Why TV-Style Interventions Fail, and What Actually Helps w/ Doyen Consulting

Everything you've seen about interventions on TV — the circle of chairs, the letters, the ultimatums — mostly doesn't work.

Borzou and Amanda sit down with Chelsea Brigham and Jennifer Tarzia of Doyen Consulting, who work with families navigating addiction and mental health crises. Their take: addiction doesn't happen in a vacuum — it operates on the entire family system, and treating only the person with the problem misses the point.

Topics Covered

• Why "they entered treatment" is the wrong definition of a successful intervention
• Compliance vs. internal motivation — and why forced treatment rarely sticks
• How families slowly normalize the problem ("I don't even know how we got here")
• Boundaries as internal limits, not external rules — and why you should never set one you can't hold
• The workplace version: managing a talented employee with a substance problem
• What people at their most vulnerable teach you about marketing: connection and the shared human condition
• Entry points to help — for the person struggling and the family watching it happen

Guests

Chelsea Brigham, Director of Operations, and Jennifer Tarzia, Founder — Doyen Consulting
Website: doyencg.com
Instagram: @DoyenCG
Facebook: Doyen Consulting
Chelsea on LinkedIn: /in/chelsea-brigham425
 
Doyen - Family Support Group (message Doyen for future dates - we have the next three at time of posting): 

https://us02web.zoom.us/j/83802346445?pwd=1cf8CJfRuFOO1VOASjCohXrKZ5C9rp.1

Meeting ID: 838 0234 6445
Passcode: 217346

Monday, 4pm PST/7pm EST August 24th, September 21st Wednesday, 9 am PST/12pm EST September 2nd

Connect with Us

Borzou: @bronxzou
Amanda: LinkedIn
Show page: nickelbronx.com/where-brands-get-their-edge

This episode is brought to you by NickelBronx.

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Creators and Guests

Host

Amanda Fischer

Host

Borzou Azabdaftari

Alabama-born, Virginia-raised, and Iranian-made, Borzou isn't just another CEO; he's a college dropout turned serial entrepreneur, speaker, and the brains behind the award-winning digital agency NickelBronx. Known for his prowess in branding and digital marketing, Borzou's work has garnered Hermes Creative, Clutch, and Marcom Awards. Beyond the boardroom, he's a connoisseur of design and anything aesthetically driven, embodying style with substance. Borzou's philosophy? Embrace what makes you unique; that's how you find your tribe.  When priorities with his family, health, business, and community are satisfied - you can find Borzou chasing once-in-a-lifetime experiences. His favorite things are amazing people and making memories, and he’s always adding to his collection of both.

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Borzou (00:00)
I don't think you

could have given me harder homework than heal yourself.

Amanda (00:03)
I mean

Borzou (00:15)
Hey everyone. Welcome to Board Brands Get Their Edge. If you are a marketer, we've got the tools. If you're a founder, we've got the truth. Today we are talking with Chelsea and Jennifer from Doyen, and we are going to focus a lot on recovery addiction and how that affects everyone from founders to your employees to, everyone around you. And this is unfortunately something I think a lot of people have dealt with. I want to introduce also my co-host Amanda again. I want to do a segue and hit you with the addiction thing, but I felt like that was me. not that she has an addiction problem.

Just like I couldn't make it work.

Amanda (00:42)
Are you allowed to say that it's like a functional thing? No, I think that's what everybody says when they have a problem, right?

Borzou (00:48)
I wouldn't know anything about that, Amanda.

but Jennifer first, tell us how you got into this space and how you started the company.

Jennifer (00:53)
For sure, yeah, happily. you know, I

Just entered the space wanting to figure out why my family was the way that it was. Generationally on both sides. Big Italian families, lots of drama, lots of mental illness, lots of addiction. I'm fortunate enough not to have some of those, but I definitely have

Borzou (01:10)
Yeah.

Jennifer (01:10)
some of the other ones. and just wanted to learn more and understand it. And then over time really just learned that this is my jam. This is what I was meant to be doing. And

have a lot of comfort in working in chaos. So I'll let you figure out what that meant about my childhood for the novice therapists in the world. But yeah, just ultimately driven by the passion of how do we support people who fall through the cracks who might not have otherwise been able to to find support and answers and relief and et cetera et cetera. So you know from

Figuring out my fucked up family to l how do we save people's lives if we are so lucky to do so.

