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The Honest Money Show is your guide to understanding what money really is — and why today’s system isn’t working. Hosted by Anja Dragovic, this show cuts through the noise to explore how money shapes our lives, where it’s gone wrong, and what a better future could look like. Along the way, you'll discover how Bitcoin fits into the bigger picture — not as hype, but as a serious response to a broken system. Whether you're curious, skeptical, or already down the
Speaker: Welcome to Honest Money.
I'm your host, Anya, and today's
episode is brought to you by hard block.
Anja: Hello.
Joining me today is British Hodl.
British Hodl is an ex gold equities
and real estate investor, and he's
been creating whole coins since 2020.
2020. Yes, that sounds about right.
Welcome to Honest Money.
HODL: Thank you so much.
Thanks for having me.
Anja: I was just checking if my microphone
is on, but it seems all to be good.
So to kick off, have you noticed, like,
has the, um, creation of Whole Coin
has sped up or slowed down since 2020?
HODL: I, I think it, it had
a lift and then since 2024,
I would say it's slowed down.
Anja: Yeah.
It's been, it's been a funny, funny year.
What do you think of last year?
Obviously a lot of people.
HODL: Yeah, I think it's, uh, last year
was a test of, of whether people actually
had their own conviction or whether
they were borrowing people's conviction.
I think that was the test last year.
This happens in every asset.
By the way.
It's not, not unique to,
not unique to Bitcoin.
Uh, Bitcoin's.
The more volatile the asset, the more
your conviction gets tested and the
more you demonstrate whether your
conviction, again, is borrowed or.
Actually internal.
And so I, I would say that a lot
of people, uh, got exposed for
borrowing conviction last year.
Anja: Right.
That's interesting.
Um, I'm so surrounded by like
hardcore Bitcoiners and yeah,
I've not really felt that maybe.
On Twitter a bit, but yeah, I'm, I'm even
not getting the, a lot of the posts that
I used to when I first joined Twitter.
I'm just, I feel like the algorithm
is very strange at the moment.
I'm not even getting a lot of my,
the people that I'm following,
seeing what they're saying.
So I feel like the sentiment.
Is not something that I'm
tracking all that well.
Um, well then
HODL: just to let you know
then from the outside that
the sentiment's in the toilet.
So that's where the sentiment
is right now to summarize it.
Anja: Thank you.
Thank you.
Like I, I. I tend to lean into humor
during times like this, and I don't
know if you've seen, there was, there
was a short social media clip Burge
from like a movie and someone put
like superimposed captions on top of
like different scenes and it's like
a bunch of kids singing off Key.
And then the first kids like singing
and it, it says like s and p 500.
Up this much and then dah, dah, dah,
and then goes like up 20, 72% and
it's like just rolling the eyes.
And then Bitcoin comes in at minus five,
singing like the most off key, um, until
the, I guess the teacher, the music
teacher loses her mind and finally finds
the one kid who's got perfect pitch,
and that happens to be silver, amazing.
Up hundred and 75%.
So it was just one of the funniest
social media clips that made me laugh,
laugh, because it was so spot on.
HODL: Yeah, I'm, uh, I'm very
happy for my gold and silver
fans, uh, for the last six months.
We'll see what, what the
next six months holds.
Certainly for the last six months,
they're, they're celebrating justly.
Based on price action.
Yeah.
Anja: Yeah.
One of the things that I've learned
listening to your channel, I found
it really interesting and that's,
and I didn't know that apparently
the culture within the commodities,
like the metal, commodities, gold and
silver, tends to be very doom and gloom.
Is that, is like, I'm not,
again, sentiment check is, is
that really like how they are?
Do they really think like expecting
the global markets to melt?
HODL: I would actually argue that's
the core sentiment most of what I
feel when it comes to Bitcoin as well.
Bitcoin has a little bit more of a
positive outlook on the future, but I
would say that most, most Bitcoiners
lean towards the idea of taking down the
system and et cetera, et cetera, and.
The reality is, is that most
people wouldn't know what to
do if the system collapsed.
Um, even if they're holding
Bitcoin or gold or silver.
But yeah, gold and silver investors, it's
one of the things that kind of took me
away from that industry was just kind
of like the energy of the people that
were, were in the space was, was just,
I, it's not something that I relate to
or what I was kind of brought up with.
So, um, yeah, I like to call
them doom and gloom boomers.
They don't have to be boomers,
but they're all doom and gloomers.
Anja: Yeah, doom and Gloomers.
But it's interesting that you bring
that up because obviously recently Danny
interviewed Sailor and that has been an
interesting, fantastic interview by the
HODL: way.
Fantastic interview.
Anja: It really was, and I'm
still following the comments on,
on the, like the, what Bitcoin
did on that particular thing.
It's interesting what people are saying.
Um, they're basically saying, sailor
told us, all of us off via Danny.
Um, but yeah, I think he shares
a lot of the same sentiment.
