Think Fast Talk Smart: Communication Techniques

“Most things that we want in life are on the other side of a difficult conversation.”
You want a more successful career, a more fulfilling relationship, a more meaningful life? What if all that’s standing in your way — are the conversations that you’re avoiding? In this Rethinks episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, Jenn Wynn, a professor at NYU Stern School of Business and previously the director of education at the Obama Foundation, joins Matt Abrahams to discuss how to build the “hard but worth-it skills” necessary for difficult communication. Whether it's asking for a raise, setting boundaries, or addressing conflict, Wynn’s insights show that the conversations you’re avoiding aren’t just holding you back — they’re keeping you from the life you really want.

Takeaways: 
  • Difficult conversations create opportunities for growth. Speaking up, setting boundaries, and addressing conflict can help us build stronger relationships and move closer to our goals.
  • Confidence comes from communicating through discomfort. Developing the skills to navigate challenging discussions helps us overcome fear and approach difficult conversations with greater intention.

Activity:
  • Have the hard conversation. Identify a conversation you've been avoiding and write down what you want to achieve and what's holding you back. Then, take one step toward having it, whether that's scheduling a time to talk or practicing your opening words.

Episode Reference Links:
Connect:

 Chapters:

  • (00:00) - Introduction
  • (01:28) - Understanding Difficult Conversations
  • (03:45) - Developing Emotional Intelligence
  • (04:45) - Self-Awareness, Pause, Reframe
  • (07:00) - Common Communication Barriers
  • (10:04) - Listening for Understanding
  • (13:11) - Feedback to Your Boss
  • (17:04) - Reinforcing Good Behavior
  • (20:04) - Using AI for Communication
  • (21:31) - Lessons from the Obama Foundation
  • (25:07) - Creating Psychological Safety
  • (28:01) - The Final Three Questions
  • (32:42) - Conclusion

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Creators and Guests

Host
Matt Abrahams
Lecturer Stanford University Graduate School of Business | Think Fast Talk Smart podcast host
Guest
Jenn Wynn
Former Director of Education at the Obama Foundation | Professor | Leadership Coach

What is Think Fast Talk Smart: Communication Techniques?

One of the most essential ingredients to success in business and life is effective communication.

Join Matt Abrahams, best-selling author and Strategic Communication lecturer at Stanford Graduate School of Business, as he interviews experts to provide actionable insights that help you communicate with clarity, confidence, and impact. From handling impromptu questions to crafting compelling messages, Matt explores practical strategies for real-world communication challenges.

Whether you’re navigating a high-stakes presentation, perfecting your email tone, or speaking off the cuff, Think Fast, Talk Smart equips you with the tools, techniques, and best practices to express yourself effectively in any situation. Enhance your communication skills to elevate your career and build stronger professional relationships.

Tune in every Monday and Thursday for new episodes. Subscribe now to unlock your potential as a thoughtful, impactful communicator. Learn more and sign up for our Newsletter at fastersmarter.io.

The conversations we most want to avoid
are often the ones we most need to have.

My name's Matt Abrahams, and I
teach Strategic Communication at

Stanford Graduate School of Business.

Welcome to this Rethinks episode of
Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.

When I first spoke with Jenn Wynn, I
learned so much about what makes difficult

conversations challenging and how we
can approach them more effectively.

Her advice on managing our emotions and
finding common ground is worth revisiting,

so we're bringing it back for all of you.

And this time, we're sharing the
extended version of our conversation.

Enjoy.

Often the things we really want are on the
other side of a difficult conversation.

My name's Matt Abrahams, and I
teach Strategic Communication at

Stanford Graduate School of Business.

Welcome to Think Fast,
Talk Smart, the podcast.

Today, I'm really looking forward
to speaking with Jennifer Wynn.

Jenn is a professor at NYU Stern
School of Business, where she's

taught a class on difficult
conversations for nearly 10 years.

Previously, she was the Director of
Education at the Obama Foundation.

Additionally, Jenn hosts the H.I. Note
podcast and runs a consultancy focused

on organizational transformation,
change leadership, and repair.

Welcome, Jenn.

I'm really excited for our conversation.

Thanks for being here.

Thanks for having me, Matt.

I'm excited to be here with you
and the listeners, which include

my executive MBA students.

