Sophie Mackintosh: Author of Cursed Bread

This week, Jack is joined by novelist Sophie Mackintosh. Sophie's first book, The Water Cure, was published in 2018 and was long-listed for that year's Booker Prize. In 2020 came her second novel, Blue Ticket, and this year she published the haunting and dreamlike Cursed Bread, which was long-listed for the Women's Prize. Sophie was also included in Granta's Best of Young British Novelists list.

Purchase Cursed Bread

(0:23) Introduction
(1:11) Building rapport with readers
(4:46) Childhood reading
(14:59) Writing from reality
(22:49) Recent reading
(29:30) Cursed Bread 

Welcome to Mostly Books Meets, a weekly podcast by the independent award-winning bookshop, Mostly Books. Nestled in the Oxfordshire town of Abingdon-on-Thames, Mostly Books has been spreading the joy of reading for fifteen years. Whether it’s a book, gift, or card you need the Mostly Books team is always on hand to help. Visit our website.

The podcast is produced and presented by Jack Wrighton and the team at Mostly Books. It is edited by Story Ninety-Four. Find us on Twitter @mostlyreading & Instagram @mostlybooks_shop.

Meet the host:
Jack Wrighton is a bookseller and social media manager at Mostly Books. His hobbies include photography and buying books at a quicker rate than he can read them.
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Cursed Bread is published in the UK by Penguin Books

Books mentioned in this episode include:
Junk by Melvin Burgess - ISBN: 9781783440627
The Magic Toy Shop by Angela Carter - ISBN: 9780860681908
Close to Home by Michael McGee - ISBN: 9780241582978
Study for Obedience by Sarah Bernstein - ISBN: 9781783789931
Sea State by Tabitha Lasley - ISBN: 9780008390976
The Dance Tree by Kiran Millwood Hargrave - ISBN: 9781529005219

To find more titles, visit our website

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Mostly Books

Award-winning indie bookshop in Abingdon, Oxfordshire.

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[00:00:00] Jack Wrighton: Welcome to Mostly Books Meets, the weekly incurably bookish. We will be talking to authors and creatives from across the world of publishing and discussing the books they have loved. Looking for a recommendation? Then look no further. Head to your favourite cosy spot and let us pick out your next favourite book.
On the podcast this week, we're thrilled to be welcoming novelist Sophie Mackintosh. Sophie's first book, The Water Cure, was published in 2018 and was long listed for that year's Booker Prize. In 2020 came her second novel, Blue Ticket, and on the 2nd of March this year she published the haunting and dreamlike Cursed Bread, which was long listed for the Women's Prize. Sophie was also included in the Granta's Best of Young British Novelists list. Sophie, welcome to Mostly Books Meets.
[00:00:55] Sophie Mackintosh: Hi, thank you so much for having me.
[00:00:56] Jack Wrighton: Our absolute pleasure. Now, Sophie, back when I started bookselling, previously at Blackwell's, I remember when The Water Cure came out, and it was a favourite of mine at the time, and you did an event with another novelist, Rachel Heng, who wrote The Suicide Club.
You know, I remember that event and that being your sort of debut novel. Now you're three novels in, obviously you included on sort of the Granta list, do you have a sort of a sense of, you know, I'm an established novelist now, or does that feeling never arrive? Do writers just spend their lives, you know, always feeling like they're the kind of the new upstart, or what's the feeling for you?
[00:01:33] Sophie Mackintosh: That's such a good question. Yeah, it's been something I've been thinking about lately with the Granta list and just, you know, the concept of three books in. I mean, there was a time not that long ago when I couldn't even imagine finishing one book, and I think every time I sit down to write a book, it still seems vaguely implausible that I will finish it and, you know, I'm writing my fourth now and I'm still kind of Googling how to write a book. How long should a book be? So I think, you know, I definitely feel more established, but that sense of, I guess, like, sort of unreality and a little bit of surprise and shock never really goes away.
[00:02:07] Jack Wrighton: Yes, do you, I don't know, do you sort of walk down the street and then just sometimes have moments where you think, oh yes, I've got three books out now, and you know, and that means as well that, you know, I think when you talking to other writers on the podcast, you know, when they have one book out, they realize, oh, people are out there, they're reading that book, and that's a kind of exciting but also kind of scary time when the book is kind of released to the world.
But now you're sort of in a position where people will have a kind of a relationship with your writing. You know, they've read several of your books, and that must be a very interesting relationship to have with a kind of readership in those instances where you sort of come into contact with that.
[00:02:45] Sophie Mackintosh: Definitely, like, it's a really amazing experience whenever I read, whenever I meet anyone who's, you know, read all of them, and it's it's just really cool to think of, I guess, my work in terms of a larger picture. Like, I think with a debut, you're like, okay, it's one book, and then, like, my books are not connected, but thinking of it in terms of returning to the same themes or similar themes and... Yeah, just kind of building up this sort of body of work sounds so cringe. Yeah, it's definitely, it's so like nice to you know, hear the perspectives of people who've read all of them and to see, you know, people who do have that connection and stuff and yeah, like, like nice kind of moments, like, my friend's on holiday in Italy and she's in like a small town and she just went into the bookshop there in this small town and was like, they've got your book, like, and it's translated into Italian and that's the kind of moment where I'm like, okay. My book's like translated into Italian and it's in the small town, like not really a touristy place or anything, like it's kind of, it's kind of real.
[00:03:40] Jack Wrighton: Yeah, it really becomes its own beast, doesn't by, you know, again from talking to other novelists, I mean, it must be bizarre and sort of thrilling to just go, oh, yes, there's an Italian translation, you know, it's migrated into a different vocabulary almost, and that, I don't know, must be such an interesting feeling that this thing that you've sat with for months on end, worried over certain parts and other parts maybe have come easier, and then just once that's out, it kind of just sort of snowballs and kind of becomes its own creature.
