you've got
to reach out and it's
free in our system and
it's there, but going
back to it, don't think
because you're not an
official that you can't
be affected by this
stuff and to go on.
So I think we're good
in talking in the
immediate, you know,
the self-assessment,
we're talking in the
kind of short term of
getting the treatment.
So the long-term, if it
was something was being
initiated by a criminal
act, you need to expect
that there's going likely
to be the requirement
for you to recall
everything and maybe to
give evidence in court,
um, have your statement
that was provided at the
time be reviewed and,
and, and, and that stuff.
And that this becomes
another time where you
need to arm yourself for,
for a secondary attack.
Because remember, uh,
there are lots and lots
of wolves out there
and, and another form
of wolf appears to be
the person who would
defend them in court.
And you know what
the defense lawyer is
just doing their job.
They have no, nothing
personal against you
or anything else,
but suddenly you're,
you're put up there.
Uh, you're, you're
promising to tell
everything the truth and
this person's job is to
make you second guess
every single thing that
you know that happened.
So in preparation for
that court case, talk
to the prosecutor who
will be able to give
you, you know, the,
the legalities of what
you need to understand
about all this.
May, if the prosecutor
is particularly good,
give you some, again,
arrows in your quiver to
deal with the questions
that might be coming up
by maybe running a bit
of a mock trial, you
know, without the actual
thing happening, all
these sorts of things,
but you're ready for
it because peeling the
scab off, you know, the
you're just about healed.
There's a scab on there
and that court case could
very well pull the scab
off and get you thinking
about everything else.
So it's not wrong if that
happens and you have an
emotional reaction to
recounting what's there.
And it could be two
years in our system,
two, three years from
the time of the incident.
And that's just
for criminal, it
could be civil.
Oh yeah.
Now think.
Eight years later.
Well let's yeah.
Let's talk about
the civil, that's
the car accident.
Right.
That's the, you know,
the other thing, you
know, you saw somebody
slide down a collapsed
escalator in the mall.
Uh, you know, those
things will, will come.
So again, being prepared
to, you know, have
that return of those
emotions and then in
turn dealing with that.
So we, you know, we,
we make it so important
that you survived the
incident, whatever it is.
But surviving,
the aftermath
can be, you know.
It's massive.
Massive.
And that's probably
in days of yore where
we slipped up right.
And it was interesting,
you know, we saw probably
the first real, you know,
in your face is, is the
post Vietnam war time.
When the first world war
was fought, our brave
young men, uh, and, and
a lot of horses were
shipped off to places
unknown, you know, that
we couldn't communicate
that well with.
And when we came back,
we lauded them as heroes.
And we looked at
those guys that were
nervous and shaking
and couldn't deal with
things as being cowards.
Right.
But by four and away,
those were the guys
that, you know, suffered
the greatest effects.
In a lot of other
cases, these guys
that went off and they
came back, they were
welcomed with open arms.
They were, they were
loved for what they
did and, and, you
know, affection and
emotion can, you know,
um, again, I'm not a
psychologist everyone,
there is no doctor
before the Ballard here.
But what I'm saying is
it was different times.
The second world war,
those guys came back and
we were happy cause they,
you know, they, they put,
uh, fascism in its place
and they saved people
and they did all sorts
of things and we loved
them and there were still
guys going to hospital
and they were shaking
and they couldn't deal
with whatever, but we
didn't hear about that.
Well, there's a support
system in society
for these people.
That's right.
That supports.
It's accepted and.
That affection,
that love, that, you
know, that welcoming.
It frames how you
individually look at
the event differently if
you have that support,
if you don't have
that support, because
really, or what is it?
Shakespeare?
Uh, w what does he say?
There is neither
good, nor bad, but
thinking makes it so.
The way that we look at
things or Viktor Frankl,
the fellow who was in
the concentration camps,
lost everyone, everyone
he loved and he was a
doctor, and he looked
at the effects of these
Nazi concentration camps
on the psyche of people
while he's in there.
And he used his
time as a bit of an
experiment mentally to
keep himself rolling.
And he says, how come
some people can laugh and
joke, and other people
are absolutely falling
apart and they're both
in the same situation.
And he came out with what
was his famous quote?
The one thing that
you can't take from
me is the way that I
choose to respond to
what you do to me.
The last of life's
great freedoms is one's
ability to choose their
own attitude in any
given circumstance.