He was, you know, commenting about the
toxicity of the community and yeah.
What, what did you think
overall, um, of that interview?
HODL: I thought it was a fan.
I messaged Danny and I told
him I think he did a fantastic
job, um, with the interview.
The point of an interviewer is to
push the boundaries, especially
on someone like Michael Saylor.
Michael's one of the smartest people
I've ever met in my life, um, and
probably the most fastest thinking
person I've ever met in my life.
But, you know, people
get intimidated by that.
And so for Danny to, and I think
they were at at times, they were
kind of speaking past each other.
But nonetheless, I think it was
extremely important and it is
extremely important for a podcaster
to push the boundaries on someone.
And so, and I think that's what Danny
did and he handled the criticism
really well, and, and, and I think
it was overall a really good.
It certainly gave anyone who understands
how to, how to listen to, like
tradify markets, an understanding
of how Sailor is looking at things.
What kind of, you know, what I took
away from, from, from that was just
how Michael Sailor is looking at the
landscape based on what he knows.
Remember Bitcoin as are used to.
With Bitcoin.
Bitcoin is, it used to being
spoken to very, very directly about
points, like factual points, right?
That's what beauty of Bitcoin is.
Tradify doesn't talk like that because
there might be regulations, there
might be things that are coming.
You're under NDA, you're, you know,
you're, you're, you're discussing things
that can't be discussed in public, so
then you have to be like, someone like me.
I'm.
I can see through what Sailor
is saying and try and figure out
like, what does this actually mean?
Why is he saying certain things?
And so then, you know, this is how
uh, when BlackRock was talking about
Bitcoin, I knew they were gonna come
into the game like it was because I was
listening to listening past the words.
And I think Bitcoiners
need to get better at that.
Certainly that's what I've tried
to do with my YouTube channel.
Like, okay, this is what was said.
But this is what it actually means.
And if this is what it means,
then this is what should happen.
And, um, and that's what I, I think,
I think, I think Danny did a fantastic
job overall, and I, and I think
Michael Sailor handled it really well.
I, I think Michael Saylor, you know,
certainly let people like me know
kind of what the landscape is and
how things are working and how we
should be, uh, thinking about treasury
companies and things like that.
So I, I, I think overall it was
a fantastic, fantastic interview.
Anja: Yeah, I, I thought so as well.
I didn't actually think at the time when
Danny was asking him the first question
that kind of seemed to trigger Sailor
that, um, he was expecting that reaction.
It almost, and I think he said in a
different interview perhaps with Mark
Moss, that, um, that basically he had
some difficult questions lined up for
him, but he didn't quite get to those,
um, which I thought was interesting.
HODL: So that's, that's
how, but that's how it goes.
Right?
You never know which one, you
never know what's gonna, which
way the conversation's gonna go.
Yeah.
I, I think he did a fantastic
job and I think Michael answered
all the questions fantastically.
I think Michael's, you know,
real intention there was to
kind, kind of try and reframe
how everyone's looking at things.
Certainly for me, he, he, he did
a, he did a great job at that.
So I think overall it
was, it was pretty good.
Anja: What was your main takeaway?
Like what do you think was Sailor's
main message from that interview?
HODL: I think the main point was, you
know, to, from a simplistic point of view,
is that every company's gonna be buying
Bitcoin, so this is not a unique thing.
We should be pissed off at the
companies that are not buying Bitcoin
because they're not doing their best.
The increased shareholder value
through this scarce asset.
And when you're trying to judge,
uh, a Bitcoin treasury company based
on its price performance, you're
missing half of the story because
what happens when every company has
some Bitcoin on the balance sheet.
Every company is gonna be trading
at a percentage above or below.
Its Bitcoin, MNF, and that's
just how this is gonna go.
This is the birth of a new industry.
And so what's going on right
now is that the conversation has
been overtaken by bad traders.
Um, and, and that really
needs to be reframed because
bad traders do not dictate.
What an industry is doing.
And so we want people, we want companies
to buy as much Bitcoin as possible, and
that's what we should be focused on.
And the fact that people are getting into
these companies at seven times multiple,
and then that company is compressing down
to a one times multiple in a mid-cycle
bear market is, is completely normal.
But we should not be dictating,
you know, the, the value of
adding Bitcoin to a balance sheet.
Based on a bad trade.
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Anja: Yeah.
And obviously you've spent, you
know, many years in investing.
What would you say is the most
underrated investing skill?
HODL: It's, it's the, I have three
rules to Bitcoin and it's the, the
most underrated one is step number
two, which is shut the fuck up.
That's, that's the hardest thing to do
because if you look at, what's happened
here is people bought their Bitcoin
and then they sold their Bitcoin to
put it into a company with a seven
times multiple to its, so you basically
exchanged one Bitcoin for 0.21 Bitcoin.
And now you're pissed off that it's
taking a little bit of time for
that company to build up from your
0.21 Bitcoin to your one Bitcoin.
But that was the trade that you made.
