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We created Juicy Bits because we wanted to continue the conversations that we start out on the trail and on the chair lift. Hosted by our CEO Jen Gurecki and Ambassador Jillian Raymond, they talk candidly about everything from dude soup, to sex, to politics, to equity in the outdoors. We occasionally (read: frequently) drop F-bombs, interview some of the most interesting people in the outdoors and beyond, and say things that many of us think but don’t feel comfortable saying out loud. If you are easily offended or looking for something that is G Rated, this is not the podcast for you. But if you love truth-telling and irreverence, get ready to laugh, cry, and maybe pee your pants a little bit.
Speaker 1 00:00:34 Hello and welcome. I'm Jillian Raymond, the co-creator of Juicy Bits and a Coalition Snow Ambassador.
Speaker 2 00:00:39 And I'm Jen Gurecki, your co-host and the CEO of Coalition Snow.
Speaker 1 00:00:44 For those of you who are new, get ready to laugh, cry and maybe pee your pants a little.
Speaker 2 00:00:49 Juicy Bits is about taking the conversations that we start on the chairlift and at the trailhead and bringing them to you to explore alternative narratives that challenge the status quo about what it means to be a modern woman in the outdoors.
Speaker 1 00:01:03 Grab your helmet because sometimes it's a bumpy ride. Fyi. Friends, this podcast is for mature audiences, so you've been warned. Let's get to work and juice the patriarchy.
Speaker 2 00:01:15 Hey everyone, Jen co-host of Juicy Bits here with four very special guests today who are all recipients of the Indigenous Backcountry Scholarship. Now, if you are not familiar with the Indigenous Backcountry Scholarship, the link will be in the show notes and you can head on over to the Coalition Snow website and check it out. But basically this is something that we've done for two years in partnership with Denali and on the land media to select five exceptional human beings to receive a thousand dollars to further their access and education in snow sports and in the back country. And then a bunch of gear to make that happen, like Coalition Snow skis and a kit from TREW Gear and Avalanche Safety gear, like a beacon from Ortivox. So this is the second year that we've facilitated the scholarship. It's one of the things that I most look forward to every year.
Always incredible human beings. And today is a chance for you to get to meet all of them. On today's episode we're gonna talk about things like access to snow sports and access to the ski community and then also how everybody got involved in snow sports. And then also who knows where the conversation will take us because maybe this is the third time we've recorded the introduction because technology and my inability to record an intro so no one knows what's gonna happen. It's gonna be good though. So before we get into it though, each person who's here this today is going to introduce themselves. So I'm gonna kick it off and ask Joelle to start us off and then everybody can kind of flow in after her.
Speaker 3 00:02:51 Sounds good. Hi everybody. My name is Joelle Johnston. I come from the Squamish Nation here in North Vancouver and I'm very excited to
Speaker 4 00:02:58 Speak with you all tonight.
Speaker 5 00:03:00 Yeah, I'll go next. Hello, my name's Taylor Bega and to acknowledge my relatives here joining in, again, my name's Taylor Bek. I am originally from the Navajo Nation on the New Mexico side. I'm currently based in Denver, Colorado. Yeah,
Speaker 6 00:03:23 I can go. My name's Saskia Livingstone and I'm a member of the Metis Nation of Alberta Region three. Um, I was originally born in England, lived in Japan for a bit as a kid, but now I'm based in Calgary, Alberta, in Canada. I'm also really excited to be here today.
Speaker 2 00:03:40 Thanks. And Stephanie?
Speaker 4 00:03:43 Yeah, um, I'm Stephanie and I am from the clown nation in Vancouver, uh, island and the Washington State. And uh, my name is Sunki and I'm now living ancient country up in Alaska and I just got my coalition snow skis and Oh, so stoked , so I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 2 00:04:08 Yay. I love hearing that. Okay, so I think that like a really great place to start this conversation is how did all of you get involved in snow sports? A lot of people talk about being, you know, raised at a very young age, getting out into the mountains. I'm somebody who kind of did it on my own and decided I wanted to do it when I was like 16. We all have these different stories but they certainly shape who we are as adults. So how did you all get involved in snow sports?
Speaker 4 00:04:40 Yeah, I actually didn't grow up with access to snow sports. I grew up on an Olympic peninsula and so in Washington state. And so we do have a really awesome national park that does have a little ski area of a rope to and I didn't know anyone ever who skied, I didn't know anyone who snowboarded. I was like, I've snowshoe before when it was required in class, uh, and, but I grew up like on the water in a commercial fishing family. And so everything was water oriented and I was always looking at the mountains from the boat going, that looks so much fun and I see these cool videos and ads and well I don't know anyone who does this, I can't do it. And I finally got a chance to go up to Hurricane Ridge and when I was in high school with the, with the school on a weekend and I was like, whoa, this is really cool.
Speaker 4 00:05:37 They provided skis for us and we got to try and most of the time all of us just fell over and it was a hot mess but it was like, whoa, maybe I can ski. And so from there I actually just had to do it on my own and pretty much everyone I told like, I'm gonna go skiing. They're like, you're just gonna fall. Like this is a crazy idea. Why would you even do that? Like you've gotta go all the way, you know, four or five hours away to do real skiing, like this is not a good area. And I was like, no, I'm gonna do it anyway, . So that's how I got, that's how I got into skiing and I was very terrible for a very long time, um, , but because I was like didn't get to have lessons or, or anything like that and so it was kind of like learn on your own and see how it goes. It was a little bit of a crazy adventure, but
Speaker 3 00:06:29 I am started snowboarding when I was probably about eight or nine with the first nation snowboard team and I'm very grateful for them for the opportunity to kind of learn and I'm so grateful they kind of pushed us through different levels of snowboarding. Like um, I was put on a high performance team, we started doing some traveling with like coaches and we'd, I would do the snowboard cross races, my brother would do slope slopestyle and it really created this like community along kind of Squamish and like see the sky area. And then I got involved with the indigenous women outdoors who is very committed to getting women and women identifying folks into the back country. So I started doing that a couple years ago and very grateful for both the programs and what they've gifted me with the ability to get out there and shred. So I'm happy for that.
