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Welcome to the 'Lead Smarter. Not Harder' Podcast by David Kent, your window into the minds of visionary leaders, trailblazing innovators, and savvy business owners.
Get ready to immerse yourself in the captivating stories and invaluable lessons from the best and brightest minds in the business.
00;00;04;07 - 00;00;25;07
David
Welcome to Lead Smarter, the podcast, where you'll hear powerful, no nonsense conversations about leadership with today's top experts and real world leaders like yourself. Get the inside strategies, insights, and secrets they've learned on the journey to lead smarter. Let's dive in.
00;00;25;10 - 00;00;47;18
David
Today I'm joined by Tracey Grove. Tracey is a leadership consultant, executive coach, and the founder of Pure Symmetry. She works with leaders across different cultures to help them build trust, communicate more effectively, and lead with consistency. In this conversation, we focus on a few leadership fundamentals that seem to often get overlooked. The first is trust. Tracey frames it as a behavior over time, which means it's not about our intention or personality.
00;00;47;18 - 00;01;08;05
David
It's about consistency, especially when things aren't going well. We also talk about feedback, the difference between being kind and being nice, and why avoiding difficult conversations, even with good intent, ends up limiting the people you're trying to support. Finally, we look a little beyond the basics, and we talk about the complexity of cultural awareness for the rest. You'll have to just buckle up and take a listen.
00;01;08;07 - 00;01;27;08
David
Hey, Tracey, thank you for joining me again on another conversation. It's been a while, but I do remember chatting with you. I loved getting a chance to know a little bit about you. I was also, I remember how excited I was to learn about your cultural background, how much that matched with my own experiences. My team definitely geeked out about it and I'm really looking forward to talking to you more.
00;01;27;10 - 00;01;27;26
Tracey
Oh, thank.
00;01;27;26 - 00;01;29;29
Tracey
You so much for having me. David, I appreciate it.
00;01;30;00 - 00;01;48;13
David
Yeah. No problem. And I know when our conversations, we talked a lot about authenticity and how to be both authentic in leadership and how to balance that in a conversation or in an environment that has lots of different cultures. I did want to ask you, though, how does authenticity build trust and engagement within a team from your perspective?
00;01;48;14 - 00;02;16;21
Tracey
From my point of view. Intercity is really the cornerstone of trust. So I think about trust in terms of a formula. So think about it as trust is behavior multiplied by time. So personality is really how you respond on a typical day when everything is going well. But characters how you show up when things don't go well or when no one's watching you and that character and the behavior that reflects that character.
00;02;16;21 - 00;02;44;05
Tracey
If it's consistent over time, that builds trust. So leaders who are very authentic and consistent, they keep their promises, follow through on their commitments. These are the leaders that build trust with their teams. They communicate their intentions for why they do things, for why they make decisions. Even if they can't necessarily share all the details. They will allow people to understand their thinking behind the thought process, behind those decisions, and they don't really make promises that they can't keep.
00;02;44;05 - 00;03;04;29
Tracey
So for me, that is the kind of authenticity that builds trust and in turn then builds engagement because these leaders will are building real relationships with their teams. They trust their teams to do the right thing. They look for common ground when there's a problem to resolve or there's differences to resolve. And they're also humble, so they might ask for help.
00;03;05;00 - 00;03;28;18
Tracey
They're willing to admit when they're wrong or when they don't know, and they're prepared to not always be right. For me, that's really the authenticity. The consistency and the humility are what build trust and what build engagement. And these leaders generally tend to be very good listeners, and they can express empathy very well, and they really make amends if they do make a mistake, which we all do, because we're all just human.
00;03;28;23 - 00;03;46;17
David
I love that entire description. And for me, it sounds like if I was to just listen to that description and I didn't hear the question, I wouldn't actually think you were describing a leader. I just I would think you're just describing somebody who's trying to be a really good partner. You almost described to me, like the kind of person I want to be like in a marriage.
00;03;46;20 - 00;03;48;09
David
Sounds weird to say that, but like.
00;03;48;11 - 00;03;49;06
Tracey
Absolutely.
00;03;49;07 - 00;04;09;19
David
All their only reason I say that is because I've thought about that kind of description you just gave. I've had conversations with friends and colleagues, and I remember saying, like, I think the most important thing I can be to any relationship, but I was thinking about my wife at the time is predictable. And even if that's bad, predictable, like I you can you can depend on me to for that to be how I react to a situation.
00;04;09;19 - 00;04;34;22
David
An example of that I've owned several times. There's I try to be very mindful, and I try to give a lot of room and grace in situations, and I'm really good at it. But I also know very, very specifically where I'm very bad at it, and it's always the same. And it's always, almost always related to food. If I'm really hungry, I know going into it and now I can at least say I'm going to make bad choices right now, and I either need help and I'll let people know I need help.
00;04;34;22 - 00;04;47;19
David
But there's also a point at which it's really important you don't help me because it's going to be like a problem between us, and it's not us, it's me. I'm hungry. I went into a weird direction with this, but it's I think about that all the time, like the kind of person I want to be for someone else.
00;04;47;19 - 00;05;03;04
David
And then how do I fail that? And if I fail it, can I at least get ahead of that? Own it. And if I'm going to fail it, I don't want to say fail it dependably. I can try to be better at it, but be predictable. Seemed like a value. And what you described to me sounded exactly like that.
00;05;03;08 - 00;05;10;11
David
Can you, from your own perspective, can you share a story from your own career where authenticity made a difference in that, in the outcome?
00;05;10;12 - 00;05;31;15
Tracey
Is it? There's an interesting story, actually, one that I, I talk about in the book is I was I was working on a team and there was a leader on the team who was a little, let's call her condescending, a little superior. She was not a good partner. It was a small team. So there were only about eight people on the team.
