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At the edge of collapse—and creation—two unlikely co-conspirators invite you into a radically honest conversation about the future. This isn’t just another tech or self-help podcast. It’s a story-driven exploration of who we are, what we value, and how we might reimagine the world when the systems around us stop serving us. We blend personal storytelling, cultural critique, and deep inquiry into what it means to be human in an age of AI, uncertainty, and transformation. We’re asking better questions—together.
Because the world is changing fast, but maybe that’s precisely what we need.
Hosted by Beth Rudden and Katie Smith, two builders of systems and challengers of the status quo. Beth is CEO of Bast.AI and a globally recognized expert in trustworthy AI, with decades of experience leading data and ethics at IBM. Katie is the founder of Humma.AI, a strategist who drove innovation and revenue growth at major global brands before turning to human rights and technology for social good. Together, they make complex issues, such as AI and its impacts on everyday people, clear, personal, and impossible to ignore.
Beth Rudden is the CEO and Founder of Bast AI, a pioneering company building explainable, personalized AI for good. With over two decades of experience as a global executive and Distinguished Engineer at IBM, Beth blends anthropology, data science, and AI governance to create tools that amplify human dignity and intelligence—not replace it.
Her work spans healthcare, education, and workforce transformation, using ontological natural language understanding (NLU) to make AI transparent, accountable, and accessible. Through Bast AI, Beth is reimagining how organizations deploy AI that’s not only accurate but aligned with ethical values, cultural context, and cognitive well-being.
Beth is also the author of AI for the Rest of Us and a passionate advocate for AI literacy, epistemic diversity, and the right to understand the systems shaping our lives. She speaks globally on the future of AI, power, and social contracts—and believes we’re all stewards of the next intelligence.
Katie Smith is the CEO and Founder of Humma.AI, a privacy-first platform building community-powered, culturally competent AI. With over two decades of experience leading digital strategy and social innovation, Katie blends systems thinking, Responsible AI, and storytelling to create tools that serve dignity, not domination. Their work spans mental health, civic tech, and digital rights, using participatory AI to make systems safer, fairer, and more accountable. Through Humma.AI, Katie is reimagining how people and businesses engage AI that’s accurate, inclusive, and governed by consent and care. Katie is also the author of Zoe Bios: The Epigenetics of Terrorism, a provocative exploration of identity, trauma, and transformation. They speak globally on the future of technology, power, and justice—and believe human empathy is the intelligence that will define our time.
Subscribe to our Substack for bonus content: https://substack.com/@andwefeelfine
Beth Rudden (00:00)
like even I think that it's just going for what I did with Distinguished Engineer and STSM. I literally had to turn in my package multiple times because it had too many "we" ⁓ and it needed to be all "I".
And it was, you know, it's, the sign of the times that you should be the leader that is ending. So I do think, I think, I do think we is yes. And, you know, and there was a meditation that I did this morning, ⁓ where it wasn't, I am instead you say there is a woman meditating. There is.
Katie Smith (00:22)
I hope that's ending too. Yeah, we is so much better.
Beth Rudden (00:44)
you know, somebody walking or there is, you know, there is walking, there is breathing,
this is where I agree that it seems like jobs might become more individualistic, but what a waste, what a waste, what, what a, what, what, what horrible things that you have to learn that you are alone.
Like, why do people have to go through that where it's like, we can learn that vicariously, we can teach that through modeling, we can teach people that they are not alone. They do not need to do it all. They are enough to just be part of the team.
Today we are talking about endings and beginnings. How are you feeling today, Katie?
Katie Smith (01:43)
good I'm also recognizing that you actually read the scripts great job our producer will be so happy with you
You know, for the subject that we have today in terms of like leadership and how do we keep.
Beth Rudden (01:56)
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (01:59)
care, like, it is a balance. It is a struggle. Like, even today, I got like, I started the day with incredible news and it gave me so much energy and I was like, so much joy. And then all it takes is like one meeting with someone who just like is not on the same page. And it's like, okay, all right, the slog continues, you know, it's like, somebody said to me, I don't really know where this came from, but like,
Beth Rudden (02:18)
Yeah.
Katie Smith (02:25)
⁓ communication is the responsibility of the communicator. So when someone is not clear on something, I'm always like, God, what do I do? What can I do to create clarity here? I always like own it, you know, and sometimes you don't have to fully own it either. That's part of self care is letting go. So anyways, process of letting go today. Yeah.
Beth Rudden (02:29)
⁓
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, like don't let the bastards get you down kind of like letting go or yeah. Yeah. yeah. So what, ⁓ one of the things in my journey that I talk about is that I had a lot of things that I was doing as an executive in a large global company that I no longer needed to do. And, you know, a lot of it was, you know, there was ⁓ a lot of information in my head that I didn't need to carry anymore.
Katie Smith (02:51)
like
Beth Rudden (03:17)
and, know, but one of the things that I didn't really learn until I was much older or more mature in my career, I don't, I don't think it has anything to do with age. I think it's, it's, it's kind of like a maturity, ⁓ was like, listen to my leaders and listen to the quarterly reports and, know, keeping up with.
the news and it's super interesting because as a CEO of a startup, I definitely, I kind of feel like I totally dropped that because I had done so much of that in following the people and who had what position and all of the politics. And I heard this, it's from my father and it's a beautiful idea that politics is the art of the possible.
because it's like you have the possibilities of having ⁓ like people like, you know, to do things that are bigger than yourself and it is the art of the possible. And I believe that most days, ⁓ but like, I think that I took, you know, two weeks where I was, you know, driving and I'm a driver, like as a personality so much so that I definitely think that
I know when I have to completely take off. And so it's like I was nose to the grindstone, driving, driving, driving, doing all of the things. And I had my best friends in the world come in over the weekend. And I'm like, I'm going to take the weekend off and I'm going to shut down. And I know that some of the newer people who have entered in my life, they had never seen me do that. And so they had even contacted me on Saturday.
you know, like, hey, this is a text because I know it's Saturday and you're not looking at Slack. And I'm like, I'll talk to you on Monday. Like I'm, I'm out. Like, and it's so interesting because I think, you know, what, what do you do for your team? And like, I think we kind of touched on this, but like, do you have like specific communication channels so that you're modeling the, for me, it's my, I plan my breakdowns full stop. like decide.