Yes, absolutely.

Well, shall we get started?

Yes.

So you teach a course on difficult
conversations, and I'm curious, what

makes conversations so difficult?

Is it the topic, the
emotions, the circumstances?

Where's the difficulty come from?

I wanna say all of the above, but
at the core, it's the emotions.

It's the emotional reactivity.

So a quick way to think about this,
in my first class of the difficult

conversations course that I teach,
I ask folks to call out topics that

are difficult for them to discuss.

And while they're calling it out, I'm
typing the list into the slide deck.

And we very quickly not only fill the page
with topics, but then you come to see that

what's really difficult for one person
is not that difficult for someone else.

And in fact, some people enjoy it.

So a topic like negotiations
will terrify someone.

"I don't wanna negotiate my
salary or getting a promotion or

negotiating fees with a client."

And someone else will say, "Oh, I love
a good negotiation. Let me take your

negotiation on for you." Or saying no
when a team member or direct report wants

extra resources, or a loved one asks
you for help and you've gotta say no.

And it's so interesting because not
only are people really unique, even

idiosyncratic, it shows you that what
makes a conversation difficult is much

less the topic and much more the inner
experience that each person is having.

And so effective communicators, effective
leaders know that they've gotta be

self-aware of that inner experience
that they're having in the moment.

When I say inner experience, I
mean what you're thinking and

feeling, but not saying out loud.

And what that makes you realize is
if I can be aware in the moment that

I'm triggered, then I can pause.

I can recenter.

I can regulate my nervous
system, and that way I'll be

able to choose a better response.

And I say to my students, "Your nervous
system goes with you into every single

difficult conversation." So if you can
pause and regulate your nervous system,

then you're gonna be a better version
of yourself at the time when you most

need to be the best version of yourself.

So the implication of all of that is
self-awareness and emotional intelligence

are essential for leading difficult
conversations to productive outcomes.

So we really have to reflect on our own
experience before we can actually be

present and engage in the conversation.

And I think the point you made
about difficult conversations

aren't the same for everyone.

And in fact, we need to appreciate that.

So it's really appreciating your own
experience and the emotions you're

feeling and finding a way to get
yourself grounded and be centered

and prepared before you go in.

Yes, and open to hearing and understanding
the other person's inner experience.

Because if I happen to be the one who
loves negotiations, but I'm sitting

across from the person who's terrified by
negotiations, I need to have the emotional

intelligence to be aware of their
inner state and help them manage that.

And at the end of the day, the goal is for
all members of the dialogue to move away

from emotional reactivity towards choice.

I wanna choose the better, more
strategic path, not the reaction that

came out of an emotional trigger.

It's more choicefulness.

So it sounds to me like one of the key
elements or a couple of the key elements

of managing difficult conversations
first starts with self-awareness.

Being other aware and accepting
doesn't mean agreeing, but accepting.

And it sounds almost like there's
an invitation involved where you're

inviting the other person to share
their inner experience so that you

can meet them and then ultimately
make choices in a choiceful way.

Are there particular strategies or
tactics people can use to help bring

out that information in someone?

Yes.

So we'll start with that self-awareness
piece since it is the foundation.

I tell my students, "If you only
remember one framework from this

entire course, please remember
self-awareness, pause, reframe," okay?

Self-awareness, pause, reframe.

So what does that mean?

In the moment, am I aware of my physical
cues, my cognitive and emotional

cues that let me know I'm triggered,
I'm heated up in this moment, right?

So for me, I get a lump in my throat
or, like, a tightness in my chest.

Some people get, uh,
butterflies in their stomach.

I'm curious, what is it for you, Matt?

So I, I resonate totally
with the tight chest.

When I'm ready for battle or
feel like battle's coming,

my whole chest gets tight.

Yes.

So each one of us think in advance,
"What's my tell sign," right?

And once I know that, the moment
I see it, I know I've gotta pause.

And then here's the best thing.

If I know my pause techniques, if I know
what helps me metabolize my hormones,

get that adrenaline out of my system,
really regulate my nervous system,

then I can be back to my centered self.

So a go-to pause technique for me is to
imagine myself with my best friend, Carla.

Then I'm at ease, I'm centered, and
that is our goal, that we lead these

conversations to a productive outcome,
both for the content, the matter

at hand, and for the relationship.