And so really being
able to choose your
own attitude sometimes
is predicated on
those around you.
If everyone looks at you
as the bad person, or
they look at what you do
as a joke in a story that
they tell over beers,
perhaps you start looking
at it in the same way.
But you can't allow
that to happen.
Let's let's continue on.
So second world
war, they come back.
Everything's, you know,
there are people clearly
affected, but the
majority are welcomed
back Vietnam war.
Right.
These guys, these us
soldiers, Marines,
airmen, sailors
coming back, they're
called baby killers.
Right.
Ah, you know, huge
protests against the war
and without getting into
politics, whether that
war was wrong or right.
And look at how long it
lasts a day, it lasted
from 1961 or two all the
way through, you know, 10
years of this going on.
And it was always kind
of a bit of a shadow
war and, and, you know,
with the ideals of,
you know, suppressing
communism, but never
really fought in the
fashion that a powerful
nation like the United
States would fight.
It was always sort
of fringe methods,
measures, right?
There was no, there
was an old overwhelming
defeat of the enemy.
There was no real, um,
at the end of it all.
There's no win.
There was no win, there
was no completion.
There was no satisfaction
that we went and
did the right thing.
And then when we get
back, our own people
are, you know, baby
killers and, you
know, horrible things.
And that's when we really
saw the preponderance of
post-traumatic stress.
Right.
These Vietnam vets
that were, you know,
starting to act out and
do things and, and go on,
and this is the start.
And then, you know, as
we have evolved in our
recognition of, of how
the body can be affected,
the mind can be effected
by the sort of stuff
we're seeing it better
off, but we're still
seeing, um, it happened,
but a lot of people
are being prevented
from acting out.
Now the thing is it's,
it's like so much,
there's so much media
attention to anything
like this that happens.
It looks like
there's more.
Right.
There isn't more, in
fact, there's probably
less of it now because
of the treatment, but.
Just gets more attention.
But there's more
attention when
it does happen.
And, and th this
again is like, you
know, to think, oh my
gosh, this is rampant.
It's not, you know,
don't, don't, don't
think that a, man, it
it's, it's an absolute,
that's going to be the
worst situation for me.
That guy had it way
worse than what you did
and look what happened
to him, you know, to do
the things you could.
You're not gonna be that
way as long as you get
some treatment for it
and, and do what, what
you know, people ask of
you to, to go through.
So, one thing that, uh,
if somebody finds himself
in that situation and
they're dealing with the
recurring thoughts and
they're dealing with the
aftermath and they're
dealing with possible
criminal or civil,
uh, litigation, uh,
little things that they
can do, uh, exercise.
Exercise is huge.
Uh, it releases
endorphins that had
gives you a feeling
of accomplishment.
It's, uh, your diet
eating a little bit
better food is a
big, helpful thing.
These are just physical
things they can do.
One thing that is
really difficult to
do is, um, or diff not
difficult to do easy
to do, but difficult
for a possible recovery
and that's alcohol.
And so often people will
look to the alcohol as
a possible solution and
numb it out, but it does
have a compounding effect
on the psychological
response to these.
Yeah.
You're just, you know,
I, again, do I think, um,
in a team environment.
And when we went through
things, did we, you know,
did we go for drinks?
Like after the riot,
did we get together
and reminisce?
Yeah, sure.
You know, after a couple
of other things that I've
been through, did we?
Yeah.
But is that the answer
or the solution?
No, it's not.
I'll tell you one of the
most interesting things
that, you know, in a,
in a post situation
after the riots in 94,
uh, we were having big
debriefings and you were
notified that on this
date, you would report
to this location, uh, for
the purpose of debriefing
after the incident and
the individual that was
there, that was directing
the debrief, you know,
had everybody sitting
in this big circle
and, you know, you're,
you're vulnerable,
you're, you know, your
feet are on the floor.
Your arms are
not crossed.
You know, he's looking
for this sort of stuff.
And we're all looking
towards this guy.
And, and he starts
saying, you know, you
know, you might feel,
uh, all these things,
you know, like, uh,
feeling complete and
that you let people down
and, and that, you know,
this was like, you might
be having nightmares
and all this stuff.
And I still remember
this one individual,
you know, she, uh, she
said, I don't know about
the rest of the people
here, but I feel great.
And, and, and, and you
start to see heads start
to nod a little bit.
And then she says, you
know, not only do I feel
great, that was like
one of the most terrific
moments in my life.