Borzou (01:48)
And then Chelsea, how'd you get into it?

Chelsea Brigham (01:49)
I stumbled upon this a little bit. but I would say as well, you know, unfortunately had a tragedy within my family that led me to very much say, you know, I want to work in the addiction space. I want to help people and more specifically help families and help siblings have a different experience than I had. And you know, for the

non-therapists out in the realm, sometimes we think that you know, if we can help somebody else, it will somehow like make our own trauma or our own grief go away. and was sorely mistaken, you know, that that is not the case. but the longer that I've stayed in this work, it's changed for me.

I I was joking with my partner this weekend, but I was saying I was like, my spirit animal is not a dog. Like that's too basic for me, but I am similar in the sense of like I'm a dog who needs a job. And if I don't have one, I get destructive. And this work is a job and it and it has purpose, right? Like I

There's so many pieces of this work that are so hard, but like every morning I wake up and I know that I have a purpose and that for me is like what is most important and like what keeps me here.

Borzou (02:55)
Well, and a lot of a lot of the stuff I've heard you guys talk about I've not heard a lot of people talk about. And especially the way you

And

Jennifer, especially as you were like alluding to your family, like support the family of the person who has a problem, like in a really special way. Cause you know, I know like most things just enough to be dangerous, but obviously at some point the person with the problem needs to like want help. And there's there's a very limited amount of stuff that you can do before that. And that support to me seems so valuable in the way that you give it.

Jennifer (03:21)
Thank you. Yeah, I learned very early on by some great mentors that

mental illness, addiction don't happen in vacuums and if we're not treating the whole system, whatever, whomever is part of that system, then what's the point? 'cause it's the chances of somebody falling back and wasting time, money, energy, self-worth, feeling like they're unhelpable is so problematic to that individual and heartbreaking, really.

Borzou (03:48)
And I I feel like like most things, until you experience it in some capacity, right? It's

Jennifer (03:52)
Mm-hmm.

Borzou (03:53)
just really hard to relate. so anyone who has dealt with someone with an addiction problem, I'm sure this is like resonating immediately. But for people who have not had to deal with this yet, right? Like What would you both look for in terms of like signs of someone having a problem needing help? but then also like just how would you even define recovery for those people?

Jennifer (04:10)
Go for it, Charles.

Chelsea Brigham (04:11)
Well, I mean I I

Jennifer (04:11)
Mm-hmm.

Chelsea Brigham (04:12)
I think it's

It's a layered question. I think that there's obvious warning signs, right, that you can look for with someone who might be struggling with either substances or with their own mental health. but I also like to debunk the kind of like classic idea or stigma that comes with like what an addict or, you know, a person struggling with substances looks like.

Borzou (04:32)
'cause just to just a layer on that a little bit before you jump into it, because especially

Chelsea Brigham (04:35)
Sure.

Borzou (04:36)
Because I you know, in like the entrepreneurial community, but also just culturally, like alcohol, drugs, everything's becoming more okay and more rampant and more socially acceptable.

Right. And so especially when someone is like high functioning or successful, it's it's much harder to convince them or even, you know, for someone on the side to think that like, something's wrong here.

Amanda (04:55)
Is there something that families or individuals say that you and when you hear it, you immediately know how I guess serious the situation is? Like is there something that you hear are there like specific words or a sentence that you hear over again?

Chelsea Brigham (05:10)
yeah.

Jennifer (05:11)
I mean there's kind of the classic i I mean, Chelsea does a lot of our our intake call, does all of our intake calls really, so but I feel like I hear a lot of times

We know that there's something wrong, but we don't know what it is. We don't even know if we should be talking to you. And I will tell you, ten out of ten times they should be talking to us. Like once we dig in, it's like absolutely. But I think sometimes, most of the time, changes happen so slowly over a period of time that families or whoever's in their lives get the slow adjustment to it. And then so there there's this level of, well, this is normal.

I think but you know, it's starting to kind of become less normal and there's there's like that little red flag that's going off in their heads. Like I I think there's something going on. andor there's like a big event that takes place, a crisis that occurs, but that's separate. Do you agree, Charles?