So that last step, reframe, is where
I actually shift away from viewing

this conversation as a threat to
something I care about and instead

perceiving it as a learning opportunity.

What good information
can I get out of this?

So self-awareness, pause,
reframe is a framework I always

ask my students to remember.

I really like the taking the
time to check in with yourself.

Both how am I feeling emotionally,
but physically, and use the

physical as a trigger to help you.

Pausing is wonderful.

I love that you rely on a friend.

I have a place I go to in my mind.

There is a particular tree in
Sydney, Australia, that faces the

Opera House and the Harbour Bridge.

And when I get worked up, if I just
envision that and what I felt like

when I saw it, it's my place of zen.

That really helps calm me down.

And then this notion of reframing from
one of threat to one of learning, one

of collaboration, one of invitation.

One of my colleagues, Michele Gelfand,
likes to say, "Mind your metaphors." And

the metaphor you bring to the interaction
helps determine how it's going to be.

So if I see it as a learning
opportunity, this difficult conversation

is going to go very differently
than if I see it as a battle.

So I really appreciate that.

Share with us some of the other
tips you have, especially if

there are particular barriers
that get in the way to doing this.

Some of the most common barriers I see
are not having the conversation at all.

I'd say a second one, not having a goal.

And a third, I'd say not listening enough.

Often when we don't have the conversation,
it's because we assume it will go poorly,

so we give up before we've even started.

But here's the thing, most things
that we want in life are on the other

side of a difficult conversation.

Sometimes it's a difficult
conversation with myself.

Sometimes it's a difficult conversation
with a loved one, a colleague, a boss.

But a lot of those things that we
really want and we've been longing

for and haven't gotten yet are
gonna require us to get to the other

side of a difficult conversation.

So are you just gonna give up on your
biggest dreams in life because you weren't

willing to take the time to step out of
your comfort zone and practice a skill?

Because that's the thing, you know
this, Matt, communication is a set of

skills, learnable, growable skills.

And difficult communication is a
set of hard but worth it skills.

The authors of Crucial Conversations say,
often we view difficult conversations in

a bit of a fool's choice, a false binary.

We think either I'm gonna go have
this conversation, I'm gonna say

the truth, and it's gonna wind
up ruining the relationship.

Or I better just bite my tongue and
not say what I'm really thinking, even

though it's really important to me, and
that way I'll save the relationship.

But choosing between telling the
truth and having an, an important

relationship, that's a fool's choice.

Really, there's a middle way where
I'm honest without the emotional

reactivity, without that charge, 'cause
I've taken the time to center myself.

And because I've had this conversation
from such a centered place, and

I've done it so respectfully and
curiously about what you're feeling

and experiencing as well, I actually
wind up strengthening the relationship

and the understanding between us, such
that the next time around we're able

to have more truth, more honesty in our
difficult conversations, and we're able

to solve some of the hardest challenges
in ways that we're really proud of.

We, we invite that collaboration
and future success.

It is important to remember that these
difficult conversations are one of many

conversations that we will likely have
with these people or in this environment.

So we're not only trying to come to
a mutually agreed to resolution in

the short term for this situation,
but we're setting ourselves up

for the future and the next one.

You mentioned listening, and
that's a skill that my wife is

still encouraging me to work on.

I'm curious, how do you help your
students to be better listeners

in these difficult conversations?

Yes.

So sometimes the issue is not
listening enough, and sometimes it's

not showing that we are listening.

So those are two distinct skill sets.

At the end of the day, I think about
dialogue as the free flow of meaning.

And so if I've done it well,
effective dialogue grows the shared

pool of understanding between us.

I understand how you made meaning
of a situation, and you understand

how I made meaning of a situation.

So that means that I've gotta inquire,
I've gotta ask enough questions to

understand how you experienced that,
that client meeting, that argument

my husband and I may have had.

And then once I've listened,
internalized the meaning you made,

I've gotta paraphrase it back
as a check for my understanding.

A real humble attempt to say, "This is my
summary of what I think you experienced,

but is that right? Fix what I'm missing.
Is it half right and I missed the other

half?" And once we can paraphrase,
this is a skill that honestly, I think

it's like punching above its weight.

Right?