So you didn't understand
what was going on.
Um, and you made that trade
simply based on price action and
what was going on in the moment.
And now you've gotta sit there.
Now you've got, now you're in the
shut the fuck up part, the part
of the, the trade, so that's that.
That's the hard, that's
always the hardest part.
People just don't know.
You know how to shut down that activity
bias that we're all that we all have,
and especially, I mean, it's gonna
get worse because you know, I'm sure
you've seen that the US market's
trying to go to 24 hours trading.
When that happens, this is only gonna
get worse because everything's gonna
be open all day around the world.
So you're gonna wake up and you're
gonna be thinking about what's
going on with the price action.
You're gonna go to bed and
you're thinking about what's
going on with the price action.
So speculation, volatility, and
everything else is only gonna go up here.
Um, so, you know, that's,
that's really the skill.
The skill is the shut the fuck up part.
Anja: Yeah on that.
I'm glad you brought that up.
Uh, sorry.
Not the shut the fuck up part
about the 24 trading part.
I'm glad you brought it up because one
of the questions I have is, you know,
Bitcoin is obviously very volatile and the
fact that it's trading 24 7, it's always
like the first asset to move or react
to something, especially on the weekend.
If everything EL else opens
up on the weekend, would that
reduce Bitcoin's volatility?
No, sorry, not, I didn't word that the
best, but like, will it make it less
volatile because there'll be other
assets that people will be able to trade?
HODL: Yeah, I, I think at that point,
the advantage that Bitcoin has for
being the first mover, liquidity
kind of starts going away, right.
Um, which.
Is an advantage and a disadvantage.
You kind of want that to happen because
then, you know, the, the, the, the Sunday
dumps that you're seeing on Bitcoin
kind of go away because anything, the
actual asset that you want to dump can
just dump rather than Bitcoin dumping.
So volatility starts to come down
as the asset matures, and that's,
that's a normal, that's a normal
maturation cycle for an asset.
Anja: Yeah.
Um, but one question I've been asking a
lot of my guests this year that I find
very interesting, and I'm curious to
ask you as well, is what is your first
memory of money that you had as a child?
HODL: I, oh, that's a
really good question.
Um, I'm trying to think back as
far as, again, I've got memories
coming up, but I'm trying to see
if there's any archives further
Speaker 3: back.
HODL: Yeah.
Go through the archives a little bit.
Um.
I would say that I remember an
argument going on about money.
That's probably my first, first
memory was an argument about money.
Anja: That makes more sense
about your role, number two.
HODL: Yeah.
Look, you know, to me, to me, money has
always been about building a moat, right?
It's, it success was about distance.
It wasn't about.
Anything else like Right.
You know, I like nice things, but it,
it's really more about building a moat
and a distance between me and whatever
the o whatever the thing with no money is.
Right.
Which, which, uh, you know, uh, that's
kind of the arguments, the, the negative
emotions that everything else that
comes with not having enough money.
So, yeah, that, that's, I guess,
you know, that's, uh, that's
what it's always been for me.
It's about how far can you get and
then you get to a point, um, I don't
even know if I'm far enough yet.
That's what's interesting.
Right.
I don't know if you are far enough,
because if it's just an emotion,
then you're trying to plug that,
plug that gap and build that moat.
And the question is.
You know, how, how far
do you go with that moat?
How big do you want the moat to be?
And the bigger the moat
is, the safer you feel.
So you just keep going.
Anja: Yeah, I was just gonna say the, I
thought you were gonna say the bigger, the
moat, mo mote, bigger mote mo problems.
I, I dunno, I just thought of
Biggie Smalls for a second.
Yeah.
But that makes a lot of sense.
Um, I can certainly
relate to that, you know?
My background as well coming from,
you know, an underdeveloped country
and money being very scarce.
You talking about Australia?
No, no.
I was born in Croatia and you know.
Okay.
Yeah.
Well Australia kind of seems to be.
Trending towards, towards a funny
financial path where, you know,
the impression I had of the country
first coming here in the first, you
know, few decades that I spent here,
it was very, very stable country.
Whereas like that stable
realization is just seeming
to kind of crack a little bit.
Like the economy's not great,
the cost of living is not great.
Um, you know, people even earning
high income are having housing stress.
So it's interesting times here.
Um, I don't know, like do
you go back to the UK at all?
Yeah.
These days?
Yeah.
My,
HODL: my, yeah, my parents were in the uk.
Brothers in the uk friends are in the uk.
Yeah.
I go back probably three
or four times a year.
Anja: Yeah.
Is it kind of a similar situation there?
HODL: Yes.
Um, except, you know, I'm from
London, so the UK is really kind
of like London Plus, uh, to me.
So, um, in London, the, you know, there's
still things moving and shaking that we've
got our issues like anywhere else in the
world, but there's still kind of, it feels
like there's things moving and shaking
depending on which industry you're in.