And she went on to say,
now it wasn't the fact
that it was a whole
sale, you know, attack
on everything that
you've ever hated in
your life or anything.
It was like, what was
important was in this
group situation that
she stood shoulder to
shoulder with all these
other people that were
in equally as bad of a
situation as she was,
that those people were
there and they got
through it together.
And everybody, you
know, was okay.
Right.
And that was the
again, suppression
in a normal world.
And that's where they
were fighting towards
in the beginning of
that debriefing was to
tell you should feel or
the expected to feel.
And the reaction was,
and an acceptance by
everybody there that, you
know, what that was okay.
And what a healthy way
to deal with it too.
And it was, and it was
actually a, what's the
word I want to look for?
Um, a turning point
a what's the other
one that they.
Pivot?
Yeah.
Diametrically opposed.
Oh.
No, there's a
better one in there.
I'll I'll call
I'll think of it.
When, when I haven't
been drinking, no,
just kidding, uh, that,
that, um, psychologist
said, I got to change
the way I'm approaching
this and they did.
And it was just
interesting that one
incident, this, this
was a huge learning
environment for that
psychologist, because
they were never dealing
with, you know, couple
hundred people or more
that went through these
sessions afterwards.
And you know
what, maybe a good
psychologist shouldn't
be telling a person
how they should feel.
Maybe they should be
asking the question.
And I think that
emphasizes a really good
point, which is there's
a whole slew of different
professionals out there
who are psychiatrists
or psychologists.
If they're not
speaking your language,
find somebody else.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and that's, you
know, doctor shopping
is not uncommon in
this day and age
or second opinion.
And, and like I say,
if you are in that,
you know, this, this,
this treatment doesn't
seem to be working for
me, go somewhere else,
you know, go somewhere
else and, and see
what they have to say.
I'm always a fan of
going to somebody that
might have a little
bit of experience in
the subject matter.
Right.
Okay.
I want to have somebody,
that's got context on
what I'm talking about
and that's a help, you
know, and, and there
are people like that.
There are people that,
uh, you know, Randy
Mackoff, you know, he,
he, he left the police
service, he became a
counselor, you know, or
a psycho, you know, and
that's his thing, but
he's got that grounding.
So if he's talking
to the cops, you
know, he was a cop.
I mean, there are, you
know, women who are
psychologists that were
rape victims and they
have that grounding.
And they went through
all the stages that go on
that that are a part of
such a horrible trauma.
You know, the, I mean,
what's worse being
murdered or being raped.
My God, you know, a
rape victim has to
live it every day.
You know, the
murder victim.
It's, it's it, you
know, it's horrible.
It's an awful thing,
but it's not the same.
And, and if somebody has,
has, has walked that mile
ahead of you, you know,
it's, it's a lot easier
to take information
from them, you know, it
just, I thought, and,
and just the way I am,
like, I don't, I don't
want to go and I don't
want to go and train for
something with somebody
who maybe hasn't even
done it themselves.
I would rather, I
would go and listen
to somebody who has a
bit of experience and
feel better about that.
So that covers a fair
bit on the, the after
the after really is.
Check yourself out, check
your . Surroundings, make
sure that the threats.
In the immediate.
Done.
Well, the afters in the
immediate, in the near
and then in the future.
Right.
Okay.
And the, the near in
the future, a lot of
that has to do with
how you deal with it in
the immediate, because
that can really shape
how the future looks.
You ran your mouth right
afterwards to the media.
You're talking about
how great you feel and
how, how fast was over.
When in fact video
cameras will show it
being a lot longer
and contradict you.
And now you look like
a liar, maybe just
zipper your mouth up,
say what's important
in the time and talk
to some professionals.
Yep.
And, and you know what,
even if you aren't
directly involved
and you do witness
something horrible
like that, but you now
have given a statement,
you are now in it.
And that's it.
You are like, and,
and for, let's go
back to what kind of
started this, Travis.
I said, Hey, we're
watching all this stuff
on TV and one of the
reoccurring statements
is I can't believe it.
Right.
I've never seen
anything like it.
So now those people,
who were not directly
involved, they were in
the nearby, um, are going
to be the people who
are givin' statements
perhaps later, are going
to be witnesses in court.
And that all could
have an effect or
an outcome on you.
If you were part of
the direct, if you
were at the, you
know, the epicenter
of whatever happens.
So we need to
understand that.
And, and again, even
talk, let's talk to those
people on the periphery.
