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Stories of veteran service and sacrifice straight from the people driving today’s most important veterans causes and veterans organizations around the world. The show shines a spotlight on their inspiring projects making a real difference for veterans and their families, and along the way we'll hear the stories that drive them to do their best every day as they work to support veterans and their memory.
00:00:06:01 - 00:00:27:12
Speaker 1
Hey, it's Matthew Cudmore and welcome to Story Behind the Stone. In today's episode, we're joined by Doctor James Bulgin PhD. He's the head of public history at the Imperial War Museums in the UK. With over 2 million visitors every year, we'll explore how the museums tell the complex stories of modern war and why telling individual stories is central to their galleries and public history.
00:00:27:14 - 00:00:34:09
Speaker 1
James, thanks for joining the show and for the care and humanity that you bring to this important work. And to our listeners, thanks for tuning in.
00:00:40:10 - 00:01:00:13
Speaker 1
Hello and welcome to Story by Anna Stone. A story talk, service, sacrifice and story connecting you with the people, changing the way the world remembers. I'm so pleased to be joined today by Doctor James Bulgin PhD, with the Imperial War Museum. He's the head of public history and the former head of content for the Holocaust Gallery at the Imperial War Museums.
00:01:00:14 - 00:01:02:13
Speaker 1
James's wonderful to welcome you to the show today.
00:01:02:18 - 00:01:04:08
Speaker 2
Thank you so much for having me. It's great to be here.
00:01:04:10 - 00:01:13:08
Speaker 1
There's so much ground to cover today with the broad remit that the Imperial War Museum has. If you could just give us a 30,000ft, you tell us about the Imperial War Museum.
00:01:13:10 - 00:01:32:03
Speaker 2
So the museum came to be by its parliament in 1917. In the UK, its founding was a direct product of the battle of the Somme in the First World War, in its aftermath. And there was this sense that it was such a seismic moment in the country's history that there needed to be some sort of formal organization to kind of respond to it.
00:01:32:05 - 00:01:51:01
Speaker 2
And so this conversation evolved, and the museum was established by Parliament in 1917, and its remit was going to be to cover the First World War. Initially, it was anticipated as being the National War Museum, and then conversations evolved at the time from people around the table saying, well, hang on a second, this was a war of empire and it's right to acknowledge the contribution of people across the Empire in pursuit of the war.
00:01:51:05 - 00:02:10:07
Speaker 2
And so that's why it became the Imperial War Museum at the time of the outset. And the ambition was always that it should cover the experiences of people across society. It was never a museum that was just about kind of military endeavor or even a military museum tool. It was about the way that the people across society and across the world had it become a part of this thing.
00:02:10:07 - 00:02:34:01
Speaker 2
So that was what it was established to do. And opened to the Crystal Palace in south London in 1920. And then when it moved in the 1930s, and then when the Second World War broke out in 1939, its remit was expanded to cover that, and after the Second World War it was free, but was expanded to cover any conflicts that involved Britain or countries of what then was the Commonwealth, because obviously the Empire had ceased to exist by the late 1940s.
00:02:34:01 - 00:02:48:19
Speaker 2
So that's what it continues to do today. The remit continues to be to cover conflicts from the First World War to the present day that involve Britain or countries of the Commonwealth, and obviously we're actively in pursuit of that. But sometimes people wonder why we're not doing things before the First World War, and that's the answer.
00:02:48:20 - 00:02:56:11
Speaker 1
James, tell us a little bit about the numbers. There's five sites. Tell us about the foot traffic that you're getting as well for those different sites.
00:02:56:11 - 00:03:14:13
Speaker 2
The museum was initially founded in, in, you know, London. And as I say, move the Crystal Palace to, to the building that we're in now, which was formerly the Bethlehem's hospital. It grew. So now we have the London site, we have the cabinet or the Churchill Rooms, I should say, in central London. We also have the HMS Belfast, which is moored up on the Thames in Cambridgeshire.
00:03:14:13 - 00:03:37:18
Speaker 2
We have Duxford, which is still operational airfields. And then in Manchester we have IWM North in Media City. So five sites, all of which have kind of different ambitions and roles. And across those sites we have obviously it varies year and year and Covid is put a dent in the numbers whilst it's happening. It's significant that we're over 2 million visitors a year across the site, so it's a relatively substantial number of people.