Anja: Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
No, that makes sense.
Um, but yeah, so what
are the other two rules?
Um, you mentioned one.
HODL: Yeah.
Well, the first rule is you buy Bitcoin.
The second rule is you shut the fuck up.
And then the third rule is you
get fabulously wealthy, but you
gotta shut the fuck up to get
to the fabulously wealthy part.
Anja: Yeah.
And like, uh, I know you're very
passionate about creating whole coins.
Do you think your message is
going to change soon in terms
of what the aspirational goal
for the Bitcoin should be like?
Is, is aspiring to get a whole coin
still a reality for many people?
Or are we looking at 0.1?
Like what's the, what's the go?
My,
HODL: my, my messaging
is not gonna change.
I actually went through this after
we crossed a hundred thousand, so.
Technically speaking, based on the
data that I can see, after a hundred
thousand dollars, about 0.4, 0.45% of
the world can now get to one Bitcoin.
So I definitely went through
this discovery process of like,
do I now change the message?
Do I, what do I do with this?
And I had to kind of go back to why I got
involved in even creating any content.
Um, and, and I decided that
my message won't change.
I think the one Bitcoin
should be the North Star.
I think, uh, my reasoning around
that, um, is still relevant.
I, I think if you don't have enough,
I'm very, very sensitive to the happy
hippie nature of Bitcoin, which is
like, you know, it's kind of been taken
over from a content or, uh, you know,
conference or whatever space by people
that like to hug trees for some reason.
And the reality is it's a monetary
network, which means you have to own
enough of the network to be relevant
if you don't own enough of the network.
I don't care how many empanada stand
makers you teach to use Bitcoin
to sell their fucking empanadas,
it's not gonna matter for you, your
family, your bloodline, or anyone.
So you have to have a certain amount
of Bitcoin, and I think that number
should always be, get to one Bitcoin.
And whether you get there
or not is totally up to you.
Depends how much you
care about your future.
Depends how much you care about
your bloodline, depends how much
you care about, you know who comes
after you and who carries your
last name if you care at all.
I know many people that don't.
So it just depends on what you want.
But my message will always
be, get to one Bitcoin.
It's never gonna change.
And that also, I understand that,
that over the arc of time, it
makes me more and more irrelevant.
And that's okay because that's what
that, that, that is the beauty of time.
Time does pass.
And it's also the beauty of Bitcoin.
It is actually scarce, therefore
the timestamps that happen along,
along its path should also be scarce.
So I want my message to stay
the same, and it will be a
timestamp along Bitcoin's history.
And the people that heard the message
got to one, Bitcoin will be great.
And the ones that heard the message
thought it was a joke will suffer.
And that's exactly what they should do.
Anja: Hmm.
So paint an aspirational picture for me.
What does one Bitcoin, what
could that mean for someone?
HODL: So I, I think Bitcoin
is going to many millions of
dollars, US dollars per coin.
And I think.
That at one Bitcoin, you are now
probably in a group of 40 to 50,000
people in the world, uh, over time.
And I think that, uh, any financial
institution, uh, in the future
will be chasing your business.
Um, I think you will have all the services
that are currently available to high net
worth individuals, uh, available to you.
And I think you'll be able to, to build a,
again, build a moat around yourself that
will protect you, protect your bloodline,
protect everything that you are, that
you stand for, and you know you will have
the ability to assimilate and to, uh,
put into the world what your ideas are.
If you're not at one Bitcoin, you
will have to get together with
people who hopefully agree with you.
Uh, but more likely you'll be
throwing your support behind
people who have enough Bitcoin.
Uh, and that will be, that'll be the,
that'll be your choice, you know,
to, to whether to do that or not.
But you are definitely not
gonna be one of the decision
makers, um, in this future world.
Anja: Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
So for those who may have a Bitcoin
or two or three, is, is the most
important thing holding onto that
Bitcoin for like an X amount of time?
Like what is your advice
there forever, Trevor?
HODL: Forever.
Anja: Oh, forever.
Forever.
HODL: Laura forever.
Forever.
That's a, it's, it's, it amazes me
when I hear Bitcoiners talking about,
you know, if you need some, if you
need some cash, just sell the Bitcoin.
It's like, what was the point of
telling every, telling people to get,
to get to a certain amount of Bitcoin.
If the goal, if, if the message
now transitions to let's just sell
it, like it doesn't make any sense
to me, you gotta hold it forever.
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HODL: Imagine if people that
held Manhattan, or let's say
Sydney land said, you know what,
I'm just gonna sell the land.
Right.
They wouldn't be the wealthiest
people in Australia right now.
So, um, your goal is to own as much
of the finite land as possible,
and then to hold it forever.
Anja: Yeah.
So how do people then
live off their Bitcoin?
HODL: There's many different
ways to do it, right?
You can, right now, you can
lend against your Bitcoin.
Uh, you can, you know, right
now I can borrow against.