Katie Smith (05:12)
Hahaha
Yeah.
Beth Rudden (05:36)
when I'm going to need one and then I try to plan it for myself because otherwise it plans me. Yes.
Katie Smith (05:38)
Hehehehehe
Interesting. I haven't heard
that. I planned my breakdown. That's brilliant. That could be a whole spinoff conversation. I want to know more about this.
Beth Rudden (05:54)
Well, haven't you ever don't you know when you're like I I get just ⁓ interesting
Katie Smith (05:58)
get burnt out, I manage burnout. That's like the constant
for me. I don't know if it's the neurodivergence, but I've heard a lot of neurodivergent people say that like, sometimes we have to work a little extra to be in the meeting or to be in in comprehension or to yeah, masking is just in and of itself exhausting, of course. ⁓
Beth Rudden (06:10)
Hmm.
Sure.
Katie Smith (06:23)
And because I am just railing through things, like I'm just going, yeah, I'll just get to a point where I'm like, I don't think I can do anymore. I think I've hit a wall. I must take puppy for a walk. Yeah.
Beth Rudden (06:39)
Yeah, that's,
yeah, mine is like, I'll just keep going and going and going. And my brain keeps going. Like, you know, like Friday night when I was trying to kind of disconnect, I was like, I was so glad that I had my friends here and ⁓ we do tons of cooking. We met, you know, right, we met in Dothan, Alabama and I was eight months pregnant and I had just traveled across country.
Katie Smith (06:46)
Okay. ⁓
Beth Rudden (07:08)
with a snake and a cat in the car, not together in separate things. And ⁓ I had to move my entire household because my husband was doing flight school in Dothan, Alabama. And there was this couple and I had heard that they had just come back from Belgium. And I walked up to them and I was like, you know what Europe's like, you're going to be my friend. And I'm like, I don't know how to.
Katie Smith (07:11)
Hahaha.
Beth Rudden (07:36)
to do that, and they also had a kiddo that was a little bit older so that I knew she was a mom and I'm like, how do I do this? What do I do? And they ended up being our really good friends. So we always cooked and did some of the nesting things that I had done at one point in my life. The thing that I experienced about pregnancy is I got this full onslaught of Martha Stewart hormones. So I was like, I am going to.
Katie Smith (07:42)
That's nice, really nice.
Beth Rudden (08:04)
be the best cook and I'm going to do dinner parties and like all the amazing crazy. that typically involved like completely melting down in ⁓ front of the oven when I would burn the banana bread. And to this day, my husband's like, don't talk to her about the burnt banana bread.
Katie Smith (08:12)
I love that.
Beth Rudden (08:29)
But yes, I...
Katie Smith (08:31)
Nobody talk about the banana breath
ever again. Do not say it.
Beth Rudden (08:35)
Right, right. But that's, mean, but I've always done that. And then like, I would just crash for like a weekend. And so that's, that's how I mean, I started planning my breakdowns. Really, it was kids, because they, they just totally, you have no, you know, like reserves left, you're done, like you're depleted completely. Like you said you hit a wall, like, I don't even know that I would hit a wall. was just like I was down. And so it, it you
Katie Smith (08:54)
Yeah. ⁓
Hmm.
Beth Rudden (09:04)
I learned in my days, like I can push it, but only to a certain extent, and then I have to take back. And so Friday night, my friend and I are talking and I'm just so glad that she had come here because I needed to get away from screens, away from like, you know, the news, away from the email. And it's like, I almost like, it's a, I get so bad where I'm like looking at email and I'm like refreshing and refreshing and refreshing.
And it's very addictive behavior. And I'm like, I've got to almost force myself to do.
Katie Smith (09:35)
Yeah.
Who knew that this action
would be so the thing that ends all of us.
Beth Rudden (09:44)
Well, and it's so like I, you know, it's so too. It's like this engagement economy is it's built to steal our time. And I don't I really don't like that.
Katie Smith (09:58)
Yeah. did I
tell you I went on TikTok? I, so I've been against TikTok. Haven't been into it because I get, I am very, I'm a pattern person. I can see patterns. So I got very quickly what TikTok was about. I saw the propaganda and I was like, this is, this is terrible. But as we've been researching, as we've been, you know, refining our community features, I've just jumped it back into Snapchat and to TikTok and just playing with it a little bit.
mostly posting videos of Tomlin just to see if Tomlin will go viral. I'm just sort of playing with things. And just immediately, I'm just like, ⁓ I could just do this for hours. Like the algorithm is so addictive. Like it totally got me. Like it's showing me little Tomlins all day long and other things that they know will get me going. was like, and I've had to be like, this is crack. This is like serious crack.
Beth Rudden (10:36)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (10:50)
I've never used TikTok quite like that before. The way that they do like, ⁓ show you views instead of likes is brilliant. You know, like no other platform does it quite like that. So it's like, ⁓ it's like, well, of course you got 300 views on your little image. If Instagram showed you how many views that you got on your little image, it would probably like, I don't know. There's some psychological stuff with TikTok that is very interesting that are simple hacks beyond just the algorithm. Anyways, ⁓
Beth Rudden (10:57)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
No, I,
Katie Smith (11:19)
It's addictive
and I don't want anything to do with it.
