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This podcast is an avenue to dialogue about the totality of the food experience. Everything from gardening, to preparing, to eating, to hospitality, to the Lord’s Table, with an eye toward how this act that we all have to engage in helps us experience the transformative power of God’s love and what it means to be human.
Episode 10--Chris Smith
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Andrew Camp: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Biggest Table. I am your host, Andrew Camp, and in this podcast, we explore the table, food, eating, and hospitality as an arena for experiencing God's love and our love for one another.
And today I'm excited to be joined by Chris Smith. Chris Smith is the founding editor of the Englewood Review of Books, which you can access at englewoodreview. org.
He and his wife, Jenny, have three adult children and are members of Englewood Christian Church on the urban near east side of Indianapolis. Chris is the co author of the award winning book, Slow Church, and author of several other books, including most recently, How the Body of Christ Talks, Recovering the Practice of Conversation in the Church.
Most of his latest writings end up on the Englewood Reviews sub stack. Which you can find at the conversationallife. substack. com.
Thanks for joining me today, Chris.
Chris Smith: Hey, thanks for having me, Andrew.
Andrew Camp: Yeah, no, always have enjoyed your work. And so I'm excited, [00:01:00] um, to, to explore food and conversation, um, you know, as we are entering into this time.
And so to begin us just curious, what role has food played in your life, uh, growing up and as an adult? Um, yeah. How would you characterize your relationship to food?
Chris Smith: Well, that's a great question. Um, a big question, but I could spend an hour or more just talking about that. But, uh, but to keep it brief, I mean, I've always enjoyed food.
Um, my mom was a good cook. My grandparents, uh, had a family farm and, uh, and kind of through, through spending summers on their farm really kind of had an opportunity to see a lot of different sides of, um, of agriculture and just that sort of intimate connection with, uh, food and land. [00:02:00] And that certainly has stuck with me, uh, through the years.
Um, yeah, I mean, I think maybe something that we could talk about, but something more recent, I guess, is that probably over the last decade or so, probably about a decade ago, a little less than a decade ago, um, I had become really unhealthy, uh, in the ways that I was eating, just not paying attention to what I was eating and just eating what I wanted to eat.
Uh, and eventually in a person's life, that'll catch up to them and it caught up to me and I was fairly significantly overweight and. Um, yeah, and since, so over the last decade, I've been, I mean, I never really liked dieting. I don't really like the idea of dieting, uh, and honestly, the science has showed that for a lot of people, it's not even particularly effective.
I mean, it's effective for helping them to lose weight, but not necessarily to be sustainable and keep that weight off. Um, so I've really tried to [00:03:00] kind of pursue a healthier eating habits, um, trying to eat more plant based, not, not. exclusively plant based, but but kind of leaning into a diet that is is more plant based and mostly eliminated red meat.
That those those sorts of things and kind of learning a lot along the way reading a lot of different folks. I mean from from Michael Pollan's kind of food rules and just kind of thinking about just kind of some basic Philosophy and basic principles of, um, what, what a healthy food is, um, kind of not less processed food, more, he talks about more foods from around the outside of the grocery store, uh, produce and, uh, uh, and so forth.
Um, So, uh, so yeah, again, I'm, I'm learning a lot along that [00:04:00] way and kind of more recently just within the last six months or so kind of been introduced to the work of, uh, Stephen Gundry, um, wrote a book called The Plant Paradox, uh, and he's saying that even though kind of Plant based eating is probably the best, uh, for most folks, uh, these days, uh, not all plants are created equal, and he kind of identifies, uh, foods, uh, called lectins, which is a protein, uh, that kind of, uh, interferes with the normal functioning of our gut bacteria and actually can, um, prompt, uh, cravings for, uh, carbohydrates and sugars and, um, uh Yeah.
And also just kind of, uh, help or inhibit the healthy functioning of our, of our stomachs and which has a lot of kind of, uh, effects. So anyway, all that, uh, yeah. So, uh, so kind of been learning a lot and still kind of [00:05:00] learning a lot about, um, about eating and, uh, and, but, but really all the way through. Uh, and part of the journey of learning to eat more healthfully over the last eight to ten years or whatever, uh, has really been driven by the fact that the, the reality that I love to eat and I don't, I don't want to be miserable eating.
Uh, I want to eat in ways that are more healthful, but, but try to, try to do that in ways that I still, uh, really enjoy. Uh, the foods I'm eating, um, so, so that's kind of been, uh, a conversation of sorts, uh, of, uh, of, uh, trying things and, um, and reading, reading things and interacting with them and really trying to figure out what, what works for me and, um, what, what is most healthiest for, uh, For the life that I'm leading a life, which work wise is fairly sedentary, but but I'm also [00:06:00] a runner and a distance coach for high school students.
Um, and, uh, so can't, uh, cut back too much on my calorie intake because I'm also burning a significant amount, um, in in those endeavors.
Andrew Camp: So as you reflect on this personal journey of 8 to 10 years, like, how has that been? Informed your life more holistically, because what I've appreciated about your work is you're not, you're not a siloed thinker.
You're you want to bring everything into conversation with sure. Each other.
Chris Smith: Sure. Yeah. I mean, I think there's a couple of things that really stand out there. That's a, again, an excellent question and a excellent, uh, I mean, you know, me for, for sure. For probably most of those 8 to 10 years, maybe longer. I can't remember, um, but, um, but yeah, a couple of things really stand out.
