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Diagnosed with Complex Trauma and a Dissociative Disorder, Emma and her system share what they learn along the way about complex trauma, dissociation (CPTSD, OSDD, DID, Dissociative Identity Disorder (Multiple Personality), etc.), and mental health. Educational, supportive, inclusive, and inspiring, System Speak documents her healing journey through the best and worst of life in recovery through insights, conversations, and collaborations.
Over: Welcome to the System Speak Podcast, a podcast about Dissociative Identity Disorder. If you are new to the podcast, we recommend starting at the beginning episodes and listen in order to hear our story and what we have learned through this endeavor. Current episodes may be more applicable to long time listeners and are likely to contain more advanced topics, emotional or other triggering content, and or reference earlier episodes that provide more context to what we are currently learning and experiencing. As always, please care for yourself during and after listening to the podcast. Thank you.
Speaker 2:So after the recent episodes with the stronghold system, Sarah Clark, and her article about the structural dissociation theory being ableist and then the follow-up episode that was about sort of the clinical response to her questions and the questions that I had trying to process article that she wrote. Doctor. Behrs was super helpful and gave us lots of information. But then after both episodes aired and he heard the stronghold system interview, he also had one more point that was really important I wanted to share. He says, It sounds like there's some incorrect ideas about what is generally recommended these days as treatment for DID.
Speaker 2:I think if you take a look at the ISSTD treatment guidelines, you won't find what she says to be there. The term integration refers to better integrated functioning, not to fusion of all the alters into one. In fact, Cloughed argues that fusion leads the most stable outcome of treatment. That's his opinion, but the only data on that point comes from a series of people he treated himself. Fusion doesn't always happen, and it's clear that some people with DID don't want it.
Speaker 2:And then he also shares, she's quoting one study that twelve point eight percent of the people with DID reached integration fusion. This is one of Bethany Brand's studies, and she's one of the ones we talked to and the interview was lost because of technology drama. Ugh, so frustrating because it was so good. It was so, so good. Clark didn't mention that an additional twelve point eight percent ended treatment successfully without fusion of self states.
Speaker 2:She also didn't mention that there were other big improvements in the treatment group, such as reduced hospitalizations, reduced suicide attempts, and improved global assessment of functioning scores. All of that's good. You guys we need to stay out of the hospital and we need to stay healthy and well and alive. Please let's help each other stay alive. So this is a good point.
Speaker 2:Doctor. Barish is saying that Sarah Clark mentioned that that there was a twelve percent success rate of integration, but Doctor. Barish is pointing out that the same study also reported a twelve percent success rate for those who did not choose integration, as well as other ways to measure success, like staying out of the hospital and functioning better in areas like in work and relationships. He goes on to say, There's nothing in the treatment guidelines saying that people with DID shouldn't hang out together or support each other, but there are warnings about self help groups possibly leading to flooding and emotional distress, as well as other ways of acting out with each other. These things do happen, and I've met some people who have had bad experiences in these groups.
Speaker 2:We too have had bad experiences in the groups actually and are not on them. Like, we're still in them, but we don't even check that account hardly ever anymore because it's been so awful, the things that have happened with those groups. And so you have to be really careful. If you're going in for information and you can go in and learn and sort of get out, or if you can go in and see who's safe and make friends and then leave it alone, or if you can go in and handle all of those things, that's great. And there are some groups that try really hard to keep it safe.
Speaker 2:I mean, that's why they're there. But so much stuff happens off list and so much drama happens with people from the groups even if it doesn't happen in the group and even we try to make those friends and then lost them like it's just too much we're done we can't do it So I agree with him there. People act out what they do not know how to talk about yet and others around them may not recognize when this happens. So there are risks, but clearly some support groups can be helpful. So he brings up a good point that support groups can be a good thing, but also it's a high risk behavior because you're engaging with other people who are struggling with similar things.
Speaker 2:And so when Sarah talks about peer to peer support there are some amazing things that are good about that and when we talk about finding other support groups the way mental health and physical health encourages connection and support in other ways. That's amazing. And when we talk about people having access to support at other times, that is great. What we have found though is that but it also has some limitations. So you just need to be aware of what you're getting into and aware of how you participate and who you participate with and what group you're in and how to care for yourself in that context.
Speaker 2:So I hope that makes sense and adds some more information and I will update the blog with this response Thank you so much again Doctor. Barish About the same episode Lisa says oh, power to the plurals. Stronghold describe borderline better than anyone I have ever known or read. A and P is always fronting. EP are fragments.