Beth Rudden (11:23)
And it's, you know, we have paleolithic bodies. Of course it's addictive. You know, of course it's meant to be. I watch a lot of dancing. So then I get like the heightened music or, you know, I love the classical cellist. ⁓ Yo-Yo Ma sometimes has some TikToks out there. I, or maybe it's not TikToks. Super sorry, not a huge user. have like a very defined limit. So I have systems in place.
Katie Smith (11:29)
and
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Beth Rudden (11:51)
So
I can only do TikTok like mainly when my daughter sends me something and then I can do it. And it's always something like, I don't know, shopping or like how she spends all my money. like, it's like, we do this in real life. We don't need to do this on TikTok. But I do think it is deceptive. And as you said, you went on there, it knew you instantly. And it...
Katie Smith (11:56)
Got it. Yeah.
so quickly. Wow.
Beth Rudden (12:17)
And it is like, it's like time, time be gone. Like where did that, you know, 10, 20 minutes go.
Katie Smith (12:23)
Yeah, it's completely
could replace, you know, any like I could see how it can replace replace Netflix and Hulu and like Paramount. You know, like all these are like, why would you have that when you just have TikTok? It's free. Yeah.
Beth Rudden (12:39)
I know. ⁓
My husband and I are watching my beautiful friend on a recommendation and it's all in Italian and so it's subtitles. So we cannot do anything while watching TV. And it's like that is often, ⁓ so another hack of mine and it isn't really a hack, it's work but it's so good for me is ⁓ get up, I try to sweat.
Katie Smith (12:47)
fun. You cannot look at the device. See, that's brilliant.
Beth Rudden (13:05)
whatever it is, you know, just sweat is my goal. ⁓ And then I do journal and then I do meditate and I know you meditate as well. And it's like when I do not do that on a daily basis, get a little nutty. Yeah, but it's like, it's not like a hangry cranky. It's ⁓ a something is off day.
Katie Smith (13:21)
Cranky. Yeah, little cranky.
Yeah, that's what it is. Like something because
yeah, I could just feel it in my body. Like energetically something's off, you know, and sometimes that's telling me something, not just that I'm tired or I really do just need to go take a walk. Like something's off, you know, like and but unfortunately, when that happens, well, to be honest with you, my body goes into a natural reset. I very much naturally can go into a very quiet place.
Beth Rudden (13:39)
Yes.
Yeah.
Hmm,
Katie Smith (14:00)
which is interesting. I've heard from many people that that's yeah, like I can
Beth Rudden (14:01)
that's lovely. It's like drop in, like nice.
Katie Smith (14:06)
get, I can get very present and stay present. ⁓ But then what happens when I get there is if I, it's almost like I've emptied everything and then I welcome something in and I'm just like, okay, what am I missing? And then things will start to bubble up, but I have to like clear out first before that work will happen.
Beth Rudden (14:09)
Mm-hmm.
you
You know,
⁓ translations of Nirvana or Nibbana is like a blowing out. And, you know, I don't know that mine is that quick, but like, know it's like, I sometimes have to remove, I have to remove the torturous thoughts, like, come on. ⁓ But like, yeah, no, that's great that you can just go.
Katie Smith (14:34)
yes yes
Yeah.
No, I've heard about these,
I am like, I'm intrigued. I don't have that. Like, I just don't know. I don't know how nice it is. Like, I think it's just different, but like, I don't have it. Sometimes, you know, it's like FOMO's like, what am I missing? What is that?
Beth Rudden (15:00)
That's nice. That's nice.
⁓ I have these like,
especially when I'm in that, like, mine is like, I don't know that I get, I think I could call it burning out. But like, I get these thoughts that it's just, it's like on repeat. And it's like, you know, it's like, I, there's, ⁓ I can't remember the author, but she talks about it. And she has this beautiful, like, kind of visualization for those like ruminating thoughts. And she's like, imagine it's a rat, and you take the tail of the rat.
Katie Smith (15:22)
Mm.
Beth Rudden (15:40)
and you put it into a glass jar and you drop it into the glass jar. And then you take the lid and you put it on top of the glass jar and the rats just sitting there screaming at you, but you can't hear anything because it's in the glass jar.
Katie Smith (15:50)
That sounds terrifying. I don't want to look
at it either. That sounds so horrific. It's bringing back my New York days where like this, rats would be like, what, you want to cross the street? No, my people, get away from me. I mean, I swear I had run-ins with rats. You just gave me PTSD.
Beth Rudden (15:58)
⁓ actual rats. Okay, no, no, these...
Okay, but I would have the same thing
if we talked about palmetto bugs or roaches. but yes. They chew on your fingernails and your toenails. ⁓
Katie Smith (16:19)
Okay, let's stop.
So, for burnout. Yeah, what do you do? I really, know, Tomlin's the best thing that's ever happened to me because like I have to get over an hour of cardio a day. And what's great about her is like oftentimes I can't just like walk out. So we dance. She and I have a little dancing routine. So like I've created this whole dance where it mimics her hurting me.
Beth Rudden (16:29)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Katie Smith (16:47)
Which is ridiculous, if anyone saw the shenanigans, I mean it would be the best.
Beth Rudden (16:52)
Hurting,
hurting, like hurting like a sheep hurting. Okay, not hurting. Yes, got you. Hurting, yes.
