Marc Beckman: Collin, so, In my head, I have this image of you. You're in Lebanon, bombs are dropping, Hezbollah is around in certain neighborhoods, you have, um, ceramic armor, um, all this photo equipment. Um, somehow you're like a calm within this [00:03:00] storm, but there is chaos. And then you're learning that the chaos level is escalating over the border in Syria, how are you hearing about that news?
Collin Mayfield: So I just, I'm always checking my phone. I'm, I'm looking at the news every single day and, uh. I remember being in Lebanon, seeing the, uh, I remember seeing the news that Hayat Tahrir al Sham, or HTS, launched an offensive from their stronghold of Idlib in northwest Syria, and they attacked Aleppo, and that happened right as the Israel Hezbollah war ended, so it, it Immediately, it was one conflict beginning as another one draws to a close, or rather, a, uh, a frozen conflict heating up again as a conflict across the border is coming to a close, and we're just watching the rebels push further and further south from Lebanon, just checking the news every day and seeing, [00:04:00] you know, after Aleppo fell, uh, Hama fell, and then they were heading down to, to Homs, so we're just all Glued to our phones, glued to Twitter and the news, just keeping up with, with the troop movements that are happening in Syria.
And by the time it was looking like Damascus was going to fall, we started having a serious conversation, my, my colleagues and I, about whether or not we would attempt to cross the border and go to Syria. And then when, uh, Damascus, uh. When, when Assad did flee Damascus and Damascus was like completely taken over by Hayat Tahrir al Sham, it was, it was in that moment that we decided, yeah, immediately we need to go.
Marc Beckman: So HTS really was very strategic about its timing. It's my understanding that they really saw the opportunity as a result of, um, the, the activity that was occurring, um, you know, I think predominantly through Israel's army, right? Like, like [00:05:00] you had a situation here where, um, multiple, uh, things weaken, right?
Hezbollah was weak, Hamas was weak, um, the Iranian. Um, our military was weakened also by Israel, and then all of a sudden, and then Russia was weak because of what's happening in Ukraine. So they saw it as an opportunity to move from, uh, what is it like the north of, of Syria down south,
right? Is that how it effectively worked?
Collin Mayfield: Exactly. They, uh, They've held this autonomous area in Idlib for nearly a decade now, and, I mean, it seemed like the civil war was frozen, but like you said, because their enemies being, you know, the Syrian government and Hezbollah were, you know, depleted because of, you know, the Israel Hezbollah war, and, uh, and Russia is obviously bogged down in Ukraine and not able to provide nearly as much support to Assad as it had previously, so, yes, the, uh, Hayat Tahrir al [00:06:00] Sham and all of the wider rebel coalition, uh, they saw this as a moment to take out Assad.
So after, after Hayat Tahrir al Sham launched their offensive on Aleppo and then captured Aleppo and then started pushing south through the Syrian heartland, uh, other rebel groups started pushing towards Damascus and getting involved as well. So, uh, for example, after Aleppo fell in Deir ez Zor, in Eastern Syria, the Syrian Democratic Forces, the Kurds.
The YPG, they took, uh, they captured Deir ez Zor from the regime. They captured the regime positions that were there. Uh, the southern command in, uh, Dara pushed north towards Damascus. So everybody, all of these different anti government groups realized that this is the time to strike against the regime.
Marc Beckman: And then of course, Israel saw the opportunity to write. Israel
went in and started really, really bombarding,
um, what they saw as potential areas of threats to Israel and just like took everything out.
Collin Mayfield: Yes. In the [00:07:00] week following, uh, Assad's fall, uh, the Israelis launched hundreds, it was, it was over 600 airstrikes that they launched across, across Syria in the week after Assad fell. Uh, I remember those first few days in Damascus just being in my hotel and at about 4. 30, 5 o'clock. Those first few mornings, uh, just on the horizon from my hotel window, you could see the sky lighting up because there was a, uh, a Syrian army airfield that the Israelis were bombing.
And, uh, yeah, as soon as, as soon as Assad fell, they, uh, the IDF made very clear that they didn't want any of these weapons, uh, Be they chemical weapons or long range missiles to, uh, to fall into the hands of HTS. So, yeah, as the regime collapsed, the Israelis did all they could to destroy any military infrastructure that could potentially be used against Israel.
And the other thing they did was the Israelis invaded southern Syria. So after the, [00:08:00] uh, after the Yom Kippur War ended, the United Nations established this buffer zone in between the Syrian part of the Golan region, or Quneitra government, and the Israeli held part Of the, uh, the Golan region, because as we all know, in 1967, Israel captured the Golan Heights and, uh, has claimed it as a part of Israel ever since.
But, since 1974, there's been a buffer zone separating the Israeli part of Golan from the remainder of Syria, and The day Assad fell on December 8th, the IDF crossed into the buffer strip and started expanding. Now, the Israelis have taken the entirety of the buffer strip in between, uh, you know, Syrian Golan and Israeli held Golan.
And, uh, And they've, they've pushed out past that. So that was one of the things I did while I was in Syria. I went down to the Golan region, you know, to Quneitra [00:09:00] govern, govern it. I went to this town called, uh, Quneitra itself, the city of Quneitra within Quneitra government. Uh, that's where I actually ran into some Israelis who were building a position and they Very sternly, but politely, told me to, uh, turn around and go back the way I came, but if anything, they seemed more surprised that a, uh, a random American was in the buffer zone than, uh, than they were hostile for sure.
Marc Beckman: Collin, I want to back up for a second. Let's go all the way back up to Idlib and HTS. Um, and, and if you can, I'd like you to, uh, just check my understanding of the facts, because I could be mistaken. So when I see videos Current videos of Idlib. It looks like, and this again is the area that HTS was running.
They were operating.
Um, it looks like it's a, um, a city that is still in good [00:10:00] condition. It's not war torn and it looks like it's a functioning city. I saw cars and, and commerce and people in the streets. It looked relatively normal. Am I, am I right in saying that?
Collin Mayfield: Yeah, I'd say so. Uh, I've not been to Idlib, but I have many friends who have, and Hayat Tarir al Sham has been governing Idlib effectively for many years now. They have municipal structures in place, be they traffic police or ambulance services, and they have been serving as a government in the Idlib region for quite a while now.
It wasn't too much of an adjustment for, uh, Hayat Tahrir al Sham to go to governing all of Syria, because they already had that experience of governing Idlib. But admittedly, Idlib is a much smaller region than, you know, the majority of the country that they now control.