00;05;31;21 - 00;05;52;10
Tracey
So everyone really had to lean in and work well together to get things done. She was joined us as a researcher and was very, very good at what she could. Really smart, incredibly bright, but terrible in her way of relating to other people. She had a very condescending tone, and this was becoming a real problem for the rest of the team.
00;05;52;10 - 00;06;09;26
Tracey
And I was starting to get complaints from the team when they were saying that they were dreading being in meetings with her. I started calling those meetings her lectures because she came across as a lecturer, and it was interesting because when I chatted to her, you know, outside of that kind of environment, she didn't come across that way.
00;06;09;28 - 00;06;26;20
Tracey
So I invited her into my office and I said, do you know, Martha? You were pretty rough on the team in that meeting. I'm worried about you. What's going on? Are you okay? And she started to cry, and she said she she'd always had to fight to be heard. Growing up, she she grown up with just brothers, older brothers.
00;06;26;20 - 00;06;48;14
Tracey
And she was always in competition with them. She had to see who was smarter. She was one of the reasons she earned a PhD, and that's why she always had to have all the answers. And no one had. No one could have a different opinion to her because she was always right. And so, you know, I just sat with her for a little bit and let her know that the team knows that she's smart, we know she's intelligent.
00;06;48;15 - 00;07;13;08
Tracey
We know we have a PhD. She used to tell us every chance she has, but we know you're great at what you do and you're really articulate, and we need you here for those skills and for those, those talents. But you're coming across really as a lecturing professor rather than one of the team. So please stop talking down to your colleagues and start collaborating with them, because you'll find that you'll be surprised at how much smoother things will go.
00;07;13;11 - 00;07;28;23
Tracey
And if you can't do that, then I don't think you have a place on this team. And I think that was a little bit tough on her. So she was kind of there was a stunned silence for a couple of seconds, and then she actually surprised me because I expected her to fight back or to just shut down.
00;07;28;23 - 00;07;45;06
Tracey
And she said to me, you know, you're right. I've been trying so hard to be the most competent person in the room. I didn't realize how I was coming across to other people. And I promise I'm going to try to do to be better. So she got aware of the problem of what she was like. Your point about being angry, right?
00;07;45;08 - 00;08;07;03
Tracey
She understood now how others were receiving her and she did change. She really worked well with her team. She she calmed down a little in her competitiveness. Her attitude really improved so much that she became really well respected in the team. A few months later, it was actually it was it was kind of funny. She was chatting to me and she said, you know, it's going so much, so much better and I feel so much better.
00;08;07;03 - 00;08;25;20
Tracey
I feel like I've settled into the team. And she says, you know, when I first met you, you were so nice, I thought you'd be a pushover. But I learned the hard way that you may be kind, but that doesn't make you weak. So it was an interesting lesson for me as well as for her, is that I learned that from an authenticity point of view.
00;08;25;20 - 00;08;53;14
Tracey
I was showing up in what I believe was my most authentic way, and she was receiving it as weakness. But when I had to stand up and, you know, for the for the rest of the team and, you know, call her out on something, she realized that wasn't the case. So my lesson to to her and, you know, and to myself and to other leaders is to be kind to your team in an authentic way and not cowardly, because giving feedback isn't always easy.
00;08;53;15 - 00;09;13;15
Tracey
And it's really difficult when the feedback is perceived as negative, which most of it can be. But you have to tell people the truth they need to hear because that is the act of kindness. Protecting them and ourselves from those difficult conversations doesn't help them, and it's a disservice to them. And it's really it's really kind of chicken hearted, right?
00;09;13;20 - 00;09;37;12
Tracey
Because we're like, I don't want to get into that just uncomfortable space. But that, to me is one of the key aspects of authenticity that can really make a difference. When somebody knows the truth and they know that it's coming from a place of kindness and of wanting to help and wanting to make things better and partner, well, then I think there's a lot more space for them to step into that with you and partner a lot more effectively.
00;09;37;12 - 00;09;54;00
David
I liked the way you approached her with that. I have to address team members that cause problems as well and what I try not to do. In fact, I like the style because it reminds me where you basically told her, like, I recognize there's a problem and I'm going to let you know first. I care about you. Is something wrong?
00;09;54;00 - 00;10;15;01
David
Because I'm not going to assume that you're just this mean person. I'm not going to I'm not going to qualify it. I'm going to ask you first, and you're going to confirm for me what's true for you, and then we're going to address that. I also loved what you were talking about in terms of kindness. I think about that a lot myself too, because I do like I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings, but it's way more important to me for myself.
00;10;15;01 - 00;10;33;17
David
I would want somebody to tell me if I've heard the example of the difference between being nice and being kind, what you mentioned being weak. I've heard I've heard a position is like if somebody has something stuck on their teeth, like the nice thing to do is not make them embarrassed. The kind thing to do is to help them and let them know and make them aware.
00;10;33;18 - 00;10;54;18
Tracey
And it's how you do that which I think is so important, you know, not calling it out at the, at the, at the table in front of everybody else is is a good start doing it quietly in another room and having a conversation with them to make them aware is usually helpful. So yeah, I think that's the authenticity is is the how you go about doing and giving that that feedback and raising the awareness for the other person.
00;10;54;18 - 00;11;07;19
Tracey
And for some people, that's that's a really difficult thing to do, because it does mean being vulnerable, because sometimes it can come back at you when somebody feels defensive or is feeling feeling attacked in some way.
00;11;07;26 - 00;11;28;08
David
I actually had a mentor that was very it was the leader of business. He was a founder, typically very aggressive in how he communicated things, was, I guess, became a leader in a time where that was kind of normal. Or maybe it's normal now still, but like it was just more accepted, I suppose, then and saw as like, this is what a leader does.
00;11;28;10 - 00;11;45;08
David
So he would talk down to people and things like that. And the for me, I went into it knowing he was going to be that way, and I would typically call him on things that seem to be like not okay. But I was generally went into it knowing I'm not going to change exactly who you are. I'm not going to change how you see things.