Katie Smith (16:54)
Yeah, because she's a hurting dog. Oh, not hurting, hurting. And so she herds
me around the house. And we just have a great all time, gay all time. yeah, so I do all sorts of silliness like that too.
Beth Rudden (17:09)
Do you have a playlist?
Katie Smith (17:12)
I sing little songs to her, don't make me, Beth, don't make me do the songs. Don't make me, don't make me. It's ridiculous.
Beth Rudden (17:19)
Well, okay, so I've always done like dance
party, like cleaning and in my household, like it is, we have the same division of labor since the beginning of time of all division of labor, like issues, everybody has issues. But I actually, really like, especially lately, I like things that have a beginning, middle and end where it's like, I know I can accomplish it. I know I can make it clean. I know that I can.
Katie Smith (17:34)
Mm-hmm.
Beth Rudden (17:45)
do a thing and put a good meal in front of my people or whatever. And I think that that dance party kind of thing, I used to do it a lot more with kids. you have, ⁓ there's a wonderful, wonderful, and this is old, Peter, Paul and Mary, they did a Peter, Paul and Mommy.
And it's like, you know, I'm being eaten by a billa constrictor and it's like, oops, there goes my, my like, I mean, it's so cute and it's like adorable. So we always did like the kids songs, but my 15 year old and 21 year old are not as into it.
Katie Smith (18:09)
Shh.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oops, there goes
another rubber tree plant. Yeah, yeah, I love those. Yeah, they're fun.
Beth Rudden (18:25)
Yes, so you knew it.
I have like 16 things in my head.
Katie Smith (18:31)
I do not sing that to Tomlin. But cleaning
is very therapeutic for me. So I, you know, I'm not like too much, but like I definitely keep the house very clean. And I love it. Like, so I just do my little putzing. And if I have a break, if I'm not doing my dance or my walk with Tomlin, I'm sort of like, okay, what do I have to do around the house? And so I
Beth Rudden (18:45)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (18:57)
I'm constantly managing the house or food and that's super relaxing. know, just that type of self care is very relaxing. Yeah.
Beth Rudden (19:00)
Mm-hmm.
Why do we call it self care?
Katie Smith (19:10)
Because we're taking care of ourselves, right? Our home is taking care of ourselves. that specific term, sorry. ⁓
Beth Rudden (19:14)
know, but why is that like...
No,
but I mean, even I just I know that there's like, this is a new ish probably form, where, you know, there was not a like, there wasn't a notion of division of labor, there were like male jobs, there were female jobs, they're, you know, very traditional, like kind of, we don't know, though, because like, I don't think that the archaeological record really had that.
very well spelled out, 2500 years-ish, you we've had one book-ish. But yeah, no, at least in the Western hemisphere. like, think, you know, why do we, I mean, why do we not innately know
Katie Smith (19:47)
That feels like more like a 20th century thing or whatever. Yeah. Well, more than that. Yeah, very sorry. It goes back further than that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're right. right. Fair enough.
Beth Rudden (20:12)
My 15 year old knows how to fill her cup. My 15 year old believes that the world is absolutely involved in her life. Whereas I think that when we get older, we mature, but we lose that notion of really taking the time to take care of ourselves and put that time in. always, oxygen mask goes on first. I learned that through caregiving. Right. And so how do we do that?
Katie Smith (20:21)
Hmm.
Beth Rudden (20:42)
How do we do that naturally so that everybody knows? Because we're CEOs of startups. We're looking for funding. We have investors investing in us. We have people who know that we are operating at the highest capacity that we can possibly operate in order to launch our thing. Why do we have self-care?
Katie Smith (21:08)
so we can keep going.
Beth Rudden (21:10)
well, or to become the best. I like the corporate athlete thing. Have you ever heard that? Like, you just, you you have to take care of yourself so that you can take care of the business. Like that's the whole idea, just like caretaking.
Katie Smith (21:15)
Mm-mm. Mm-mm.
Yeah, yeah. That's what I
mean, I guess, by keep going. Like, if I don't take care of myself, like, no one else is going to push this like me. No one's going to push fast like you, you know? Yeah. ⁓
Beth Rudden (21:30)
Right. Yeah, no, that's no, yeah, that's very evident.
It is, it is. ⁓ But yeah, I do think that it's like these moments that I see that I'm like, need to, we need to make this a part of a ritual for like building businesses. And maybe it was, but it was looked at as something very different. But now I, I mean,
I remember texting you Friday and you're like, talk to you Monday. And it's like, there was no question, right? And I think that is a new beginning because I do remember and I do have times in my life where the driving that I got was a behavior that I saw in other people who were really driving themselves.
in a way that I was like, holy cow, that is not healthy. yeah, but I don't remember a lot because I was doing 60, 70, 80 hour weeks too. it was, I mean, really, I don't remember why it was so dense in work.
Katie Smith (22:29)
not sustainable.
Yeah, you know, ⁓ I've been deeply influenced, obviously, from the past 10 years of working in civil rights, you know, social justice. And in that space, there's ⁓ a lot of conscious behavior around your on your off, you know, even in your email, like your hours may look different than my hours, but like, you know, ⁓ being really cognizant of not sending the email after 7pm or whatever.
Beth Rudden (22:54)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (23:14)
you know, the norm is for the company. Like there's lots of norms that everybody abides by just to make sure that like everyone is psychologically safe and like rested because if you're in that field, I mean, it's a slog and never ends. There is no like beginning, middle and end. It's just one step in front of another and the next generation takes it from there. So it's, it's a marathon that never ends. And so you have to do
Beth Rudden (23:23)
That's right.