Speaker 2:I have no inner world. EP have no characteristics. I have always felt EP take over since childhood, but never had vernacular. I have distinct childhood memories of me attempting to articulate this to my caregiver, knee high, looking up, so maybe five. So bravo, system speak.
Speaker 2:You and stronghold nailed it once again. Keep up the good fight. Oh, thanks, Lisa. I'm so glad that you found it helpful. That's that makes me so happy that it helped describe some of what you've been experiencing, especially since borderline is not something that we've talked about a lot on the podcast.
Speaker 2:So I'm really glad that that reached you and that you were able to listen and it was helpful. That's great. Thanks for sharing. Lisa says, here's a trigger warning for the BBC story regarding the legal case of women, Jenny Haynes, with 2,500 alters. She won her case against her father, and he will die in prison.
Speaker 2:I am heartbroken for her younger self, but she was legally able to have a little bit of justice. And then they sent the link to the post. She has a PhD in legal study, and after hearing today's podcast regarding your upcoming interview with Stronghold System, I felt compelled to ask you to reach out to her if possible. Doing so could help the cause, but mainly may allow her to start healing because she sounds to be so alone in that regard. Thanks for all you do and all the hope you give us all.
Speaker 2:I've actually reached out to them since early in the summer before the case happened when I first heard about the story and someone else referred me to her. And they are not interested at this time for anything that's commercial, which means I have to pay them. And we need more podcast supporters to be able to do that kind of thing. Some of the guests we would like to have only appear for a fee, and others do not charge and the guests that we have engaged thus far, have been so gracious to participate but I can't make anyone participate that doesn't want to and her team has declined to participate thus far and her advisors are not allowing interviews at this time because of the appeals process and so I hope that answers your question I would love to talk to them if they ever want to be interviewed and I even reassured them we don't have to talk about the case specifically at all but at this time they have declined that interview in fact it's kind of an interesting process because there are sometimes people who want to be on the podcast just because they want to sell something and that makes me uncomfortable.
Speaker 2:That's different from talking with someone who also has a book or someone who also has a model of therapy that's interesting. Only coming just to market people with DID are gonna sense that kind of inauthenticity pretty quickly. So that's kind of frustrating. And only twice have I sought after someone to interview them and see what their model is like or something where it was so creepy and disturbing that I could not air the interview. That's happened twice and people keep emailing me about have you talked to someone about this style of therapy?
Speaker 2:It's really disturbing you guys. I don't want to air the interview. So I've just left it off and I don't know if that's us being triggered or if it's really an issue but I don't want to air the interview. I was uncomfortable when I talked to them. So we love having guests on the podcast, and we love those who have connections helping us have guests on the podcast, and we're very grateful for that.
Speaker 2:And this is a fantastic suggestion for all kinds of reasons. It's culturally relevant to our community, as well as the advocating that she has done and whatever her story is, but I can't make them tell it if they don't want to. And so thus far, they've not wanted to be on the podcast, and there's nothing I can do about that. But thank you for suggestion, and yes, I've read the story. And you can find the story on Facebook or on BBC if you're interested in hearing it.
Speaker 2:Thanks, Lisa. Tom says, I'm a licensed child therapist from Germany who works primarily with traumatized adolescents. I discovered your podcast two days ago when I was feeling overwhelmed by one of my dissociative patients. So I just typed in dissociative into my podcast app and stumbled upon your episode with the adaption system from Germany. I really enjoyed the episode and will definitely listen to more episodes.
Speaker 2:I was familiar with DID and OSDD through my EMDR training. That's a lot of initials, you guys. If someone's just now tuning in for the first time, they're like, wait, what? That was a lot of initials. But I didn't pay too much attention to it because it's not really a common topic in the German therapist world.
Speaker 2:So I was listening with an open mouth and goosebumps saying to myself, how could I have not paid more attention to this before? But it's not too late, and I'm diving in again and ordered the book. Do you think there's any chance I could connect with the adaption system to discuss OSDD and to approve a situation with therapeutic care here in Germany? I totally get if they wanna stay anonymous, but asking is for free, as we say in Germany. So keep up the good work, and thanks for the connection.
Speaker 2:Hey. Good job, Tom. I appreciate you reaching out. I will totally forward your email to them and let them decide if they wanna respond or not. But this is one of the reasons that I love love love the podcast that people all over the world are getting connected and we're improving care in country after country after country for people with dissociative issues.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for listening and for writing in and I hope you and the adoption system are able to connect as colleagues and be able to improve care for our listeners in Germany. Good job Germany, Ser Gout! Chris says, Sasha, I just wanna start off by thanking you for doing the podcast. I came across it a few weeks ago, and it's really helped us all out. It helps myself feel less alone.