[00:04:13] Sophie Mackintosh: Yeah, definitely, I mean, I wish I could read every language so I could read my translations and you'll see like, the interpretation and stuff, like, I just think it'd be so interesting.
[00:04:21] Jack Wrighton: Yes. At least you can enjoy I think one thing, at least it's always fun, is getting to see the covers, even if you can't read the language, just seeing how the, kind of, the cover's been been interpreted, and in terms of writing, you said there was a time where, sort of, you know, finishing one book didn't necessarily seem possible.
Have you always been, sort of, going back to, we kind of like to explore the lives of our guests and in terms of the books they've read. When you were younger, were you always interested in the written word? Were you much of a reader? Were you interested in telling stories yourself?
[00:04:53] Sophie Mackintosh: Yeah, I was a massive reader. I really loved reading. I also really loved like drawing and I think, you know, as a teenager, I kind of, I found myself returning to writing and I never really stopped reading, but yeah, returning more to writing as opposed to kind of, more visual stuff because I was quite into photography and yeah, so that sort of sense of returning to written word and kind of getting more to poetry and realizing how much I loved it.
I remember I was doing a sort of a textiles course at college and kind of skiving off to go write in a cafe and feel like cool and French. Then I kind of thought maybe I do want to move more into writing and I ended up then going to uni to do English and yeah, it was always kind of something I loved doing.
I think I didn't really, I didn't, I guess, have much concept of the idea of like, you know, what does a novelist do? I was like, you know, you write a book and whatever, but I tried to, you know, write my first book when I was 17 in my bedroom and sort of, you know, getting like 3, 000 words in and suddenly being like, oh, this is actually really hard, this is really difficult.
[00:05:55] Jack Wrighton: Yes, it's interesting, isn't it, because novelists touch our lives in different ways, you know, even if you're not a reader, you might have enjoyed films that are adaptations of kind of novels, and yet, as a job or as something to do, it seems to be up to a lot of the time novelists to kind of work that out for themselves.
You know, you're not told when you're younger, Oh, this is how people, you know, write books. It's kind of never talked about as a career, and yet actually it has, you know, a kind of a massive effect on the kind of cultural landscape of our lives. So yes you get this as you say, sort of people just going, wait, how do you do this? How do I actually do this?
[00:06:36] Sophie Mackintosh: I guess it's like, as well, like, novelist as a career, it kind of, I just feel, especially, you know, having chatted to lots of other people recently, and, like, as part of the Granta list and stuff, it's just like, it's not really... It's very rare to like just have a career as a novelist, like I do other everyone kind of does other stuff, you know, I do copywriting, I teach it's kind of the idea of, I guess, like completely full time, sitting in a dressing gown, smoking, having some deep thoughts. It's kind of, there's a really, that maybe was, yeah, like novelists like 20 or 30 years ago or something, but it's a lot more kind of, I guess, fragmented now.
[00:07:10] Jack Wrighton: Yeah, it hasn't been saved from the whole sort of portfolio career avalanche that's kind of overtaken everyone's lives of like having to sort of, yeah, juggle multiple things at once, and so, yes, when you were younger, were you reading a lot? Are there any books that you remember from your childhood that really sort of stuck out to you as titles that you enjoyed?
[00:07:31] Sophie Mackintosh: I was reading a lot yeah, I kind of would read anything as well. I was in the library a lot. I always remember Junk by Anthony Burgess. Yeah, the young adult book about heroin. I absolutely loved that and it kind of really stuck with me, and I really loved The Magic Toy Shop by Angela Carter. That was kind of a really fundamental book for me. Like, yeah, I remember reading that and kind of just feeling so, you know, excited about words. But I was very, like, indiscriminate. I'd kind of read anything that was lying around.
[00:08:02] Jack Wrighton: Yes yeah, a hungry reader. I feel when younger people particularly are into reading they're sort of, you know, they're undiscerning in the best way in the sense of, you know, they're willing to read anything. I think it's as we get older that we can become a bit constricted. You know, even I find myself working in a bookshop, you know, realizing that, oh, actually I haven't read this type of book for a long time. You know, it's easy to kind of get stuck in your area, and you mentioned poetry was an interest, because one thing I do remember when The Water Cure came out that I think I remember maybe some of the press we received or things like that, that you were sort of described as a poet who was then, you know, writing a novel, is poetry still a big part of your life? Are you publishing poetry in pamphlets and things like that or,
[00:08:49] Sophie Mackintosh: No, unfortunately not. I haven't written poetry really for ages, or if I do it's kind of just for myself really. But I think it's kind of nice to have something writing wise that is just for yourself. I think, you know, anytime I'm writing anything, it's always that instinct of like, oh, is this a short story?
Is it a novel? Does it have legs? Like, you know, can I use this for something? With poetry, I'm a bit like, no, I'm just like literally going to write it in a little weird document, never show it anywhere and sort of have this little thing for myself and sort of enjoy it. Maybe if I wrote anything good, I would consider it.
But Yeah, it just, it feels like kind of, I suppose it's like almost an equivalent to like a diary for me. Something kind of quite private, but it's nice to kind of return to that space.
[00:09:29] Jack Wrighton: Yes, yeah, because it's something I've always felt, I mean, my knowledge of poetry is abysmal, it's terrible, but one thing I've always felt reading your work is there's the kind of poet's kind of deep understanding and kind of use of language in the sense of in very few words a lot can be evoked and there's a lot kind of underneath the surface and that's something that's really you know, stood out for me in terms of your writing and is that something that you've, you know, you've always sort of gone for? Or is that just something that naturally, is that a silly question? Because for you, you're just like, well, that's how I write, you know, it's not something I've sort of consciously thought about or... Yes.