Marc Beckman: So, so let's give my audience an understanding as to where HTS came from, how it was born, because I understand, um, the roots of the, of the organization, of the entity are [00:11:00] interesting, um, and, and, um, in many ways, Plays into where we're going with regards to Syria's future vision. So can you talk a little bit about HTS's leadership, where it came from and, and what the forward looking vision is, and then we'll go back into like the other cities that, that they went after at that point.
Collin Mayfield: So, HTS, or Hayat Tahrir al Sham, is, uh, led by this guy, Named, uh, Ahmed Sharra. Now, Ahmed Sharra has previously been known as Abbu Muhammad Alani. That's what he has been most prominently known for. But, uh, Ani, his name coming from Golan or Jolan, the region of Syria that was, uh, taken by Israel in 1967. So Ani or Shara, as he now prefers to be called.
Shara had, I mean, quite an interesting [00:12:00] career to, to, to say the least. Uh, he was, I mean, first he was affiliated with Al Qaeda. So he was with Al Qaeda in Iraq after the United States invasion. And he was, he was ever so briefly imprisoned by the United States. Uh, He was then, he was briefly affiliated with, uh, the Islamic State of Iraq, but he didn't want to swear allegiance to Abukar Al Bhati and isis.
So the people under Ani, uh, instead swore allegiance to Zawahiri Andi's Group became al-Nusra Front, which is, you know, widely considered to be the Al-Qaeda affiliate in, uh, in Syria. You know, after, after Al Nusra Front, there was the rebrand al Sham, and after Jabhat Fateh al Sham, we have Hayat 3 al Sham, which is what we have today, and which is, you know, the largest group in, in Syria right [00:13:00] now, and, uh, it's who, who Shara is, uh, is the leader of, and now,
Marc Beckman: a tough, that's a, that's a
tough background, right? I mean, that is no joke. Yeah. When did
Collin Mayfield: Al Qaeda, Islamic State, Al Nusra Front, and, uh, and now Hayat Tahrir al Sham.
But Jolani has now Shara, because
Marc Beckman: Jelani change his name? I, I, I didn't even know that that
Collin Mayfield: So he, he prefers to go by Shara because Jolani was his nom de guerre when he was affiliated with Al Qaeda and Islamic State. And now that he is a You know, reformed jihadist, you could say. He says he's not. He argues and has said many times in interviews that he is not nearly as radical as he was in his youth.
He's no longer looking for global jihad. So he's been trying to rebrand himself. I mean, no, whether or not anybody believes him, that's your own judgment call. It's your own discretion. But he is at least trying to do that public relations of [00:14:00] he wants to at least appear reasonable. So he's stopped going by a name that is confrontational toward Israel and instead just uses his given name.
And yeah, he's just,
Marc Beckman: didn't they call him on the streets because they thought that was like a, a positive nod to Israel. They called him Jew Lonnie.
Collin Mayfield: I've actually heard the opposite. So it's critics who have called him that saying he's not he doesn't go hard enough on Israel and regardless of what Jolani or what Shara may or may not think about Israel, uh, I don't think calling him Jew Lani is fair. I don't think he's a Mossad agent. I think he's not an idiot, and he sees that Hezbollah and Hamas have been crippled, and, uh, you know, you probably shouldn't have Israel as an enemy.
That's why the, uh, Syrian government has had very, very little to say about the Israeli incursions in the south of, of Syria.
Marc Beckman: So is he saying the right things in [00:15:00] your opinion right now, um, to, to take control of the country and to try to create, um, ongoing control, ongoing stability? Is he saying the right things as it relates to what I think, uh, the international community and media would like to hear?
Collin Mayfield: Most certainly. I'd say he's a fairly good public speaker. He's been very good at getting his points across, and he's been good at the rebrand. Uh, he no longer is wearing fatigues and a keffiyeh around his head with a big burly beard. Now it's a suit with a tie and a trimmed, neat beard. So he's, he's done a lot to rebrand himself for this, like, neoliberal, western world order, and it's, uh, it's a lot more appealing to the west.
I mean, you don't have,
Marc Beckman: What are the appealing talking points? Like I see the visual that you're painting, but what are the talking points? What have they shifted from being like radical extremist jihadist into, Oh, he's a softer, kinder
[00:16:00] leader.
Collin Mayfield: example, um, you know, after the HTS takeover, there were a number of incidents that were documented where religious and ethnic minorities were attacked. Like, there was a Christmas tree in Hama that was burned, and, uh, uh, Shara gave an interview after, after the fact, and he said that, yes, after the takeover, there were some abuses committed by members of Hayat Tahrir al Sham.
Where ethnic minorities were persecuted or attacked, but these were not orders of HTS itself. It was just individuals working for HTS. Again, whether or not anyone believes him, that's a, uh, that's a personal judgment call, but the fact that he is trying to say that there will be accountability for people who hurt Ethnic and religious minorities and Shara went on to say in that interview that these ethnic groups and minorities have been in the region for thousands of years, and that nobody has a right to displace them or extinguish them.
So just those [00:17:00] statements like that show that. They have the West in mind the way old school Al Qaeda never would have.
Marc Beckman: Well, Collin, is there anyone historically that, um, you could think of that's gone through this type of rebranding, both physically with regards to clothing and shaving, et cetera, as well as messaging? I mean, it's incredible what he's doing, right?
Collin Mayfield: I'm trying to think of another good example from history of somebody who's gone through that many looks. I mean, the only other world leader I can think of who's gone through as many looks as Jolani is Trudeau, but his are costumes. Whereas, you know, Jolani had his transition. First, it was your stereotypical Islamist militant with the long beard and keffiyeh.
And then he started dressing like Fidel Castro, uh, when he took over, uh, when HTS took over Damascus. That's, that's how Shahar was dressed. When I saw him on December 8th, ever so briefly, uh, in Damascus on that [00:18:00] very first day, that's how he was dressed in his Fidel esque fatigues. And then after, uh, you know, the move to the suit, So yeah, it seems to have been quite the successful rebrand.
Marc Beckman: So Collin, when you talk, when you say you saw him on December 8th, I know we got to get. Get back into the timeline here, but this is your first day in Damascus.
And where are you? And like, tell me what's going on. Like, let's, let's, let's bring that, that
image to life for a second.
Collin Mayfield: All right, so
Marc Beckman: you, you know, I admittedly, like you, when you told me this story, the first time we spoke, this was just fascinating to me.
It's like, all of a sudden, like this light shines on this moment where you are and you're seeing, you know, the leader of HTS right next to you. So where are you? What, how did
this
Collin Mayfield: was It was it was insane so December 7th, of course Hayat 3 al Sham is on the outskirts of Damascus Early morning December 8th, [00:19:00] Assad flees, flies to Latakia, then flies to Moscow. After that HTS enters the city. So at the point that HTS is entering, that's when my colleagues and I in Beirut are debating to go, and we pretty quickly decided that we were going to make our way to Syria and leave, cross the border, didn't make it into Damascus until late that night.