00;11;45;08 - 00;12;03;21
David
So I'm going to do my best to try to, like, pick the nuggets out of like, what's the because you're you're right. A lot of times because you've got here by having successes. And so there are things to learn from you. So there are things that you can be right on. But later in life we became friends and I told them, man, you can be right and still deliver it very wrong.
00;12;03;23 - 00;12;27;09
David
You can like your delivery can be terrible and whether you're right or not will not matter because the person won't be available to receive it. You will not have even tried to make it where you're trying to reach the other person. You just want to get your checklist. Say the thing that upsets you, get it off your chest, which is not the same thing as being heard and delivering a message and actually doing the thing, which is being kind and bringing something to somebody.
00;12;27;09 - 00;12;47;21
David
Attention. Which is why I loved what you said, but you think that is something that is more common now because it's just generally understood. What you're describing almost sounds like all the things you say you set up to this point sounds like caring about the person first, and then figuring out how to reach the best end solution in that order.
00;12;47;21 - 00;13;04;10
David
And obviously, that's not always the order. Do you feel like that's more new? Like we're we're seeing that kind of leadership because of its effectiveness and research and all that, and that it's still maybe a struggle with leadership where that kind of is not adopted. What's your experience with your own clients?
00;13;04;10 - 00;13;33;26
Tracey
I think leaders still struggle with this. I think to a large extent, more leaders are intellectually at least aware of the need to practice leadership in this way. But for for a lot of leaders, especially, as you mentioned, those who have come up through the ranks and have been successful using the old way, if you like, or just are more, maybe less people minded and more task oriented.
00;13;33;26 - 00;13;52;26
Tracey
This also is a cultural thing, right? It can also be some cultures are more task orientated and some are more relationship orientated, so they naturally gravitate towards different styles. But you know, I still think a lot of leaders are struggling with this for two reasons. One is the pace of work is so frantic, then they're trying to do more with less.
00;13;52;26 - 00;14;19;27
Tracey
They're they're dealing with having to lay people off. They've got all kinds of challenges in the marketplace, and that puts them under a lot of pressure. And as I mentioned at the beginning, you know, it's really easy to do this well when things are going along swimmingly. There's no bumps in the road. Everything's fantastic. It's very easy to be to be kind and calm and measured when you don't need to be, but when you need to be in, things get a little bit rough.
00;14;19;29 - 00;14;42;16
Tracey
That's when we go back to our the muscle that we've built over time because it's familiar. It's what we know, it's what we trust, and it feels safer. And so for a lot of leaders, that's the struggle is despite the the environment and then the understanding of what's needed in the environment, it's a hard muscle to build. The good news is they can build that muscle.
00;14;42;16 - 00;15;09;29
Tracey
But it takes a lot of repetition, constantly being aware of how they're coming across, checking in, getting feedback, making sure that they're checking with others as to how they're impacting their abilities to do their jobs. Often that takes time out of the leaders just getting things done, and they don't necessarily see it as a valuable use of time in the context of the competing priorities that they have at the time.
00;15;09;29 - 00;15;11;15
Tracey
So I think it's still a struggle.
00;15;11;15 - 00;15;36;15
David
I have balanced that myself. I totally recognize it where I want to bring on a new team member, and they're trying to take on a role and your as a leader, your hope is that they just slot in, they understand things move along. But you know, if you don't take that time to properly onboard, if you're not like building that relationship and they're not getting they're not understanding more deeply how things work, which requires investment in them, then it always costs you more.
00;15;36;15 - 00;15;51;25
David
And then and so and I've seen that so often where like somebody hire somebody, they just assume based on your background, I shouldn't have to train you your experience. Like you shouldn't have to be immersed in my culture. You should just get it. And it's easier to fire you and start over and then not realize how much that actually costs.
00;15;51;25 - 00;15;55;24
David
In the end, I'm constantly churning because I'm not investing in the people.
00;15;55;25 - 00;16;13;29
Tracey
Not to mention the fact that whoever's left behind when they see this churn going on. There's a huge impact on on the team of Lake behind to pick up the slack and to take on all those additional tasks. And also, there's this whole notion of survivor's guilt and, you know, they're all waiting for the other shoe to drop.
00;16;14;02 - 00;16;41;29
Tracey
What is it? When's it my turn? So that that kind of volatile environment creates a lot of uncertainty and a definite withdrawing from wanting to experiment, try new things, be creative. Can come with ideas and suggestions. People withdraw into themselves, and they literally just hang on to the life raft, hoping that they can just survive the storm. And so it's an unfortunate, vicious cycle when leaders all into that trap.
00;16;42;01 - 00;17;04;18
David
I wish I could say, maybe even from my limited experience, that that was not very common, but it seems almost. I feel like it's more common than not, which is unfortunate. And I did want to. You mentioned leaders being sensitive of like, cultural nuances, and I wanted to actually talk to you about that. What practical steps can managers take to be more culturally aware and inclusive in their leadership styles?
00;17;04;18 - 00;17;25;15
Tracey
This is a minefield. Culture is so challenging and especially as we've become a global workforce now, it's even more challenging for leaders. But there's a couple of things that leaders can just think about. And these are obviously generalizations. So we wondered we want to make sure that we don't become guilty of stereotyping in search of some kind of cultural norm.
00;17;25;21 - 00;17;56;21
Tracey
And so knowing that every individual doesn't necessarily fit the norm, but that generally there are some cultural practices that can help. So one of those things that the leaders can do is just really learn about those cultural norms and practices. So for example, in individualistic culture, for example, like the American culture, you know, highlighting the personal achievements of an individual and the initiative of individuals and teams within the context of how it's impacting the teams is really important.
00;17;56;22 - 00;18;23;02
Tracey
Whereas in a largely more collective culture, and it's really more about the team first, individual second. Right? So maybe it's celebrating group wins, that kind of things, clarifying roles, decision making, who decides who's consulted and how inputs gathered. All of these things are important to understand, like how different cultures on the team do these things. Recognition is another area where it's through a cultural lens as well.