After I've taken all this time to really
ask these open, thoughtful questions,

get curious, understand your perspective,
make sure you show the person that

you are internalizing what they said.

And like you said, it's not
agreeing, it's just acknowledging.

And when they finally say, "Yes,
that's it," then you've grown

the shared pool of understanding,
at least from their perspective,

and then you can go share yours.

And that's where you move into advocacy.

But at the end of the day, the
balance you're looking for is

inquiry, paraphrasing, and advocacy.

And inquiry and paraphrasing are
listening skills, both to understand

what the other person experienced and
confirm with them that my understanding

was correct of their experience.

And the advocacy skill is
the talking one, right?

That's essentially a
two-thirds, one-third ratio.

And I don't mean it as an exact
science, but I did have a student

say to me one time, "Oh, so that's
why my parents said you have two

ears and one mouth" for a reason.

A lot more listening and
confirming that I understood you

correctly from your perspective
before I dive into sharing mine.

I like your definition of listening
as seeking shared understanding.

And when you take that approach, it
definitely puts you in a place of

being present, of being humble, because
you're checking, maybe I didn't get it

right, and leveraging what I think is
one of the most powerful communication

skills, which is paraphrasing,
because it does so much for us.

I really appreciate that approach.

I wanna give you a tricky communication
situation that people ask me to help with.

How do you give your boss or
someone higher up in the hierarchy

critical constructive feedback?

So they clearly have the power and
status, but there's something that

they're doing that bothers you.

Maybe it's offensive, maybe
they're ignoring something.

That's a tricky, difficult conversation.

How would you advise, or if I
were a student asking you this

question, what would you say?

Yeah, so power dynamics
definitely can make difficult

conversations more difficult.

So hopefully, we've prepared in a
way that sets us up for success.

So what do I mean by that?

Hopefully, we've actually decided in
advance with our manager, boss, you know,

the higher up colleague, that we are
gonna have two-way feedback with each

other for the purpose of achieving our
team goals and growing as professionals.

And since it's been contextualized
as a gift that we're giving each

other for our professional growth,
hopefully, we're ready to share

and they're ready to receive.

Even if we haven't had a chance to do
that prep, though, there's still the

opportunity to extend that invitation,
as you've said, and to connect

this conversation to a shared goal.

So great communicators know to
tailor to their audiences, right?

If it's my boss, what can I imagine
safely that they care about?

The success of our team and the
accomplishment of our goals.

So if I can tie this dialogue to
those shared goals, it is more

likely that they will accept my
invitation, and particularly if I

ask them if now is a good time or
when would be a better time, right?

So I've tailored it to my audience's
motivations, what my boss cares about,

and also to their schedule, when they're
in the right place to receive it.

That's the emotional intelligence part.

Once I've gotten the green light to go on
ahead and share, then I wanna go back to

growing that shared pool of understanding.

So on the advocacy side, on the
part where I'm speaking for myself

with clarity and confidence, I
wanna make it clear that there's an

observable piece of what I'm sharing.

I observed a certain behavior from them.

I'm not speaking about their
character, it's just an action

that happened at one point in time.

And I saw it, I heard
it, and I'm sharing that.

And then here's the invisible
piece of information, the

impact that it had on me, right?

And so once I've shared the observable
information and the impact that it

had on me, I've now given you my
perspective, and maybe I add some more

meaning that I've made from it, the
conclusions that I draw about the impact

it'll have or what led to that, the
conditions that created that situation.

But nonetheless, I recognize that
it's my perspective, and I say that.

I say, "But that's only one perspective.
I'm really curious about yours." And

that's when I ask a question about
how they experienced that situation.

What's similar?

What's different?

What am I missing?

And now that I've grown the shared
pool of understanding around both of

our perspectives, now I can invite
us to co-create some solutions that

could address the gap in how this
impacted us and where we really wanna

get ultimately, which is our goals.

And at that point, you've shifted from you
versus me to us versus the problem, right?

Now we're partners in creating a
solution that addresses the gap or the

difference between where we are and
where we wanna be to hit our goals.

Taking the time to really understand
what's important and relevant, to the

manager or the person in power, so
that you can tailor your message to be

connected to it, I think is so important.

We often fixate so much on
what we want, we don't think

about the broader perspective.

And I love how you incorporated the
invitation idea in there as well.