Things like ibit at Central Bank
rates, you know, and that's the
beautiful thing of, of the tradify
world kind of joining, uh, Bitcoin.
It's like I can go to private banks
in Australia, in Switzerland and
Singapore, anywhere, and borrow against
my ibit, um, at Central Bank rates.
So you could do that.
That's one way to do it.
Another way to do it is to use income
funds that, that are out there,
like Michael Sailors, STRC, right.
So there's, there's ways that you
can now start to do that, but I
still don't think it's time yet.
I don't think that market is matured.
It's still maturing.
So if right now you should either
have a business or have a job.
Uh, and that's how you, that's how you,
that's how you quote unquote survive until
that economy and that world is built out,
which it is being built out at this point.
Anja: Yeah.
I'm in my accumulation phase and I hope
to stay there for as long as I can.
Um, and then, yeah, but I definitely
have an interest in these products.
I just don't, I, I'm just not there yet in
my journey to even start considering them.
But I do see that, you know,
they're important to understand.
But what I heard you say on one of your,
um, podcast episodes is that one of the
things you are really passionate about
is bridging the gap between trad fi
and Bitcoin, which is also one of the
reasons that I started this podcast.
In fact, a few people of the
interviewed are kind of like,
have their foot in both worlds.
But, um, just on that, like why, why
do you think that is so important?
HODL: Well, because there's two parts to,
to, to, to this idea of money right there,
there's, there's money and then there's
currency and money has been confused.
As currency, like US dollars, Australian
dollars, pounds is not technically money.
That's a currency.
And how it works is you have money,
which is your real estate, your
equities, your gold, your Bitcoin,
and then at some point you convert
that real money into currency to then
activate that currency in the economy.
However you wanna do that.
In that process, in that
conversion process, there's
something called credit markets.
And that credit mar, it's very
important to understand how to
use that credit market so that you
never need to sell the actual money.
That's how wealthy people stay wealthy.
So when Bitcoiners wanna say, no,
I can just spend my Bitcoin right.
You're an idiot because that's never how
long-term wealth has ever been created.
There is a process of using the credit
markets to convert some of that money
into currency that then, then can be used.
And so that's the Tradify world.
That's why Tradify is here, because
they see this process going on
and they know that Bitcoin's
gonna be a great way to use.
To, to to, to put the credit
markets on top of the Bitcoin to
then expand the credit markets.
That's why they're here.
And, and your job is, should be to figure
out how to, how to use those markets.
Anja: Yeah, I do have a confession.
I do spend a little bit, but that
is only because I make I rational
economic decisions to hopefully
make Bitcoin the medium of exchange.
I dunno.
HODL: Yeah, I mean, I think again, hall,
I think that's a hallucination
in the Bitcoin space.
It's one of the things that,
you know, I've been, uh, I've
been criticized for as well.
I, I think that, you know, I call
it the circle jerk economy of,
uh, of, of, of, you know, everyone
trying to spend their Bitcoin.
It's like, you know, and then
people come back and go, oh,
but you can spend and replace.
So I'm like, well, you're an even
bigger moron because in most of
these Western countries, you've
got a capital gains liability.
So you can spend your Bitcoin, but unless
you are committing tax fraud, you have to
pay a tax on whatever Bitcoin you spent.
So why didn't you just spend the
fucking dollars to start with?
Anja: Great point.
But in Australia, we do have like up
to $10,000 for personal use and you
have to kind of spend it, you know,
if you've acquired it, you have to
spend it win, win a certain timeframe.
You can't like, wait for,
see, I, I want Bitcoiners
HODL: that are, that are, that wanna
spend more than $10,000 for personal use.
Anja: No, I, I I've not spent that much.
It is just like when, when there's
bitcoin events and things like that.
Um, I do like to spend a little bit, but
I, I appreciate your perspective and I
think it's funny, um, for calling it out.
Have you had any other
criticisms in what you do?
'cause I, like, I do appreciate criticize
HODL: every day.
I get criticized every
day for everything I say.
There's a criticism.
I've been in this now for four
years, and if I didn't have the
thick skin that I do have, I would've
probably been depressed, uh, by now.
Like it's just, it is what it is.
Like people have, I got
criticized for saying BlackRock
was absolutely coming into it.
When they filed the ETF application, I
got called a moron for a year until the
ETF went through because like the fact
that BlackRock filed that application
told you it was happening, but.
Bitcoiners didn't see that because
they needed to see the actual result.
But that's never how
Tradify signaling works.
Speaker 3: No.
That
HODL: so I've been, I've been
criticized for everything, so yeah.
What You can go down the laundry list.
Everything I ever talk about,
I get criticized for whatever
it, every single thing.
Okay.
Anja: I'm at, I'm at that stage
in my podcasting journey where the
criticism is still very like scarce.
Like, there're not, there's not that
many, but yeah, I'm not, I'm not sure
my skin is what you getting criticize.
