Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Intersectional feminist conversations about doing work and life differently. Hosts Becky Mollenkamp and Faith Clarke talk with entrepreneurs, authors, and thinkers about capacity, care, bias, and burnout. We name the systems we're taught to ignore, and imagine what's possible when we stop performing and start being honest.
(00:00:02.370):
Hello everyone!
(00:00:03.711):
Welcome to Feminist Founders.
(00:00:05.272):
I'm excited today to chat live if you're here on Substack Live or you can watch
(00:00:11.095):
this,
(00:00:11.575):
hopefully,
(00:00:12.296):
the replay on YouTube and also on the podcast,
(00:00:14.457):
right?
(00:00:14.657):
Fingers crossed.
(00:00:15.577):
We're doing some experimenting today.
(00:00:17.318):
But if you do join us live,
(00:00:18.459):
I'd love for you to say hello in the chat so that we can get a little live
(00:00:21.120):
interaction.
(00:00:22.181):
But I'm joined today by Dr. Evelyn Carter.
(00:00:24.702):
So excited to have you here.
(00:00:26.463):
You're the
(00:00:30.816):
We have talked a little about a few sort of real life scenarios and other things
(00:00:35.142):
and I was just like,
(00:00:35.683):
I just think this would be a great conversation for our audience and just so you
(00:00:39.268):
know,
(00:00:39.449):
Feminist Founders is people who are
(00:00:42.190):
entrepreneurs many many of them are solopreneurs or maybe have some support in the
(00:00:48.833):
way of like contracted help we do have some folks who have employees as well that's
(00:00:52.874):
a whole other can of worms obviously when we talk about some of the things you talk
(00:00:56.275):
about but I think a lot of these folks are people who are businesses of one but
(00:01:00.377):
ultimately these are people who really care about creating a more equitable world a
(00:01:03.658):
more just and equitable world and are looking for ways to do that that are really
(00:01:07.840):
practical so that's kind of what I want to talk about today but first
(00:01:12.377):
Well, first of all, hi.
(00:01:13.798):
Hi.
(00:01:14.819):
Thanks for being here.
(00:01:16.140):
Thank you for having me.
(00:01:17.421):
Thanks for coming and doing this.
(00:01:19.382):
So I want to start with, this is 2026.
(00:01:23.585):
You and I had talked briefly about the kind of post-2020 reckoning that happened,
(00:01:29.149):
you know,
(00:01:29.509):
in the wake of coming on the end of Trump's first term and all of the
(00:01:35.326):
challenges that have cut that came during his first term little did we know um
(00:01:39.547):
second term would be even worse but um and obviously George Floyd's murder and kind
(00:01:43.588):
of this awakening that many white folks had to something you've known the entirety
(00:01:48.710):
of your life and anyone who looks similar to you has also known the entirety of
(00:01:52.731):
their lives but this awakening to kind of the oh you mean we aren't in fact any
(00:01:57.072):
post-racial America right um
(00:02:00.669):
Yeah I know I'm just like remembering when people were like we're post-racial and I
(00:02:04.171):
was like you guys it's like that's not like no we're not but you know when a black
(00:02:09.214):
when the only black president ever has the biggest scandal because he wore a tan
(00:02:13.236):
suit and then we have a white pedophile in the office now and that's like anyway
(00:02:19.119):
okay so clearly we're not post-racial but that that sort of feeling that I think a
(00:02:22.861):
lot of people woke up to white people woke up to in 2020 you and many other people
(00:02:27.543):
who do DEI work were exceptionally busy for
(00:02:31.116):
A year?
(00:02:32.184):
Yeah.
(00:02:32.527):
Yeah.
(00:02:34.711):
and obviously a lot changed so I just want to sort of start there and get to 2026
(00:02:40.196):
because I'm curious why now for the book obviously in 2020 when you were very busy
(00:02:45.480):
and a lot of people who are doing similar work were there were a lot of books like
(00:02:49.143):
yours you know not the same as yours but a lot of books dealing with issues around
(00:02:53.267):
race written for white folks were coming out at that time what made you not write
(00:02:57.650):
it then and then kind of what has happened over these last six years that you were
(00:03:01.934):
like now's the time
(00:03:03.640):
yeah um it's a great question I didn't know that I wanted to write a book um then
(00:03:09.744):
and so I mean it's there are so many things that are going through my mind as
(00:03:12.886):
you're talking is like I'm reminded of
(00:03:16.435):
how angry and overworked I was during the summer and fall of 2020 because I was
(00:03:22.440):
working at a consulting company and the pandemic had just kind of hit the United
(00:03:27.464):
States in March of that year and so we had seen this like just indiscriminate like
(00:03:33.469):
slashing of DEI teams and budgets and so our company which was focused on
(00:03:38.773):
delivering DEI training and strategy was really struggling
(00:03:43.376):
and we had to do layoffs right there were all of these things that happened and
(00:03:48.499):
then George Floyd was murdered after all of the other murders that had been
(00:03:51.741):
happening right like I was looking back at my just like writing and like really my
(00:03:58.144):
calendar from that time I was like oh there was a lot going on and I was reflecting
(00:04:04.568):
on how it felt like literally I would wake up every single day and be like oh
(00:04:07.749):
there's another person's name that's a hashtag oh no
(00:04:13.597):
anyway when all of that kind of erupted suddenly those clients that had slashed
(00:04:19.758):
their teams and their budgets came back and were begging us to do workshops with
(00:04:23.879):
them and I was really angry because we had just laid off people that we had to go
(00:04:31.561):
then try to get back and the the
(00:04:38.478):
The demand that people suddenly had for real conversations about race and racism
(00:04:45.120):
was like a complete flip from what they had been telling us.
(00:04:49.022):
He was like,
(00:04:49.342):
I couldn't get clients to talk about microaggressions because they said,
(00:04:52.383):
if we have you do a workshop on microaggressions,
(00:04:54.523):
then that is going to be test acknowledgement that we know that microaggressions
(00:04:57.344):
are happening in the workplace.
(00:04:58.765):
It's like, yes, they are.
(00:05:03.926):
Now what?
(00:05:05.107):
Okay.
(00:05:06.162):
and so anyway I'm I'm just remembering I was yeah and and I actually in November of
(00:05:11.585):
2020 ended up having to take a leave of absence from work because of my because my
(00:05:16.107):
mental health was suffering um so much and so anyway I yeah so probably I didn't
(00:05:21.810):
think to write the book then because I was drowning in being you know all of the
(00:05:25.532):
things but what I learned from that experience and kind of that time is that you
(00:05:30.774):
know my dad actually told me he was like
(00:05:33.267):
even he's like you might write a book one day or whatever because like whenever
(00:05:36.189):
something happens to you write it down send yourself a voice note whenever that
(00:05:40.593):
moment is fresh because you're never going to be able to recall all of the same
(00:05:45.396):
feelings later on that you have in that moment and so I actually took his advice so
(00:05:49.840):
I have a lot of writing from that time and so they did make their way into my book
(00:05:55.694):
but ultimately the reason for why now is that it was this wonderful kind of
(00:06:01.378):
serendipitous just thing that happened I had been scrolling on Instagram I followed
(00:06:07.163):
Little Brown Spark which is an imprint of Little Brown which is a subset of
(00:06:10.865):
Hachette the publishing world is so interesting as I have learned
(00:06:16.388):
and they had a post calling for uh people who are underrepresented in the field of
(00:06:23.193):
publishing who had psychology degrees who wanted to publish a popular press
(00:06:27.096):
non-fiction book but had never published anything before and they were like if this
(00:06:31.620):
is you please submit your proposal and I was like like this is me um
(00:06:39.022):
and so I submitted my proposal I got the award that then led to me getting
(00:06:45.329):
connected with an agent who then negotiated my actual book deal and so you know I
(00:06:51.336):
actually didn't identify as a writer I
(00:06:57.295):
Remember thinking like I mean I came from academia and so I had a hard time kind of
(00:07:01.738):
writing in the academic style at the kind of pace that is typically required to get
(00:07:06.121):
tenure and so that I think really did a number on me I didn't think like I didn't
(00:07:10.363):
identify as an author and somebody actually said they're like you really like
(00:07:13.606):
talking so you know maybe you just think about doing talks instead of writing and
(00:07:19.489):
what actually helped me with my book is that I wrote it like I talk and so I
(00:07:24.143):
Yeah, but so why now?
(00:07:25.304):
Because Little Brown Spark and Psychotherapy Networker combined to put out a call
(00:07:30.949):
for people like me and I said yes and here we are.
(00:07:36.213):
I did not anticipate it would be coming out in this climate.