Chelsea Brigham (06:01)
Yeah. It's it it for me, it's like I just don't know what to do anymore is or like we just don't know what to do. We don't know how this time is gonna be different. and I think I don't know so much if it's a phrase, Amanda, as much as it is is like just this general feeling of like hopelessness and distrust because

Also, like within the recovery or behavioral health or mental health space, I think there's a lot of crisis intervention that is does more harm than good, or that is just a band-aid and doesn't actually like fix the problem. and so yeah, I would definitely say it's more of a feeling.

Borzou (06:35)
Let's let's dig into that a little bit because y you know, I think everyone's seeing like an intervention on television, you know, but what are what are the things that people are doing right? And you were saying things can be better. What are the things they're doing wrong? 'Cause I I imagine a lot of people try to win it, right? Like they call all their friends and they get in a room.

Jennifer (06:53)
I mean,

the amount of times we get a phone call that's like, Yeah, we tried to do our own intervention a couple of years ago and it just didn't work. It's like, shit. Okay

Borzou (06:57)
N not gonna lie, that probably

Chelsea Brigham (07:00)
Mm-hmm.

Borzou (07:01)
would have been my first move. If I was in Sicilia.

Jennifer (07:02)
I get it, right? I get

Chelsea Brigham (07:04)
Yeah. Yeah. I just talked to somebody about this this week.

Jennifer (07:04)
it. I can appreciate it. But for anybody who's listening, don't do it. Yeah.

Chelsea Brigham (07:09)
Or on Friday.

Borzou (07:09)
I know it's

Amanda (07:09)
And what have it?

Chelsea Brigham (07:10)
well I mean here so h here's what I would say is that like intervention, a lot of times like a successful intervention is defined as the person has entered treatment. Period.

That's that and that's and it doesn't matter how we got them there, right? Because ultimately, like a how an intervention can take place is someone is pressured, forced, blindfolded, kidnapped, right? There's there's awful ways that people get there. but I would say the the most kind of common approach is compliance. And with compliance,

that's more about the external world, right? It's about making these people happy or getting these people off my back long enough so that I can go back to doing what I'm doing. It isn't about internal motivation and it isn't about an internal desire for something different or even an awareness that or hope that like I could be deserving or have something different, or do I even want it? so I would say

for me, like one of the biggest pieces is like destigmatizing like what success, like or what a successful intervention is. I think that our approach is very different than that. I'm biased, you know,

Amanda (08:17)
Can you

explain your approach and how it differs? Like if if that's what people think an intervention is, what do you guys do?

Borzou (08:24)
I'm not gonna lie, those all sounded like wins to me.

Chelsea Brigham (08:26)
Or short term wins. Yeah. Jen, do you wanna go for it? Yeah.

Borzou (08:28)
No, no, I I immediately see why it wouldn't be, right? Like I I I

I immediately I'm on I agree after hearing you say it, but like beforehand, I I a million percent thought

Chelsea Brigham (08:36)
Course.

Borzou (08:37)
you snatched someone up in a bag. And then and

Amanda (08:39)
Yeah.

Borzou (08:40)
then the treatment did its job. The idea that they were just like placating you to get back to what they were doing never even entered my mind.

Chelsea Brigham (08:45)
Yeah.

Jennifer (08:46)
My question to you would be, would it also feel would you feel that same level of success if after two of the four weeks that that person went to treatment, left treatment and never talked to you again?

So that's and I think like that's that's our motivation for it being different. And there's a lot of research, search in general has put it out that that that type of intervention that you see on TV, the surprise, we're all in a room sitting in a circle, we have our letters, and we're cutting you off unless you go to treatment, whatever relationship, monetarily, whatever it is, just doesn't work in the long term. You can get somebody through the doors of treatment, but you it's the chances of them staying.

and effectively following the aftercare recommendations which is usually up to a year of like continued step down services doesn't happen because the person's not internally motivated like Chelsea was saying so how do we do it differently that's a good question and I'm happy to dive in but go ahead Charles see she's ready I see the dog I can just see I can have a good picture

Chelsea Brigham (09:44)
No, I I'm all

I would I would say it's I would say we should split it. because I think that both of us have different

Borzou (09:52)
You don't you

don't have to take turns, it can just be a conversation.

Jennifer (09:54)
Yeah, see we're therapists, we don't really do that, you know? We like

Chelsea Brigham (09:54)
Okay. Yeah, we're like used to listening, talking, listening,

Borzou (09:56)
Yeah.

Chelsea Brigham (10:00)
talking. But isn't that also a conversation?