Um, mostly the criticisms just come from.
Like trolls, just, you know,
someone seeing a YouTube show and
saying, Bitcoin's going to zero.
And it's like, okay.
Like, things like that.
It's not really criticizing
me directly, but
HODL: That's on.
You're on like, uh, you're on, you're on
uh, baby trolls right now, just baby T.
Yeah.
Anja: Uh, I got criticized
the by the BSV guys.
Um, they came after me.
I have been criticized on LinkedIn by
tried fi and that was very interesting
because when I first started talking
about Bitcoin and just writing some
posts about it, um, it really seems to
trigger a lot of trad fire professionals,
which I found very interesting.
Um, wait, yeah, like some, there's
HODL: people using LinkedIn still.
That's still a thing.
Yes.
Still, I don't even know.
Anja: Yeah, no, there was like
some very like high positions
like CEOs and quants and,
HODL: well, everyone, the fucking
CEO now everyone's a CEO of their
own $40,000 a year business.
Like you never know who
the, who's the CEO anymore.
It's like, you know, I don't.
Yeah, I don't take anyone
seriously on the internet.
It doesn't matter to me.
It just, it's the internet.
You know, I, I, my favorite are the,
like, I had trolls coming after me.
For like everything my past.
They dig up every they do,
and I keep telling them.
I'm like, I was DMing one of 'em.
I was like, you keep firing the same
bullets, like, and they keep bouncing
off and you're not learning your lesson.
Like, let me teach you how to do this.
If you want to actually
try and make, take a shot.
You need to use, you need to load
a different bullet in the chamber.
Like, stop saying the same thing.
Go find something else.
And of course they can't
find anything else.
Anja: Pick a different weapon.
HODL: There's nothing.
Yeah.
So they, but they, so they keep
firing the same thing and it's like,
okay, well this just doesn't work.
And of course, you know, people that
are rational, logical, high net worth.
The target audience that I'm trying to
speak to, the more they listen to what I'm
saying, the more it makes sense to them
because they're actually adults and then
they come into my vortex and that's all.
That's all I'm looking for.
I'm looking for people that actually,
you know, who my message is for,
to come into the vortex and get
to enough Bitcoin for themselves.
Speaker 3: Hmm.
Anja: You're very efficient.
HODL: I'm very efficient,
Anja: yes.
Like you answer very succinctly,
and we've kind of moved through
my questions very quickly.
I've,
HODL: I've done this, I've done this,
uh, I've done this a couple times,
Anja: but you know, some
people just like really.
Elaborate things, you know and tell long.
I think,
HODL: I think you know, a lot, a couple of
people, a couple of podcasters have said
that to me, and I think it comes down to
I'm very, I, I am really not interested
in having a profile on the internet.
Like my, my decision to become British
Hollow and to talk about this and
put myself out there was because I
realized that people, like my parents
were about to get completely fucked.
Like they've spent 35 years
building a property portfolio.
That property portfolio
is about to be rugged.
'cause you can't just keep
compounding real estate at 15% a
year without productivity in the
economy going up and wages going up.
It's not possible.
It's not feasibly possible.
And then Tradify saw Bitcoin was like,
wait a second, we can just print as
much money as we want, shove it into
this asset and there's no one jumping
off a building, no one being homeless,
no social consequences at all of this.
So I kind of saw, okay, this is
the path that's gonna go down.
And so, you know, I have a very,
everything I'm saying, I crystal clear,
know exactly who I'm talking to and
what message I wanna put out there.
Um, you know, and I, and I try
and avoid all the distractions.
So I guess it will take
that as a efficiency.
Anja: Hmm.
And I did hear you say that you feel like
you don't fully fit into the Tri, tri by
World, and you also don't fully fit, like,
you don't feel like a full on Bitcoin.
Uh, what do you feel like?
HODL: I feel like myself, I don't know.
I don't, I don't really try
and fit in like wherever.
If I see a good idea, I'm
gonna say it's a good idea.
If I think it's a bad idea
and then it turns out to be a
good idea, I say I was wrong.
And it was a, it was actually a good idea.
So.
Yeah, I don't, um, I don't try and fit in.
I just try and take what makes
logical sense, which way the world is
gonna go and, and try and say that.
And then, of course, people with, uh,
delusional thoughts about how the world's
really gonna work hate that because it's,
you know, it's like telling them that
they're not gonna get their favorite toy
at Christmas, so they lose their minds.
It's just, it's, it's, it's part
of, part of the game, I guess.
I, I don't really try, I don't really
feel like That's very interesting.
Anja: I'm very curious to know
what, what's something about Bitcoin
did you say in the past that you
turned out to be wrong about?
HODL: Let, give perfect example.
This was, and it is gonna be crazy,
so I bought MSTR on the very first
trading day after they announced
the Bitcoin strategy in 2020.
The very first trading day I saw it and
I thought, this is gonna be trad FI's way
to get Bitcoin exposure because there's
no ETFs, there's nothing so fantastic.