(00:07:43.260):
I have worked at places that
(00:07:46.891):
will not even say the title of my book because the company does not say the word
(00:07:52.115):
racism and racist.
(00:07:54.997):
And there have been places that,
(00:07:56.658):
you know,
(00:07:56.918):
clients of mine who had previously been talking about how they would love to have
(00:08:00.180):
me come and talk to their company and whatnot,
(00:08:02.241):
that it's been radio silence since then.
(00:08:05.964):
So it's an interesting time, but I'm really proud that my book is out there.
(00:08:11.640):
Well, I think it's needed.
(00:08:13.281):
And I think the timing is probably serendipitous in many ways that this all worked
(00:08:18.265):
out because,
(00:08:20.007):
I mean,
(00:08:20.647):
the only time we needed the book more was yesterday and then the day before that,
(00:08:23.870):
right?
(00:08:24.230):
Yeah.
(00:08:25.772):
And like to your point,
(00:08:26.592):
you said that there were a lot of books that were,
(00:08:28.294):
you know,
(00:08:28.614):
kind of came out in 2020 or that people kind of rediscovered around that time.
(00:08:33.058):
And I have often described my book as
(00:08:36.348):
Becky Mollenkamp Feminist Founders
(00:08:49.239):
was very adamant with my editor.
(00:08:51.361):
I was like, I'm not going to spend time in my book convincing people that racism exists.
(00:08:55.365):
That's not what this book is going to be about.
(00:08:57.828):
In the introduction, I tell you racism is real.
(00:09:01.251):
I also tell you that racism against white people is not a thing.
(00:09:05.095):
That's the introduction.
(00:09:07.497):
What we spend time doing is unpacking
(00:09:09.919):
how racism shows up in the variety of ways that it does and why people from
(00:09:14.702):
different racial groups like people in particular might not be as attuned to some
(00:09:18.164):
of those ways that it shows up and then what to do about it so yeah very
(00:09:22.226):
evidence-based very tactical and also a little bit funny one of the reviews that I
(00:09:28.250):
got was like if you've read one book like this you've read them all and I was like
(00:09:31.131):
but this book was written by Dr.
(00:09:32.532):
Evelyn Carter and I am confident that you have never read a book written by me so
(00:09:36.054):
yeah
(00:09:36.823):
there you go and that is the confidence that we all need to be bringing into every
(00:09:39.986):
room most especially a lot of time to get there yeah my husband of course they
(00:09:44.170):
don't know what they're talking about you're you and I was like that's well I mean
(00:09:47.092):
going back to racism because you know part of the premise is this is and what
(00:09:52.377):
you're saying here is it's not for people for whom racism only means you're using a
(00:09:57.622):
slur
(00:09:58.442):
Becky Mollenkamp
(00:10:17.115):
Yeah.
(00:10:39.375):
and I want to get into some of the specifics of that but let's start then because I
(00:10:42.758):
think we had talked about a specific incident that you have had recently because I
(00:10:47.863):
I think for those folks who sort of feel like hey I put up my black square on
(00:10:52.267):
Instagram in 2020 if you remember that whole thing I do remember and I wore the
(00:10:57.412):
pink pussy hat years before so I've always been a feminist and I and I've always
(00:11:01.176):
been an ally and all of these things yeah yeah
(00:11:03.855):
and they sort of are maybe thinking like I've been there I've done that I checked
(00:11:06.796):
the box I want to paint some pictures of just like this stuff is it's we are not
(00:11:12.099):
post-racial the world has not changed significantly since 2020 and if it has I
(00:11:18.142):
think there's an argument to be made that it's only that it's gotten worse not
(00:11:20.963):
better and I yeah okay good you're shaking it you're like yes so that's good so
(00:11:25.585):
let's talk about this specific example because I want to you know as much as we can
(00:11:28.746):
sort of stay in the professional space since most of our
(00:11:32.575):
Readers are people who are,
(00:11:33.756):
you know,
(00:11:34.217):
owning businesses and are wanting to think about these issues through that lens.
(00:11:37.380):
So you're part of a, you were, you attended a networking event, I believe it was, and then...
(00:11:43.424):
had to leave.
(00:11:44.004):
So talk,
(00:11:44.525):
if you can't just talk us through what happened,
(00:11:46.546):
because I think it's probably an example there of,
(00:11:48.968):
I don't know,
(00:11:49.748):
you can tell us whether it's micro or macro.
(00:11:51.970):
Yeah, yeah.
(00:11:53.571):
I think it's, well, we'll see.
(00:11:55.872):
I sometimes on Instagram, I have a series.
(00:11:57.533):
I haven't done one in a while, actually, but I do a like, was that racist series?
(00:12:00.695):
And I tell people a story and then I'm like,
(00:12:02.537):
I know what I would say,
(00:12:03.297):
but I'm curious about your question or your answer.
(00:12:05.098):
Like, was that racist?
(00:12:06.940):
Sometimes the answer that I would give is yes.
(00:12:08.521):
Sometimes it's no.
(00:12:09.541):
In this case, definitely racist.
(00:12:11.903):
So what happened, I had been invited to join a space that was for women authors.
(00:12:18.615):
And you said something that is very...
(00:12:21.460):
Coignant I think when you were like there is something that is special about you as
(00:12:24.561):
a black woman saying like you've never read a book by like by me before um that is
(00:12:28.683):
also important for you as a woman to say but that is different as a white woman
(00:12:31.624):
versus and I and that that knowledge of the ways in which our identities are
(00:12:35.906):
similar in terms of our gender but are different because our gender experience is
(00:12:40.468):
very much shaped by our race um it's something that was missing in this space um
(00:12:45.834):
and so it was a group for and I was excited about it because I had been trying to
(00:12:50.417):
network with other women who were authors and I actually made some great
(00:12:53.099):
connections in there but basically what drew me to the space was that they had this
(00:12:59.363):
wonderful set of agreements up front and so before you were even nominated you had
(00:13:05.847):
to review like here is what here are the rules of engagement here and I
(00:13:11.369):
they were comprehensive and they were fantastic and so I was like okay these people
(00:13:15.351):
have put a lot of thought and energy into creating a space that is you know gonna
(00:13:20.474):
be like-minded people who are all aligned on the same principles for how we engage
(00:13:27.998):
and I really love that I'm a big fan of like setting norms and agreements for
(00:13:31.620):
anything that you do even like my book club and so
(00:13:36.982):
There was an exchange between two members where somebody made basically an offhand
(00:13:42.746):
comment that when I read it,
(00:13:44.968):
I was like,
(00:13:45.328):
oh,
(00:13:46.389):
it's not great.
(00:13:49.792):
And maybe they were speaking from their personal experience, right?
(00:13:53.094):
Maybe not.
(00:13:53.654):
But it was like to the tune of like, all dogs hate cats, but it was about people.
(00:13:59.839):
But it was that same level of like,
(00:14:01.862):
Everybody from this group exists in this way, and therefore, I don't deal with dogs.
(00:14:08.224):
And there was somebody else who I actually know who responded and was like,
(00:14:12.565):
that was kind of an ouch moment for me.
(00:14:14.785):
Like, I didn't love that.
(00:14:17.406):
And so I saw that exchange.
(00:14:21.087):
This is online.
(00:14:21.727):
And I was like, oh, my God, what a beautiful opportunity to live together.
(00:14:29.316):
The norms and agreements that we all signed up for because there was somebody who
(00:14:33.097):
said something,
(00:14:33.717):
somebody else responded and was like,
(00:14:35.038):
ouch,
(00:14:35.658):
like,
(00:14:35.798):
you know,
(00:14:36.538):
just a quick like,
(00:14:37.178):
hey.
(00:14:38.199):
And this could be an opportunity for the person to say, oops, let me try again.
(00:14:42.440):
That is not what they did.
(00:14:43.921):
They doubled down.
(00:14:44.721):
They said, well, actually, in my experience, all dogs do hate cats.
(00:14:48.682):
And I am right to not want to deal with dogs.
(00:14:51.203):
And actually, you're making me feel really bad for saying that I don't like dogs.
(00:14:54.624):
And I feel like that's actually racist more so than the thing that I said.
(00:14:59.738):
so then I watched that and I was like uh oh and um it bothered me it bothered me I
(00:15:05.844):
talked to my husband about it I showed the exchange I talked to my mom like I
(00:15:09.008):
talked to a lot of people about this exchange and I was waiting for somebody
(00:15:15.214):
perhaps the co-creators of this group to chime in and when they did
(00:15:22.563):
They said, it's better to take these conversations offline.
(00:15:25.886):
Hey, person who said that this was an ouch moment, you shouldn't have responded at all.