Katie Smith (23:43)
really good self care to be able to run that marathon. And so that was actually informative, I think in terms of self care, because previous to that, when I was in the entertainment space, you never stop working, right? You're always working. And there is no like, of course, I'm talking to you at nine o'clock on Friday, on Friday, you know what I mean? Like there was never a question like.
Beth Rudden (23:45)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Katie Smith (24:09)
So what's interesting is to now be in this third world that I've created, right? That is not, can you hear like cars in the background? Yeah, sorry everyone.
I have created this third way with the California Benefit Corporation, I do still need to deeply care about psychological safety. We care about it from our end users. We need to care about it internally too. But I have noticed that I have reverted back to those old ways. So I, I've noticed that like, I'm, I Slack all the time. I email all the time. I'm responding to texts.
Beth Rudden (24:34)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Katie Smith (24:45)
all the time. Like I'm working all the time. It never stops. I work every single day. And I realized recently that I'm like, I don't know if I could keep behaving quite like this, but that was what it was needed for me because I'm wearing all the hats to move it forward. But now that the team is actually becoming more solidified, I'm realizing like, ⁓ I need to like really make sure that the culture now like starts right now.
Beth Rudden (24:50)
You're making a living.
Katie Smith (25:12)
in a really healthy way. So I've noticed that even though I'm feeling urgency when someone else is like, I'm not feeling well this week and that person is like a really critical person. Like I had to actually take a moment to go, that person needs self care and the best thing I could do for them is to not put any pressure whatsoever, right? And wait, waiting is not something startup founders do. We do not do waiting. We do get it done now.
Beth Rudden (25:38)
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (25:42)
And so, yeah, I'm starting to sort of like, not even just care about myself, but it's like how I am showing up affects others is sort of like where my head is at.
Beth Rudden (25:54)
Yeah, I learned that. ⁓ First of all, I heard this today. Wait is a four letter word. ⁓ yes, it is. Not what I like. Yeah, but ⁓ I had an amazing leader ⁓ when I, know, in IBM, when you hold other people's chits or you're a manager of their life.
Katie Smith (26:05)
I relate, yeah.
Beth Rudden (26:22)
you are now the subject of other people's dinner conversations. And so you, because you hold power over, you know, the, it's just how the power works. And I think that, you know, I've always been aware optics, optically of like the, people do what you do, not what you say. So you have to make sure that you do have working hours. And I have, ⁓ you know, I have, I have like, sort of like, I have
Katie Smith (26:29)
how power works.
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Beth Rudden (26:51)
systems and then I have people who are like, Beth, you just slacked 15 times in the last like 25 seconds, you know, maybe we need to just, you know, just calm down a little bit like it's gonna be okay. Like, okay. Yeah. So I definitely go on that. Like I go a little too far. And then I have like,
all my systems and I'm like, ignore for today, ignore for today, ignore for today. And I'm like, oh shit, this is gonna be a bad day. Especially if it's like 10 AM in the morning. So it's like, have to put in then like secondary controls of actual human beings who are like, okay, you have to take a break. And that's when I know I need to like actually plan my breakdown in imminently.
Katie Smith (27:37)
Yeah.
Beth Rudden (27:39)
And
Katie Smith (27:39)
Yeah.
Beth Rudden (27:40)
then there's like breaks that I put on and self-impose because like my friends coming over, we to big concert. But here's what I wanted to kind of go with this a little bit, is we have a very, very privileged Western individualistic view of working.
Katie Smith (27:52)
Mm.
Beth Rudden (28:02)
And ⁓ the ethic or the ethos or the atmosphere that we were all raised in, good, bad, ugly, I do think that was very much pre-COVID, post-COVID, 100%. Although I used to love like praising the millennials who would be like, yeah, I'm eating lunch. Sorry, I'm gonna go for a walk. Be like, you can do that? How did I not know you could do that?
Katie Smith (28:14)
yeah.
⁓ So, Next is like, we will die!
We will melt! A break? What?
Beth Rudden (28:35)
What? Are you smoking? Isn't that like,
Anyway, I think what does it look like in sweatshops? What does it look like for people who are not raised with even systems that would take care of...
like children's rights or what is it like to live in a world where like, can you live in a democracy when workers don't have rights?
Katie Smith (29:13)
question.
Beth Rudden (29:15)
⁓ And what is our employment situation look like? And I will, I'll tell a little bit of a story. got to do a, ⁓ this is my second time and this time I came back as a panelist, but originally I did a keynote at Colt, which is the Colorado Leadership and Learning in Teaching. And these are teachers, professors, instructional designers and
I did a keynote in 23 and then I just recently did that last week. think blur. Yes. And the, the thing that the teachers asked and the predominant question is like, and I brought in another CEO, really good friend and she is just crushing it.
And, she's going through her series B and like, she's, you know, sort of like on the road and I can like just see she is just becoming. And I think she is so wonderful. And the work she's doing is amazing too. And, you know, as a industry leader, many of the teachers and professors, they desperately, and I definitely saw this in IBM. They're like, how can we prepare our students for industry? And I think.
The answer I gave and the the conclusion that I came to is something I want to know. It's a little controversial, but like this is what I think teachers should be doing is ⁓ they should teach students, especially in university or at the post high school level, the higher ed to
be a part of really well performing teams or be such an amazing contributor with such an amazing almost portfolio of what they've done for businesses that industry competes for them. That industry provides them the resume of what they've done for their team's community. And I think that that's the right model is that we need to start teaching
Katie Smith (31:07)
Mmm.