Speaker 2:And I say myself because when we refer to me, it gets confusing because that's the name of one of our parts. Oh, that's funny. That is Trixie. We have been diagnosed with a dissociative disorder, DID not being ruled out at this time. Our therapist doesn't like labels, but it really doesn't matter to us.
Speaker 2:It has been great getting to listen to your podcast. There has been so many things we can relate to. It really has helped me feel less isolated. I truly understand what you mean about not having or trusting friends. Our therapist is great.
Speaker 2:We have been with her for seven years, but only in the last two has everyone in the system started coming forward. The body just turned 44 last week. There were some pretty life changing events going on from what I understand, and I've managed to get us back to work at a part time job. And then one of her parts, I don't wanna say the name, but one of her parts is a licensed social worker. She has a hard time dealing with the fact that she can't work like she used to.
Speaker 2:We are working on co consciousness now. It's not going well. We had an incident last week where this other part and I were fighting. And while we were arguing, a new part, a child, came forward. We ended up being transported to the ER.
Speaker 2:She was there for several hours until the daughter got to the hospital and then the other one fronted again. It wasn't until the next morning that I came back, and it's been a rough week. Typically, I'm forward at work every day. We have check ins daily with everyone in our system and try to take time for everyone so no one gets upset and pushes through. This hasn't happened in a long while.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry I'm rambling, but I've been wanting to email for a long time and have never gotten the nerve. I still think I'm crazy most days with everyone in my head. Reaching out to someone else who might actually understand how it really does feel in here is good, I think, but it's scary. Thank you for the podcast. I'm still trying to get caught up to the current listening as I'm about halfway through.
Speaker 2:It has helped so much. Chris. Oh, thank you, Chris, for writing in and for sharing. I'm so glad you found it and that it's been helpful. Donna says, so this is another friend Donna.
Speaker 2:So now there's two Julie's and two Donna's at least. Hey there, I wanted to mention first of all that I'm still thinking about the women's conference podcast and how terribly difficult of the week was leading up to that and how terribly heavy that must have been to lose a friendship. Of course, I can relate so it hits home. I find it very inspiring how you are finding friends, able to friend people, and be open with at least some. What a gift in itself.
Speaker 2:I was listening to the podcast from the Adaption System from Germany, and she referenced your podcast about lighting in regards to internal communication and signaling when you need help. Can you tell me which podcast that was? And I've never heard of the word I can't say that word. As she explained, and she does not have internal communication, so she uses as a cohost, I can relate to not having communication. I very much appreciated this episode as well as I do so many of them.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much for all you do. I actually don't know what episode that was. It might have been like episode 18 or eight or something about internal worlds or it could have been one of the ones like group lessons. One of those I think it might have been where we talked about the lighting system that we used internally which we actually got the idea from a movie, The Quiet Place. So, I don't know.
Speaker 2:I don't know how to answer that. That's the best I could tell you. Maybe try one of those early episodes, but I think it's eight or 18 either internal worlds or group lessons because it happened when we were in that group with the Chris's. So you could also look on the Chris's page for more information. Barbara shares, I just listened to your nachos podcast.
Speaker 2:Oh, my heart. I identified with this one because as hard as it is to identify with the smaller ones within me, I just wanted to reach out and hug him within you. I like nachos too, barbecue chicken ones especially. If you get a chance and haven't made them before, it's a great treat for children, and the best thing you can do is hide nutrition in them. That's so funny.
Speaker 2:That's so funny. Also, since my kids are grown, the external ones, I have a dog, Sophie, who is very precious to me and a couple of littles. She softens us tremendously. I have to say that though she isn't a real dog, she is a puny one, a miniature Schnauzer. I laughed when I heard that.
Speaker 2:Can you let him know that I have cried too when the Chiefs aren't on? Bi week is awful. Sometimes my sister is able to get Chiefs tickets at Arrowhead given to her, and I believe you live somewhat close to this region. So if you would ever want that part of you to experience a game at Arrowhead and you haven't already, You and your husband should go if it isn't too triggering. It's very loud and rowdy there.
Speaker 2:Andy typically gives me two, and I would love to forward them to you and your husband if you are interested and if she gets some. I don't even know if that part of you is a Chiefs fan. As always, thank you for not only shining a light, but for having it burn brightly. Much respect always. Oh, that's so kind.
Speaker 2:You're right. We totally cannot handle a pro ball game right now. But that's super sweet of you to offer, and that's very kind of you to reach out to him and reassure him. That was a pretty brutal week. It's true.