(00:15:31.151):
And so then I replied.
(00:15:32.211):
So I was like, well, here we are.
(00:15:33.793):
And I want to actually note something,
(00:15:37.656):
which is that I am very aware that when I go into spaces,
(00:15:41.279):
I'm a Black woman.
(00:15:42.240):
I'm very opinionated.
(00:15:43.001):
I'm loud.
(00:15:43.361):
I'm five foot two and a half.
(00:15:44.262):
But like, I'm vibrant.
(00:15:46.245):
I also don't want to always have to be the quote unquote DEI voice in a space.
(00:15:52.169):
And so I was happy to join this group of other women authors.
(00:15:57.412):
I did not want to join as the DEI person.
(00:16:02.455):
And yet, I put on my DEI person hat because I knew that this was a problem.
(00:16:07.218):
And I said,
(00:16:07.738):
hey,
(00:16:08.759):
I'm actually really thankful that this person responded publicly and said,
(00:16:13.161):
ouch,
(00:16:13.482):
because
(00:16:14.733):
Everybody needs to, you know, this is how we create community.
(00:16:17.534):
This is how we learn.
(00:16:19.014):
I actually talk about this in my book.
(00:16:20.735):
Was that racist, right?
(00:16:23.236):
And crickets.
(00:16:26.757):
And so then I sent a message to the co-creators of the group and I said,
(00:16:32.999):
hey,
(00:16:33.239):
like this is an opportunity for you to reset on what our norms are.
(00:16:37.500):
And in fact, like remind people, like we said, we're a community.
(00:16:41.042):
We're always learning.
(00:16:42.657):
um and perhaps this is an opportunity to revise the norms so that we can be more
(00:16:48.880):
specific about what happens when somebody you know has one of those learning
(00:16:52.643):
moments in public and one of the people responded and she was like I'm just not
(00:16:56.425):
sure what you want me to do about this and I was like I was pretty clear I actually
(00:17:03.128):
detailed for you exactly what to do um and I I'm very proud of myself because I
(00:17:08.611):
then responded and I said
(00:17:10.430):
The fact that you gave this hopeless response is an example of the white feminism
(00:17:16.471):
that I am not here for.
(00:17:17.451):
And I was like, I have too many spaces in my life where I have to tiptoe and be like that.
(00:17:21.432):
And I was like, I appreciate what this group could offer, but like, this ain't it.
(00:17:25.333):
And I left.
(00:17:26.993):
I did find out later that actually one of the co-founders did,
(00:17:30.294):
or co-coast group,
(00:17:31.314):
did send a message to the group,
(00:17:34.114):
like basically talking about how they were going to revise the language and
(00:17:38.095):
how they were going to, and also like referencing my book, which I thought was very cool.
(00:17:43.913):
But for me, it was too little too late.
(00:17:46.039):
one thing that I will say I appreciate is that the person who had invited me to
(00:17:49.040):
that group to begin with is a white woman and she was on the thread that I had sent
(00:17:54.463):
and she did chime in and say hey I think what Evelyn is saying is da da da da and
(00:17:59.425):
so I do appreciate that even in that moment there was some allyship that was coming
(00:18:03.087):
from the person who invited me into the space right perhaps because she was aware
(00:18:06.549):
that like as a white woman she was inviting me into a space with other white women
(00:18:09.510):
who were white womening and she was like guys get it together
(00:18:14.479):
But anyway, that was the situation.
(00:18:15.840):
And so what I think the takeaway from that is when we are setting up any kind of
(00:18:22.382):
community or event or situation or gathering,
(00:18:26.964):
it's lovely to have norms that say how that govern how we are going to engage in
(00:18:32.186):
the space ideally.
(00:18:34.847):
What we also need to be prepared for is when people want to use those norms to
(00:18:38.688):
create and sustain the safe space that you were promising with those norms and
(00:18:43.330):
agreements.
(00:18:44.377):
And that safe space may and will come at the expense of the comfort of other
(00:18:50.861):
people,
(00:18:51.221):
particularly those from dominant groups,
(00:18:53.002):
and that's okay.
(00:18:54.603):
And in that moment,
(00:18:55.444):
ultimately,
(00:18:56.064):
what the group chose is the comfort of the person who had made the comment,
(00:19:00.967):
then protecting the psychological safety for everybody else,
(00:19:04.569):
particularly the folks of color.
(00:19:06.750):
And that's not cool.
(00:19:07.971):
So that was what happened.
(00:19:10.122):
Okay, good.
(00:19:10.663):
There's so much here we can talk about.
(00:19:11.684):
So first of all,
(00:19:13.086):
one of the things that I say as somebody who does a lot of community creation and
(00:19:16.932):
space building is I always like to,
(00:19:20.617):
one,
(00:19:21.298):
when I'm in a space like that where there's a lot of folks in the room and I'm
(00:19:24.824):
traveling.
(00:19:25.104):
I think it's really valuable to enter a space acknowledging your blind spots.
(00:19:34.518):
So to say,
(00:19:35.599):
I am a white woman,
(00:19:36.881):
and with that identity and the privilege that comes with that identity,
(00:19:39.705):
I know.
(00:19:40.106):
Yes
(00:19:57.565):
Feminist
(00:20:18.283):
the piece that I often see missing is that second part of harm repair it's like
(00:20:22.684):
here's how we want to show up but there's no thought about and then as you see when
(00:20:27.905):
it happens there's no plan for or process for what do we do when something actually
(00:20:32.567):
doesn't live up to these ideas right and so I'm guessing were they lacking the harm
(00:20:36.367):
repair process in that okay and I think and I would say even like from what I
(00:20:41.149):
recall of the of the kind of norms and kind of they had it
(00:20:47.420):
built in.
(00:20:48.041):
What I actually think they were missing was the follow-through on the
(00:20:50.743):
accountability piece,
(00:20:51.744):
right?
(00:20:51.944):
Which accountability is my favorite word because that's often what's missing is
(00:20:55.287):
that,
(00:20:55.447):
you know,
(00:20:55.708):
we can say,
(00:20:57.089):
so for example,
(00:20:58.090):
I work with a lot of corporations and as I'm sure you are aware and have
(00:21:03.375):
experienced,
(00:21:04.075):
interrupting is like rampant within corporate culture.
(00:21:07.899):
I will say as somebody who grew up in a Black
(00:21:13.418):
Anywho
(00:21:31.223):
What research has shown is that the kind of interrupting of like,
(00:21:35.347):
I'm building my tower and then I'm going to come knock yours down happens a lot to
(00:21:38.549):
women in corporate spaces.
(00:21:41.752):
And so when I'm working with companies, first of all, I share this data.
(00:21:45.735):
And of course, like the men in the room are like, what?
(00:21:47.377):
This happens?
(00:21:48.097):
And then the women in the room are like, yeah, it just did.
(00:21:50.980):
There's actually one time where the guy who was like literally the worst offender
(00:21:54.583):
of interrupting in the company was like,
(00:21:57.538):
I did not know this was possible and I could just see the steam rising off of
(00:22:03.622):
anyway so what I say to them is you know it's one thing to have a norm that says
(00:22:08.085):
don't interrupt it's an entirely different thing to have a norm that says do not
(00:22:12.308):
interrupt and when you do here is what is going to happen and then actually do that
(00:22:17.011):
thing right so if you start interrupting Becky and then I say please stop and then
(00:22:25.657):
you keep going
(00:22:27.438):
that doesn't actually live up to the norm right so instead what I tell people is
(00:22:31.539):
you need to practice being like hey when you interrupt I'm going to say Becky let's
(00:22:35.760):
let Evelyn finish her thought and then you can chime in if you would like and if
(00:22:39.962):
you keep it no let's wait and let Evelyn finish her thought right and as I'm saying
(00:22:44.943):
this reminding me of how much I have to repeat myself with my three-year-old but as
(00:22:48.024):
I told somebody recently three-year-olds and 30-year-olds don't have a lot of
(00:22:50.505):
difference differences between them
(00:22:52.650):
But yeah,
(00:22:53.110):
so the follow-through on the what happens when the norms are violated and then
(00:22:57.971):
making sure that you are actually doing that thing is really what was missing in
(00:23:01.252):
this space and in a lot of spaces because I think it's hard to realize like,
(00:23:06.133):
oh no,
(00:23:07.493):
I have to chime in and like be the moderator.
(00:23:10.534):
But that role is so crucial.