00:03:37:20 - 00:03:45:17
Speaker 2
And of course we have visitors from across the world and that's fantastic. And that's something that's really important to us, that we are a site that people come to when they come to this country.
00:03:45:18 - 00:03:55:17
Speaker 1
You're used to, I'm sure, touring people around virtually and in person. When someone's come in from out of town, what's the first place that you take them to or the first object that you take them to?
00:03:55:17 - 00:04:10:23
Speaker 2
I suppose 1 or 2 that always springs to mind for me is Tamsin, which is about this on display in the Second World War galleries. It's the smallest of the little house on Dunkirk. So it was this tiny little vessel and it was donated to the museum. And it's been there ever since. And it's been on display virtually ever since.
00:04:10:23 - 00:04:25:14
Speaker 2
So that's an incredible piece of a physical trace of this really significant moment of the war. And it's one of those objects you stand next to anything. How is it possible that this thing, this tiny little thing was at the center of this enormous historic event? And here I am next to it now as.
00:04:25:14 - 00:04:28:22
Speaker 1
The head of public history, what's the primary problem that you're trying to solve?
00:04:28:23 - 00:04:53:20
Speaker 2
I suppose the issue with history is it particularly these days, in some respects, I sometimes wonder if we're in a bit of a competition for kind of historical veracity and accuracy and kind of the rhetorical representations of history that appear in other places and memories as well. A lot of our visitors enter the sites now, and their knowledge would have been substantively gleaned from films and TV programs and that sort of thing.
00:04:53:20 - 00:05:08:18
Speaker 2
There's nothing inherently wrong with that. But obviously what we're then trying to do is to say, actually, that was a version of things without notes that doesn't necessarily cover the whole picture. And so I suppose that's a big part of what we're trying to do. And also within that, there are lots of different ways of thinking about history.
00:05:08:18 - 00:05:29:00
Speaker 2
And I think as research continues and more things are revealed and the way that we think about things change, there is so much more to say. And that's a really important part of what we're trying to do is to take things that are familiar and to say, but actually there is a much bigger picture that that fits into, and that's complicated and it's challenging to deal with that complexity.
00:05:29:02 - 00:05:47:15
Speaker 2
And so I suppose that is our biggest issue. And then within that, there's a whole kind of raft of other issues. Obviously, maintaining the collection is a huge ongoing challenge for my colleagues in those teams. It's it's a huge collection that needs to be looked after. Trying to keep an eye on what else we should be collecting to try and deal with people who want to donate things to us as well.
00:05:47:15 - 00:06:12:21
Speaker 2
This. That's a very kind of ongoing active process. There's lots of things that we're trying to do, but for us, at the core of what we're trying to do is to ensure that visitors to us, whether that's physically coming onto the site or coming onto our digital presence on our YouTube channels or on our website, etc., that they have an opportunity to develop their understanding of the way the 20th century conflict and happiness, 21st century conflict shaped who we are and ultimately, you know where we're going.
00:06:12:22 - 00:06:28:15
Speaker 1
I visited the Bedlam site of the Imperial War Museum about six weeks ago, entering the main atrium there, I was just struck by the physical objects on display. Tell us a little bit about what you're trying to accomplish at the museum with literally hanging rockets from the ceiling. I guess those.
00:06:28:15 - 00:06:49:22
Speaker 2
Objects there are intended to kind of cover the breadth of the remit as a kind of an opening vista, you know, there's an eerie coming from the First World War. There's a V-2 rocket, as you say, from the Second World War, the Spitfire from the Second World War. And then there's objects that bring us, right. There's a Harrier jump jet suspended from the ceiling, and then various different things from various different conflicts.
00:06:49:22 - 00:07:10:09
Speaker 2
There's a cause it's not actually technically a work of art, Jeremy Delic, but that car, which is a car which was caught in a car bombing in Baghdad. And so that's this kind of tortured, crushed metal entity. And and that's, you know, really strong and important objects. And then we've got I mean, it's kind of viral enough opening this to things like, you know, a section of one of the Twin Towers.