[00:10:08] Sophie Mackintosh: No, thank you so much. That's really nice. Yeah, no, it's definitely something I consciously think about. I think I love like giving that attention to language and kind of trying to create these images which feel very specific and like very kind of visceral. It's definitely a conscious choice, and like, kind of the images, like don't come out like magically like that.
I'm a massive drafter. So I'm always thinking about, you know, how can I kind of, I guess, get it as distilled as possible, but as kind of evocative as possible, and yeah, like I guess kind of paying attention to that sort of aesthetic sense of it. It's really important. So I think it's just, it's part of the whole experience of like, you know, of reading my books, it's kind of that sense of atmosphere, I think. But yeah, in first drafts, often like when I'm writing is, it's quite like, Maybe not as beautiful for sure.
[00:10:56] Jack Wrighton: Of course, yeah.
[00:10:56] Sophie Mackintosh: But it's like kind of finding those images and those kind of moments and being like, ah, okay, this is what I'm tryintrying to like, get at,like kind of bearing that in mind and sort of polishing up the rest.
[00:11:07] Jack Wrighton: That kind of, yeah, sort of intense fine tuning is certainly something I've always got from your books. It feels, you know, cringe to say, as you said earlier, you know, because it's a bit of a stereotype that the, you know, about sort of every word kind of counting. You know, I think that's something you get from a lot of books, but maybe some more so, you know, than others.
I feel yours are a very... Yeah, each word has a kind of a weight to it, and so, in your teenage years, did you ever have a slump in reading? Was there ever a time where you thought, Oh, actually, you know, books aren't for me? Or did that stay pretty consistent for you?
[00:11:41] Sophie Mackintosh: I guess I was definitely more of a reader in my kind of earlier teens. I think in my late teens I maybe just got a little bit distracted by partying and having friends and running around but definitely like writing was like always there for me and it was always kind of my favorite thing and always a really nice way to, I guess, like, sort of reconnect with myself and stuff.
I think well, in my late teens, I guess the internet sort of exploded a bit. So I probably spent more time on the computer you know, chatting to randoms on MSN and yeah, on MySpace and stuff. The good old days.
[00:12:18] Jack Wrighton: Yeah, and MSN. I think about the MSN days. Sort of, yes, it was a bit of a, I mean, the internet is still a kind of a wild west in many ways. But then, we were just kind of thrown into this world, and there was no precedent for anything. Everything was just, yeah...
[00:12:35] Sophie Mackintosh: It's kind of cool because I liked having that I guess the years before where I was just in a small town in Wales and just kind of read what I wanted and explore like my interests in a way that wasn't influenced so much by the internet, and then, yeah, it kind of felt like there's so much overwhelming information now and you can go on Twitter and have like a million recommendations and you see what everyone else is reading. It's almost like, yeah, when I was kind of a younger teenager, I guess I was just kind of a bit more isolated and was just kind of picking up whatever looked good and you know sort of opening myself up to these. Maybe things I wouldn't read now, yeah.
[00:13:06] Jack Wrighton: Yes, yeah, absolutely, and where was, sorry, that small town in Wales, where was that? Where did you grow up?
[00:13:12] Sophie Mackintosh: It's called Narbeth in Pembrokeshire. So it's sort South West Wales.
[00:13:15] Jack Wrighton: Okay, oh, Pembrokeshire, lovely. Yes yeah. Very beautiful. Yeah.
[00:13:18] Sophie Mackintosh: Beautiful.
[00:13:19] Jack Wrighton: Do you ever go back there in terms of like, I don't know, are you, again, this sounds so stereotypical to ask, but are you inspired by the landscape of your childhood or is it just, you know, is it just part of the makeup of your life?
[00:13:30] Sophie Mackintosh: No, totally, I like, I love it there so much, and I actually sent The Water Cure in a climate change version of one of the beaches, like, but it's one of my favourite beaches. So it's sort of a Wales it's not really like. Two of the men have like Welsh names and, you know, I was thinking so much of the landscape specifically and what it might be like in a kind of, you know, a couple of decades when climate change had sort of heated it up a bit.
[00:13:58] Jack Wrighton: Yes, yeah, yes, yeah.
[00:14:00] Sophie Mackintosh: It's funny to me, like, I really can't imagine it really specifically and I kind of love, love it when people kind of discover the actual beach too, when it's based on, it's called Barra Fundal, then you're like, Oh, I can like visualize it.
[00:14:10] Jack Wrighton: Oh, I'm definitely, after this I'm gonna look that up. I certainly remember it being, in my head, it was still quite, despite the climate change aspect, it was still quite green. I remember still feeling that it was a very sort of green landscape.
[00:14:23] Sophie Mackintosh: Yeah, definitely. Green and sort of lush. But there's like, yeah, there's a whole kind of it's called like the Stackpole Estate. There's like kind of a whole house there, and I didn't really base it like on that specifically, but definitely like, the surrounding beach, and it's a really amazing beach, like, you kind of get to it, you're like, feels like it shouldn't exist in Wales. It feels like something from, like, you know, it's really otherworldly, like, like a kind of paradise.
[00:14:46] Jack Wrighton: Yes, yeah, and do you find, because of course with Cursed Bread, there's a real life kind of, basis for the story that then you've taken and you've said, you know, this is a fictional story, but that's kind of where the idea kind of bounced off from. When you're creating your books, do you like that kind of sort of, bit of reality to kind of spring off to create your book or do your ideas come from elsewhere?