(00:23:16.735):
And in fact, I'm
(00:23:18.651):
a part of another group of black women authors that is now under development and
(00:23:23.234):
during one of our first meetings when we were just kind of like throwing ideas
(00:23:26.595):
around about what we wanted space to be I was like hey we need to have some strong
(00:23:30.117):
community agreements and some people who are designated moderators who are going to
(00:23:34.039):
follow through on those things I am happy to be one of those people because it's
(00:23:38.241):
very important to me it's hard to do but it's the only way that you create a
(00:23:42.663):
community that people actually want to stick around in yeah
(00:23:47.426):
I love all of that and the other piece of what you had said earlier that I wanted
(00:23:50.771):
to also just throw out my thoughts and either get your reaction or we don't have to
(00:23:55.558):
is talking about safe space and
(00:24:00.077):
I,
(00:24:00.357):
as a white woman,
(00:24:01.218):
have come to a place after doing a lot of work and by no means saying that I have
(00:24:06.784):
checked off the box of anti-racism work because I know it's a lifelong journey You
(00:24:10.447):
did it!
(00:24:11.548):
I'm done!
(00:24:11.949):
Yay!
(00:24:12.289):
A plus!
(00:24:13.010):
Gold star!
(00:24:14.591):
But knowing that I'm pretty far down my journey at this point and have done quite a
(00:24:17.594):
bit of work,
(00:24:19.256):
I have come to this conclusion that
(00:24:21.985):
I don't think I can ever create a safe space for black women I think I can create
(00:24:25.687):
safer spaces but I don't think I can ever create a safe space and not just for
(00:24:29.389):
black women also for disabled women for folks who have identities I don't hold for
(00:24:33.611):
trans women you know I'm queer but I'm not trans I can't understand that experience
(00:24:38.254):
and I don't think any amount of
(00:24:40.587):
My own unlearning will ever give me the, I'll never have the living experience, right?
(00:24:45.454):
I just,
(00:24:46.075):
I think there will always be the opportunity and probably the reality of harm that
(00:24:50.562):
I will cause.
(00:24:51.764):
And so I don't think that when you know that there is that, that you can actually create a C.
(00:24:55.909):
but I do think the aim of trying to create safer spaces feels better and I see you
(00:25:00.470):
smiling and that makes me feel good because other black women I've said that to
(00:25:02.891):
have said that it actually feels really like that actually feels almost more
(00:25:06.572):
invitational than somebody who's saying I'm creating a safe space for black women
(00:25:11.293):
as a white woman so I would just love your feedback on that because that's kind of
(00:25:14.014):
where I've been sitting lately yeah it makes me smile because what I'm thinking of
(00:25:18.855):
actually is a white woman that I worked with um
(00:25:23.867):
I'm a
(00:25:50.704):
who was like fairly quiet and I was like do you have any idea what we're talking
(00:25:53.446):
about and they were like no and they're like but go ahead like keep going and it
(00:25:58.191):
was this wonderful moment where I was like they are not making me pause and explain
(00:26:06.958):
something to them because they feel left out of Black culture.
(00:26:11.059):
They're realizing that if they don't know,
(00:26:13.080):
they can do the Googling on their own or they can just kind of observe and watch.
(00:26:16.641):
This doesn't need to be a conversation that they have to actively participate in
(00:26:20.723):
between these two Black folks,
(00:26:21.723):
right?
(00:26:22.283):
And it was this wonderfully safe feeling that it gave me knowing that.
(00:26:27.625):
And so I do think that for all of us who are trying to create spaces where people
(00:26:33.987):
from a variety of backgrounds are going to interact,
(00:26:36.880):
That knowledge that we can always do our best to create a safer environment,
(00:26:40.582):
but we are never going to be completely safe is great.
(00:26:44.944):
And I think it's really fascinating because I can hear the people who are like, but I am safe.
(00:26:48.987):
Like, I want you to know, like, I am a safe space.
(00:26:50.828):
I'm an ally.
(00:26:52.128):
But what I am hearing from you is that you are always doing your best.
(00:26:57.158):
to be open and to, you know, to do what you think makes sense.
(00:27:02.620):
But there are always going to be things that you don't consider because you're not
(00:27:07.262):
a part of our group and you don't have that lived experience that you can draw
(00:27:10.444):
from.
(00:27:12.004):
And so what I think really makes a space safe is the willingness to say,
(00:27:18.467):
I'm going to do my very best and here is how you can know that I have done the
(00:27:22.449):
prerequisite work necessary to make this like minimum good,
(00:27:26.751):
right?
(00:27:27.705):
and also that I am always going to be open to your feedback and that when you give
(00:27:32.207):
it to me,
(00:27:32.687):
I'm not going to lash out.
(00:27:34.308):
I'm not going to tell you that it's just as racist to call me out as the thing that
(00:27:39.150):
I said and that that's how you kind of like bit by bit build safety.
(00:27:45.473):
What I will also say,
(00:27:46.653):
though,
(00:27:47.173):
is that I am very adamant about the fact that some people deserve safe spaces and
(00:27:54.877):
other people don't.
(00:27:57.281):
need to have courage and do not.
(00:28:00.002):
Some people, like, I feel like 10 years ago it was like safe space versus brave space.
(00:28:03.263):
I don't know.
(00:28:04.343):
There's a lot of jargon out there.
(00:28:06.404):
But basically what it boils down to for me is that if you are a person in a
(00:28:11.066):
dominant group or have a dominant identity,
(00:28:14.287):
the world is created for you.
(00:28:16.687):
And what that means is that your safety is kind of the default.
(00:28:21.609):
If you are somebody from a marginalized group, that is not the case.
(00:28:25.178):
And so when I go into various spaces,
(00:28:29.183):
I'm brave every day just existing in this world as a Black woman.
(00:28:33.788):
What I need in these spaces is to feel safe,
(00:28:36.932):
to feel like I can proverbially take my bra off,
(00:28:40.256):
let my hair down and just ugh,
(00:28:41.878):
right?
(00:28:43.007):
If you are somebody that is existing with safety as your default,
(00:28:46.934):
then you are going to find that the things that make me feel safe might be things
(00:28:51.963):
that make you feel challenged because you are confronting a different reality.
(00:28:57.021):
And so your safety as a dominant group person is not the priority.
(00:29:01.445):
Your courage, your bravery, your willingness to accept that discomfort is.
(00:29:06.169):
And that actually is how you create safety for me and in turn create safety for
(00:29:12.314):
yourself too because we realize that we can trust each other as we are learning and
(00:29:16.158):
growing together.
(00:29:17.279):
But that's something that I think is really important.
(00:29:19.080):
But yeah, I just, I love
(00:29:21.017):
I love the acknowledgement that like I might not be a safe space and but I'm always
(00:29:27.298):
going to try to be safer every day.
(00:29:29.879):
Yeah well I want to get into discomfort so this is perfect because one of the
(00:29:33.620):
reasons I know that I'm at least not yet can't be a fully safe space is because I
(00:29:37.921):
do still when I get called in or when I am challenged or when something comes up my
(00:29:44.783):
go-to sensation in my body is different from this.
(00:29:49.304):
It is
(00:29:51.224):
Right?
(00:29:51.484):
That feeling of like, uh-oh, discomfort has arisen and I need to fight off the discomfort.
(00:29:57.949):
And as you experience in that writer's group you're talking about,
(00:30:00.651):
often that looks like,
(00:30:01.612):
for some white women,
(00:30:02.473):
I think it can look like the defensiveness can show up as like pushing back.
(00:30:07.236):
Sometimes it can look like the...
(00:30:11.050):
the tears show up right like a bad person right let me make you now coddle comfort
(00:30:17.295):
me sometimes I could look like just I'm gonna escape because I can't be with this
(00:30:21.078):
discomfort but the discomfort showing up isn't the problem the discomfort is
(00:30:26.582):
conditioned and I'm excited to hear what you have to say here but I can I'm sure
(00:30:30.065):
you're probably like yeah the discomfort is gonna be there right because that is
(00:30:33.467):
because I saw in something you wrote about like how white folks aren't socialized
(00:30:37.330):
Ruffing Feathers
(00:31:07.250):
you got sharp elbows right let's take that offline oh my god all of that so
(00:31:12.702):
probably seeing why corporate America and I didn't get along it's the worst right
(00:31:17.484):
but that immediate reaction isn't it's a problem but it isn't really the problem
(00:31:23.226):
the problem is how are you with that reaction what happens when the reaction shows
(00:31:28.308):
up and I think that's important for white people to hear that like because I think
(00:31:32.209):
too often what we think we're supposed like oh if I'm still showing up like that
(00:31:35.570):
then I'm bad right and then that isn't the work the work isn't to say how do I make
(00:31:41.152):
sure there's never going to be discomfort about these issues
(00:31:44.113):
Yeah, yeah.