And we,
Marc Beckman: you drive, you drove in?
Collin Mayfield: yes, we drove. We, uh, we had a car. Um, a friend of mine in Lebanon has a car, so we took, we, we all went in, in her car. so. We arrived into Damascus late that night, and one of the few hotels we were able to find open was the Golden Mesa Hotel. It was a very expensive, luxury hotel, and after checking in and dropping our luggage off, um, a few of my colleagues and I went to the hotel bar and decided to grab a drink.
And we were there for a few minutes, and then A hotel staff comes in, and they start pushing all of the tables in the bar into one really long table. [00:20:00] And then the hotel manager comes, and says, I'm very sorry, there's going to be a private event, so we need you to leave the bar. And we were a little bit confused about that, it's like the government just collapsed, and somebody's rented out the bar for a private event?
We were a little, a little bit perplexed by that, and after we got kicked out of the bar, my colleague, Yokota Grandetsuka, and I, she and I went outside for a cigarette. And all of our luggage and camera equipment was, unfortunately, in our, in our rooms. So she and I are outside having our cigarette, and then a bunch of HTS, uh, fighters walk out about
Marc Beckman: do you know they're HTS? Like what,
Collin Mayfield: their, their uniforms and, uh, patches on their shoulders.
Marc Beckman: Okay.
Collin Mayfield: And, uh, You know, after a while, they, uh, they start coming out. There's about 15, 20 of them. I'm just watching them come out. And then, Shara walks right by. Yagoda and I, and it was like five feet [00:21:00] away from him. We just looked at him. He looked at us and I, I, he got in his car. They all, they all drove away and I couldn't believe it.
And I went inside and I asked the concierge, uh, I said to the concierge, I was like, is that who I thought it was? Is that who I think it was? And he was like, yeah, that was Jolani. And so apparently after, after the takeover, they, uh, they had a little private meeting in the bar of one of the nicest hotels in Damascus.
Marc Beckman: So, so
Collin Mayfield: fortunate enough to have been there.
Marc Beckman: when you see this guy, um, are you terrified? Are you fearful when you see this group of
people? Are you, like, you're not scared at all?
Collin Mayfield: No, no,
Marc Beckman: you be scared? Should you, should you be scared?
Collin Mayfield: No, they want to look, they want to look good to the West. They're not going to harass some random journalist. Especially not somebody that important. I mean, a foot soldier at a checkpoint might harass a journalist, but people like that are not, not going to. [00:22:00] be an issue.
I mean, I wasn't, I wasn't concerned about it. I wasn't concerned about it. I was just in shock at, at seeing somebody who has that much power and sway over history. I mean, somebody who just, I mean, has incredibly like shaped the region for better or worse, too soon to say. Regardless, somebody who has, you know, gravely impacted history just walked right by us.
I was just, just dumbfounded by that.
Marc Beckman: Do you know anything about his background, Collin? Like, is he, uh, educated in like, it sounds like he comes from wealth. Like, did he have a Western education of sorts or, uh, what's his story?
Collin Mayfield: Uh, he, I mean, he was born in Riyadh and grew up in Saudi, but his family is from Syria, uh, family has a little bit of money, but I, I don't remember exactly what he studied while he was, while he was living in, in, uh, Syria, but after, after the, uh, after the, the, uh, The [00:23:00] Second Intifada in the early 2000s, that is when Shara adopted the Namdigir Jolani and that, that Second Intifada is what he said radicalized him.
So that's, that's really where a lot of his story begins.
Marc Beckman: I see. So when, when we painted the picture earlier of Idlib, the thing that was interesting to me was then when HTS went through these other major, major cities, um, A lot of them were already disaster zones, right? They had been like subject to war and battle and, and, um, bombings and, and whatnot, like, would you say it was tough for HTS to move in and take, you know, some, I know these are like major, major cities in Syria, but it seemed like their infrastructure was just so decimated at that point.
Do you think it was difficult for HTS to, to walk in and take control?
Collin Mayfield: No, I don't. And my reason for that is, uh, I mean, they mostly used the, I think it's called the M5 highway, and it's that highway that connects [00:24:00] up and down in Syria. It goes from Damascus all the way up to Aleppo, and they took that highway. Just straight south. And in a lot of instances, uh, like for example, when, uh, when Hama fell, like there was, there was fighting in Aleppo over a few days and there were airstrikes, uh, conducted by the Syrian Arab army and the, the Russian army, but neither of those were able to dislodge HGS and ultimately Aleppo fell.
So when they start going down the M5 towards, uh, Hama, The SAA, the Syrian Arab Army, they retreated from Hama further south to defend Homs and, uh, and so like that city was taken with very little fighting and, I mean, really the Assad's army crumbled without a whole lot of resistance. I mean, in many places, uh, soldiers fled.
I mean, you have to keep in mind it's, uh, this is, this is a civil war that has been going on for over a [00:25:00] decade. And, and we'd All thought of it as being frozen. HTS has hardened ideologues fighting for it. People who are motivated by what they believe in. People who have traveled all the way, from all over the world.
I mean, I, I saw U, I saw Tajiks while I was there. Meanwhile, Assad had conscripts. So, he didn't have a very motivated force, and it just, it, it, it very quickly evaporated with, with the speed of HTS's advance.
Marc Beckman: How did Assad get out? How did he get into Russia?
Collin Mayfield: So Assad, so it's not entirely sure, but, so Assad flew from, in the middle of the night after the city's surrounded, Assad flew from Damascus to Latakia on the coast, and then from Latakia, it was a, a, I want to say it was a Russian flight. Or a Russian jet, but it was a flight from Latakia to Russia.
Marc Beckman: What do you think will happen to Assad? I [00:26:00] know that he's, you know, in his posh penthouse in Moscow, but what do you think ultimately is going to happen?
The same thing that happened to the Shah. Die in exile. I don't think anything I think his story is done. He's just, uh, the rest of his days are just gonna be like, Shah Pahlavi, in the capital city of the country that once backed you. Until you die.
Do you think, uh, Syria is in a better position with this new government now?
Collin Mayfield: It is far, far too soon to say. I mean, there there are too many variables at play, it's like Will HTS try and implement some form of Sharia in Syria that a lot of Syrians are not happy with because Syria, especially like Damascus has been, you know, historically relatively secular compared to like other parts of the Middle East, like, uh, So whether or not, if, if they want to implement some type of Sharia that could cause difficulty, I mean, we're already [00:27:00] seeing rumblings of pro Assadist militias that are against HTS, like in this southern suburb of Damascus, Jamorana, there's been unrest there, unrest to the point where the Israelis have threatened to come and provide security and like, resolve the situation.