I mean, one is, I mean, we're always eating in community. Um, I mean, [00:07:00] again, uh, the slow food movement, I've learned a lot about that, about kind of the social dynamics around agriculture that brings the food to our table and eating closer to, to our homes, but also the, the social dynamics of, uh. Of the home and the shared table, uh, and so, uh, the, the.
experiments that I've had that I described with kind of learning to eat more healthfully have, have not been in a vacuum. They've always been, I mean, we, as part of a church community that shares life together pretty thickly. And I mean, we're always sharing meals together and, and there's a lot of diversity in our, in our congregation in terms of, uh, what people's, Preferred or necessary diets are and restrictions and preferences and all of those sorts of things.
And, and that's really kind of helped, uh, kind of crack, crack my [00:08:00] tendency toward idealism. Um, and, and again, it's, it's a conversation you learn to try to, uh, how do I, how do I as, as a member of this community that is going to share meals together, how do I, um, Give and receive hospitality, um, and how do I learn to, to eat in ways that are helpful to me, but also, um, not, um, also, uh, loving and respectful toward my siblings here.
Um, so, so, and I mean, even, uh, I mean, my spouse has her own, uh, sort of, uh, kind of healthfully. And I mean, I won't. Talk about that here, but, but it's not the same, quite exactly the same. And it hasn't been on the exactly the same timetable as mine either. So what does it look like for, I mean, we're right now.
Within the last couple years, we've just become a kind of two person [00:09:00] household and, um, if we don't have anything else going on, we're going to eat together, um, and so, uh, what does it mean to, um, to have, to share meals together, uh, when you're maybe on a little bit different pages of kind of what, um, sorts of things you're eating, even if you are generally moving, moving in a similar direction.
So, so that's one thing that really stands out. Mm-Hmm. I mean, the other thing too is just, uh, and I've actually been writing a little bit about this week, this, this week. I'm working on a, a little book, uh, right now, which is kind of, uh, kind of out of the, the stream of what I've often been, uh, uh, writing thinking about, but it's kind of based, uh, in my coaching, um, and kind of thinking about, uh, athletic performance, uh, more holistically, uh, and thinking about the ways, um, that kind of, so many things.
I mean, regardless of what sport you're doing, uh, whether it's basketball or distance running or swimming or biking or whatever, soccer, um, I [00:10:00] mean, you're going to have your training, but you have so many other facets of life that really do affect your, your performance and your capacity to, to be able to train.
And certainly diet is part of that. Um, and, and so diet is connected to, to sleep. It's connected to breathing. Uh, it's connected to, um, to so many, so many facets of life. Uh, I mean, just connected to. Um, our emotional lives and just the amount of energy we have and the energy that we bring to the work that we do and to the relationships that we have.
Um, and, uh, so, I mean, part of, uh, I mean, a big part of learning to. To live more healthfully for me, I mean, it wasn't just that I could be a better person, uh, but it was that really particularly that sort of, well, I mean, the, the holistic sense, um, but, but particularly the sort of energy of it, just having, [00:11:00] having more energy, part of my kind of story with part of the impetus for, um, learning to, uh, eat and be more healthful, um, you know, was that my blood pressure was, uh, dangerously high, uh, and I didn't even know it probably for, for several years, um, before it was actually diagnosed.
Uh, and, um, and it meant, that meant that I, I mean, I would get winded going up a flight of stairs and I just didn't have as much energy, uh, at the end of the day or in the evenings, uh, even late afternoons. Um, and so part of the, the journey of learning to be more helpful, uh, in my eating has been a one of really trying to, To be able to have, have a little bit more energy, uh, for, for the work that I do and, um, and to be able to, uh, I mean, I mean, one of the kind of outgrowths of that, that journey is, is this sort of coaching that I've been doing for about three years now at the, the high school in our neighborhood.[00:12:00]
Andrew Camp: Um, and just want to. You said a lot. Um, there's some great points there, but but what I love to is it's trans, you know, you mentioned it's sort of transformed hospitality for you for the giving and the receiving, which I'm sure the receiving aspect might be harder because you can't control when you're on the receiving end of hospitality.
You're not in a place of control. Sure. You know what happens or what you put in your body at times. Um, Um, You know, and so how, how has that factored in as you think about community, like how do you receive hospitality as one who is entering into more of a plant based diet? Um,
Chris Smith: you know, sure. No, again, like I said, I'm not a vegan.
Um, uh, and I, I mean, again, it's kind of a trajectory, I guess, uh, in terms of, uh, plant based eating, but, um, but yeah, I mean, I think, yeah, I mean, you do, you, [00:13:00] you eat, um, what is served to you. I mean, maybe sometimes. Um, you say no thank you if it's something that, uh, or you just eat small por smaller portions, uh, and, um, and maybe, uh, have a snack afterwards or something.
Um, so yeah, I mean, yeah, it's, it's tricky. Again, I'm, I mean, I really, I really value Uh, the, the opportunity to, to give and receive hospitality and, and, and just generally my personality is not, um, one of being, uh, legalistic, uh, in any way, or in many ways, um, there probably are things that I'm legalistic about, I guess, uh, but, uh, as we all are, uh, but, uh, But yeah, I mean, I think just, uh, uh, learning to, to be gracious and to be flexible and, [00:14:00] um, and to, and to find ways that kind of fit with, uh, your, your needs and, and I mean, graciously, a lot of folks that we work with.
share meals with fairly regularly. I mean, they know, they know the journey that I'm on. They know that I don't eat, I don't very often eat red meat. Um, and I mean, that's kind of one of the main ones. Um, but, uh, but yeah, and they, they actually, Find ways to to accommodate that. I mean again, that's that's all conversations.