Speaker 2 00:07:30 Joel, for people who are not familiar with the First Nations team, can you talk about that a little bit more?
Speaker 3 00:07:37 Yeah, for sure. So Erin Marchant started the first nation snowboard team 20 years ago here in Vancouver. And then slowly started expanding it into kind of like the Cooney region and out onto the island and up in Whistler. And kind of recently we had a restructure and so we've called it the Indigenous Life Sport Academy and it's kind of like unstructured play. So we're teaching kids the tools and ability to kind of go out there whenever they feel like it and have that ability to snowboard or climb, you know, it's a, it's really great program and I'm very grateful for it, like I said.
Speaker 2 00:08:18 Taylor, what, what about you? How did you get started in snow sports?
Speaker 5 00:08:23 Um, I feel like growing up I always knew I wanted to be in snow sports, snowboarding specifically. However, I had another dream of playing collegiate sports. Both my sister and I, my sister had the opportunity too and so I was like, oh, I wanna do it as well. So our parents enrolled us pretty much in like club sports and everything at that time. And my dad, he had tore his ACL very early on in high school and everything so, and I went really like, I think it was from football is what he was doing. So just from there he was like, oh, I know how dangerous like snow sports can be and everything and you guys have this dream of playing collegiate sports myself, it was for soccer. My sister was volleyball and she's three years older than me and seeing like her, so he like restricted us to those like not doing snow sports at all growing up.
Speaker 5 00:09:05 And I was always so devastated because I l grew up in the four corners area of New Mexico. Yeah. At the desert. But I can look out and see mountains but I was always so jealous like coming back from school from the weekends and some of my friends had like their snowboarding passes on their jackets still and everything and I was like, man, when I get the chance I'm gonna go. But still like played college soccer down in Phoenix went the opposite way of the mountains . But when I was down in Phoenix I knew I was kind of on the track of giving up sports, at least playing for college and everything. I started buying snowboarding gear cuz like they sell it down in Phoenix but it goes on sale very early on like in December. And I remember getting like pants and jackets and everything and ended up, yeah, a few years later, my mid twenties like a friend was uh, asked if I wanted to go snowboarding.
Speaker 5 00:09:54 I was like, yes, I'll go . And they were very surprised when I, like, they let me borrow one of their boards and everything and they're like, you have the whole, like you have everything but the board and boots and they're like, how, how is that possible? And I'm like, I've been dying to do this . And I was 25 at the time and then pretty much just fell in love with it since still trying to create a community here in Denver and everything. But the resort life here in the area is totally different from my little mountain town back in Durango, Colorado. But yeah, it's been introduced me to a great community so far and yeah, I'm thankful for it. Saskia, what, what about you?
Speaker 6 00:10:29 Yeah, I uh, didn't really get to do snow sports growing up. I was raised by like a single mother and I have two younger sisters so financially it just wasn't in the cards for me. But I did get to do ski lessons when I was like probably 16 cuz I was in an indigenous youth program through, it was like an afterschool program which was really cool. So they taught us to ski in that. And then I remember high school, in my gym class we went on like a ski weekend and that was like the coolest thing ever. And then after high school I didn't really do winter stuff, which is crazy cuz Calgary is such a winter intensive city. It's so cold here and I feel like winter is our longest season. So I honestly really, really hated living here for a while. And then, yeah, I decided I wanted to get more into mountain things because I live so close to the Rocky Mountains and I'm super lucky.
Speaker 6 00:11:14 So I got into climbing and that sort of spurred like my mountain sport passion and it was actually my ex-partner who taught me to ski and I'm really grateful for them for taking me out and being willing to show me the ropes cuz it's, it's really hard to learn to ski as an adult. You don't wanna break anything. You're way less bendy than when you're a kid. And yeah, I haven't really like done any resort stuff. I, I got straight into a backcountry skiing and touring. It's really popular out here. And also resorts are just like really, really pricey and I, I I just couldn't afford to get resort lift tickets. I remember my first season out I literally bought kids skis cuz I'm only, uh, like, I'm five foot three so I'm on the shorter side and the boys K2 boy skis were on sale at four check for like a hundred bucks.
Speaker 6 00:11:57 I was like, yeah, okay, I can learn to ski if I can get these hundred dollar skis. So yeah, it's been a, it's been a good journey. My sister, my younger sister who's 22, so she's a couple years younger than me, she just, uh, got into touring this year and she took her asst one last weekend. So I'm super excited to show her the ropes this season. And I have another younger sister who's 13 and she's picking up snowboarding, so I was like, good luck kid. Can't help you there, but you'll have fun . And it's uh, it's good. I'm, I'm glad they're getting into it as well.
Speaker 2 00:12:27 That's awesome. Yeah, tell tell your little sister that skis are better tools as an adult who's snowboards who will not learn to ski better. Like I'm really good on like a blue groomer. I will crush a blue groomer on skis. Anything besides that, forget about it. And I'm just like, wow, skis are just better tools than snowboard. I mean, snowboards are fun, certainly like when I started 25 years ago, 30 years ago, like they were way better than skis, but not anymore. I don't think skis was for, for touring, but yeah,
Speaker 6 00:12:58 Yeah, you cannot pay me to splitboard. But good luck convincing her to think it's cool. She, she's like, you do it so it's not as cool. I'm in a snowboard .
Speaker 2 00:13:07 Yeah, I mean it is cool but I don't know, I feel like anytime you wanna go downhill on a splitboard when you're in like ski mode is the scariest thing in the whole world. joelle's nodding
Speaker 6 00:13:19 Her head. Yeah. That's terrifying.
Speaker 2 00:13:20 . It's terrifying. It's terrifying. All of you sort of got started in skiing in snowboarding later in, in life. What does it do for you now? Like why are you, like obviously you're very committed to snow sports because you applied for this scholarship and there were obviously things that you said in your application that led the committee to, to select you. So where are you at currently with your journey in snow sports or like what are you trying to accomplish with your participation now?