Uh, I think it's, I think it's far too soon to say. I think, I think, uh, can Shara even hold together his own group of people? I mean, he might be moderate enough to allow for, you know, liquor stores and bars in Damascus, but some of his more radical underlings certainly wouldn't be. So there's, there's already been, you know, cracks of bickering, like within HTS's ranks.
So I, I do think it's, it's far too soon To say whether or not Syria will be better or worse, but what we can say for sure is that Assad was absolutely brutal to the people of Syria, and [00:28:00] for a number of people I met who suffered under the regime, they said they don't know whether or not HTS is going to be good or bad, and whether or not the future is going to be good or bad, and if Syria is going to be free or continue to be in war, but what they do know is that at least one tyrant is gone.
Marc Beckman: What a crazy, crazy situation. So it's December 8th. I have this vision of you guys, like jumping in the car in Lebanon and taking like a road trip. You just like cruise over the border. I'm sure there were, I'm sure there was like no, um, check for passports or anything like that.
Collin Mayfield: On the Lebanese side, yes.
Marc Beckman: and then You just
Collin Mayfield: exit stamp for Lebanon, and then past that there's nothing. Just empty, abandoned checkpoints on the Syrian side.
Marc Beckman: Wow. So you cruise into Damascus, you see, you have this moment, but then you're like, here you are, you're in Damascus and, and everything is going, you know, totally wild, upside down, like complete chaos. Wake up in the morning. Where's the first, uh, destination? What did you guys want to cover first? I know there was [00:29:00] so much in the news then. Where do you go?
Collin Mayfield: Uh, immediately, we all went to Umayyad Square, which is a central roundabout in Damascus, and there are tens of thousands of people gathered, both civilians and militants alike, to celebrate the fall of the Assad regime. So there was a statue of Hafez al Assad, uh, who is Bashar al Assad's father, and Hafez was the dictator before Bashar succeeded and took power after Hafez died in 2000.
But, like, there was a statue of Hafez that was pulled down in central Damascus the night before that they were dragging through Mayad Square behind a truck. Celebratory gunfire. So many men were Shooting their AKs into the air. Uh, I, there was even one technical that was shooting its belt fed machine gun from the back of the truck into the air.
So that was interesting to see, but just tens of
Marc Beckman: must've been relaxing.
Collin Mayfield: eh, it's celebratory gunfire. So everyone's just happy. Nobody's worried about it. I
Marc Beckman: Tens of [00:30:00] thousands of people are in the street, gunfire in the air, and it's just, you know,
Collin Mayfield: Dozens, dozens of guns though. I mean, most of the people there weren't armed. Most of the people there were civilians celebrating, but HTS was definitely shooting their guns in the air and you know, you always, militants will pass their guns around and let kids get pictures with them. Uh, I saw that in, in Lebanon as well, but so you'd see like lots of like Syrian teenagers like holding AKs, getting the pictures taken with HTS in Umayyad Square and everyone was just celebrating the fall of the regime.
So those first few days were just, it was a lot of ecstasy as everyone was just celebrating this, the fall of this Ba'athist regime that had been there for 50 years that nobody ever thought was going to leave. I mean, keep in mind, uh, The, the Syrian civil war seemed like it was coming to a close. It seemed like Assad had won.
And in 2023, the parts of the [00:31:00] international order even welcomed Assad back. I mean, it's like the Arab spring was so long ago, they, they let Assad rejoin the Arab league in 2023 or rather the Arab league allowed Syria to rejoin in 2023. So it's just It was completely unfathomable for everybody there just a week before.
Marc Beckman: So tons of emotion. What about, um, the Syrian women? Were they in the streets too?
Collin Mayfield: Of course, yes, plenty of women. And, uh, and like I touched on earlier, uh, Damascus is historically a lot more secular than a lot of us in the West might imagine. So, I mean, after the takeover, we started seeing as time moved on, we started seeing more and more niqabs, but a lot of the women that live in Damascus are just going to be hair uncovered, no hijab.
I mean, some, some wear hijab, some don't, but it's not uncommon. A lot of women in [00:32:00] Damascus were. secular minded and western clothing. So it's,
Marc Beckman: you have a chance to talk to any of the kids that were taking photos? Like, I'm curious from their perspective, do they, if you had the conversation, did they have the understanding as to like, what was, you know, there was revolution in the streets, right? There's like maybe a new type of freedom, perhaps.
Did they understand that at all? Or were they just part of the, you know, the masses?
Collin Mayfield: younger children I was able to speak to, not, not really just because there was such the language barrier, but as far as, you know, college students, you know, people in their early twenties who, who Most often did speak English. I was able to talk to a lot of them and they were just explaining just how ecstatic it was because they'd felt like they'd had a boot on their throat for the past decade or more for their entire lives.
And again, it was just, it seemed completely unfathomable and all of a sudden this dictator who had [00:33:00] been there for years was gone. And so everybody I spoke to who was old enough really understood the. The significance of it, and everyone seemed excited.
Marc Beckman: Collin, did you speak to anyone at that moment who perhaps had, uh, friends, family in some of those prisons, those terrible Syrian prisons?
Collin Mayfield: So not that first day at, um, Mayad Square, uh, I ended up going to Sadiya. Uh, two days later I went to Sadiya, which was called the Human Slaughterhouse. It was one of Assad's most infamous prisons. Uh, so I did, I did meet survivors from a few facades prisons, but again, not that first day.
Marc Beckman: So when, when you went on, I didn't, I didn't know the name, the human slaughterhouse. I mean, that is just so gruesome and terrible. So two days later, when you go into, uh, I guess, let me, let me back up because again, the mindset of it is so fascinating to me. So you're, so you make this decision, you [00:34:00] obviously know about it.
It was all over the news, but you make this decision that you want to go and visit the human slaughterhouse. You hear that it's open, right?
Collin Mayfield: Yes.
Marc Beckman: And, um, do you have any reluctance or is there any fear? Is there any concern, like concern on your side about going there?
Collin Mayfield: Again, not really, because it's, this is the kind of thing I've, I've done before, and it was just going to a liberated prison, so there, there really wasn't anything that occurred at Sidnaya that was, you know, scary or anything. I mean, it's, it's, it was sobering, for sure. It was a very somber place with, with absolutely horrifying conditions, but, I mean.