If you were emotionally
affected by what you saw,
um, take advantage of
our, our medical system
and get something for it,
you know, get, get, get
the treatment you need
when you're givin' your
statement to the cops.
Tell the cop, you know,
is it normal that I, you
know, I'm feeling like
this afterwards and you
know, the measure of the
police officer will, of
course, you know, the,
and, and let's, you
know, here's on the back
of my business card is
victim's assistance and,
and, you know, through
worksafe BC and their
agreements and other
things that are out there
and available to you get
help, and it's not going
to cost you anything.
And I think that's a
really good point, asking
for that help from an
officer on the scene, is
a statement in itself.
Right.
And I mean, and, and
I really want to, at
this point too, not
just because I did it
and because my circle
of friends extends to
law enforcement, but
really they are there,
in most cases to help.
Although sometimes
you got to hurt
somebody to help them.
And, and we can't
emphasize, you know, that
it, it would be better if
that didn't happen, but
that's not all cops do.
You know, these are
highly intelligent,
dedicated, and this is
for somebody out there,
courageous people, who
are willing to leave
their homes every day
with a potential, not
coming back to it,
to do things for you,
but in the mundane, in
the day to day, they
have the information,
the skills and the
ability, you know, to
genuinely help you out
of these situations.
Hmm.
You know, I always
look at police like
any other profession,
like any other person
there is going to be
the preponderance of
the gross majority of
police officers are
people who want to
do good and are, have
high ideals and that's
why they get into it.
But there are going to be
a couple of bad apples,
and there's going to
be a couple that are.
Absolutely.
Absolutely exemplary.
But after a while of
being a police officer
and dealing with the same
things, people, human
nature, it's normal,
people stand, tend to
be developed patterns
in getting ruts, kind
of like game animals,
have game trails for a
reason, cause that's the
easy way they've learned
that's where it goes.
And after a certain
period of time, it's not
that a police officer
could be bad and they
aren't, but they just
doing their job, but
they're definitely
not out there to
do bad against you.
And there's going to
be some that are always
just absolutely striving.
And I find more and more
that they are just out
there striving, but the
media doesn't really pick
up on those ones do they?
Nope.
They're looking for the
bad examples that goes
through and you know,
you gotta to remember
absolutely everybody out
here that's listening
today has a bad day.
And so if that's the
bad day that you met
that cop on, if that
was their bad day, you
can't condemn everybody
that's out there nor
maybe even that person
that you dealt with in
uniform that day, and
a complete condemnation
from a one contact thing.
Not, not very good.
And after an incident
like this, meeting,
uh, wanting to explain
your side, you know,
that you're right.
And you just want to tell
the police officer and
you see them treating you
in a fashion that maybe
you're a suspect in that
that could be difficult
to take, or maybe they're
having a bad day and
they just automatically
put that black hat on
you and right from the
right from the beginning.
Yeah.
That can all be very
difficult for people to
understand because they
tend to depersonalize
the person in uniform,
but they're going
through the same garbage.
Yup, absolutely.
And like I say, you
know, you know, when
you're about to give a
statement and they stop
you and then they tell
you that, you know,
you're not obliged to say
anything and anything.
Shut your mouth.
Shut your mouth.
That's exactly right.
And you know, even though
you know that I never
did anything wrong.
Shut your mouth.
That's right.
That's what you know,
now this is the only
costly thing involved in
there is getting a lawyer
involved because that is
money, but that's money
well spent, you know, um,
because, shut your mouth.
I can't say
anything more.
And that's, you know,
that, that, that means
that you're being looked
at for whatever this is.
Right.
And until circumstances
clear you, you need
to prepare yourself.
I want to cooperate
with you, but at this
point I need to, you
know, have my thoughts
sort of examined.
There's nothing that
you can say right
now that you can't
better articulate.
Later on.
Tomorrow.
Right.
The next day.
Exactly.
Nothing's changing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think, yeah.
Leaving it at that.
I think so.
Okay.
Okay, Paul, thank
you very much.
This has been a
fantastic series.
We've been getting
great feedback from all
the listeners on it.
I really appreciate your
unique insight on this.
I don't think it's
unique, but it's,
you know, one that
I'm willing to talk
about and, and,
uh, I'm not right.
Well you've got a
unique perspective.
And you can speak
from your perspective.
And I appreciate that.
Thank you.
Thanks for the
opportunity Travis.