[00:15:09] Sophie Mackintosh: No, definitely. I think, yeah, when I was writing Cursed Bread, and I did kind of, maybe naively, I was like, oh, it'd be easier this time because I'm kind of working from a real event, I'm working from real life, and then kind of when I started writing it, and I couldn't actually really do a lot of research firsthand because of the pandemic and then because I was writing it in the pandemic, just felt like a really different headspace to be writing a book, and suddenly I kind of was like, Oh actually what I'm interested in exploring is not actually the event, but more, you know, a world kind of connected to the event that is, I can think of it as almost like historical speculation of exploring the kind of the like relationships and these themes of obsession, and actually not really, you know, doing a retelling of the novel, and it's kind of funny. I kind of expected it wouldn't turn out to be a traditional retelling, and I think there's also that kind of, I guess, like questions of authenticity and also like who kind of has the right to tell the story like it's still quite a recent tragedy felt a bit like voyeuristic to kind of completely just retell the event and all the things kind of combined to be like actually it's more interesting to you know use it as a springboard to tell a story that is about the town but not about the town it's about the poisoning but it's not really about the poisoning if that makes sense to kind of use it as a springboard and you know I love that idea of just taking an idea and you know using it to conjure a completely different world, to have that freedom to really explore it without kind of feeling so tied to a specific story or something you know, too limiting.
[00:16:37] Jack Wrighton: It's always an interesting question with, I suppose, even though it's very recent, we could roughly put it in the category of sort of historical fiction. It's always an interesting question, because it is always fiction, but some books try and get as close to the reality as possible. It's always a really interesting question about, yeah, where is the line with that?
But I must say, it really came across, because I have to admit, Sophie, I've got a terrible memory, so I'd read your letter. with my proof that says, like, sort of two booksellers sort of explaining where the idea had come from. And I'd read that ages ago when I first got the proof, and then I went to read the book and I'd forgotten about the initial story and at the beginning, I remember thinking, oh yes, I'm getting sort of like mid century sort of French vibes, but I loved that kind of, I also wasn't quite sure where we were, and then I went back to the letter and I thought, oh, of course, you know, so that. The flavour is kind of still there, if that if that makes But you've got, you've built this kind of new world from it. That's really, yeah, evident from reading.
[00:17:35] Sophie Mackintosh: Thank you. Yeah, it was fun to work, I guess, within the limitations of a real world, but also to, you know, have the freedom to kind of invent some stuff.
[00:17:42] Jack Wrighton: So you grew up in Wales, and then for studying, did you move elsewhere? Did you study within Wales at university, or did you go elsewhere?
[00:17:50] Sophie Mackintosh: I went to Warwick, so I moved to Coventry.
[00:17:52] Jack Wrighton: Oh yes yeah, I grew up in Stratford Upon Avon, so, yeah, Leamington was, I'm familiar with did you ever go to Smack?
[00:18:00] Sophie Mackintosh: I did go to Smack.
[00:18:02] Jack Wrighton: I can't believe it. The novelist Sophie McIntosh went to smack. Oh goodness. That's...
[00:18:08] Sophie Mackintosh: Apple sours and dancing to terrible music.
[00:18:14] Jack Wrighton: Don't remind of apple sours. Goodness me. Anyway, sorry to our listeners who are not familiar with the Lemington Spa nightlife of the kind of what time would that have been? When did you study?
[00:18:26] Sophie Mackintosh: So it's 2008 -2011, so...
[00:18:30] Jack Wrighton: And that was to study English, did you say?
[00:18:31] Sophie Mackintosh: Yeah, so I was at English at Warwick, but they've got a really good creative writing programme. So I did, they had it was quite unusual I guess in the UK, because they had a English degree, but you could also like take some creative writing modules, and it was a really nice cohort and a really nice team.
So, yeah, that was kind of what It was really nice. It's kind of, you know, as a student, it was kind of the dream of, oh, I can do some English modules and boring of English literature modules, not boring, but you know what I mean, kind of more then you could also have the to do some more creative projects.
[00:19:03] Jack Wrighton: Oh, amazing.
[00:19:04] Sophie Mackintosh: Think that's when I kind of realised that I could actually maybe write a book, because for my dissertation in third year, you could either do like a 10, 000 word kind of academic essay, or you could do 10, 000 word creative project, which might be like a novella or some short stories or even, you know, poetry.
So I kind of ended up going, I ended up going through that and just realizing that, you know, working on a long project was absolutely amazing, and you had to do an essay alongside it as well, kind of essentially explaining like why you'd written what you'd written, which was the bit that everyone hated.
But I also kind of loved that because I'd never really thought that critically about why I was writing what I was writing and, you know, thinking about influences and thinking about, I guess, like form and style. That kind deeply and so actually that was kind of super transformative.
[00:19:49] Jack Wrighton: And is that something you still sort of, even if informally like to do now, kind of put into kind of clear words, you know, this is what I'm doing with this novel and like, this is kind of my influences. Is that something you still do to this day?
[00:20:02] Sophie Mackintosh: Just kind of like in notes I have a really messy writing process but I have a lot of tabs open in words and I just have like one page which is actually like random notes and I kind of write down like themes and stuff so if I'm ever like, what am I actually writing about? I can just go back and be like themes.
[00:20:18] Jack Wrighton: Yes.
[00:20:18] Sophie Mackintosh: And remind myself.
[00:20:20] Jack Wrighton: I'm imagining, yes, I'm imagining a very chaotic amount of tabs. I'm imagining a whirring laptop which is like, because so many things are sort of open while you're writing.
[00:20:30] Sophie Mackintosh: I feel like every novel is like a race against time to do it before my laptop crashes and I lose all my 20 tabs that some of which are like probably unsaved or the names like "v4 tense experiment".
[00:20:41] Jack Wrighton: Yeah. I love the idea that's like the ultimate kind of clock to have on your work is either the work is finished or the laptop dies, one has to happen.