You would say fantastic.
Right?
I was right on that.
The ETF came out, the ibit ETF came
out and as it was coming out I was
like, I don't know if MSTR still
has the same value proposition that
I saw when I, um, when I bought it.
So when the ETF came out, I downsized my
position in MSTR and converted it to ibit.
I was right for about three weeks
and then I was aggressively wrong
for three months and I had to sit
there and go, why the hell was I,
what, what am I not seeing here?
Right?
And then I realized that MST R'S value
proposition was not, was never an an ETF.
It was a speculative platform built
on top of Bitcoin's volatility.
And then once I understood that,
I had to regain my position.
And I'm still probably thousands and
thousands of shares short compared
to what I, what I had before.
But you know, we're doing all right.
Anja: I love that story.
I love that story.
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Anja: So,
HODL: so,
Anja: and I went
HODL: through this in public, by the way.
I had a video come out Yeah.
Telling people I'm selling
my MT, I'm selling it.
And then months later, I had a video
coming out where I'm buying back my
MSTR. This is why I'm buying it back,
and this is what I was wrong on.
So this has been out like this
is, you can see this transition
through my YouTube journey.
Anja: Yeah.
Yeah.
That's like, it takes a lot of courage.
Um, I find like to just put yourself
out there like, like, I don't know.
I, I think it does,
HODL: it takes a lot of courage.
Anja: Mm-hmm.
I think so.
HODL: Maybe, so, maybe
that's what, I don't know.
Maybe it is, maybe it is courageous.
Yeah.
I dunno.
Anja: Yeah.
I mean, if, if you're not, I'm
HODL: addicted to being,
I'm addicted to being Right.
I'm, I'm absolutely utterly
addicted to being Right.
Anja: But are you though, because you,
you happen to, you know, admit that
you were very wrong with this, so.
HODL: Absolutely.
Anja: I don't,
HODL: and nobody understands how
much I called myself a dickhead
for being wrong about that.
I am absolutely, utterly
addicted to being right.
And I felt more stupid than
anyone could make me feel in my
own head because I was wrong.
Anja: Yeah.
But explain to me why I bit,
why not buy Bitcoin directly?
HODL: Well, there's many
different reasons for that.
Number one, you may have, firstly,
both are options, right there is
the self custody option, then there
is the ibit option number one.
It will always be cheaper to use
tra FI's tools on ibit because
the rails are already built.
The insurance policy's already there.
The rail's already built you.
You'll be able to plug into the Tradify
infrastructure without any issues,
so it's always gonna be cheaper.
If you want to ever get into borrowing
against your Bitcoin, doing any
of the sort of the Tradify stuff,
it's always gonna be cheaper to
use ibit than to use SPOT Bitcoin.
Now, saying that further than
that, you might have a retirement
account where you cannot buy.
Spot Bitcoin.
You just cannot do it based on the
terms of your retirement account,
in which case Ibit is a solution.
You may not give a shit about the
quote unquote revolution of Bitcoin,
and what you want is price exposure,
and that's what most, most Bitcoiners
kind of miss majority of the
world doesn't want the revolution.
They want the price exposure.
And so Ibit becomes an
easy way to do that.
You now no longer need to sell
your house, sell your equity, sell
whatever, move it over, get a Coinbase
account, buy the Coinbase account.
Do you know 17 hours of research order
your order, your cold storage wallet?
Then that thing has a leak of data,
so I need to order another one.
I need to get that.
You need to understand how, you know,
how, how, how your address works.
You then need to go into your exchange.
You then need to, now, with
KYC, you gotta tell 'em who's.
Cold storage is, you gotta
type the address into it.
It's now gonna take a, now gonna take
10 minutes of you sitting there going,
did I just fuck this up and I've lost
all my Bitcoin and it's now gonna
then show up on your cold storage.
Now you've gotta figure
out your cold storage.
You now gotta worry about
someone bashing you over the head
and taking your cold storage.
You've gotta worry about multisig.
You've gotta do this,
that and the other, or.
Just open up your broker account,
type in IB and click buy.
That's the friction that's
been erased with ib.
Anja: Yeah, yeah.
Obviously, like full disclosure, I am
the Revolution Bitcoin person, but I
do see that someone who doesn't have,
there should be another, another choice
that, you know, like obviously there's
regulatory restrictions or whatever.
You can't put your Bitcoin, I
don't know, for retirement account.
You know, it, it makes sense to get ibit.
Um, but yeah, it's, it's, I think it makes
HODL: sense for, I think it makes
sense for anyone who's in Bitcoin
to have some cold storage Bitcoin.
And so the way that I've started telling
people now is assign a probability on
the world falling apart right within
the next decade, and then whatever
that probability is, have that in
cold storage now your run bag is safe.
And the rest of it maybe figure out how
to use some of these tried five options.
Anja: So what would that be?
What might that be like percentage wise?