00;18;23;03 - 00;18;50;21
Tracey
People have different gratification styles and they have different preferences around how they want to be recognized and celebrated. Paying attention to those verbal and nonverbal cues like, you know, idioms, jargon, slang. A lot of that has to be avoided by leaders because it becomes challenging. I remember one of my clients was in a meeting with a group of Japanese executives, and he he started his conversation by saying, at the end of the day, we need to come up with a plan for X, Y, z.
00;18;50;21 - 00;18;59;11
Tracey
And they all said around the table going because they were literally saying, thinking. He was saying at the end of today, we need to have the plan. And that's.
00;18;59;11 - 00;19;00;06
David
Not what he was saying.
00;19;00;06 - 00;19;03;04
Tracey
He was saying, you know, ultimately we want to come up with a plan.
00;19;03;04 - 00;19;03;26
David
Together, right?
00;19;03;28 - 00;19;32;26
Tracey
So those kind of just just those paying attention to those nuances really important and adapting the communication style to match the audience. So important, so direct cultures like it. Very clear, concise, action oriented. Let's get it done. Task based stuff right. Indirect cultures. They want some context. First. They want little chit chat, some more relational framing. You know, maybe we could consider x, y, z versus go do this creating those safe channels for feedback as well.
00;19;32;27 - 00;19;54;08
Tracey
Super important. There are different power distance cultures. So you know different cultures perceive hierarchy in different ways. How are you enabling them to give you feedback if they don't necessarily feel like they can because you're, you know, a couple of rungs up on the ladder from them, are you enabling them to do it written verbally and through anonymous forms?
00;19;54;08 - 00;20;14;14
Tracey
Can they have a conversation with their peers, maybe encouraging teams to share their norms around how they even show up? Do they show up on time? Like a lot of teams in South America, time is really flexible. The meeting may not start on time, and if it does, there's a lot of chit chat before we get to the nursing nitty gritty, and that's part of the bonding of the team experience.
00;20;14;15 - 00;20;33;13
Tracey
So just being aware of these sort of things can help to co-design the expectations of how the team works together, and also make those who are from different cultures feel like they are considered and included. So these are just a few practical steps, just little things to consider as you go through your day to day with your team.
00;20;33;15 - 00;20;37;15
David
There is so much to unpack with what you just said.
00;20;37;18 - 00;20;48;27
Tracey
That the culture is a is a lot. I mean, I do a lot of culture workshops with with leaders and with teams, and you could talk about this for a week, five hours.
00;20;48;27 - 00;21;12;04
David
Interesting is everything you said at the end of it. I am certain it was all very, all true. And I felt like I knew no better how to navigate those that all the complexities than before. You said anything, and I think even worse, I think I'm even more now. I'm more aware of how much I should be paying attention to, and maybe feel even less prepared than I did before you said it.
00;21;12;07 - 00;21;23;27
Tracey
Well, I think the rule of thumb if you don't know, ask if a leader is not sure what somebody appreciates, what they don't, what you know, where they might be getting some friction in the system.
00;21;24;03 - 00;21;24;27
David
Right.
00;21;25;01 - 00;21;32;01
Tracey
Ask them. That's it's a it's the most it's the most easy way to find out what what you need to know.
00;21;32;06 - 00;21;58;17
David
I think that's true. Everybody I work with is remote. We don't get to benefit from being around each other. I know that there's lots of people that look at, like working remote as I can take it easy. And I have to explain to everybody, actually, to be successful, you have to work harder. You have to make up for the differences of proximity bias and not having offices to share and not being able to, like, develop a culture without taking an extra step for communicating because there's not as much body language all that.
00;21;58;17 - 00;22;15;20
David
So it's super important to me that my team feels comfortable enough to say things to me and I and to the degree of like also like you mentioned, if I ask, like, I want to know what's going to be the best way for you to receive information from me, things like that. Yeah, the struggle for me and is at times lots of my team.
00;22;15;21 - 00;22;40;00
David
As I mentioned to you before, lots of my team comes from South Africa and they they expressed like and I'm understanding them over time that there's a difference in how they perceive hierarchy and formality in conversation than what I'm comfortable with or I know how to support. And so what has what I've found is like, oh, you're the co-founder of business, and you're asking me like to open up to you?
00;22;40;02 - 00;22;59;05
David
I don't feel like there's less of a risk. I feel like I'm now on the spot to where it's a problem if I do or don't want to do so. Like, you're right. I think asking questions is the only way to really be able to get them to feel like they can tell you. But it's almost like I sometimes I've noticed I can't even get that to work.
00;22;59;05 - 00;23;19;12
David
So I sometimes I'll even notice, like I'm role playing. Like I will say, I will even describe like here's what I understand of of what you may be feeling in this situation. Please feel free to tell me if I'm wrong. You're probably concerned about how this will affect me and I like try to give examples I give, like in those situations I try to soften it, giving context and I'm still interested, but I almost like that's got to be like as far as I can go, right?
00;23;19;12 - 00;23;34;02
David
Because I can't read your mind and I don't know how to soften it anymore. The only other thing I know how to do is I explain that if you don't share these things with me, there are real consequences in our relationship. And I'm trying to protect us both from like, that collapse. But now it sounds like I'm almost threatening you, right?
00;23;34;03 - 00;23;52;15
David
So like like, how do I get them to be comfortable enough, especially with a very clear, very stark power dynamic? That's the thing. I think that makes people the least comfortable. And the only thing I know how to do is all the things you've said be human, maybe even show and explain. Like, here's some mistakes that you can make and here's mistakes I've made.
00;23;52;17 - 00;24;10;24
David
And the one other thing somebody recommended to me, and I'm really interested in what you think about this. Somebody recommended actually like people that are that uncomfortable, maybe role play with them and tell them you need them to give you negative feedback, critique you so they have to know what it's like to say that to somebody else. I've I've yet to do it.