Yeah. I mean obviously if I'm meeting with somebody new in their home or or whatever I'm gonna extend more grace just because they don't really know the journey that I'm on. They don't know who I am but But yeah, so so that's yeah, it's it's tricky [00:15:00] Um, but, uh, but I, I mean, I think there's some, some wisdom in just kind of learning to eat the things that are set before you, um, and again, you don't, don't necessarily have to like them and you don't have to, uh, kind of eat huge, huge portions of them.
Um, but, uh, but yeah, I mean, I think part of the, the nature of, of receiving hospitality is, um, is, uh, Being willing, being willing to be a little bit adventurous and a little bit, uh, a little bit flexible in terms of what, what you're eating, even if it's not necessarily things that you would prefer to eat.
Andrew Camp: No, and, um, it all comes back to sort of a conversation, you know, conversation with your body, conversation with your community. Um, you know, and a lot
Chris Smith: of what Conversation with Science in some sense in, uh, what, uh, what do we know about how our bodies function and what, what is [00:16:00] best, uh, for our bodies. And again, again, within all the sorts of particularities of kind of the demands that we put on our bodies by, by our work and our recreational activities and our family commitments and all of those sorts of things.
Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. Yeah. And so conversation has obviously, you know, the. The ideas of conversation are near and dear to your work, which you've done. You know, so like As you think about slow church, you know, and, um, that thought, you know, I was just looking back, the book came out 10 years ago, which sort of models, which is crazy.
It's yeah, but it's absolutely crazy. Um, you know, but slow church is a conversation, you know, that you, you and your co author john wanted to participate in. And so, like, what What's the vision behind Slow Church?
Chris Smith: Yeah, it's, um, Slow Church was [00:17:00] inspired by the slow food movements, um, but really, um, trying to find a way of being church, um, that is centered around the table, of course, a very Eucharistic sort of sense, um, but particularly, Um, uh, in the, the sort, the economy of sharing that happens around the table, uh, sharing of food, sharing of story, sharing of our lives, sharing of other resources, uh, that happens through conversations at the table.
So that's, that's the gist of it fundamentally. And I've had had some conversations with. uh, Andy Root about this. I actually did a podcast episode with Andy and John Swinton. Um, I was a little bit frustrated, uh, that Andy, uh, doesn't seemingly know what slow food is, or doesn't have a deep understanding of the slow food movement, um, and in such, uh, He's pretty critical of the idea of slow church.
Um, in his book, I'm [00:18:00] trying to look at the congregation in the secular age. He actually has a chapter on that. I'm sure you're familiar with that chapter as well. Um, but, um, because slow church and slow food for that matter, isn't really about slowness as we think of slowness. It is actually about, uh, what's the German sociologist Hartmut Rosa.
Uh, calls, uh, resonance and I didn't, when we wrote slow church, I didn't have access to Rosa's work. It hadn't been translated in English yet. Um, but, um, but this notion of, of resonance of really kind of, um, finding, finding one's place, finding, um, uh, abundant life. We might talk about in terms of a language that's biblical.
Um, Uh, is, is what Slow Church is about, and in order to find that abundant life, we have to slow down a bit, uh, because, uh, moving so fast, as our culture [00:19:00] moves so fast, uh, Rosa, one of Rosa's, uh, big things, I mean, is, is the acceleration of society. Um, and, uh, and he, he does a wonderful book, Hijab is kind of his landmark work, it's a book called Social Acceleration.
Um, For listeners that aren't familiar with that, I would encourage you to, to check that out. Uh, Andy Root is probably, is probably the biggest kind of theological interpreter of Rose's work. Uh, and certainly the Congregation in a Secular Age, the book that I was mentioning earlier, um, is, is a great, uh, sort of introduction to that.
Um, but, but Andy and I had a great conversation about that. Um, and I really tried to, uh, Uh, to to needle him a bit. Um, that really kind of what so church was about was about residents about this kind of thing. That's central to kind of what he was encouraging congregations to, uh, to, to seek. So, so, yeah, it's about, uh.
I mean, certainly the, the gospel of Jesus is about [00:20:00] abundant life, or I mean, oftentimes the, the phrase eternal life, uh, the Greek word for that, uh, which I'm drawing a blank on right now at the top of my head, but, but is more, is as much qualitative as it is quantitative, um, and could often be in many cases in the New Testament could be translated abundant life.
Um, and how do we find that abundant, that abundant life stems from our. The relationships that we have in community, and that's what we very intentionally chose the language of slow church, uh, not, uh, slow faith or slow Christianity or anything like that, but slow church, because we really wanted to emphasize that this is something that is experienced in community, uh, in relationship, kind of, as we already talked about when we're talking about hospitality, um, that it's not just, certainly we experience it personally, but we experience it Personally within the context of of a [00:21:00] community,
Andrew Camp: you know, and at once, you know, the slow church ideas and the slow food movement.