It would be terrifying to be imprisoned there. I mean, I know I'm being as sickly as I am, I I'd be dead within a month if I were ever imprisoned in Sidnaya, but it's just, it was horrifying to see the conditions that they were in.
Marc Beckman: what was it like, um, when, when you talk about the conditions being horrifying, let's talk about like the physical conditions first. And then from there [00:35:00] we can
extend into possibly like the different types of, um, uh, devices and
contraptions that you saw.
Collin Mayfield: All right. So it's just, so there were a lot of, so Sidnaya had prisoners both above and below ground, and it was those below ground cells that were the, particularly disturbing ones. Just really small, cramped, the floors are wet and your shoes are getting wet. There's, it just, it reeks. There's urine and excrement on the floor.
All of the squat toilets are just overflowing with sewage. It just, it reeks. The air was hot and thick and It just, the entire place smelled of death. You'd see roaches and bugs in the cells and graffiti that people had clawed in, into the walls. Uh, some people were held in solitary confinement without seeing light.
Others were more fortunate, but, [00:36:00] uh, It's just that that prison broke so many people. There was there was one anecdote I read shortly after the prison was released where there was a man who thought that Hafez Al Assad, the father of Bashar Al Assad, this there was a man in the prison who thought that Hafez and Hafez's rival Saddam Hussein finally went to war.
Saddam won and Saddam was liberating him from Sidnaya And this man got the rude awakening that, no, Hafez has been dead for 20 years, and, uh, Saddam as well, as there's just, some people just had, had absolutely no grasp or bearing on reality when they got out. Uh, there was this one man who was arrested, who, er, there was this one man who was liberated, who the only word he could utter was Aleppo.
Like, the [00:37:00] HTS guys that rescued him would ask, you know, where are you from Aleppo? Where were you arrested? Aleppo? What's your name? Aleppo? And I, I remember I went to Ibn Sina Psychiatric Hospital and I met two patients from Sidnaya, uh, one man and one woman. And the woman was childlike, but she could speak, but the man was completely disoriented.
He was, he was skittish and scared and he, uh, he couldn't, he couldn't speak a word. He didn't, he couldn't say anything. And he had welts on his wrist where he was handcuffed and suspended, just hanging by his wrist for long periods of time. So his wrist was swollen up because of it. And he had like little lacerations across his arms and wounds that look like cigarette burns.
But like I said, I mean, he couldn't, he couldn't speak. He couldn't explain. What had happened and when hospital staff tried to [00:38:00] show me this man's wounds, so they pulled his sleeves up, he got really visibly distressed by that and just recoiled at having his wounds exposed.
Marc Beckman: It's amazing.
Collin Mayfield: I mean, we, we found like in the women's wing of the prison, we found a packet of contraception pills on the floor, which it doesn't take much inferring to, uh, to know what that has to mean. Yeah, I mean, there was rampant sexual abuse
Marc Beckman: rampant rape.
Collin Mayfield: Yeah, horrifying. I, I, I visited another prison that was run by Assad's military intelligence directorate.
It's called Far' Falastin and, uh, in the Far' Falastin prison, there were a lot of survivors who, uh, there were a number of survivors who testified to like the European Council for Human Rights and, uh, they were saying how like in Far' Falastin, like gang [00:39:00] rape was incredibly common and for women, it, it, Felt as if like sexual assault was part of the booking process.
I mean, uh, at, at Far' Falastin prison, women were just raped upon their arrival to the prison. I mean, it's just the worst of atrocities. I mean, we saw corpses in the Damascus public hospital that had been recovered from Sidnaya and uh, some of the, like you could count their ribs. All of these men were starving.
You could, you just, you could see their ribs. So many of them were missing eyes, some appeared to have been gouged out, uh, there was one man I saw who appeared as though he'd had his skin flailed off because there were different parts of his skin, some were only about like 4 inches by 4 inches, others like 4 by 6 or 10, where it just looked as if Skin had been peeled off of his body.
[00:40:00] There was there was another corpse. I saw that had been recovered from Sinai that, uh, was castrated and it was just horrible, horrible things. I mean, so many people recounted. torture in all of these facilities, be it being doused with boiling water or having a tire placed over you so you're immobilized and then being beaten with pipes and extension cords.
You know, there was, uh, one man I interviewed who was arrested and he told me how there was a wall, a concrete wall in the prison that the, uh, that the guards had glued broken glass all across. And what they would do is they would throw inmates into the wall.
Marc Beckman: insane. Just totally insane. What about torture, um, devices or, or, um, like when you were in these prisons, did you see any [00:41:00] types of tools or anything that, um, also highlighted, uh, how the prisoners were being tortured?
Collin Mayfield: So they didn't get nearly as medieval as I would have expected. From both what I personally heard from survivors and what I've read from, uh, like different human rights groups that have published reports, uh, a lot of the torture was more rudimentary, like being beaten with extension cords, or I remember reading about, uh, one man who was Stabbed with graphite pencils and then the guards would break the pencils while they were still in his flesh So bits of wood and graphite would be stuck within him So it's not like they had a lot of high tech Torture equipment that they were using it really was a lot more like rudimentary stuff
Collin Mayfield: just putting Like holding holding somebody down and putting cigarettes on them But there was one device that I think you're about
Marc Beckman: yeah, this
Collin Mayfield: there's one one device.
[00:42:00] I did see And that was called, uh, colloquially, it's been called the, uh, the Pancake Machine. And it was a, uh, a hydraulic press big enough to fit, like, one or two people in it. And we heard a few different things from people after the prison had been taken over. So, one thing that I heard was that the hydraulic press was used for, uh, executions and torture.
Another thing I heard was that the hydraulic press was used to crush bodies to get, like, moisture out of them so it'd be a lot easier to dispose of, or crush the bodies so they would dissolve in acid more quickly. So those are the couple of explanations that I heard for the massive, uh, The massive hydraulic press that was found at the prison and I will say this much the room where the press was was one of the most foul disgusting smelling places I mean it just it just smelled like rot
Marc Beckman: [00:43:00] That's like, just so horrific, I can't even, I can't even imagine, I mean, is that, is that entire experience, not just the image, but the, the scent? That, that, that smell
of death as you describe it? Is that like, permanently embedded in your memory?
Collin Mayfield: there's a few of those there's a few of those smells that I'm I'm not gonna not gonna forget be they from uh from Ukraine or Syria or yeah there's
Marc Beckman: Is,
Collin Mayfield: I I'd say humans have have have a more distinctive smell than you know say like a dead raccoon or
Marc Beckman: this the most horrific, um, experience that you saw or experience? Is this the most horrific air? I'm at a loss for words, to be honest with you. Like, is this the most horrific thing that you witnessed or saw in, in Syria and Damascus, or was there
were, was there worse?
