After the Vows – Sex and Intimacy

In this episode of After the Vows, Joe and Karen Coffey sit down with Dr. Juli Slattery, clinical psychologist, author, and co-founder of Authentic Intimacy, to talk about what happens when sexual intimacy in marriage feels out of sync. Juli shares her journey into this field and explains God’s intent for sex as a reflection of covenant love. Together, they unpack common struggles couples face—like mismatched desires, pornography, and expectations—and offer practical wisdom for building intimacy over time. The conversation points couples back to prayer, communication, and the hope of God’s redemptive work in every marriage.

What is After the Vows?

After the Vows is a podcast about the real challenges that arise in marriage after the honeymoon phase fades. Hosted by Joe & Karen Coffey, each episode offers honest conversations about growing together through every season of marriage. New episodes drop every Thursday, offering real talk, real struggles, and real hope—whether you're newly married or decades in.

Welcome to After the Vows, a podcast from Christ Community Chapel about the challenges that show up in marriage after the honeymoon ends. I'm Joe Coffey, and together with my wife Karen, we will gather in each episode with some friends just to talk about the real issues that happened in every marriage. I hope you'll join us. Hey, everybody. Uh, welcome to this episode of after the Vows. Uh, we are going to be talking about, uh, sexual intimacy, uh, when intimacy feels out of sync. So if you're listening to this with children, I would just suggest that you pause it and then, uh, listen to it when the kids aren't around. All right, uh, let me introduce our special guest. Um, I'm super excited about having this guest with us. First, my co host and lovely wife, Karen. But our special guest is Dr. Juli Slattery. Uh, Dr. Slattery is a clinical psychologist and author and speaker. She is also the president and co founder of Authentic Intimacy, which is a ministry reclaiming, uh, God's design on sexuality. So Julie, it's great to have you. Hey, thanks so much for having me. I'm glad to be here. Listen, uh, my first question is this what got you interested in. No, wait, before that, how long you been married? Uh, I've been married for about 31 years. Okay. And I always ask, uh, each guess this was, uh, your first year of marriage easier or harder than you expected it to be? Harder. Okay. Yes. M. Uh, and when did it get, uh, how long was it hard? Um, until yesterday. Y. I think it got much, much easier when we became empty nesters. Okay. Yeah. And then just progressively over time, I think even before that, just as my husband and I grew and grew in the Lord and grew together, got help and counseling in different areas that were difficult, it got easier. Okay. Mhm. Okay, so what got you interested in this particular field of sexual intimacy? I've been married 31 years. I know. Um, yeah, so my background is I'm a clinical psychologist. So did more general work in the beginning, and then I, uh, really was passionate about marriage and family type issues and women's issues. And then around 2011, I just went through a season of my life where God, um, really moved my heart to spend more time with him and seek his face. And it was through that journey that he burdened me for sexual and sexual brokenness. Just being in the marriage and family space and feeling like in the church, we were just kind of dropping 30,000 foot care packages on this topic of, yeah, God's with you and you can do this, but in the trenches, there were just so many different issues that people were struggling with, whether it be pornography or questions about LGBT or betrayal, you name it, abuse recovery. And so my heart was just really burden for this time. And I just started taking steps of obedience then, and here we are. Okay, now, uh, you. In my intro, I know that, uh, authentic intimacy is reclaiming God's design in a nutshell. Yeah. Ah. What do you think God's intent is for sex? Like, if I were to. I mean, you're not God, but if I were to ask God, why this? What's it supposed to do for a marriage for a couple? Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think at a big picture, and we're not going toa have time to unpack all this, but the big picture answer is that God created sex to reveal himself. And people are like, wait, what? Um, but all of creation reveals aspects of God's character. And God created male and female, the marriage covenant and the act of sexual intimacy to show us what covenant is and what his covenant love is. So God is given sexual intimacy as a way that a husband and wife remember and seal their covenant. And so it's the bodily action of what you've promised to do with your whole life. And it's multifaceted in that, but that's sort of the big picture. Yeah. I remember hearing one of our professors saying that, um, that sex, uh, was, uh, what worship should be. And we were in college where we were like, what? And he was saying, uh, it is losing yourself in the love of another under the safety of a promise covenant. And I thought, that's beautiful. Yeah, it was so, uh, so beautiful. All right, now, uh, let me start at the beginning, Mike. Like a couple that are raised in a Christian home, let's say they do things right. Uh, they're told it's wrong, it's wrong, it's wrong, it's wrong. You said, I do have at it. Have you. How do people go from 0 to 60 like that? What would you say to a couple like that? Yeah. And then I'm going to get into what the most common problems you find. I. I have a lot of questions. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Um, Yeah, I think there's so much we could talk about with that. Um, but one thing I would say is people will say, how do you flip a switch? How do you go from no to yes? And I think what I've learned in my own marriage, as well as working with many others, is that you're actually turning a dial and that the greatest sex was not meant to happen on your honeymoon. Right. And so I think a lot of it is expectations. Um, our culture talks about sex being all about chemistry and attraction and pleasure and immediately connecting. But I think that sets people up for the wrong framework of how you build a great sex life. So when you begin to think about we're building something and it's going to take time to build, there's all these different pieces involved that usually don't connect well in the first year of marriage. Um, and so a lot of it is setting the right expectations and then giving couples sort of a trajectory of, okay, well then what does it look like to build fun sex and pleasurable sex and healthy sex over the course of years? Yeah, that'd be good. I mean, that is really good. I would assume that, uh, some people have, because they had high expectations in the first year, was not great, then that has set the stage for them not to grow. I think it's great to say it builds over time because I feel like, uh, I always try to tell young couples that God made men into very simple sexual creatures. But a woman, each woman is unique. And I feel like God, uh, gave me Karen to figure out the puzzle. And this is what I was telling that now we've been married 45 years, I feel like if I died today, she got married tomorrow, the next guy wouldn't have enough time to figure out what I figured out. Which is such a great gift for me to go, oh, yeah, I know her better than anyone could. Will ever possibly know. She is mine alone to figure out. So. I love that. But, uh, really nice. Isn it is, Yeah. I always tell men, though, if you treat your wife like she's as simple a sexual creature as you are, it's never gonna be good. Yeah. Not for her. Yes. Wow. All right, Karen, I'm gonna bring you in. Uh, what were your expectations going into marriage? Cause I know you came in aerly naive and innocent. So. Yes, actually, um, my mom never had a sex talk with me, if you can imagine that. So I really. Everything I know, I learned from you. Excellent. Um, so my expectations were low. Um, all I knew was from tv. That you didn't have to say. You could have left that one, that part out. TV or movies. Um, but I think my longing was just for intimacy and to be close to you. All right, um, Julie, let me ask you this. What are the common, um, issues that you find that couples are facing when, uh, it comes to intimacy and sex? Boy, there are many, Joe. And some of it is just the complexity of the Sexual relationship. You already mentioned that, um, women are hard to figure out. And that is not just true for their husbands, but also a lot of women don't understand their own sexuality. And the research shows that most women don't reach their sexual prime until maybe their mid-30s. And that's because, uh, they have to get comfortable with their own bodies and their sexuality and communication and all of that. But then there's also complexities from our culture. Pornography is a huge one. You know, the research shows that practically every couple at this point it has been impacted by pornography. Whether one of them is actively using or both of them are, or just kind of the uh, the fallout from past pornography use and pornography. Boy, it rewires our sexual response in such a way that you can't enjoy normal sex with your spouse. But it also shapes the way we understand what sex is. Um, it really trains you to think about sex as a consumer, even if that's your spouse. Right, right. Which means that the whole, the pleasure is what uh, is happening to you rather than the pleasure being. And I remember, I think Tim Keller said that the pleasure of sex is supposed to be the pleasure of giving pleasure. Mhm. Because that's the act of love. Yeah. But pornography, there's not another personeah that's that you're giving to. It's all about, it's reversing the flow of love. Something very, very selfish. Yeah. Um, One way that I like to explain it to couples is there's a difference between sexual activity and sexual intimacy. And so pornography trains us that it's all about what the body's doing, how the body looks, how the body's responding and not the journey of sharing. Oneness of communication and soul. The soul and learning, unselfishness and listening, responding to each other. Yeah. I remember, um, in school learning about uh, uh, how pornography, uh. There's a thing called exhausting erotic potential. Mhm. Where you can show somebody that's why you need new images all the time. But God created us to be able to have sex with the same person for an entire lifetime and have it be fulfilling and exciting and not exhaust the erotic potential. Uh, is that when you talk about the difference between intimacy as opposed to the sexual kind of act, Is that what you're talking about? That there's a deeper level? Yeah, um, for sure there's a deeper level. Uh, kind of to simplify something that's really complex in one sense, we have two different kinds of sexual responses. One of them is a response to something new and exciting. Which is what pornography provides us. And that releases a lot of dopamine and um, P A, which has a really long name, but it's sort of like almost like a cocaine kind of effect on our brain and adrenaline, uh, and that creates this high. And pornography replicates that through always giving you new things, pushing the envelope. And God