Speaker 2:It's true. Thank you so much for caring. Lisa also wrote in about the Nacho podcast. It was so heartbreaking that podcast, you guys, that episode. I want y'all to have a dog so badly, but obviously that's not possible to do on the outside with all the other responsibilities you have because pets are a lot of work.
Speaker 2:But having a dog may be just what John Martin needs on the inside. Maybe the therapist could help him get a dog just on the inside like she helped with getting all the lights. I'm glad you updated us listeners and letting us know y'all are good. Keep up the great job on all fronts and thank you for sharing your life with us. Oh Lisa you're so attentive and kind you're always so thoughtful.
Speaker 2:Thanks for writing in again. Kim says oh, Kim. I love you. Hi, Kim. Kim says, I sure hope John Mark feels better soon.
Speaker 2:I just listened to his podcast, and he sounds so distressed. It was so bad. Your other podcast was so full. Sheesy peasy. I hope the kids have a better week adjusting and pat yourselves on the back for handling it all so well.
Speaker 2:Congratulations for making it through and helping your children do the same. Oh my goodness. We're trying so hard, you guys. It's so hard. But we're trying.
Speaker 2:We're trying. Kelly says, I want this message to go to the part that was so sad. I couldn't tell if that was John Mark or a different part because John Mark seems to be a fairly happy child. But regardless, I think you should get a yellow dog and name him Nacho. That's amazing.
Speaker 2:And if you can't, I will get you a nice and soft squishy Build A Bear dog and name it Nacho and send it to you. Oh, Kelly. That's so kind. That's so true. We're gonna have to figure something out.
Speaker 2:That was intense. That was so hard. Everyone's been so supportive. That week was just difficult. Suzanne says, I get the God thing.
Speaker 2:Our healing is very parallel, and I'm grateful for your honesty. I'm sorry you have had friends hurt you because you needed to be a mom and deal with Africa and your own healing. It's lonely. I'm not local, but you're welcome to email me, and maybe sometime I can tell you some of my story without trauma dumping. Thank you for that gift, by the way.
Speaker 2:You're welcome. And Lisa says one more time, remember, you are brave, you are strong, you are good, you are worthy, you are loved. You are doing it, and you are not alone, an NTIS. Oh, is exactly the kind of message we needed. Thank you.
Speaker 2:Another Donna says, hello, Sasha and Emma and everyone. I have so much to say, and I don't even know if this is the right spot to say it in. But I also wanted to reply for so long, and all of the replies seem intelligent and well spoken. It seems intimidating. Everyone is really smart and clever and kind.
Speaker 2:Right? The emails we get, oh my goodness. They're so fantastic. Firstly, I want to say my most sincere thank you for the time and effort and energy that it takes to do the podcast, for the endurance and patience through all of the tornadoes and power outages, snowstorms, and the lost podcast, yet there's such perseverance to continue. I've appreciated each and every one, and I look forward to each and every one.
Speaker 2:Sometimes I swear you're talking right to me. I know it has been said before, but the podcast called I'm okay was really so helpful. It was almost a pillow to fall on. It really was a pillow called hope. I had told my therapist about the podcast and I heard myself say in a shaky voice the word hope and even I was surprised.
Speaker 2:Oh, that makes me cry. That's so precious. I wanted to inquire about the support groups that you talk about on Facebook. I'm on many something support groups that I see you are on, and I've liked many pages. I'm wondering if that's what you're referring to.
Speaker 2:Probably. If you're on dissociative support groups online, like on Facebook, you can just search dissociative identity disorder and see what groups pop up, and then sort of learn the flavor of them after you introduce yourself and see which ones you feel safe and comfortable in. Another question is, have you heard of or what is your opinion on or have you had a guest speaker about IFS, Internal Family Systems Therapy by Richard Schwartz in relation to DID. Actually, yes. We have that book and the workbook, and honestly, the problem is that we are not smart enough.
Speaker 2:Like, it feels really complicated and weighty and a lot to wade through. And, like, there's so many conversations on the page, and we already have conversations in our head. And so it's, like, a lot to sort through. And so we have not tackled it yet and keep avoiding it. I don't know if that means that it's not good or if it means it's so good that we're just not ready for it.
Speaker 2:So we'll see if that's where we go after this other workbook, but we've not been able to do it yet, and we have not asked him for an interview. But that is a great idea. I know people talk about it a lot, and, so it definitely would be something to explore. So if anyone knows doctor Richard Schwartz, I would be glad to interview him on the podcast, And otherwise, I will see if I can find an email or a connection or something to get in touch with him. Because I know it is a popular thing and we totally have the books, we just have not been able to do it yet.