Beth Rudden (31:24)
students and I don't want to say kids because I also think that you know returning to school and going back to get a degree and getting certified in something and then being able to build a portfolio especially in ⁓ developing countries where you might not have vacations or you might not have
Like the rights of a worker, ⁓ you might be a child who has to be in, like all of these things that we live in the privilege of the United States where we do have some unions, ⁓ but we also have workers' rights. Like how do we get people to understand that they have, the only safety in this world is the safety we create.
And I think that we know this as entrepreneurs. ⁓ I definitely, the safety I create is my sales pipeline. That is my safety. Like once I have that and all of that is fully plumbed, I can sleep at night because that's my safety that my team and I, created. And justice is the same to some extent too. It's like the only justice in the world is the justice we create. And I think that...
Katie Smith (32:17)
you
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Beth Rudden (32:43)
What do we do? How do we get, I think, Americans to understand this beautiful, wonderful world of having self-care be a part of what we need to be effective at what we do while making a living, while at work?
Katie Smith (33:03)
while
making a living. ⁓ Well, I mean, this is a very popular subject. feel like honestly, it's been told and retold and in so many different ways. So the way that I'm interpreting this in terms of endings and beginnings is...
Considering the job reports that are coming out right now, when I think about psychological safety and I think about people doing self care, it's really thinking about the world is changing and how are you going to be okay today?
Beth Rudden (33:31)
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (33:44)
you know, find your peace today, find your joy today and prepare yourself for the inevitable future. Right. And so I think there will be a need, a great need, maybe more than ever before for us to care about ourselves and our communities, you know, as the shifts are going to move faster and faster. think the revisions in the jobs report and the jobs report and it's showing a trend that I think is just going to become more more entrenched. And so
there's gonna become a narrative around this, where I think it's going to impact people's mental health. I mean, it's already impacting me and like, I'm not even looking for a job. You're like, I have a job. But like this idea that there's gonna be like this, my peers are gonna be in this place. I'm already seeing it on LinkedIn. People that I'm like, that person is incredibly qualified, is looking for a job.
and is like asking for help, which is the right thing to do. But the fact that that person would have to do it at this stage in their career, like, you know, I'm, I'm very cognizant of that. So I think unfortunately, that's a beginning that's not positive. What I hope is ending is this idea of individualist behavior that you were sort of identifying earlier, because if we approach this transition in that same mindset,
we won't succeed. Like we literally need each other to succeed in this new season we're about to go into of life. And so no matter what age you are, no matter where you are in your career, it's going to impact everyone. Like so many people I've seen like really powerful people just say like your four year degree doesn't matter anymore. Like that's not what's going to ensure that you have, you know, the American dream. Like it's, that's not enough. And so, ⁓
Beth Rudden (35:33)
That's right.
Katie Smith (35:39)
Yeah, so self-care, I think we're all gonna be reinventing what that looks like soon. But when we had Dr. Sorry, just one thought. When Dr. Desmond came on and he talked about his joy plan, to me that's self-care. Yeah, the joy of self-care.
Beth Rudden (35:46)
Well, hold on.
Yeah. Sure. That's right. And, and
well, and, and, you know, the things that I have the privilege to do in the morning because I have created the time and the space in order to do them. And, you know, I remember like my sociology classes and understanding the impact of what a dishwasher or a laundry machine had on a human being.
Katie Smith (36:08)
Good night.
Beth Rudden (36:19)
as far as like how much time you spent washing clothes or washing dishes or cleaning up. Anybody who's gone camping, know, just tenfold that, especially if you have to haul water. ⁓ There's some really ⁓ deep stuff here, but I think that having an understanding of also how the economic machine works.
And when we start seeing a slowdown of jobs ⁓ with the jobs report or anecdotally, or we see that, that's actually on the tail end because people are spending less. Because every dollar you put into the economic machine creates a job for a human being to supply you with a good service or credit in order to be able to take that dollar and then use that.
Katie Smith (37:08)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Beth Rudden (37:13)
use that, sorry, you supply a dollar or credit, they supply good or service in order to be able to take that money. So, you know, that's how the economic machine works. And so when we see a lack of jobs or we see, you know, companies having large layoffs because AI has automated those jobs away and then you hear, but they re like rehired all of those people. But
Katie Smith (37:18)
service.
Beth Rudden (37:42)
They were a different type of person. And then you're like, well, how old were the people that they let go? And did those people have pensions or did those people have ⁓ 401ks or did those people have retirement? And, you know, where are those people? Where are our people? like, where in the community are they able to have this necessary function of being able to give back to this community that they live in and they belong to and they...
worked 80 hours a week, if not more so for at one point in their career. So how do we manage that where we are going through definitely through a slowdown? But I wonder if we could reinvent it where instead of individual contributors and ICs being picked up, how about well-performing teams?
And, you know, back to where I told the teachers, I'm like, how do you create human beings that function well as a team together? And maybe that's a, yeah, that's maybe that's a new model for universities to be able to truly prepare people for industry. need, I need to know what your well-performing team can do, you know, and I, need to know what you can do within the well-performing team. Otherwise you're training them.
Katie Smith (38:48)
Yeah, it's definitely essential.
So it's interesting, what's happening in my head right now as you're saying this is like, are we gonna have teams?
Are we gonna have teams?
Beth Rudden (39:18)
I think
so. Yeah, I think we have to.
Katie Smith (39:21)
I mean, I think teams are going to look so different. I don't know if this is going to be true, but each of us is going to have 10 agents that does different things for us. Is that the new team? And how do we create self-care if that's the new team?
Beth Rudden (39:37)
Okay, so to create 10 agents that work for us, okay? Let's just, let's go down to two. Right? Let's say you have an agent to, ⁓ like you have to have an agent that has an understanding of a particular task. And then what kind of information do you ⁓ make sure is available to your model context protocol to be able to sufficiently give
that agents the information that they need from your data store. What data is that? And then do you store that data? How do you version that data?