00;24;10;24 - 00;24;14;16
David
I thought it was a brilliant idea and I've never done it. It's like myself right now.
00;24;14;17 - 00;24;36;05
Tracey
It's an interesting idea. I think it could be an interesting exercise for them to just flex that muscle. But I think you're also still going to end up with a hierarchy barrier to some extent. And so I think it's probably more around how you articulate the consequences of them not being transparent.
00;24;36;06 - 00;24;37;00
David
Right.
00;24;37;06 - 00;25;12;19
Tracey
And maybe it's it's more of a if you don't tell me that there's a problem with X, Y and Z, I can't support you and can't help partner with you to make it better and guide you and back you up. Right? Because really, I think that tone has to be one of support. Or if it's more of a feedback of something that's that's not going well, then really it's more of a, you know, I'm concerned because I want you to succeed and I know you're capable of succeeding, but I need you to step into the space with me and partner with me so that we can do it together.
00;25;12;19 - 00;25;36;17
Tracey
And the way to do that is to be a little more transparent. And this is why I need to give you this feedback about the repercussions of what's happening when this is not done the right way. And here's why. Again, back to that. The thinking behind decisions, right? Or the thinking behind feedback. Here's why I believe it has to be done this way, and then maybe asking them for their perspective.
00;25;36;19 - 00;25;56;11
Tracey
What do you think about that? So that they actually feel a sense of ownership versus saying, you know, this is wrong, just go do it differently type of thing. And so I think it's more of a conversational inviting them to participate in the process versus giving corrective feedback. And this of course, that's just been going on for a while, and you need to do it to get things done.
00;25;56;18 - 00;25;57;24
Tracey
It's a different story.
00;25;57;28 - 00;26;08;15
David
I really like the way you describe that. It almost is like, yes, I have to share this information, but I'm going to pull the curtains away so you can see The Wizard of Oz and not be afraid like it's just a person.
00;26;08;17 - 00;26;35;04
Tracey
Exactly, exactly. And affected that you in that conversation, express your confidence in their capability. Express your enthusiasm for them to, you know, continue to do what they're doing and to do it well. And your desire to help them to to do even better comes from a place of appreciation and value of the work that they're doing, versus correcting the things that they're not doing right.
00;26;35;04 - 00;26;55;21
David
I like that you mentioned confidence, like a leader who already recognizes the value of of the human being on the other side and wants to invest in them, could have the same exact you could say somebody who doesn't value that or doesn't maybe recognize the value of that, but maybe focus only on outcomes. They could have the same approach if they recognized.
00;26;55;21 - 00;27;09;27
David
I was thinking based on what you said, in terms of confidence, if I'm investing in their confidence, I'm literally developing a resource that's going to make everything more possible. And their confidence that to confidence my whole team. So if all I care about is output, investing them still the right thing to do?
00;27;09;28 - 00;27;36;17
Tracey
Absolutely. Yeah. Because yeah but but the output changes. Right. So the, the output becomes more balanced. Right. Because by, by you investing in them as a valuable member of the team. And somebody here that you're empowering to grow and to develop their skills and develop their capacity and their capability. They in turn will be able to see how that's done in order to be able to do it for their own teams as well.
00;27;36;18 - 00;27;46;04
Tracey
So it's almost a paying it forward kind of situation. So you're basically building the next generations, you know, succession planning at its best if you like.
00;27;46;04 - 00;28;02;19
David
I actually wanted because of all the different things you mentioned, all the variables in culture that you could be focused on. I wanted to ask you if there was just one quick tip you could give leaders about leading across cultures, what would that quick tip be? Given that there's obviously a hundred things you should be paying attention to?
00;28;02;20 - 00;28;07;17
David
What would be one that you'd say, this is probably going to be really effective if you started here?
00;28;07;19 - 00;28;30;17
Tracey
Yeah, I think it's I would say maybe reflect before reacting. So if, if you can pause and this is not only where culture is concerned but where is concerned, pause and replace your assumption with questions that can help. Like can you help me understand how this is usually handled in your culture? What is, you know, more comfortable for you?
00;28;30;18 - 00;28;53;06
Tracey
Where does this feel uncomfortable or or difficult so that that reflection before reacting, I think, is probably the one of the best things that leaders can do, because it stops us from putting those assumptions and those stereotypes on other people, because culture is a set of tendencies, not fixed traits. Right? So individual variations, still, they're not everyone from a culture fits the same mold.
00;28;53;06 - 00;29;04;29
Tracey
If you model that curiosity and ask the question, then you invite others to step into that space with you and you can be a little bit more aware. And also then maybe they can start to understand your culture a little more.
00;29;05;00 - 00;29;15;27
David
I love that approach, being like a Socratic first and like be a Socratic leader, where another resource for leaders is information and you limit your information if you don't ask questions.
00;29;15;28 - 00;29;35;03
Tracey
Absolutely. Yeah. So and I always yeah. So so yeah I always say to leaders like you know ask don't tell. And because so many leaders think that when they get to that leadership space, they have to be in a position to tell, to guide their teams, to get them going to, you know, help them overcome obstacles. But how would you handle this?
00;29;35;03 - 00;30;09;20
Tracey
Or how do you think we can do this differently? Or can we help me understand your perspective on this? How did you think that went? How do you think we could do differently? These kind of questions are much more powerful than the leaders saying what they think. You can obviously say what you think, but it's best to ask them first because it gives them a sense of ownership of the solution to the problem versus just deferring to the leader to solve the problem for them, which also then becomes a little bit of a dependency, and you start to get teams being a little comfortable with the leaders going to, you know, make those decisions and
00;30;09;20 - 00;30;13;18
Tracey
that's going to fix it. If I if I don't do it right anyway, so why bother?