Amanda (10:00)
That is that part of it? Is that part of how

Chelsea Brigham (10:04)
absolutely.

Jennifer (10:03)
Totally.

Chelsea Brigham (10:05)
Well, what I what I was telling Borzo and like what I have so much like what I talk about with our families is like intervention, like when they call us, like the process has begun. Intervention is a process and all that it means is that we are intervening on the status quo.

It means that what we are doing is not working. It's not sustainable in one way, shape, or form. And we need to do something different. what's wrong about a lot of other intervention approaches is that it classically makes the person that's using substances or has, you know, problematic behaviors, it makes them the problem. And it says, You are doing this, it's it's not working for us. You've destroyed our family, you've destroyed our marriage.

And you need to change. And it misses the the the reality that

Addiction operates on the entire system. And, you know, at Doyen, we look at things through the lens of the family system. And what that means is that every person has a a part that they play. And so, if we look at like a plant system, right, and I'll reference like one of my favorite metaphors from Beyond Addiction, but like a plant system has all these little different parts.

Right. And there's a homeostasis that means that everyone does something to keep the status quo. And a family system operates in the exact same way. The homeostasis, and Jen kind of referenced this earlier, right? Is like the normal, like it slowly becomes this normal over time. And you'll hear families ask, like, I don't even know how we got here. Right. And they make these little concessions or these little changes just over time until there's

Jennifer (11:34)
And I'll just

Chelsea Brigham (11:34)
a

Jennifer (11:35)
interrupt real quick since we're, you know, trying this whole conversation

Chelsea Brigham (11:36)
Yeah, yeah yeah yeah.

Jennifer (11:37)
as a as an example is to the point where people have been physically abused, violent situations that have occurred multiple times and have created a story in their head that that's normal. I wish it

Chelsea Brigham (11:51)
There's a pug.

Jennifer (11:52)
was though. Like I would that would have been

Borzou (11:54)
just

just so we're super clear, the person who needs help has abused the family member multiple times. And they just yeah, they're do

Jennifer (11:59)
Yes. Yeah.

Borzou (12:01)
you guys ever get into this and and you're explaining the whole dynamic family system, whatever, and have the the family member who called like recoil that like what do you mean I'm part of the problem?

Chelsea Brigham (12:10)
yeah.

well and that's but that's the hardest part, right? Is like we do I do intake calls and I try to set that expectation very early that you know we do this differently, right? And and part of our approach is about families taking partial ownership that what they're doing is also not working. There's a a great line of, you know, when does help hurt, right?

Or is the way in which I'm loving this person actually not loving at all? And the most loving thing that I might be able to do is the exact opposite of what, you know, my intuition tells me to do. but yeah, I mean, telling a family member that they are part of the problem. especially, I mean, I'm not a parent, so I say this so humbly, but like parents who are like desperately just trying to keep their children alive, and we

Are having a really difficult conversation about

Your health is hurting them.

it is yeah.

Borzou (12:57)
I mean, a as a parent,

this is top three nightmares for me. and because I'm like not in it, you know, like at this point I a hundred percent would understand that like I would be responsible and my role would be big in it. But I could see if I had gotten there, right? Like fast forward fifteen years and it's a real problem. I could see not wanting know in that. And and and not wanting

Amanda (13:14)
Yeah.

Borzou (13:15)
to.

Amanda (13:15)
I mean, I'd imagine that

Chelsea Brigham (13:15)
Yeah.

Amanda (13:16)
might be your biggest barriers actually is the whoever's enabling and really like has this whole idea of this is the person with the problem, I don't have the problem. I feel like that would be really hard to communicate and get them to participate in the help in the therapy. I mean, you tell me, is like what is the biggest barrier for you guys as far as treatment is

Chelsea Brigham (13:38)
Mm.

Amanda (13:39)
So many, yeah.

Jennifer (13:40)
Yeah. I mean, I'll just say when families ask in the intake process why why wouldn't this be successful? You're describing this great thing and the success stories you have, but what about

not having a success story. And what I will tell families, no shame, is the families do not follow the recommendations they are given by the treatment providers that are working with the system. Their loved one, themselves. And it's not that we all know we have like some secret code or something, but there is this this piece to this work is

so counterintuitive as a parent and even as a significant other. And speaking from personal experience in that realm of the things that you're asked to do do not feel normal and natural in any way, shape, or form. It feels completely counterintuitive. And having to trust people that you are also simultaneously building trust with is like so hard.