Speaker 4 00:13:50 I'll jump in man. I actually moved to Alaska for the winter. Everyone's like, why did you move to Alaska? You know, it's because you fished growing up. I was like, well yeah, so I could make money but uh, but I now I'm like, I want my sites. When I started to learn to ski my sites were like, I need to get to Alaska because they have mountains, they have winter, they have the ocean, they have it all. I'm going. And so, and so I actually set out just to live in a place that had more winter so I could just go out and specifically someplace that had less resorts because like some other people mentioned, you know, resorts are more expensive, the gear is more expensive and whatever. But also I got into uh, mountain mountain sports and search and rescue. And so now for me skiing, not only does it fill this like self happiness thing like well I feel so free when I'm doing this, but it also skiing here in, in these remote beautiful wildernesses is an access point.
Speaker 4 00:15:00 So it's not just you just go ski because you wanna ski but you also want you go ski because you want to get to these amazing places and the only way you're gonna do that is backcountry skiing is going up the mountain in order to get back down it um, you know, you don't have a a chair lift, you don't have roads. So for me it was also a, I love nature and this is one of the most amazing seasons to experience it in and see, see the wilderness and actually just be able to be in it. So for me I was like, yeah, I, I gotta go, I gotta go where the mountains are.
Speaker 5 00:15:39 Yeah. Um, I'll go next for myself. Um, my parents raised my sister and I in community a lot. But the thing is when I was a kid I denied that community just being native and everything. Cause I grew up in that heavily l d s town and so I was always the one kid, my family and I are not LDS but I was always the one going uh, with my LDS friends to church on Sundays young womens on uh, Wednesdays and everything. And I denied like my native heritage for a little bit like change after ceremony and everything, changing my clothes, my backpack, everything. So my classmates wouldn't smell it so I wouldn't be picked out as a kid. You know, elementary kids are are terrible on picking on each other. And so yeah. But growing up it wasn't until I moved away for college where I like really embraced that and my older sister, I think her for like guiding me in the right direction and everything cuz she kept asking me like, okay, well what about the native community?
Speaker 5 00:16:32 Are you gonna apply to these schools that have a native community? Everything? And I was like, why I don't like I don't identify with it. And she's like, I know but that's you. And then wasn't until I moved away in college and I'm like, oh why I do really need this community to support me in everything . And so found that community when I moved away for college and everything and then or transferred to different colleges at different times and everything . But I always try to create, create a native community there and just different communities and like what I was doing at the time and everything. So specifically for like snowboarding now trying to create and foster a community that were clearly or underrepresented in these like, I dunno for myself, like resorts and everything. I look around it's majority white, cis male, cis women and everything. And it's a little intimidating for myself because I know I'm a good like snowboarder but when I see them like my head space goes the opposite direction. I'm like doubting myself and everything. And so showing kids that they native kids specifically that this space is as equally theirs as it is everybody else's,
Speaker 2 00:17:32 That's so important, right? Like you can't be what you can't see.
Speaker 5 00:17:36 Mm-hmm . Yeah, exactly. Mm-hmm .
Speaker 4 00:17:38 Yeah. Yeah Ta Taylor. And to add to that because that was, it's, yeah when you go to these resort places, it feels sometimes very ex exclusatory like you, it doesn't explicitly say hey, other people aren't allowed, but it makes this feeling of that. And so in some ways that's actually why I went towards backcountry more and I was more driven towards backcountry because I was like, well this is the option that I'm allowed. Not that everyone ever ever explicitly told me, Hey you can't go to a resort. But if I couldn't afford it and I had to drive really far and I didn't have a car, well then, and no one one in my community could ever take me there or afford to take me there, then what else is left ? You know? So it was, it was like the opposite for me. It was like, oh I'm gonna go to the wilderness because there isn't anything in the resort for me. So it's interesting to hear like breaking through the resort barriers is really a really amazing, neat thing to do.
Speaker 6 00:18:37 I would add to that cuz I do primarily back country ski. I like, I think in Calgary at least sort of the community we have here is still very, especially like white male dominated space is not very inclusive. Oh my goodness. Stay away from the Facebook groups , they're so toxic. So yeah, I think for me like getting into it, at first it was just something fun to do on the weekends, especially in a city where we have so much winter and it's really cold and brutal and it's honestly pretty, uh, sad to live here in the winter. I think if you don't like go outside and make sure you have fun activities to do. So for me that's how it began and I think I was stuck with it just because I have built a little bit of a community, especially with other women where it's like, no, like we, we deserve to be here.
Speaker 6 00:19:21 We get to take up space, especially in backcountry skiing where like decision making and conversations is such a big element of it. I know like when I ski with men I find like myself feeling smaller and diminished. Whereas when I ski with my female friends, we've made a huge point of like everyone's voice gets heard and everyone gets to say something. Even if it's wrong, that's okay, we're gonna hear it and we can like make those decisions together. And I think that's honestly just kept me coming back again and again and again because it feels like a space where like we get to work towards empowering ourselves and also hopefully empowering other women that we bring into our circle as well. Yeah. And I want like my younger sisters to experience that as well. So I'm hoping like with things like this that the culture is shifting a bit, but I think for me right now it just kind of feels like I need to keep taking up space here and it still does bring me a lot of joy and happiness, but I'm like, I can't quit now. Like just keep showing up, keep taking up that space because like we deserve it and we, we are allowed to be here.
Speaker 2 00:20:17 There's a lot of nodding happening right now. Like everyone's nodding. Nodding.
Speaker 5 00:20:22 Yeah, no I agree with that because I actually went snowboarding. Um, I rang in this season going with my other native female friend and it felt so good and just, I mean we were doing resort stuff where we were like just talking and chatting and everything and we went to high school together. Both of us learned to snowboard in our mid twenties and everything but the end of the day we're like, that was probably one of my like top three snowboarding days, . It was so empowering to go with another native woman and we're like, yeah, we need to do this more often. So it is very empowering to go with another person that identifies as similar to you.
Speaker 3 00:20:55 Yeah, I am uh, very grateful for the opportunity that I had to get out in the back country with the group of iws, the indigenous women outdoors. I didn't really feel like I was able to take up kind of space in that, that field of snowboarding. I remember when I was younger, I was at my coach, I was like, oh that's so sick. Like that's a slip board, I really want one. He was like, why do you want that? You're never gonna use that. And I was like, oh well you know, now I really wanna use it like and just to have like that group of women who support you and they're like, yeah, you can do it or like, you don't feel comfortable, we don't have to do it. And just making that safe space for everybody is really important. And you guys talking about community, I'm like yeah, it's totally all about community and finding the right one.