00;30;13;20 - 00;30;38;22
David
I definitely recall, like the transition from being an operator to a leader, and that being one of the hardest things because I was looked to to make get the answers when I was the operator. Yeah. So that would be it was so hard for me that what made it easier for me when I was in a not just a leadership position, but when I actually owned a business, was by the time I was literally at the top, I recognized, like, I don't want to build something that's limited by my knowledge.
00;30;38;24 - 00;30;55;12
David
Like, I'm trying to get people surrounding me that are smarter than me at things like the whole point behind, I guess. What was it driving me to build? Something was I wanted to do something that was greater than I could do on my own, which means by default, me making a call without other people's inputs is super limited.
00;30;55;13 - 00;31;14;04
Tracey
Absolutely, absolutely. And also doesn't give them any sense of ownership. Right? So then it's just executing on a task that's been given to me and that's pretty much it. Whereas if you ask them how would you approach this? How do you think we should go, you know, move forward? Then they start to think about it in a different way.
00;31;14;04 - 00;31;35;09
Tracey
They start to have a sense of, oh, this is actually something where my inputs valued and my perspective is being is appreciated. The key, of course, for leaders when they ask those questions is if they go the other way to explain why they went the other way, because then otherwise people will start to think, well, you know, you keep asking you, but you never take my point of view.
00;31;35;11 - 00;31;49;15
Tracey
You never take do it my way. So what's the point? You don't always have to agree and have to go along with what other people say, but you have to at least explain why after having heard them. So that's a that's a super important part of communicating to.
00;31;49;19 - 00;32;07;24
David
Right. And I can and I've seen that happen in my myself and I've seen it happen in other people that lead businesses specifically during times that are like the higher the stakes and like the shorter the timeline, the more decisive you have to be. But it doesn't mean it's no longer important to keep the team like input and things like that.
00;32;07;24 - 00;32;23;00
David
You still just have to make a call at the end of the day. And I actually wanted to talk to you about like when there's those like challenging times for for leaders, like specifically like uncertain times. What role does communication play in helping teams stay grounded in times of uncertainty?
00;32;23;02 - 00;32;47;21
Tracey
It's critical at every time, but in times of uncertainty, it's probably the most important. Unfortunately, the thing that gets dropped the most when things are uncertain because, you know, leaders are human and they're also running at a million miles an hour. And as leaders, we tend to forget sometimes that we get so buried in the problem or the thing that we're trying to build or something we're trying to overcome, that we may.
00;32;47;23 - 00;33;09;07
Tracey
And from a thinking point of view, be so much further down the road than the team that now needs to come after you and execute or support or do whatever they have to do. They haven't been part of a lot of conversations. They haven't been, you know, seen a lot of the thinking that's gone on. So the leaders often feel like, oh my God, I got to go back and explain everything again.
00;33;09;07 - 00;33;30;21
Tracey
I've got to go back and I've got to talk to them again. My response is, yes, you do. And you have to do it over and over and over because people need to understand how important it is for you, but they also need to catch up to where you are so they can then walk with you. And so it's really critical for leaders to be very clear, particularly when times are uncertain.
00;33;30;22 - 00;33;49;05
Tracey
Nothing is ever certain, right? There's no such thing as certain times. But leaders who can help their teams stay focused in spite of the change give them a sense of purpose and direction to keep them moving. I often say, you know, you may not see the road all the way down, years in front. As a leader, you might just, you know, not have all the answers yet.
00;33;49;06 - 00;34;15;26
Tracey
That's okay. Your team needs to know what's the next step I need to take. Where do you need me to go from here? Keep them focused on so that the momentum stays because when they when they don't get that and there's there's a void of communication or information, it stalls them. They basically stop moving. And so that's when leaders have to make sure that they keep making the change, whatever it is that they're looking for the team to do, make it real.
00;34;15;27 - 00;34;34;20
Tracey
Help them to understand what they can expect. They need to address the frustrations of the team might have what what are their concerns? And they really have to make an environment to make change possible, especially when it's it's uncertain. So they can't be any good, you know, have any room for ambiguity. And they need to be very, very clear.
00;34;34;21 - 00;34;52;04
Tracey
Like what is what is changing. Set expectations for the team. What do they expect the team to do? What behaviors is a leader looking for to make that change real? Right. They need to focus on what's working well so the team can do more of that. They also need an anchor to hold on to, well, everything swirling around me.
00;34;52;04 - 00;35;23;26
Tracey
But this thing that we're doing is good and we want to do more of it. We'll hold on to that. They may then they don't feel as uncertain. You know, it's really important to keep the change positive and acknowledge the work the team is doing to embrace if it's a new way of working, a new process and, you know, product, whatever it is, you need to make sure that the team understands that what they're doing is really important, and then harvesting their insights and asking for their input at every stage of the process is so important.
00;35;23;27 - 00;35;44;14
Tracey
We just can also really work through communication to reduce the overwhelm the teams feel, you know, when there's a lot of changes going on, the leaders need to understand and help their teams to understand what matters most to be done. What is the vision, where are they heading towards, and then connect the changes that they want to make to that vision so that the team feels motivated?
00;35;44;14 - 00;36;06;03
Tracey
They can. Oh, I see, I get how what I'm doing or what I'm being asked to do is going to make a change down the road or is going to get us closer to the thing that we're aspiring to. So it's really important for leaders to be willing to take those uncomfortable conversations, potentially, and turn them into opportunities to understand what's what's happening, what's changing, what isn't.
00;36;06;04 - 00;36;26;12
Tracey
Where are we? What is the role that we're playing? Help them to establish those rules of engagement. What do we want to do in this in this new operating environment that's different so that as a team, we feel like we're working well together. What's standing in your way and sharing, being open and sharing some of the concerns, the worries and asking for their input.
00;36;26;13 - 00;36;38;12
Tracey
What do they think could be done differently to help, can really help them to take it from what's seen as a threat into an opportunity to really make a difference. So that's how you can shape the path for them.