designed that to be sort of like the excitement of honeymoon sex or when you go away for an anniversary and you just feast on loveing. Um, but he also gave a married couple the gift of what we might call a normal sexual response. And which is not necessarily fireworks, something new all the time, but it releases endorphins and oxytocin, which creates a sense of calm and well being as well as a really connection and intimacy. Um, where you just kind of look at each other and you're like, oh, that's my person. And it fights against betrayal and unf Faithfulness. Like there's all kinds of great stuff that happens when a couple just has sex, you know, a couple times a week. It's not super exciting, but they're learning to communicate, they're learning to create safety within their relationship. Uh, and so what God has designed is the both and that there are those times of intoxication together and excitement, but there's also many, many times of just this is the way that we've learned to share and listen and love each other. And intimacy also includes the difficulties that you experience as a couple. Every couple is going to go through seasons where their desires are mismatched. They're going to go through grief together or loss. Uh, they're going to have to fight temptations sometimes, uh, recover from a betrayal or work through the impact of sexual trauma from the past. And if a couple's really thinking intimacy, each one of those situations provides an invitation to not just do something with our bodies, but to really share what sex means. And when do you feel ashamed and where are your wounds and how can I minister to you? And so over the course of years, a couple that will accept that invitation to intimacy is actually forging something incredibly deep. Yeah, there are times where, uh, Karen and I have talked about it where we uh, feel disconnected and what. And it seems, um, it doesn't seem like it's the right answer, but it is that we need to connect physically and have physical intimacy. And then we feel reconnected again. Some people wait. It seems like some. Sometimes the tendency would be to wait until you feel connected and then have sex. But you need to have sex in order to feel connected. Yeah. Um, there are two things. I mean, you have to tell me whether I'm giving people good advice or bad advice. Um, but uh, I give young couples before they get married. Uh, I say, let me leave you with each a question to ask every once in a while. And I say to the man, every once in a while you should ask your wife after sex, did you feel loved? And then. And the woman, I'll say, every once in a while you should ask your husband, how are we doing a frequency. Just because those two things seem like the things that, um, are when couples start missing. Like if I were talk to the average man, if we're sitting around, um, a fire pit and we were being honest and I said, so what's one thing you would change about sex? And uh, most men would say, I'd have it more often. Uh, I don't know. I don't think women ever sit around a fire pit and ask, what would you change? But if they said, what would you change about sex? They would, I think they would say what I would rather I would feel. Want to feel precious and love and not used. Mhm. So yeah, Um, I think that's great advice. I would give the caveat that particularly within this younger generation, there are more marriages where the woman wants sex more often than the man does. Um, so that's the case in maybe 30 to 40% of marriages now. Before it used to be maybe like 80% of marriages, the man would have the higher size. Why has that changed, do you think? Oh man, I think there's a lot of reasons. I think first of all, uh, in this generation women have been encouraged more to explore their sexuality and to be free with their sexuality. So that might be at some level positive thing. Um, uh, but I also think it's the impact of pornography on both men and women. Uh, that women's sexuality awaken through pornography. Um, but in a lot of cases, in this true of Christian couples, a man will be so discipled in pornography that he, um, either is, um, looking at pornography instead of pursuing intimacy with his wife because frankly he doesn't know how to be aroused by her. Um, wait, that's such a strong phrase I've never heard before that somebody'being discipled by pornography. Yes. Mhm. Yeah, Yeah. I, um, wanted to follow up on, um, thinking about like a woman who is just done with it and just says, okay, just get it over with. Mhm. And coupling that with what you said about a 30 year old who maybe hasn't explored her sexuality and doesn't know what is enjoyable? How do you blend those two? Um, how would you decipable a woman to enjoy? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, first of all, I really believe that we all need to be disciple in our sexuality, because I don't think any of us are. We're discipled by the culture. And so whether it's the woman that doesn't know how to experience pleasure, or it's, you know, the woman who is married to a guy who doesn't want sex and she's wrestling with what's wrong with me. Am, um, I not enough? Like, I have a real passion for discipling couples because they don't know that these problems are normal and how to take steps forward. So in that particular situation, I would really want to understand what the barrier is. And there might be several. One could be, particularly if she grew up in a faith community, that she's always associated her body and sexuality with shame. And so all she ever knows is, I'm not supposed to want this. Men enjoy this, but I'm not supposed to. Um, and so there might be some real lies that