Collin Mayfield: I don't think you could top Sidnaya. I mean, just given the, I mean, cause it wasn't all, we saw it cumulatively in one [00:44:00] place. It's like the corpses we saw from Sidnaya who had been clearly tortured. Uh, we saw those at the public hospital in Damascus. And I mean, like I said, they had, Bits cut off of them or cigarettes put out on them and then but I I would I would just say yeah Sednaya was definitely the most one of the most disturbing places that I visited in Syria for sure Just given the sheer amount of death and torture Occurred there and I mean we met I met survivors.
I saw some of the victims a Definitely one of the more disturbing parts of the trip for sure.
Marc Beckman: Yeah, it's so wild. So, you know, Assad turned Syria into a drug peddling type of machine too, right? With Captagon. I know that he was distributing, building, manufacturing and distributing Captagon. Not just throughout the Middle East, but it started to permeate into Europe. And, and, uh, I understand also parts of Africa and beyond. Um, did you, [00:45:00] did you stumble across, uh, Captagon manufacturing facility or did you
go
Collin Mayfield: quite a bit We went looking for it. So shortly after, uh, the day after I went to Sidnaya, I was reading about a, the main Captagon facility, uh, that the regime used. It was in this place called Douma, which is on the outskirts north of Damascus. Now, In Duma, there's a massive Captagon facility and the regime always claimed that that plant in Duma was making soap, but everybody knew it actually made Captagon.
So, HTS captured the Duma facility, uh, Like December 7th before they were approaching Damascus and I visited the Duma facility on December 13th. So here, uh, the Assad regime was producing Captagon, which is an [00:46:00] amphetamine. It's similar to speed. so for anyone in the audience who might have taken Adderall or Vyvanse before, uh, allegedly, imagine taking two or three, uh, 30 milligram Adderalls and allegedly that would be about what the average Captagon Would feel like I would say, yeah, I mean, I, the Assad regime, it genuinely was a, a narco state.
I mean, they, they produce like 80 percent of the world's Captagon. And, uh, I mean, estimates vary, but it's estimated that the regime made like 5. 7 billion annually from Captagon production. And they had smuggling routes like into Lebanon and from Lebanon, you have I mean, they'd go to the Gulf states as well.
And so it's just permeating throughout the Middle East. And like you said, it's spread out of the Middle East. But I mean, it is, it's definitely one of the [00:47:00] most popular drugs there for sure.
Marc Beckman: You think HTS will, will, uh, resurrect that business?
Collin Mayfield: Oh no, they've promised to destroy Captagon production.
Marc Beckman: Do you believe them?
Collin Mayfield: It's too profitable.
Marc Beckman: Exactly.
Collin Mayfield: What, they're going to take all of this equipment and not use it? I mean, the market Has just collapsed. I mean, you know, 80 percent of Captagon production is, is gone and some enterprising entrepreneur is going to fill that void and HTS already has all the resources for it, but you know, that would be Haram drug production is Haram.
And they have publicly said that they are going to stop the flow of Captagon and destroy remaining Captagon production. And I think if they do want sanctions relief. It would be wise of them to do that.
Marc Beckman: Where do you think the ingredients comes from?
Uh, I remember that one bottle of manufacturing components. I don't know, I don't remember what it was exactly. But there was this one [00:48:00] bottle I saw that was manufactured in the UK. Where the manufacturing components come from, though, I, uh, I can't really say.
Did any of your friends try it?
Collin Mayfield: Allegedly, a lot of us did.
Marc Beckman: And.
Collin Mayfield: Yeah, that's Yeah, how I'm able to compare it to an Adderall, but, uh, like, uh, yeah, like I said, HTS has said that they're going to destroy the pills and then off camera, they may have turned a blind eye to various colleagues of mine from different outlets. Taking it. I mean, it's kind of an open secret. A lot of people did try it.
And, uh, yeah, yeah. A lot of, a lot of people, uh, yeah. A lot of people were trying it and HTS kind of looked the other way if any, any foreign journalist was gonna pocket a couple of pills. Which, certainly a few did.
Marc Beckman: And there you go. So, um, [00:49:00] you know, it's, it's. Pretty wild when you start to think about the, uh, the bill, like the, the infrastructure of Syria. I mean, it was like a, a brutal regime. People are being tortured. Hospitals are filled with, you know, mentally ill people that are, uh, by products of a brutal regime. Um, what type of industry was left? I mean, if you look at the images of some of these major cities that you're talking about, they're all decimated. So what. What is going to come as it relates to commerce, um, in, in the future,
Collin Mayfield: Now that, I am no expert on, but I mean there's just going to have to be a lot of Rebuilding to happen, and another thing that is worth considering is, I mean, just, I mean, the role that Israel plays in this, because a lot of that, a lot of land that agriculturally has been, you know, very profitable for Syria, a lot of this very fertile land in Syria's [00:50:00] southwest is currently in Israel's crosshairs right now.
So, I mean, again, there, there are too many variables for me to predict, like what, what industry may take hold in the future.
Marc Beckman: didn't Netanyahu just say that he was going to go into Syria to protect the Druze.
Collin Mayfield: Yes, yeah, there's been, yeah, there's been, uh, yeah, that was, that was the, uh, the, the pretext I heard, uh, Netanyahu give was, uh, to protect the Druze, and, and as far as the Druze I go have, er, as far as the Druze go that I've, like, personally met, I mean, Lebanese Druze that I've met, I know a handful of them who are, you know, anti Israel.
I, uh, Syrian Druze I met were more divided. Some of them expressed to me in private that they'd feel more comfortable being with Israel. Others expressed more publicly, of course, that, uh, know they wanted to be part of Syria under HTS. Um, I remember we saw this one video, I saw this one [00:51:00] video of a Druze man in Syria saying that he and his community would be better off if they were under Israel, and this was, uh, in this region of Syria called Hadar, and it's near Mount Hermon, and, uh, I asked this Druze, uh, Mokhtar, who's like a, an elder, uh, like a village elder. I asked him about that and he said that that was absurd and that no, that, you know, we would not be better off under Israel, but rather we want to remain under Syria. We are Syrians. So Druze opinion seems to be divided.
But what I will say is that when I asked, um, All of the Syrians I asked about the Israeli incursion when I was in, like, the Quneitra region, which is the part that, you know, Israel invaded on, um, December 8th, all of them, a lot of the people I met said that the IDF soldiers they interacted with were Druze.