Speaker 2:I could not figure it out at the beginning, but we know so much more now. Maybe it would be more possible. But I know a lot of people do it, and a lot of people love it. So it sounds good good stuff. Good stuff.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for your time. I enjoy all of you so much. Take care, Donna and company. Thanks, Donna. Suzanne says, I listened and I heard that your DID is being revealed in real life.
Speaker 2:I think that is very brave. Are you okay? I thought of saying my given name to you isn't as scary when I think of someone heard it here. That means here is safe for them too. Thank you for making this place safe.
Speaker 2:I'm so glad you keep sharing. It makes me braver. Oh my goodness. That's so powerful. Did you hear what she said?
Speaker 2:She said at first when she would email in, she was scared to share her name because she didn't want to be discovered. But then she realized if someone were listening to this podcast, then they would also need that same kind of safety and hold them safe as well. And that's one thing that I love about this podcast, the way people are connecting with each other and holding that space sacred and supporting one another and helping, like, that is a powerful thing. Like, there's healing in that. There's attunement and there is connection and it opens up the possibility of relationships being safe.
Speaker 2:And that's a huge thing. It's a huge thing. We've been talking about that on podcasts that will be coming up, so you'll be hearing more about that. But I love this. Thank you so much for the email, and that makes me so so happy that you are feeling more safe.
Speaker 2:Our friend Kim says, hey, y'all. I listened to this episode a few times because it was a ton of info, but in a good way, and my brain was doing cartwheels. I love it. Amen, sister. Okay.
Speaker 2:Number one, is neuroplasticity a fancy word for rewiring the brain, or am I oversimplifying? Yes. That's pretty much what it means. You've got it, Kim. Number two, is ACEs a roadmap to or away from dissociation, or is it some kind of tool used on all children to gauge whether they've experienced trauma?
Speaker 2:Okay, so the reason we've not talked about ACEs yet is because Jane Hart and I, my friend Jane from Many Sides of Jane, we had an outline and a plan to talk about ACEs on a podcast together. But for a variety of reasons, mostly because of her children and my children, that has not happened yet. And so we either need to stop talking about ACEs or I need to go ahead and do it by myself so that our listeners understand what we're talking about. But ACEs stands for adverse childhood experiences. And so it's a questionnaire that's very, very short.
Speaker 2:It's like a screening tool that says, like, what of these bad things have happened to you? And it's indicative of trauma. So it's way more in-depth than that, but you are on the right track. That's what it means, and we will be talking about it more in the future, I promise. Because it's absolutely significant and a huge thing in the literature now.
Speaker 2:Number three, the terror of uncertainty. That was amazing and so very affirming for what I experienced with my loves. That terror causes extreme anxiety internally, so it's hard to even see the plane of possibility, no matter how much outsiders are trying to show or explain it to them. That part was so helpful. This is absolutely true.
Speaker 2:What you're saying, Kim, is spot on. Because when someone is afraid and not feeling safe, then it does not matter all the logic you throw at them about how much you tell them it is safe or how much you tell them is everything is okay. We just went through this in a friendship this summer where they're like, we're safe, we're good people, and so why aren't you talking to us or why are you struggling? Well, we were struggling because of our own issues and our own issues in the past and all that we had going on. It was not about them.
Speaker 2:But if they take that personally or don't understand why we're not being responsive to a relationship or a friendship being different, it's just not gonna work because the more you try to force it, the less safe it feels. And so it all kind of backfires the harder you try. Until everything escalates so big that it really isn't safe anymore. And then when they leave, then it hurts and is awful, and they broke their promises just like everyone else. And so they get lumped together with that, and it all becomes trauma and see how, like, it escalates that fast.
Speaker 2:It escalates that fast, and then it's that big, and it's that hard. And so it's heartbreaking. So way to stay present and way to try, and I'm really glad that was helpful. I'm sorry it's such a hard piece. It's really unfair that horrible people who did horrible things way back in the past have so much power in the present.
Speaker 2:And that's why we need healing, and that's why we need to do this hard work even though it's awful and difficult. Because they don't get to have power over us anymore, not even in our relationships. But it's a lot of work, and I'm so, so, so, so sorry it's so hard. That's all the emails I can share today, mostly because the kids are coming home from school, so I have to go and, you know, be all parent alike. And then when they're punks, I can be like, I'm sorry.
Speaker 2:You've got the wrong mom right now. But thanks for listening, thank you for your support and encouragement. I really, really, really appreciate you, and I'm so glad that we all have each other. We're in this together.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening. Your support of the podcast, the workbooks, and the community means so much to us as we try to create something together that's never been done before, not like this. Connection brings healing, and you can join us on the community at www.systemsspeak.com. We'll see you there.