Speaker 6 00:21:42 Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:21:44 Not certainly a different vibe to go out with all women than it is in a space where there's cis men.
Speaker 6 00:21:50 I think it's a better vibe for me personally. , I enjoy it a lot more. I think it's nice when like you can make jokes about stuff or you know, make light of things that you go through as women and they just like get it and they know and you don't have to sit there and explain, I would definitely like to eat with more indigenous women. That is one like piece I'm missing is it is still like mostly white women. Yeah. So we're definitely not seeing, at least out here, the diversity and the access issues are still definitely there.
Speaker 2 00:22:17 How, what, what do you think would have to change siski for that to happen? Like, you know, there's, there's only so much you as an individual can do in terms of like finding people in your community, right? So sort of like at this, this bigger level, like what do you think needs to happen so that you're someone who, you know when you go to the resort, you go to back country, you're seeing people who you identify with.
Speaker 6 00:22:38 I think like starting like targeting younger kids, like kind of like Joel you were saying you got started as a youth and you got to like have that experience growing up. I think a lot of indigenous youth in Calgary would really benefit from that, like having an outlet. I think the issue is like being in a city, we are kind of far from the mountains, so even just like parents having time to drive their kids out is a huge thing. So I'd like to see more organizations pop up that focus on getting indigenous youth and into the outdoors. I still think cost is like a huge barrier. Like parents just can't afford, or even like adults these days can't afford to get into it. Especially touring man. The beacon alone is, is a lot of money to be spending. And I think another component is the education.
Speaker 6 00:23:19 I know with the climbing community when I first got into it, I didn't feel like I was gonna be judged harshly for not knowing the answer. I think with the climbing world, at least in my experience, there's been a lot more focus on mentorship and like the expectation that you come in not knowing and people around you will build you up and teach you. I have not had that experience at all with skiing. It's been very like, oh you don't know, so I guess you're just dumb. Or like, like why don't you know that already? You should know that. It's like, well I, I don't and that's why I'm trying, trying to ask these questions. So I would like to see like a, a shift in people's attitudes towards mentoring people because especially with touring, if it becomes a safety issue, it's like if people don't know how to do it safely and they don't understand, then yeah that is really dangerous. See, I'd be curious to see if there was like guiding companies in our area or just older people that know what they're doing, who would be more willing to mentor young people who have no clue what they're doing.
Speaker 4 00:24:10 I think to an, to add to that, like this scholarship's the first time I've ever had new gear, I have never once had new gear. Um, and it was like whoa, it's actually a really amazing feeling to think whoa, those are our skis for me. They're not someone that's done with them so I guess I'll use them, which is still great and I'm not hating on that. Like use gear upcycle wonderful, but to actually have gear that you can feel like whoa, this is my own is such an empowering feeling and espe and I think that I was looking at true gear who was gave us um, uh, gift cards and they had, I didn't know until the woman actually messaged me. She said, Hey also we have this used uh, or returned gear site that's part of our gear. And I was like whoa.
Speaker 4 00:25:05 Even some of that gear is actually news. It was just returned. And so I think it'd be really neat mm-hmm to see more companies get into this having new like return gear that's not necessarily used. So you don't necessarily feel like, oh I'm just buying used gear at a secondhand store, but actually on their website having return gear or last year's stuff for a reasonable like significantly less and just for an access reasoning. And I've seen it start to pop up in certain outdoor companies and I think it would be really nice to see more companies do that because they get returns, they have issues with their gear. And so knowing what it feels like to get gear that's not just I walked into a secondhand store , but actually like specialty would be really nice to see.
Speaker 2 00:25:57 Yeah, it's interesting like so at coalition we just launched our second tracks program this year, which is a ski and snowboard buyback program. So we buy back use skis and snowboards and then we sell those on the website. And I think we're the first skiing snowboard company to do that for hard goods. And it's kind of because the industry, the industry exists on people wanting to buy new things every single year. Right. And there's definitely this, like this whole vibe in the industry around like the exclusivity is part of what grew snow sports. Like it is all about having the new gear being cool fitting in. Like that's, that's kind of what the industry was built on. And so you would would never, um, you know, there's always ski swaps and things like that but like brands wouldn't necessarily do that or even retailers wouldn't off offer it up because they would perceive it as devaluing their brand.
Speaker 2 00:26:56 And for us, we will, we're gonna sell other people's skis and boards and for us we're like, we don't give a fuck. Like let's get more people sliding on snow. Sliding on snow is fun. Let's get as many people as possible out there. I don't have to have, I mean do I want everyone on coalition? Absolutely. Certainly I do. Would I just be happy if more people got out? Yes. But there is sort of this like culture in snow sports that you have to chip away at to get these companies to think that it's valuable. And really what's pushing it is people like you and you know, people who ski and snowboard who are staying like we want, we want to be able to participate in an upcycled pro program. We want to support less consumption and moving toward less waste. And so the consumer is definitely pushing that a lot and I think you'll see a lot more snow sports brands starting to get into it, which I think is just, just gets more people out, which is good.
Speaker 4 00:27:54 And maybe, maybe that if more people have access to the actual equipment, like Taylor was saying, she got all the gear but not the actual snowboard, which makes it hard to snowboard, uh, without that part . Um, but you know, maybe once, once the actual boards and the skis and those kinds of things become more accessible and more popular in a not brand new fashion, um, you get more of the different communities participating, not just upper middle classes, white , you know, insert stereo skiing, scare stereotype there. Um, and then hopefully that means like, oh wow, I see more, you know, indigenous ladies in the backcountry class or you know, whatever.