[00:20:52] Sophie Mackintosh: Yeah, I did have a, I did, like, not turn on my laptop for three days a few weeks ago when I went on holiday and I came back and I actually wouldn't turn it on and I was like, no, I haven't backed it up for ages.
[00:21:04] Jack Wrighton: But it's sorted. It's a novel. Okay. Whatever it may be is safe for now.
[00:21:11] Sophie Mackintosh: For now.
[00:21:12] Jack Wrighton: Yeah safe for now, has survived for now good I hope that continues and at university, you know in your studies Did you come across I mean some people from studying English literature even creative writing can be put off certain books because they had to kind of dissect them and study them but was there anything that stood out for you that you came across during your studies that you really enjoyed or you really got your teeth stuck into?
[00:21:36] Sophie Mackintosh: I did a module that was an English literature module and it was about literature post 9 /11. You know, I kind of, my idea of university and, you know, we'd done a lot of stuff like Gawain and the Green Knight and, kind of older books and so my idea of university was like, you know, we're going to study a lot of stuffy old books, but actually Warwick was really good in terms of having quite a lot of quite interesting modules and you had a lot of freedom about kind of designing your own, you know, the structure of your course and picking things that were interesting to you.
Like I did some poetry modules and to do this one that was, yeah, post nine level fiction. It was actually like really, it's really interesting and kind of opened me up to a lot of American writers like sort of more contemporary writers. I remember reading like things like the Granta book of the American short story and, you know, learning so much about craft just from kind of reading that in class and just, yeah, I guess thinking in terms of how, I mean, it sounds kind of really obvious, but you know, how can kind of, you know, modern events shape contemporary literature.
Contemporary literature is something that's always, like, evolving. Even in our time, you know, it's not like English literature isn't studying books that were written hundreds of years ago, but it's about how, you know, language it forms our experience of the world and how we're processing things, like, in real time and that was exciting.
[00:22:49] Jack Wrighton: And in terms of Sophie Mackintosh today, three time novelist, do you still have time for reading yourself? Is it something that you still enjoy doing, or does the kind of, your own writing take up a lot of your, a lot of your time?
[00:23:01] Sophie Mackintosh: I do still really love reading, but yeah, I don't kind of get to do as much as I want anymore. Just, I think at the moment it's just like incredibly busy. There's been a lot of kind of Granta stuff and women's prize stuff, and I've had a busy time work wise, which is like, you know, really great. So it's been nice kind of getting sort of a handle on that.
But I definitely, you know, I miss kind of having unlimited time to write, but I think I'm hopefully going to be entering a quieter, more meditative. stage so I can sort of lying on the sofa reading. I have like such a massive pile of books that I really want to get to or, you know, things I've started and I'm just like desperate to get back to it.
Do you know, what one of my favorite places to read is the bath and I think it's because it kind of feels like kind of functional but also fun. But my, when my taps was broken and I like really noticed that my reading has kind of dropped off because I don't have, it feels kind of. It's just so much more luxurious to sit down and have a read than to, like, somehow be in the bath and have a read and be sort of washing at the same time, I don't know, it's so weird.
[00:23:59] Jack Wrighton: I that, because your reading space has been compromised by the broken tap. It's like... It's throwing you off, you're like, I need that bath.
[00:24:07] Sophie Mackintosh: I literally need to, like, buy one bit for it and it'll be fixed, but it's that it's weird how sometimes, like, those tiny little barriers are kind of things that make quite big impact on your, like, you know, your productive working or artistic life.
[00:24:18] Jack Wrighton: oh, absolutely. I'm, the amount of small jobs I'm capable of putting off, and then they suddenly in my mind become... These, like, great monsters, cause I'm like, I know I'm putting it off. And then you do it, and you're like, Oh, that only took five minutes why did I seem so exhausted by that idea when actually it was, yeah, it's fine, yeah, that's that's the human experience right there, I feel for most people. I'm sure there's organised people out there who aren't like that, but I don't know what it would be like to live like that.
[00:24:47] Sophie Mackintosh: Yeah, me. I'm trying, but yeah.
[00:24:51] Jack Wrighton: And in terms of something you've read recently, are there any sort of particular books that stand out for you, that you've really enjoyed in the last sort of year or so?
[00:24:58] Sophie Mackintosh: Yeah, so I'm reading a book at the moment actually called Close to Home by Michael McGee. Yeah, it's set in Belfast and yeah, I'm really enjoying it. And I'm also just, I've just finished a book called Study for Obedience by Sarah Bernstein, which is not out yet. She's also on the Granta list, but yeah, it's like, I completely, like, sort of devoured it in about two sittings.
It's like, it was very, it's very strange and very kind of. In terms of languages, kind of, I just wanted to, you know, reread and underline a lot. I, I have like a terrible memory from books lately. I think I need to start like writing down kind of what I read. Sometimes it just kind of slips out of my brain, but sometimes I don't want to like, you know, I've been lucky sometimes to be on a good reading kick and be really enjoying Michael's book in particular and I also read a really good non fiction book recently. I've been trying to read a bit of non fiction called Sea State by Tabitha Lasley about a woman who goes to study men on oil rigs to kind of find out about their life but ends up sort of falling in love with one of them. It's really amazing.
[00:26:01] Jack Wrighton: Wow, that sounds, yeah, really fascinating. I love those non fiction books that, you know, the one line kind of subject of what's happening, you think, oh, I'd never thought I would have read a book about that, but suddenly the idea seems like the most exciting thing in the world.
[00:26:15] Sophie Mackintosh: Yeah, well, I kind of love as well, like, it kind of, makes me think about my own, you know, practice as a fiction writer, obviously, but that sense of, you know, we're talking about you take an idea and it kind of acts as a springboard and actually the book becomes something else like, you know, the idea of an author wanting to go write about the lives of men on an oil rig, but actually the book becomes about, you know, having an affair with one of them and that kind of like, you know, obsessively You know, falling in love with someone and in a sort of really strange environment, isolated from everywhere else, like, it's kind of, I just, it's really good, pretty much is what I was saying.