So it does make sense on the IDF's part to send Druze soldiers to an [00:52:00] area that has historically been Druze. So that, that did make a lot of sense. Uh, but yeah, I mean, they've, I mean, a lot of. A lot of Druze were against HTS during the civil war. And even though these, there were Druze militias that fought against HTS.
Now they're saying that since HTS is in control, they want to recognize the, the current legitimate government. I mean, this was the, the sentiment that like the Druze leaders that I spoke with in Hadar shared with me. But, uh, I guess we'll see whether or not the, uh, The Israelis do go all the way to, uh, to the outskirts of Damascus to protect the Druze in that area. Like, we'll, we'll see.
Marc Beckman: Well, you know, it's kind of interesting though, because if you think about it, your, your comment, if there was like a glaring form of con of commerce coming out that, um, uh, HTS can leverage for monetary purposes, you would know it, you are [00:53:00] on the ground, you would see it. Right. There's like no publishing industry.
There's no Hollywood. They're not creating, you know, new forms of emerging technology. You would know it. Right. So I guess the question is what happens to HTS, which has roots in terrorism, which, um, has roots in religion. And wants to keep control over all of Syria. If they don't have the money to manage the, um, the property, the real estate, what happens to HTS?
Like, what are they gonna, what are they going to do to make sure that they can control and manage an infrastructure that's sustainable?
Collin Mayfield: Well, one thing that I think that they would rely on would be that same thing that the Assad regime itself relied on. So The, the government that exists in Syria now, which after a while they did start calling themselves the Syrian Arab Republic, I found that interesting that, so my first press card that I [00:54:00] got issued in Damascus after the HTS takeover, it said, uh, like Syrian, it said Syrian Salvation Government on it, and about a week after that, they started calling themselves the Syrian Arab Republic, which is the same name that the Assad regime went under, and uh, Aside from Captagon, one thing that the Assad regime relied on a lot for funding was its oil fields in the east of Syria, like in the area around Deir ez Zor, and this is going to be something that a future Government would look towards.
I mean, you definitely want to be able to have these these oil fields and be able to profit off of that or be able to, like, purchase cheap oil from the Syrian Democratic Forces, because that's one of the way that one of the ways that, like, the autonomous administration in the Northeast makes money is by the government.
Okay. Um, selling its oil to the rest of Syria. So I think we'll definitely see a lot more of that as, as has been the case already.
Marc Beckman: [00:55:00] Do you think HTS will think in terms of creating some sort of a caliphate? Do you think they'll want to expand beyond Syria?
Collin Mayfield: No, I don't think so. Because I mean, they wouldn't have joined HTS if, if their intention was global caliphate. Because I mean, he might, and these are guys, a lot of these people who, Nusra like already had their Islamic state affiliations and they decided they didn't want to be. With the Islamic State. So like, I mean, Shara declaring allegiance, you know, with al Nusra and not IS.
So, I mean, just their past actions indicate that they're not looking for some cross border caliphate. I mean, Hayat al Sham has said that their focus has been on Syria. Uh, they might I mean, I don't think it's unrealistic to say that we might have some type of Islamic state in Syria similar to, like, the Islamic states that we have in, like, Turkey and Saudi, for example, [00:56:00] but I don't think, I don't think at all that a cross border caliphate is Is on the table.
Marc Beckman: Sort of something a lot more moderate than,
Collin Mayfield: Most definitely, most definitely. And I don't think that the Turks would allow that either. I mean, Turkey has been very quick in establishing diplomatic relations. I mean, there were some, I remember, uh, seeing in the news that there was an MIT, which is that that's Turkish intelligence for those who don't know what MIT is, but there was a Turkish intelligence, uh, Official who was in Damascus meeting with HGS in in the days following the Assad regime's fall and Turkish Airlines and Qatar Airways were like competing with one another to see who could get the first flight to Damascus.
So. I don't think that Erdogan's government would be too keen on, on an IS style caliphate to the south. I think they're definitely wanting the more, uh, something a bit more [00:57:00] restrained.
Marc Beckman: Collin, Americans are often criticized as truly like not understanding the nature of the Middle East. What would you say Americans should know as it relates to Syria today?
Collin Mayfield: it's a very fragmented country, um. The Northeast is, for the most part, still controlled by an autonomous zone, it's called the Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria, also called Rojava, that is going to be a point of contention in the future. So this, uh, autonomous zone. It's governed by, you know, a mix of Kurds and Arabs.
Critics will say it's a Kurdish ethno state. And the United States maintains, you know, troops, I think it's about 900 troops that the US maintains there. Meanwhile, Other parts of Syria are under a completely different political administration. So, like, when [00:58:00] Assad's Syria fell, on the ground, the situation in, say, like, Qamishli didn't change that much because it's a, like, a Kurdish city.
We're a Kurdish and Arab city in a Kurdish controlled area. So it was already out of control of the regime, minus a few like enclaves within the city. So, I mean, it was already a divided, fractured country before the war, and it still is a divided and fractured country today. It's just the biggest part of it, that Syrian heartland, has changed. uh, rulership
So that's one thing that I would definitely say. Um, it just, it gets confus Syria gets confusing because there's so many different players with interests there, be they Turkey or Russia or Iran or Israel. So it's just, you have to, you have to pay close attention.
Marc Beckman: It just seems like, um, you know, from an outsider's perspective, Syria is in bad [00:59:00] shape. Like, do you think that there's any. Positive outcome with all of this in years to come. Or do you think you'll see, you know, you mentioned that Syria is really divided. Do you think you'll see several entities like formal nations come out of the one nation now, do you think you'll see a lot of, um, a lot more death and destruction?
Like, well, what do we have on the horizon?
Collin Mayfield: Again, it's very, it's very difficult to say, but it's
I don't want to make too many comparisons, but I remember having a conversation with an older colleague of mine, a close friend who's from Iraq, and he was saying that the feeling he has now of this ecstasy and excitement that the regime has gone is very similar to how a lot of You know, Iraqis felt when, especially in like his, his northern area of Mosul, like when, like, Saddam fell.
So there [01:00:00] was a lot of that similar, like, ecstasy of this tyrant being gone. But That can very quickly change, and I, I would hope that Shara genuinely is reformed as he says he is, and I would hope that Hayat Ter el Sham doesn't splinter into a bunch of competing fighting groups. You know, I, I hope that they're able to maintain security and it doesn't devolve into like a second scale of the Syrian civil war.
I'd say worst case scenario, we'd have a, uh, a second stage of the Syrian civil war would be, would be a worst case scenario, best case scenario. There's peace and Syria is able to rebuild and restore its economy. And I think we're going to fall somewhere in between, unfortunately.