And questions, I think, are a powerful
way to do this, by asking questions

rather than making declarations.

One other thing I recommend, and I'd
love to get your take on this, in

situations where I have to share something
difficult, often I have found personally,

and those I coach have found value in
this, reinforcing positive outcomes.

So if, let's say, I have a manager
who tends to interrupt people when

they're speaking, rewarding a time
when they didn't interrupt as a way

of, one, encouraging them to continue
that or opening the door, "Hey, it was

really helpful when Jenn got through
everything she was trying to say.

She brought up some really
important points there.

I appreciate you allowing for that
space," is a way of saying, "Hey,

stop interrupting," without saying it.

So I'm curious if that's an
approach you've advised or taken.

Yes.

So progress and positive impact are some
of the biggest motivators for anyone,

especially us professionals, right?

So if you can tell me the positive
behaviors and the positive impact,

it's absolutely gonna motivate me.

And I would use that after I've had
a constructive feedback session.

So when I see the person go implement some
of the ideas we co-created, I immediately

follow up and say, "Oh, wow, we had just
spoken about that yesterday, and you

implemented that right away, and I saw
that it really lifted the team's morale,"

or whatever the positive impact is.

"Thank you so much. It had a tremendous
impact." You know, something that

reaffirms all of that effort and
time that we put into understanding

each other's perspectives and making
the situation better has paid off.

I will say there's something else
you're making me think about, Matt.

You are contrasting, right?

You're contrasting the desired
behavior from the undesirable behavior,

and that reminds me that there's
a contrasting technique that I'll

often recommend to folks who have
a hard time saying the hard things.

And that is contrast what your intention
is not versus what your intention is.

Because intentions are invisible, right?

So we've gotta state it.

So you might say to a boss, "Normally,
I've got such praise and great things to

say that I have to admit I'm a bit nervous
to share this constructive feedback, but

my intention is not to be disrespectful
or forget all of the amazing things

that you've already done for our team.
Instead, my intention is out of such

respect for who you are as a professional
and the leader I know you to be, to share

this one piece of information that I
think might take us to the next level."

Highlighting intention, I
think, is incredibly important.

We make assumptions, and calling that
out and sharing what this is not is as

important as what this conversation is.

Many people listening know that at one
point I was a tour guide in college,

and one of the things that was impressed
upon us is it's important to tell

your audience where you're going so
their expectations are set, but also

let them know where you're not going.

And the same is true in a conversation.

I'd like to turn our conversation
to a different topic.

I know you are likely getting similar
questions to me with artificial

intelligence, AI, coming into things.

How do you envision that AI could
actually help us with some of these

tricky communication situations?

Yes.

I have seen several of my students
find some really great uses for AI.

So I'll give some examples.

Sometimes I have a student who
wants to work on their tone.

They've received feedback that their
tone is getting in the way of their

message being received, and so they'll
type in what they want to say and say,

"Make that tone more friendly," or,
"Make that tone more respectful," and

get a sense for what some other language,
some other word choice might be to

help them still deliver an authentic
message, but in a way that can be heard.

So that's one interesting way.

I think another is coming
up with perspectives that I

haven't considered, right?

Here's the problem I'm dealing with.

What other perspectives could
there be, or here's my take.

And then recently, I had a student really
enjoy the role plays that we did in class,

but not have someone back in her apartment
to role play with, and she actually

asked ChatGPT to role play with her, uh,
which I thought was such a cool idea.

And I just think at the end of the
day, we have to keep in mind that this

is one perspective based on whatever
data this particular LLM has been

trained on and not take it as the
final word, but just more options.

Practice for these situations can be so
important, as with any communication,

and using a tool to do that.

And I really like this idea of
having a tool help you see what

other wording can affect tone
in a way that you might not see.

I like that a lot.

As someone who used to run corporate
education programs, I, I was a learning

and development head for a long time, and
I know you did something very similar.

I'm curious to learn about your
experiences running the learning

organization for the Obama Foundation.

What communication practices did you
use in crafting and delivering the

programs and messages that you did?

Yeah.

The Obamas are amazing, not only leaders,
but storytellers, and they believe

deeply in values-based leadership
and values-based storytelling.