And I think all we can do, Chelsea and I and the team, is just really acknowledge that constantly and reinforce that and normalize it. And and I think that that is part of what we do differently, is we do a lot of that work before we put that parent or that spouse in front of their loved one and have them say,

This is what I did wrong. This is what I want to do differently. This is what I'm doing differently right now. And my ask is that you also try to do things differently. And that changes the dynamic. This isn't you're wrong. This is I have stuff to change. But not everybody can go from an intake haul into a meeting like that. And that's where we kind of we slow down the process and really do a lot of buildup to that point.

Borzou (15:27)
That's

that's hard for me on a lot lower sticks stuff than that stuff. Right.

Jennifer (15:30)
I'm not alone.

You're not alone. I guess.

Chelsea Brigham (15:35)
Yeah.

Borzou (15:36)
It it

is interesting how the how many parallels for this tie to everything.

Jennifer (15:41)
Mm.

Borzou (15:41)
You know? Like the

Jennifer (15:43)
Did yeah.

Borzou (15:44)
basic rules of how you like treat and communicate and even set boundaries, right, with people.

Chelsea Brigham (15:48)
Yeah.

Borzou (15:49)
I know I know the boundary setting is a big part of especially how you coach the families as well. tell tell us a little bit about kind of your process on that and and specifically what people either are doing that they should not be doing or the opposite, right? Like a like a beginner crash course if someone wants to turn on one or two things right now.

Chelsea Brigham (16:05)
Okay.

Well, my first thought is, and again, I think this is where I disagree with how certain coaches or interventionists or people in this space approach families is this is what you need to do, and this is the only way. And if you don't do this, you're killing your loved one. There's support groups, you know, that really say like you just need to.

go entirely hands off. You know, you need to let your loved one hit bottom. and that is one approach to boundaries. And I think that's often like what keeps people away is because they can't do that. And then they're ashamed if they can't do that. And then they don't do anything. so my thought, like my favorite quote about boundaries is boundaries are what allow me to love myself and you simultaneously.

Borzou (16:46)
Good.

Chelsea Brigham (16:46)
In it's in theory, it's like really beautiful, but in like in practice, I would say like how I shape or how we try to shape boundaries is they're not external rules. They are not rules that you're placing on your loved one. They are internal limits for ourselves. And so what works for me, and then I communicate what works for me.

To my loved one. And the boundary, if you will, is like allowing the natural consequences that follow from that. So an example is different for everyone, right? but an example is I'm no longer going to wake up my husband to go to go to work tomorrow. He usually drinks late at night. I wake him up so that he doesn't miss work because if he misses work another time, he might get fired.

Well, the new boundary for me is like I'm no longer going to wake him up anymore. But the natural consequence for him might mean that he is late to work. And if he's late to work, that natural consequence might also mean that he loses his job.

Borzou (17:41)
Well, and that trickles down to everyone. Yeah.

Chelsea Brigham (17:42)
Right. So there I

mean, so that's like that's an that's an idea. but I would also say is, you know, a lot of like what we talk about at Doyen too is like what's in one family's window of tolerance is not in another family's. Like we have families. Jen, you know the family I'm talking about, like who called us. We have families who will call us and say, like, hey, but just so you know to start, like I am never going to allow my loved one to live on the street.

That's never going to be a boundary or a limit that I'm going to set. And we're like, okay, great. Like that you don't you don't have to, right? Like, so it's not about us opposing boundaries on to our families. It's about talking. We can make suggestions based on the information that we get, but it's also about helping families set boundaries that they can actually hold. And if they can't hold the boundary, then they should not be setting it. Because then that

Jennifer (18:26)
Yeah, let's

Chelsea Brigham (18:27)
just creates dishonesty and mistrust.

Jennifer (18:29)
And mis inconsistency, which I feel like consistency is like you gotta have it or else you get nothing.

Borzou (18:34)
I also feel like there's like an intersection of

Boundaries for yourself and like enablement, right? Cause in the same way you're like, I'll never never let them sleep on the street, which I could a hundred percent could see myself being like that and getting behind,

Chelsea Brigham (18:45)
Sure.