00;36;38;12 - 00;36;53;16
David
What you described. Obviously there's lots of like variables and there's going to be lots of situations that are going to be different. And what you described to me, I feel like from a leader's perspective, it can be overwhelming to think about how to keep everybody on the same page, keeping one eye on the future, one eye in the present.
00;36;53;16 - 00;37;18;08
David
And one of the things that I keep coming back to and I keep, I want to do better myself. And I've seen people do very, very well in companies is develop like those key pillars of what's what's the values of the organization that we all help make decisions by. And even though all these situations are going to be different and the leaders going to try to figure out how to navigate all of these differently, I've seen so many people like, not want to spend the time building my mission vision values.
00;37;18;09 - 00;37;43;26
David
Like, what am I doing that for? I'm just trying to serve clients. And it's literally for these situations, one, so that you feel like you can get everybody behind the mission even when times are good, but specifically when times are bad, so that everybody knows how to operate in a crisis without you having to stop and have every conversation individually all the time, and have everybody only through like tribal knowledge, understand how we work together, not because we've actually established our mission, vision and values.
00;37;43;27 - 00;37;50;03
David
I'm curious what your thoughts are on that, given what you just described and how people are trying to navigate in those spaces?
00;37;50;05 - 00;38;09;02
Tracey
Yeah, I think that's probably the most crucial part is the the vision and values are go hand in hand with every communication that the leader has. So it's and again, it's one of those things that a lot of my clients are like, do I have to do this again? We talk about this and I'm like, yes, you talk about it at every meeting.
00;38;09;02 - 00;38;43;07
Tracey
You connect everything your team is doing. The what is the vision like? Everything that they're doing is leading to that vision is contributing to that vision in some way, helping them to see the impact that they're making and valuing the impact that they're making. But then the values as a how, how they're showing up for each other, for this, for their customers, for, for, you know, the organization as a whole, super important that everything that is reflected is reflected through the lens of those values, because those are the non-negotiables, right?
00;38;43;08 - 00;39;03;18
Tracey
These are the things we will or will not tolerate as a team. So it has to be something that the leader is constantly reinforcing. And it's just in language, constantly building it in to the way that the leader talks about everything that the team does and also about, you know, areas where maybe the team can do better. Like, how did we show up in that way?
00;39;03;22 - 00;39;21;14
Tracey
Did we fall down a little bit on that one? We weren't really you know what we what we strive to be. So let's see, how could we do that differently. So it's both just celebrate the good and it's to reflect and maybe adjust the opportunities where there might be some some gaps in the approach. And that's that's where the values are so important.
00;39;21;14 - 00;39;47;16
Tracey
And it's not just something that's on a set of slides somewhere. Every, you know, annual meeting. They trough them out again and everyone goes, oh, you know, it's got to be something that is the lifeblood of how every leader in the organization talks, how they how they reflect even on recognition. Right. So is it built into the way you recognize your team, the how they do things, not just what they do.
00;39;47;17 - 00;40;09;06
Tracey
And so again, the outputs are twofold. And that's really what needs to be measured, not just the activity which is the what they're doing, but the outcomes of that activity, which often is the how. And even if it wasn't not a success, we try something. It didn't work, but we gave it everything we had. Okay, now how do we pivot?
00;40;09;06 - 00;40;26;08
Tracey
And what do we learn from that experience that we can pivot firstly, and secondly, that we're willing to innovate and try new things and take a risk? Those are those are amazing values that are true to who we are as a team. So these are the way that that leaders can connect those things. And I think it's super important.
00;40;26;08 - 00;40;36;26
Tracey
It's one of those things that I think leaders don't necessarily feel like they have to invest as much time in as they do, and they have to invest a lot more time than it than they do rightly.
00;40;36;28 - 00;40;43;15
David
Yeah, either you get it, either you invest the time in the front end, or you're going to invest in the back end. You're going to spend that somewhere, that energy and.
00;40;43;16 - 00;40;44;11
Tracey
That.
00;40;44;14 - 00;41;10;22
David
You're going to spend it. And what you I feel like it fits really well with the theme of talking about like how to navigate different cultures and things like that. We're basically what we're talking about is the culture of a business. I've mentioned to you, like, for me, like because of how complex culture can be, I really try hard when I'm placing team members for my clients to really focus on their own culture and how to be inclusive of somebody still recognizing that the culture of the individual matters, and to be aware of that as much as possible.
00;41;10;23 - 00;41;32;10
David
I feel like it's really hard for me to figure out how to help my own clients, because I'm talking to them. I'm talking to all of my clients about this to some level. But for you, for example, you've got your own business. I can say for myself. Yes, I know it's important. I do develop these things. I care about them, we talk about them, but I am.
00;41;32;10 - 00;41;45;09
David
I know it's nowhere near as much as I should, or as much as I would advise my own clients to do. I know I'm not doing as well as I. It's easier for me to tell them, I know this is the thing you should do, sure, than it is for me to do it.
00;41;45;14 - 00;41;51;08
Tracey
Yeah, it's always the case though, right? It's easier to give somebody else the medicine than to take it yourself. Yes.
00;41;51;09 - 00;42;05;11
David
So I'm curious for your own business. Do you. Do you have your own mission? Vision? Values define culture for your business. Do you feel like you're doing exactly what you describe somebody else should be doing? And if so, then I'm embarrassed about what I said about myself just now.
00;42;05;12 - 00;42;38;11
Tracey
That's. Yes, I do have a mission, vision and values. What I don't have is necessarily a team to communicate that to all the time, but what I tend to do is I leverage a lot of that thinking when I'm communicating with my clients. So I think of it in perspective of, can I take my thinking around my approach to my stakeholders, my clients, my business as a whole, and help others and shine a light on how others could potentially be thinking about theirs?