Speaker 3 00:28:43 Yeah. We've got, um, with our indigenous life sport academy crew, we've got a bunch of kids who need gear and I've kind of just been pulling stuff from my old sets of like boots or helmets or whatever and trying to find boards that's like kind of affordable for beginners and kids who are gonna grow out of it really quickly is like really difficult for us at least to find and source like gear for them. And cuz it is expensive and we wanna get them up there. So we've been trying to find that stuff, but we've ended up kind of looking in some thrift stores for boards and the kids don't care, which I'm, you know, super stoked about that. They just wanna get up there and learn. Yeah. So I think kind of like upcycling is definitely a huge important thing that, uh, needs to happen and I'm stoked that coalition's doing it with the hard goods. It's awesome.
Speaker 2 00:29:38 Thanks. Yeah. And just even like, you know, know, like not only just making it available but also destigmatizing having used gear, right? Like there's such, that's such a thing of, again, like in the industry, like having the latest and and the greatest and, and in terms of feeling like you fit into ski culture, you know, I would, I mean I, I remember when I first started I learned on a friend's like 1 62 sims snowboard, 1 62. That was the dumbest thing of it. But that's what was available to me. Right. And that was, that was one thing that we wanted to talk about today was like not only some of these access issues, you know, which is like specifically we can talk about the high price of gear, the high price of lift tickets needing to have transportation, but there's also sort of the cultural side of it, right? Like the access to the ski community. And I'm wondering if you'd all like to kind of speak, you already have sort of spoken to it, but speak to it a little bit more around the culture of SnowSports, the culture of the, the community and how that either includes or excludes you.
Speaker 4 00:30:40 I think it actually wasn't until I moved to Alaska that I actually ever felt included in snow sports. I had tried a lot in Washington to kind of find friends that were even interested in that or who knew how or make friends on the mountain and their lifestyles were just so different or their backgrounds were just so different. It was like conversations just didn't flow like they do , you know, or like they can. And so it just melt meant it really stilted and I just never felt like I got to really belong. And so it was really amazing when the first time I went up to Alaska, because there is a large indigenous community here and there is a lot of snow access here just in the back country. Like you ski from your house that I suddenly go, oh wow, you know, the a and b, you know, Alaska native Brotherhoodhood.
Speaker 4 00:31:36 They're like, oh we're having skiing this weekend, anyone is welcome to join. And it's like, oh, it's just in your community. I'm like, well this should be everywhere where you suddenly feel uh, you know, accepted. Because people I think go, oh, well if you just get here you'll be accepted. And no, there is a like a, you have to get along with people and you have, there's like common ground that needs to be had. There's feeling like ev well everyone has had this experience. Everyone's known how to ski all their parents drive them and they all have this nice gear and there's like this self-consciousness that really holds, holds you back until you find a community, even if you do manage to get to this, to the slopes. And I think I really realized that once I came up to Alaska and they were things here that were just like, oh anyone can join us and this is an indigenous group. And I was like, whoa, that exists Stephen. Why can't everybody have that? You know?
Speaker 5 00:32:34 Well, sounds like I need to head up to Alaska
Speaker 4 00:32:36 . Yeah, anytime .
Speaker 5 00:32:38 Yeah, no, I'm definitely having a hard time here in Denver. I would say creating that community, it's so hard. I mean I 70 traffic don't even get me started on that. That's a whole nother issue. But I think there's so many groups and again it goes back to like the mentoring and like that welcoming space to learn and to make mistakes. I mean I feel like people these days forget that we are, we're human and we're allowed to make mistakes. We, we aren't perfect. And I struggle with that in my professional life too. , but it's so hard. And I try to uh, think just now being in the sport and everything, I try to tell my nieces and nephews in that or remind them of that, that we are human and everything and we, there's so much out in the world to learn and everything.
Speaker 5 00:33:22 But granted now, like my niece and nephews are getting opportunities to go snowboarding and everything back home where we are in New Mexico. Like my nephew goes to go snowboarding tomorrow for the first time and he, like his mom texted me and she was like, what gear does he need? And I'm like, I think I have a spare goggles in my room upstairs in my parents' house. Like it's in one of the bins. Like just have them look around. I think there's pants in there if he might fit them. Like little teenage boy that's like already towering over me. I'm like, I don't know if he's gonna fit them but there's gloves, everything. Just go look in there . And even like my parents have gotten into like snowshoeing and everything, um, as empty nesters now. So like the access back home, it's, they're just overall more access.
Speaker 5 00:34:01 I mean there's like another preparatory school that nearby that I know they take a group of kids snowboarding and everything. But I mean back up here in Denver there are different organizations but it's always on the weekends, which I feel like in the Denver area is so hard for these kids to learn because you know, everyone on the weekend, again, I 70 everyone's trying to make it up to the mountains and you're waiting in like three hours traffic and it's so busy and everything. But then again, yeah we have jobs on the side too. So , it's just trying to find that like nice spot, like sweet spot to get to everybody on the mountain.
Speaker 3 00:34:37 I feel like kind of breaking into that ski community for me has kind of been hard even though I've got my team, uh, I remember we were up at one of the local mountains and these young group of boys come up and they're like jugs. And I was like, oh whoa, like first how did you even notice? Cause I'm very white passing. I was like, that's kind of, that's really interesting, but also like very racist and not okay. And um, so that kind of was always like in the back of my head. And then I went, I was at a competition and this group from the states came up and they were the national team and they were playing some music while they were prepping their boards and they started playing a tribe called red and they kind of threw a backpack down and started dancing around it kind of like, you know, very stereotypical what you see in the movies, kind of like indigenous dancing. And I was like, wow, this is wild. So I feel very grateful for my community of, in like indigenous youth and indigenous like women that I feel safe enough in that environment to continue on and to kind of be a leader for those young kids and for help to help them like have a safe space to learn and just be in. It's been interesting and wild.
Speaker 2 00:35:56 Mm-hmm and that's not that long ago either, right? Like it's just so everyone, it's not like Joelle is like, you know, 60 years old talking about back in the day. Like this is recent. Like what, like within the last five years?
Speaker 3 00:36:10 Uh, no, probably like in the last 10 years. In
Speaker 2 00:36:13 The last 10 years.
Speaker 3 00:36:14 Yeah.