(00:32:03.902):
I have a role here,
(00:32:04.682):
a responsibility here as a person with privilege in the room to not make Evelyn
(00:32:08.824):
have to be the one who always has this conversation,
(00:32:11.225):
right?
(00:32:11.805):
So just,
(00:32:12.806):
I would love to hear some of your thoughts about politeness and professionalism and
(00:32:17.528):
just white discomfort and how that is keeping us from actually being allies.
(00:32:23.710):
Yes.
(00:32:24.371):
Okay.
(00:32:24.671):
So I was recently...
(00:32:28.272):
I was making updates to my website and I was going back to one of the first popular
(00:32:33.119):
press articles I wrote,
(00:32:34.120):
which is about the Starbucks training.
(00:32:36.443):
Remember when Starbucks shut down all of their cafes for day-long training?
(00:32:40.929):
And I
(00:32:45.430):
the headline which I did not pick but it was brilliant is Starbucks diversity
(00:32:49.416):
training won't work unless it makes white people uncomfortable and I I still
(00:32:54.644):
remember being like kudos to the editor for like really seeing exactly the thesis
(00:32:59.631):
of what my
(00:33:00.372):
And I'll see you next time.
(00:33:28.300):
But yeah, so chapter two talks all about discomfort.
(00:33:30.861):
And what I love actually is, and I'm a social psychologist, so research is like my jam.
(00:33:35.283):
And there's a lot of research on what's called the self-regulation of prejudice.
(00:33:40.665):
And it's interesting to me because I am a mom of a three and a half year old and a
(00:33:45.087):
one and a half year old.
(00:33:45.787):
And with my three and a half year old, we're actually working a lot on self-regulation, right?
(00:33:49.308):
Like with her emotions.
(00:33:51.160):
and basically what it is for her is noticing that when her body feels activated,
(00:33:56.802):
when she's like responding because there's something happening that she doesn't
(00:33:59.543):
like,
(00:34:00.263):
teaching her that the reaction should not be that she flops on the ground and just
(00:34:04.324):
wails.
(00:34:05.885):
And to be frank,
(00:34:08.225):
lots of white people have the emotion regulation skills of a three-year-old when it
(00:34:13.547):
comes to conversations about racism.
(00:34:15.248):
So all the things that you were just saying are
(00:34:16.953):
the discomfort they like are proverbially or like sometimes literally wailing right
(00:34:21.875):
and so the thing that I've got research is that it has looked at the ways that
(00:34:28.417):
people respond when they are told that they have done or said something that is
(00:34:33.239):
biased and there's this counterintuitive finding that when you are receive that
(00:34:39.421):
feedback people who turn those feelings inward who are disappointed in themselves
(00:34:45.663):
who
(00:34:46.185):
who are feeling ashamed or guilty,
(00:34:49.786):
those are the people that actually change their behavior for the better for the
(00:34:53.348):
future.
(00:34:54.488):
People who turn those emotions outward and feel angry at the person or upset with
(00:35:01.171):
them,
(00:35:01.651):
those are the ones who lash out.
(00:35:03.511):
And so what that means is that we have to find a way to notice that the discomfort
(00:35:09.734):
in our body is a sign that we need to pause.
(00:35:12.835):
And so the same thing that I tell my three-year-old applies here.
(00:35:16.460):
Take a deep breath Notice what's happening in your body If you feel like you're
(00:35:21.683):
going to cry and you're a white woman don't put your tears on the other person step
(00:35:25.246):
away and come back and learn to verbalize why you're feeling the way that you are
(00:35:33.671):
feeling without centering yourself You're not feeling discomfort because they made
(00:35:39.175):
you feel bad You are feeling this way because you learned that you did something
(00:35:46.362):
Becky Mollenkamp
(00:36:09.637):
and I she was like ow mama you scratched me and my instinct still was like I didn't
(00:36:16.039):
mean it but instead what I said is you're right I did I'm very sorry I need to slow
(00:36:22.520):
down and she said yeah mama you need to slow down next time and so that is my way
(00:36:28.261):
of with her letting her know I recognize that I did harm I am going to tell you the
(00:36:33.023):
solution which is I'm going to slow down not say to you I didn't mean to because at
(00:36:37.104):
the end of the day her leg was scratched right
(00:36:39.467):
So all of this is a roundabout way of talking about how discomfort in conversations
(00:36:43.228):
about racism is something that we need to learn to sit with and that white people
(00:36:46.769):
in particular who have been socialized to be like polite and whatnot.
(00:36:50.050):
Really what that is,
(00:36:51.270):
is a rejection of the idea that I need to hold that discomfort in myself and learn
(00:36:57.272):
how to process it.
(00:36:58.712):
And what the research shows is that when you get good at doing that,
(00:37:02.213):
that's actually how you change your behavior to prevent those similar things from
(00:37:05.374):
happening again in the future.
(00:37:08.286):
I mean yeah I just I love it I'm thinking about my kid and you know I think so many
(00:37:13.749):
of us were parented in the ways that we are also now showing up with racism many of
(00:37:20.372):
the way you're talking about parenting is how I parent that's not how many of us
(00:37:23.394):
were parented we were gaslit by our parents we were you know all of the things we
(00:37:28.917):
were like oh shut up get over it it's not a big deal I didn't mean to do it
(00:37:33.139):
whatever right and we
(00:37:35.730):
are often doing that to other people and I think it's again it's because like you
(00:37:38.871):
said socialize these are learned behaviors and I think that might be part of the
(00:37:43.152):
problem that many white folks have is because for them that word racism is so
(00:37:47.593):
charged as it should be because guess what oh I like that yeah think about on the
(00:37:52.575):
other side of that living with that experience where we make it so charged for us
(00:37:56.056):
as if it's the worst thing that we could be called but think about living on the
(00:37:58.216):
other side of it but I think because that word is so charged and
(00:38:01.513):
like we were avoiding it like hot coal right like I just I can't have that near me
(00:38:06.896):
and so we end up resorting to or just like falling in with those learned behaviors
(00:38:11.638):
and in those moments it's really hard to
(00:38:15.117):
Show up as that person you want to be right it can be really hard to put your the
(00:38:19.678):
things that you sort of have learned through book learning or whatever because we
(00:38:23.999):
we aren't learning it necessarily through lived experience we resort to that like
(00:38:27.460):
immediate socialized response of yeah no no it wasn't me and I didn't mean to and
(00:38:32):
whatever and I think for white women in particular that experience of the crying
(00:38:36.201):
and I think um I mean maybe rather than me talking about I would love for you to no
(00:38:41.162):
no it's great I'm enjoying yeah well just why that's so
(00:38:44.748):
Becky Mollenkamp Feminist Founders
(00:39:02.050):
it's okay it is much better for you to say I need a few minutes and then I will
(00:39:05.691):
come back and I want to deal with this I want to talk about this than it is to show
(00:39:09.253):
up and cry in those moments or in any other way center yourself but just explain
(00:39:14.775):
that really quick for white women who don't yet understand why that's so important
(00:39:18.957):
yeah um the the simplest reason is because when you cry people care that you're
(00:39:25.639):
upset and
(00:39:29.912):
That takes away from the initial thing that caused you to cry in the first place,
(00:39:34.414):
which is that I'm upset,
(00:39:36.714):
right?
(00:39:37.395):
So if I say to you,
(00:39:42.156):
Becky,
(00:39:42.937):
the thing that you,
(00:39:43.837):
you know,
(00:39:44.457):
you made a comment that really made me feel small and,
(00:39:49.119):
you know,
(00:39:49.799):
and less than,
(00:39:51.279):
and it felt like a micro,
(00:39:52.560):
maybe a macroaggression,
(00:39:54.561):
and you say,
(00:39:57.662):
and you start crying,
(00:40:00.146):
Everything in the room is going to shift toward making you,
(00:40:05.350):
with this very visible,
(00:40:06.811):
very big display of sadness and hurt,
(00:40:10.313):
be taken care of.
(00:40:11.314):
Yeah.
(00:40:13.215):
And nobody is taking care of me.
(00:40:16.437):
And at the end of the day, as you said, experiencing racism is worse than being called racist.
(00:40:22.601):
I promise you.
(00:40:23.402):
That is true.