[00:26:48] Jack Wrighton: Yeah no, absolutely, and oil rigs, for me, I don't know, there's something inherently... I find them very creepy for some reason. They're just out there in the sea, it's something about... I have a thing about the deep sea, and that's, yeah, so great, yeah, that sounds like that ticks a lot of boxes.
[00:27:05] Sophie Mackintosh: I actually, I set the Water Cure on an oil rig in like the first draft. It'd sort of be, it'd be such a good like, I think it was, what's that like, there's that micro nation and it's like set on an oil rig in the channel or something.
[00:27:18] Jack Wrighton: Oh, yes sea something...
[00:27:20] Sophie Mackintosh: Yeah, can't remember the name, but...
[00:27:21] Jack Wrighton: Yeah.
[00:27:22] Sophie Mackintosh: Yeah, and I think that kind of, that was really interesting to me, but it was actually in the event, you know, trying to figure out the logistics of how people survive in a sort of climate change Britain on an oil rig. How do they get food? How do they get anything? It was just, it was kind of, sometimes I guess the logistics actually get in the way of telling the story and I was like, maybe it just needs a setting that's a bit more realistic.
[00:27:44] Jack Wrighton: Yeah. I bet that's very hard when you, you know, you have, because there's something so evocative about, you know, people living on an oil rig in this kind of like, climate change, kind of slightly post apocalyptic sort of landscape.
[00:27:56] Sophie Mackintosh: Yeah, it was such a good pitch, it was like, the oil rig novel, and it was really hard to lose that, like, my agent was very like, I know you like, really attach to the oil rig, but I think we have to lose the oil rig, and I was like I think I know you're right, but I just don't want to lose the oil rig, like, it's really the, ugh, so sad.
[00:28:12] Jack Wrighton: I imagine, like, a hand drawn, like, R. I. P. kind like, grave on a of paper that R.I.P. the oil rig. It just stuck somewhere, because it's like, I can't believe I lost it. Hey, there might be a future Sophie Mackintosh novel.
[00:28:25] Sophie Mackintosh: I still might write the great oil rig novel.
[00:28:27] Jack Wrighton: The great... The world's waiting for it, Sophie. We want that Oil Rig novel. Okay, yeah, so yeah, lots of interesting things that you've you've been reading at the moment, and it sounds like, again, like quite varied. Would you say you're quite a varied reader? Or are there particular types of books that kind of grab your attention more?
[00:28:47] Sophie Mackintosh: Like I definitely, you know, I definitely kind of, there's kind of things that always catch my attention. Like anything kind of really formally interesting or, you know, fragmented or kind of just something that pays attention to language I really love, but I also kind of, I will read lots of things. Like when I was on holiday and I'd run out of books, I was in Turkey and they had lots of kind of books by the pool that you just like borrow and you know, they're kind of like Marrian Keyes and stuff which I, you know, enjoyed as much as any other book and I think they're really good stories and I don't really like, yeah I don't believe in book snobbery and I'll read pretty much anything that comes my way, not to say like I'll kind of, you know, not saying I love everything but kind of willing to give everything a chance.
[00:29:30] Jack Wrighton: And in terms of Cursed Bread, you know, we've sort of... hinted at the, you know, we've hinted at the story, but for the listeners out there who haven't come across your third novel just yet, can you give us a brief sort of description of Cursed Bread and the story?
[00:29:44] Sophie Mackintosh: So Cursed Bread is a story set in a town in South France in 1951. It's based on a true event during which the inhabitants of this town were struck down by violent hallucinations. But the actual story itself is more focused on two characters, Elodie and Violet. Violet is a newcomer to the village. Elodie is the baker's wife and they sort of fall into this toxic relationship against the backdrop of a summer where strange things are happening in the town, there's a sort of sense of discontent yeah, so it's kind of a bit of a study of kind of obsession and claustrophobia, but also against the backdrop of this kind of mass poisoning and mass kind of hysterical event.
[00:30:25] Jack Wrighton: And where did you first come across this real historical event?
[00:30:28] Sophie Mackintosh: I literally just read something, like, on Twitter, it was something I clicked on, some kind of, you just, you know, the websites are like, oh, Stranger Than Fiction, this thing happened, read about the town that went mad, and I was like, okay, I'm willing to be distracted right now. Yeah, I remember having like little notes in my phone of kind of stories that were interesting, that was like, maybe I could return and there was one about like, a mass hysteria event about nuns that all started meowing and then I still had this one like next to it I was like town in France where everyone had hallucinations poison flower and I was like I think that one seems like the one that I could like return to I just kept thinking about it all the time and the sense of you know the bread which is meant to be so every day how that could kind of Possibly be the cause of the town essentially completely losing its mind and everything, know, kind of being turned upside down But there was also some really weird... there's some quite outlandish theories around it like those theories that it was a CIA experiment and that is kind of actually the one I explore a bit as well in Cursed Bread because it was never kind of definitively proved and there's still a lot of people out there who don't really believe in these Like alternative theories about what happened. So that was pretty, kind of really interesting to explore.
[00:31:39] Jack Wrighton: I think particularly in the age of, I don't know, it's so interesting that the way you came across that initial event that was the sounding board for the novel was kind of online, because yes, there's such a hunger out there for, you know, I find when I'm You know, scrolling, for my sins, scrolling TikTok, you know, some of the videos that come up are, oh, did you know in, in this date? And it's some, you know, kind of intriguing story, and even if while you're watching it, you think, oh, you know, I shouldn't be watching this, or I know I may be not getting the full story. You can't, there's something that really draws you And yeah, it must have been really interesting to explore those kinds of, you know, different theories, because that seems to be such a big part of our world now is kind of events happening and then all these different theories kind of rushing in and everyone kind of trying to work out, you know, what do I believe here? So to explore that in a fictional way through, yeah, must have been, yeah, really, a really interesting process.