Borzou (18:46)
right? and my my like biggest experience with this, I had an employee with like a really bad drinking problem. And this is back when we were in person. And I it was kind of all the same stuff. And I obviously wasn't as emotionally invested as if it was like a family member. and like, you know, a decent person. Like I want to do the right thing by.

than his family and I didn't want to let him go because you know again then you can't pay for anything blah blah and like I mean his wife kicked him out a couple times he slept on our couch for longer than like in the office like more than longer than I want to and

I mean, at one point, like I have a buddy in recovery. I was like, okay, listen, you can stay, but you gotta go to A once a week with my buddy, you know? and I don't think anything I did helped. he did eventually leave and I think got a lot of help and like several years later sent me like a really nice note, like, thanks for trying. But but it is it's such a tough spot. Right? Like that intersection of like w where the line is and and how to like push someone to

Amanda (19:35)
Well, there are a lot of things at play too. It's not just, you know, so I you've I you said you had a an employee that had a problem and but you also had another employee that had like a problem with hard drugs earlier in person. And one thing though was this employee was extremely talented, right? So it's like you're enforcing boundaries, but you're also like, I want to keep that person on, I want to keep that person engaged, I want to try to help them. But

And I also don't want to lose them. I don't want to get rid of them because they're very it's it's about very talented person. So that's just a whole other layer. It's very just it's interesting. But yeah.

Borzou (20:08)
Yeah,

Chelsea Brigham (20:09)
Yeah.

Borzou (20:09)
yeah.

Chelsea Brigham (20:10)
But that's also like when we look at that through the lens of family systems, right? Is like, ooh, if I set this limit, right? like we have this homeostasis, this person is high performing and like it is going to cost me something if I set this boundary, right? Like if they because either he's can't work here anymore or he has to go to treatment and like and these are just these are real like normal thoughts, right? But like there is a loss that

and consequence, you know, on everyone, no matter what we're whether we're setting a boundary or or not. Yeah.

Borzou (20:40)
Well and and

and and of mine I think I think one's doing well now. I might check in on him because I I haven't heard in a bit. but the other one passed. You know, and like it's sad

Chelsea Brigham (20:48)
Yeah. Mm.

Borzou (20:50)
and and it's tough, but like it's still just someone I worked with. You know what I mean? Like when it's family, I can't even imagine like the pressure and heat and not just what the family's dealing with, but like you guys jumping in and just having to carry that, you know.

Amanda (21:02)
Is there anything you guys do differently within your own families from the infirm like from all that you've learned as far as like cultivating relationships to begin with? I mean, I don't know if you have children or not, or like, you know, Borzo, the way that Borzoo is like top ten nightmares, you know. just like wondering if there is anything preventative, because obviously you can encounter trauma in a lot of different ways that can cause.

situations even if everything, you know, if even if you do everything in your control that you think is the right way, but is there anything that you guys have done in your own relationships proactively?

Jennifer (21:33)
man. Yeah. I'll jump in first and just

Chelsea Brigham (21:36)
Mm-hmm.

Jennifer (21:37)
share. So I have a he's almost five year old son. And like everything that I know about this work is like a blessing and a curse because I'm like, did I did I say that right to him? Did I allow him to have his emotion? Is this gonna traumatize him forever and then he's gonna become my client and we're

I'm not gonna be able to pay for college. I'm gonna have to pay for treatment and da da da da da da like it's just it's it it's consuming. so you know, I I have my own therapist and spend a lot of time there discussing and checking these things out. and yeah, and I I just, you know, What I have been told and what really resonates with me is if I'm the healthiest version of myself.

That is the best thing I can give my son. And outside of that, I don't have a lot of control over what happens. And as long as there's that secure attachment, which I'm like, you know, thinking about all the time, the likelihood of him being able to be resilient and roll through the punches of life are going to be better. So that's my short short answer.

Amanda (22:35)
Thank you for

sharing that.

Borzou (22:35)
I don't I don't think you

could have given me harder homework than heal yourself.

Amanda (22:39)
I mean

you're trying.

Jennifer (22:43)
and sometimes that involves, you know, kicking out baby daddy and that's not fun. And I had to do that too, you know. So and what consequences does that have? And gosh.

Chelsea Brigham (22:53)
Yeah.

Amanda (22:53)
Kelsey, what about you? This is an interesting I w situation.

Chelsea Brigham (22:56)
Yeah.

Jennifer (22:58)
Mm-hmm.