(00:40:25.377):
but when we shift to caring about your tears what we are saying is that at a
(00:40:30.399):
minimum the experience of being called racist is as bad if not worse than
(00:40:35.341):
experiencing racism and often what happens is that the energy shifts so much to the
(00:40:41.223):
white woman's tears that we never get back to the person who was saying at the
(00:40:45.244):
beginning I was harmed so that's why the tears are so frustrating I also
(00:40:55.839):
I think it's important to note that some of this is just stereotypes as well so we
(00:41:02.981):
just saw and I actually did not see it because I wasn't watching that shit but we
(00:41:07.043):
just saw collectively right the UFC fighter who yes something and then was like you
(00:41:15.486):
know said Michelle Obama is a man which like what are we doing like dude it's 2026
(00:41:20.167):
find a new freaking punching bag but at any rate
(00:41:24.427):
The notion that black women are not feminine,
(00:41:28.809):
are not women,
(00:41:34.292):
goes back to slavery and far,
(00:41:36.713):
right?
(00:41:36.893):
Like this idea that we are workhorses and we're manly and we don't feel pain in the
(00:41:43.396):
same way as white women do.
(00:41:45.177):
Like all of that is why white tears
(00:41:50.102):
White Female Tears are so dangerous because it is reinforcing that you,
(00:41:55.825):
this tiny little precious white woman,
(00:41:58.706):
are being attacked by the angry,
(00:42:00.327):
aggressive black woman and you need to be protected at all costs.
(00:42:04.289):
And that does so much harm because it reinforces this idea that you are precious
(00:42:10.352):
and feminine and I am not.
(00:42:12.573):
And so that's like the white tears in the moment are harmful because it's shifting
(00:42:17.016):
the focus of who needs to be taken care of.
(00:42:19.937):
But in the broader sense,
(00:42:21.398):
it really is tapping into this,
(00:42:23.758):
like,
(00:42:24.519):
centuries-long narrative that white women are,
(00:42:29.260):
you know,
(00:42:29.600):
need to be protected from the angry,
(00:42:31.801):
aggressive black women.
(00:42:33.102):
And that I just, like, I have no patience for.
(00:42:36.203):
Yeah.
(00:42:38.043):
And just to go back to something we talked about earlier and to reiterate,
(00:42:41.605):
and your tears and my tears are not the same.
(00:42:45.485):
and are not treated or seen the same.
(00:42:47.752):
So you could be crying so I might be...
(00:42:50.536):
and some of it like let's all you know mirror neurons kick in you're crying I'm
(00:42:54.819):
feeling mad like it's not to say that it's not about like saying hey white woman
(00:42:59.582):
you're not allowed to feel right it's none of that it's saying if you need to do
(00:43:03.665):
that the thing is then to say I need a moment and go deal with that on your own so
(00:43:08.769):
it doesn't become centered in the room because your tears are going to take away
(00:43:11.631):
from her tears and her tears are the tears that matter in the moment so and I threw
(00:43:15.173):
out a book called White Tears Brown Scars by Ruby Mott
(00:43:17.955):
And also your book, obviously, as well, Is That Racist?
(00:43:22.498):
Because these things are really important for us to learn.
(00:43:25.559):
And we've talked about micro and macro aggressions, you know, the macro being like a slur.
(00:43:32.463):
We super obvious and also kind of speak to this like global idea around like racism.
(00:43:38.706):
And there's like the micro, it's the little things that happen.
(00:43:43.393):
I would love if you could just share for people who are in the workspace,
(00:43:47.214):
whether they are people who have employees or just a person of one,
(00:43:50.635):
but you're showing up in networking calls as a white person.
(00:43:54.176):
You're going to client meetings.
(00:43:56.217):
You are hiring potentially, even if you don't have employees, you're hiring contractors.
(00:44:00.338):
You're on social media engaging.
(00:44:03.239):
We are always all in community.
(00:44:05.459):
So even if you are a business of one, you have
(00:44:07.980):
the opportunity all the time as a white person to cause a lot of harm and not even
(00:44:12.942):
recognize it because as you say,
(00:44:15.183):
you haven't been socialized to see that as what it is.
(00:44:18.904):
And I think very often we're actually socialized to really convince ourselves
(00:44:22.866):
things aren't racist that are.
(00:44:25.286):
So could you give some examples
(00:44:27.207):
that aren't too painful for you to share.
(00:44:28.949):
You know,
(00:44:29.289):
I don't want to like,
(00:44:29.949):
it's not,
(00:44:30.270):
I don't want this to become like a trauma thing,
(00:44:32.051):
but instead of what like microaggressions,
(00:44:34.933):
because again,
(00:44:35.414):
for people who are like,
(00:44:36.515):
oh,
(00:44:36.635):
well,
(00:44:36.855):
it's not like I used a slur.
(00:44:38.096):
Like what are the things that they may not even realize they're doing in moments
(00:44:42.019):
that are problematic that they need to be looking for some accountability,
(00:44:47.083):
like offering accountability for?
(00:44:49.245):
Yeah.
(00:44:49.925):
So I'll say a couple of things.
(00:44:51.327):
The first of which is that, you know,
(00:44:54.252):
There are lots of words to describe the experience of racism and how it shows up,
(00:44:59.139):
and those words are often imprecise for how the experience varies across people,
(00:45:06.129):
right?
(00:45:06.449):
So I do talk about microaggressions in my book.
(00:45:10.315):
and I also talk to people who are like none of the things that you are describing
(00:45:14.339):
feel like microaggression they feel very macro to me like it's very obvious right
(00:45:18.422):
so when I'm talking about microaggressions for better for worse I'm thinking I'm
(00:45:21.645):
talking about like the fleeting like I think it's like drive by racism right where
(00:45:25.768):
it's just like you're like you throw out a comment and you keep it going it's the
(00:45:29.472):
like oh you're so articulate and keep it going oh your hair is wild today which
(00:45:34.356):
somebody had recently just said not to me but to somebody else right like there are
(00:45:37.939):
these
(00:45:38.684):
These things that are very rooted in racism and when I think the disconnect between
(00:45:43.467):
the label microaggressions for people is that like I know that those are racist
(00:45:47.490):
statements and so they don't feel micro they feel very like glaring to me but
(00:45:55.135):
microaggressions for better or for worse refers to those like fleeting interactions
(00:45:59.258):
that are just like oh I think about them as like verbal paper cuts or mosquito
(00:46:04.762):
bites right they're the things that like I probably can shake them off
(00:46:09.850):
But over time,
(00:46:11.191):
if I've got a handful of paper cuts,
(00:46:12.874):
like that's going to hurt,
(00:46:13.995):
especially when I get in the shower and wash my hands with soap,
(00:46:16.899):
right?
(00:46:17.840):
So those are microaggressions.
(00:46:20.173):
you know and the experiences of them vary I wrote about this one in my newsletter
(00:46:26.877):
recently which to the conversation we were having earlier about like you know kind
(00:46:31.240):
of reflecting on those experiences it was something that happened to me in like
(00:46:34.662):
2017 but I had written it down in my journal and it was fresh when it came back to
(00:46:38.925):
write about it of a man who after I gave a presentation was like you know you're a
(00:46:46.130):
great speaker but you'd be even more effective if you were just an older white man
(00:46:49.964):
and I think that he was like trying to commiserate with me because he was also a
(00:46:52.905):
man of color being like man like these people would really listen to you more if
(00:46:56.287):
you just you know were not you um but it wasn't experienced as anything great um
(00:47:04.230):
another example is when I was getting ready to present and I was loading up my
(00:47:11.033):
presentation on my computer which was on the podium and somebody walked in they're
(00:47:14.315):
like are you the speaker I was like yes and they're like really you're the speaker
(00:47:17.056):
like you
(00:47:19.974):
you're the speaker and I was like three times like wow that's the record and so in
(00:47:25.278):
both of those cases right the the person probably was not intending they weren't
(00:47:32.843):
walking in being like I'm gonna say a racist thing or a misogynistic thing or a
(00:47:36.706):
misogynoiristic thing but they did and the experience of that for me right was like
(00:47:47.353):
Shook my confidence.
(00:47:48.874):
When I was getting ready to do the presentation,
(00:47:51.556):
I was like,
(00:47:51.997):
well,
(00:47:52.377):
now I know that there is at least one person in this room who has verbalized that
(00:47:56.280):
they can't believe that I,
(00:47:57.561):
this young Black woman who is five foot two and a half,
(00:48:00.083):
is really going to be their facilitator today.
(00:48:06.448):
Show up anyway, right?
(00:48:08.229):
And that feeling as a Black woman of knowing that I have to push down what
(00:48:12.310):
everybody else is thinking about me and show up anyway is really exhausting,
(00:48:17.052):
which goes back to why safe spaces are so important for us,
(00:48:19.492):
like knowing that I don't have to push anything down,
(00:48:21.293):
I can just be.
(00:48:23.394):
But what I also think is important and something that you brought up is like all of
(00:48:28.195):
these things,
(00:48:29.536):
calling them racist can feel very jarring to people,
(00:48:33.717):
right?