It's it's universal, but very particular and you guys hammer down on that of like, okay, there's some universal ideas that need to be expressed particularly versus a McDonald's McDonald ization of the church where it's copycat or, you know, Uh, it all looks the same, uh,
you
Chris Smith: know, I'm increasingly skeptical of, of universals.
Um, I mean, other than perhaps some really basic things like, uh, like God's creation, um, uh, the, the very fact that, that God created, um, but, but I'm constantly, uh, reminded of the rich diversity of, of what God has created and, and really skeptical of the damage and wary of the damage we do when we really try to, to force things into, to universal [00:22:00] principles.
Um, so, so if there is a universal, universal principle, uh, in, in slow church, it's, it's being critical of kind of the, the sort of, um, One size fits all, uh, universal ways that we've, uh, received things in, in the modern age, the last 500 years or so, um, and, and, uh, being critical of, of that mentality and critical of all the sorts of damage it's done kind of racially, economically, uh, ecologically, of course, um, so, um, so yeah, but, but really, um, Beginning to, uh, to make sense of the world and make sense of life from, from the particular bodies that we have in the particular.
Social bodies that were part of particular communities that we belong to, uh, the church and the home and the [00:23:00] neighborhood, uh, most, uh, especially, um, and then, then kind of think, thinking and imagining the world outward from there, rather than kind of, uh, starting. From the, the top down and kind of universal conceptions of what, what the world is.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. So it's starting with the particulars of your community.
Chris Smith: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, even, even more so than that, starting with the particulars of, of your own body and your own sort of histories that, that you have from your, Genetics and epigenetics and your, your parents and the places where, where they lived in the sort of, um, ethnic and genetic, uh, sorts of histories that, uh, were united to create, create you as a particular person.
Yeah. And then, of course, I mean, working outward from [00:24:00] there, I mean, obviously already we're starting to look at communities, uh, by, by the communities, uh, even the genetic, uh, familial communities that were embedded in.
Andrew Camp: I never thought about that of like, what story do I bring to the community? You know, and what's
Chris Smith: sure.
No, absolutely. And again, I think I play with that a little bit more and how the body of Christ talks, right? Um, because I mean, I love, I love, I mean, you, you're very familiar with that book, but I love, I love the image of the body and particularly the way that it holds, holds intention and holds together.
Um, the, the particular of, Unique body parts that have unique functions, um, but, but they don't function apart from the body, uh, they only function, they function in and for, for the health and well being of the body. And if they don't, if they're not functioning, uh, I mean, they necessarily function in the body, but if they're not functioning for the body, Uh, then, [00:25:00] then you have a serious problem.
Uh, you have serious disease and that happens. That's in a sense what cancer is. You have cells, uh, that are, are destroying other cells. Um, and, and it's deadly. Um, uh, so, uh, so yeah, that's, uh, I mean, I think, I think too often it's really easy and I think maybe there were times when I was writing slow church and maybe even more recently than that, uh, that it's really easy to get kind of let the pendulum swing too far into the, the social, uh, and really kind of lose us, lose the, the reality of that we are unique persons, uh, created by God and it.
Gifted distinctively and personally, uh, by God and, and it's not just to make me a better person, um, and it's not for me to get as rich as I can. And, uh, suck the marrow out of life as it were. But, [00:26:00] um, but it's for. Uh, it's to be shared and, uh, uh, to be shared for the, the health and well being of, and the flourishing of the communities to which we belong, uh, and to be, um, to be shared, to be shared generously.
Andrew Camp: No. And, um, you and I were just talking about Kathy Kahn's book, Loving Disagreement.
Chris Smith: Sure. Absolutely. You know, it reviews book of the year for 2023. Yeah. And
Andrew Camp: it was a great book. You know, she talked, she and Matt, her coauthor talked a lot about the fact
Chris Smith: right here on my desk. Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Um, you know, just that the fruit of the spirit is for the sake of the community.
You know, we're not, it's not for me to grow. Um, but that as I get to know my body, it's, it's for the sake of the community and to, to move closer into proximity. With others, um, you know, and so what does what role does proximity then begin to play? Um, In in live. [00:27:00]
Chris Smith: Sure. Yeah. I mean, again, uh, I mean, uh, we were kind of saying I didn't use the word earlier, but I mean, I'm a localist.
I'm, I'm, uh, kind of kind of what we described of kind of, uh, moving, moving outward from our bodies into communities is fundamentally a way of proximity, uh, of, of learning to pay attention to, uh, what, what is closest at hand, um, and, and trying to see the world from, from that perspective, uh, what, instead of kind of, I'm just kind of thinking sociopolitically here, um, but instead of kind of taking up issues in the abstract because they seem like good ideas, I mean, that's certainly well intentioned But, but really Uh, kind of, I mean, looking at that, at my particular community and what are, what are the challenges that my community faces, what are the [00:28:00] injustices, uh, that my neighbors, uh, or even myself, maybe in some cases, um, are, are, uh, laboring under and, and how do we, how do we begin to actually address those, those real issues, um, in the, uh, in the community?
The concrete particularity of them, not, not just kind of as abstract, uh, sorts of, of issues, uh, of political issues or whatever, um, but, but really trying to, um, engage, uh, on the basis of, um, real, real injustices that are having detrimental effects on, on real bodies. No,
Andrew Camp: for sure. Yeah. Cause again, um, you know.