Speaker 6 00:36:14 Yeah. I think it's hard cause it's like you can only do so much as one person. It's like, yes I want, I want to like work on taking up space and being a good role model and making sure that like I model what I want to see in the community. But at the end of the day, like yeah we are just individuals and it does come down to like the fact that it is a community dominated by white men who really do need to step up and they do need to be the ones having these conversations and they need to be listening and they need to be learning amplifying voices and like all just this long laundry list of things that like is just not happening. And so it can be really disheartening sometimes and hard. I'm hoping like the next generation younger folks that'll be different for them. But yeah, there's sometimes where like I feel like it's kind of a write off at this point for me. There's, I don't know how much of it's gonna get better, which is disheartening to like have those thoughts,
Speaker 2 00:37:05 But why do you think it is that, you know, the, it is the year of 2023 and we're still talking about white men and white women also, you know, amplifying voices and listening and learning. Like why do you think it's so difficult for people to understand these concepts?
Speaker 6 00:37:24 Honestly, wish I had an answer for you. I don't think it should be super difficult, but clearly, clearly it is and people aren't aren't getting it. Yeah, I honestly don't know. I feel like it's just a lack of wanting it to, and also just a lack of having to live with that as your everyday identity. Like if that's not how you live and it's not what you have to think about then, and if you are in a position of privilege where you don't have to think about those things, why, why would you? Yeah,
Speaker 3 00:37:48 I agree with that. Yeah, I totally agree.
Speaker 4 00:37:49 I feel like, and I guess maybe this is me wanting to be like glass half full, like I will be an , I will. Um, and maybe, maybe it's just like, oh it's just because if those are not the shoes that you live in every day and it's, it's sometime not obvious to other people. Like I didn't realize that wow, I could ski with indigenous people and we could have real conversations and it'd be fun and I would feel accepted. I never realized that, you know? And so I've now had an opportunity where I could feel a little bit of that. But if you don't re you know, if you every day are just accepted by the community and you're just out skiing and having fun, then that's not, it's like, oh I just, you don't see it because you're on the wrong, you know, a different side. And so, so I'd like to in the glass half full view think, oh it's not purposeful ignorance , it's just because you're just living your life and you're not opening your eyes.
Speaker 2 00:38:48 You're a nicer person than I am Stephanie, I was gonna say that you're a much nicer person than I am .
Speaker 4 00:38:53 Yeah,
Speaker 5 00:38:54 I think they don't, they it's just lack of accountability. Like they that and they just that's so hard to answer. I wish I could give you wish we had more time to talk about it, but I mean personally with myself, like what I'm going through now, like I've had friends that are talking about in their professional lives talking about their d e I initiatives in their companies and from there seeing like a white male company, they're like, oh yeah, we're, we have a d e I initiative. We're like, okay, how are you implementing it? They're like, is the person brown or white, their skin color? And I'm like, wow, you're missing the whole point of diversity if you're still judging it by skin color. . Like there's diversity beyond that. And so it's just, we're living in these past times, I feel like we get to one point of saying like, yeah, we're gonna implement d e i but when they find out it's more than that, they're like, okay, no, we actually don't wanna implement that.
Speaker 5 00:39:45 Let's take a step back again and go back to what we were doing. But say yeah, we are doing it in certain like aspects to what's gonna benefit them. It's always them. Um, just being selfish in general. So, and I think it's hard too because for us we live in like two different worlds and our core, like specifically for myself, a native like brown woman, like my values do not align with the white men's world. And it's hard to explain that to other people and people try like, there's no empathy in that trying to understand. It's like lack of empathy overall. So like I said, uh, accountability, empathy, God the list could go on, but they're, I wanna say like yeah, they're never gonna understand unless they are in our shoes. Like Stephanie was saying, like, you will never understand this world that we're living in.
Speaker 3 00:40:33 Yeah, I uh, totally agree. I feel like there's a lack of accountability and understanding for sure. Especially kind of, you know, when they're out, when people are out in sacred spaces, you know, like mountains that I don't know my community holds really like dear to us. There's this, they have, I feel like not indigenous folk have this sense of like freedom as you guys were saying earlier, like, I don't know, kind of like a release for everybody and they kind of forget, I feel like that they're in this sacred space and to treat it with respect and to kind of like understand that it's not just for them to go out and enjoy but also kind of be aware of just indigenous people taking up that space is important cuz it's, you know, their land and their, where they need to go to, uh, kind of pay respect to their ancestors or just to the land itself.
Speaker 5 00:41:31 Um, yeah, and I agree with that or adding to that Joelle, I think it's, we're taught as native people to um, think send not only like acknowledge our ancestors Yes, like that's one of our values, but like also thinking past, present and future. So future being seven generations ahead, we're always taught to acknowledge that. Like how is, how are these decisions today gonna affect, um, seven generations from now? And so we're trying to think of that. Um, whereas like relating that to the government system, like our terms are, our presidential terms are only four years. How is the president supposed to implement their whole government within four years? When by, by the time they're elected people are like trying to think of their, who's gonna be running the next in two years. And so the turnaround's super quick. So everything that's they're trying to implement pretty much just goes out the window at that point. And so you need the longevity of the seven years to like really start to implement and see change in everything.
Speaker 2 00:42:33 Jo Joel, I was gonna ask you, you know, and this is something that everyone can certainly answer. What does respecting the land look like to you? Like, I'm sure that all of you have some specific examples of what that looks like, but to a lot of people they would say like, oh, well that's very subjective. What does respecting the land, what does that mean to you? What are, what are people doing? What are they saying? How does that respect actually manifest itself in on the land?
Speaker 3 00:43:00 Yeah, so my teachings with kind of the land and being on it is you're not taking, but you are also like, geez, um, I am not very good at explaining things. I'm just gonna say that flat out I'm terrible at it. I'd be a bad teacher. I don't know how my kids learn how to snowboard. It's amazing. Um, but there's like, you're not going out there selfishly. You're not going out there with the mindset of like, I'm, I wanna do this and I'm going to go out and do it. It's kind of like this relationship you have where you're going out there being like, I'm going to respect the land. I'm going to kind of give back and honor its spirit at, I don't, it's, I really don't know how to explain it properly, but kind of, you know, when you go first, get out there, I always like offer something if it's, if I only have water, you know, I'm offering water as a thank you for, you know, hosting me and whoever is with me and just kind of saying thank you and you know, I, uh, yeah, I'm terrible at explaining things.