Marc Beckman: Yeah. Was there ever a moment in time where you felt like your life was seriously at risk? I know you have, like, you're a very [01:01:00] brave person and, and honestly, like in getting to know you while you were there, I was shocked that you just stayed there for so long. But was there ever a moment, I mean, you really are brave.
I think I told you that
over and over again, but, um, you know, was there ever a moment where you were like, shit, I really need to get out of here. This is not good.
Collin Mayfield: There was one instance like that where I was a bit nervous, so there was, this was on December 8th, it was the first day, and I'd left Umayyad Square and I was trying to go to Assad's palace, I wanted to get inside of Assad's palace, and, uh, it was barricaded off, there were checkpoints with soldiers, and I approached, and we're driving up, I'm trying to get in, and the Soldiers guarding it had very distinctive uniforms and they had a little patch with a black flag that we, uh, we'll all recognize.
And, uh, so all these [01:02:00] And that's something that has not been made clear because you do see lots of, uh, Hayat Shahrul Shahum fighters wearing patches that we in the West would recognize as the patch of the Islamic State. And I've heard people say, oh no, it's just the Shahada. It's like the Taliban has the Shahada on their flag too, but the Taliban flag doesn't look like the ISIS flag.
That's a very specific, stylized version. So I, I saw some soldiers at this checkpoint with these IS flags on, which again, like we talked about how there was the schism, and, uh, Peshawar didn't want to ally with ISIS, so, you know, he declares allegiance with Al Qaeda and becomes Al Nusra. So one thing I'm wondering, and nobody was really ever clear on, is why are there so many fighters within HTS who are still wearing Islamic State patches?
And at the Captagon facility that we were talking about a few minutes ago, there was a, uh, a guy there who was [01:03:00] showing me his camera roll and his Snapchat memories. And he showed me a picture of, uh, him with one of those little ISIS flags on his shoulder on a patch. And he said, That's me when I was in ISIS back in 2015.
So the fact that there are, you know, Islamic State veterans who are now within HTS, some of whom are still wearing those Islamic State patches is very concerning. And I know they're wearing those patches because I mean, I saw them myself many times. And there's one time we're approaching Assad's palace.
And it's all these guys with ISIS patches, and we're trying to go through, and we're arguing that we're journalists, and this one guy comes up to the car, and he's like, Muslim? Like, as a question, and he's got his ISIS patch on his, on his plate carrier, and I'm like, no, Christian, and he's like, oh, so kafir, and he gets pissed, he's, he's getting furious, and he starts calling me a kafir, and that, for those who don't know, that means unbeliever, and I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, not kafir, Christian, [01:04:00] like, and, uh, And he's like starting, starts to like reach into the car, and he's like trying to open the door, and like, and he's like, kept, keeps shouting at me that I'm a kafir, and, uh, and then his commander comes up and like pushes him back, and he's like, no, sahafi, which is Arabic for journalist, so, and then after that, uh, we, we quickly sped off, so it was, uh, and, uh, we quickly sped off, so it was, uh, It was a little bit concerning having a guy with an Islamic State patch calling me an unbeliever, trying to get me to get out of the car until his commander intervened on my behalf and said, no, I'm a journalist, leave me alone.
So that was, that was a little concerning, but I stayed for another month and a half after that.
Marc Beckman: did you see any, um, other than, than the images that you've, you've shared already, like, did you see any, um, uh, like brute force in front of you? Like, did you see any, uh, [01:05:00] any people being shot at or
anything like this?
Collin Mayfield: not. So again, there were, Syria is a much larger country than Lebanon. And. You know, if there, there was unrest in one part of the country, but that doesn't necessarily mean that we were anywhere near it. It's like, while we were there, there were clashes between the Syrian National Army, and, which is backed by Turkey, and, and, uh, the Syrian Democratic Forces in Manbij, and, uh, Uh, so like there, there were clashes up there between those two groups, or like I mentioned earlier, there was the, uh, incident where like HTS, like burned that Christmas tree in Hama or like when the Israelis, you know, invaded in the South and there was a protester I met who was shot through the stomach by the IDF in Kunetra.
So all of these things are happening at the same time, but where I am in Damascus, there was no combat that I was able to see. [01:06:00] And again, I mean, Damascus itself, I mean, it fell without, I mean, there's very little fighting. Well, I mean, Damascus fell basically with no fighting. It was very easy for, for, uh, Hayat Tahrir al Sham to, to take Damascus.
Collin, you, you've been so generous with your time and everything today. Is there anything that we're missing? Is there a story that you'd want to highlight or an experience that you feel needs to be shared before we finish this conversation?
Yeah, I would just say, I would say it was, uh, a monumental experience to say the least. It was one of those periods where decades worth of history can happen within a few days.
Collin Mayfield: And it was just, it was really. Both remarkable and very concerning, uh, all the stuff we saw. I mean, a lot of the stuff we saw in Syria was horrifying and confusing, and there's so many different factions, everything's happening all at once, and as [01:07:00] one rebel group is taking over a country from a regime, a neighboring country is invading to expand its security.
Apparatus. Meanwhile, another country to the north, Turkey is attacking, you know, the Kurds in the Northeast. So it's just, it's such a messy, it was just such a messy situation.
Marc Beckman: Collin,
every guest that comes on my show ends the show with me, um, where I present a lead question and then they finish that question. It's tied into the name of the show, Some Future Day, so it kind of like plays perfectly into this episode. Are you game?
Collin Mayfield: Okay. Yeah, we can give it a shot.
Marc Beckman: Okay. So, I'm looking at your perspective from a wider lens, no pun intended, than just Syria and Lebanon. I mean, you really understand the lay of the land in the Middle East, or at least, you know,
from a person's perspective. Yeah, I know it's [01:08:00] complicated and there, there is a long history there too, but In some future day, the geography, like the mapping of the Middle East will look like.
Collin Mayfield: I think it'll look the exact same. I, nation state borders are not going anywhere. We're unfortunately stuck with the really, really shitty borders we got from Europe after world war II.
Marc Beckman: I agree with you. I actually agree. I, I, I know a lot of people are talking about that. Those borders are going to shift a little bit
over the next four or five years, but
I really find that hard to believe.
Collin Mayfield: No, borders are not shifting at all.
Marc Beckman: Yeah. Well, look, I, I appreciate it. Your, your, um, experiences, tales and stories are, are just so compelling, your images are gorgeous as everybody who's tuning in can see. And, um, you know, I only wish you the best and as I'm sure you're already thinking about your next wild ride somewhere, and I only wish you, you know, the, the most safety possible so that,
you.
know, maybe you come [01:09:00] back and join us again on some future day.
Collin Mayfield: Now I'd be very happy to.
[01:10:00]