In Loving Disagreement, they talk that shalom is for everyone, you know, and not just for the select few, and that might mean, as we address the particular injustices of a community, it's, it's [00:29:00] giving up or sacrificing, you know, my power, my, my own self. For the good of the community versus just abstract
Chris Smith: thoughts.
Sure. Yeah. I mean, I think that's a problem that we have in the American democratic system and particularly kind of since it's been given rise to by kind of modern European liberalism individualism, um, that our tendency is to, uh, to enter into uh, Uh, our democratic republic, um, uh, on the basis of what's, what's best for me.
Um, and I mean, that's not, that's not the gospel. Um, uh, and, uh, and, but rather it's, uh, what's, what's best for, for. the communities that [00:30:00] I'm embedded. Um, and, and as Wendell Berry, uh, likes to say, I, I'm, I'm gonna totally butcher, but there's one of his poems where he talks about, um, kind of the desires that we have, uh, for our community.
Uh, we can see that other people have similar desires for their communities. Um, even if Kind of the ways that we pursue them and, um, and kind of the ends that those desires lead to maybe, may be different in different places, but we can at least appreciate that, um, the desires that we have for our community may be, um, similar to, uh, or, uh, in line with the fact that other people in other places have, have desires for their communities, hopes and, and dreams and visions.
Andrew Camp: Well, no, and then even, you know, even within one's own community, there are different, there can be different and competing visions of flourishing or what does [00:31:00] flourishing look like. And that requires the conversation to ensue. And conversation in today's culture feels hard to say the least, right? Like, how do we begin to have a conversation then as a community for what our community can and possibly look like
Chris Smith: sure. I mean, I think the place to start is the reality that however poorly we're doing it Almost in almost every church community. There are conversations already happening There are spaces in which people people do talk together And again, it may not be very always very healthy healthy kind of conversations but there are Sunday school classes and committee meetings and, uh, board meetings and, um, and all of those sorts of things, uh, small groups, um, all those sorts of things where people are already having [00:32:00] conversations.
And, and I think the place to start is really kind of leaning into those and recognizing that we are having conversations there. And how do we, how do we do that in ways that, um, that are more healthy? And particularly, I think one of the elements of health, um, that we're trying Often not very attentive to is the dynamics of hierarchy and in terms of kind of, and I mean, there's dynamics of power, obviously related to hierarchy and, um, who, um, who gets to have a say, uh, at the table and, uh, who, who are the people that are listened to and, um, whose voices are heard.
Given more preference than others. I mean, those sorts of dynamics are, are really difficult. Um, and they're shaped by, by lots of, of factors. Um, I mean, including. [00:33:00] Race and education and perceived leadership and maybe actual, uh, titles of leadership. Um, and, uh, and I mean, yeah, so for us at Englewood, uh, kind of in our practices of conversation, a big part of that has really been.
Trying to unmask the desires that we have for hierarchy and, uh, I don't know that kind of, I mean, I think that's still a work in progress. I don't know that we've done it perfectly, but, but we really have become attentive over the years, um, to, um. Some of the, some of the power dynamics and really seeing conversation as a way that we can, can learn to be together in less hierarchical sorts of ways, um, and learn to kind of make decisions more in ways that are more like consensus, um, and not just kind of, uh, [00:34:00] more heavily authoritarian sorts of, of decisions and discernments.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. No, the, the place of hierarchy, you know, and I think a lot of times people come to conversation thinking they have the answers versus a listening posture. Absolutely. Um, you know, and so how, how do we begin to even listen? Well, to, to those voices, you know, and I think of myself, you know, I'm a white middle class male, you know, so I'm the, at times the poster boy of privilege, you know, like, sure.
But, um, how do, how do we in positions of power begin to listen well to our community? Versus coming in with a heavy hand thinking we have all the answers.
Chris Smith: Sure. I mean, I think, I think a big part of that is, I mean, creating habits of listening to people on the margins of our community and really [00:35:00] listening, uh, not just kind of, uh, checking a box, um, which unfortunately a lot of kind of, uh, practices of diversity and inclusion, um, Tend to, uh, get boiled down to, Oh, we've got to, to, to do that.
We see this a lot in community development sorts of worlds, um, that, uh, whatever community development organization is, is planning, planning, uh, a project running, planning, uh, a residential project or a mixed use project. Uh, and community listening is, is kind of part of the process, but often, so often it becomes just kind of a box to check and there's not really listening to the community.
It's just, we gave, we gave folks an opportunity to have their say, uh, but it wasn't really kind of, and then we did what we wanted to do. It's often the kind of follow up unspoken, often unspoken sort of follow up to that. [00:36:00] Um, but, but really, um, Building, building friendships, uh, with, with people for whatever reason that are on the margins of, margins of our faith communities, margins of our neighborhoods, um.
Uh, whether that's economically or, um, uh,
gender wise or, um, racially, ethnically, um, all, all of those sorts of things, um, uh, putting, putting our places, putting ourselves in places, uh, where we can, can really listen and learn over, over the long haul and really build, build meaningful, meaningful friendships, um, uh, yeah. And, and that, those sorts of habits, uh, will, uh, will bring those, uh, with us when we, um, when we have conversations in our churches.
Um,
Andrew Camp: Yeah. And so as we [00:37:00] do this, then what role can the table and even food and hospitality, like, and not just as a metaphor, you know, but like, the actual table, like, how can that be a great equalizer? Um, in this process.