(00:48:34.017):
I don't think the person who, you know,
(00:48:36.512):
I know because when I've said about the story where the person was like really
(00:48:39.254):
you're the speaker I was like that was racist like well how do you know he didn't
(00:48:42.076):
say that he didn't think that you a black woman could be the speaker he was just
(00:48:45.338):
asking I was like yes but the questioning of my credibility suggests that somewhere
(00:48:51.402):
in his brain he couldn't wrap his mind around the fact that I was going to be the
(00:48:54.545):
person that was teaching him which suggests that he doesn't see me a black woman as
(00:48:58.287):
a person of authority which is racist
(00:49:01.916):
and that is the racist work that has been done to diminish black women and our
(00:49:07.140):
standing in society and he for better or for worse had bought into that in some way
(00:49:12.103):
shape or form by asking me this question and so what I often say to people is like
(00:49:17.267):
remember that just because you are thinking things in your brain doesn't mean that
(00:49:20.169):
they always need to come out and if you are someone that is
(00:49:25.203):
Looking at a person who is on a stage,
(00:49:28.564):
plugging in their computer and clicking through their slides,
(00:49:32.605):
assume that they are the speaker.
(00:49:35.365):
Maybe I was the IT person who was setting up the slides.
(00:49:38.946):
But in the moment,
(00:49:40.186):
if you have an opportunity to assume that the person from the underrepresented
(00:49:44.687):
group is a higher status role,
(00:49:47.308):
do it.
(00:49:48.377):
I think what so many people do is they assume that we are the lower status role and
(00:49:52.639):
I want to be very clear there is nothing wrong with being an IT person there is
(00:49:56.561):
nothing wrong with being a grocery store worker the issue is that nobody ever
(00:50:00.363):
assumes that the white person is the IT person or the grocery store worker they
(00:50:04.065):
always assume that they are the person who is the CEO or the president or the
(00:50:07.387):
patron or whatnot so assume that the person from the underrepresented group is the
(00:50:12.390):
higher status role and notice what happens to the things that come out of your
(00:50:16.812):
mouth in those moments
(00:50:18.637):
Well, I want to, if I can, I'm going to just share something vulnerable in that.
(00:50:23.583):
As you were sharing that example,
(00:50:25.846):
my mind immediately went to a place of,
(00:50:28.609):
but you look really young.
(00:50:29.810):
So it could just be that you're young, right?
(00:50:32.814):
And, but then, and then I think,
(00:50:35.859):
Yeah, yeah.
(00:50:54.925):
Come to that guy's rescue, justify, whatever.
(00:50:57.568):
And why at the expense of what you are telling me how you experienced it, right?
(00:51:02.734):
Because ultimately what matters is how you experienced it.
(00:51:05.277):
And if we are saying we want to center humans in any experience, that's the thing that matters.
(00:51:10.904):
And if you say to me,
(00:51:13.223):
It felt like there was at least some racism inside that statement.
(00:51:16.929):
Then it is important in coming on me then to say, okay, I don't have to fight you.
(00:51:22.156):
I don't have to say, oh, but it could have been whatever.
(00:51:24.400):
All that stuff I can just sit with and say, I can help.
(00:51:26.643):
Like you said, I can let those thoughts exist.
(00:51:28.105):
I'm sharing them now only in that.
(00:51:30.108):
We're having a live conversation and like that's the.
(00:51:31.911):
And I want to share it as an example of as the white person,
(00:51:34.554):
like I,
(00:51:35.035):
you know,
(00:51:35.456):
those things are going to come up for us.
(00:51:37.158):
It is again, it's that conditioning.
(00:51:39.181):
And so can we learn to do that work?
(00:51:40.864):
And I also just want to share one other thing vulnerably of an example,
(00:51:43.107):
where I caused harm in a room and what came of that.
(00:51:47.048):
So I was running a group program as a coach.
(00:51:49.448):
I had,
(00:51:49.828):
I don't know,
(00:51:50.589):
there's probably six to eight people on the call and one of the women in the room
(00:51:54.029):
was black.
(00:51:54.669):
All other women in the room were white.
(00:51:56.490):
And we were talking about,
(00:51:57.730):
she was offering up something about,
(00:51:59.090):
because we were talking about our goals and hers was around losing weight.
(00:52:02.271):
And I feel really strongly about diet culture and how harmful that is and all the
(00:52:07.472):
reasons problematic,
(00:52:08.612):
including racism being a reason is problematic.
(00:52:11.013):
Yeah.
(00:52:11.573):
Yeah, yeah.
(00:52:12.013):
Yeah.
(00:52:36.083):
And me feeling immediately like, it took a minute, it took longer than I wish it would have.
(00:52:39.565):
I wish I would have not talked before, you know, but this is the reality.
(00:52:43.167):
And I started to sense this like,
(00:52:45.428):
oh,
(00:52:46.508):
I just decided to lecture the only black woman in the room about diet culture and
(00:52:51.871):
its racist origins.
(00:52:54.625):
the only black woman in the room as a white woman so I was very quickly able to say
(00:52:59.247):
like you know in that moment not long after the rant to apologize and also ask her
(00:53:03.930):
to join me later for a conversation we did we talked it through and it ended up
(00:53:07.552):
being great in fact I think our relationship was deepened because of me being able
(00:53:11.614):
to acknowledge the harm and and move on from there but I'm not a no one's immune
(00:53:16.916):
like we're gonna cause harm and I just think that piece around that racism being
(00:53:21.359):
charged
(00:53:23.222):
Like, we have to learn how to sort of release the charge from it for ourselves as white folks.
(00:53:29.970):
And that it's not the worst thing that's going to happen to you.
(00:53:33.854):
If you can get to the place of understanding,
(00:53:35.036):
the worst thing in that moment would have been to...
(00:53:39.324):
yeah apologize to leave that person harmed and me running which would have been my
(00:53:44.449):
reaction 10-15 years ago probably I would have run from it because it was too
(00:53:48.213):
uncomfortable and just I think about that like this what's the worst thing for me
(00:53:53.138):
to have to sit with maybe I caused some harm and I was and there was some racism
(00:53:56.641):
that came out not because I am racist but because I exist inside of racism and it's
(00:54:01.346):
in me or I
(00:54:02.787):
Her having to sit with that and forever having a different feeling about you.
(00:54:06.729):
Forever.
(00:54:08.490):
What your thoughts are under that and I know we need to wrap up.
(00:54:11.331):
What I love actually is how you noticed this, right?
(00:54:17.114):
That was not always me.
(00:54:19.175):
All of us have these moments where we'll get on our soapbox and we're like da-da-da-da-da.
(00:54:23.196):
But you said something very
(00:54:25.462):
I'm
(00:54:54.518):
and so in all while this is happening the baby is like and so what I have said to
(00:55:00.643):
my my older toddler is like stop what do you notice about what your sister is doing
(00:55:06.828):
is she smiling no she's crying right is she is she moving your hands away right so
(00:55:13.754):
all of these things are teaching her to pay attention to the subtle signals
(00:55:18.158):
that in this case they're not subtle because the baby is literally screaming right
(00:55:21.440):
but like the subtle signals that you were getting that might not be verbal but that
(00:55:25.062):
very much are clues that you need to stop and because of lots of reasons I am not
(00:55:34.767):
going to probably say to you or maybe that you know black woman in that case wasn't
(00:55:38.129):
gonna say to you like hey Becky like this like anti-diet culture diatribe you're
(00:55:41.511):
going on like that's racist but
(00:55:44.112):
you can see it in her body and if you pay attention there's actually research that
(00:55:47.533):
looks at how one of the reasons that racism persists is the de and infra
(00:55:52.675):
humanization of people from underrepresented backgrounds what that literally means
(00:55:56.277):
is like I don't see you as as much of a person I don't think that you have the same
(00:56:03.399):
emotions and emotional responses that I do if you are from a marginalized group
(00:56:08.821):
right and so what that means is that it makes it easier for me to dismiss the
(00:56:11.882):
things that you are doing feeling saying
(00:56:14.855):
And if you reject that,
(00:56:16.576):
then you start to notice like,
(00:56:17.776):
oh,
(00:56:17.916):
I saw the flash of pain that went across your eyes,
(00:56:19.937):
even if it was just for a moment.
(00:56:21.698):
And what I always recommend to people is to respond more to those cues than to
(00:56:29.901):
anything else that's coming out of a person's mouth.
(00:56:32.922):
Right.
(00:56:33.242):
And even if they keep going,
(00:56:37.224):
there is so much power in you being like,
(00:56:38.985):
hey,
(00:56:40.545):
I noticed that like you had a reaction when I said this thing.