Chelsea Brigham (23:00)
I think two parts.

Like one, like just Borzo, you know, you were talking about like just like how heavy it is for us to carry this. you know, just like the nature of this work. I think like the biggest thing for me in my own personal life is finding like ways to

just like have fun and and like restore hope and humanity and in the world outside of our work because it can be like really dark and very heavy like just like the stories that we hear and like the just the emotions that we hold. and so I find like levity and you know outlets for myself as like an absolute necessity and and breaks right

Relationally, you're gonna fuck up your kids, you're gonna fuck up in your relationship, like no matter what. And everyone is so obsessed with being like the perfect parent or the perfect partner. but you know, in my experience, both personally and professionally, is like it's actually not about being perfect, because perfect actually like keeps like that actually makes like more distance between you and whoever you're in a relationship with because

That doesn't leave any room or teach anyone like that it's okay to make mistakes. Instead, it's much more, much more about like when we fuck up. How are we repairing? Are we acknowledging, like, hey, I've been a total, you know, like asshole, right? Like the last week. And it's really not about you. This is what I have going on in in my life right now that I haven't talked to you about.

Or, you know, as a parent, you know, and again, like I say this humbly, like not as one, but just acknowledging, like, wow, you know what? Like, I didn't know what to do there. And this is how I first did it. And like now, after the fact, like I wish I would have done this differently. And I hope that, you know, I hope that you can know that I'm sorry. And if you have any questions or or if you want to talk more about this, like I'm here. so for me, it's just all about like really like humility and

And I think too, just like sometimes there's people think like, you know, they're a therapist, like or they're a mental health professional, like they have it all figured out. And it's like, no, like we're just humans, like and if like no, like we're just hu Yeah,

Jennifer (24:58)
We just have to for it, that's all.

Chelsea Brigham (25:01)
yeah, it we have different language for it, but like we're stumbling through the same things in our own lives.

Borzou (25:07)
By the I would I understand why you do that, that I'm not a parent caveat, but I would argue that that might make you better positioned to give this feedback because you're not like emotionally in it in the same way. Like you s you still have more

I agree with that too. I agree with that too. It's probably smart to caveat to cover your ass, but

Amanda (25:22)
Mm.

Chelsea Brigham (25:22)
Well it's

it's double it's double sided. One is like I'm 34 and you know everyone on my team is at least five. I mean, most of the people that call me and that I give direction to are at least 20 years older than me, right? And sometimes when they have a loved one and a s and a child and I'm giving them direction, I wanna just acknowledge. But yeah, I mean I've been a sibling.

I you know, I've witnessed it in my own family. I've witnessed it with my parents and yeah, sometimes my pragmatism, is what is my secret weapon in this work.

Amanda (25:52)
you know Your work requires a deep understanding of people at their most vulnerable and I was just wondering what's something you've learned about human behavior that might like that marketers should know. Like tying it into a little bit about what we do but because you guys

have an i a unique sense of of people because of the work that you do.

Jennifer (26:12)
I mean, what comes to mind immediately when you said that was connection. That humans, I mean, we're bred to be a part of a community, you know, we're bred, we're yeah. And like this, it's built into our DNA. And so much of the maladaptive coping behaviors that we see are because of a lack of connection.

within themselves, within their community, within their nuclear family. And I think that's when you can facilitate that, you can call it out and facilitate some of that connection, you can you'll have somebody for life. I mean we have I have clients that I've worked with for years. And I think there's it's because of that connection, the humility and yeah just genuine care.

Borzou (26:56)
Thomas, do you wanna add on that? Or you wanna thumbs up it?

Chelsea Brigham (26:58)
I mean yeah, just just from a like a marketing perspective, I

I mean, branding and like the all the stuff that I get to do with you guys is like the favorite. It's like the highlight of work right now for me. It's like

Borzou (27:07)
Yeah.

Chelsea Brigham (27:08)
I love it. It's my favorite thing to do. outside of, you know, like yeah, getting to whatever. Okay, I'm gonna stop talking. But it's been the highlight of my work right now. but yeah, I mean, in that is just like

Feelings, emotions, like humanity like doesn't discriminate. You know, like that's like the biggest thing that I've learned is like I'll sit in a room with someone who makes more money a month than I'll make in my lifetime. And yet, like the experience of grief and loss and fear and anger is the same, you know, and and I think that when we can like remember that.