Chris Smith: Sure. Yeah. I mean, that's a great question. Um, certainly being willing, as we were talking earlier about receiving hospitality, being willing to, to sit at somebody's table and to, um, to have them serve you the foods that, that are meaningful to them and meaningful to.
The sorts of families and places and cultures that they have come from, um, and, and is, is a really meaningful, meaningful sort of, uh, it built some pretty strong bonds, um, and really goes a long way to, um, cultivating, uh, cultivating friendships. [00:38:00] Um, yeah, and again, I mean, obviously, I mean, the table. Itself also, as kind of the slow food movement has reminded us, I mean, it is a place where, where, where conversations happen, uh, where, um, we really have an opportunity, uh, people are a little bit more, more relaxed, uh, and, um, uh, and are able to, to share, I mean, obviously the food that is shared is, is a part of, uh, of our persons and our culture that, that we're sharing together.
Um, But, uh, but, but we also have opportunities to, to share stories and to share, um, share perspectives, uh, and, uh, to, uh, to really, um, to, to learn, to learn from one another. I think the, we talk in the Slow Church book a bit about just kind of the. The nature in the kind of the economics section of the book, [00:39:00] we talk about kind of economies work best when there's a sort of mutuality.
Um, uh, where there's, as we said, kind of earlier when we're talking about hospitality, both, both a giving and a receiving, but oftentimes in order for you to get to that point of, of mutuality, of being able to give and receive oftentimes those of us like. Like myself or yourself, um, those that are kind of perceived, uh, to be, to have some degree of cultural power oftentimes, um, have to be on the, the receiving end, uh, for a while, the listening end, uh, the attentive end, uh, in order to be able to cultivate the sort of trust that allows trust is a big part of certainly for us.
You probably heard me say that, say this many times over the years. Um, but the, the best fruits of our. Practices of conversation here in Englewood is that we are, we are learning. To and growing in our trust of one another. Um, and, [00:40:00] um, and it's our trust of one another that really allows us to have these sorts of economies where we're able to, to, to really listen to one another and to really share, share with one another, um, across, across some, some significant divides, uh, political divides, economic divides, you know, No,
Andrew Camp: and it does take time and it is that posture of receptivity that, um, I think I know for myself, uh, and as I think about church, like that we need to adopt more, you know, we want to give hospitality to others, you know, um, whereas are we willing to step into another person's home and receive what they have to offer as a guest versus always trying to be a host.
Chris Smith: Sure. Sure. There's a lot to learn from Jesus there that Jesus oftentimes, I mean, Jesus was, was without a home. Yeah. He had no place to [00:41:00] lay. So almost anytime you see Jesus eating a meal, he's eating in somebody else's house. And certainly now a lot of those folks are Jewish and there's fairly, there, there's all kinds of dietary laws that they kind of mostly adhered to.
And, um, and that would. Have a bit of a uniformity toward the the sort of food sorts of foods that were served but but I'm sure there was there was some diversity and some Unexpected sorts of thing because Jesus did eat with a lot of a wide economic variety, and I'm sure across that economic diversity there was A variety of, of quality of foods, uh, uh, that, that he was served, um, and, um, as best we can tell from the gospel narratives, um, I mean, Jesus, Jesus ate, uh, What was served and, uh, people, uh, appreciated, uh, uh, and, and trusted [00:42:00] him and, uh, and really, uh, respected him, uh, because of that sort of receptivity of, uh, being able to kind of receive the hospitality that they offered to him.
Andrew Camp: No, and, and the personhood of the person, um, that he received it from, I think seemed to matter. Oh, absolutely. Because that's got him in trouble, isn't it? What he ate, but who he ate with, you know, and, um, becoming ritually unclean, you know, he would have been ritually unclean. I think probably 99 to 100 percent of his life, uh, you know, which had huge issues in sick, you know, played, would have played a major role in how he could participate.
in his religious culture.
Chris Smith: Yeah, I think one of the, one of the things I've really appreciated, uh, that I think I've learned from Walter Brueggemann's work, uh, particularly with, uh, I mean, as an Old Testament scholar and kind of looking at kind of ancient Israelite, uh, [00:43:00] culture, uh, was the tension between the dis And tension, not necessarily in a helpful way, uh, between kind of purity and neighborliness.
Um, and that, uh, I mean, certainly we kind of see that kind of played out, uh, in Jesus interactions with, with the Pharisees, uh, and that the Pharisees were kind of really, uh, driven by, by visions of, of purity. Um, and, uh, and certainly. It's not difficult to see the ways that a lot of folks today are kind of driven by, by unhelpful visions of, of purity, uh, of, of whiteness and, mm-hmm.
purity of what America is assumed to be. Um, yeah. Uh, for instance. Um, but, but really, uh, neighborliness for bru, bru and neighborliness as he kind of sees him through the, [00:44:00] through the person of Jesus is, is really about. Is a way of talking about kind of what, what we've already said of, of being willing to, to, to receive hospitality and to eventually to enter into this sort of friendship in which, um, there is a mutuality of, of, of giving and receiving, um, and care, care for, for, uh, one another that, that goes both ways and really kind of respects the, of, The unique, uh, source of personhood of, of all, all those involved.
Andrew Camp: Yeah, you know, and tagging on to what you said, it's not being afraid of contamination, you know, like we get, yeah, purity leads to an idea that we're going to be contaminated by the other, um, or as Jesus shows us, like his presence is, is stronger. [00:45:00] Sure. You know, um, and will enable more love, you know, and more neighborliness when we get past that fear of the other.