Speaker 3 00:44:10 I don't know if that makes any sense. You're not terrible,
Speaker 2 00:44:12 Not terrible. You're doing just fine.
Speaker 4 00:44:15 I think I wanna, I wanna jump in if I can and say like, and I grew up in a, in on both the land I'm in now and the tribe in which I grew up are both water based, so they're both coastal. And so I think it, it provides a very different look at what land means because the most majority of your life and your sustenance and your existence is water based. So, and, and from that standpoint, I always learned and, and to this day, like it's, you don't, even as indigenous people, you don't own that land. That land is not yours. That land is its own. And when you go out there, you're, you're on it. But it's also that water, that snow is the lake. It's the river and that land you honors also the wolverines, it's also the wolf packs. It's not just, oh, I'm on it and it's, it's my tribe's land.
Speaker 4 00:45:19 We always learn. It's it's com it's always, uh, now I'm really bad at explaining. It's always, um, like it's infinite. It's not just, oh this is this land now. Right? It is always changing constantly and it's not yours. You are just a part of it. So when you go out on the slopes or you go out and you're enjoying the back country, you have to remember you are enjoying this wilderness. You're not owning that wilderness. So when it's not yours, something else's and it's own entity, you don't just go into someone else's house and just trash it or just be like, oh, it's mine now. You know, the, the, the back country or the, the wilderness is, its in the land is its own. So you inherently, when you are on it, you are owing a, a major amount of respect and your life to that.
Speaker 6 00:46:11 Yeah, I think with backcountry skiing too, there's like, I've seen lots of comments about like, oh, like secret STEs or secret powder spots or like, well I'm not gonna share my like favorite places with the newbies. I don't want them to get super busy. And it gets, it's really frustrating to hear those comments cuz like, we're recreating on stolen land. This is not your land. Can you please at least acknowledge that? Like you don't own that powder spot. And yeah, I just think it, it's hard to hear those comments from people and then also be like, no wonder new people don't wanna ski if like that's how it's gonna be. I think like relationship with land, it has to be reciprocal, it has to be long term. And I think there is like a lot of space in the outdoor world for that to be the case. Like, you know, especially with like outdoor like backpacking and camping, like leave no trace is already like such a huge movement and like there is a lot of space to have those conversations and the outdoor world is such a great area to implement these like changes. I don't really know where I was going with that, but I had to make that comment. .
Speaker 2 00:47:07 That's true. The gatekeeping is is for real. It's very real. So I'm curious sort of last last question for, for us tonight. Um, when you think about the future of snow sports and you, you think about, you know, Taylor, you had just mentioned that you're thinking seven generations ahead, right? If you could all cultivate the world that you want to exist, seven generations ahead, what does it look like in not just snow sports but the outdoors do, do you have a vision for what you'd like to see?
Speaker 5 00:47:38 I guess I'll go ahead and take a stab out of it. Stab at it. Oh my goodness. I think for myself, just since I am on the resort side and going through the whole thing of having the debate of icon or epic passes, which are na you, but more so seeing how, especially with like where I am in my professional life, we kind of deal with veil resorts and everything. It would be amazing to see if one of those resorts were given to a local tribe and for them to run it, operate it. That would be a dream of mine. That'd be very nice. And still like, yeah, still stay on the e icon, epic icon Pass whatever one you wanna do, whatever, whichever resort wants to hop on this idea . Um, and slowly see where that goes. I mean, you see some resorts doing land acknowledgements, but what is that doing?
Speaker 5 00:48:26 Like it's a small sign on there, wherever they wanna put it, but give a resort to tribe and see where they can go. Like you see these tribes operating casinos like hard rock casinos in Vegas and doing like, making money off of that and giving it back to their people offering like discounts for natives room, discounts for natives and everything. And so that like going back to the whole land acknowledgement thing that has to, you have to like give a discount rate to someone or something or those peoples to like truly acknowledge them or like have a camp for a week or whatever and do that. Like you really just need to give it back, like fully give it back to those people. And I think just going off of that, like seeing more schools and organizations pop up and seeing bigger brands partner with them, that'd be nice. .
Speaker 3 00:49:14 Yeah, I think I kind of would like the same thing, you know, just partnering with each other or you know, kind of giving, I feel like indigenous communities operate so differently from non-indigenous and it would be awesome to see a resort owned by an indigenous community. I feel like there would be a lot of, you know, a lot of giving, a lot of support. I think that'd be sweet that that'd be the dream. Honestly.
Speaker 6 00:49:41 I'd like to see more scholarships and initiatives like this one modeled by other companies. I'd like to see them step up rather than just like talking the talk, actually walk the walk. But I think like long term ideally I I would wanna see like an outdoor world where like these things aren't even necessary anymore. And like access is not a huge issue and inclusion is just a given. Yeah. That would be like the dream come true. But until then I, I think there's tons of spaces where people could step up and keep doing really cool things like this and offering these opportunities to people.
Speaker 4 00:50:12 Yeah, I think for me it's, there's like two aspects that I'd love to see. I mean besides the like mic drop, I just wanna see inclu and not be even have to be a thing of like, whoa, that amazing. What a world, I can't wait. Um, , I'm, I'm going with optimism on that one. And um, but I think for me right now, where I stand today is, is really twofold. And I really, you know, got brought up earlier when we were talking like, you know, there's other communities like a climbing community for example, that's really, uh, leadership oriented. Like, oh, you know, we'll teach you no one's, you know, you don't start by running and it's totally accepted and it, it's like we want to foster the newbies in the next generation and it's a really open feeling when you go to learn. And so seeing that more accepted in this community that you don't, and the snowboard community, that you don't have to just be an expert.
Speaker 4 00:51:12 And sometimes I think that starts with the big companies that show that show like, oh, here's what skiing looks like. All you see is extreme skiing, , all you see is the people who are already amazing pros that our sponsored by these ginormous companies like Red Bull. And you're like, wow, I could never even start there. How do I see? You know, whereas in climbing, you see, I, or at least I see more even in advertisements where it's not the best and most amazing climber on the face of the planet , it's just somebody climbing and you're like, oh, I couldn't do that maybe. And so I think those two maybe blend together. I would love to see brands embrace not just Yeah, yeah. You know, I, and I think it would be nice to see, you know, the, the, the attitude around learning to ski and snowboard be more of fostering and less of competition.