Katie Smith (40:07)
Mm-hmm.
So this is the new job, right? Is to,
Beth Rudden (40:15)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, just that there's a lot of decisions that need to be made. You have to decide on the data. You have to decide where the data goes. You have to decide how long to keep the data. Then you have to decide how you, how, how do you want to clean that data and make sure that that context protocol is picking up the right context so that it can feed the agent of what you need. And then, okay, great. You have an agent and then you have another agent and then you have like what 10 more. I mean,
How do you know how to do that for a job you've never done? So if you are brand spanking new coming in from university and you know how to perform well on tests and maybe you were a TA, so maybe you taught, you were teaching assistants, you actually graded and taught other students, really, how do you know what to do and what jobs are doing? How do you know you're in a cost center?
How do know you're in a profit center? How do you know what your sales cycle is? How do you know what your pipeline is? What's your top of the funnel? What's your conversion rate? How many? Again, I am rattling off all the things that go through my head on the current daily basis.
Katie Smith (41:26)
It like the opposite of self care. ⁓
Beth Rudden (41:39)
I love the, I'm going to make fun of it because I just, thought it was hilarious. Like this advertisement that I saw, it's like, come be your own boss at Microsoft. You're a 19 year old kid. What are you going to be the boss of? Like, what are you going to get your agents to do? And I dare you to answer this one, Katie, you're a 19 year old boy child. You have like dropped out of Stanford. Like,
Katie Smith (42:03)
Yeah, don't
ask what that child is going to do.
Beth Rudden (42:11)
And I'm like, I'm like really, they're gonna set up a profit center for you. They're gonna create a product that they're gonna sell to other people.
Katie Smith (42:20)
Well, I really think it's going to be like, okay, we're going to be, you know, like the old, ⁓ phone connectors back in the day where they would take the little line out, put the line back in and connect phones and people together. I think we're going to be those people again, but it's going to be like AI agent don't connect to database this way. But I think we're going to, we're going to revert back to that. Just connect and go.
Beth Rudden (42:31)
Yep.
Katie Smith (42:50)
That's what I think is going to happen. So how do we do self care in that environment?
Beth Rudden (42:55)
I think, I mean, same way that we do, I mean, same way I think all GenX people do is we adapt to the situation, we figure out the best way to like survive it. And then like, and then we get a PRM. And then we anesthetize the parts of our brain that needs to be anesthetized in order to make it through another day. yeah, I do think it's different. For me, it's so,
Katie Smith (43:06)
We go to happy hour and then survive the night.
To show off again, yeah.
Beth Rudden (43:25)
different running my own business, creating my own business, building my own business. I definitely feel I did. There's a wonderful tool. It's called our entrepreneurial operating system. It's from this book called Traction, and it has something called a people analyzer, which allows you as a human being to define what you value and determine whether you get it, you want it, and you have the capacity to do it. And you can take these kind of like self-attacks.
assessments and I am loving being a CEO. Like I get it. I want it. I totally have the capacity to do it. Like I love building a company. love seeing. Well, I mean, I didn't know this. Like I didn't know. mean, OK, I kind of I mean, everybody, everybody knew like, but like the the I mean, the kitty, do you believe that? So.
Katie Smith (44:07)
You're a natural CEO, ⁓ 100
Yeah. You knew, come on. Yeah.
Beth Rudden (44:23)
There's people who can do startups, take huge risks. Awesome, like I get those people. There's people who work for corporations. There's people who work for libraries. There's people that I know that love their gardeners, love their job, are doing what they wanna do.
Do you foresee the world really changing so badly where people are not able to form teams? I think we have to form teams.
Katie Smith (44:54)
Sort of, I do see
that, unfortunately, because what's the number one job going to be that's outside of like, well, we all thought, go into computer science, go into STEM. I think the job of the future is an HVAC person because of data centers. And that's not a team sport,
Beth Rudden (45:11)
Hmm.
Katie Smith (45:15)
people lean on each other to know things, but there's usually one person who like is doing the job, right? And so I guess it is sort of a team sport, but like you're the one there solving the problem.
Beth Rudden (45:29)
Sure, plumbers, electricians, know. Right, yeah.
Katie Smith (45:31)
Yeah, that kind of trade work I think is like actually pretty
smart for people to go into right now because AI is not going to take that over anytime soon. You know, the humanoids are not quite there yet.
Beth Rudden (45:37)
I mean...
Well, I mean, unless we have like Call of Duty for the modern plumber, right? So you play Call of Duty, you learn how to do the plumbing, and then you go do the, I'm just teasing. Yeah.
Katie Smith (45:50)
Yeah, no, it's going to get there for sure. And then
we'll have like super robotic vision that they can do all sorts of insane tasks, but not in the next three years. In the next three years, it's all the office jobs that are going to be like the McKinsey consulting is like, what do we do now? All you do is check, go into chat, right. And say, Hey, do a McKinsey report, you know, and then it's fits it out. Right. And so it's not the same.
Beth Rudden (45:57)
Right, but not next year, you know?
Mm-hmm.
I,
Katie Smith (46:20)
It's not the same, but the optics are
Beth Rudden (46:20)
but that's, yeah, that's not actually.
Katie Smith (46:23)
enough for people to go, this is fine, this is good enough.
Beth Rudden (46:26)
I know, yeah, I agree. I think human care economy, doing lots of things, I hope, is that definitely requires team sports. think that any sort of group, I think anything, back to politics is the art of the possible, anything that you need multiple people working together on because it's bigger than what you're doing yourself.