00:07:10:09 - 00:07:25:10
Speaker 2
So, you know, I'm trying to make this point. The conflict takes many different forms, and those who participate in it have many different identities as well. And so to establish that at the start is to kind of lay out our pitch for what we trying to do and why we think it's important.
00:07:25:12 - 00:07:30:16
Speaker 1
I want to turn the lens of it's okay. What are you inspired to work at? The idea of me, I'm in the first place.
00:07:30:18 - 00:07:52:10
Speaker 2
My undergraduate degrees in English, and I went to drama school and trains and actor and one's work. Since when did work in theater? For about 10 or 15 years. I always had an interest in history. My father was really kind of interested in Second World War history, and so was I. And that was really kind of reinforced, funny enough, by seeing a film called Memphis Bell back in the 1990s, which is why I think that films do have a really important role to play in the way that we kind of combat history somehow.
00:07:52:10 - 00:08:09:05
Speaker 2
But anyway, so I had this interest in the background, and then whilst I was working in theater, I was invited to go and see a new musical which was set in the Warsaw Ghetto during the Second World War. That led to me going back to university, not necessarily because I liked the show, that I wasn't enormously fond of it, but it kind of got me really interested in this whole question about how we deal with history.
00:08:09:05 - 00:08:25:22
Speaker 2
Representation early and particularly history is kind of vexing and complex and challenging as the as the Holocaust. And so I ended up doing a master's in, in the Holocaust, which meant where else was invited to come back and do a PhD? And whilst I was doing that, I saw an opening at the museum for that stage. I was in my mid-thirties and had never worked in a museum.
00:08:25:22 - 00:08:44:16
Speaker 2
I've never actually been employed. I'd always been self-employed, and I thought it kind of felt like it was an opportunity that was worth pursuing. So I was originally working in the publishing department briefly, and then this role came up to lead the creation of new Holocaust galleries. And I applied for that and got it. And that was just one of those huge life changing moments, you know, that just tipped me off on this completely different path.
00:08:44:16 - 00:09:00:04
Speaker 2
I completed the PhD whilst I was doing that, and then the galleries opened, and now I kind of find myself as this person is dealing with all these histories, and I feel very fortunate to be able to do so. But as you said to me in my early 1920s and certainly as a teenager, this is what I would end up doing, I wouldn't have believed you.
00:09:00:05 - 00:09:03:08
Speaker 1
What would your teenage self say about what you're doing right now?
00:09:03:08 - 00:09:22:16
Speaker 2
I think my teenage self would be really pleased. I think they would be slightly incredulous because it's like anything in life, you know, sometimes the responsibility seems overwhelming and it's never lost on me. What a privilege is genuinely isn't. And I can say the same for everyone at the museum. It's never lost on any of us, all the privileges to do what we do, but also we take it incredibly seriously and we're very mindful of the responsibility.
00:09:22:16 - 00:09:40:13
Speaker 2
And my teenage self was kind of think on some level, well, you turned into a proper grown up and it it does feel like that way I do I, you know, particularly as somebody who's had quite extensive dealings with the history of the Holocaust and the places where I happened and some of the people related, some of those who survived and the relatives of those who survived, the weight of that is significant.
00:09:40:13 - 00:09:51:10
Speaker 2
And I suppose my teenage itself would think, well, you've obviously changed quite a lot to to get to a stage where that's something that you were able to do. But I think I'd have been really pleased to know that this is how it turned out in the end.
00:09:51:14 - 00:09:57:23
Speaker 1
Tell us a little bit about the Holocaust galleries, and have you walked anyone through that has a link to the Holocaust?
00:09:57:23 - 00:10:22:10
Speaker 2
The galleries themselves, with the products of a roundabout, six year project. And they were very much concerned with trying to represent the vast growth in research around the study, the Holocaust, and also to do something to respond to the paucity of public understanding, which, you know, various different research projects had kind of evidence. So we were trying to find a way to present the subjects differently in the hope that visitors would be given cause.
00:10:22:10 - 00:10:41:21
Speaker 2
To think of it differently, the center of it was very much this ambition to present is a history that was done by people, to people to move away from the idea that it was all about a kind of a faceless, bureaucratic, industrialized machine. And to say, actually, this was very much about individual human endeavor. And moreover, the people that effected weren't a kind of an anonymous mass.