Chris Smith: And I think just kind of to think kind of, I'm not an expert on this, but I kind of think sociologically and ecologically about kind of all the ways that we're kind of contaminated already, uh, just by, by exposure to. To pollution in the air and pollution in the water and produce pollution and land and, uh, unhealthy sorts of foods.
I think I think a lot of our conceptions of purity purity are really. Uh, grounded in delusions, uh, grounded in, um, uh, uh, misinformation and false, false conceptions of, uh, what, what the world is. [00:46:00] Um, so, so yeah, I mean, I think we, we are, we live in a broken world and we participate in a broken world and, um, And, and, well, yes, we should be kind of, uh, seeking, seeking justice in that world.
Um, I mean, oftentimes, as we've said, for, for the sake of hospitality, um, there are going to be ways that we might kind of contaminate our ideals.
Andrew Camp: And not to be, again, to enter into the mess, you know, and I think that's a lot of your work is, is grounded in this idea that we have to be willing to enter into the mess of life, you know, and, you know, even as you talk about the body, like, you know, when our body is out of whack, you know, or if we're in disease.
Sometimes getting better involves a lot of pain and mess before there is health and flourishing.
Chris Smith: Sure. I mean, even our conceptions of our [00:47:00] bodies are much more complex and messy than we think. I mean, we think we have this, this skin that, that surrounds our bodies and that it's a membrane. But, well, I mean, membrane is probably a better word for it because all kinds of substances and, uh, Are, are coming and going and we really exist as kind of a net, this kind of network of, uh, of cells that, um, are inherited and shaped by, by our environment as well as our genetics and uh, By those people in close proximity to us.
And I mean, certainly we learned a lot about that, uh, during the COVID 19 pandemic, uh, and the, the effects of not, uh, paying attention to, to the ways that, uh, Diseased cells, uh, kind of infiltrate our bodies and the [00:48:00] effect, the kind of, uh, large scale effects, uh, that that can have, uh, but yeah, but we're always, uh, and it's, it's been proven as a bit of a myth, um, but just kind of this notion that kind of all of the cells in our bodies kind of regenerate, uh, within our bodies.
Some period of time, some people say seven years sometimes, but, but the cells in our bodies are always kind of dying and, and being replaced, uh, and, uh, and that's, uh, again, kind of a part of the, the messiness of, of who we are, and even as we kind of think about kind of what, what a body is, what a person is, um, uh, it's not I mean, just from a, from a biological level, it's not nearly as neat as we, um, as we might imagine it to be.
And so, and that's kind of what leads me to, to really emphasize that, that we, we are conversational bodies, the title of. How the body of [00:49:00] Christ talks at one time was going to be a conversational bodies. My publisher didn't like that quite as well. They thought it was a little bit harder to wrap your mind around.
Um, but, uh, but this, the sense that, um, the sort of social life that we should have, uh, as conversational is really shaped by, by our existence as, um, bodies that are always, always in flux and always, um, Existing in a sort of conversation, not only the sort of familiar conversation that's happening at the neurological level, but the sort of kind of cellular conversation of kind of cells entering our body and some of them needing to be resisted and some of them actually being quite, quite healthful for us, so.
Andrew Camp: Well, I think we could keep on talking for a long time all about this. No, sure. Sure. We could. Um, but as we begin to think about wrapping up, um, the question I've enjoyed talking to other people about and asking and hearing their point is this [00:50:00] question of, um, What is the story you want the church to tell?
Chris Smith: Yeah, that's a good question. Um,
well, I'll answer it with a non answer, I think. Perfect. I think, particularly, one of the deepest temptations of our day is to, is the church or Christian people trying to Force our stories on the world. I mean, fundamentally, that's kind of the nature of Christian nationalism and which isn't a new thing.
It's basically kind of the latest incarnation of Christendom of kind of believing that Christianity. Needs to be in control, in control of the world at a large scale or smaller scales as well. [00:51:00] Um, so, uh, so yeah, I don't know. I mean, certainly, I guess, I mean, uh, I mean, if there is a story, I mean, it's kind of what you alluded to earlier that, um, that, I mean, God has created us as, unique human beings and loves us immensely, uh, in, in all of our uniqueness, uh, and, and the work, the sort of incarnational work that God has created us for is, is this sort of conversation of, of learning and learning to be with, uh, and to share life with, and to be in friendship and mutuality and an economy of care and sharing.
Uh, with, with those people closest to us, but, but not, uh, in a sort of tribalistic sort of way, but in a way that, um, [00:52:00] that kind of overflows, abundantly overflows our local communities, uh, to, to our cities and to the world at large. Um, so, so yeah, I mean, well, I'm a little bit hesitant about kind of the way stories are used at the present.
I mean, I guess there probably is, uh, a story, a story there, but it's, it's a, it's a different, a different sort of story. Um, it's a story about, uh, I mean, it's fundamentally a, a gospel story. Mm hmm.
Andrew Camp: And it, you know, you alluded to it, but it's instead of telling a story, it's listening to the story of your
Chris Smith: community.