So while I already knew as a communicator
that connection was important, I hadn't

understood prior to my time at the
Obama Foundation how values and the

origins of our values, the stories
about where our values come from, can

really help us connect with others,
especially across lines of difference.

And so it's not to say that we have to
have the same values, but instead, when

I tell a story about the grandparent who
role modeled responsibility, and when

someone else tells a story about the
parent who role modeled hard work, even

though our particular lived experiences
could be really different, and we were

connecting with leaders, not only all
across the United States, all across the

political aisle, but around the globe.

So our lived experiences were
really different in any given room.

The human part of where our values
came from and to whom we were trying

to uphold the good things that they'd
taught us and shown us enabled such

tremendous connection and understanding
despite the huge differences or the

seeming differences in the room.

So I learned a lot about not only
storytelling, which we know the

importance of, but values-based
storytelling in enabling connection.

And I think the other piece is the
power of role modeling vulnerability.

So as we designed these training programs,
I reached a point where I said, "You

know, I've asked these community leaders
to share so much about themselves. Who

am I to ask you to share and not share
myself?" And so I started to go first.

And once I did that and role
modeled a deep commitment to bravely

sharing and being vulnerable, it
really enabled deeper vulnerability

and ultimately deeper connection.

So I've learned a lot from my time at
the foundation, really grateful for it.

So values and vulnerability
and the power of storytelling.

Really, I think we all need to think
about where our values come from and

what our stories around those values are.

And sharing those can
certainly be connective.

I want to step out and make an observation
that by you being willing to go first and

express your vulnerability, one, takes
a lot of courage, and I appreciate that.

But I also think what you're doing,
and a message for many leaders, is

that you are, in that role modeling,
you are anchoring expectations and

helping people see what's possible.

And a lot of times, leaders either
don't want to be vulnerable or don't

want to go first, and yet it can serve
a really powerful purpose to do that.

And I appreciate you sharing that.

That type of anchoring can really
invite and make it safer for others

because they see it's possible.

So thank you.

Like me, you host a podcast,
one that I've enjoy very much.

I'm curious to learn how you balance
your inquiry to challenge your guests

without turning your interviews
into challenging conversations.

In other words, how do you put your
audience at ease enough to have the deep,

meaningful conversations that you have?

So on the H.I. Note podcast, we're
talking about how people healed

from some really tough stuff.

You know, childhood trauma, loss
of loved ones, disease, goodness,

toxic relationships, you name it.

And so before I ask them to share about
some of the toughest moments in their

lives, I start by surprising them with
three things that I love about them.

And so this is not in the agenda
that I send them ahead of time,

but when we sit down to chat, I
let them know three elements of who

they are that I absolutely love.

And it's amazing to see how not only
pleasantly surprised they are, which

is just a nice moment of pure joy and
connection, but also to see how once

they feel seen as a whole person and in
a strengths-based and affirming way, they

become more generous in what they share.

And the conversations go deeper, and
I learn such amazing insights because

they've really let down any walls or any
pretense and just shared from the heart.

And it's been a beautiful gift to see
how powerful asset-based framing is, and

I've brought that over into my classes.

So for difficult conversations and for
the other courses I teach, in the very

beginning, in the first session, I'll
ask folks to gather up in trios and do

an exercise that I call At Your Best.

And so they'll share in trios times they
were at their best during a difficult

conversation, and then the feedback that
they give one another is strengths-based.

So, "This action that you took had
a tremendously positive impact.

Do that again," or, "Wow, I'm really
impressed how you shifted your mindset

right there in the middle of being
triggered, and now I'm gonna go do that

as well." And students say that they not
only feel seen after that exercise, but

that the classroom environment is more
psychologically safe and enables them to

be more brave in the rest of the course.

I love that as an opening activity.

I'm going to borrow it, if you don't
mind, to have people think about,

in my course, a time where they were
able to communicate strategically in

a way that was successful, and then
to get that positive affirmation.

I really like this idea of
leading with connection.

You sharing the three things that you
really appreciate about the person is

a way of connecting and saying, "I see
you, I know you, and I respect you," and

that opens up the door to perhaps more
challenging or, or deeper conversations.

Thank you for that.

Well, as you know, as someone
who listens to the podcast, I end

every episode with three questions.

One, I make up just for you,
and two, I ask everybody.