00:10:41:21 - 00:11:01:21
Speaker 2
They were all individuals. And that was, you know, really critical. And the most obvious elucidation of that, I suppose, from the get go is that the galleries are light wood, relatively light. They're not dark spaces. We wanted to say very clearly there was no inevitability about any of this. All of this is the product of individual human action and that kind of informed every single thing we did.
00:11:01:21 - 00:11:21:01
Speaker 2
We were very fortunate that whilst we were working on the galleries, there were a number of survivors who still with us, who were able to come in and talk to us in these three things, and it was a particularly affecting thing, actually, to then walk around with those people. He would kind of been on this journey with and and to show them and obviously they'd seen the renders because they've been closely associated with some of them.
00:11:21:01 - 00:11:41:04
Speaker 2
But to kind of stand in the space with them was a really important thing. Very sadly, a number of those people have since passed away. And, you know, that is a reality of the history of the Holocaust and the history of the Second World War, that those who lived it, who you know, were able to survive, that are few in numbers and that number is tragically diminishing virtually by the day.
00:11:41:04 - 00:12:01:05
Speaker 2
So I feel very fortunate to have had that opportunity, and it really struck me. After the galleries opened recently, one of the survivors that we dealt with passed away, and I got a message from his son saying, you know, would you like to attend the funeral? And we did. It was during Covid. It was online. But during his eulogy, he spoke about his mother's objects on display in the galleries and how much that meant to her.
00:12:01:05 - 00:12:18:05
Speaker 2
And I just thought, God, that's a really humbling thing to hear because that woman had a very long and full life, you know, just a really lovely human being. But the fact that for all of the things that she'd achieved that was significant enough for her, that it warranted being mentioned in her eulogy was was something that really sat with me.
00:12:18:05 - 00:12:44:12
Speaker 2
And then a few months later, but it's not a funeral and it's certainly another one of the subjects we dealt with passed away. And in that instance, the family asked if I would read something at the funeral. And I thought, this is a very humbling thing to find oneself doing to to set out to do this gallery that takes on this history, and then suddenly to find that your own personal identity is kind of intersected with these lives in such a way that it's worthy of being part of the most significant moments.
00:12:44:12 - 00:12:55:16
Speaker 2
And so it's kind of extraordinary and, you know, obviously really value these ongoing relationships that we've had and not not just with the survivors, but also with the children, sometimes grandchildren too.
00:12:55:22 - 00:13:14:17
Speaker 1
There's so many events that the idea of them covers, and some of them are kind of passing out of our lives. History in the sense that people are passing away. How are you approaching the challenge of memorializing or telling the story of war and events that still feel current for people, but for some that haven't lived it? How do you make it relevant to them?
00:13:14:17 - 00:13:17:06
Speaker 1
Like you said, they may not know what the Holocaust even was.
00:13:17:06 - 00:13:39:16
Speaker 2
That is the kind of biggest challenge, I suppose, particularly for generations that are entirely removed. It can feel quite onerous, but actually I think in my experience, obviously we do an enormous amount of outreach. We have a lot of digital programing. We've got a YouTube channel that is done incredibly, was fantastic team at the museum. We work on that, and that's all concerned with getting the history and the collection and the objects in front of as many people as possible.
00:13:39:16 - 00:13:58:22
Speaker 2
And obviously that can stretch your boundaries. And when we've we've had, you know, incredible numbers of views and some of these videos so that on a really practical level, that's part strategy learning programs in museums. We bring a lot of people through the doors. A Holocaust learning program is enormously popular amongst schools, institutions and people coming through. So all of those things really hope.
00:13:58:22 - 00:14:15:18
Speaker 2
And I have to say that I think in my experience of speaking to young people, I obviously it's anecdotal and I wouldn't claim for a second that this representative of everything, but my experience of them is that actually they're really interested and they're really engaged and they really want to learn more. And so it's just a question of, you know, doing that.
00:14:15:22 - 00:14:36:16
Speaker 2
And we're always looking at different ways of doing that. For example, for V-J day this year, we worked with a group of fantastic young filmmakers who had just graduated from training, and they were just setting out into the world, as you know, aspiring editors and animators and directors and composers. And we sat down with them and we gave them all of the museum's collections related.