00;42;38;11 - 00;43;05;04
Tracey
So and you know, if we knew when you are a business of one, it's more difficult to rally the troops if you like. But I do reflect on it regularly, and I always ask my clients after, you know, coaching programs or whether they felt that my values were reflected in their experience, because that feedback is really important, because often you might find that rule human.
00;43;05;05 - 00;43;39;05
Tracey
We often have a perception of how we're landing with others, and sometimes it's not the case. And so it's always helpful for me to know, like, did you feel like you were heard? Were your concerns, questions, and needs being heard? Did you feel like you got what you needed from from an information point of view? Do you understand the value of thinking about this, this kind of thing, and you feel like you were supported in that, in that space as you, you know, walk through that change because a lot of them, I'm actually facilitating the creation of the vision and the mission.
00;43;39;05 - 00;43;45;13
Tracey
That's a great opportunity for me to reflect on my own through that process. It's kind of like holding up a mirror, which is kind of fun.
00;43;45;14 - 00;44;07;00
David
Well, as as we're as we are self reflecting and coming towards the end of this episode, I did have a couple questions for you specifically about one, I'm very interested the kinds of research you do, resources you might be reading and consuming to make yourself better and better for your clients. Do you have any recommendations or anything you're reading right now that you feel is really interesting and you would recommend to someone?
00;44;07;01 - 00;44;30;07
Tracey
Funny enough, I'm shifting a lot of what my a lot of my work has been focused on mental wellbeing and resilience, as you know, and so I'm, I'm actually doing a lot of reading on physiological well-being to connect that with mental wellbeing. And so I'm actually reading a book right now called Why We Sleep. I can't remember who the author is.
00;44;30;09 - 00;44;32;29
Tracey
I think I haven't got it here somewhere.
00;44;33;02 - 00;44;37;04
David
Look at that bookshelf you got there. I'll be reading any number of things.
00;44;37;05 - 00;45;03;23
Tracey
That's just one of them. But it's a really interesting book about the physiological need for sleep and and the need to actually sleep better and do do a better job just from a focus, mental wellbeing and that kind of thing perspective. So I'm reading a lot about that. I'm doing a lot of research into leveraging the parasympathetic nervous system, the vagus nerve, a lot of that kind of thing.
00;45;03;24 - 00;45;22;18
Tracey
Mindfulness meditation. I already do that in a lot of my my sessions with my clients, in my a lot of my trainings. I incorporate a lot of these pieces, but I'm looking to do a bit more of that, the physical health and wellbeing side of the mental wellbeing. So that's kind of it's a fun it's a fun journey at the moment.
00;45;22;18 - 00;45;24;14
Tracey
I'm exploring a little bit of that.
00;45;24;14 - 00;45;29;00
David
That's great. And any works of your own that you would share with, with people that you'd like to talk about?
00;45;29;01 - 00;45;57;22
Tracey
Sure. As you may know, I wrote a book called Taming the Sabertooth Resilient Leadership and a Stressful World. And so it's a fun, easy read is really just a reflection on clients that I've worked with, my own experience as a leader in the corporate environment for a long time, working with and then and then obviously other leaders in industries across across the globe, some of the leadership lessons that I've learned through that experience, but also incorporated into that is the notion of resilience.
00;45;57;22 - 00;46;22;29
Tracey
And so I talk about sleeping well, breathing well, eating well, moving well. And so just, you know, things like forest bathing, you know, and how popular that's becoming and just getting out into nature and how important that can be to balance the the largely tech driven, high stress environment that a lot of leaders are in today. So that's that's a fun book.
00;46;22;29 - 00;46;30;29
Tracey
And I'd love if folks would try it and read it and hopefully get something good out of it to take away and try in the real world.
00;46;31;03 - 00;46;55;10
David
Well, it sounds like that book covers a lot for people to improve themselves. And I know that there's several topics you talked about there, but like, the last question I had for you would be if you had the ability to give yourself only one piece of advice, couldn't give yourself that entire book. But if you went back in time, maybe in your early 20s, and you had 60s to give yourself one piece of advice that you felt would be meaningful and would possibly change your life, what would that piece of advice be?
00;46;55;11 - 00;47;18;18
Tracey
I would say trust your instincts. So, so often I have in my life I have thought about, oh, I should do something, or I should think about something in a certain way. And then I put it aside and haven't done it. And it's always come back to bite me and I shit it. I should have done what I was thinking about doing, or I should have done it in a different way.
00;47;18;21 - 00;47;46;06
Tracey
So I think that, you know, that we all have this. I know they call it the gut instinct, right? And it's really, really true. The mind body, the mind gut connection is 100% valid. And so I think just learning to trust some of that instinctive understanding and empathy and knowledge that we have as human beings, so important. And I think if I, if I knew then what I know now, I would be much more confident in my capability to trust my own good.
00;47;46;08 - 00;48;10;19
David
Well, I think that's great. And obviously, building trust in your gut would take doing it from an early stage and doing it often and seeing the results. I think that's great advice for anybody, even not just the younger version of yourself. But I really appreciate. Thank you so much for the time with me today on the call, on the interview, telling me more about yourself and how you bring education and leadership growth to people that are really looking to advance themselves.
00;48;10;22 - 00;48;13;08
David
I really had a great time. Thank you again.
00;48;13;12 - 00;48;18;04
Tracey
Me too. I had a it was such a nice conversation. Thank you so much for having me. David, I appreciate it.
00;48;18;05 - 00;48;23;00
David
Thank you.
00;48;23;03 - 00;48;41;25
David
Hey, thanks for listening to this episode of Lead Smarter. And thank you to the partners and sponsors who believe in our mission to evolve ourselves, to elevate others. Speaking of elevating others, if you liked this episode, please be sure to like, follow, subscribe and share. It would mean a lot to me and the team that worked so hard behind the scenes, so we can all learn together.
00;48;41;28 - 00;48;48;12
David
And of course, thank you to the expert guests who kindly join us as generous guides on our journey to lead smarter.