Say someone's got a whole coin, like
what have you worked that through?
Is that individualized?
HODL: Depends it, it's individual, right?
It depends on what you think
or what, what percentage chance
there is for the US falling apart.
In the next decade, what do you, I
mean, and by the way, it's not the US
because society, society might fall
apart, but the US financial markets,
the US dollar is not gonna fall apart.
So you gotta assign a probability to that.
I think that's sub 10%
for the next decade.
I think it's probably sub
5% for the next decade.
Right.
So it depends on, on how you do that.
Plus it depends on how you wanna protect
your assets, how you want to do, you know,
there's so many different conversations
that are individual conversations
that determine how you allocate your.
Your, your Bitcoin,
Anja: but on that world falling, falling
apart scenario, because there's obviously
people like Ray Dalio who, you know,
talks about the US being a, at um,
being, I guess at risk of losing the
dollar as the world reserve currency.
Then you have Larry Fink saying
the same in the investor letter to
BlackRock investors and shareholders
in 2025, I think it was last year.
So.
You know when you have kind of like these
big players and hedge fund ma hedge fund
managers saying these things, doesn't
that seem like for a lot of people, again,
gold and silver going up, that that is a
real poss not well to what extent as well?
It might not be like a full
fall apart, but it could be.
I partial if the US
Speaker 3: substantial
HODL: fall apart, if the US
Speaker 3: loses.
HODL: No, but if the US loses the
US dollar as a reserve currency,
that doesn't mean immediately that
the US dollar falls apart, right?
Like it, none of this happens immediately.
So you've gotta be smart,
you gotta evaluate.
It's just you, you're val.
You're managing money, right?
You're managing money, right?
So there's going to be some work
involved and some thinking involved.
Um, and of course if you don't
want to do that, then there's
always the option of popping.
The, the crazy part is, is like no one's
saying don't have spot Bitcoin, right?
If, if that's how you feel
the most comfortable, that's
how you should have it.
And Bitcoin's beautiful because
it's the first time in human history
where you can actually own the
spot asset at the same price as a
multimillionaire or Michael Saylor.
Or Larry Fink, we can all own the
asset at the exact same price.
So absolutely spot Bitcoin
is absolutely an option.
Everyone should, uh, should consider it.
Uh, but again, it depends
on your personal situation.
Anja: I think I heard most of that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Well that's given me a lot to think about.
Um.
Yeah, I, I guess I haven't played
out all those doomsday scenarios, nor
do I really want to, to be honest.
Like just, I just wanna stack
SATs in peace and, you know,
not spend too much time about
thinking about the world melting.
But for whatever reason,
it does sometimes feel.
That it's almost like been nearly like
a hundred years since there's been like
a major, major, major, major crash.
Like 2008 was bad.
But I don't know, like it just,
you just pattern wise, it feels
like maybe it's gonna happen.
In the next decade.
HODL: Well, 2008 was
really the crash, right?
Like, and that type of credit
market freeze happens once
every 80 years on average.
That was funnily enough, that was
my first ever recession in business.
So when people tell me we're in
a recession, it's kind of a joke
to me now because it's like,
you know, 2008 was a recession.
Everything we're seeing now is, is nothing
compared to, compared to what that was.
Yeah, I mean, I, I don't think
we're gonna see one of those.
I, I, I just don't.
Anja: Yeah.
See that's interesting.
Australia, like, again, I wasn't involved
in, in personal finance or finance
very much at the time, but, you know,
hearing from people, family and friends
at the time, we didn't seem to get.
That affected by it.
Like yes, a lot of mortgages defaulted.
Um, and some people had to sell
their homes, um, before they actually
default on a mortgage, I should say.
Um, and, and you know, most, for
the most part, people recovered
fair fairly well, but even know why.
It feels like
HODL: why, you know why?
Right.
They recovered because
they turned on the money.
Printers.
That's it.
Anja: In Australia, don't.
Yeah, I, I, I don't know off the top
of my head what happened in Australia.
There was like obviously a massive
in injection of, of money into the
economy during COVID, but I wasn't
really paying attention to how,
what, what was happening around 2008.
I just don't remember, like
what I'm trying to say.
Like the economy didn't feel as bad
back then than it does now in Australia.
It feels worse now.
A lot of people feel like we're
in a recession even though the
GDP P is not saying that we are.
HODL: Yeah, I mean, you know, there's,
there's many different reasons for what
you're feeling right now, but it certain
certainly is completely different to 2008.
Anja: Yeah.
Okay.
Well thank you so much for your time.
I would love for you to share any kind of
final thoughts with my audience and maybe
like, obviously I'll drop in the note
section in terms of how they can find you.
Um, but do you have anything?
Any last words?
HODL: Step number one, you buy Bitcoin.
Step number two, shut the fuck up.
And step number three, you
get fabulously wealthy.
Anja: There we have it.
Thanks so much.
HODL: My pleasure.
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