Right, like for me, like that's probably like from a marketing standpoint, is the biggest thing is just like trying to speak to the shared experience that we all have, no matter our background, resources, you know, labels.

Borzou (27:56)
that human condition is the same no matter where you are, no matter how much you make, no matter where you feel in our

Chelsea Brigham (28:01)
Yeah, you can't escape the human

condition.

Borzou (28:03)
okay, I have two high-level questions to close out at. But I imagine a lot of people listening to this are gonna fall either into the maybe I have a problem camp, or maybe I have someone in my family that has a problem camp. so either, however you want to frame this, right? Like entry points to help for them, or piece of advice to keep them going, like if they're not ready to call yet, right? Like what is what are

a takeaway or two for each of those people, right? Like whether whether they're like, you know, in the mud and they feel like maybe they have a problem or whether they have a family member that they feel like they need to start making some.

Jennifer (28:36)
what I would say is if you're a family member and you're not sure if you're ready to reach out or are toying with the idea is remembering that what is best for you is best for the people in your life. So focusing on that, whatever that is, whatever decisions that brings.

whatever actions that takes, that that is truly that will have the biggest impact on the people that you love the most.

Chelsea Brigham (29:03)
Damn, I thought you were gonna make a plug for our free family support group that they could attend.

Jennifer (29:09)
No, because that this is

Borzou (29:09)
Not too late. Not too late.

Not too late.

I think that's a great resource. We'll put it in the link. It's it's linked somewhere when I post this.

Chelsea Brigham (29:15)
Okay, I love, yeah, no, I love that, Jen. I agree. my thought is just beginning to talk about it. And that like something I'm really passionate and what I would say that's changed since I started this work is like a lot of people if they think that they have a problem or if they have a loved one that they're concerned about is like it's so black and white. Like if they're struggling with substances, they need to get sober, they need to be abstinent, they need to go, you know, to this program. you know, people who might be struggling are like.

I'm not an alcoholic, you know, I'm not this, I'm not that. And so, I think like one of the best things that we can do is like just invite those people to be curious, like to be curious about substance use, to be curious about other behaviors that they use in their life that maybe they're sometimes having problems with. and like anything is like we are in relationship with things. I'm in relationship with food, sex, people,

Substances and relationships ebb and flow, right? I grab on to more things, maybe when I'm stressed, or maybe when I'm scared, or I'm grieving. And if we can be curious about it from that perspective and get to know and understand the relationship with something, it's just it's so much less judgmental. Like, and I think that so often like people.

Are afraid to start talking about it because someone is going to tell them what to do. And I think my tidbit of advice for families is to get out of the advice realm and listen. and ask questions. And as a person who might be curious about getting help or starting a conversation, is to ask for somebody to listen.

And if you're going to go see a therapist, you know, is like

Don't go to somebody who's just giving you advice because you're gonna get advice and you're either gonna get resentful that it doesn't work, or you're going to feel shut down, you know, and defensive. so

Should my thoughts.

Borzou (31:01)
And that's actually really powerful. We can do a separate episode on how to pick a therapist.

Jennifer (31:05)
we'd love that. We have so many thoughts on that.

Chelsea Brigham (31:06)
I would love that. That would be so fun.

Borzou (31:09)
right everyone. Comment if you want it and we'll do it.

Amanda (31:11)
Do it right now?

Like do you I mean like what I mean like how I wanna

Borzou (31:14)
Ha ha ha.

Chelsea Brigham (31:15)
Mm-hmm.

Amanda (31:16)
know how to make a therapist? Seriously.

Jennifer (31:17)
Yeah.

Chelsea Brigham (31:17)
Love it.

Jennifer (31:18)
We have a special service line for that, you know, so now I'm getting my marketing in right there.

Borzou (31:22)
I will say let's make it another episode, but I will I will link Chelsea and Jennifer and Doyen and both the Free Family program and the special service for that. but I am serious about doing another episode to cover that.

Chelsea Brigham (31:34)
Yeah, absolutely.

Borzou (31:36)
but it was great having you guys. Chelsea, I I try to make our calls fun anyway, but I heard permission I can dial that up, which is great. but it was great having you guys, thank you.

Jennifer (31:44)
Thank you guys, appreciate it. It was a pleasure.

Chelsea Brigham (31:45)
Thanks guys.