00:14:36:16 - 00:14:49:12
Speaker 2
So as many as we could make available to them digitally so that they could use it related to the subjects of the war in Asia, in the Pacific, and said that we want to do a two minute piece here using all of these things, and we're going to work with you to do that. But it was really important that they had creative freedom to do that.
00:14:49:12 - 00:15:09:02
Speaker 2
And then it was screened at various different screens across the country on V-J day, and it was available across various different platforms and that sort of thing really, really strong. But I was so encouraged by them. They were all this amazing group of people in their early 20s and they kind of on their own. And this year when they started, they said, I don't really know anything about this, but I really want to know something about it.
00:15:09:02 - 00:15:24:23
Speaker 2
I think that's the thing. I think there are strategies you can use, but I think sometimes there can be a slight danger of kind of underestimating these generations who are coming through and kind of underestimating the interest that they have. It's just a question of how you sort of frame content. And and again, on a really practical level, the other thing about that for us is digitization.
00:15:24:23 - 00:15:39:21
Speaker 2
So obviously, I'm speaking to you across an enormous stretch of water now, and it's really important to us that that you, as a visitor who's not in the UK, can encounter the collections as much as you can. So, again, in a practical level, that means digitizing as much as we possibly can. And that is a hugely involved endeavor.
00:15:39:21 - 00:16:03:21
Speaker 2
You know, we're just looking now at how we digitize in anticipation of the Civil War centenary. So even though that's still some, you know, 15 years over the horizon, it's going to take that long to get as much as we can, because the museum's collections are vast and the resources required to get them to the standard that it needs to be digitized, it's getting on the website and collecting some money is a monumental endeavor, but we're on the case with that.
00:16:03:21 - 00:16:06:00
Speaker 2
I suppose that's another way that we can help to do that.
00:16:06:00 - 00:16:17:11
Speaker 1
For those that are busy by the stories that the IWM holds and tells and the incredible digitization efforts that are coming, what's the most meaningful way that they can get involved, get engaged and support your work?
00:16:17:12 - 00:16:35:19
Speaker 2
A website would always be I would recommend is the first port of call iwm.org.uk. Obviously it's easily findable on on any search engines and that is a useful portal for all the stuff we do. But I would also say, YouTube channel, we exist across most social media but but our YouTube channel, the team there have done an incredible job.
00:16:35:19 - 00:16:52:09
Speaker 2
I've done a few of those films with them, and they work with curators and historians across the organization to route the history and the collections. But they're there. They're accessible at the end of a click of a button and get on there and have a look through those. They're uploading stuff all the time and it's a circle socials as well.
00:16:52:09 - 00:17:10:00
Speaker 2
And if you do come to the UK, you could do. If you're a visitor to London, the main museum down in Lambeth, and the War Room and the War Institute Awards, and the Belfast are all kind of walkable if you're feeling up for it, but it's within a contained space, and it's a fantastic way to encounter this history firsthand.
00:17:10:00 - 00:17:12:22
Speaker 2
And obviously I'm biased, but I would strongly recommend it for you.
00:17:12:22 - 00:17:16:09
Speaker 1
Specifically, what's the best place for folks to follow your work?
00:17:16:09 - 00:17:35:16
Speaker 2
So I am on Instagram. Dr James Bulgin historian. What's my handle on Instagram? So please do if you are interested. I'm always trying to up my game on Instagram and get more stuff out there. I've got a few media projects coming up this year for different TV pieces and a couple of films I've been involved with, so I'll try and keep that updated, but that's the best.
00:17:35:16 - 00:17:36:08
Speaker 2
First port of call.
00:17:36:10 - 00:17:43:06
Speaker 1
Doctor James Bulgin, head of public history with the Imperial War Museum. It's been such a pleasure chatting with you today. Thank you for joining the show.
00:17:43:07 - 00:17:44:07
Speaker 2
Thank you so much.
00:17:50:08 - 00:18:03:09
Speaker 1
Thanks so much for tuning in. Story. Behind the Stone is available on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on the Rise Across America Radio Network on iHeartRadio. Audacity and tune in to search for wreath.
00:18:03:09 - 00:18:04:14
Speaker 1
Thank you for tuning in.