need to be brought out and addressed. Um, the research shows that about 50% of women have experienced sexual violence. And so if that's part of her story, uh, that's something that we need to talk through and that she needs healing from. Uh, it may be that her husband doesn't know how to awaken her sexually. As you mentioned earlier, Joe, men approach sex more simplistically. Their biology is more simplistic. Uh, many men don't know how to, um, be sensitive to their wife. They don't understand that their wife isn't aroused the same way they are. Um, so sex can be physically painful for a woman in that situation. Uh, so there's all kinds of things that can get in the way. How do you suggest for couples to talk about that? Because sex is always a difficult thing to. And there's so much vulnerability in that. And I know for a man, it would feel like, uh, if he's asking a woman, his wife, how was it? Yeah, that seems like a super scary question. Yes. Right. Um, but at some point, uh, in order to get better at anything, somebody's got to tell you what's working. What's working. Yeah. So you have tips about that? Asking for a friend? No. There you go. Ah. And it's interesting you say that because, um, you know, like, sex is a reflection of some of our deeper needs. So even as you ask that question, how was that? You know, men are really trained to think about Sex in terms of performance. Performance. Right, right. Um, and I actually think that men are far more complex sexually than we give them credit for. I think there's a lot underneath that. Um, so. And then women, as you mentioned, are very sensitive to, am I beautiful? Do you love me, do you want me, or are you objectifying me? Um, so there are these really deep level issues, um, that most couples have no idea how to approach. They think if I even bring this up, like, I'm tiptoeing on a landmine and it's about ready to bl. Love on my face. Um, so I think one of the best ways to start, and this is what my husband and I learned to do, is get a good Christian book on sex and read it together out loud. Now, the reason you read it out loud is because you're practicing how you talk about. And not just you read it and then I'll read it and we'll talk about it. But, like, when my husband and I have done this, we might read a few pages and I'll be like, wait, go back to that paragraph right there. That's how I feel. Um, and so it's identifying and putting words to an experience that is very difficult for most of us. But words do. Now, I know that if people are listening, they're thinking, what book did she. What book should we start with? I know you've written some books. Know, and that was my thought before when you said that you have a passion to minister to couples like this, but there aren't enough Julie's to go around. So, um, I know we will give a list of the books that you've written. I know. Available to people. What book would you recommend that a couple reads out loud? Yeah. Um, if you wanted to read one that I wrote, the book God's sex in your Marriage is the one I'd recommend on that one. But I'd also recommend. I love, um, Dr. Doug Rosenau's work. He wrote A Celebration of Sex. He also wrote A Celebration of Sex for newlyweds. He wrote a version, uh, for a couples over 50. Um, but just good, solid biblical perspective. He was a sex therapist, so also gets into the detail of anatomy, how to work through barriers and difficulties. And I love it because he's not just scholarly. Like, he really teaches couples how to have fun. And he says, you don't work at a better sex life. You have to learn to play at it. So what he has written is just sort of a really great balance of all that. Good. Very good. All right. Like, uh, when couples start to struggle. Well, in your, uh, experience, do people start to struggle early on, like in the first year and then give up or what happens? Yeah, um, I really believe most couples struggle early on, but it's sometimes a low grade struggle of we just don't know how to connect. They might just settle and say, I guess this is the best it's gonna get because we don't know where to go for help. Or within those first years, something massive can come up, like a struggle with pornography. Uh, and again, they don't know where to go for help. Um, or I think it's really common in today's day and age because we think about marriage so based on sexual chemistry that I just fell out of love or I'm not attracted to you anymore. Uh, and so that can create a real crisis of where do we go from here? This is the only way we know how to think about sex. And if those kinds of issues are addressed early, uh, there are real tools to help couples work through it. But when that has been festering for five years, 10 years, 15 years, kids get in the picture. There's no time and energy to really work on this. It really can become such, uh, an earthquake in marriage down the road that you don't know how to recover from it. But I will say, even in those situations, like God is the redeeming God. And in the work that I've been doing over these last 15 years, like the stories that I've seen of couples who have just, man, they had so much brokenness and they brought it to the Lord, they sought help. And, uh, many of those couples are just restored to a beautiful place today. Is there, um, a healthy amount of sex that is the, uh, yeah, average mean what you would say in order for a marriage to be a healthy marriage, this is how much sex you ought have. Yeah. So the research, I'll goke back to the research. It says that if a couple's having sex at least once a week, that seems to be a healthy amount. Uh, and the research also says that if you're