Speaker 4 00:52:15 Um, I think that would be really cool. And taking a, a note from climbing your mountain or backpacking communities and saying, we want to, to start teaching people instead of just producing major sponsors , um, and producing competitions. So I think that would be really neat in the community. Uh, and then the other one would be, okay, which was also brought up earlier, uh, would be more, you know, non-binary and women focused groups that in, in skiing and snowboarding. And I had last year for the first time actually went out with a female and non-binary group for the first time. I've never actually been skiing in my whole life in the back country where it was just non-binary and females. It wasn't male leadership, it was the first, I am in my thirties and it was just this past year that I experienced a non-male leader in the outdoors and it was the coolest thing.
Speaker 4 00:53:17 And I think pushing like the community, pushing more for that for companies or, you know, outdoor schools or even ski schools to more focus on skiing lessons for women or you know, whatever that is. And I would love to see that in the future and really be focused on in the next seven seven years. Because I think that if you kind of focus on those two aspects, a lot of other things might get to fall into place. So I mean, also it was really neat when I was skiing with women, uh, and there was a older indigenous woman with us and she's like, I have something that is a secret weapon. And we were like, what? Like you're talking about , so really out of the blue she's like, well I have to go to the bathroom, right? But ski gear is not normally made for squatting to go to the bathroom, but I have something called the great equalizer is what she called it. And it was like a stick that you, or like a tube that you put in your pants and it makes it totally into peeing standing up. And she was like, see how great this is? It's the great equalizer. I can just pee standing up anywhere. And you know, like, so when you're not surrounded by people you feel comfortable with, you can just like whip it out like the dudes do . And I was like,
Speaker 2 00:54:35 Little things, isn't it? It's,
Speaker 4 00:54:36 It was a little, I was like, wow, this is a great conversation. I could not be having this conversation in a different group . And it was really funny to be like, yeah, wow, for all the people who have to squat and pee, this is a wonderful conversation. and groups that are diverse breed those conversations and find solutions to unique problems that aren't the average problem or whatever. So it just made, it just made me think of that and go like, yeah, wow, how is it only in 2022 that I'm experiencing a non-male leader in outdoors? So
Speaker 2 00:55:15 Everybody wants to know , everybody wants to know.
Speaker 5 00:55:19 And I think lastly, just adding to it, um, seeing more indigenous people included in brands, represented in big brands. Um, I mean the only person I can think of is like Spencer O'Brien who has like how many X Games belt. Um, that's probably the only person I can really think of. And just like including them, giving them the, giving indigenous people those sponsorships because we're totally capable of it. And even if it is just a little hobby we do on the weekends or just whatever days we have off, like we wanna enjoy it just as much as everybody else and we can.
Speaker 4 00:55:55 And I think Coalition Snow does a really cool thing that I noticed about this scholarship, which was amazing, is they don't just give the scholarship to the best ultimate snowboarder or skier. It's not like you are already top of your game, so we're gonna sponsor you now that you've already gotten there and you've already had these resources, we're gonna give you more. They're like, oh, what about other people who still, you know, so it's not just big name. You know, it would be nice to see, like Taylor was saying, these big companies sponsor more indigenous people but also sponsor people who are not just the next Olympians. So that even if you are indigenous or you're Hispanic or you're not from a community that is highly represented, you could still say, Hey, but that person is not X Games level. I don't have to be X Games level to ski. So that, that and that, incorporating that in there too, I think would be really, really inspiring and help maybe bridge a gap with, you know, a lot of us learning to ski later in life.
Speaker 2 00:56:58 Well, and that, that requires this like one of the big cultural shifts in snow sports, which you all have just spoken to, which is we don't need to see experts jumping out of helicopters. You know, we don't need to see this like full send hucking yourself off of cliffs helicopters. Like some people do that, some people enjoy watching that. Also other people have a different approach to being, um, in the snow to being outdoors and they want to see that represented. Um, and so that sort of like cultural shift of like what, what are the images and what are the, you know, these videos and what, what are the words and what is it that we're using to describe this experience as, because we all know who, who created those. Like we all know who's responsible for, um, that backbone in, in snow sports. And it is, you know, by design exclusionary. So you have to undo that and you can't undo that by doing the same thing.
Speaker 5 00:57:56 Yeah, completely agree. I know when I tell my parents I'm snowboarding, that's the first thought that comes into their head. It's like, are you doing the extreme stuff? Or even my nephews, I'm like showing them videos. They're like, or I come back from the resort and show them videos. They're like, we want a scene. And I'm like, average Joe over here. I'm like, okay, yeah I can do this . And they like make me feel like I'm on top of the world and I'm like, yeah, I can do this. Like standing a little taller after that talking to them. Um, it's just showing them those little things. Cuz I mean for myself, like kids are sponges these days. They absorb anything in everything. So if they see just one person they know that's a space where they can go too.
Speaker 7 00:58:32 Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 00:58:34 And that might be the place to start, right? You can't be what you can't see. That might be it. Well, I think we are about out of time here. I want to thank Taylor and Joel and Stephanie and Saskia for joining us. Joining us today on Juicy Bits. I'm going to put the link to the Indigenous Backcountry Scholarship and the show notes. We have more information on all of these incredible human beings and also, you know, you're welcome to support the scholarship. How do you take a land acknowledgement to the next level? You put some fucking money behind it. You could do that. Listeners also, there's might be some cute skea stuff you can pick up too that on the land partnered with them. So that's all on the website. And yeah, what, just thank you so much to the four of you for conversations that I think we need to have over and over and over again until we get to the point where we are seeing that future and that vision that all of you want. So thank you so much for being here. Congratulations on being recipients of this year's scholarship and, um, looking forward to see what all of you do and how you change the industry.
Speaker 3 00:59:38 Thank you.
Speaker 8 00:59:39 Thanks for having us. Thank you.