Sure, sure. And yeah, and receiving the nature. I mean, I think again, kind of going back to this nature are to the notion that God really desires to, uh, to collaborate with humanity. I mean, that's the nature of incarnation. It's [00:53:00] the nature of yeah. our identity as, as the church and as churches. Um, and, and that's I mean, I think fundamentally that's the posture that we carry into our neighborhoods, uh, that it's not we have everything figured out, it's that we want to work together and, and you are, you, you, our neighbors are, are loved and you are immensely gifted and we want to, we don't want to take your gifts and, and use them for our own glory, but we want to work together so that, um, you This place can flourish and that we all can share in the benefits of, um, the goodness of who, who each of us is and the, the sorts of goodness of social bodies that are coming, coming into existence, [00:54:00] um, in which these, these things can all be shared.
Andrew Camp: Thank you, Chris. Um, it's, it's always good to talk, you know, to you and your wisdom and yeah, the conversations we've shared over the years and the friendship even that's developed. Um, just really appreciate you and your. What you're doing, um, you know, you've cost me a lot of money through Inglewood review of books, but it, you know, it's also been my source of what to read next, you know?
And so, um, yeah, if you're not familiar with Inglewood review of books, please visit Inglewood review review of books and, uh, just always some great books to be aware of through Chris. Um, and so just as we end a few fun questions, I like to ask my guests, um, just about food. So what's one food you refuse to eat?
Chris Smith: Ooh. I probably have lots. Um, the one that most, uh, comes to mind first is Brussels sprouts. I, I, I think that I've had some bad [00:55:00] experiences with Brussels sprouts over the years. Okay. It's just one vegetable. I've struggled to eat vegetables over the years completely, honestly. Uh, which is kind of odd that I'm kind of learning to eat more plant based now.
Yeah. A bit of irony there, but, but especially, especially Brussels sprouts. I think those, that's one food that, um, uh, has been really difficult for me. Okay. I mean, I guess, I guess I would eat it if it was served to me, but I probably wouldn't eat very much of it. And, um.
Andrew Camp: Have you ever had fried brussel sprouts where you flash fry them instead, like, you know, versus the mushiness that I think most people associate
Chris Smith: with?
Yeah, I, maybe, um, maybe, I think I've had air fried, uh, brussel sprouts. I don't know that I've had, um, kind of deep fried, um, brussel sprouts, um, But, but usually, usually roasted is kind of, I think, how we've, how we've made them. I'm much, yeah, they're, they're not mushy, but it's [00:56:00] just the, the taste of them, the texture.
I'm kind of a big texture person, uh, in my eating habits. Um, and so I have weird things that, um, that I don't necessarily like because of the, of having bad experiences with the texture of it. I understand.
Andrew Camp: So on the other end of the spectrum, what's the best thing you've ever eaten?
Chris Smith: Oh, uh, yeah, I don't know.
I've eaten a lot of things in my day. Um, I'm not, again, I'm not a gourmet person.
But yeah, I'm kind of, kind of drawing a blank, but I mean, I love, I love home cooked foods. Um, I just actually celebrated my 50th birthday, uh, and our kind of small group from our church got together and kind of one of the, one of the traditions that we have in our small group is that if it's a person's birthday in a week, they get to choose kind of what.
What we're eating, uh, and, um, my friend, [00:57:00] uh, Ben, uh, who's, uh, in our small group, he and his family, um, he's a, he's a really good cook and he makes a good chili, um, and so we had, uh, asked him if he could, could make, uh, chili for us, um, so. Nice. And that actually, I actually, it's, uh, it's a chili with red meat, uh, so actually, uh, but it's, hey, you're only, only turned 50 once.
Exactly. Uh, so, um. But, but, but yeah, that was really delicious and, uh, it's kind of the first thing and kind of a recent thing that, that comes to mind.
Andrew Camp: And then finally, um, there's a conversation amongst chefs about last meals, like as in, if you knew you had one last meal to enjoy, um, what would it be? You know, do you have, if you knew you only had one last meal to enjoy, do you know what you would choose and, and why?
Chris Smith: Hoo, yeah, I don't know. Um, yeah, I think it would be, I think there's probably some. contextual things that would help me kind of make that sort of decision. Um, but, uh, I mean, I think, [00:58:00] uh, I'm a big, again, kind of in contrast to what I've been saying about, uh, uh, eating plant based and trying to avoid red meat.
I really do like a good cheesesteak. I come from the East Coast. Um, And, uh, really, uh, so, so maybe, uh, uh, maybe I would have a cheesesteak if it was my last meal and knew I was going to, going to die anyway, um, I might, uh, really have a, have a good cheesesteak with some, some fried peppers and onions. I'm not a cheese whiz.
There's kind of a big Yeah. Sort of, uh, several schools of, of cheese steaks in, uh, uh, Southeastern Pennsylvania. And I'm not a cheese steak or a cheese whiz on your cheesesteak type person. I'm more a provolone type. Okay. Uh, cheese on your cheese steak. Um, but, uh, but yeah, maybe, maybe that's what I'd have.
awesome.
Andrew Camp: Well, thank you again, um, Chris, for joining us, uh, joining me on this episode. And, um, you know, yeah, I would encourage you as [00:59:00] a listener to, to explore the Inglewood review of books and Chris's, um, substack, which is the conversational life. And we'll make sure all these links are in the show notes.
Um, but yeah, if you've enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing, leaving a review or sharing it with others. Thanks for joining us on this episode of The Biggest Table, where we explore what it means to be transformed by God's love around the table and through food. Until next time, bye.