[00:32:37] Sophie Mackintosh: Yeah, definitely. It's that kind of, again, that idea of like historical speculation, but also, you know, there's so much information out there and you never know exactly what's true, and it's kind of interesting with everything at our disposal to actually like not really get to the bottom of something because it happened a while ago, yeah.
[00:32:53] Jack Wrighton: Yes, and I know in what you've written about the book, notes to booksellers and things like that, a word that really stuck out for me was unravelling, because of you know, kind of it completely unravelled, but a person sort of unravelling as well, and the very sort of depths to a person, that's something that really stands out with the kind of the central characters and did you know you wanted to explore it through that very sort of, you know, personal to the character kind of way, as opposed to kind of looking at the whole town.
[00:33:23] Sophie Mackintosh: No, definitely. I mean, I tried to get some bits kind of. focusing more on the inhabitants of the town, but I think I, for me, it always felt like it was going to be a character study and just like super in Elodie's head, you know, she only kind of really registers other people in the town, as they kind of, you know, relate to her obsession really, and her kind her sense of herself. It's like very not about the inhabitants of the town, and I always think, you know, with every book, it's a bit like overwhelming, if you think about how many different ways you can tell a story and like, How you could, I could have written a completely different book that, you know, it could have been put in front of the perspectives of lots of different people that are, yeah, the book that I wanted to write was just like very much like laser focused on Elodie and her unravelling and her sort of losing herself. It's almost like she kind of is barely noticing like the poisoning until right at the end where suddenly she's oh, okay, this is happening.
[00:34:14] Jack Wrighton: Yes. It's so interesting because as an idea, this kind of, these styles of mass events, you know, they feel so dreamlike in its kind of look at kind of the obsession. They have kind of peppered history, which is also really interesting because I remember reading once about the, is it the, was it the Prague dancing where just people in Prague and I forget when it was like, sort of 1500s or maybe...
[00:34:41] Sophie Mackintosh: There's Salzburg, actually. I know Kiran Millwood Hargrave wrote a great book about this last year, I think. Yeah, The Dance Tree. Yeah, I know it is. so interesting,
[00:34:51] Jack Wrighton: Yeah, which I think is just going to bookseller mode now. It's just come out in paperback.
[00:34:55] Sophie Mackintosh: Oh lovely!
[00:34:56] Jack Wrighton: Yes. Yeah. But yes, it feels like such an interesting way. Of exploring kind of human nature. 'cause I feel we have, and I suppose Coronavirus was a sort of version of this, where we're sort of these events that kind of make us aware that everything's a bit of a veneer.
You know, we have our little routines and you know, that's very safe and lovely, but these things can happen that kind of unravel the world around us, and when that happens, you kind of learn things about yourself as well. So it's such a potent Yeah, potent.
[00:35:27] Sophie Mackintosh: In the book as well, I think, you know, they've just had the massive trauma of the Second World War as well. So the idea I guess a town that is kind of almost, like, ripe to sort of be re traumatized. That sounds kind of horrible, but you know, like, a town where anything could kind of happen because actually things seem normal, but things are, like, very not normal.
People are still dealing with a lot of things that they haven't really processed. And that was kind of interesting in the sense of, I guess, the coronavirus, this idea of, like, writing it during this time of, like, collective grief where everyone was just, like, okay, the world is completely different. Like, is it ever going to be... Is it ever going to be normal again? Like, I can't touch anyone. I can't see anyone. Like, it's really scary. We don't know what's going to happen. You know, life as you know, it's totally changed and we don't know if it will go back. So that was kind yeah, definitely a weird time to be writing it as well.
Looking back on the process of writing it now, it's like, oh yeah, it's like so much pandemic novel, like. Again, like, it's strange to think of it as such, because it's definitely not about the pandemic, but yeah, like, just the process of, you know, writing it in such a claustrophobic way, and it feels funny to me, because it's like, I mean, I couldn't touch anyone, and it's like, it's such a horny book, essentially, and It's like, I was writing all these, like, sex scenes, and I'm like, I literally can't touch anyone, and I can't, like, see another person.
[00:36:39] Jack Wrighton: Ha! Oh, yes, sort of longing and, yeah, desire are, you know, they're so... It's so potent in the book, but not just with Elodie as well, just in the sense of kind of all the other characters. Yeah, there's a real... yearning there, but it, you know, it's a real powerful source in the book that kind of, you know, pulls you along and there's also something so, you know, easy to connect with Elodie's sort of looking back on past events and kind of turning them over and kind of going through them. Again, I think when we were all kind of stuck in our homes. not able to touch anyone. We were sort of looking back on past events.
I think there's a lot of kind of introspection, you know, and certainly I'm sure everyone can connect with, you know, the whole thing of thinking, oh, at that party, I said that thing. Was that terrible? Did everyone hate me for that? You know, that kind of like social anxiety kind of like combing over little moments again feels so, despite the kind of extraordinary nature of the story, feels just so human something that you can really connect with.
[00:37:41] Sophie Mackintosh: I definitely kind of wanted also like that feeling of sort of like rumination and trying to make sense of something that you can't really make sense of like to have that feed into like the you know the structure and the style of it like you know she repeats herself a lot and there's a lot of kind of going over the same memory or same image and sometimes it's a little bit different and that was actually quite funny editorially because I don't want to feel like I'm just repeating myself and I don't want people to think like she's already said this like three pages ago or like, oh, she's got this detail wrong. I was like, no, I did that on purpose.