having sex more often than that, there's not necessarily a benefit to your marriage. Although, uh, whatever a couple enjoys is fine. Um, now there's caveats there. If you have a marriage where there is not emotional safety, if there's any form of abuse, uh, you do not solve that kind of problem through sex. So I want toa make sure people hear that. Um, also I think that there are seasons where, um, couples need to take a break from sex. And if there's that constant we have to be doing this. Sometimes they get in a rut of it's all about the activity. And in those kinds of situations it would be like, let's say you are addressing a sexual addiction or pornography use. Sex isn't going to cure that. You really need to get help. If there is, uh, sexual trauma in the past for both the man or the woman, because men are sexually abused as well. Uh, sometimes the act of sex can be triggering and so you really need to get help, uh, if sex is painful in any way. And for about 70% of women, they experience some pain during sex at some point in their lives. If you continue to have sex when it's painful, you're teaching your body that this is a bad thing and something to be afraid of. So there are s situations like that where again, we have to shift to, uh, although once a week or two or three times a week is a fine norm. There are seasons where you have to say, actually, let's work on building intimacy, even if that means we go through a period of time where we're not having sex. And do you recommend, when you were talking about the pornography or trauma that um, each person gets it separate, gets counseling separately and healing separately, or are they going to couples counseling? Yeah, it really is, uh, dependent on the situation. I think probably in most cases you'd want to get that individual help along with some couples counseling. And that could be with the same expert. Or it could be, um, hey, you'd need to deal with this issue with pornography. But then we also need to bring that into marriage counseling. Of what does it look like for us to rebuild intimacy in a healthy way? Mhm. Julie, while you've been talking with couples, how do you deal with the mismatched sexual desire? Mhm. Yeah. First of all, it's very, very normal and common. And um, again, a lot of couples will freak out when it's like, oh no, we're not compatible. I think most couples aren't compatible. Like, you have to learn what it is to love each other. Um, and so I think some of it is shifting the framework of what's the goal. We don't go into a Christian marriage in terms of, you need to meet all my needs. We go into a Christian marriage saying, God wants to use marriage to teach me to love. Well, and that's true in the sexual relationship as well. Um, but something that is really practical that I think helps in that situation is understanding that there's different types of sexual desire. So there's initiating sexual Desire, which means, uh, that individual is likely to think about sex throughout the day, look forward to having sex with their spouse, be the one that kind of prompts it. Uh, and the research shows that about 70% of men have initiating desire. And then there's another have they want to be the initiator. Yes. Okay. Y. Yeah, there was one. We could get back to that one time in our marriage. I remember, uh, telling Karen I wanted her to initiate, which is not in her personality very much. And she ended up saying, uh, so you want to lead in every other area of life, but in this life. And I was going, ooh, good one. That was really good. Well done. I love that. Checkmate. All right, so go ahead. So the men want to, uh, initiate. Yes. Okay. And remember, it's only 70% of men, so not all men. And then, uh, there's another kind of desire called reception sexual desire. And it's still sexual desire, but it means that that person isn't thinking about sex, isn't always wanting it. Um, but if it's suggested and the atmosphere is right, they can get into it. So I heard one person explain it like a. Sort of like, Chinese food. There's some people who love Chinese food. They could get Chinese food every day and be happy. And there's other people as, like, I wasn't really thinking about Chinese food, but. So that could be our code word. I can say, karen, what do you think about Chinese? There you go. Uh, okay. So about 70% of women have receptive desire. So about 30% of women have initiating desire. And as men age, they tend to gear more towards receptive desire, too, because, um, their testosterone is getting lower, their oxyocin is getting higher. Um, so this changes over time. But if you are the one with the initiating desire, and you're married to someone with receptive desire, you think they never want sex because they don't initiate it. Um, but it's learning to say, okay, my spouse does like sex and wants sex, but not just the way that I think about it. Um, and so if you're married to somebody with receptive desire, it helps to use a code word to say, either we're scheduling it, or can you think about it? Like, can we plan on this tomorrow? ###row. And the person with receptive desire then can start thinking about it and planning for it and can enjoy sex just as much as the initiator. So that can be a real helpful language for couples to navigate what feels like a mismpatch. Desire. Yeah. Is there a way, um, to Softly make that suggestion. I remember, um, thinking how vulnerable it makes you to say, hey, do you want to have sex? Yeah. And to have your wife go with you? No, probably not. Uh. Cause you feel like you're putting yourself out there. Um, so I know. I remember, uh, hearing, reading about a couple back in the day when you had twin beds and he would put his hat on her bed. Ye. And that was. It seems like there's ways to. That couples try to communicate indirectly. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And then if you think about, uh, the wife in that situation, if she has receptive desire, she doesn't want to reject her husband, but she doesn't want to. Right. Then it's like, no, I was planning on doing laundry and I've got a million things going on in my mind and I'm just not there. And so couples really can learn to use a system. Whether it's, we're going to schedule sex twice a week, here's when we're going to have it, and then they both look forward to it and plan it, um, or another way. This is actually what my husband and I have learned to do over time. He kind of puts something on my radar and we have all different code words we've used over the years. And when he puts that on my radar, I know within about 24 hours I'm going to initiate when I'm ready. And so that way it takes the pressure off him, it takes the pressure off me. Um, and so there's ways like that, that again, once you learn to communicate and you're not shaming each other for being different, you can really just find a rhythm that works for both of you. I had a friend who used to wear certain earrings. Yeah, I love her hat on the bed. Right? Yeah. That's good. Yeah, that's really co. All right. Uh, so, uh, you have a lot of people who have listened to this, I think pretty intently. Um, M. Where would you tell somebody to start? Like if they're saying, yeah, we are struggling and have struggled and I know there are a lot of different possibilities and possible reasons, but they want to start the process. Mhm. Today. What do they do? Yeah, um, this might throw you a little bit for a loop, but start by praying together about it. Like, I think Christian married couples are comfortable praying about everything except for their sex life. But recognizing, boy, have I learned this in the last 15 years. Sex is a spiritual battle. And it's not just out there in our culture, it is in our own marriages. And recognizing that God put us together and he Said what God puts together, let no one tear apart. And Satan wants to use sex to divide you. God created it to unite you. Um, so it doesn't have to be a formal, fancy prayer, but just even just saying, God help us, um, show us how to love each other. Well, and then there are just tons of resources, um, out there these days that give you tools, um, like the books we mentioned. Or we have a podcast on our website called Jaba Julie. There's ministries that can help with pornography, struggle, or counseling. But just be courageous enough to fight for this. And it's not just fighting for it because you want to have a great sex life. There's nothing wrong with that. But fighting for it because this is a spiritual battle. Right? Sex will not be a neutral issue in your marriage. It's either gonna unite you, or it's gonna divide you. Oh, wow. That's very powerful. Now, I know you've written a number of books, and I know I'm not gonna. I don't want. You didn't ask me to hawk this book, but you did bring it in. It's your most recent book. It's called Surrender Sexuality, uh, how knowing Jesus changes everything. So, uh, what are the other books that you've written? Yeah, the one I mentioned. God, sex in your marriage. Um, Rethinking sexuality. There's a lot of them. So just. There's her Freedom journey for women who struggle with pornography. Just finding the hero and your husband pulling back the shades. Pulling back the shades. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. How is this book different? Yeah, this book, really. My heart in this book is. Most Christians, I mean, we recognize that knowing Jesus means that we live for him and that he invades every part of our life, that he changes us. But with sexuality, a lot of Christians don't know how to do that. They kind of live compartmentalized lives. Whether it's. I really have a question about the goodness of God related to this, or I have wounds from the past that I've really never reconciled. Um, or, uh, I have a sin struggle that causes me so much shame, I just can't even believe that Jesus loves me. And so this book is really a discipleship journey of. What does it look like to integrate who Jesus is into our sexuality? Um, and so it's really. For anyone who wants to follow Jesus, um, and is wrestling with something related to sexuality. Boy, and I'm still stuck on. Everyone is discipled into sexuality by someone. Y. It should be Jesus. Uh, Julie, thanks so much for joining us. Thanks. We are so grateful for your ministry and all that youve done. And, uh, look forward to the next time we get to be the ye. Thank you. Im thankful for you and thankful to be able to share this with you today. Thank you. Juli, thanks for joining us for this episode of after the Vows. If this hit close to home and you want to know what your next step could be, your next step could be just a conversation. Uh, we always think that it's good for you to connect with somebody who might have a little more experience, a little more insight. Uh, so we've set up marriage coaches and there's no curriculum or anything, but. And there's no long term commitment. It could be just one meeting, could be a couple of meetings. Uh, but you could sign up for that. Uh, that would be great. Another possibilities if you want to grow spiritually or through your marriage, there are other episodes of this podcast or other podcasts that you can access through our YouTube channel or a church app, but you're welcome to access all of those. Uh, but we're so glad you joined us for this episode.