Katie Smith (46:33)
Yep.
So I would argue work may become more individualistic, unfortunately, to some degree for most people. However, I think it creates a vacuum. creates a need for us to do it outside of work. And so outside of work, think collaboration matters more than ever. like yesterday, I showed up to a beach volleyball game. Never don't know these people at all. But I know that like I need.
Beth Rudden (46:55)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (47:17)
I want to have, I want to build this community at the beach. And so I'm like, I'm just going to show up and I'm going to, I have to know how to enter into the space where they all know and like each other. And, you know, and I have to do that respectfully. Right. And then you have to get along with these people and then you have to learn their rules of how they do beach volleyball or whatever the scheduling is. And you have to learn like, what are the teams and I have to watch for two weeks. You know, like you have to adapt and learn and you have to become a part of something.
I hope that people learn that when we're collaborating, doesn't have to be for a job. It can be for joy.
Beth Rudden (47:53)
Yeah. Yeah.
Or to share expertise. Freely share expertise, yes.
Katie Smith (47:59)
Yeah, whatever the case may be, but it doesn't... Yeah,
yeah. And I think for our generation, we're going to be doing a lot of that in terms of bridging. But next generation, I don't know if it's going to be as much of a team sport in a lot of work. know, obviously that's not true if you're doing certain things. Like if you're a nurse and a doctor and you're in surgery, right, that's a team sport, everyone, please. ⁓ Everyone know what you're doing.
Beth Rudden (48:26)
Well,
no, think even, I mean, even the best companies are teams. Absolutely.
Katie Smith (48:34)
⁓ absolutely. You know, I say that, but like we're building a team at Humma. Of course we are.
Beth Rudden (48:40)
No, no, I know you
are,
like even I think that it's just going for what I did with Distinguished Engineer and STSM. I literally had to turn in my package multiple times because it had too many "we" ⁓ and it needed to be all "I".
And it was, you know, it's, the sign of the times that you should be the leader that is ending. So I do think, I think, I do think we is yes. And, you know, and there was a meditation that I did this morning, ⁓ where it wasn't, I am instead you say there is a woman meditating. There is.
Katie Smith (49:04)
I hope that's ending too. Yeah, we is so much better.
Beth Rudden (49:26)
you know, somebody walking or there is, you know, there is walking, there is breathing, there is, you know, so you get that, that I out. ⁓ I think this is where I agree that it seems like jobs might become more individualistic, but what a waste, what a waste, what, what a, what, what, what horrible things that you have to learn that you are alone.
Like, why do people have to go through that where it's like, we can learn that vicariously, we can teach that through modeling, we can teach people that they are not alone. They do not need to do it all. They are enough to just be part of the team.
Katie Smith (50:11)
Yeah. Maybe what we can try to inspire and put out into the world is we don't have to buy into this future that is being designed for us right now that everybody has 10 agents and they don't collaborate with a real team. know, like there's a different way to do this. Everyone, you know, yeah.
Beth Rudden (50:21)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yes, it's back to Hillary Clinton, it takes a village.
Katie Smith (50:40)
Was she the one who started that?
Beth Rudden (50:40)
I
think so, maybe. Michelle Obama. Michelle Obama started that. Yes. So mode it be.
Katie Smith (50:49)
hilarious. ⁓ Yeah, I don't know. don't know. Like self care feels very different and indulgent and I'm absolutely doing it.
Beth Rudden (51:01)
But you as the leader, by indulging in self-care, you are caring for your team. It's team care. Yeah, yeah, it's team care. That's right. And the more you do it, the more you model it, the more you can be part of it, the more, I mean, we all do understand we are all far more effective when we have rest and reflect.
Katie Smith (51:06)
Yeah.
Yeah, I'm hoping that, you know, as I talk about these things, it's like, yeah, this is what matters. Yeah.
Beth Rudden (51:29)
like rejuvenate, that is how the natural condition of the human body works. Sleep.
Katie Smith (51:30)
Thank
Yes, sleep is like
the most important thing by far for me. And but also, of course, good nutrients. Yeah. And sweat. What you were saying earlier, like, yeah, I have to sweat like the best way for me to get out of a funk, sweat it out, whatever, you know. Definitely ocean. Yeah, definitely. We were there yesterday. It was so beautiful. The sunset was gorgeous. Yeah.
Beth Rudden (51:42)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I like sex.
Mm-hmm.
Or ocean. I mean, you can get ocean.
Hmm.
I know that's I, I miss water, but I can get to water. So it, works. Yeah. I'm definitely got my water fix recently, but yeah, no ocean is ocean is different everywhere you go at every time. Like you can just stare at the ocean and there's always these like, just everything changes, you know, in the blink of an eye, best TV ever.
Katie Smith (52:06)
You had a water fix recently.
It
really is. I can never get tired of it. It's the best.
Beth Rudden (52:29)
Mm-hmm,
I know. Thank you very much for talking to me about self-care.
Katie Smith (52:34)
Yes, thank you for bringing it up. It was a nice, easy conversation of just thinking it through.
Beth Rudden (52:36)
Yeah, it was.
Thank you for tuning in. This episode of And We Feel Fine is brought to you by Bast.ai, where we have full stack "Explainable AI". Thank you so much for listening. And if you like and subscribe and re-stack and all of the things, we would be very, grateful.
Katie Smith (53:19)
This episode is also brought to you by Humma.ai. We're a California benefit corporation that is creating "Empathetic AI" made by and for community. Please like, subscribe, restack. We're on YouTube, but we're on Substack. We're on Apple. We're on Spotify, iHeart, all the places.
Beth Rudden (53:39)
Thank you.