[00:38:10] Jack Wrighton: Yes.
[00:38:11] Sophie Mackintosh: I was like trying to like capture that feeling of like when you're like so stuck in your head and you're like going over and over and you're just like if I could just remember it like one more time I can figure out something I can, you know, understand it and get some kind of closure.
[00:38:24] Jack Wrighton: We'll get a soundbite of you going, I did that on purpose, just so, you know, that's on social media, and you can always just share that when you're like, everyone, I did that on purpose. But just one thing I found really interesting as well, and one thing I really enjoyed, is the discussion of clothes in it. There seemed to be a real certainly, for Elodie, a real sort of look you know, importance in kind of, clothing, what Violet's wearing, but also what she's wearing and what other people are wearing, and I just, that detail really intrigued me, and it really brought me in. I found that so enjoyable.
[00:38:59] Sophie Mackintosh: I think, I just, I guess clothes are like just an easy signifier, especially, you know, for the kind of different, like, sort of different classes and, like, different places. There's also something like, I think I'm a quite tactile writer, I just really enjoy, like, those kind of descriptions. They really, I guess, situate you, like, physically, like, if you kind of can imagine the cloth, you can imagine how it would feel. It's quite like a sensual experience. I think it kind of gets you quite into the book and its textures.
[00:39:26] Jack Wrighton: Mm. Absolutely.
[00:39:27] Sophie Mackintosh: And I also like, really like, it's just kind of fun to write.
[00:39:30] Jack Wrighton: Yeah, no, absolutely, yeah, absolutely, they're an endlessly fascinating thing. But yes, it's this incredibly, sort of, yeah, potent story, and of course it's out there now, and people will be enjoying it. But I wonder, for those who are listening who haven't come across it yet, would you mind reading a segment from Cursed Bread for us?
[00:39:50] Sophie Mackintosh: I'll just read a little bit from the beginning. When I recall the first time I met Violet, it embarrasses me. I hold the memories up to the light and think, did it really happen like this? And even if it did, why not tell it differently, more generously? Why don't I pretend even to myself? There's nobody left to know, nobody who could catch me out.
I could say that she came in and took my hands in hers and looked into my eyes and said she always wanted a friend, a true friend, that she could see we were alike, with twin ravaging hearts under our ribs. My dow blouse could not conceal that from her. I could say that she picked me out of everyone in the town.
I was drawn along the sun bleached stone of the pavements by hunger, by instinct, to where I had always stood, waiting. I could say a lot of things, but perhaps it's best to be honest now. I didn't sense her walking towards me on that chill morning in early spring, didn't notice her opening the door to the bakery.
Her hair was dark and loose, spilling over her stiff white blouse and the lace at its collar. She hung behind the other customers, looking at the loaves stacked behind me one by one, as if making an important decision. The other women in the shop greeted her. Welcome, they said. We've been expecting you.
She smiled at that, and I had to stop myself from brushing my hand against hers when I passed her the loaf she finally chose. But I couldn't say much to her. I was afraid of her. She thanked me and left, and through the window I saw her pause and open the paper bag for a second, as if she was considering tearing into the bread like a dog.
She closed the bag and then was gone. I stared after her until the next customer. I don't remember who interrupted me, impatient for their breakfast. You've seen a ghost, they joked, snapping their fingers.
[00:41:44] Jack Wrighton: Wonderful, thank you so much, and another thing I must say, and I know this is probably absolutely not the point at all, and you'll be like, what a ridiculous thing to say, but the descriptions of the bread in the novel also made me very hungry, because I love bread, and there's a real like, hunger in the novel as well, and I just found reading it that it just made me want to go to a bakery and pick up a fresh loaf, which again, for those who have listening and read the book, you'll be thinking, that's a ridiculous thing to say, because, bearing in mind what happens.
[00:42:15] Sophie Mackintosh: I'm also so in, you know, lockdown, people were. baking a lot of sourdough, but I actually couldn't do because I didn't have a functioning oven for the entirety of lockdown, so maybe cursed bread wouldn't have been so bready if I could have actually baked some bread.
[00:42:28] Jack Wrighton: Yeah, if you had got, I love the idea that cursed bread is just an expression for the desire of carbs that you weren't able to, how did you survive? Was it all hob and microwave or did you have a hob?
[00:42:41] Sophie Mackintosh: We had a hob, yeah hob and actually barbecue, I did, I think everyone had those kind of like quite unhinged moments of lockdown in retrospect, but there was a moment I baked a loaf of bread on the barbecue.
[00:42:52] Jack Wrighton: Why not?
[00:42:53] Sophie Mackintosh: I sort of put it in like a cast iron pan and then I put the, it was one of those big barbecues with the lids, so I just put it underneath.
[00:42:58] Jack Wrighton: Yeah.
[00:42:59] Sophie Mackintosh: It worked pretty well.
[00:43:00] Jack Wrighton: Oh, good! It worked, yeah. Listen, we had time to experiment. We were doing all sorts of things. You know, it's, yeah, it's baking bread in a barbecue, I like that. There's there might be a future Sophie Mackintosh baking without an oven. book. do a complete, yeah, left turn into alternative bakery books.
Anyway, yes, that does unfortunately, I think, bring us to the end of our conversation. Cursed Bread is out now. It's available at Mostly Books in store and on our website or at your local independent bookshop as well. Sophie, thank you so much for joining us.
[00:43:38] Sophie Mackintosh: Thank you so much for having me.
[00:43:40] Jack Wrighton: Mostly Books Meets is presented and produced by the bookselling team at Mostly Books, an award winning bookshop located in Abingdon, Oxfordshire.
All of the titles mentioned in this episode are available through our shop or your preferred local independent. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to check out our previous guests, which include some of the most exciting voices in the world of books. Thanks for listening and happy reading.