(00:56:44.952):
I want to back up because I think I need to try again.
(00:56:49.034):
I'm really sorry.
(00:56:50.876):
And what I had found,
(00:56:52.156):
and it sounds like in this moment you did too,
(00:56:54.138):
is that people are so amazed that you even noticed those reactions.
(00:57:00.061):
I say, yeah, I did.
(00:57:01.122):
And it opens up a conversation.
(00:57:03.003):
It opens up trust.
(00:57:04.003):
It opens up an opportunity for the relationship to deepen because you've shown I am
(00:57:08.846):
really paying attention to you.
(00:57:10.787):
I am locked in.
(00:57:12.351):
And you can trust that I care about those fleeting moments that are going across your eyes.
(00:57:18.557):
And that even if you don't verbalize it,
(00:57:20.439):
I am going to pay attention to you so much that I'm going to notice and I am going
(00:57:23.883):
to take accountability and action for whatever happens next.
(00:57:26.986):
And that's really, really powerful.
(00:57:28.447):
So I appreciate you sharing both of those anecdotes.
(00:57:32.491):
Thank you.
(00:57:32.872):
And most... Just...
(00:57:34.523):
I just think it's really important for white folks to also acknowledge like when
(00:57:39.948):
these things get because it seems for me to be like oh well I've learned it all
(00:57:43.832):
right again the whole goals are thing and I know there are there's a good chance
(00:57:48.436):
I've caused harm in this conversation right like that reality of these things and
(00:57:52.960):
so I think it's important to to watch that into model that it's okay like it's okay
(00:57:58.305):
to say
(00:57:59.606):
Yeah, I screwed up, right?
(00:58:02.088):
Can I share with you my own thing that's, like, haunting me?
(00:58:05.792):
And I, like, didn't do anything about it in the moment, but it did inform my behavior later.
(00:58:10.376):
So I just came off of a week of events in eastern Iowa.
(00:58:14.580):
My mom is from Cedar Rapids, and so she organized this, like, amazing book tour for me.
(00:58:19.724):
I had events in Iowa City and Cedar Rapids all over, and they were great.
(00:58:24.767):
On Tuesday,
(00:58:26.110):
I had an event in Iowa City,
(00:58:28.214):
and it was mostly white people in the room,
(00:58:30.478):
but there were people from a variety of races.
(00:58:33.264):
I was like, okay, Iowa City, we're coming down here.
(00:58:37.052):
and I was talking with my conversation partner for that event about identity and
(00:58:41.516):
about how white is a racial identity and there was and you know I said I was like
(00:58:46.260):
spoiler alert like white people like you are white you can say that and so I said
(00:58:50.523):
to the room I was like are you white and most people said yes and then there are
(00:58:56.048):
people like no and I was like right because not everybody in here is white and in
(00:59:01.352):
my head I was like Evelyn you a black woman
(00:59:05.208):
just centered all of the white people and like did not create space for the like
(00:59:11.633):
non-white people who were here and like my book is for everybody and I just it made
(00:59:15.696):
me feel so like disappointed in myself and then like at the end of my talk but
(00:59:19.580):
before the signing two of the black people who were there like got up and left
(00:59:22.882):
probably because the formal event was over and like they had something right so
(00:59:25.324):
like I would but I was reading it all these things I was like oh my god like really
(00:59:28.527):
whiffed it um
(00:59:30.410):
and that haunted me so much so that when I had an event a couple of days later with
(00:59:34.373):
also a mostly white audience,
(00:59:35.514):
but not an entirely white audience,
(00:59:38.496):
I did something similar,
(00:59:39.737):
but I was like,
(00:59:40.577):
if you are white,
(00:59:41.758):
are you white?
(00:59:43.339):
And I was like, and shout out to the not white people in here because love you, right?
(00:59:47.462):
And so I am never going to know
(00:59:52.627):
how the people at the event in Iowa City on that Tuesday felt like maybe it didn't
(00:59:58.010):
even register with them that that was how it felt.
(01:00:00.531):
But like it felt so bad to me to realize.
(01:00:04.454):
And I didn't say anything about it in the moment because I was like,
(01:00:06.495):
well,
(01:00:06.635):
this is complicated and who has time to verbalize all of it,
(01:00:08.756):
right?
(01:00:10.257):
But it did change my behavior and what I said a couple of days later.
(01:00:14.079):
And I think that there's this other piece of like sometimes we do harm and
(01:00:20.524):
Becky Mollenkamp
(01:00:31.895):
They would like that's their reality and that was what I showed in that moment and
(01:00:36.859):
all I can ever do is try to do better and to use that feeling of oh we didn't like
(01:00:42.685):
that to inform how I behave differently for the future so that's what I hope for
(01:00:47.489):
everybody who is working on their racism but like we just gotta try to do better
(01:00:51.953):
the next time always
(01:00:53.593):
So thank you because it's just so important for people to hear anything right
(01:00:57.518):
because I can feel as you're talking I'm thinking of like oh I know I caused harm
(01:01:01.082):
to that person once and like and then just you start thinking about all the
(01:01:04.366):
countless people I don't even know that I've caused harm to.
(01:01:06.929):
I know.
(01:01:08.263):
And we have to learn to be able to,
(01:01:10.104):
like you said,
(01:01:10.585):
you have to be able to release that and all you can do is just try to keep getting
(01:01:14.467):
better and learn from it.
(01:01:15.268):
So thank you.
(01:01:15.828):
And if you want to learn,
(01:01:17.149):
make sure that you get your book,
(01:01:18.891):
Dr.
(01:01:19.211):
Evelyn Carter's book,
(01:01:20.332):
Was That Racist?
(01:01:21.132):
There's a link there and if you're here live,
(01:01:23.474):
I'll put it in the show notes if you're watching elsewhere.
(01:01:25.515):
Make sure you grab the book because there's just,
(01:01:27.437):
especially I think if you're white,
(01:01:28.557):
but as you said,
(01:01:29.098):
it's written for everyone.
(01:01:30.279):
But I think
(01:01:31.520):
especially if you're not black you know I think because even if you do hold a
(01:01:35.763):
marginalized identity I think just it's important to acknowledge as well that that
(01:01:39.566):
doesn't mean that you're not immune from also causing harm and frankly even if you
(01:01:42.909):
are black because you as you mentioned that older black man who said something that
(01:01:45.651):
left you with that sort of feeling so again I think it's important for all of us to
(01:01:49.074):
learn how to
(01:01:51.669):
Sort of change our programming around, first of all, just understanding if something's racist.
(01:01:56.033):
But then I think the most important part is that,
(01:01:57.574):
like,
(01:01:58.154):
then how do we do the internal work to be able to get to that place where we can be
(01:02:01.717):
with that discomfort and have those discussions in the moment and do the harm
(01:02:05.720):
repair?
(01:02:06.481):
Because going back to that story you shared at the very beginning about being in
(01:02:09.584):
that writer's group,
(01:02:10.604):
your experience,
(01:02:11.185):
you'd probably still be in that group had harm repair happened.
(01:02:13.787):
Yes, I would.
(01:02:14.768):
Yes, I would.
(01:02:15.688):
And I also will note that,
(01:02:17.070):
like,
(01:02:17.690):
to the point about experiencing racism being worse than being called racist,
(01:02:22.008):
I,
(01:02:22.388):
as a debut author,
(01:02:24.029):
am missing out on important information sharing and resources that is happening in
(01:02:29.771):
that group because of their decision to prioritize somebody else's comfort over
(01:02:34.793):
harm repair.
(01:02:36.014):
And I made the decision that my feelings of safety were more important than that,
(01:02:41.356):
but it also means I am missing out.
(01:02:42.916):
So yeah, harm repair would have gone a long way.
(01:02:48.059):
it goes so far and I think we so often think again because we're prioritizing our
(01:02:51.861):
own discomfort in the moment and we just sort of think well I've screwed it up now
(01:02:54.823):
so it's all over and it's like it doesn't have to be and once you have to be all
(01:02:58.345):
over yeah once you go through the harm repair process and you survive it you
(01:03:02.147):
realize like oh yeah that wasn't so bad after all that's like yes harm repair it
(01:03:08.330):
wasn't so bad after all like I can do I can do this again there's a sequel to your
(01:03:12.132):
book harm repair it wasn't so bad after
(01:03:14.754):
thank you so much Dr.
(01:03:15.977):
Carter I really appreciate your time again get everyone get the book Was That
(01:03:19.303):
Racist by Dr.
(01:03:20.205):
Evelyn Carter and thank you for your time thank you for having me yeah