Are you ready for that?

I think so.

Yes.

You're gonna do great.

I'm going to ask you the unfair
question that I always get asked 'cause

I'll be curious about your answer.

So people will often ask me,
"What's the one thing I can do

to improve my communication?"
As if there is one magic key.

But I'm asking you this question because
I hope it gives you an opportunity to

talk about something that we haven't
talked about, because we've talked

about a lot of really deep, meaningful
communication bits of advice: know your

audience, know yourself, paraphrase.

Is there something that we haven't
covered that you think is important?

Practice.

At the end of the day, the
goal is not perfection.

It doesn't exist.

The goal is continual improvement.

I want to keep getting better and better.

And so the way to do that, of course, like
any muscle building activity, is practice.

And so I really do not only create a
lot of practice opportunities for my

students in class, but I give them
ideas of how they might continue

practicing after the class is over.

And my suggestion is to make it a
little more challenging each time.

So start with the low
stakes day-to-day stuff.

When you're chatting with your
roommate, ask a few more questions

than you might have otherwise asked
so that you build that inquiry muscle.

But then when you have a disagreement
with a colleague, if you think this

might actually make a difference if I
shared this one perspective, try out

stating your intention, sharing your
perspective, and then asking for a greater

understanding on their perspective.

And as we continue to have more and
more repetition, right, as we build

in the reps, we're not only going to
build the muscle, which feels good,

but then it's going to be ready for
us to flex when the moment counts.

When we're in the most consequential
conversation, we will have already

built up those great question-asking
muscles, those great paraphrasing

muscles, those great intention-stating
muscles, and so on and so forth.

So practice, practice, practice
and make it a little more

challenging each time along the way.

And I think that's absolutely dead on.

We have to practice.

I'll be curious to hear your answer.

Who's a communicator you admire and why?

Michelle Obama.

Her authenticity is palpable.

When she is sharing, it's not only
real and true for her and others in

the room, it's the heart of the matter.

She's not being authentic
about things on the fringe.

She's getting to that piece that lands
in the pit of my stomach that I may

not have had the courage to share.

And she's, has so many great quotes, one
of which is, "Courage is contagious."

And I feel that in her presence or
when I'm watching a speech of hers.

And then, of course,
her ability to connect.

She's fantastic at connection through
relatable storytelling and humor, and I've

seen that in her most casual and impromptu
moments and in her prepared speeches.

It's just a part of who she is.

Courage is contagious.

Really, uh, profound, actually.

And connection and the ability to connect.

Storytelling is a key tool for that.

All right.

What are the first three ingredients that
go into a successful communication recipe?

Audience, intent or goal, and listening.

Uh, we've already spoken about the
importance of knowing where the

other person is at and how to meet
them where they are at, right?

Emotionally, during that time in,
of day or in their schedule, what

matters most to them, understanding
how to create a shared goal, right,

which goes into the second piece.

And then the last piece, you might
have thought it'd be something

around know what your message is,
or be clear on what your message is.

But the reason I think it's listening
is because if I'm really growing

the shared pool of understanding, if
I'm really hearing your perspective

and understanding it to a level that
I didn't understand before, I may

actually have a new idea, right?

I've heard the quote, "Dialogue is the
birthplace of synergy." Your information

and the way you made meaning of that
information might create not just a

new perspective within me, but a new
meaning-making, a new understanding

of what matters most, and therefore,
what I most wanna drive home.

So audience, intent or
goal, and listening.

So audience and intent and listening.

Jenn, this has been a
fantastic conversation.

You have equipped me, and hopefully
our listeners, with many tools they can

use, and you have certainly increased
our shared understanding and meaning.

Thank you for joining us,
and thank you for your time.

Thank you for having me.

This was fun.

Thank you for joining us for this
extended Rethinks episode of Think

Fast, Talk Smart, The Podcast.

Among the many ideas Jenn shared, the one
that stands out to me is that difficult

conversations often become difficult
because of what's happening inside us,

not just what's needing to be said.

By recognizing when we're emotionally
triggered and taking a moment

to pause, we can respond more
thoughtfully rather than simply react.

Sometimes that pause can
make all the difference.

This episode was produced by
Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, Alex

McCarthy, and me, Matt Abrahams.

Our music is from Floyd Wonder.

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